[Vision2020] Fw: The Keely Mix/Doug Wilson Debate

Fri Jul 14 09:33:14 PDT 2006

----- Original Message ----- 
From: rvrcowboy 
To: Sunil Ramalingam 
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Keely Mix/Doug Wilson Debate

Sunil,

I will attempt to respond to your post, given the limited time I have right now.  It's honey-do day at my house and I am trying to prepare for a clean up float trip on the Clearwater River tomorrow.

"We have adopted the Geneva Conventions, and are obligated to follow them.  It is irrelevant if those we fight have done so."  

I disagree with you on this point.  While it is true we have adopted the Geneva Conventions I do not believe we are obligated to follow them when those we are fighting have not done so.  That would be tantamount to two football teams playing and one has agreed to follow the rules and the other totally rejects all rules.  It would be a slaughter.  I do believe we should be as civil as possible and that we should not engage in torture.  However, I do not define torture as sleep deprivation, water boarding, etc.  There is a difference between humane interrogation techniques and torture.

"We have our rules and we should follow them."

The Geneva Convention is not a list of "our" rules.  It is an agreement between participating nations on humane treatment of legally represented particpants from those nations.  Again, to play by any rules when one side has no rules at all is ridiculous.  This war is not aginst any participating nation, protected under the convention.  It is against radical, criminal, millitant terrorists who owe alligence to no one and nothing but their own radical cause.  In such a case, I agree, we should be humane but no one should expect us to sacrifice lives just to play by non-existent rules.

"If we are there to  establish democracy, we do not further our stated cause by ignoring the  rules we have adopted."

Again, we have not adopted, or agreed to, any rules between ourselves and the criminal, militants, representing no country, we are engaged with.  I don't know where you would get such a crazy idea.  

"It only demonstrates that our political process can be meaningless, and that lesson is clear to those who suffer when we deviate  from our rules and laws."

What about those who suffer because the other side has rejected any rules at all?  Those would be our soldiers who face beheadding and torture if captured, along with others, even civilians.  Again, we are under no obligation to follow any rules, laws or agreements between nations when we are fighting criminals from no nation.

"If we are trying to establish a democracy, then we need to win hearts and 
minds through the moral superiority of our conduct."

I believe those who would live under a democracy would rather see us win this war because we did what was necessary than lose it because we played by some set of non-existent rules.  Partly because they will likely be killed if we fail.  I think they are more worried about loosing their lives than the "moral superiority of our conduct."   Their futures depend on reality, not some pretty sounding, politically correct buzzwords.

"Do you think the Administration's embrace of torture and running secret prisons enhances our moral standing anywhere?"

I have seen no evidence of our Administration embracing the use of torture.  As for secret prisons, this is war and it is most likely a good thing to hold some high-level prisoners where they can not be easily found and accessed.  I doubt you would find much dissent with this in the majority of the population.

"Our government is supposed to answer to us; our enemies do not, and I have no expectation of that."

Ultimately, our government always answers to the people, at the ballot box, which is where you should take up your gripes.

"But I have the right and responsibility to expect my government to comply with our laws."

That may be so but first you have to PROVE the government has broken any laws they were even legally bound to obey.  So far as I can tell, they haven't.  Accusations and rhetoric do not a criminal make.  Public opinion will ultimately decide the issue at the ballot box, where it should be decided.

I hope I have answered to your satisfaction.  It is obvious we have a difference of opinion on the issues.  So be it.  I am out of time, the dish water is getting cold.

Have a wonderful day,

Dick S.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Keely Mix/Doug Wilson Debate

> Dick,
> 
> I'll leave Nick to capably defend his position, but I'll tell you why I 
> think we need to look at what WE do.
> 
> We have adopted the Geneva Conventions, and are obligated to follow them.  
> It is irrelevant if those we fight have done so.  We have our rules and we 
> should follow them.
> 
> We now claim to be in Iraq to establish democracy.  I myself think that 
> claim is a crock, but that too is irrelevant right now.  If we are there to 
> establish democracy, we do not further our stated cause by ignoring the 
> rules we have adopted.  It only demonstrates that our political process can 
> be meaningless, and that lesson is clear to those who suffer when we deviate 
> from our rules and laws.
> 
> If we are trying to establish a democracy, then we need to win hearts and 
> minds through the moral superiority of our conduct.  > 
> Our government is supposed to answer to us; our enemies do not, and I have 
> no expectation of that.  But I have the right and responsibility to expect 
> my government to comply with our laws.
> 
> Sunil
> 
> 
> >From: "rvrcowboy" <rvrcowboy at clearwire.net>
> >To: "Vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, <nickgier at adelphia.net>
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Keely Mix/Doug Wilson Debate
> >Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 05:36:52 -0700
> >
> >A direct quote from Nick Gier:  "I'm busy writing my commentary on the U.S.
> >and Torture (Preliminary title "Beheadings, Hoodings, and Water Boarding:
> >CIA Torture from Vietnam to Gitmo"),......."
> >
> >Nick,
> >
> >I do not understand your passionate desire to constantly denounce our
> >troops, our military and our country, in favor of the tactics of 
> >terrorists.
> >We all understand that, in a time of war and under pressure, people
> >sometimes do things they would not normally do.  We also understand the 
> >fact
> >that, in the case of our soldiers and military, these times are more rare
> >than the standard of actions.
> >
> >In a hypothetical scenerio, if you were a captured combatant; Would you
> >prefer to be a prisoner of war, held captive by any of the Coalition 
> >forces,
> >or, would you prefer to be a prisoner of the extremist factions, operating
> >under no rules of engagement and no rules what-so-ever concerning the
> >treatment of prisoners?  Is your commentary going to include some exposure
> >of the heinous tactics commonly employed by other side, or, are you only
> >interested in exposing the actions of the few, serving our own country, who
> >have made an error?
> >
> >I am not questioning your right to your own opinions as to the war on
> >terrorism we presently find ourselves engaged in.  I just do not understand
> >how you justify your endless criticisms of the very country that affords 
> >you
> >the freedom of dissent.  After all, as a university professor, you have
> >enjoyed the privileges of being an employee of the very government you
> >appear to be unable to tolerate.  Can you honestly say you attitude would
> >not be different if Bill Clinton or John Kerry were President, as opposed 
> >to
> >George W. Bush?  Under the same circumstances, do you really believe their
> >options would be any different?
> >
> >I would like to take the opportunity to apologize to you for some of my 
> >past
> >actions of calling you names and condeming you for have a different 
> >opinion,
> >from my own.  I would also like to assure you that I am asking these
> >questions in ernest and not to challenge your right to your opinions.  It 
> >is
> >just difficult for me to understand why you appear to support the enemies 
> >of
> >our country more than our own troops and your own country.
> >
> >Looking forward to your reply and hoping you will not make it too long and
> >too far over my head for me to understand.  :)
> >
> >Have a wonderful day,
> >
> >Dick S.
> 
> 
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