[Vision2020] Evangelical Christianity vs. Wilsonian Christianity

[Steven Simmons]

Mr. Arnold,

I agree with you that most churches aren't organized like democracies: 
they are organizations for worshipers to gather and share in their beliefs.
As such, they usually do not have agendas and therefore no "sins" that 
belong to the church and its members as a collective.

However, as an extreme example, I head a church that oppresses the women 
and children and forces them into compliance with my religious 
ideologies against their will, I, and all those in my church who knew of 
my actions, are at fault.

"God does not take requests as to what is right and wrong."

What does God have to do with the actions of a church? The belief 
structures and actions of a church are made by men. Even believers, 
except Mormons, which believe in modern-day revelation, agree with that. 
I doubt Doug Wilson would say that God organized his church.

I would not be at all surprised to discover that Doug Wilson's actions 
are blown out of proportion. He preaches offensive things, and even 
though that is his right, it is an obvious reaction that people would 
want to attack him on a personal level. Of course, just because people 
hate him doesn't mean that their accusations aren't true, either.

"So logic dictates it is the content of his religion, his freedom to 
practice his faith, that is being hindered."

The first amendment right to free speech provides protection from the 
government, not citizens. I can go to every speech of Doug Wilson's and 
make every (legal) attempt to silence him, and I am not violating his 
rights in the least.

I feel it my moral obligation to fight tooth and nail against bigotry, 
including hindering the expansion of religions I deem as being a threat 
to the good of mankind. However, I believe education, understanding, and 
acceptance are the way to do this, not hissy fits. Alienating those you 
are attempting to help is counterproductive.

Just as Christians have a right to stand on street corners and pass out 
their religious texts, I have a right to stand up and try to convince 
people to not accept their ideals.

"Their beliefs do not impact his life unless he lets it."

Unless of course, one wants to have a same-sex marriage, buy beer on 
Sunday, or buy sex toys in Virginia (yes, its illegal there). Belief 
structures have been a source of restricting personal liberty since the 
dawn of time, and it is our right to fight back against imposing belief 
structures.


Steven Simmons


Donovan Arnold wrote:

>Mr. Simmons,
>
>"I am not saying every church is their pastor, it
>  
>
>>just *appears* to be 
>>that way with the kirkers."
>>    
>>
>
>Yes, it does appear that way. I do not think it is
>that way. I think most the things that are said by Mr.
>Wilson are not anymore outrageous than what other
>conservatives can say at times.
>
>I do think that people in the church do speak out
>against Mr. Wilson when they disagree with him. But I
>also think that they do not do it publicly because it
>would no doubt be fodder for those that preach against
>the Church.
>
>I also do NOT think you can compare a democratic
>system of organization to that of a church. Churches
>are not democracies, and God does not take requests as
>to what is right and wrong.  
>
>I also think that most of the things that Mr. Wilson
>does wrong are blown out of proportion to what
>actually happened. 
>
>The real objections to Mr. Wilson are not that he
>wrote a book with someone that plagiarized his
>portion. It is the religious beliefs of Wilson that
>people object too. And nobody is going to leave a
>conservative church for conservative teachings if they
>are conservative. 
>
>Doug Wilson is attacked because be is trying to expand
>his Church and it is a conservative church. If Doug
>Wilson was preaching tolerance of homosexuals and
>equality for women in the church he would not be
>facing the same opposition he is. So logic dictates it
>is the content of his religion, his freedom to
>practice his faith, that is being hindered. That is a
>violation of First Amendment rights. 
>
>My position is the same regardless of the religion
>being preached, the First Amendment applies always.
>
>Nobody is forcing Nick Gier to follow CC or attend
>NSA. Why is he attempting to eliminate their right to
>attend NSA and CC? Their beliefs do not impact his
>life unless he lets it.  
>
>Thanks for your remarks and conversation.
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>PS, you are right about V2020 to be called Venom 2020,
>I prefer Vulture 2020 though. 
>
>
>--- Steven Simmons <lowman at lowbatteries.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I am not saying every church is their pastor, it
>>just *appears* to be 
>>that way with the kirkers.
>>
>>I am not saying that I know anything of the sins of
>>Doug Wilson, I am 
>>simply stating my opinion that members of an
>>organization are 
>>responsible for its actions and the actions of its
>>leaders. In most 
>>churches I have been to, I would not describe the
>>pastor as the 
>>*leader*, either. It just appears that Doug Wilson
>>seems very much to be 
>>a powerful figure in his church structure.
>>
>>Most churches seem to be, as you said, an
>>environment "to worship their 
>>God with their family and friends", and such
>>churches' pastors usually 
>>do not have any external political or social
>>agendas.
>>
>>By being a member of an organization, you are
>>supporting that 
>>organization and its actions. As a United States
>>citizen, the war in 
>>Iraq is, in part, my responsibility (if not my
>>fault), and though I have 
>>spoken out against the war on terror since it was
>>declared shortly after 
>>the 9-11 attacks, I will not shrug off that heavy
>>burden of truth that 
>>my country is responsible for the actions of George
>>W. Bush and our 
>>representatives in the legislature. Being a member
>>of a republic means 
>>that you choose to let others act in your name.
>>Being a member of an 
>>organization is no different. Silence or
>>indifference are not excuses 
>>and do not absolve you of responsibility.
>>
>>Notice the difference between *fault* and
>>*responsibility*, a 
>>distinction most people don't make: "If its not my
>>fault, its not my 
>>responsibility".
>>
>>The kirkers, as continued members of Christ Church,
>>are responsible for 
>>the actions of their leaders (at least when acting
>>in an official 
>>capacity), whether those actions be good or bad,
>>especially if they 
>>voice no dissent (and not necessarily publicly -
>>privately, within the 
>>organization, would be more appropriate). You don't
>>have to defame to 
>>show dissent.
>>
>>As far as facts, I learned within reading my first
>>three posts on this 
>>message board that any and all comments are taken as
>>hostile and 
>>responded with hostility, from all sides. Whoever
>>coined the phrase 
>>"Venom 2020" has it right. So, I assure you, I take
>>nothing on this 
>>forum blindly as fact, and very little of it as
>>actual discussion or debate.
>>
>>There are exceptions, however, and I thank you for
>>your well-mannered 
>>and thought-provoking comments.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>
>>Steven Simmons
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Donovan Arnold wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Mr. Simmons,
>>>
>>>By your reasoning you must also hold me responsible
>>>for the sins of my pastor and the Pope. The Pope
>>>      
>>>
>>sets
>>    
>>
>>>all policy in the Catholic Church. I believe the
>>>      
>>>
>>same
>>    
>>
>>>is true for other religions.
>>>
>>>Where is it written that members of the church that
>>>disagree with the actions of their pastor must
>>>      
>>>
>>defame
>>    
>>
>>>him and his actions in public? I do not think that
>>>members of any church think their pastor does not
>>>      
>>>
>>make
>>    
>>
>>>mistakes or sin. But they do not write letters to
>>>      
>>>
>>the
>>    
>>
>>>editor and establish websites about it either, why
>>>should members of CC or NSA be any different?
>>>
>>>And I disagree that a church is their pastor. A
>>>      
>>>
>>church
>>    
>>
>>>is a whole group of people. A pastor is SUPPOSE to
>>>      
>>>
>>be
>>    
>>
>>>a connector between God and the people. Members of
>>>      
>>>
>>the
>>    
>>
>>>church many choose to stay with a church to worship
>>>their God with their family and friends and ignore
>>>certain teachings of the church. I know that people
>>>      
>>>
>>in
>>    
>>
>>>my Church do. 
>>>
>>>I do not support what Doug Wilson preaches, just
>>>      
>>>
>>his
>>    
>>
>>>right to preach it.
>>>
>>>On a personal note, I would not take anything said
>>>      
>>>
>>on
>>    
>>
>>>Vision 2020 about Mr. Wilson as factual, on either
>>>side of the issue. 
>>>
>>>Donovan J Arnold 
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>about them. From reading both their websites and
>>>>        
>>>>
>>the
>>    
>>
>>>>others I have seen 
>>>>reference to on V2020, it seems to me that Doug
>>>>Wilson IS Christ Church, 
>>>>in as far as his doctrines are the church's
>>>>doctrines, and he controls 
>>>>the actions and belief structure of his church.
>>>>
>>>>However, being relatively uneducated about the
>>>>subject, my comments are 
>>>>submitted in humility.
>>>>
>>>>But I will say this with conviction:
>>>>
>>>>You can, and should, hold members of an
>>>>        
>>>>
>>organization
>>    
>>
>>>>responsible for the 
>>>>codified belief structure and even the actions of
>>>>that organization and 
>>>>its leaders, unless they are a voice of dissent
>>>>during the time those 
>>>>actions took place, or at least afterward.
>>>>
>>>>Any kirkers who do not decry any exposed sins of
>>>>their pastor are 
>>>>supporting them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Steven Simmons
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Donovan Arnold wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Mr. Hansen,
>>>>>
>>>>>First, thank you for correcting my error in
>>>>>     
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>referring
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Mr. Wilson as having a degree he did not earn.
>>>>>However, Mr. Wilson's level of educational
>>>>>     
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>attainment
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>has nothing to do with my arguments.
>>>>>
>>>>>Second, I do believe that Dr. Gier has insulted
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>the
>>    
>>
>>>>>members of Christ Church in his arguments
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>comparing
>>    
>>
>>>>>the Taliban to the members of Christ Church.
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>Which
>>    
>>
>>>>>     
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>is
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>why he got himself in hot water on Mr. Courtney's
>>>>>Blog. 
>>>>>
>>>>>Finally, I never said that Mr. Wilson should not
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>be
>>    
>>
>>>>>held to higher moral standards of scrutiny than
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>=== message truncated ===
>
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