[Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
g. crabtree
jampot at adelphia.net
Mon Aug 21 10:23:42 PDT 2006
I would love to engage with you on this topic, Joe, but we both know where
that will inevitably lead. Suffice it to say I stand by what I wrote and not
what's read into it. If you imagine that there are not as many or more
people looking to enact hate speech legislation as there are flag burning
laws you are mistaken. Collage campus's regularly enact regulations with
regard to what may and may not be said. California recently enacted hate
speech law in the form of SB1234. I could cite many other examples. " I
might criticize but what I won't do is try to use the law to force folks to
stop using hate speech or burning flags." is something that I'm happy to
hear you say but it certainly isn't the norm with regard to the folks I was
referring to in my post.
gc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
> Hansen is right, Crabtree. As I see it, you are making two mistakes.
>
> First, as I said before, criticism of intolerant behavior is not
> necessarily a display of intolerance. I think that folks who use hate
> speech are wrong to do so. Likewise with folks who burn flags. I often
> criticize the former and if I actually knew someone who burned a flag I
> might criticize the latter. Both, I think, are actions that are done with
> a desire to agitate not simply to make a point and, for that reason, both
> deserve criticism.
>
> Second, criticizing hate speech is different from trying to ban hate
> speech. I might criticize but what I won't do is try to use the law to
> force folks to stop using hate speech or burning flags. I don't confuse a
> world where I force people to do what I think is right with a world where
> people do the right thing. In order to get the former you need to allow
> for free action and once you do that the possibility of acting wrongly
> always remains. You have to take the bitter (hate speech, flag burning)
> with the better (freedom). The best that you can do is to try to convince
> people, through critical verbal remarks, to do the right thing.
>
> --
> Joe Campbell
>
> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> =============
> Mr. Rumelhart brings up an interesting point when he says,"Freedom of
> Speech is not a piecemeal concept. It has to be all or nothing. The
> minute you start limiting it, it's usefulness in all areas goes right out
> the door. Look at "hate speech". This concept is becoming broader by the
> second in our PC society." It would seem that the folks who would be the
> first to defend someone's right to burn our flag would loudly howl if a
> disparaging term was used by someone to express an "unapproved" opinion
> with regard to minorities, women, homosexuals, food animals, or what have
> you. These "patriots" are mighty quick to celebrate diversity and
> dissent as long as its the right kind. Gore their ox and their much yapped
> about tolerance flies out the window.
>
> gc
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Rumelhart
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 9:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
>
>
> I'm sure you've heard all these reasons before, but I'll outline a few
> just in case you've missed them.
>
> - Burning the American flag falls under Freedom of Speech. Yes, it's not
> "speech" per se, but the courts have extended the concept of "speech" to
> cover most forms of expression, not just the spoken word.
>
> - Freedom of Speech is not a piecemeal concept. It has to be all or
> nothing. The minute you start limiting it, it's usefulness in all areas
> goes right out the door. Look at "hate speech". This concept is becoming
> broader by the second in our PC society.
>
> - Burning a flag is an expression of dissent. Of all types of speech,
> the expressions of dissent are in most need of protection. Without it,
> you have a tyrrany.
>
> - Freedom is difficult. If you give someone the freedom to say whatever
> they like, they may say something that annoys or disgusts or offends you.
> That is the price of freedom. For example, I wish that people would stop
> burning the American flag; it just leads to emotion-driven reactions
> instead of rational, thoughtful reactions. However, they have the right
> to express their dissent in whatever way they choose whether I like it or
> not. Freedom is worth it, though.
>
> - Even if you can in no way think that this administration has done
> anything that people should be making such politically-charged statements
> like burning the flag, what about the next one? Or the next? What if
> your worst nightmare came into office? I don't know for you if that's
> Hillary Clinton, Butch Otter, the Antichrist, or Marilyn Manson - but
> whoever it is, what if you did not have the freedom to express your
> dissent? What if they changed all the rules and made this country into
> whatever it is you fear they will make it into?
>
> - Being a patriot does not mean cowtowing to whoever is in charge. What
> if our founding fathers thought that way? The Constitution is a document
> of checks and balances. Freedom of Speech and the Right to Bear Arms are
> two powerful tools we have been given to use as checks against a
> government that might get out of control.
>
> - Assaulting someone (or is it battery? I get them confused) is orders
> of magnitude worse than an expression of dissent. There you are treading
> on the rights of another individual. The fact that you don't see an
> overwhelming difference between the two of them frightens me.
>
> Anyway, I'm sure there are others. I'm also sure you actually agree with
> some of them to some extent or you wouldn't be proud to live here.
>
> Paul
>
> -
>
> Tony Simpson wrote:
> Leave it to a subversive Hippie like Bill London to praise those who would
> burn the American flag. Pathetic and loathsome. Flower child London
> says,
> "If I chose to desecrate a flag by burning it in an open place.... so
> what?
> That is free speech."
>
> What pure, unadulterated horseshit! There is no speech involved in such a
> juvenile, thoughtless, ungrateful and snotnosed activity. It is
> unpatriotic, typically liberal acting out. If that is free speech, Billy
> Boy, then it would be free speech for me to walk up to said burner and
> bury
> my boot a foot up his terrorist--enabling ass!
>
> Sick to death of America's domestic enemies, --TONY
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill London" <london at moscow.com>
> To: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>; <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com>;
> <sslund at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 10:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
>
>
> Since you asked.....
> a few of my reasons why I think a Constitutional amendment against
> desecrating the flag is stupid....
> 1. what is the problem? how many descrated flags are there?
> 2. if I own the flag and choose to desecrate it by burning it in an open
> place that will not cause a general fire, so what? That is free speech.
> The flag is a symbol, and burning it is Constitutionally-protected.
> 3. what is desecration? wearing a flag on the butt of your jeans?
> wrapping
> your used car in flags to sell it at a used car lot? getting a tattoo of
> flag upside down? Boy Scouts burning old flags?
> BL
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
> To: <london at moscow.com>; <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com>;
> <sslund at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
>
>
> Mr. London,
>
> And just as they should. Why shouldn't the congress take one day out of
> their schedule in order to make flag burning an offense? If they focus on
> baseball why not on the flag?
>
> Matt
>
>
> From: "Bill London" <london at moscow.com>
> To: "kerry becker" <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com>, <sslund at adelphia.net>,
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:33:43 -0700
>
> Yes, it is true that Chicago has (for the reasons Ms. Lund has
> enumerated)
> banned foie gras, because of the disgusting and inhumane way the birds
> are
> force-fed to create these inflated livers. Chicago has not banned duck
> liver, only foie gras.
> And as for the reason, it's all a question of values, as the Republicans
> say every year when they try to amend the US Constitution to end the
> non-existant problem of people burning US flags.
> BL
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: kerry becker
> To: sslund at adelphia.net ; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 4:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This is absurd. The city of Chicago has taken the time to ban duck
> liver?? - Meanwhile the inner city runs rampant with crime, poverty and
> drugs. Odd really.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at adelphia.net>
> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:38:46 -0700
> >Visionaries:
> >
> >I have debated and debated about whether to post this or not, but
> I'd
> hate
> >for an unsuspecting person to go to West of Paris only to be
> horrified.
> >
> >I was deeply disappointed to see that West of Paris will be
> selling
> foie
> >gras:
> >http://www.westofparis.com/dinner_menu.html
> >For that reason alone, I will refuse to patronize the business, no
> matter
> >how delicious other menu items look or sound -- it's a matter of
> ethics for
> >me.
> >
> >The process used to make foie gras is animal cruelty, pure and
> simple
> :-(((
> >Fifteen nations (including the UK, the Czech Republic, Denmark,
> Finland,
> >Germany, Luxembourg, Norway, Poland, Sweden, Switzerland, and
> Israel
> --
> >formerly the fourth largest producer in the world) have banned
> force-feeding
> >birds for foie gras production. The City of Chicago has banned
> the
> sale of
> >foie gras, and Philadelphia is likely to follow. Beginning 2012,
> the
> >production and sale of foie gras from force-fed birds will be
> banned
> in the
> >State of California.
> >
> >I won't go into the horrifying and graphic details of how foie
> gras
> is
> >produced, but for those who want to learn more, you can check out:
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras
> >You can also Google it, but WARNING: there's a lot of deeply
> disturbing
> >(although accurate) information and photos you'll find.
> >
> >Very disappointing that foie gras will be sold in *any* Moscow
> restaurant
> >:-(((
> >
> >
> >JMNSHO,
> >Saundra Lund
> >Moscow, ID
> >
> >The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
> people
> to do
> >nothing.
> >- Edmund Burke
> >
> >***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006,
> Saundra
> Lund.
> >Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision
> 2020
> forum
> >without the express written permission of the author.*****
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> >On Behalf Of Daniel Foucachon
> >Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 7:59 PM
> >To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
> >
> > West of Paris<http://www.westofparis.com/images/west_paris.gif>
> >Grand Opening
> >Friday, August 18th, 2006
> >
> >Now accepting reservations
> >
> >Call (208) 882-4279
> >
> >www.westofparis.com <http://www.westofparis.com/> | opening at
> 6:00
> p.m.
> >
> >
> >=======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >=======================================================
>
>
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>
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