[Vision2020] Cindy was invited
Phil Nisbet
pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com
Fri Feb 3 00:11:59 PST 2006
Sunil
A military reservation is definitely public property, yet if I chose to
protest on military property, I can be asked to leave and charged with
trespass if I fail to leave. The actions we are discussing are not about
1st Amendment rights. Cindy, regardless of her anti-Semitic statements and
affiliations, has free speech at her beck and call. What she does not have
is the right to enter places with restrictions for which her actions will be
a trespass and claim that her trespass is not an illegal act because she is
engaged in political speech.
I do not have the right to barge into the Oval Office and disrupt the
actions of government because I want to give Bush a piece of my mind. I do
not have the right to barge into a Congressman's office to do the same
thing. I can make my statement, but the place of my statement is
restricted.
If it were not, are you willing to defend me and give me a guarantee that I
will not serve a day in Jail if I go into the council chamber on the next
city council meeting and take off all my clothes? You know what the result
of that would be, I would be jailed for indecent exposure, even if my point
was that the law requiring clothing was wrong and the act of taking off my
clothing was an expression of my support for removal of the rule requiring
clothing in public places.
Not allowing me to take off my clothes as a matter of free speech is surely
a restriction of my communication of ideas, but I do not think that the
court is going to buy that that trumps the laws involving public conduct and
required attire.
Phil Nisbet
>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Cindy was invited
>Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:01:05 -0800
>
>
>
>
>Phil,
>
>I'm just going to focus primarily on the First Amendment aspect of this
>discussion, with the exception of the following snide comment:
>
>At least you're not calling her a pimp.
>
>OK, back on track. Sheehan did not engage in any equivalent of yelling
>'Fire' in a crowded theater. She made a political statement. She engaged
>in political speech. And state actors arrested her for it. She has the
>right to engage in that speech, and that right was violated by the state.
>
>You don't have the right to go down to Fox Broadcasting and demand the
>right to a half-hour speech against the Iraq war, which, if monkeys make a
>strange and unique exit from your body, you might want to. (Should you
>want to make a half-hour speech in favor of the war, they may well grant
>your wish, but that's their business.) But should you wish to buy time to
>launch the diatribe of your choice, the government will be violating your
>First Amendment right should they prevent you from doing so.
>
>It's your right not to like Sheehan or agree with her. While I don't
>concede your claim that she's anti-semitic, that's a distraction. Even if
>she were, it would not change my position that she should not have been
>either ejected or arrested for engaging in free speech.
>
>Sunil
>
><< attach3 >>
>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>To: pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com
>CC: vision2020 at mosocw.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Cindy was invited
>Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:56:09 -0800
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>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>To: pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com
>Cc: vision2020 at mosocw.com
>Bcc: Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Cindy was invited
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>
>Phil,
>
>I'm just going to focus primarily on the First Amendment aspect of this
>discussion, with the exception of the following snide comment:
>
>At least you're not calling her a pimp.
>
>OK, back on track. Sheehan did not engage in any equivalent of yelling
>'Fire' in a crowded theater. She made a political statement. She engaged
>in political speech. And state actors arrested her for it. She has the
>right to engage in that speech, and that right was violated by the state.
>
>You don't have the right to go down to Fox Broadcasting and demand the
>right to a half-hour speech against the Iraq war, which, if monkeys make a
>strange and unique exit from your body, you might want to. (Should you
>want to make a half-hour speech in favor of the war, they may well grant
>your wish, but that's their business.) But should you wish to buy time to
>launch the diatribe of your choice, the government will be violating your
>First Amendment right should they prevent you from doing so.
>
>It's your right not to like Sheehan or agree with her. While I don't
>concede your claim that she's anti-semitic, that's a distraction. Even if
>she were, it would not change my position that she should not have been
>either ejected or arrested for engaging in free speech.
>
>Sunil
>
>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>CC: vision2020 at mosocw.com
>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Cindy was invited
>>Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:51:38 -0800
>>
>>Sunil
>>
>>The statement with regard to Sjeehan was neither inaccurate notgratuitous.
>> She is a flaming anti-Semite who has drawn support form the largest
>>neo-Nazi organization currently in existance in the US. Ever see her ask
>>that the Neo-Nazi supporters of her cause not show up in Crawford? Ever
>>hear her say that her son died for Israel? How about her 'dirty Jews'
>>commentaries?
>>
>>Susan Estrich is hardly an Iraq War supporter and a pretty good civil
>>liberties lawyer and Democratic Party Activist. She has noted that
>>Sheehan is a flaming bigot and anti-Semite. Hard to suggest that Estrich,
>>Hilary's former chief of staff, is in some GOP smear campaign against poor
>>little Cindy.
>>
>>State control of speech? We can say what we will, but we are not granted
>>the right to say it where we wish. I do not have a given right to a half
>>hour TV show to express my views or the right unless elected to express my
>>views on the floort of Congress. I have every right to stand out side of
>>the building and shout my views to the heavens, to write and hand out
>>leaflets expressing my views and to express my views when appropriate
>>space is made for public commentary. That is well established law and I
>>am sure you studied that in Law School.
>>
>>Phil Nisbet
>>
>>
>>>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Cindy was invited
>>>Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:06:36 -0800
>>>
>>>Phil,
>>>
>>>Gratuitous and inaccurate insults for Sheehan aside, is this a state
>>>restriction of free speech?
>>>
>>>Sunil
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>>To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Cindy was invited
>>>>Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:04:50 -0800
>>>>
>>>>Sunil
>>>>
>>>>Free speech rights do have limits. There is the famous shouoting fire
>>>>in a crowded theater example and for that matter there are incitement to
>>>>riot examples.
>>>>
>>>>But all of that goes beyond the factor at play here. The Capitol Police
>>>>work for the US Congress and not for the executive branch. The rules
>>>>regarding political T-shirts and general decorum are posted and have
>>>>been there for decades. They apply when Congress is in session and also
>>>>apply when the Chamber is empty. That has been the case under
>>>>Democratic Administration and Democratic Congresses, nixed Congress and
>>>>administrations and in purely Republican administrations.
>>>>
>>>>If I walk into the Moscow City Ciouncil Meeting and babble verses from
>>>>Yellow Submarine, I am not excercising my first amendment rights, I am
>>>>disrupting the proceedings of government. The City Council may also
>>>>make rules that bar me from brining huge banners or even ban me from
>>>>wearing certain clothes or going naked at council meetings. They can
>>>>bar me from speaking until times set up for public comment and can eject
>>>>me from their porceedings if I chose to comment outside of the space
>>>>made for public input. Not one of those is an abrigement of my right to
>>>>free speech.
>>>>
>>>>The Congressman's wife who was wearing a Pro-Iraq Tshirt was asked to
>>>>step outside. Hauptsturmbahnfurher Sheehan was asked to leave as well.
>>>>The Capital Polices only fault here was in arresting one of them rather
>>>>than simply ejecting her. They gave her an apology fir having arrsted
>>>>her, not for having her removed from the Gallery.
>>>>
>>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>>>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Cindy was invited
>>>>>Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 06:03:49 -0800
>>>>>
>>>>>It was wrong to eject anyone for political speech. If it happened when
>>>>>Clinton was president (facts, Pat?) it would have been wrong then too.
>>>>>
>>>>>Bush's campaign has regularly ejected people at political events for
>>>>>engaging in political speech. What makes this one a little different
>>>>>is that there was an immediate apology, and the actors denying the
>>>>>speech were state agents. The result is the same, however: citizens
>>>>>are denied their right to free speech.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sunil
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
>>>>>>To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>>>Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Cindy was invited
>>>>>>Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:48:23 -0800
>>>>>>
>>>>>>They all did and also that a senators wife had also been ejected.
>>>>>>Also, it has been done before during Clintons reign. I believe they
>>>>>>have all apologized at this time.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Ellen Roskovich
>>>>>> To: pkraut at moscow.com ; vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 11:37 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Cindy was invited
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I watched the State of the Union speech on NWCN last night and they
>>>>>>reported Cindy was invited, but was arrested when she wouldn't cover
>>>>>>the anti war t-shirt she was wearing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did any other news channels say this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ellen Roskovich
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>_____________________________________________________
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