[Vision2020] [] crossing the line

Fri May 19 21:20:55 PDT 2006

DJA,

Ok, thanks. Sorry for getting the spelling wrong; I tried to double check
the spelling but all I could find was DJA! Anyhow, I'm not sure which of my
claims you think are not factual.  Which do you contest?

That most of my time enjoying charitable discourse with folks on Vision 2020
happened before I became a public critic of Doug Wilson? 

That at first, nobody knew I was a Christian?  

That then, everyone knew I was a Christian but not a kirker?  

That then everyone knew that I was a Christian and a kirker when I was
forced to defend Doug Wilson and Christ Church? 

That through all three stages I was able to enjoy rational and charitable
discussions with many on Vision 2020?  

That no doubt some local conservative Christians feel no different than many
'liberals' here on this list about your quote below?   [Elders Kick Pooh
Out]

That given all this, I'm not sure what your argument could be here?  

That I hope you would be willing to respond a bit more to my note to you?  

I guess I'm not sure which of the claims here you would dispute.  I thought
they all would have been fairly uncontested.  Please help me out.

Thanks

Michael

Michael,

No, I am disputing your claims as being factual. 

Best Regards,

_DJA

PS, If you cannot spell my name, you can just use the letter DJA.

Michael <metzler at moscow.com> wrote: 

Donavan,

I'm not sure I understand your point.  Are you disputing the factual claims
I made?

Michael

If you say so Michael. 

_DJA

Michael <metzler at moscow.com> wrote: 

Donavan,

Most of my time enjoying charitable discourse with folks on Vision 2020
happened before I became a public critic of Doug Wilson.  First, nobody knew
I was a Christian.  Then, everyone knew I was a Christian but not a kirker.
Then everyone knew that I was a Christian and a kirker when I was forced to
defend Doug Wilson and Christ Church.  Through all three stages I was able
to enjoy rational and charitable discussions with many on Vision 2020.  And
no doubt some local conservative Christians feel no different than many
'liberals' here on this list about your quote below.  Given all this, I'm
not sure what your argument could be here.  Feel free to further explain.  I
hope you would be willing to respond a bit more to my note to you.

Thanks

Michael Metzler 

Michael,

"The Elders of Christ Church Kick Pooh Out"

Liberals love you. 

Best Regards,

_DJA

Michael <metzler at moscow.com> wrote: 

Donavan Writes:

The Liberal rules on Vision 2020 are simple and fair. If a liberal expresses
an opinion, and attacks you or a member of your family, that is fine. If you
attack back, respond, or explain yourself, you are resorting to mudslinging
and personal attacks. That is the way Vision2020 works now, it is the way it
has worked in the past, and it is the way it will work in the future. . .
.Vision 2020 is now just a pointless listserve for people with big mouths
and little brains to express disgust in others that differ from them. Too
bad, it could have been something special. Now it is just the Ghetto of the
Palouse.

Me:

Donavan, I wish you would respond to those you disagree with in a more
dignified, charitable, and argumentative way.  There are 'liberals' that
post to this list that are capable of doing this, and they have done so many
enjoyable times over.  Considering that I am just as 'conservative' as you,
if not more so, and yet entirely disagree with your assertions above, I
would think that they require an argument or some charitably placed
supportive evidence.  I really am hoping that this list doesn't entirely
implode before I get a chance to enjoy the discussions here again, and so
I'm going to ask you Donovan, given your profession of Christianity, to help
lead the way; please respond to your opponents with disciplined kindness. In
so far as you want to assert what you have above, I will challenge the
veracity of your claims.  I do not believe this is asking much, and I hope
you don't take it as my asking much; as you know, we are commanded to do
this by the incarnate God to whom you claim allegiance.  I did not want to
write a post like this, but I'm not sure how I could continue my following
of this list without expressing this worry and exhortation. I think you have
some good points that should be heard, but they often get covered up by
unnecessary rhetoric and personal attacks. If this is done to you, then turn
a cheek or something.  Thank you. 

Along these same lines, you might find the comments below applicable; I'm
pasted them from a recent entry on my own Blog.

Thanks

Michael

www.poohsthink.com <http://www.poohsthink.com/>  

You can see Wilson's typical offensive move against the "intoleristas"
<http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp?Action=Anchor&CategoryID=1&BlogID=2321>
here. Wilson's dishonesty in dealing with Vision 2020 and the "intoleristas"
has been pointed out here in the Wood a number of times already. In fact, it
was my own "taking a peek" at this Vision 2020 stuff that helped open my own
eyes to what kind of stuff Wilson fed us kirkers on a weekly basis. It has
been standard practice for Wilson to find the most poorly reasoned or prima
facie false statements uttered in the last month out of hundreds of posts
(from the standpoint of his followers anyway) and display it on his blog for
annihilation. The last time he did this, he claimed that what he was
presenting was the typical sort of argument one would find on Vision 2020,
when in fact, which Wilson knew, it was the most untypical.

For those of you who do not follow Vision 2020 carefully, let me give you
some basic facts about our little situation here in Moscow. Many of the
common posters to Vision 2020 have intellectual and argumentative abilities
that compare to, and in some ways, surpass, that of Wilson's. Some of them
are highly rigorous, others more passionate, and others more witty. When up
against Wilson one on one, I'm sure they would have an interesting fight.
But what of Jones? Jones got off Vision 2020 the day I got on, and what he
was doing there was silly and offensive; it was certainly no real match for
the various passionate intellects that frequent there. But a balanced
analysis would not compare Wilson and Jones to Vision 2020 posters in the
first place. Not only are Vision 2020 guys and gals mere "laymen" in
contrast to the fearless national leaders at Anselm House, they have all as
a group been ridiculed consistently and confidently by Wilson and other
kirkers as blind, venomous idiots who can do nothing but band together in
secret to cook up the next evil and irrational plot against Doug Wilson.

Well, have I mentioned anything yet about Doug Wilson being a liar? Here is
a perfect example of his deceit, deceit that I was lulled by for a total of
three years before joining the Vision 2020 group myself. Vision 2020 is
primarily composed of all sorts of people, including conservatives,
liberals, secularists, agnostics, theists, conservative Christians, liberal
Christians, new Christians, old Christians, atheists, theists, deists,
veterans, lawyers, professors, writers, retired corporate folks, and so on
and so forth. In other words, it is composed of our local Moscow neighbors.
Only the growing "Village" paranoia that Wilson is seeking to generate
causes kirkers and Wilson's conservative sidekick Dale Courtney to
categorize and demonize "Venom2020" the way they do.

So to continue our comparison in a more balanced way, what of the Greyfriar
graduates who post on Vision 2020? or Mr. Farris? or what of the purple
flying-clown-elephant Deacon James? Any skim of Vision 2020 makes it clear
that some of the most non-argumentative, irrational, smug, arrogant,
unhelpful posts come directly out from the educated elite of the Kirk -
although I've noticed a slight change of late. Period; this is simply a
fact. One of the last Kirker posts to me on Vision 2020 had as its primary
thesis that I had failed to spell Greyfriars correctly. Another irrationally
hurled accusations at me, about 10 in three paragraphs in fact - and this is
to a fellow kirker! The question at this point folks, is not whether or not
the kirkers on Vision 2020 are displaying fine Christian culture - they most
certainly aren't by any normal person's definition of "Christian" or
"culture." The question is rather what social group here in Moscow, based on
the thin society of Vision 2020, truly deserves the label of "venom" and
"intolerista." Furthermore, and this makes Wilson's last attack against the
"intoleristas" today all the more interesting, there has been a nice barrage
of non-kirker conservatives, conservative Christians in fact, seen on Vision
2020. And it looks like they are currently trying to win the venom and
intolerista award.

When I joined the discussion at Vision 2020 we began having delightful
discussions; I had rational and patient listening ears waiting for me,
albeit backed with passionate and argumentative fingertips. I was able to
hash out my defense of my own highly offensive view of things till the cows
came home. But unfortunately, the typical North Idaho community member does
not take much stock in passionate religious and political debate; Wilson
will no doubt play up on this, as will less daring local journalists and
politicians. One of the problems many folks will have with Vision 2020,
whether they are in or outside the Kirk, is the passionate and argumentative
persistence they will find there. Don't let the newspapers fool you; some
journalists just pee in their pants when argumentatively challenged about
their daddy's religion. For some, politics and religion are as hush hush as
their adultery with the woman next door. Who is it that despised Socrates?
Who killed both him and Jesus? It was both the politician and the local
priest, and may we never forget it.

When ever Dale is finished hiding behind his own Ultra-conserv blog, perhaps
he can join us on Vision 2020 again - it was after all his own moral
weakness that forced him to leave in the first place.

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