[Vision2020] (Is it 1984?) Is not giving your name a criminal offense?
Donovan Arnold
donovanarnold@hotmail.com
Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:31:44 -0800
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<html><div style='background-color:'><P>You have zero rights. You have NO RIGHTS at all. The United States Government, and many others, can do what every they really want to do. If it can take out the electricity in a hospital killing off hundreds of patients, if the Government can give Saddam millions of dollars for chemical weapons to kill thousands of people, if they can tap your computer and phone lines or break into your house without a prior warrant, you have NO RIGHTS. You just think you do. What you get is based on how much money you have, that is it. Remember the Golden Rule, "Those with the Gold Make the Rules". Period. How many US Congress members do you know that live in a Mobile Home or need food stamps to eat? Government of the People, my ass. Government by the people, BS. Government for the People, yeah right, get real. Just rip up the Constitution, it ain't nothing but a piece of paper anymore. </P>
<DIV>
<P>Is it 1984?</P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>
<P>Donovan J Arnold<BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: "Ellen Roskovich" <gussie443@hotmail.com>
<DIV></DIV>>To: deco@moscow.com
<DIV></DIV>>CC: vision2020@moscow.com
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Is not giving your name a criminal offense?
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:23:02 -0800
<DIV></DIV>>
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From: "Ellen Roskovich" <gussie443@hotmail.com>
To: deco@moscow.com
Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Is not giving your name a criminal offense?
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<html><div style='background-color:'><P><BR><BR></P>
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<DIV class=RTE>
<P><FONT face="Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#0000cc size=3>I was hoping some local legal beagle would jump right in and give us a clue. There also used to be a lot of LEO's on the list. . . . what would/could they do faced with a similar situation?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Arial Black" color=#0000cc size=3>I have a little pamphlet from the ACLU, "What to do if you're stopped by the police", and it states "You don't have to answer a police officer's questions, but you must show your driver's license and registration when stopped in a car. In any other situations, you can't legally be arrested for refusing to identify yourself to a police officer." But it sounds like failure to identify yourself is at least a misdemeanor in the state of Nevada based on the story that appears below.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Arial Black" color=#0000cc size=3>It's really interesting, and maybe my ACLU info is a bit misleading, because in the same pamphlet it states: "It's not a crime to refuse to answer questions, but refusing to answer can make the police suspicious about you. You can't be arrested merely for refusing to identify yourself on the street."</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Arial Black" color=#0000cc size=3>I notice that the article below mentions "the Bush administration" so does that mean that since 9/11 Homeland Security has made changes to the law that would make my ACLU pamphlet obsolete? Must you identify yourself on demand? </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Arial Black" color=#0000cc size=3></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face="Arial Black" color=#0000cc size=3>Ellen A. Roskovich, Moscow, ID</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face="Arial Black" color=#0000cc size=3></FONT><BR><BR> </P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: "Art Deco aka W. Fox" <deco@moscow.com>
<DIV></DIV>>To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020@moscow.com>
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: [Vision2020] Is not giving your name a criminal offense?
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 07:23:40 -0800
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> >From today's NY Times:
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>It would be interesting to hear views across the entire Palouse region political
<DIV></DIV>>spectrum on this issue: Is it a crime to refuse to give your name to a law
<DIV></DIV>>enforcement officer?
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>W.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> Supreme Court Hears Case of Man Who Withheld ID
<DIV></DIV>> By LINDA GREENHOUSE
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> Published: March 23, 2004
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> ASHINGTON, March 22 - A Nevada rancher's refusal four years ago to tell a
<DIV></DIV>>deputy sheriff his name led to a Supreme Court argument on Monday on a question
<DIV></DIV>>that, surprisingly, the justices have never resolved: whether people can be
<DIV></DIV>>required to identify themselves when the police have some basis for suspicion
<DIV></DIV>>but lack the probable cause necessary for an arrest.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> Advertisement
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> The answer, in a case that has drawn intense interest from those who fear
<DIV></DIV>>increased government intrusion on personal privacy, appeared elusive.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> "A name itself is a neutral fact" that is neither incriminating nor an
<DIV></DIV>>undue invasion of privacy, Conrad Hafen, Nevada's senior deputy attorney
<DIV></DIV>>general, told the court in defense of a state statute that requires people to
<DIV></DIV>>identify themselves to the police if stopped "under circumstances which
<DIV></DIV>>reasonably indicate that the person has committed, is committing or is about to
<DIV></DIV>>commit a crime."
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> "It's a neutral fact that I'm wearing a pinstripe suit," Justice David H.
<DIV></DIV>>Souter told Mr. Hafen. But if someone who had just robbed a bank was reported to
<DIV></DIV>>be wearing a pinstripe suit, that fact if reported to the police might no longer
<DIV></DIV>>be so neutral, Justice Souter added.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> The Bush administration joined the state in defending the statute.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> Lawyers for Larry D. Hiibel, who is appealing his conviction for violating
<DIV></DIV>>the Nevada law, raised two constitutional challenges to the identification
<DIV></DIV>>requirement: that it amounts to an illegal search under the Fourth Amendment and
<DIV></DIV>>that it compels self-incrimination in violation of the Fifth Amendment.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> The Nevada Supreme Court upheld Mr. Hiibel's conviction, a misdemeanor,
<DIV></DIV>>and rejected his constitutional challenge to the state law.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> Standing by his pick-up truck on a rural road, he had been approached by a
<DIV></DIV>>deputy sheriff who was investigating a passing motorist's report that a man in
<DIV></DIV>>the truck had been hitting a woman. Mr. Hiibel's adult daughter was in the cab
<DIV></DIV>>of the truck .
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> The deputy, Lee Dove, asked Mr. Hiibel 11 times for identification. Mr.
<DIV></DIV>>Hiibel, saying he had done nothing wrong, refused to give his name and
<DIV></DIV>>challenged Deputy Dove to arrest him. Eventually, the deputy did arrest him. A
<DIV></DIV>>videotape of the incident, captured by a camera in the squad car, is on Mr.
<DIV></DIV>>Hiibel's Web site, www.hiibel.com. Mr. Hiibel was never charged with any
<DIV></DIV>>criminal offense beyond his refusal to identify himself.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> A landmark Supreme Court ruling in 1968, Terry v. Ohio, gave the police
<DIV></DIV>>the authority to briefly detain, question and conduct a pat-down search of
<DIV></DIV>>someone whose activities - casing a Cleveland storefront, in that case - gave
<DIV></DIV>>rise to "reasonable suspicion," short of probable cause for a formal arrest.
<DIV></DIV>>There is no dispute that the encounter between Mr. Hiibel and Deputy Dove was a
<DIV></DIV>>"Terry stop" within the meaning of that decision. The dispute in Hiibel v. Sixth
<DIV></DIV>>Judicial District Court, No. 03-5554, is over Mr. Hiibel's response, or lack of
<DIV></DIV>>response.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> Robert E. Dolan, Nevada's deputy state public defender, told the justices
<DIV></DIV>>that while the deputy "certainly had the right to ask" Mr. Hiibel for his name,
<DIV></DIV>>"equally so, Mr. Hiibel had the right not to respond."
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> Justice Antonin Scalia was openly skeptical. "What is the meaning of
<DIV></DIV>>Terry?" he asked. Did Mr. Dolan mean that the police were "allowed to ask
<DIV></DIV>>questions but shouldn't expect answers?"
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> Yes, the public defender replied; the state should not be permitted to
<DIV></DIV>>criminalize silence or to "extract data from a person."
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> Justice Stephen G. Breyer appeared to agree, suggesting a rule under which
<DIV></DIV>>the police can ask but the citizen does not have to answer. "Everyone can
<DIV></DIV>>understand that," Justice Breyer said, adding, "Why complicate this thing?"
<DIV></DIV>>Several Supreme Court decisions over the years have suggested such a rule, but
<DIV></DIV>>there has never been a formal opinion to that effect.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> One of the Fourth Amendment questions in the case is whether a person's
<DIV></DIV>>refusal to answer a seemingly benign identity question can convert a police
<DIV></DIV>>officer's "reasonable suspicion" into probable cause to make an arrest. Only
<DIV></DIV>>Justice Scalia appeared to endorse that prospect. "I would think any reasonable
<DIV></DIV>>citizen would answer," he observed.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> One of the many wrinkles in the case is that once a person is arrested,
<DIV></DIV>>the right to remain silent is guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment. To that extent,
<DIV></DIV>>a person who falls under a lesser degree of suspicion might be seen as having
<DIV></DIV>>less constitutional protection. Another wrinkle is that there is no claim that
<DIV></DIV>>the police cannot run a check on a license tag or - if the suspect is driving -
<DIV></DIV>>ask to see the driver's license. In this case, Mr. Hiibel's daughter was behind
<DIV></DIV>>the wheel, Mr. Hiibel was outside the truck, and the case was not treated as a
<DIV></DIV>>traffic investigation.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> As a matter of Fifth Amendment analysis, one question is whether giving
<DIV></DIV>>one's name is sufficiently "testimonial" to invoke the constitutional protection
<DIV></DIV>>against self-incrimination. "The question, it seems to me, is whether a name
<DIV></DIV>>itself has intrinsic testimonial consequences," Justice Anthony M. Kennedy told
<DIV></DIV>>Mr. Dolan, the public defender.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> If it did not, Mr. Dolan replied, "the government could require name
<DIV></DIV>>tags."
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> In briefs filed with the court, civil liberties groups warned that a
<DIV></DIV>>rejection of Mr. Hiibel's claim to privacy could open the door to such measures
<DIV></DIV>>as national identification cards. One group, the Electronic Privacy Information
<DIV></DIV>>Center, said that government databases were now of such "extraordinary scope"
<DIV></DIV>>that "systems of mass public surveillance" could result from a ruling that
<DIV></DIV>>authorized "coerced disclosure of identity."
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> But the justices appeared eager to avoid a broad ruling and to confine
<DIV></DIV>>their eventual decision to the specific context of a suspected crime. "We're all
<DIV></DIV>>concerned about national ID cards and all that kind of stuff," Justice John Paul
<DIV></DIV>>Stevens said at one point.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
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