[Vision2020] Rumsfeld, et al
JSullivan
jsullivan@moscow.com
Fri, 7 May 2004 21:28:43 -0700
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C4347A.45EE8310
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hmmmm... catching up on a lot of reading. Thank you to everyone who has =
taken the time to post. When I sent my previous post, I had not read any =
of these.
Thank you again,
Janesta=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Art Deco aka W. Fox=20
To: Vision 2020=20
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rumsfeld, et al
May 7, 2004
Red Cross Says It Warned U.S. of Prisoner Abuse Last Year, but Bremer =
First Heard in January
By Louis Meixler
Associated Press Writer=20
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP ) - The Red Cross said Friday that it had been =
warning of prisoner abuse in Iraq since shortly after the U.S.-led =
invasion. U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer said he first became aware =
of the allegations in January.=20
Also, a senior U.S. military officer in Iraq, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, =
said the damage to Iraqi-American ties caused by the scandal "is not =
irreparable," but he admitted that improving relations with Iraqis is =
"going to take some effort on behalf of the Americans."=20
President Bush, in an interview published in an Egyptian newspaper, =
acknowledged that "times are tough for the United States and the Middle =
East" and again apologized for the conduct of U.S. soldiers in Iraq, =
using the word "sorry" six times.=20
U.S. officials insist the abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison was =
limited and did not reflect policy.=20
However, the International Committee of the Red Cross said it warned =
American officials of prisoner abuse in Iraq more than a year ago and =
that the mistreatment was "not individual acts."=20
"There was a pattern and a system," Pierre Kraehenbuehl, the ICRC's =
director of operations, said in Geneva. Some of the actions were =
"tantamount to torture," he said.=20
The ICRC findings were "discussed at different moments between March =
and November 2003, either in direct face-to-face conversations or in =
written interventions," Kraehenbuehl said.=20
Some of the earlier discussions were with Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, =
commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade overseeing the prison.=20
Karpinski has been suspended by the military as part of its probe into =
the abuses.=20
In February, ICRC officials discussed a report on the subject with =
Bremer and Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the commander of U.S. forces in =
Iraq, Kraehenbuehl said.=20
Kraehenbuehl refused to give details of the report, but confirmed that =
a leaked ICRC report published Friday by The Wall Street Journal was =
genuine.=20
The report summarized information given to U.S. officials since =
shortly after Iraq was invaded in March 2003, Kraehenbuehl said.=20
It described prisoners kept naked in total darkness and male prisoners =
forced to wear women's underwear, the Journal said.=20
In another episode, nine men were arrested and beaten severely, and =
one of them died, the newspaper said.=20
"Ill-treatment during interrogation was not systematic, except with =
regard to persons arrested with suspected security offenses or deemed to =
have an intelligence value," the report said, according to the =
newspaper.=20
Kraehenbuehl said American authorities took action on some issues but =
"there were situations that remained unacceptable and difficult."=20
There also were problems with prisoners held by the British, =
Kraehenbuehl said, but he refused to elaborate.=20
On Friday, one former prisoner, Fawzi Faisal, told The Associated =
Press in Mosul he was arrested in December and brought to a lockup in =
northern Iraq, where "the Americans started to beat me severely and they =
put a sack on my head for seven days."=20
Faisal, who said he was arrested on suspicion of attacking Americans, =
was later brought to Abu Ghraib, where he said soldiers entered his room =
"with dogs in order to frighten us."=20
A British television station reported Friday that a young Iraqi girl =
held at Abu Ghraib was stripped naked and beaten while her brother heard =
her scream from another cell.=20
The ITV News report quoted Suhaib al-Baz, 24, a cameraman for the Arab =
satellite TV network Al-Jazeera, as saying he saw the abuse while he was =
being held at the prison.=20
Earlier, al-Baz told the AP he was stripped, beaten, spat upon and =
deprived of sleep during his 74-day stint in U.S. Army custody.=20
The Swiss-based ICRC is designated by the Geneva Conventions on =
warfare to visit prisoners of war and other people detained by an =
occupying power to ensure that countries respect obligations under the =
1949 accords.=20
Dan Senor, spokesman for the Coalition Provisional Authority, said =
Bremer was made aware of the accusation concerning prisoner abuse in =
January.=20
That month, the U.S. command said it began investigating allegations =
of mistreatment of prisoners at a coalition detention center, later =
identified as Abu Ghraib. The probe started after a soldier at the =
lockup said he could not tolerate abuses he witnessed and presented =
pictures to his superiors.=20
Senor said he was not sure when Bremer first saw photographs of the =
abuse. Those photographs - first shown last week on CBS - unleashed =
worldwide condemnation of the way America was treating prisoners in a =
country the United States says it invaded to liberate from Saddam =
Hussein's tyranny.=20
U.S. officials in Baghdad have been desperately trying to calm the =
shock and anger felt throughout the Arab world, where there is already =
deep suspicion about U.S. intentions in Iraq. The anger is intensified =
by the fact that Abu Ghraib was a notorious prison under Saddam where =
prisoners were tortured and executed.=20
"Obviously, our reputation has been damaged severely by the terrible =
and horrible acts, inhumane acts that were conducted on Iraqi =
prisoners," Bush told Egypt's al-Ahram newspaper.=20
"I can't tell you how sorry I am to them and their families for the =
humiliation. I'm also sorry because people are then able to say, 'Look =
how terrible America is.'"=20
Senor said the six soldiers who face criminal charges in the abuse =
scandal will be brought to trial and their hearings will be a "a fair =
and transparent process."=20
Army Pfc. Lynndie England, shown in photographs smiling and pointing =
at naked Iraqi prisoners, became the seventh soldier charged Friday by =
the military.=20
Kimmitt said the United States has "to show to Iraqis that U.S. =
justice works."=20
In Kufa, a radical Shiite Muslim cleric whose militia has fought U.S. =
troops rejected Bush's apology and demanded that the accused soldiers be =
tried in Iraq.=20
"What sort of freedom and democracy can we expect from you (Americans) =
when you take such joy in torturing Iraqi prisoners?" Muqtada al-Sadr =
said to worshippers at a mosque.=20
"America claims that it is fighting terrorism, and not sponsoring it, =
and is spreading justice and equality among peoples and freedom and =
democracy," al-Sadr said. "Now it is doing the same acts done by the =
small devil Saddam and in the same place where Iraqis were oppressed."=20
U.S. forces clashed with militiamen loyal to al-Sadr Friday, killing =
23 Iraqis.=20
AP-ES-05-07-04 2228EDT=20
This story can be found at: =
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAZ13O3ZTD.html
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Tom Hansen=20
To: Tbertruss@aol.com ; DonaldH675@aol.com ; vision2020@moscow.com=20
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Rumsfeld
In other words Rumsfeld is repeating what has been said by the =
media. =20
"This POW disgrace will take a couple generations for us to recover =
from."
Along with some "laughable optimism" we have the makings for a major =
sitcom.
Anybody have ideas for the story theme?
Tom Hansen
SFC, US Army (Retired)
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com =
[mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Tbertruss@aol.com
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:50 PM
To: DonaldH675@aol.com; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rumsfeld
Rose and All:
The whole PNAC bunch needs to be sent home, Rumsfeld included. =
However, Rumsfeld has publicly admitted that the war in Iraq has =
presented long term difficulties he did not expect, so he has recanted =
his earlier rather laughable optimism regarding the probability of a =
long term war.
Ted Moffett
------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C4347A.45EE8310
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>hmmmm... catching up on a lot of =
reading. Thank you=20
to everyone who has taken the time to post. When I sent my previous =
post, I had=20
not read any of these.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you again,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Janesta </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Ddeco@moscow.com href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco =
aka W. Fox</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 07, 2004 8:08 =
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] =
Rumsfeld, et=20
al</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>
<P>May 7, 2004</P>
<H2>Red Cross Says It Warned U.S. of Prisoner Abuse Last Year, but =
Bremer=20
First Heard in January</H2>By Louis Meixler<BR>Associated Press Writer =
<BR><BR>BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP ) - The Red Cross said Friday that it had =
been=20
warning of prisoner abuse in Iraq since shortly after the U.S.-led =
invasion.=20
U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer said he first became aware of the=20
allegations in January.=20
<P>Also, a senior U.S. military officer in Iraq, Brig. Gen. Mark =
Kimmitt, said=20
the damage to Iraqi-American ties caused by the scandal "is not =
irreparable,"=20
but he admitted that improving relations with Iraqis is "going to take =
some=20
effort on behalf of the Americans."=20
<P>President Bush, in an interview published in an Egyptian newspaper, =
acknowledged that "times are tough for the United States and the =
Middle East"=20
and again apologized for the conduct of U.S. soldiers in Iraq, using =
the word=20
"sorry" six times.=20
<P>U.S. officials insist the abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison =
was=20
limited and did not reflect policy.=20
<P>However, the International Committee of the Red Cross said it =
warned=20
American officials of prisoner abuse in Iraq more than a year ago and =
that the=20
mistreatment was "not individual acts."=20
<P>"There was a pattern and a system," Pierre Kraehenbuehl, the ICRC's =
director of operations, said in Geneva. Some of the actions were =
"tantamount=20
to torture," he said.=20
<P>The ICRC findings were "discussed at different moments between =
March and=20
November 2003, either in direct face-to-face conversations or in =
written=20
interventions," Kraehenbuehl said.=20
<P>Some of the earlier discussions were with Brig. Gen. Janis =
Karpinski,=20
commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade overseeing the prison.=20
<P>Karpinski has been suspended by the military as part of its probe =
into the=20
abuses.=20
<P>In February, ICRC officials discussed a report on the subject with =
Bremer=20
and Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq,=20
Kraehenbuehl said.=20
<P>Kraehenbuehl refused to give details of the report, but confirmed =
that a=20
leaked ICRC report published Friday by The Wall Street Journal was =
genuine.=20
<P>The report summarized information given to U.S. officials since =
shortly=20
after Iraq was invaded in March 2003, Kraehenbuehl said.=20
<P>It described prisoners kept naked in total darkness and male =
prisoners=20
forced to wear women's underwear, the Journal said.=20
<P>In another episode, nine men were arrested and beaten severely, and =
one of=20
them died, the newspaper said.=20
<P>"Ill-treatment during interrogation was not systematic, except with =
regard=20
to persons arrested with suspected security offenses or deemed to have =
an=20
intelligence value," the report said, according to the newspaper.=20
<P>Kraehenbuehl said American authorities took action on some issues =
but=20
"there were situations that remained unacceptable and difficult."=20
<P>There also were problems with prisoners held by the British, =
Kraehenbuehl=20
said, but he refused to elaborate.=20
<P>On Friday, one former prisoner, Fawzi Faisal, told The Associated =
Press in=20
Mosul he was arrested in December and brought to a lockup in northern =
Iraq,=20
where "the Americans started to beat me severely and they put a sack =
on my=20
head for seven days."=20
<P>Faisal, who said he was arrested on suspicion of attacking =
Americans, was=20
later brought to Abu Ghraib, where he said soldiers entered his room =
"with=20
dogs in order to frighten us."=20
<P>A British television station reported Friday that a young Iraqi =
girl held=20
at Abu Ghraib was stripped naked and beaten while her brother heard =
her scream=20
from another cell.=20
<P>The ITV News report quoted Suhaib al-Baz, 24, a cameraman for the =
Arab=20
satellite TV network Al-Jazeera, as saying he saw the abuse while he =
was being=20
held at the prison.=20
<P>Earlier, al-Baz told the AP he was stripped, beaten, spat upon and =
deprived=20
of sleep during his 74-day stint in U.S. Army custody.=20
<P>The Swiss-based ICRC is designated by the Geneva Conventions on =
warfare to=20
visit prisoners of war and other people detained by an occupying power =
to=20
ensure that countries respect obligations under the 1949 accords.=20
<P>Dan Senor, spokesman for the Coalition Provisional Authority, said =
Bremer=20
was made aware of the accusation concerning prisoner abuse in January. =
<P>That month, the U.S. command said it began investigating =
allegations of=20
mistreatment of prisoners at a coalition detention center, later =
identified as=20
Abu Ghraib. The probe started after a soldier at the lockup said he =
could not=20
tolerate abuses he witnessed and presented pictures to his superiors.=20
<P>Senor said he was not sure when Bremer first saw photographs of the =
abuse.=20
Those photographs - first shown last week on CBS - unleashed worldwide =
condemnation of the way America was treating prisoners in a country =
the United=20
States says it invaded to liberate from Saddam Hussein's tyranny.=20
<P>U.S. officials in Baghdad have been desperately trying to calm the =
shock=20
and anger felt throughout the Arab world, where there is already deep=20
suspicion about U.S. intentions in Iraq. The anger is intensified by =
the fact=20
that Abu Ghraib was a notorious prison under Saddam where prisoners =
were=20
tortured and executed.=20
<P>"Obviously, our reputation has been damaged severely by the =
terrible and=20
horrible acts, inhumane acts that were conducted on Iraqi prisoners," =
Bush=20
told Egypt's al-Ahram newspaper.=20
<P>"I can't tell you how sorry I am to them and their families for the =
humiliation. I'm also sorry because people are then able to say, 'Look =
how=20
terrible America is.'"=20
<P>Senor said the six soldiers who face criminal charges in the abuse =
scandal=20
will be brought to trial and their hearings will be a "a fair and =
transparent=20
process."=20
<P>Army Pfc. Lynndie England, shown in photographs smiling and =
pointing at=20
naked Iraqi prisoners, became the seventh soldier charged Friday by =
the=20
military.=20
<P>Kimmitt said the United States has "to show to Iraqis that U.S. =
justice=20
works."=20
<P>In Kufa, a radical Shiite Muslim cleric whose militia has fought =
U.S.=20
troops rejected Bush's apology and demanded that the accused soldiers =
be tried=20
in Iraq.=20
<P>"What sort of freedom and democracy can we expect from you =
(Americans) when=20
you take such joy in torturing Iraqi prisoners?" Muqtada al-Sadr said =
to=20
worshippers at a mosque.=20
<P>"America claims that it is fighting terrorism, and not sponsoring =
it, and=20
is spreading justice and equality among peoples and freedom and =
democracy,"=20
al-Sadr said. "Now it is doing the same acts done by the small devil =
Saddam=20
and in the same place where Iraqis were oppressed."=20
<P>U.S. forces clashed with militiamen loyal to al-Sadr Friday, =
killing 23=20
Iraqis.=20
<P>AP-ES-05-07-04 2228EDT <BR><BR><B>This story can be found at:</B> =
<A=20
=
href=3D"http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAZ13O3ZTD.html">http://ap.tbo.com=
/ap/breaking/MGAZ13O3ZTD.html</A><BR></P></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dthansen@moscow.com href=3D"mailto:thansen@moscow.com">Tom =
Hansen</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3DTbertruss@aol.com=20
href=3D"mailto:Tbertruss@aol.com">Tbertruss@aol.com</A> ; <A=20
title=3DDonaldH675@aol.com=20
href=3D"mailto:DonaldH675@aol.com">DonaldH675@aol.com</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 07, 2004 =
7:52=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020]=20
Rumsfeld</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D962104802-08052004><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>In other=20
words Rumsfeld is repeating what has been said by the media. =20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D962104802-08052004><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D962104802-08052004><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>"This POW=20
disgrace will take a couple generations for us to recover=20
from."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D962104802-08052004><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D962104802-08052004><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Along with=20
some "laughable optimism" we have the makings for a major=20
sitcom.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D962104802-08052004><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D962104802-08052004><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Anybody have=20
ideas for the story theme?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D962104802-08052004><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D962104802-08052004><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Tom=20
Hansen</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D962104802-08052004><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>SFC, US Army=20
(Retired)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com">vision2020-admin@moscow.com</=
A>=20
[mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]<B>On Behalf Of </B><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:Tbertruss@aol.com">Tbertruss@aol.com</A><BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Friday, May 07, 2004 4:50 PM<BR><B>To:</B> DonaldH675@aol.com;=20
vision2020@moscow.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020]=20
Rumsfeld<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
lang=3D0=20
face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"><BR>Rose =
and=20
All:<BR><BR>The whole PNAC bunch needs to be sent home, Rumsfeld=20
included. However, Rumsfeld has publicly admitted that the =
war in=20
Iraq has presented long term difficulties he did not expect, so he =
has=20
recanted his earlier rather laughable optimism regarding the =
probability=20
of a long term war.<BR><BR>Ted Moffett</FONT>=20
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C4347A.45EE8310--