[Vision2020] Heirdoug's hero

[Ralph Nielsen]

If Doug's claim that the genealogy in Matthew is historically true,  
then the one in Luke is false. Of course, it is possible that both  
are false, as honest Christian scholars agree.

I am at a loss to understand what Doug means when he claims that I  
"typically" quote Bible verses incompletely. Since the division of  
the Bible into chapters and verses is quite arbitrary--they do not  
appear in the MSS--it is not always necessary to quote verses in  
full. Since I was discussing David, not Jesus, my omission was  
perfectly legitimate.

I take it that Doug agrees with me that neither David nor his baby  
boy went to heaven when they died.

Vicarious punishment was considered perfectly moral in Bible days.  
That is why the LORD killed David's baby boy for his father's sins.  
And that is why, according to the Christian religion, God arranged to  
have his own son tortured and killed for the sins of others.

As for which or how many books belong in the Bible and thus  
constitute the "Word of God," here again the decision is quite  
arbitrary. To this day Christians and Jews cannot agree on this  
matter. So far be it from me to argue about it.

Ralph



Art Deco deco at moscow.com
Thu Dec 7 08:20:08 PST 2006

Lemon-O,

Should you be over-taxing your brain like this before having your  
pioneering brain surgery?  Should you be demonstrating how much  
functionality your brain has lost?

[1]

You claim that Jesus was descended from David according to Matthew in  
your post reproduced below.

There is a small problem with such a claim besides the truth of the  
lineage statements found in Matthew and the contradictory lineage  
statements found in Luke

<http://virtualreligion.net/primer/Background/lineage.html>.

"Descended from" means that there was a whole series of "begettings"  
that started with David and ended with Mary's fruit of the womb,  
Jesus.  [I am making the hopeful assumption that you know what  
"beget" means, although evidence from your personal life might be  
seen to argue otherwise.]

However, the point is simple:  If Jesus is descended from David, then  
sly old Joseph must have done some begetting himself with Mary.  If  
not, then David's lineage ended with Joseph, not Jesus.  So if Jesus  
is descended from David through either of the lineages supplied by  
Matthew or Luke (or any other lineage), the claim of a virgin birth  
is contradicted since in order to be descended from David through  
Joseph, Joseph, like David, must have enjoyed some begetting.

Choose your poison:  Virgin birth or descent from David.  Both cannot  
be true, but both could be false.  Merry Christmas.


[2]

Since your mental acuity has apparently suffered such a piteous  
decline (hence the urgency of the pending operation) from its former  
below average pinnacle, you appeared to have forgotten the concept of  
Modus Ponens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_Ponens

Here's how it applies to the story of David:

[a]    If the Bible is completely true, then all statements and  
logically valid derivatives of same found in the Bible are true.
[b]    The Bible in the story of David claims that is it OK to punish  
someone by hideously torturing and killing some innocent person with  
no moral culpability in the issue, e.g. David's son.
[c]    It is not OK to punish someone by hideously torturing and  
killing some innocent person with no moral culpability in the issue.
_______________________________________________
[d]    Therefore, there is at least one set of statements and  
logically valid derivatives of same in the Bible which is not true.
[e]    The Bible is not completely true.


If the Bible is not completely true, then the so far unsolved puzzle  
remains:  which parts are true (if any), which parts are not, and how  
can it be decided beyond a reasonable doubt and beyond fantasy which  
is which.

[Doug, I hope you do not mind the use of color above.  They say that  
some who suffer from your condition can attend and understand better  
if the material they are presented with is written using crayons.]


Again all of us hope that your brain surgery will be a success.   
However, you may not know it, but operations done near or during the  
holiday season have a lower success rate and a much greater mortality  
rate.   But if you live and are able to write coherently, please let  
us know when and where to send the get well cards.  In the meantime  
you would do well to avoid overtaxing your brain and embarrassing  
yourself further.


Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com

PS:  Is any of your medical expenses going to be paid for by the  
Wilson & Family's Christless Crackpot Cult & Cash Machine?  If not,  
then maybe a fund raising raffle could be held at the Corner Club.


----- Original Message -----
From: <heirdoug at netscape.net>
To: <nielsen at uidaho.edu>; <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 4:39 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Heirdoug's hero


 >
 > Ralph I did read carefully.
 >
 > You seem to think that by pointing out the sins of another that I  
will
 > be shamed and embarrassed by what the Spirit of the Living God states
 > in the Bible. I will never be embarrassed by all of what God says, be
 > they red or black letters.
 >
 > From the genealogy in Matthew we see that God is not embarrassed  
either
 > using David’s sins to bring about the redemption of Mankind… “The
 > record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David,  
the son
 > of Abraham: … Jesse was the father of David the king. David was the
 > father of Solomon by Bathsheba who had been the wife of Uriah.”
 >
 > And now the passage that you cited: "After He had removed him, He
 > raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He (God) also
 > testified and said, 'I HAVE FOUND DAVID the son of Jesse, A MAN AFTER
 > MY HEART, who will do all My will.”
 >
 > But you stopped short, as you typically do, from quoting the rest of
 > the verse… “From the descendants of this man, according to  
promise, God
 > has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus”.
 >
 > You should always quote all of the verse in it’s [sic] context and  
not be so
 > embarrassed by the truth that God's Word gives!
 >
 > lemeno, Doug!
 >
 >
 >