[Vision2020] Re: NSA student scores, Mr. Gier

[Eric Engerbretson]

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Mr. Gier, if you have "always praised NSA students for their=20
achievements" then I would say their instructors must be
pretty capable.

I don't know anything about standards of credentials, but my parents=20
were both educators, my dad had a doctorate and taught at WSU. In my=20
travels I have met a great many professors and teachers and listened to=20=

them discuss their workplaces, standards, etc. I traveled to and=20
performed at colleges in 49 states for many years-- and have overheard=20=

many things about which teachers are effective and which aren't.

What I've picked up is that ofttimes the people with the best=20
credentials are far from the best at what they do, and other
less qualified people have outstanding gifts and are the best at what=20
they do.  I spent the weekend as a guest at the Bohemian Club outside=20
of San Francisco, and listened to CEOs of major corporations talking=20
about what kind of people they want to hire. They all seemed to agree=20
that they would much rather hire a less officially qualified person who=20=

had "the gift" than a credential-ized person who wasn't gifted.

I see the same thing with musicians all the time.  I know dozens of=20
musicians with all sorts of degrees who couldn't mesmerize an audience=20=

for longer than ten minutes.  And most of the best=20
players/writers/singers I know never went to school for it.

I've also seen horrendous teachers, who should practically be arrested,=20=

who are still in their positions because of tenure,
and other "official" reasons.

Obviously, I'm not against accredidation-- I think that a school that=20
is doing a poor job, and is not giving the students what they are=20
paying for should be stopped in its tracks immediately. That is a form=20=

of theft.  But it is just so silly to attack a school that is clearly=20
giving its students one of the best education values in the country=20
(considering how low the tuition is, and how much they are learning).

As for someone hiring his own entire family tree to start a college,=20
more power to him-- if the students are happy with what they are=20
getting for their money!  The proof is in the pudding.  Take a bunch of=20=

NSA graduates, test them, compare those tests with the national=20
average, and then tell me they "deserve" a better education.  It's a=20
free market here, and these kids
are free to put their money where they want to.  I've met many=20
students. On average, I'm appalled at the writing and speaking=20
abilities of the average college student.  But I've been amazed at the=20=

quality of writing and speaking of NSA students whose work I've seen. =20=

This wouldn't be possible unless NSA professors new what they were=20
doing.

If this school is as bad as you say, then it will go bankrupt very=20
soon. If it continues to crank out students that put to shame those=20
from better qualified schools, then perhaps more schools should=20
consider hiring their sons, daughters, cousins and in-laws as=20
professors.

Committees and credential-watchers will debate and process forever.=20
Truly gifted people will always be too busy working their craft to be=20
looking over their shoulders at others' credentials, or caring about=20
their own. It's like Einstein (another person lacking proper=20
credentials) said: "Great minds have always encountered violent=20
opposition".  Taste the pudding and then argue about it.

They did the same thing to Jesus-- they ignored his miracles because he=20=

didn't have the proper "credentials"-- and because they couldn't put=20
him in one of their little boxes, they wouldn't hear what he was=20
saying, and refused to believe in the face of clear proof.  Perhaps=20
there are other similar examples in history? :=AC)

EE

P.S.  why are the liberals in this town so... conservative?

> In my letters to the editor and postings on V2020 I have always=20
> praised the NSA students for their achievements.  Several years ago, I=20=

> worked individually with one student on his senior thesis on Buddhism.=20=

>  He sat in on my Buddhism class and was one of the most active=20
> participants.
>
> My critique has to do with the NSA faculty, who fail to meet the=20
> minimum standard of credentials, even by the lowly TRACS standards. =20=

> In sum, these outstanding students deserve a better and more diverse=20=

> faculty, a faculty that does not tolerate academic fraud in its midst.
>
> Finally, can Mr. Engerbretson defend the policy of Wilson hiring all=20=

> the males of his immediate faculty instead of having open competition=20=

> for his faculty positions like other institutions have?
>
> Yours for academic integrity,
>
> Nick Gier


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Mr. Gier, if you have "always praised NSA students for their
achievements" then I would say their instructors must be=20

pretty capable.


I don't know anything about standards of credentials, but my parents
were both educators, my dad had a doctorate and taught at WSU. In my
travels I have met a great many professors and teachers and listened
to them discuss their workplaces, standards, etc. I traveled to and
performed at colleges in 49 states for many years-- and have overheard
many things about which teachers are effective and which aren't. =20


What I've picked up is that ofttimes the people with the best
credentials are far from the best at what they do, and other

less qualified people have outstanding gifts and are the best at what
they do.  I spent the weekend as a guest at the Bohemian Club outside
of San Francisco, and listened to CEOs of major corporations talking
about what kind of people they want to hire. They all seemed to agree
that they would much rather hire a less officially qualified person
who had "the gift" than a credential-ized person who wasn't gifted. =20


I see the same thing with musicians all the time.  I know dozens of
musicians with all sorts of degrees who couldn't mesmerize an audience
for longer than ten minutes.  And most of the best
players/writers/singers I know never went to school for it.


I've also seen horrendous teachers, who should practically be
arrested, who are still in their positions because of tenure,

and other "official" reasons.


Obviously, I'm not <italic>against </italic>accredidation-- I think
that a school that is doing a <italic>poor</italic> job, and is not
giving the students what they are paying for should be stopped in its
tracks immediately. That is a form of theft.  But it is just so silly
to attack a school that is clearly giving its students one of the best
education values in the country (considering how low the tuition is,
and how much they are learning). =20


As for someone hiring his own entire family tree to start a college,
more power to him-- if the students are happy with what they are
getting for their money!  The proof is in the pudding.  Take a bunch
of NSA graduates, test them, compare those tests with the national
average, and then tell me they "deserve" a better education.  It's a
free market here, and these kids

are free to put their money where they want to.  I've met many
students. On average, I'm appalled at the writing and speaking
abilities of the average college student.  But I've been amazed at the
quality of writing and speaking of NSA students whose work I've seen.=20
This wouldn't be possible unless NSA professors new what they were
doing.


If this school is as bad as you say, then it will go bankrupt very
soon. If it continues to crank out students that put to shame those
from better qualified schools, then perhaps more schools should
consider hiring their sons, daughters, cousins and in-laws as
professors.


Committees and credential-watchers will debate and process forever.
Truly gifted people will always be too busy working their craft to be
looking over their shoulders at others' credentials, or caring about
their own. It's like Einstein (another person lacking proper
credentials) said: "Great minds have always encountered violent
opposition".  Taste the pudding and <italic>then </italic>argue about
it.


They did the same thing to Jesus-- they ignored his miracles because
he didn't have the proper "credentials"-- and because they couldn't
put him in one of their little boxes, they wouldn't hear what he was
saying, and refused to believe in the face of clear proof.  Perhaps
there are other similar examples in history? :=AC)


EE


P.S.  why are the liberals in this town so... conservative?


<excerpt>In my letters to the editor and postings on V2020 I have
always praised the NSA students for their achievements.  Several years
ago, I worked individually with one student on his senior thesis on
Buddhism.  He sat in on my Buddhism class and was one of the most
active participants.


My critique has to do with the NSA faculty, who fail to meet the
minimum standard of credentials, even by the lowly TRACS standards.=20
In sum, these outstanding students deserve a better and more diverse
faculty, a faculty that does not tolerate academic fraud in its midst.


Finally, can Mr. Engerbretson defend the policy of Wilson hiring all
the males of his immediate faculty instead of having open competition
for his faculty positions like other institutions have?


Yours for academic integrity,


Nick Gier

</excerpt>


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