[Vision2020] It's all about the costs and who pays!
Jeff Harkins
jeffh at moscow.com
Wed Dec 22 12:34:29 PST 2004
And here I thought you were an educated fellow. Tsk, tsk - my fault for
the false assumption.
"Earnings" are not the issue. The resources that are required to
compensate those "earnings" are the issue.
And those costs earned by those slaving away would be paid by whom? And
the costs of the allowances and medical benefits afforded to workers by the
government are paid by whom?
And yes indeed, the model is used by N. Korea.
And yes indeed, that is exactly what Marx and Engels advocated in the
Manifesto.
No doubt you have read and mastered the blatant illogical arguments,
including:
Owing to the extensive use of machinery, and to the division of labor, the
work of the proletarians has lost all individual character, and,
consequently, all charm for the workman. He becomes an appendage of the
machine, and it is only the most simple, most monotonous, and most easily
acquired knack, that is required of him. Hence, the cost of production of a
workman is restricted, almost entirely, to the means of subsistence that he
requires for maintenance, and for the propagation of his race. But the
price of a commodity, and therefore also of labor, is equal to its cost of
production. In proportion, therefore, as the repulsiveness of the work
increases, the wage decreases. What is more, in proportion as the use of
machinery and division of labor increases, in the same proportion the
burden of toil also increases, whether by prolongation of the working
hours, by the increase of the work exacted in a given time, or by increased
speed of machinery, etc.
I am curious, who exactly would decide an individual's "basic needs"? You??
Your ideas have been tried and have failed - and failed at the cost of
hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of lives. There is no place for
that kind of thinking or that kind of policy in a society that values
private property rights, free enterprise and individual liberties. The
invisible hand of competition assures a fair opportunity for all to
prosper. No guarantees - but life has no guarantees - except of course,
death and taxes. Successful efforts are rewarded - unsuccessful efforts
are not - and they shouldn't be - those costs are always passed on to
everyone else.
No, the ultimate responsibility for each individual is to find a way to
"pay their own way" through life. And the path we provide in this society
is to make education available and affordable for every citizen. Through
education and initiative, individuals enhance their skills and knowledge
and hence enhance their value to their fellow citizens - thereby improving
their "stock in life". Simple and it works - and everyone wins. Before
you engage in advocating communist ideology, read some Friedman, Stigler,
McKensie or Tullock. Then we can have a good dialogue.
At 12:24 AM 12/22/2004, you wrote:
>Jeff,
>
>If you bothered to read what I said, you would not need to "wonder who
>will pay for the allowances". The workers would earn them as they slave
>away working for greedy capitalists that think the world ought to thank
>them for bringing $5 hour jobs to the community.
>This model is not used by North Korea, it is used the United States
>government. The Government pays many employees allowances and medical
>care. This is not done by the unpatriotic capitalists. If we were to make
>companies follow a policy that works for the military and other government
>workers, it would ensure that American workers basic needs are met. This
>would also help curb problems associated with inflation and over inflated
>housing prices that have occurred in every county in America except four
>in the last 10 years. It would also help the millions of Americans out of
>poverty, most of which are children.
>
>Jeff, perhaps you should skip down to Book People and ask for a book on
>Karl Marx; it is clear to me that you don't understand what he is about,
>and the huge differences between what I am advocating and what he advocated.
>
>Take Care,
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>>From: Jeff Harkins <jeffh at moscow.com>
>>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Merry Christmas
>>Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:50:52 -0800
>>
>>Hmmm, wonder who will pay for all those allowances. This is very close
>>to the scheme that Marx advocated. Sure helped the Russian economy! One
>>real advantage - you can close most of the public schools - the lower
>>econ levels really don't need the education - because they have the rest
>>of the working class providing for a "decent standard of living" without
>>having to advance themselves.
>>
>>And you don't have to go to the trouble of teaching them to fish - they
>>just go to the state managed food coop for their weekly ration of lutefisk.
>>
>>I think Korea still uses this model - some of you might want to check it out.
>>
>>At 09:36 PM 12/21/2004, you wrote:
>>
>>>Ted,
>>>
>>>You will find that many capitalists believe that raising the minimum
>>>wage is pointless and only causes inflation. They hold to the notion
>>>that when you raise the wages of the lower 10-25% of the population it
>>>cause a wave of pay increases to all the other workers. In order to pay
>>>for the increases businesses raise prices, and thus the gains (buying
>>>power) made by the wage increases are lost to inflation. Now, I happen
>>>to believe that this is in part true because the top wage earners in the
>>>company are also the decision makers and they are not going to take pay
>>>cuts to give decent wages to the workers.
>>>
>>>I suggest what we do is stop trying to argue with them and force them to
>>>admit their greed by coming up with an alternative form of paying
>>>workers. I would require companies to pay allowances on top of small wages.
>>>
>>>Require the company to pay housing, medical, food, clothing, and
>>>transportation. Every full time employee, working 32 hours a week or
>>>more, should get a minimum allowance for each to afford their basic
>>>needs in addition to their salary. For workers that receive less than 32
>>>hours, pay them benefits in equal proportion, like if they work 16 hours
>>>a week, they get half the allowances as those working 32 hours. The
>>>allowances would be based on the Cost of living index for that area,
>>>within 30 miles.
>>>
>>>This would be the best way to ensure that people are living a decent
>>>quality of life. Housing is becoming increasing impossible to afford,
>>>and medical care already is unaffordable for those living on minimum wage.
>>>
>>>Take care,
>>>
>>>Donovan J Arnold
>>>
>>>>From: Tbertruss at aol.com
>>>>To: kjajmix1 at msn.com, vision2020 at moscow.com, auntiestablishment at hotmail.com
>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Merry Christmas
>>>>Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:48:03 EST
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Keely:
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for your reply.
>>>>
>>>>I considered that Christ might be a conservative thinker who though
>>>>believing
>>>>fervently in helping the poor and disadvantaged, would advocate doing it
>>>>without the governments involvement, by giving aid directly to those
>>>>who need it
>>>>or through private charity organizations. So taxes to help the poor
>>>>would not
>>>>be the approach of a conservative altruist. But the minimum wage issue is
>>>>different. For those who want to earn their way and not accept charity,
>>>>especially single parents, the low minimum wage as set by federal
>>>>standards (many
>>>>states have already raised the minimum wage) is just too low.
>>>>
>>>>We are in an age of astonishing CEO salaries, bonuses and golden
>>>>parachutes,
>>>>yet these same corporations will lobby against raising the minimum wage.
>>>>So
>>>>it is OK to pay Jane Fat Cat CEO an extra million, yet if you advocate
>>>>taking
>>>>that extra million, which the CEO already making millions does not
>>>>really need
>>>>to feed, clothe and house her children, and suggest giving it via a pay
>>>>increase to working single parents who are at the bottom, suddenly you
>>>>are a
>>>>"liberal" advocating antibusiness policies. Why then don't we just do
>>>>away with the
>>>>minimum wage, and let the wonderful "free" market place, that seems to have
>>>>acquired status as a magical solution to humanities problems, work without
>>>>nefarious government regulation? After all, ANY minimum wage is government
>>>>regulation of business. Many corporations would love this! No need to
>>>>out source or
>>>>move to China, just pay workers in the USA $.80 an hour.
>>>>
>>>>I envision Christ busting into the board meeting of a Fortune 500
>>>>corporation
>>>>and raising a ruckus...
>>>>
>>>>I wonder....
>>>>
>>>>Ted Moffett
>>>>_____________________________________________________
>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>>>
>>>
>>>_____________________________________________________
>>>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
>>>communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>>
>>
>>_____________________________________________________
>>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
>>communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>
>
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