[Vision2020] [Spam] Re: vision 2020 proposal
lfalen
lfalen at turbonet.com
Thu Feb 22 09:08:51 PST 2007
I won't argue with most of your points, but for the teachers not being certified or trained in education the students at Logos seam to do remarkably well.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: "J Ford" privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 20:20:35 -0800
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Spam] Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
> I am NOT after the people of the Christ Church membership to quit the
> church, leave town or even change their beliefs. What I AM after is for the
> "leadership" of said organization to fess up, be REAL men and tell the truth
> about their doings and admit to their mistakes.
>
> Wilson is NOT trained as a pastor much less as a pyschologist. Yet, he
> seems to think he is fit to "counsel" the likes of Sitler and Jamin who are
> serial pedophiles. HE HAS NO BACKGROUND that would allow him to certify the
> "safety" of these creeps being in the midst of the children of Christ
> Church. Yet HE claimed in the 31 Jan 2007 "open forum" that that is exactly
> what he is doing.
>
> Likewise, the "teachers" of Logos and of NSA ARE NOT CERTIFIED or even, in
> most cases, trained in the educational field. And yet they are teaching in
> both "educational institutions."
>
> The financial and ethical goings on with the "leadership" in that church are
> what I object to. And it is the "leadership" of Christ Church who should
> and will, ultimately, be held responsible for any actions or reactions taken
> towards or against Christ Church.
>
> I would hope the membership of the "church" would at least take an honest
> look at what is happening in, for, with Christ Church.
>
>
> J :]
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
> >To: debismith at moscow.com, deco at moscow.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
> >Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:51:24 -0800
> >
> >Wayne,
> >
> >I don't doubt that you and others on the site have certain drive against
> >the church and Dougs' wrongdoings. I won't condone those. I won't also tell
> >you to shut up about the church, for that is your free will. I also
> >understand that the church involved might not suit most standards, myself
> >being one. There has been much news that we have all heard about involving
> >this church.
> >
> >I also don't think they are the anti christ. As well as I don't think you
> >do either. I would assume most here understand that you, J, and others
> >don't want Doug to die or such, rather get you information out about what
> >you disagree with.
> >
> >I believe that ALL reliogions have their bad apples. I'm catholic and I
> >couldn't even begin to defend some of our priests. Just as any reliogion.
> >And I'll give it to you, Doug and the CC are very devoted to their beliefs,
> >which they are entitled to.
> >
> >Trying to beat the answers into us non CC hating group is not the answer.
> >Trying to get your point across and pushing the rest aside will do little
> >for your cause. If you feel it is your obligation to infome us non
> >believers of your beliefs, I would think you would do so in a informative
> >way, not a blah blah blah manter.
> >
> >The more and more you push the more vision members leave and the more your
> >point loses intrest.
> >
> >Facts remain: CC has not been prosicuted. They have had many question
> >marks. But most of the church are law abiding citizens, as well as they
> >should. Until that changes I choose not to carry into this agenda, as well
> >as I hope that you would choose to respect those that have numerously
> >attempted to take your beleifs/agenda and take them to your site.
> >
> >Matt
> >
> >
> >>From: <debismith at moscow.com>
> >>To: <deco at moscow.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
> >>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:23:39 GMT
> >>
> >>Thank you, Wayne. That is exactly the case!
> >>Debi R-S
> >>
> >>
> >> > Debbie writes:
> >> >
> >> > "I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ
> >> > church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one to
> >>its
> >> > origins of discussing Moscow issues."
> >> >
> >> > Some people on this forum see some of the actions of Christ Church as a
> >> > Moscow issues: zoning, sexual abuse, spousal abuse, racism, sexism,
> >> > homophobia, theocracy, alleged evading of capital gains taxes,
> >> > misleading or lying at public hearings, effects of on recruitment both
> >> > academic and athletic at the UI, organizational dishonesty, and
> >>cultism.
> >> > Some people on this forum also see it as a county-wide forum, not just
> >> > the exclusive domain of certain Moscow users.
> >> >
> >> > Some older people on this forum, whose opinion apparently really
> >>doesn't
> >> > count, still remember learning about "Eternal vigilance is the price of
> >> > liberty." Some old people on the forum see those that ignore this bit
> >> > of Jeffersonian wisdom as enablers. For these ignorers/enablers, if
> >>the
> >> > Sitler and Wight sexual predator cases, the ways they were handled, and
> >> > their nuances and ramifications for the community did not act as a
> >> > wake-up call, then probably nothing will.
> >> >
> >> > Some old people have not only read about, but have observed firsthand
> >> > the effects of cultism on individuals and communities in other places,
> >> > hence are more concerned. Unlike Misters Decker, Becker, et al, some
> >> > people believe that the some of the outré belief-inspired actions of
> >> > the cult have damaged and continue to damage the community. Some are
> >> > concerned about the very active recruitment to the community of others
> >> > by Christ Church who share their outré beliefs and would perpetuate
> >> > the damaging actions by Christ Church which are promulgated by such
> >> > beliefs.
> >> >
> >> > For example, a letter to the Daily News detailing the cruel and harmful
> >> > effects on their child by Douglas Wilson's direct and indirect actions
> >> > with respect to gays is a chilling reminder of the effects of
> >> > homophobia. [I can repost this letter should some of you be unfamiliar
> >> > with it.] Some people find these kinds of discriminatory/hate driven
> >> > actions disturbing, wish to live in a community where this kind of
> >> > discrimination is greatly diminished, and therefore wish to promote a
> >> > community discussion on this and related issues. The same can said be
> >> > for the issues raised by the recent reposting of the Logos School's
> >> > complete original announcement of the banning of women from serving on
> >> > the school's board of directors. The same can be said of Wilson's
> >> > delusional views on antebellum slavery.
> >> >
> >> > Wilson has a complete right to express and to argue for his views,
> >> > however badly they reflect on the community in the outside world. What
> >> > would reflect even worse for Moscow, in my opinion, is if such views
> >> > were not rigorously and openly opposed.
> >> >
> >> > Some people do not think it proper to discuss others' religious
> >>beliefs.
> >> > The fact is that strongly held religious beliefs prompt actions which
> >> > have community impact, sometimes these impacts are toxic and harmful to
> >> > the general community health, welfare, and pursuit of happiness. To
> >> > these people who think religious discussions are not proper, I urge you
> >> > to read about the motives of the first European colonists in our
> >> > country, and whose European experiences gave birth to our Constitution.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Debbie further writes:
> >> >
> >> > "Your Anti-Christ Church rhetoric and hate has suffocated an otherwise
> >> > helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum."
> >> >
> >> > Perhaps I am too old to see it otherwise, but Vision 2020 is still a
> >> > helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum. There have been many
> >> > local issues discussed. I know for a fact that some of the opinions
> >> > offered here have influenced officials of both city and county
> >> > government as well as some other organizations.
> >> >
> >> > There is no doubt a lot of writing about Christ Church and related
> >> > issues on V 2020 for reasons given above. There are also a lot of
> >> > writings about things that are not purely city issues; some of these
> >> > issues are national and global in size, but still in the long run the
> >> > subjects of these issues will affect Moscow.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Repeating what Debbie wrote:
> >> >
> >> > "I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ
> >> > church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one to
> >>its
> >> > origins of discussing Moscow issues."
> >> >
> >> > I hope that even critics of those that write about Christ Church will
> >> > find the phrase "your OWN" offensive. Is there something that we do
> >>not
> >> > know? Are there some individuals who "own" Vision 2020, and therefore
> >> > have the right to tell those of us who are not among the "owners" what
> >> > the "real" Moscow issues are, and consequently what to write about?
> >> >
> >> > As has been mentioned many times before, once an unmoderated public
> >> > forum has been opened, only the very naive would expect it to be
> >> > confined topic-wise or rhetoric-wise. Public discourse bears fruit, in
> >> > part, because of this wide diversity. As a member of a number of
> >> > forums, I find that Vision 2020 is superior in at least two ways: It
> >> > has very little problems with spam, and it has encouraged a great
> >> > diversity of opinions on issues and of styles of communication, some of
> >> > which have promoted constructive change in the community.
> >> >
> >> > With respect to the diversity of topics and rhetoric, some people are
> >> > not comfortable with this degree of freedom of expression. For such
> >> > people, the one or two seconds it takes to use the delete key remains a
> >> > reasonable option and does not deter the rest of us from reading (or
> >> > not) what others freely choose to post. For others that are
> >>exasperated
> >> > by or otherwise unable to handle the fruits of freedom of expression,
> >> > there are ways of blocking a particular poster. I have only blocked
> >>one
> >> > person. It is not that I wish to exclude his opinions, but I am tired
> >> > of getting his offline poison pen notes. Blocking him provides an
> >> > option for now to pursuing criminal complaints and/or civil actions.
> >> >
> >> > If it is permitted, I'll tell you what bothers me about certain posts:
> >> > Some posters do not believe that it necessary to support with
> >> > information and argument the opinions they express. Of course they are
> >> > free to do this, but it does not reflect well on themselves nor the
> >> > positions they espouse.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Wayne A. Fox
> >> > 1009 Karen Lane
> >> > PO Box 9421
> >> > Moscow, ID 83843
> >> >
> >> > (208) 882-7975
> >> > waf at moscow.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Debbie Gray" <graylex at yahoo.com>
> >> > To: "kerry becker" <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com>
> >> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:11 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Exactly. Christ Church isn't alone it its
> >> > > interpretations of the bible. I grew up in a
> >> > > fundamentalist bible-thumping born-again household and
> >> > > heard this same stuff. I understand that people oppose
> >> > > these ideas and find them harmful. I don't understand
> >> > > the hate focused on one group. I don't agree with most
> >> > > of the things they teach but I don't agree with the
> >> > > catholics (also anti-gay, anti-abortion, etc etc), the
> >> > > LDS Church (also wanting to keep women in their
> >> > > 'traditional role'); the Lutherans, the Methodists and
> >> > > any other flavor of "christian" belief. Where is the
> >> > > outcry that women can't be Elders in the LDS Church?
> >> > > Where's our female pope? Look at those Catholic
> >> > > priests molesting children left and right!
> >> > >
> >> > > I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN
> >> > > anti-christ church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever
> >> > > LISTSERV and leave this one to its origins of
> >> > > discussing Moscow issues. Your Anti-Christ Church
> >> > > rhetoric and hate has suffocated an otherwise helpful,
> >> > > infornative, interesting, lively forum. Does anyone
> >> > > remember PRE-Tom Hansen/Jackie Woolf, etc? I do!!!
> >> > >
> >> > > Debbie Gray
> >> > > p.s. Tom, I am at home on my home computer (purchased
> >> > > with wages from the UI), do you want my home address?
> >> > > Phone #? I hope you like my IP address... i like how
> >> > > the numbers make such a random pattern. Do i need to
> >> > > give a permission slip from my spouse or kids that I
> >> > > am not misusing my personal time?
> >> > >
> >> > > --- kerry becker <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > ---------------------------------
> >> > >
> >> > > The irony is that this stuff happens in many churches.
> >> > > You know what kind of heyday we could have if we had
> >> > > a mole like J Ford in the mormon church? Think about
> >> > > it. Now there's some good stuff. Maybe we could
> >> > > start an "Outing Churches in Moscow" blog? : )
> >> > >
> >> > > But seriously, there really ISNT a fine line between
> >> > > "dialogue" and "obsession." It's clear as day which
> >> > > is which and I believe that's what most are trying to
> >> > > eliminate in these postings.
> >> > >
> >> > > Reminds me of a quote;
> >> > >
> >> > > "Great minds talk about great ideas; average minds
> >> > > talk about average ideas; small minds talk about other
> >> > > people.--Anonymous
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>_________________________________________________________________________>
> >> ___________
> >> > > Get your own web address.
> >> > > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
> >> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > =========================> =========================> =====
> >> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > >
> >> > =========================> =========================> =====
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------
> >>This message was sent by First Step Internet.
> >> http://www.fsr.com/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >>=======================================================
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> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>=======================================================
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline
> >
>
>
> >=======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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