[Vision2020] It is a matter of trust?
Joan Opyr
auntiestablishment@hotmail.com
Wed, 19 May 2004 16:22:24 -0700
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Pat writes:
>So, once again Kerry waffles.
No, once again Kraut baffles.
Let me get this straight: in your view, offering complex answers to compl=
ex questions is waffling. So, is offering a simple answer to a complex q=
uestion by any chance simple-minded? =20
Keely Mix has already explained to you (with an elegance and patience I'm=
too jaded to emulate) the difference between the fundamental tenets of t=
he Christian faith and the current political positions that the Catholic =
hierarchy has chosen to adopt. Like it or not, the Catholic Church's pos=
itions do change over time. If they didn't, Gallileo would still be wron=
g, the earth would still be flat, and priests would still be allowed to m=
arry. If you compare the modern Catholic Church with its medieval ancest=
or, you'll find that the old gray mare, she ain't what she used to be. N=
ow, I'm not suggesting that the Church will ever change its collective mi=
nd on the subject of abortion, but is abortion the single defining issue =
of Catholicism? What is it, exactly, that makes a Catholic? Can you boi=
l it all down to Roe versus Wade?
I have the good fortune to count among my friends many devout Catholics. =
Some are pro-choice, some are anti-abortion, but all are thoughtful, rea=
sonable people of good conscience. It's entirely possible to mix devout =
belief with critical thought, but that I'm afraid that means that you won=
't be marching in lock-step with the Church hierarchy. Perhaps you'll si=
n and fall short of the glory of God, but, luckily for Christians, there'=
s a little thing called grace.
At the risk of repeating myself, can Pat or anyone else answer the questi=
on I asked in my earlier post: does George Bush's support for the death p=
enalty conflict in any way with Methodist doctrine? And, while I'm at it=
, how was his decision to make war on Iraq consistent with Christ's teach=
ing? Mr. Bush makes much of the fact that he's a devout Christian. Far =
be it from me to doubt the sincerity of his belief, but having espoused h=
is Christianity so loudly, so frequently, and so publicly, how is he meas=
uring up on the striving-to-be-Christ-like scale?
Then again, do we really want to judge one another's religious devotion? =
How close do any of us come to matching doctrine with deed? I don't eat=
pork and I try to avoid mixing milk and meat, but I've never kicked the =
shellfish habit. As a Jew, I can only hope that God is as flexible as Ma=
ry Lou Retton.
Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment =20
----- Original Message ----- =20
From: Joan Opyr =20
To: Vision2020 Moscow =20
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] It is a matter of trust?
Pat writes:
>I have also heard that Catholics all have sex with the priest in the con=
fessional...but I have no evidence of it myself. It >curious to me that e=
very email that responded to this completely ignored the part about Kerry=
and the other politicians >and their voting records that are opposite of=
the tenets of the church. Thats what my email was really about.
Consider this -- Kerry's pro-choice stance on abortion conflicts with Cat=
holic doctrine, but his opposition to the death penalty is in perfect har=
mony with the Church's teaching. So, if Kerry is not obedient to the Chu=
rch on all points of doctrine, is it necessarily the case that he is in u=
tter conflict? Or, as you seem to suggest, a hypocrite? Could it be tha=
t Kerry, like the rest of us, makes difficult and nuanced decisions accor=
ding to his conscience? And here's another point to consider: is opposit=
ion to abortion more important to the Catholic Church than opposition to =
the death penalty? I have read nothing to indicate that Catholic bishops=
are considering withholding the sacrament of communion from pro-death pe=
nalty politicians and parishioners. =20
George Bush is anti-choice, pro-death penalty, and Methodist. Where does=
the Methodist Church come down on these issues? Is Mr. Bush in any way =
in conflict with his church's teachings?
Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
PS: The Catholic Church strongly opposed the war in Iraq. How many Catho=
lic politicians -- or, for that matter, Catholics generally -- followed t=
he Pope's lead on that issue? =20
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c=
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<HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;b=
ackground-color:#ffffff; "><DIV>Pat writes:</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=
></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>>So, once again Kerry waf=
fles.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, once again Kraut baffles.</=
DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me get this straight: in your view, offer=
ing complex answers to complex questions is waffling. So, is&n=
bsp;offering a simple answer to a complex question by any chanc=
e simple-minded? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keely Mix has alread=
y explained to you (with an elegance and patience I'm too jaded to emulat=
e) the difference between the fundamental tenets of the Christian faith a=
nd the current political positions that the Catholic hierarchy&=
nbsp;has chosen to adopt. Like it or not, the Cathol=
ic Church's positions do change over time. If they didn't, Gal=
lileo would still be wrong, the earth would still be flat, and pries=
ts would still be allowed to marry. If you compare the modern Catho=
lic Church with its medieval ancestor, you'll find that the old=
gray mare, she ain't what she used to be. Now, I'm not suggesting =
that the Church will ever change its collective mind on the subject of ab=
ortion, but is abortion the single defining issue of Catholicism? W=
hat is it, exactly, that makes a Catholic? Can you boil it all=
down to Roe versus Wade?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have the go=
od fortune to count among my friends many devout Catholics. Some ar=
e pro-choice, some are anti-abortion, but all are thoughtful, reasonable =
people of good conscience. It's entirely possible to mix devout&nbs=
p;belief with critical thought, but that I'm afraid that means that =
you won't be marching in lock-step with the Church hierarchy. &=
nbsp;Perhaps you'll sin and fall short of the glory of God, but=
, luckily for Christians, there's a little thing called grace.</DIV>=
<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the risk of repeating myself, can Pat or =
anyone else answer the question I asked in my earlier post: doe=
s George Bush's support for the death penalty conflict in any way with&nb=
sp;Methodist doctrine? And, while I'm at it, how was his decis=
ion to make war on Iraq consistent with Christ's teaching? &nbs=
p;Mr. Bush makes much of the fact that he's a devout Christian. =
; Far be it from me to doubt the sincerity of his belief, but having espo=
used his Christianity so loudly, so frequently, and so publicly, how=
is he measuring up on the striving-to-be-Christ-like scale?</DIV> <DIV>&=
nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Then again, do we really want to judge one another's rel=
igious devotion? How close do any of us come to matc=
hing doctrine with deed? I don't eat pork and I try to avoid m=
ixing milk and meat, but I've never kicked the shellfish habit. =
; As a Jew, I can only hope that God is as flexible as Mary Lou Retton.</=
DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment </DIV> <=
DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">=
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MA=
RGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV =
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style=
=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B=
> <A title=3Dauntiestablishment@hotmail.com href=3D"mailto:auntiestablish=
ment@hotmail.com">Joan Opyr</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B=
>To:</B> <A title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com href=3D"mailto:vision2020@mosco=
w.com">Vision2020 Moscow</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Se=
nt:</B> Wednesday, May 19, 2004 10:05 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt a=
rial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] It is a matter of trust?</DIV> <DI=
V><BR></DIV> <DIV>Pat writes:</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> =
</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>>I have also heard that Catholics all h=
ave sex with the priest in the confessional...but I have no evidence of i=
t myself. It >curious to me that every email that responded to this co=
mpletely ignored the part about Kerry and the other politicians >and t=
heir voting records that are opposite of the tenets of the church. Thats =
what my email was really about.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FO=
NT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT fa=
ce=3DArial>Consider this -- Kerry's pro-choice stance on abortion conflic=
ts with Catholic doctrine, but his opposition to the death penalty is in =
perfect harmony with the Church's teaching. So, if Kerry is not obe=
dient to the Church on all points of doctrine, is it necessarily the case=
that he is in utter conflict? Or, as you seem to suggest, a hypocr=
ite? Could it be that Kerry, like the rest of us, makes d=
ifficult and nuanced decisions according to his conscience?&nbs=
p; And here's another point to consider: is opposition to abortion more i=
mportant to the Catholic Church than opposition to the death penalty?&nbs=
p; I have read nothing to indicate that Catholic bishops are conside=
ring withholding the sacrament of communion from pro-death penalty p=
oliticians and parishioners. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>=
</FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>George Bush is anti-choice, p=
ro-death penalty, and Methodist. Where does the Methodist=
Church come down on these issues? Is Mr. Bush in any way in c=
onflict with his church's teachings?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>=
<FONT face=3DArial>Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment</FONT></DIV> <DIV> =
;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>PS: The Catholic Church strongly opp=
osed the war in Iraq. How many Catholic politicians -- or, for=
that matter, Catholics generally -- followed the Pope's lead on tha=
t issue?</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR clear=3Dall> <HR> Get mo=
re from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <A href=3D"http://explorer.=
msn.com/">http://explorer.msn.com</A><BR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOT=
E></BODY></HTML><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Expl=
orer download : <a href=3D'http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.c=
om</a><br></p>
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