[Vision2020] and speaking of religion in public places

[Carl Westberg]

Thanks for letting us know what YOU believe, Donovan.  Carl Westberg Jr.


>From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>To: nickgier at adelphia.net, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] and speaking of religion in public places
>Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 12:53:29 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Nick Gier and his cronies just don't understand what Sali is saying.
>
>   The principles of our Constitution are etched from the rock of 
>Christianity. You cannot remove the rock without removing its authority. 
>The Constitution is meaningless if it doesn't have Christianity as a bases 
>of its authority, derived only because of Christianity.
>
>   Who says all men are equal? Who says you have unalienable rights? Who 
>says you have the right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom 
>from unfair trial?
>
>   Those rights are not granted to men by men, they are granted to men by 
>God, the Christian God. And that is what gives the US Constitution its 
>authority, its greatness, and truthfulness. Otherwise, the Constitution was 
>written, and the rights granted us within, are not real rights, or moral 
>principles of God's justice, but in fact, just something a bunch fat 
>balding rich guys wearing white wigs came up with on a hot sweaty day in 
>July at the turn of the 18th century hiding from the British authorities.
>
>   I believe certain rights are given to us by God, and that many of those 
>rights are engraved into the Constitution. If you don't believe this too, 
>then the only thing giving the Constitution, and your rights are men, men 
>who decide arbitrarily what rights you have and don't have at any time or 
>place. It makes the Constitution a document that is enforceable only by the 
>threat of a gun and the will of the powerful men that yield it.
>
>   Best,
>
>   Donovan
>
>
>nickgier at adelphia.net wrote:
>   Good Morning Visionaries:
>
>Bill Sali just doesn't learn. He doesn't care about accuracy, because he's 
>still spouting the nonsense about abortion and breast cancer.
>
>Here is my response to Sali's rant in the Lewiston paper this morning. I'll 
>post it on his DC website and mark once again "please answer," but I don't 
>expect one because he has yet to answer a previous one about Muslim 
>democracies.
>
>I would like to join Sean in denouncing the quotation from Washington as 
>false and referring readers to my published essay "Religious Liberalism and 
>the Founding Fathers" at www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/
>foundfathers.htm.
>
>I would also like for Sali to explain to us how basic Christian principles 
>differ in any substantial way from Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist, or Hindu 
>principles. He should be warned that pronouncements from the extremists of 
>these faiths will be not be recognized by their coreligionists.
>
>When John Adams spoke of the principles of Christianity, he, just as did 
>many of his contemporaries, meant basic moral principles. In a letter to 
>Jefferson in 1813, he states: "Yet I believe all the honest men among you 
>are Christians, in my sense of the word." Both he and Jefferson rejected 
>religious conservatives such as Sali and denied the Trinity and the deity 
>of Christ.
>
>Sali is also doing a selective reading of Ben Franklin. He also rejected 
>the deity of Christ and the Trinity and stopped going to church because of 
>Sali-type preachers.
>
>In debates about the Pennsylvania Constitution of 1776, Franklin objected 
>to the specific biblical references in the following statement: office 
>holders were required to "acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New 
>Testament to be given by divine inspiration." Franklin failed to convince 
>delegates that this would exclude Jews and Muslims.
>
>Please read my essay "Tolerance for Islam in the Early American Republic" 
>at www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/
>AmericaIslam.htm for some striking proclamations about the acceptance of 
>Muslims in America, even as the Muslim Barbary pirates=terrorists were 
>capturing our citizens.
>
>These early Americans would be shocked at Sali's ignorance and intolerance.
>
>Nick Gier
>
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>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
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>                http://www.fsr.net
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