[Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
Saundra Lund
sslund at adelphia.net
Thu Aug 24 14:33:20 PDT 2006
Hi Tony & Other Visionaries:
I've stayed out of this discussion because I know what I think and have been
trying to gain a better understanding for what others think & why they think
what they think.
But, you've finally written something that I can't resist :-)
You wrote:
". . . it's just that I think flag burning gives significant comfort to
America's enemies."
What is the basis for you thinking that?
The reason I ask is that *I* think you're just plain wrong on that :-) I
have to preface my remarks by saying that since I don't know any terrorists
that I know of, my sample is admittedly skewed.
However, I do know people from lots of countries, including folks from
countries that certainly aren't thrilled with our current government or with
our form of government. And, I read a lot :-)
I think what "gives comfort to America's enemies" isn't anything like
burning the flag, but rather seeing the erosion of the individual
*liberties* American is known for fiercely protecting . . . and that
includes any erosion of our freedom of expression, which includes the
freedom to criticize our government.
I think "America's enemies" find *real* comfort in watching the news footage
of American citizens having to take off their shoes and throw away bottles
of water before being allowed to travel by plane within our own country, all
the while those same enemies know that our other forms of mass
transportation are virtually unprotected, and that our ports are vulnerable,
and that our water supplies are vulnerable.
I think "America's enemies" find it a hoot to watch the vicious fighting
between people on silly issues like banning the burning of the flag while
watching the gap between the "haves" and the "have nots" widen.
I think "America's enemies" take great comfort in the knowledge that there's
really no such thing as the absolute safety and watch with keen interest to
see exactly how far we're willing to let our government go in eroding our
liberties for something that simply doesn't exist.
My thoughts are based on lots of reading and *lots* of conversations over
decades with folks who live in other countries and lots of conversations
with folks who study this kind of thing
So, Tony, want makes your thoughts/beliefs on this issue any more valid than
mine?
Exactly how much individual liberty are you willing to give up in an
impossible quest for safety from terrorist attacks?
Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.
- Edmund Burke
***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006, Saundra Lund.
Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum
without the express written permission of the author.*****
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Tony Simpson
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 7:11 AM
To: Joe Campbell
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
Hi Joe,
I see the distinction you're concerned about, it's just that I think flag
burning gives significant comfort to America's enemies. That probably
constitutes harm. Still, one could probably make that argument about ANY
(genuine) speech dissenting from the official American position. I can
certainly look around and find more prevalent concerns than flag burning,
and grow tired of the thread, sooo......
Later, --T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "Tony Simpson" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Bill London" <london at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
> The key behind Bill's point is the difference between harm and offense.
> Robbery is a harm, flag burning is at most an offense. Sure you can tell
> some detailed story about some "harm" somewhere that is a "result" of the
> flag burning but there is no more of a connection here than there is
> between the lame comments of some folks on the V and my inability to sleep
> at night.
>
> Vague laws against certain forms of political expression, in this case
> flag burning, may make us feel good but they also open the door for more
> general and restrictive laws. The only way to prevent this is to have our
> laws be crisp and clean. Clear harms to clear persons should be the
> standard.
>
> --
> Joe Campbell
>
> ---- Tony Simpson <tonytime at clearwire.net> wrote:
>
> =============
> Ah but Bill, how can you be so intolerant of robbery? Surely you are
> aware
> that robbery is not a crime, but merely the perpetrator's expression of
> his
> distaste for capitalism and his support of wealth redistribution. And of
> course, expression is protected under the constitution, so as repulsive as
> we may find robbery, we are using poor reasoning in calling for its
> abolition.
>
> --T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill London" <london at moscow.com>
> To: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>; <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>;
> <thansen at moscow.com>; <joekc at adelphia.net>; <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
>
>
>> The crucial difference is that the rainbow flag was first stolen, then
>> trashed. The issue was not free speech, but robbery.
>> BL
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
>> To: <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; <thansen at moscow.com>;
>> <joekc at adelphia.net>; <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 8:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
>>
>>
>>> Donovan,
>>>
>>> Wasn't that flag thrown in the trash can and not burned? I remember the
>> flag
>>> still in tact when I saw it.
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>> >From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>>> >To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>, "'Joe Campbell'"
>> <joekc at adelphia.net>,
>>> > "'Tony Simpson'" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>>> >CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
>>> >Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:53:56 -0700 (PDT)
>>> >
>>> >Tom,
>>> >
>>> > If someone burns a flag of a country, nation or group of people, I
>>> >consider it an act of aggression and/or ill will towards those
>>> >people.
>> I
>>> >responded that way when several of my senatorial colleagues in ASUI
>> burned
>>> >the Gay Straight Alliance Flag--as did many others.
>>> >
>>> > If someone protests against a war or action of the US within the US
>> they
>>> >can do so without burning a flag, spitting on US Soldiers, or
>>> >destroying
>>> >public or private property.
>>> >
>>> > So yes, I think someone that burns a US Flag should be watched more
>>> >carefully, and I think they are people that are disrespecting the
>>> >United
>>> >States and all the people in it. I consider an attack on a US Naval
>>> >ROTC
>>> >Building an attack on the US--especially one that my Dad was attending
>>> >during the 60s.
>>> >
>>> > Best,
>>> >
>>> > _DJA
>>> >
>>> >Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote: v\:*
>>> >{behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:*
>>> >{behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
>>> > st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Arnold
>>> >stated:
>>> >
>>> > "It is easier to find those that hate and wish real harm to the
>>> >United States if you allow them to burn a flag."
>>> >
>>> > Are you suggesting that all those students and anti-war
>>> > protestors
>>> >during Vietnam hated and wished real harm to the United States,
>>> >Arnold?
>>> >
>>> > Campuses (just to name a few) at:
>>> >
>>> > University of Virginia
>>> >
>>> > University of California at Berkeley
>>> >
>>> > Kent State University
>>> >
>>> > UNIVERSITY OF IDAHO
>>> > (Be careful here, Arnold. My wife attended UI during the late
>>> > 60's.
>>> >Yes. There were major demonstrations which included (on one occasion
>>> >burning a US flag and an attempt to burn down the Navy ROTC building)
>>> >
>>> > Thoughts?
>>> >
>>> > Tom Hansen
>>> >
>>> > ********************************************
>>> >
>>> > "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"
>>> >
>>> > - Thomas Jefferson
>>> >
>>> > ********************************************
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >---------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
>>> >[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
>>> > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 2:26 PM
>>> > To: Joe Campbell; Tony Simpson
>>> > Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's
>> ass!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > "I think that the question of whether flag burning is or is not
>>> >speech
>>> > is not so clear." Joe Campbell
>>> >
>>> > Isn't it that every American Flag eventually gets burned?
>>> >
>>> > A flag is speech, that is all it is, how you burn it and for what
>>> >reasons I think
>>> > speaks volumes.
>>> >
>>> > It is easier to find those that hate and wish real harm to the
>>> > United States if you allow them to burn a flag.
>>> >
>>> > Best,
>>> >
>>> > _DJA
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >---------------------------------
>>> > All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things
>>> > done
>>> >faster.
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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