[Vision2020] Is this Fair???
Tami Stinebaugh
stin1624@uidaho.edu
Tue, 11 May 2004 15:26:06 -0700
I must say that I agree with these statements.
Donovan said:
"Second, I don't buy the notion that this is a lack of "Leadership"
or "Training" or "Experience". You don't need training, leadership,
or experience to know that shoving a light stick up someone's rectum
is WRONG. I have had zero military training, leadership, and experience, and
I along with the remaining 6 billion human inhabitants on the planet know
this action is wrong.
Finally, it is not an excuse to say, "I was only following
orders". This is the same garbage said by the Guards at the Nazi Concentration
Camps. I don't buy it. We all have free will. Committing terrible acts of
violence against prisoners only puts the very people you are suppose to be
defending at risk."
Are they saying that had they been trained properly then they would have known that it was wrong to torture people and commit terrible, humiliating acts against them? I do understand that had they been properly supervised this could have possibly been avoided, and I also understand that these soldiers should have been better informed of what treatment is required for prisoners, but to say that they sodomized, humiliated, and possibly even murdered people because nobody had trained them NOT to, seems a bit far fetched to me. (and I'm not saying anybody on vision 2020 said this, just that it seems to be what I'm hearing a lot in the media) Just my 2 cents...
Tami Stinebaugh
----- Original Message -----
From: Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 2:20 pm
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Is this Fair???
> Mr. Hansen,
>
> I really do wish you would at minimum give me the dignity of
> reading what I
> said before commenting on it. I in no way used the term "enlisted"
> or
> "officers". Everyone in the military is a "soldier first", which
> is the term
> I coined.
>
> First, the military has already punished 6 soldiers, they gave
> them a
> reprimand. Gee, a reprimand. That will like be on their record,
> OMG, that
> will show them we are serious.
>
> Second, I don't buy the notion that this is a lack of "Leadership"
> or
> "Training" or "Experience". You don't need training, leadership,
> or
> experience to know that shoving a light stick up someone's rectum
> is WRONG.
> I have had zero military training, leadership, and experience, and
> I along
> with the remaining 6 billion human inhabitants on the planet know
> this
> action is wrong.
>
> Third, those that are suppose to supervise these men and women are
> also
> guilty of negligence for not supervising and/or not taking action
> to stop
> this behavior. If the CIA or some other US entity ordered them to
> do this,
> then the soldiers ordered to do so should report it higher
> authorities, and
> if necessary, the media or their families to report it.
>
> Finally, it is not an excuse to say, "I was only following
> orders". This is
> the same garbage said by the Guards at the Nazi Concentration
> Camps. I don't
> buy it. We all have free will. Committing terrible acts of
> violence against
> prisoners only puts the very people you are suppose to be
> defending at risk.
> Right now at this moment we have newly revitalized enemies of the
> US
> scouring the Iraqi countryside looking for US Citizens to torture
> and kill
> in retaliation for these horrible actions.
>
> The people that are ultimately responsible for the torture of
> these
> individuals are the very ones that committed them. There is no,
> if, ands, or
> buts about it. Those that committed these atrocities clearly knew
> this was
> wrong, did it anyway, and thus should pay for their injustices.
> PERIOD.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Donovan J Arnold
>
>
> >From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen@moscow.com>
> >Reply-To: <thansen@moscow.com>
> >To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanarnold@hotmail.com>,
> <vision2020@moscow.com>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Is this Fair???
> >Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 06:06:57 -0700
> >
> >HUH???
> >
> >WHAT???
> >
> >Hello. Hello. Earth to Donovan Arnold. Come in Mr. Arnold.
> >
> >My guess (that is based on considerably more than whatever Mr.
> Arnold is
> >basing his comments on) is that this prison was being staffed by
> troops
> >that
> >were inexperienced and insufficiently trained and was being
> supervised by a
> >corrupt chain of command.
> >
> >To blame everything on the lower enlisted end of the spectrum is
> ignorant
> >at
> >best. Let the military conduct their preliminary investigaitons
> and
> >proceed
> >with their courts-martial. I am certain that those soldiers
> revealed in
> >the
> >photographs will be harshly dealt with. I just hope that the
> ripples of
> >this judicial tidal wave reach as far as field grade and general
> grade>officers.
> >
> >Two non-commissioned officers (who were assigned to this prisoner
> camp and
> >not under charges) were interviewed by Matt Lauer on The Today Show
> >yesterday morning. These NCOs stated that the general feeling
> among the
> >cadre was "the ends justifies the means".
> >
> >Yes. The lower enlisted were seriously wrong in believing in,
> and
> >applying,
> >that concept when interrogating Iraqi prisoners. But, more
> seriously, the
> >chain of command was wrong in letting it prevail.
> >
> >And one last item, Mr. Arnold. During my 20 years of service, I
> do not
> >recall seeing one boy or girl. What I saw were men and women in
> uniform>serving their country.
> >
> >Just some thoughts from an old soldier.
> >
> >Take care,
> >
> >Tom Hansen
> >SFC, U.S. Army (Retired)
> >
> >"Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but
> the
> >tranquil
> >and steady dedication of a lifetime." --Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On
> > > Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
> > > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 10:27 PM
> > > To: vision2020@moscow.com
> > > Subject: [Vision2020] Is this Fair???
> > >
> > >
> > > I was thinking about what would be the fair and decent thing to
> > > do with the
> > > soldiers that tortured, humiliated, and sodomized those in the
> > > Iraqi Prison.
> > >
> > > What I would do is leave all those who knew about it and did
> nothing and
> > > those that participated in the illegal behavior right there in
> > > Iraq. I would
> > > let the newly formed Iraqi government put them on trial along
> > > with all the
> > > others that will be tried for crimes against humanity. Then,
> if and when
> > > they have been tried and served their sentences in Iraqi, they
> should be
> > > brought back to the US and tried in a Court Martial.
> > >
> > > It seems only fair. Think about it, if a foreign government
> was
> >occupying
> > > the United States, and this torture was done to US citizens on
> > > our own soil,
> > > would we not ask to be able to try those who committed such
> > > atrocities? Or
> > > would we accept the foreigners to punish them?
> > >
> > > This really is disgusting, sad, and humiliating. There are
> > > something like a
> > > 1000 photos and MPEGS of this torture, including people being
> > > sodomized by a
> > > light stick. My stomach turns, and I feel so sad and ashamed
> that our
> > > military, or anyone in it, and certainly not an entire unit, can
> > > participate
> > > in this, take photos, and have smiles on their face as they are
> > > doing it. I
> > > wonder if this is going on elsewhere in Iraq. What really are
> the
> >chances
> > > someone could take 1000 photos unless it was happening more
> frequently.> >
> > > I really hope that everyone on this server list prays that
> this sort of
> > > thing stops everywhere, and that justice can come to those that
> > > participated
> > > and are responsible for the inhumane treatment of these people.
> > >
> > > This is something that will hurt all US Soldiers. We violate
> the Geneva
> > > Convention, and others will violate it against our captured
> troops. Look
> > > forward to this happening to our boys and girls in the future.
> > >
> > > So I think we should just leave these people over there. They
> > > obviously feel
> > > quiet comfortable anyway.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > Donovan J Arnold
> > >
> > > PS, I do not think this reflects the core values of the average
> > > soldier. But
> > > I think we need to bring them home if this is what 19 years
> old pregnant
> > > Privates end up doing over there. Philip Zimbardo did this
> > > experiment many
> > > years ago. The good people did the same thing they are doing
> in Iraq.
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Express yourself with the new version of MSN Messenger!
> Download today -
> > > it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
> > >
> > > _____________________________________________________
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > Vision2020@moscow.com
> > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
> > >
> >
> >_____________________________________________________
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > Vision2020@moscow.com
> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Best Restaurant Giveaway Ever! Vote for your favorites for a
> chance to win
> $1 million! http://local.msn.com/special/giveaway.asp
>
> _____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> Vision2020@moscow.com
> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>