[Vision2020] 07 05 05 Ny Times: United ChurchofChristBacksSame-Sex
Marriage
David M. Budge
dave at davebudge.com
Tue Jul 12 08:13:00 PDT 2005
Wayne,
I'm no "so-called" libertarian. I do, however, have a day job to tend
to. As for sexual orientation? I'm for it - and I'm also good with
same-sex marriage. I do think, however, that the government needs to
stay out of the marriage biz. I think we're all smart enough to make
our own declarations and the common law serves us just fine.
Back to work!
db
Art Deco wrote:
> I am disappointed that some of the so-called libertarians on this list
> have not responded to this argument. Or is the concept of individual
> liberty, choice, and aspiration in its death throes?
>
> W.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
> To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 9:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 07 05 05 Ny Times: United
> ChurchofChristBacksSame-Sex Marriage
>
>
>> If they can convince us that this has been a normal practice throughout
>> history then they think they can justify their actions today and 'prove'
>> that the stand against homesexuality is wrong is our problem. It is the
>> argument of a thirteen year old...'everybody else is doing it'. If it is
>> wrong I don't care who else did it and just being famous is not reason
>> enough to follow the beliefs of anyone.
>> PK
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
>> To: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>; "'Pat Kraut'"
>> <pkraut at moscow.com>;
>> "'vision2020'" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 12:52 PM
>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] 07 05 05 Ny Times: United Church
>> ofChristBacksSame-Sex Marriage
>>
>>
>> Not that it makes any difference, but I would question some 20 plus
>> of the
>> names on your list being accurate. Some were great people some were
>> scoundrels. Whether they were homosexual is debatable. You may be
>> right, I
>> don't know. Lord Byron was a notoriouss womanizer. He may not have had a
>> preference, I don't know. There were accusations against J. Edgar
>> Hoove made
>> by his enemies. I don't know that they have been shown to be any
>> thing more
>> than accusations made to discredit him. I have never seen anything on
>> Eleanor Roosevelt or about 20 other people on you list. Against that
>> doesn't
>> mean anything.
>> -----Original message-----
>> From: "Tom Hansen" thansen at moscow.com
>> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 06:48:42 -0700
>> To: "'Pat Kraut'" pkraut at moscow.com
>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] 07 05 05 Ny Times: United Church of
>> ChristBacksSame-Sex Marriage
>>
>>> You may be on to something there, Ms. Kraut.
>>>
>>> We certainly cannot have our children growing up thinking (or for that
>>> matter, believing) that homosexuals are people with human emotions.
>>>
>>> We must identify homosexuals and eliminate them. It's the moral
>>> thing to
>>> do. Right, Ms. Kraut?
>>>
>>> Perhaps another concept we should adapt concerning our children is
>>> "Out of
>>> sight, out of mind." We should purge any and all documents, films,
>>
>> photos,
>>
>>> etc. etc. that depict any of the following homosexuals. After all,
>>> it is
>>> only right.
>>>
>>> This list is not all inclusive, just a mere spattering of
>>> homosexuals in
>>> history. You've got to start somewhere.
>>>
>>> Right, Ms. Kraut?
>>>
>>> *Macedonian Ruler, 300 B.C.
>>> Socrates
>>> *Greek Philosopher, 400 B.C.
>>> Sappho
>>> *Greek Woman Poet, 600 B.C.
>>> Hadrian
>>> *Roman Emperor, 1st-2nd c.
>>> Richard the Lionhearted
>>> *English King, 12th c.
>>> Saladin
>>> *Sultan of Egypt and Syria
>>> Desiderius Erasmus
>>> *Dutch Monk, Philosopher
>>> Francis Bacon
>>> *English statesman, author
>>> Frederick the Great
>>> *King of Prussia
>>> Lord Byron
>>> *English poet, 18th c.
>>> Walt Whitman
>>> *U.S. poet, author, 19th c.
>>> Oscar Wilde
>>> *Irish author, 19th c.
>>> Marcel Proust
>>> *French author, 20th c.
>>> Colette
>>> *French author, 20th c.
>>> Gertrude Stein
>>> *U.S. poet, author, 20th c.
>>> Alice B. Toklas
>>> *U.S. author, 20th c.
>>> Federico Garcia Lorca
>>> *Spanish author, 20th c.
>>> Cole Porter
>>> *U.S. composer, 20th c.
>>> Virginia Woolf
>>> *English author, 20th c.
>>> Leonard Bernstein
>>> *U.S. composer, 20th c.
>>> Pope Julius III
>>> *1550-1555
>>> T.E. Lawrence
>>> *English soldier, author, 20th c.
>>> Jean Cocteau
>>> *French writer, director, 20th c.
>>> Charles Laughton
>>> *English actor, 20th c.
>>> Marguerite Yourcenar
>>> *Belgian author, 20th c.
>>> Tennessee Williams
>>> *U.S. Playwright, 20th c.
>>> James Baldwin
>>> *U.S. author, 20th c.
>>> Andy Warhol
>>> *U.S. artist, 20th c.
>>> Michelangelo
>>> *Italian artist, 15th c.
>>> Leonardo Da Vinci
>>> *Ital. Artist, scientist, 15th c.
>>> Christopher Marlowe
>>> *Eng. Playwright, 16th c.
>>> Herman Melville
>>> *U.S. author, 19th c.
>>> Horatio Alger, Jr.
>>> *U.S. author, 19th c.
>>> Tchaikovsky
>>> *Russian composer, 19th c.
>>> Willa Cather
>>> *U.S. author, 19th c.
>>> Amy Lowell
>>> *U.S. author, 19th & 20th c.
>>> E.M. Forster
>>> *English author, 20th c.
>>> John M. Keynes
>>> *English economist, 20th c.
>>> Ludwig Wittgenstein
>>> *Australian mathematician, 20th c.
>>> Bessie Smith
>>> *U.S. singer, 20th c.
>>> Noel Coward
>>> *English playwright, 20th c.
>>> Christopher Isherwood
>>> *English author, 20th c.
>>> Pier Paolo Pasolini
>>> *Italian film director, 20th c.
>>> Yukio Mishima
>>> *Japanese author, 20th c.
>>> Eleanor Roosevelt
>>> *U.S. stateswoman, 20th c.
>>> Julius Caesar
>>> *Roman Emperor, 100-44 B.C.
>>> Augustus Caesar
>>> *Roman Emperor
>>> Harvey Milk
>>> *U.S. politician, 20th c.
>>> Bayard Rustin
>>> *U.S. Civil Rights activist, 20th c.
>>> James I
>>> *English King, 16th-17th c.
>>> Queen Anne
>>> *English Queen, 18th c.
>>> Marie Antoinette
>>> *French Empress, 18th c.
>>> Melissa Etheridge
>>> *U.S. Rock Star, 20th c.
>>> Pope Benedict IX
>>> *1032-1044
>>> May Sarton
>>> *U.S. author, (1912 - 1995)
>>> Edna Ferber
>>> *U.S. author, 20th c.
>>> Elton John
>>> *English Rock Star, 20th c.
>>> Margaret Fuller
>>> *U.S. writer, educator, 20th c.
>>> Montezuma II
>>> *Aztec ruler, 16th c.
>>> Peter the Great
>>> *Russian Czar, 17th-18th c.
>>> Langston Hughes
>>> *U.S. author, 20th c.
>>> Pope John XII
>>> *955-964
>>> Madame de Stael
>>> *French writer, 17th-18th c.
>>> Martina Navratilova
>>> *U.S. tennis star, 20th c.
>>> Greg Louganis
>>> *U.S. Olympic swimmer, 20th c.
>>> Billie Jean King
>>> *U.S. tennis star, 20th c.
>>> Roberta Achtenburg
>>> *U.S. politician, 20th c.
>>> Barney Frank
>>> *U.S. Congressman, 20th c.
>>> Gerry Studds
>>> *U.S. Congressman, 20th c.
>>> Hans Christian Andersen
>>> *Danish author, 19th c.
>>> Tom Dooley
>>> *U.S. M.D. missionary, 20th c.
>>> J. Edgar Hoover
>>> *U.S. director of the FBI., 20th c.
>>> Frida Kahlo
>>> *Mexican artist, 20th c.
>>> Suleiman the Magnificent
>>> *Ottoman ruler, 15th c.
>>> Rock Hudson
>>> *U.S. actor, 20th c.
>>> Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
>>> *Mexican author, 16th c.
>>> Ralph Waldo Emerson
>>> *U.S. author, 19th c.
>>> Candace Gingrich
>>> *Gay Rights activist, 20th c.
>>> Margarethe Cammermeyer
>>> *U.S. Army Colonel, 20th c.
>>> Zoe Dunning
>>> *U.S. Military Reservist, 20th c.
>>> Tom Waddel
>>> *U.S. M.D., Olympic star, 20th c.
>>> Kate Millet
>>> *U.S. author, 20th c.
>>> Janis Joplin
>>> *U.S. singer, 20th c.
>>> Rudolf Nuryev
>>> *Russian dancer, 20th c.
>>> Waslaw Nijinsky
>>> *Russian dancer, 20th c.
>>> Ernst Röhm
>>> *German Nazi leader, 20th c.
>>> Dag Hammerskjold
>>> *Swedish UN Secretary, 209th c.
>>> Aristotle
>>> *Greek philosopher, 384-322 B.C.
>>> Paula Gunn Allen
>>> *Native American author, 20th c.
>>> Angela Davis
>>> *U.S. political activist, 20th c.
>>> June Jordan
>>> *U.S. author, activist, 20th c.
>>> Rainer Maria Rilke
>>> *German poet, 20th c.
>>> James Dean
>>> *U.S. actor, 20th c.
>>> Montgomery Clift
>>> *U.S. actor, 20th c.
>>> Baron VonSteuben
>>> *German General, Valley Forge
>>> Edward II
>>> *English King, 14th c.
>>>
>>> Take care, Moscow.
>>>
>>> Tom Hansen
>>>
>>>
>>> We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty,
>>> some
>>
>> are
>>
>>> dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors....but
>>> they all
>>> exist very nicely in the same box.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
>>> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Pat Kraut
>>> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:54 PM
>>> To: vision2020
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 07 05 05 Ny Times: United Church of
>>> ChristBacksSame-Sex Marriage
>>>
>>> You truly cannot see the difference...no wonder our kids don't know
>>> what
>>> morality is. We are doomed!
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Dredge" <sdredge at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "donald toogood" <dtoogood at email.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 7:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 07 05 05 Ny Times: United Church of Christ
>>> BacksSame-Sex Marriage
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe you didn't understand my comment. At one point
>>> in this country not so long ago (around 1950), many
>>> states outlawed interracial marriages...something like
>>> 38 states banned them. Some had bans within their
>>> state constitutions. The reason why I bring this up
>>> is that it is a direct parallel to banning same sex
>>> marriage.
>>>
>>> Roughly 60 years ago in this country, interracial
>>> marriages were banned. A black man marrying a white
>>> woman was illegal. A white man marrying a black woman
>>> was illegal. You claim this isn't the same thing as a
>>> man marrying a man or a woman marrying a woman. Why?
>>> If at one point, there were laws against interracial
>>> marriage and same sex marriage, what's the difference?
>>> They were both considered illegal marriages.
>>>
>>> Married can mean between a man and a woman. However,
>>> same sex couples in a civil union deserve the exact
>>> same rights as married couples.
>>>
>>> -Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
> _____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
> communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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