[Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: Italy sides with terrorists

[Tony]

Paul,I appreciate your cordial and thoughtful response with regard to the kidnapping of terrorists.  I guess I just don't share your faith in the U.N. or feel comfortable relying on the assistance of foreign governments to facilitate bringing these killers to justice.

As far as bombing Moscow to get one individual terrorist is concerned, no such thing would be necessary.  We could simply take a page from the book of the illustrious Vladimir Putin, and poison the rascal.

Best,  -T
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Rumelhart 
  To: vision2020 at moscow.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: Italy sides with terrorists


  Tony,

  I would say that kidnapping a private citizen on foreign soil is an act of aggression, and shows hostile intent to the state involved.  At the very least, it shows that we don't respect that country's sovereignty.  In this case it wasn't invasion because it wasn't carried out by our troops, only our government operatives.  If harm against a private citizen on foreign soil is not a form of aggression worthy of fighting back against, then why have a military at all?

  What I would like you to understand is that there is a huge gulf between the idea of an aggressive, guilty, terrorist with blood on his hands and someone who is only suspected of being involved with a terrorist organization.  The difference is that the suspected terrorist might actually be innocent.  Unfortunately, the only way they find that out is after they have moved him to an illegal torture camp on foreign soil and after they have tortured him enough to feel assured of his innocence.  Then what do they do?  They can't let him go, or he'll blab about their illegal torture camp.  Isn't there something wrong with this picture?

  The main difference, I think, between our viewpoints is that I think that we should be responding to this crisis in such a way that we don't tread on the civil liberties of our own citizens, or of those of other countries.  Our rights are more important than the ease with which we can stop terrorism.  How far do you take that idea, anyway?  If it's suspected that there is a lone terrorist in Moscow, should the government feel free to bomb us back to the stone age just to be sure that one suspected terrorist is dead?  It's a natural progression from where we were a few years ago to that sort of scenario.

  If we had not attacked Iraq, then I would say that we should be working with foreign governments to track down and arrest terrorists with the support of the military if needed.  That doesn't mean that we should be invading foreign countries on our own initiative.  We should be working with the UN to eradicate terrorists on foreign soil.  Our intelligence agencies should be working with those of other countries to track them down.

  Paul

  Tony wrote: 
    Well Andreas, your question presumes that a nation harboring an assumed terrorist could be characterized as an ally.  We do tend to use such terms somewhat loosely as far as our relationships with Italy and Germany.

    And Paul, I would question the use of the term "invasion" to describe a presence with NO HOSTILE INTENT toward the state it entered.  A presence which has as its sole intent, the apprehension and bringing to justice of a lone individual.  If another state had highly compelling evidence that a citizen or visitor in America were guilty of horrendous crimes, and we refused to subject them to prosecution, further refusing to extradite, it would ill behoove us to complain were that state to come after their tormenter themselves.

    Gentleman, try to understand that you cannot defeat a sociopathic beast of an enemy by employing the tactics of a Sunday School teacher.

    Later on,  -T
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Paul Rumelhart 
      To: vision2020 at moscow.com 
      Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 3:48 PM
      Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Italy sides with terrorists


      Andreas Schou wrote: 
On 2/18/07, Tony <tonytime at clearwire.net> wrote:
  Ellen, I think that our government has not only the right, but the duty to
kidnap those who it strongly suspects are guilty of terrorism when said
suspects are being harbored and thus enabled, by a foreign power.
    
We have the obligation to violate the laws of our allies?

-- ACS
  
      And wouldn't the foreign power in question have the right to call the presence of foreign troops on it's soil in the midst of a kidnapping an invasion?

      We can't be prideful of our sovereignty if we don't respect that right in other nation states.

      Paul



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