[Vision2020] Reading

[Art Deco aka W. Fox]

Pat, et al,

No one on this list has ever justified those actions of Saddam Hussein which 
resulted in torture, death, corruption, etc.  He was, in this regard, a most 
despicable monster.  He did, however like Tito in Yugoslavia, keep the country 
together and helped to foster a great number of beneficial economic and other 
changes.

As a measure of Saddam's overall performance,  perhaps someone on this list 
could research the number of deaths in Iraq due to violence and war related 
activities since our invasion and compare them to the number in a period of 
equal length just preceding our invasion.  Also someone might research the 
growth/destruction of infrastructure before and after the war.  All such 
estimates will be iffy but might give some estimate of the effect of the 
invasion on the quality of life and the amount of human suffering in Iraq today.

Most readers have probably seen the news reports of another effect of the war: 
a great amount of disease and deaths resulting from the lack of a sanitary water 
supply and sanitary sewage disposal which lack has resulted from the 
indiscriminate destruction of critical infrastructure.

We (America) are stuck in a moral abyss:  We cannot morally leave things as they 
are now.  In my opinion we should make things as good as they were before the 
invasion and also attempt to compensate the innocent victims of the effects of 
our invasion.  By staying, however, we are creating more problems and suffering 
whose effects are likely to last beyond the lifetimes of most of us.  We may be 
facing problems that are impossible to solve at least in terms that are 
acceptable to us now.

Pat does not like the radical Islamic terrorists.  I would guess that all V 
2020ers do not either.  I do not like terrorists of any religion who use various 
elements of their religious/superstitious belief to forward their religious and 
non-religious (power, control, enrichment, ego-satisfaction) ends.

A look at history shows the use of religious belief to justify war, death, 
suffering, etc. is not new.  Although some religious beliefs and movements have 
benefited humankind greatly, religious belief in general has been and is a 
leading and most exacerbating factor in most wars, atrocious infliction of human 
suffering, the non-natural caused sufferings of humankind, etc.

A look at history and/or the daily news shows that each religious side claims 
and apparently believes that their alleged deities are allegedly greatly in 
favor of their atrocious actions however contrary to the main tenets of their 
religious beliefs these actions are.  Unfortunately, there is no way for any 
side, so far, to convincingly demonstrate the truth of their claims save cling 
tenaciously and often cruelly to their delusional fantasies.

Wayne


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Pat Kraut
  To: vision2020
  Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Reading


  OK, call me stupid but I fail to see what George the 1st has to do with
  getting rid of Saddam now. Except that it would have been nice if he had
  crossed the UN and taken him out back then. We are one step from elections
  in Iraq...will it go well...maybe not...BUT it is a chance for Iraq to pull
  itself out of the mire. The insurgents don't want to see the elections
  succeed and will do all they can to kill and maim all invovled but, just as
  in any beginning there will be those who will stand up for liberty. Can you
  not see the good that can come from this? Do you live so far to the dark
  side that you see no light at all? Once again I ask you if it had been a
  democrat with 'the right war at the right time with France and Germany
  involved' would you have been happier? Maybe seen the good to come of
  sending troops to help?? All those people died or were maimed at the hand of
  Saddam with no hope and you cannot seem to understand that at all...why do
  you not have any compassion for them in any way? Can you not see the hope
  that is there now?? I don't care that George the 1st blew it following the
  UN, I don't care that Clinton the coward should have gotten Saddam, I care
  about today, NOW. If you understand how the 1st should have taken him out
  why are you so failing to see the 2nds leap to really help?
  I am trying to understand

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
  To: "'Pat Kraut'" <pkraut at moscow.com>; "'vision2020'"
  <vision2020 at moscow.com>
  Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 6:04 AM
  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Reading


  How soon Ms. Kraut forgets George the First.

  Remember the Iraq War, Part 1?  Remember when George the First promised the
  American citizenry that the war was going to be fought by generals and not
  politicians?  That ended up being a lie.

  Remember when George the First promised the Kurds that he would support them
  in their fight for liberation?  Remember when General Schwartzkopf said that
  he was within 24 hours of entering (and liberating) Baghdad?  George the
  First failed in his promise to the Kurds and told Schwartzkopf to cool his
  heals as he (George the First) arranged for a peace agreement with Saddam.

  You are absolutely right, Ms. Kraut.  Thousands and thousands died before
  George II "liberated" Iraq.  But alot of that blood is on George the First's
  hands.

  And now there is American blood involved in this Iraqi civil war in which
  George II has volunteered 1,500 more troops.

  Well . . . As Country Joe McDonald (of Country Joe and the Fish) once said:

  "Well, it's one two three
  What are we fighting for?"

  Until we learn . . .

  Take care of yourselves and each other.

  Tom "49er" Hansen

  We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some are
  dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors....but they all
  exist very nicely in the same box.



  -----Original Message-----
  From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
  On Behalf Of Pat Kraut
  Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:45 PM
  To: vision2020
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Reading

  When I have questioned the Palestinians on this site I have had many emails
  that tried to explain their actions to me as if there could be some
  justification for the behavior. I know about the problem. It is much more
  complex than any one story can ever convey. But, I also know that peace as
  described by Palistians is not the same as peace described by Israeli terms
  or mine. It will take much more than two states to get past the hatred
  perpetrated by Palistian mothers among others. Although two states would be
  a start I'd be willing to try I wonder if it won't be another
  Ireland...always at war.
  I am always in amazement of how easily some dismiss the many thousands who
  died in Iraq before we got there with no hope of any good to come of it.
  Those who were gassed, maimed, raped and living in total fear at the hands
  of Saddam's sons with no recourse for help. Yes, many people have died. It
  is usually the case in a war but I believe it is for a better cause than
  before. There would have been no fewer deaths in Iraq if we had not gone
  there with no hope of recourse or help. Why doesn't your compassion go to
  those who died before at the hand of Saddam? Why express it all for those
  who died just since we went there to help give them some hope? Are you just
  so totally mad at Bush that you cannot see a bigger picture? Do you not
  understand that we could still be waiting for a very corrupt UN to go offer
  some help? Or do you just not care because Bush is a republican...if it had
  be a democrat who 'did it the right way, at the right time' you would have
  gotten on board with more faith?
  It is a complicated, complex world and I am trying to understand.
  PK



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