[Vision2020] RE: Rose's posting

Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:42:35 -0500

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Visionaries and Rose,

-=20
Rose adds the following post script to her last LOS posting:
  PS  I suppose anyone who wishes to read more about Doug's position on =
the LOS organization  =E2=80=93 which he =E2=80=9Cmildly =
supports=E2=80=9D but did not join - could stop by the Christ Church =
office or email Doug directly and ask for a copy.

Or, Rose could just post it if she has it, or ask the brave (how so?, I =
would ask) contributor send it to her and post it.  Or I could do it.  =
Lest anyone think I am brave, the information is "free".  Though I, =
speaking for myself, would not have posted the whole letter  since it =
was not sent to "everyone".   However, having had this much published, =
however it would probably give the reader a more complete picture of =
Doug's point of the letter. =20

[Rose characterizes Doug's letter thusly:  In a heroic effort to explain =
the League of the South to his followers, Doug wrote this explanatory =
note.   Let's see....]

Kirkers,

In the midst of our current controversy with our local intoleristas, =
some of you many have wondered about the League of the South, and what =
our connection to that organization actually is. Steve Wilkins, whom you =
know, has served as a director for the organization. When the group was =
first formed Steve told them a couple things that bear on our situation =
here. First, he said the group had to be explicitly Christian or he =
could not be associated with it. He also told them that it could not be =
racist in any way, and if anything like that showed up, he was out of =
there. Steve has recently resigned from their board of directors, but =
*not* because there was any problem with the conditions above.=20

[This is the rest of the letter, the remainder of the body of the letter =
does not say anything not presented in the "free information" section]=20

Rather, it was the result of changing priorities. Some of the thinking =
about those changing priorities might be made clearer through something =
I recently wrote on the subject, which I have included for you below. =
Just consider this free information, and if you can use it, great.

If At First, You Don't Secede . . .
One response to the League of the South has the effect of making any =
desire for secession for cultural reasons look ludicrous. Now I am not a =
member of the League, and Steve has recently resigned from the board of =
directors because his priorities have been shifting. But let me say this =
to support the League (mildly), even though I do differ with them. I am =
not a member of the League because I believe that the severe problems =
this nation has do not admit of a political or cultural solution. There =
is no way out for us apart from a massive reformation of liturgy and =
doctrine in the evangelical church nationwide. That is where I want to =
concentrate all my energies, and that is what I understand Steve as also =
wanting to do. I believe that the League's attempts to stop what is =
happening are in the same category as the attempts being made by Focus =
on the Family to get prayer back in the government schools.

But let me defend them to this extent. They are not wanting to maintain =
a distinct Southern heritage because they are afraid that some Yankee =
judge will outlaw grits. Please note where we actually are as a =
nation--just a few weeks away from the full faith and credit clause of =
the mangled Constitution, courtesy of Massachusetts, being used to =
impose homosexual marriages on Alabama, Virginia, Idaho, and all the =
cities of the plain. Secession over such a cause is impossible (because =
of the current impotence of the church). But if the church were not =
impotent, and if a state were able to successfully secede from the Union =
rather than have such an abomination imposed upon them, it would be =
entirely noble. Not only would it be worth doing, it would be =
obligatory.

But the League of the South should not be anticipating large successes =
in their fight for traditional culture because the carrier of all =
culture is cultus, the worship of God. Because our general evangelical =
cultus is both inane and idolatrous, there will be no salvaging of our =
culture in the next few weeks. Reformation of the church is what we need =
to be eating, drinking, and breathing--all the time. As for the folks in =
the League of the South and Focus on the Family, God bless them. I wish =
them the best, and I understand why they want to get out there and make =
a direct challenge to the abortion culture, the homosexual culture, and =
so forth. But they will continue to fail because so many Christians =
still refuse to acknowledge Christ's ownership of their babies, refuse =
to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, refuse to =
teach them the glories of celebrating the Lord's Day, and refuse to =
conduct their worship services as though our triune God is holy, holy, =
holy.

The folks in the League are good diagnosticians. But they are not in a =
position to pursue the remedy, which will only be found if judgment =
begins with the household of God.

If I wanted an "explanation" of the league of the South, never mind an =
heroic one, I wouldn't be happy with that one.  It was, in fact, an =
explanation of the fundamental futility of the means used by that group. =
 Fundamental message:  "Don't like the way things are?  Worship God, and =
live out the gospel."  I would infer (which may not be what was implied) =
that Rose's anger is that it is not condemned the way she would condemn =
it.  And also, now that Steve Wilkins is not a member of the group (as =
Doug never was), the underlying inference, (which again may not be what =
was implied) I get is that Steve should've left earlier, and for =
different reasons, so we can keep the LOS thing going when dealing with =
Doug.  But note the thrust of the criticism is with the evangelical =
church.  I'd have a difficult time figuring that out from Rose's =
characterization.=20

I would add that unless Rose got her statement of Doug's mild support =
from another document then here is where she got it in this document:

"....   But let me say this to support the League (mildly), even though =
I do differ with them.   ....."

Whereas Rose writes:

        ....Doug's position on the LOS organization  =E2=80=93 which he =
=E2=80=9Cmildly supports=E2=80=9D but did not join - could ....

This may be a difference without a difference but there is a difference =
in context and flavor between the two statements.  It would have been =
fairer to provide the reader with context.  In another context people on =
this list might call that purposeful twisting of words. Not me =
(seriously).  But I do think it is sloppy usage and and a less than 100% =
faithful transposition of information.  Such is the nature of even =
non-lying words.  Let me stipulate that my letter might be characterized =
the same way (though I don't see it now).  But I'm *not* trying to lie.

Probably Rose wasn't lying, either.  I believe her general claims of =
honesty, since as a Christian I'm commanded to assume the best, even =
though I can't swear to the absolute truth (hence the "probably") about =
unknowns (like people's hearts).  And,  from other correspondence with =
Rose, this is and easy, and not grudging belief.  I say this even in the =
face of contradictions and omissions.  But the fact is, from Rose's post =
the reader does not have all the context that the reader of Doug's =
letter would have dad.   Facts, and truth, when dealing with =
conversations writings etc,  are tricky, often inconvenient, things and =
require a lot of research to get a good picture.  Or at least of a lot =
of research to make sure the negative conclusions are indeed true before =
publishing them.

In like manner I would ask if Rose has done sufficient investigation to =
see whether the "lies" she sees coming out of Christ Church are really =
lies, or insufficient information to reconcile apparently contradictory =
information.  Sounds like an opportunity for thorough research and =
presentation of all the facts.

Finally, this would be a good place to ask Rose, what are her sources =
for "covenantal lying"?  Sure, there are examples of deception in =
scripture which are commended.  The mid-wives lying to Pharaoh =
attempting to thwart his campaign of infanticide, for example.  =
Contemporarily put, this would be the "No, no Jew's in my attic" =
behavior in WWII.  (And, if more proof were needed, this was done by =
those progressive Europeans).  Beyond that I have never heard of the =
term prior to her reference and can't find this specific term on Google =
(this and a phone book are very handy research tools).  How about a few =
references, Rose?  Such thinking might be defended scriptural, or need =
to be condemned as unscriptural license, but it would depend on having =
of more of the W's than "What".=20

Not "covenantally lying"  (unless, I suppose, I am).

Cheers,=20

David Douglas

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<DIV><SPAN class=3D628294214-17012004><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
color=3D#000080=20
size=3D3><EM>Visionaries and Rose,</EM></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D628294214-17012004><EM><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =

color=3D#000080 size=3D3></FONT></EM></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
color=3D#ffffff>-</FONT>&nbsp;<BR><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
color=3D#000080=20
size=3D3><EM>Rose adds the following post script to her last LOS=20
posting:</EM></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <P class=3DMsoNormal=20
  style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3>PS<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>I suppose anyone who wishes to read more about Doug's position =
on the=20
  LOS organization <SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>=E2=80=93 which he=20
  =E2=80=9Cmildly supports=E2=80=9D but did not join - could stop by the =
Christ Church office or=20
  email Doug directly and ask for a copy.</FONT></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal=20
  style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>Or,&nbsp;Rose could just post it if she=20
has&nbsp;it, or ask the brave (how so?, I would ask) contributor send it =
to her=20
and post it.&nbsp; Or I could do it.&nbsp; Lest anyone think I am=20
brave,&nbsp;the information is&nbsp;"free".&nbsp; Though I, speaking for =

myself,&nbsp;would not have&nbsp;posted the whole letter =
</EM>&nbsp;<EM>since it=20
was not sent to "everyone".&nbsp; &nbsp;However, having had this much =
published,=20
however it would probably give the reader a more complete picture of =
Doug's=20
point of the letter.&nbsp; </EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>[Rose characterizes Doug's letter =
thusly:&nbsp;=20
</EM><FONT color=3D#000000>In a heroic effort to explain the League of =
the South=20
to his followers,&nbsp;Doug wrote this explanatory =
note.&nbsp;</FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000080><EM>&nbsp; </EM></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT =

face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>Let's =
see....]</EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>Kirkers,</FONT><BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT =

face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004>In the midst of our =
current=20
controversy with our local intoleristas, some of you many have wondered =
about=20
the League of the South, and what our connection to that organization =
actually=20
is. Steve Wilkins, whom you know, has served as a director for the =
organization.=20
When the group was first formed Steve told them a couple things that =
bear on our=20
situation here. First, he said the group had to be explicitly Christian =
or he=20
could not be associated with it. He also told them that it could not be =
racist=20
in any way, and if anything like that showed up, he was out of there. =
Steve has=20
recently resigned from their board of directors, but *not* because there =
was any=20
problem with the conditions above. =

<FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;
<FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004>[This is the rest of the letter, the =
remainder of=20
the body of the letter does not say anything not presented in the "free=20
information" section]&nbsp;
<FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004>&nbsp;
<FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004>Rather, it was the =
result of=20
changing priorities. Some of the thinking about those changing =
priorities might=20
be made clearer through something I recently wrote on the subject, which =
I have=20
included for you below. Just consider this free information, and if you =
can use=20
it, great. If At First, You Don't Secede . . . One =
response to the=20
League of the South has the effect of making any desire for secession =
for=20
cultural reasons look ludicrous. Now I am not a member of the League, =
and Steve=20
has recently resigned from the board of directors because his priorities =
have=20
been shifting. But let me say this to support the League (mildly), even =
though I=20
do differ with them. I am not a member of the League because I believe =
that the=20
severe problems this nation has do not admit of a political or cultural=20
solution. There is no way out for us apart from a massive reformation of =
liturgy=20
and doctrine in the evangelical church nationwide. That is where I want =
to=20
concentrate all my energies, and that is what I understand Steve as also =
wanting=20
to do. I believe that the League's attempts to stop what is happening =
are in the=20
same category as the attempts being made by Focus on the Family to get =
prayer=20
back in the government schools. But let me defend them to this =
extent.=20
They are not wanting to maintain a distinct Southern heritage because =
they are=20
afraid that some Yankee judge will outlaw grits. Please note where we =
actually=20
are as a nation--just a few weeks away from the full faith and credit =
clause of=20
the mangled Constitution, courtesy of Massachusetts, being used to =
impose=20
homosexual marriages on Alabama, Virginia, Idaho, and all the cities of =
the=20
plain. Secession over such a cause is impossible (because of the current =

impotence of the church). But if the church were not impotent, and if a =
state=20
were able to successfully secede from the Union rather than have such an =

abomination imposed upon them, it would be entirely noble. Not only =
would it be=20
worth doing, it would be obligatory.<BR><BR>But the League of the South =
should=20
not be anticipating large successes in their fight for traditional =
culture=20
because the carrier of all culture is cultus, the worship of God. =
Because our=20
general evangelical cultus is both inane and idolatrous, there will be =
no=20
salvaging of our culture in the next few weeks. Reformation of the =
church is=20
what we need to be eating, drinking, and breathing--all the time. As for =
the=20
folks in the League of the South and Focus on the Family, God bless =
them. I wish=20
them the best, and I understand why they want to get out there and make =
a direct=20
challenge to the abortion culture, the homosexual culture, and so forth. =
But=20
they will continue to fail because so many Christians still refuse to=20
acknowledge Christ's ownership of their babies, refuse to bring them up =
in the=20
nurture and admonition of the Lord, refuse to teach them the glories of=20
celebrating the Lord's Day, and refuse to conduct their worship services =
as=20
though our triune God is holy, holy, holy.<BR><BR>The folks in the =
League are=20
good diagnosticians. But they are not in a position to pursue the =
remedy, which=20
will only be found if judgment begins with the household of=20
God.</FONT><BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FON=
T>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>If I wanted an "explanation" of the =
league of the=20
South, never mind an heroic one, I wouldn't be happy with that=20
one.&nbsp;&nbsp;It was, in fact, an explanation of=20
the&nbsp;fundamental&nbsp;futility of the means&nbsp;used by that =
group.&nbsp;=20
Fundamental message:&nbsp; "Don't like the way things are?&nbsp; Worship =
God,=20
and live out the gospel."&nbsp; I would infer (which may not be what was =

implied) that Rose's anger is that it is not condemned the way she would =
condemn=20
it.&nbsp; And also, now that Steve Wilkins is not a member&nbsp;of the =
group (as=20
Doug never was), the underlying inference, (which again may not be what =
was=20
implied)&nbsp;I get&nbsp;is that Steve should've left earlier, and for =
different=20
reasons,&nbsp;so we can keep the LOS thing going when dealing with =
Doug.&nbsp;=20
But note the thrust of the criticism is with the evangelical=20
church.&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>I'd have a =
difficult time=20
figuring that out from Rose's=20
characterization.&nbsp;</EM></SPAN></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>I would add that unless Rose got her =
statement of=20
Doug's mild support from another document then here =
is&nbsp;where&nbsp;she got=20
it in this document:<BR></P></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><FONT color=3D#000000>"....&nbsp;&nbsp; But =
let me say=20
this to support the League (mildly), even though I do differ with=20
them.&nbsp;&nbsp; ....."</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><FONT=20
color=3D#000000></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>Whereas Rose=20
writes:</EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D3><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
....Doug's=20
position on the LOS organization <SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>=E2=80=93=20
which he =E2=80=9Cmildly supports=E2=80=9D but did not join - could=20
....</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D3><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P></SPAN></FONT><=
/FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>This may be a difference without a =
difference but=20
there is a difference in context and flavor between the two=20
statements.&nbsp;&nbsp;It would have been fairer to provide the reader =
with=20
context.&nbsp; In another context people on this list might call that =
purposeful=20
twisting of words. Not me (seriously).&nbsp;&nbsp;But I do think it is =
sloppy=20
usage and and a less than 100% faithful transposition of =
information.&nbsp; Such=20
is the nature of even non-lying words.&nbsp; Let me stipulate that my =
letter=20
might be characterized the same way (though I don't see it now).&nbsp; =
But I'm=20
*not* trying to=20
lie.</EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>Probably Rose wasn't lying, =
either.&nbsp;&nbsp;I=20
believe her general&nbsp;claims of honesty, since as a Christian I'm =
commanded=20
to assume the best, even though I can't swear to the absolute truth =
(hence the=20
"probably") about unknowns (like people's hearts).&nbsp; And,&nbsp; from =
other=20
correspondence with Rose, this is&nbsp;and easy, and not grudging =
belief.&nbsp;=20
I say this&nbsp;even in the face&nbsp;of&nbsp;contradictions=20
and&nbsp;omissions.&nbsp;&nbsp;But the fact is, from Rose's post the =
reader does=20
not&nbsp;have all the context&nbsp;that the reader of Doug's letter =
would have=20
dad.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><SPAN =
class=3D628294214-17012004><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>Facts, and truth, when dealing with =
conversations=20
writings etc,&nbsp; are tricky, often inconvenient, things and require a =
lot of=20
research to get a good picture.&nbsp; Or at least of a lot of research =
to make=20
sure the negative conclusions are indeed true before publishing=20
them.</EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><SPAN =
class=3D628294214-17012004><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></=
FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><SPAN =
class=3D628294214-17012004><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>In like&nbsp;manner I would ask if Rose =
has done=20
sufficient investigation to see whether the "lies" she sees coming out =
of Christ=20
Church are really lies, or insufficient information to reconcile =
apparently=20
contradictory information.&nbsp; Sounds like an opportunity for thorough =

research and presentation of all the =
facts.</EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
></SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>Finally, this&nbsp;would be a good place =
to ask=20
Rose, what are her&nbsp;sources for "covenantal lying"?&nbsp; Sure, =
there=20
are&nbsp;examples of&nbsp;deception in scripture which are =
commended.&nbsp; The=20
mid-wives lying to Pharaoh attempting to thwart his campaign of =
infanticide, for=20
example.&nbsp; Contemporarily put, this would be the "No, no Jew's in my =
attic"=20
behavior in WWII.&nbsp; (And, if more proof were needed, this&nbsp;was =
done by=20
those progressive Europeans).&nbsp; Beyond that I have never heard of =
the term=20
prior to her reference and can't find this specific term on Google (this =
and a=20
phone book are very handy research tools).&nbsp; How about a few =
references,=20
Rose?&nbsp; Such thinking might be defended scriptural, or need to be =
condemned=20
as unscriptural license, but it would depend on&nbsp;having of more of =
the W's=20
than&nbsp;"What".&nbsp;</EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>Not "covenantally lying"&nbsp; (unless,=20
I&nbsp;suppose, I&nbsp;am).</EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>Cheers, =
</EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM>David =
Douglas</EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D628294214-17012004><EM></EM>&nbsp;</P></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT=
></BODY></HTML>

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