[Vision2020] Nisbet's nastiness

[Ralph Nielsen]

> [Vision2020] Sorry Ralph, your [you're] still wrong
>
> Phil Nisbet pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com
> Sun Aug 28 16:51:39 PDT 2005
>
>
> Yes Ralph, you are indeed an anti-Semite.  You may not mean to be,  
> but you
> are way out of your depths trying to tell a Jew what his beliefs are.

Ralph: I'm only dealing with what the Tanakh says. I'm not trying to  
tell you what to believe.
>
> The term Hebrew Bible is a Christian one and it is not Tanakh and  
> will not
> be even if it is printed in Ivrit.  Which exact shul did you find a  
> Hebrew
> Bible in, or is it that you have some printing by some Christian
> organization?

Ralph: "Christianity, since it claims to be a fulfillment of the  
Jewish scripture, accepts the sanctity and normative nature of the  
books of the Hebrew Bible" (The Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish  
Religion, article on BIBLE, by Baruch J. Schwartz, Tel Aviv  
University, p. 121).
>
> And just a minor news flash for you Ralph, Tanakh is only one  
> source.  There
> is the written and the oral law and on top of that there are  
> rulings and
> discussions in a pretty continuous stream for over the last 2400  
> years.
>
> I posted directly to you the current wisdom from a pretty learned  
> Rabbi at
> aish.com and what do you reply with?

Ralph: See my first remark above.
>
> “(John L. McKenzie, S.T.D., in The New Jerome Biblical Commentary,  
> 1990. p.
> 1313).”
>
> Well gosh, what have we here, the ideas on what Jews think from some
> Christian theologian.

Ralph: You don't sound like an educated man. If you were, you would  
have shown where you think Dr. McKenzie is wrong instead of your  
childish remark above.
>
> I will try one more time to educate you;
>
> http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/ 
> bl_simmons_heavenhell.htm
>
>
> So, if you want to take up with Rabbi Shraga Simmons in Jerusalem,  
> please
> feel free and you can email him at http://www.aish.com/ that is if you
> figure that just maybe a Rabbi might know a tad more than your  
> Christian
> minister does about what Jewish beliefs are.

Ralph: I also quoted from an authentically Jewish source, but you  
just deleted it. Did you think nobody would notice what you had done?  
Let's have some intellectual honesty here. Here it is again, for your  
education:

"There is not a hint of [life after death] in the Torah, or in most  
of the [Hebrew] Bible. There, human death is final. ... With the  
possible exceptions of Elijah and Enoch, all biblical personalities  
die and their death is final." (Etz Hayim; Torah and Commentary.  
Jewish Publication Society, 2000. p. 1436).

>
> You also wrote this little Gem
>
> “Nisbet also refuses to recognize that there is no life after death in
> the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament). In fact, he can't show us one
> single person in the Tanakh who died and went to heaven.”
>
> I do not own one of your Christian Hebrew Bibles, so how the heck  
> am I gone
> to find what you people put in there.  For all I know you have  
> centerfolds
> in there of Angelina Jolie.

Ralph: A totally dishonest retort. Shame on you, Phil!
> "In fact, he can't show us one single person in the Tanakh who died  
> and went to heaven.”
>
> But if you go back to what the Rabbi kindly explains, in Kohelet is  
> the
> passage, "The dust will return to the ground as it was, and the  
> spirit will
> return to G-d who gave it."
>
> If you wish to read up a little you can also hit this one;
>
> http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
>
> And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,  
> some to
> everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.   
> Daniel 12:2

Ralph: I have been acquainted with Daniel 12:2 for many years. It is  
the only specific reference to individual reference in the Tanakh/ 
Hebrew Bible. Daniel is also the latest book in it. It was written  
after belief in an afterlife became common among the Jews.
>
> So the Olam HaBa is indeed discussed in Tanakh and further  
> explained in the
> oral law and is one of the 13 Principles of the faith.
>
> 1.      G-d exists
> 2.      G-d is one and unique
> 3.      G-d is incorporeal
> 4.      G-d is eternal
> 5.      Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
> 6.      The words of the prophets are true
> 7.      Moses's prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of  
> the prophets
> 8.      The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral  
> Torah (teachings
> now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
> 9.      There will be no other Torah
> 10.     G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
> 11.     G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
> 12.     The Messiah will come
> 13.     The dead will be resurrected
>
> So if the Rambam says that these are the basics of Jewish belief,  
> why is it
> that your Christian Minister is to be believed in preference to he  
> of whom
> it was said, “Between Moses and Moses there was none like unto  
> Moses” ?
>
> So, Ralph, your trying to claim that you are some sort of guru on  
> what Jews
> believe was indeed insensitive anti-Semitism.  What we believe is  
> not part
> of your discussion of Christian ideals and morality and the  
> statements you
> made about Jewish beliefs were completely and utterly wrong.
>
> As for Christians using the Bible for justification of slavery,  
> this has
> what to do with me?  I think I clearly stated and have on this list  
> in the
> past that any use of Tanakh to justify slavery is unwarranted.  I  
> would also
> point out to you that Bartoleme De Las Casas quite appropriately  
> used the
> actual ideals formed in Tanakh to force the Spanish Crown into freeing
> Indian Slaves, so the Catholics did get the picture even if somewhat
> belatedly.
>
> I will leave it to the Catholics here to hammer you on that one.
>
> You also wrote this finale;
>
> “Ralph: I was commenting on Christian misuse of the Bible, as  
> anyone can
> plainly see. But Phil Nisbet has shown us that some Jews also  
> misuse the
> Bible.”
>
> You may have been commenting on the Christian Bible, but you did so  
> using
> examples of what you claimed Jews believe and have within our  
> sacred texts.
> The claims you made were wrong and had no place in your particular
> discussion.  If you want to rant back and forth with Doug Wilson or  
> any of
> his following, you can feel free to do so, but do not bring US into  
> your
> rants.  Doing so is anti-Semitic and you simply need to knock it off.

Ralph: I quoted from Jewish sources but you ignored them. So who is  
anti-Semitic? Knock off the name calling, Phil.