[Vision2020] Reading [Resubmitted-- Apparently Lost,
like several others]
Donovan Arnold
donovanarnold at hotmail.com
Sun Dec 5 15:35:57 PST 2004
Wayne,
To be honest, nobody cares how many more lives were lost because the US went
in or not. If they did, Bush would be out of office. Now matter how you
swing the numbers, those 1000+ US troops would be alive and well today if it
were not for our brainless leader George W. Bush. That is the only fact I
need to know. That is the only fact that should matter to any real American.
People simply placate their guilty feelings by sticking yellow magnets in
the shape of a ribbon on the trunk of their cars saying "Support Our
Troops". Someone ought to explain that supporting our troops is not sending
them off to die in a hot desert hell on the other side of the world full of
people that are trying to kill them. Also, sticking a magnet on the back of
your car doesn't help a troop unless you plan on driving your Lexus to
Mosul.
Take Care,
Donovan J Arnold
>From: "Art Deco aka W. Fox" <deco at moscow.com>
>To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: [Vision2020] Reading [Resubmitted-- Apparently Lost,like several
>others]
>Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:35:05 -0800
>
>Pat, et al,
>
>No one on this list has ever justified those actions of Saddam Hussein
>which
>resulted in torture, death, corruption, etc. He was, in this regard, a
>most
>despicable monster. He did, however like Tito in Yugoslavia, keep the
>country
>together and helped to foster a great number of beneficial economic and
>other
>changes.
>
>As a measure of Saddam's overall performance, perhaps someone on this list
>could research the number of deaths in Iraq due to violence and war related
>activities since our invasion and compare them to the number in a period of
>equal length just preceding our invasion. Also someone might research the
>growth/destruction of infrastructure before and after the war. All such
>estimates will be iffy but might give some estimate of the effect of the
>invasion on the quality of life and the amount of human suffering in Iraq
>today.
>
>Most readers have probably seen the news reports of another effect of the
>war:
>a great amount of disease and deaths resulting from the lack of a sanitary
>water
>supply and sanitary sewage disposal which lack has resulted from the
>indiscriminate destruction of critical infrastructure.
>
>We (America) are stuck in a moral abyss: We cannot morally leave things as
>they
>are now. In my opinion we should make things as good as they were before
>the
>invasion and also attempt to compensate the innocent victims of the effects
>of
>our invasion. By staying, however, we are creating more problems and
>suffering
>whose effects are likely to last beyond the lifetimes of most of us. We
>may be
>facing problems that are impossible to solve at least in terms that are
>acceptable to us now.
>
>Pat does not like the radical Islamic terrorists. I would guess that all V
>2020ers do not either. I do not like terrorists of any religion who use
>various
>elements of their religious/superstitious belief to forward their religious
>and
>non-religious (power, control, enrichment, ego-satisfaction) ends.
>
>A look at history shows the use of religious belief to justify war, death,
>suffering, etc. is not new. Although some religious beliefs and movements
>have
>benefited humankind greatly, religious belief in general has been and is a
>leading and most exacerbating factor in most wars, atrocious infliction of
>human
>suffering, the non-natural caused sufferings of humankind, etc.
>
>A look at history and/or the daily news shows that each religious side
>claims
>and apparently believes that their alleged deities are allegedly greatly in
>favor of their atrocious actions however contrary to the main tenets of
>their
>religious beliefs these actions are. Unfortunately, there is no way for
>any
>side, so far, to convincingly demonstrate the truth of their claims save
>cling
>tenaciously and often cruelly to their delusional fantasies.
>
>Wayne
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pat Kraut
> To: vision2020
> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Reading
>
>
> OK, call me stupid but I fail to see what George the 1st has to do with
> getting rid of Saddam now. Except that it would have been nice if he had
> crossed the UN and taken him out back then. We are one step from
>elections
> in Iraq...will it go well...maybe not...BUT it is a chance for Iraq to
>pull
> itself out of the mire. The insurgents don't want to see the elections
> succeed and will do all they can to kill and maim all involved but, just
>as
> in any beginning there will be those who will stand up for liberty. Can
>you
> not see the good that can come from this? Do you live so far to the dark
> side that you see no light at all? Once again I ask you if it had been a
> democrat with 'the right war at the right time with France and Germany
> involved' would you have been happier? Maybe seen the good to come of
> sending troops to help?? All those people died or were maimed at the
>hand of
> Saddam with no hope and you cannot seem to understand that at all...why
>do
> you not have any compassion for them in any way? Can you not see the
>hope
> that is there now?? I don't care that George the 1st blew it following
>the
> UN, I don't care that Clinton the coward should have gotten Saddam, I
>care
> about today, NOW. If you understand how the 1st should have taken him
>out
> why are you so failing to see the 2nds leap to really help?
> I am trying to understand
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> To: "'Pat Kraut'" <pkraut at moscow.com>; "'vision2020'"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 6:04 AM
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Reading
>
>
> How soon Ms. Kraut forgets George the First.
>
> Remember the Iraq War, Part 1? Remember when George the First promised
>the
> American citizenry that the war was going to be fought by generals and
>not
> politicians? That ended up being a lie.
>
> Remember when George the First promised the Kurds that he would support
>them
> in their fight for liberation? Remember when General Schwartzkopf said
>that
> he was within 24 hours of entering (and liberating) Baghdad? George the
> First failed in his promise to the Kurds and told Schwartzkopf to cool
>his
> heals as he (George the First) arranged for a peace agreement with
>Saddam.
>
> You are absolutely right, Ms. Kraut. Thousands and thousands died
>before
> George II "liberated" Iraq. But alot of that blood is on George the
>First's
> hands.
>
> And now there is American blood involved in this Iraqi civil war in
>which
> George II has volunteered 1,500 more troops.
>
> Well . . . As Country Joe McDonald (of Country Joe and the Fish) once
>said:
>
> "Well, it's one two three
> What are we fighting for?"
>
> Until we learn . . .
>
> Take care of yourselves and each other.
>
> Tom "49er" Hansen
>
> We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some
>are
> dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors....but they
>all
> exist very nicely in the same box.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
>[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> On Behalf Of Pat Kraut
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:45 PM
> To: vision2020
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Reading
>
> When I have questioned the Palestinians on this site I have had many
>emails
> that tried to explain their actions to me as if there could be some
> justification for the behavior. I know about the problem. It is much
>more
> complex than any one story can ever convey. But, I also know that peace
>as
> described by Palistians is not the same as peace described by Israeli
>terms
> or mine. It will take much more than two states to get past the hatred
> perpetrated by Palistian mothers among others. Although two states would
>be
> a start I'd be willing to try I wonder if it won't be another
> Ireland...always at war.
> I am always in amazement of how easily some dismiss the many thousands
>who
> died in Iraq before we got there with no hope of any good to come of it.
> Those who were gassed, maimed, raped and living in total fear at the
>hands
> of Saddam's sons with no recourse for help. Yes, many people have died.
>It
> is usually the case in a war but I believe it is for a better cause than
> before. There would have been no fewer deaths in Iraq if we had not gone
> there with no hope of recourse or help. Why doesn't your compassion go
>to
> those who died before at the hand of Saddam? Why express it all for
>those
> who died just since we went there to help give them some hope? Are you
>just
> so totally mad at Bush that you cannot see a bigger picture? Do you not
> understand that we could still be waiting for a very corrupt UN to go
>offer
> some help? Or do you just not care because Bush is a republican...if it
>had
> be a democrat who 'did it the right way, at the right time' you would
>have
> gotten on board with more faith?
> It is a complicated, complex world and I am trying to understand.
> PK
>
>
>
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>
> _____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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