[Vision2020] Ribbons, medals, and lying to ABC
Paul Duffau
pduffau@adelphia.net
Wed, 28 Apr 2004 14:13:18 -0700
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I meant to send this to the list as well as Mr. Hansen this morning but got into a hurry.
PD
What part of "John Kerry's testimony before Congress" is hard to understand. I used a direct quote from that testimony by, ta-da, John Kerry. Need a link? Google it. Took me less than a minute. Or check the Congressional Record.
I have yet to dispute his record in Vietnam and will not do so. I consider those to be facts as well.
As far as the VVAW, I posted 3 separate links in my last message, from 3 different sources. You obviously decided that reading them was not worth your time before trying to insult me. Thank you, however, for the reply to my hypothetical question. I suspect (nasty old me!) that Kerry heard rumblings ( not hard facts that he would be obligated to report) and elected to leave the VVAW before this became an issue. That would be consistent with his honorable service and his stands against the violence of the war. (Shoot, I just hate it when I suspect the best of people. A real partisan would have insisted he was there plotting. And called him something like King John.)
I don't care what Bush and Cheney do in regards to this issue. That is not the point. The point was to try to get relevant information on a major party candidate. I referenced you because I lacked the background to determine proper procedure upon separation from the Armed Forces.
Thank you for your service. It is very much appreciated. That also is a fact.
Respectfully,
Paul Duffau
ps. Off to work now and I hope that everybody has a marvelous day!
At 05:59 AM 4/28/04 -0700, you wrote:
>You are certainly taking alot of liberty in reporting things as "fact".
>
>Here is what I know to be fact by evidence linked here to this forum.
>
>Kerry Enlisted into the United States Navy in February of 1966.
>
>He attended Officer Candidate School from August 1966 thru December 1966 and was commissioned as an Ensign.
>
>He served two tours in Vietnam and was awaarded three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star (with "V" device), and a Silver Star (with "V" device).
>
>He was released from Active Duty in 1970 and placed in the active reserve until July of 1972.
>
>He was honorably discharge in 1978.
>
>I am even willing to go as far as to say that you are right (that Kerry spent his first honeymoon in Paris). Now, as you suggest, if he commuicated with NOrth Vietnamese officials while in Paris, please show us the evidence (a link, an old newspaper article, anything).
>
>And please show us evidence (of ANY kind) that reflects somebody (at a VVAW meeting) suggesting assassinating public officials. Even if you are correct, you further state that this idea was fully rejected (probably because it was against the law). Yes, if Kerry were present at that meeting and heard somebody honestly propose assassinate public officials, he has a moral obligation to report it to the authorities (much like the knowledge of an illegal casino being operated/funded by a church here in Moscow).
>
>One simple question: If (as you suggest) all this is fact, why isn't King George, Cheney, Ashcroft, and the remainder of the Republican riff-raff presenting it to the American public?
>
>And yes I am reasonably "conversant of the issues of the day". I simply am not up-to-date on unsubstantiated inuendo. That appears to be your area of expertise.
>
>But, I digress. Please continue. Inquiring minds want to know.
>
>Take care,
>
>Tom Hansen
>SFC, US Army (Retired)
>>Phu Bai, RVN, October 1969 thru May 1970 (not rumor, just fact)
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Paul Duffau [mailto:pduffau@adelphia.net]
>>Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 9:13 PM
>>To: thansen@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com
>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Ribbons, medals, and lying to ABC
>>
>>Mr. Hansen,
>>
>>In John Kerry's testimony before Congress in 1971, he stated, "I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government..." As I said, it is his words. At this time, John Kerry was a member of the Naval Reserves (Active). Fact.
>>
>>Twice now I have indicated that there is some evidence, both documentary and eyewitness based, that placed him at a meeting of the VVAW (I should have specified this in the first two posts, but assumed [my mistake!] that you were reasonably conversant of the issues of the day). The plan of Scott Camil to assassinate senators in favor of the war was overwhelmingly rejected by the VVAW leadership. Was Kerry there? Did he know of the plan? Does a Naval officer on Active Reserve status have an obligation to report such a threat or not if he is aware of it?
>>
>>Links to Kansas City meeting:
>>http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/04/01/kerry_cant_recall_being_at_71_parley/
>>http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040327/NEWS/403270369/1134
>>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/24/politics/campaign/24VET.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5007&en=3fb3db1485d5aace&ex=1398225600&partner=USERLAND
>>
>>Now, I have established as a fact (assuming that he told the truth) that Kerry met with the North Vietnamese. Am I still ignorant? Or is ignorance a charge to be brought when facts are inconveniently arranged?
>>
>>Again, respectfully,
>>
>>Paul Duffau
>>
>>At 08:45 PM 4/27/04 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Again (and for the final time), do you have ANY evidence of John Kerry meeting with North Vietnamese officials, other than his statement that he went to Paris on his honeymoon?
>>>
>>>This is getting ignorant now. This is a waste of my time.
>>>
>>>Forget the question. If you want to believe that John Kerry plotted with the North Vietnamese to assassinate public officials, go right ahead.
>>>
>>>Later,
>>>
>>>Tom Hansen
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Paul Duffau [mailto:pduffau@adelphia.net]
>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 8:28 PM
>>>To: thansen@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com
>>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Ribbons, medals, and lying to ABC
>>>
>>>Mr. Hansen,
>>>
>>>First, I must apologize. I thought I had been careful to state that he had apparently attended a meeting in which the assassination of public officials was discussed. In no way did I mean to imply that John Kerry actively plotted or participated in any such scheme.
>>>
>>>Now, to your questions. I went to John Kerry's website and located his record of service. It indicates that John Kerry was transferred to the Naval Reserves on Jan. 3, 1970. On July 1, 1972 he was transferred to Standby Reserves - Inactive. On Feb 16, 1978, he was released from the Naval Reserves. So far, we seem to be in agreement, though I wasn't trying to be disagreeable but to get the facts correct. http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Service_Record.pdf
>>>Based on these dates, John Kerry definitely was protesting the war while still a member of the military reserve and also met a representative of North Vietnam while travelling in France during his honeymoon (since he has indicated that he was there, I accept that as a fact.) This actually lends some credence that he would be willing to meet with foreign officials that want him to win the current election since it would simply repeat past behavior.
>>>
>>> As I indicated before, the record on the meeting in Kansas City is iffy, based on contemporaneous records from the FBI and a several personal accounts. Whether Kerry was aware of Scott Camil's proposition is an open question. That Camil was working for the Kerry campaign in Florida is indisputable since the campaign has since accepted his resignation. The campaign also tried to get a Mr. John Musgrove to change his story about Kerry's attendance. These events also occurred prior to the end of his active reserve status. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/24/politics/campaign/24VET.html?ex=1398225600&en=3fb3db1485d5aace&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND
>>>My reference to the Inactive Reserve status was merely to get an accurate timeline and to try to understand the 2 year gap in paperwork. I believe that the events of 1970-1972 are the ones in dispute.
>>>
>>>Respectfully,
>>>
>>>Paul Duffau
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>At 07:33 PM 4/27/04 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>Two things, Mr. Duffau.
>>>>Judging by the first endorsement to LTJG John Kerry's Release from Active Duty, dated 2 January 1970, he was ordered to inactive reserve. (<http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Release_From_Active_Duty.pdf>http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Release_From_Active_Duty.pdf). A thorough search of records on display at his website and numerous searches via <http://www.google.com>www.google.com resulted in disclosure of one document subsequent to his release from active duty on 2 January 1970.
>>>><http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/jkerry/trnsfr2stndyrsrv.pdf>http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/jkerry/trnsfr2stndyrsrv.pdf
>>>>A Contingent Transfer to the Standby (Inactive) Reserves effective 1 July 1972, dated 1 March 1972.
>>>>This tells me that he was on active reserve status until he fulfilled his six-year obligation on 1 July 1972 and was then transferred into the inactive reserve,
>>>>Could you please share with us ANY evidence that you may have come across reflecting Kerry's military service subsequent to 1 July 1972, especially any evidence linking him to assassinations of public officials?
>>>>I anxiously await your response.
>>>>Tom Hansen
>>>>Not On The Palouse, Not Ever
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Paul Duffau
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 6:44 PM
>>>>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Ribbons, medals, and lying to ABC
>>>>
>>>>Joan,
>>>>
>>>>You are correct that it is a fact that Kerry was decorated for his heroism. You are also correct that on his return he protested that same war. It is also a fact that he did so a a member of the Reserves. He also met with North Vietnamese in Paris while in the Reserves. And apparently was at a meeting in which assassinations of public officials was discussed, while still in the Reserves. (This last is in question - his separation papers direct him to contact the Naval Reserves immediately upon discharge. A separate document shows service from '72-'78 for the Reserves. A question for Tom, since he will be far more familiar than I am with discharge procedures: When discharged, do you serve for a period of time in the active Reserves before reassignment to Inactive status?)
>>>>
>>>>In my mind, his behavior after his return is an issue. His behavior in the service was honorable and praiseworthy. Much of the criticism that I've seen recently deals with the period after his release from the Navy.
>>>>
>>>>Paul Duffau
>>>>
>>>>At 03:47 PM 4/27/04 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>>The facts of the case are simple: Kerry was decorated for heroism in Vietnam. Kerry, on his return, protested the Vietnam War. That's it. Sum total.
>>>>>
>>>>>----------
>>>>>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
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I meant to send this to the list as well as Mr. Hansen this morning but
got into a hurry.<br>
<br>
PD<br>
<br>
What part of "John Kerry's testimony before Congress" is hard
to understand. I used a direct quote from that testimony by, ta-da,
John Kerry. Need a link? Google it. Took me less than a
minute. Or check the Congressional Record.<br>
<br>
I have yet to dispute his record in Vietnam and will not do so. I
consider those to be facts as well.<br>
<br>
As far as the VVAW, I posted 3 separate links in my last message, from 3
different sources. You obviously decided that reading them was not
worth your time before trying to insult me. Thank you, however, for
the reply to my hypothetical question. I suspect (nasty old me!)
that Kerry heard rumblings ( not hard facts that he would be obligated to
report) and elected to leave the VVAW before this became an issue.
That would be consistent with his honorable service and his stands
against the violence of the war. (Shoot, I just hate it when I suspect
the best of people. A real partisan would have insisted he was
there plotting. And called him something like King John.)<br>
<br>
I don't care what Bush and Cheney do in regards to this issue. That
is not the point. The point was to try to get relevant information
on a major party candidate. I referenced you because I lacked the
background to determine proper procedure upon separation from the Armed
Forces. <br>
<br>
Thank you for your service. It is very much appreciated. That
also is a fact.<br>
<br>
Respectfully,<br>
<br>
Paul Duffau<br>
<br>
ps. Off to work now and I hope that everybody has a marvelous day!
<br>
<br>
At 05:59 AM 4/28/04 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF"><blockquote type=cite cite>You are certainly
taking alot of liberty in reporting things as
"fact".</font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">Here is what I know to be fact by evidence
linked here to this forum.</font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">Kerry Enlisted into the United States Navy
in February of 1966.</font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">He attended Officer Candidate School from
August 1966 thru December 1966 and was commissioned as an
Ensign.</font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">He served two tours in Vietnam and was
awaarded three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star (with "V" device),
and a Silver Star (with "V" device).</font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">He was released from Active Duty in 1970 and
placed in the active reserve until July of 1972.</font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">He was honorably discharge in
1978.</font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">I am even willing to go as far as to say
that you are right (that Kerry spent his first honeymoon in Paris). Now,
as you suggest, if he commuicated with NOrth Vietnamese officials while
in Paris, please show us the evidence (a link, an old newspaper article,
anything).</font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">And please show us evidence (of ANY kind)
that reflects somebody (at a VVAW meeting) suggesting assassinating
public officials. Even if you are correct, you further state that
this idea was fully rejected (probably because it was against the
law). Yes, if Kerry were present at that meeting and heard somebody
honestly propose assassinate public officials, he has a moral obligation
to report it to the authorities (much like the knowledge of an illegal
casino being operated/funded by a church here in Moscow).</font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">One simple question: If (as you
suggest) all this is fact, why isn't King George, Cheney, Ashcroft, and
the remainder of the Republican riff-raff presenting it to the American
public?</font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">And yes I am reasonably "conversant of
the issues of the day". I simply am not up-to-date on
unsubstantiated inuendo. That appears to be your area of
expertise.</font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">But, I digress. Please continue.
Inquiring minds want to know.</font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">Take care,</font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">Tom Hansen</font><br>
SFC, US Army (Retired)<br>
<blockquote>Phu Bai, RVN, October 1969 thru May 1970 (not rumor, just
fact)<font face="tahoma" size=2>
<dl>
<dd>-----Original Message-----
<dd>From: Paul Duffau
[<a href="mailto:pduffau@adelphia.net" eudora="autourl">mailto:pduffau@adelphia.net</a>]
<dd>Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 9:13 PM
<dd>To: thansen@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com
<dd>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Ribbons, medals, and lying to ABC<br>
<br>
</font>
<dd>Mr. Hansen,<br>
<br>
<dd>In John Kerry's testimony before Congress in 1971, he stated, "I
have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace
talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the
Provisional Revolutionary Government..." As I said, it is his
words. At this time, John Kerry was a member of the Naval Reserves
(Active). Fact.<br>
<br>
<dd>Twice now I have indicated that there is some evidence, both
documentary and eyewitness based, that placed him at a meeting of the
VVAW (I should have specified this in the first two posts, but assumed
[my mistake!] that you were reasonably conversant of the issues of the
day). The plan of Scott Camil to assassinate senators in favor of
the war was overwhelmingly rejected by the VVAW leadership. Was
Kerry there? Did he know of the plan? Does a Naval officer on
Active Reserve status have an obligation to report such a threat or not
if he is aware of it?<br>
<br>
<dd>Links to Kansas City meeting:
<dd><a href="http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/04/01/kerry_cant_recall_being_at_71_parley/" eudora="autourl">http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/04/01/kerry_cant_recall_being_at_71_parley/</a>
<dd><a href="http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040327/NEWS/403270369/1134" eudora="autourl">http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040327/NEWS/403270369/1134</a>
<dd><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/24/politics/campaign/24VET.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5007&en=3fb3db1485d5aace&ex=1398225600&partner=USERLAND" eudora="autourl">http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/24/politics/campaign/24VET.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5007&en=3fb3db1485d5aace&ex=1398225600&partner=USERLAND</a><br>
<br>
<dd>Now, I have established as a fact (assuming that he told the truth)
that Kerry met with the North Vietnamese. Am I still
ignorant? Or is ignorance a charge to be brought when facts are
inconveniently arranged?<br>
<br>
<dd>Again, respectfully,<br>
<br>
<dd>Paul Duffau <br>
<br>
<dd>At 08:45 PM 4/27/04 -0700, you
wrote:<font size=2 color="#0000FF"><blockquote type=cite cite>
<dd>Again (and for the final time), do you have ANY evidence of John
Kerry meeting with North Vietnamese officials, other than his statement
that he went to Paris on his honeymoon?</font>
<dd> <font size=2 color="#0000FF">
<dd>This is getting ignorant now. This is a waste of my
time.</font>
<dd> <font size=2 color="#0000FF">
<dd>Forget the question. If you want to believe that John Kerry
plotted with the North Vietnamese to assassinate public officials, go
right ahead.</font>
<dd> <font size=2 color="#0000FF">
<dd>Later,</font>
<dd> <font size=2 color="#0000FF">
<dd>Tom Hansen</font> <font face="tahoma" size=2>
<dd>-----Original Message-----
<dd>From: Paul Duffau
[<a href="mailto:pduffau@adelphia.net" eudora="autourl">mailto:pduffau@adelphia.net</a>]
<dd>Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 8:28 PM
<dd>To: thansen@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com
<dd>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Ribbons, medals, and lying to ABC<br>
<br>
</font>
<dd>Mr. Hansen,<br>
<br>
<dd>First, I must apologize. I thought I had been careful to state
that he had apparently attended a meeting in which the assassination of
public officials was discussed. In no way did I mean to imply that
John Kerry actively plotted or participated in any such scheme.<br>
<br>
<dd>Now, to your questions. I went to John Kerry's website and
located his record of service. It indicates that John Kerry was
transferred to the Naval Reserves on Jan. 3, 1970. On July 1, 1972
he was transferred to Standby Reserves - Inactive. On Feb 16, 1978,
he was released from the Naval Reserves. So far, we seem to be in
agreement, though I wasn't trying to be disagreeable but to get the facts
correct.
<a href="http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Service_Record.pdf" eudora="autourl">http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Service_Record.pdf</a>
<dd>Based on these dates, John Kerry definitely was protesting the war
while still a member of the military reserve and also met a
representative of North Vietnam while travelling in France during his
honeymoon (since he has indicated that he was there, I accept that as a
fact.) This actually lends some credence that he would be willing
to meet with foreign officials that want him to win the current election
since it would simply repeat past behavior.<br>
<br>
<dd> As I indicated before, the record on the meeting in Kansas City
is iffy, based on contemporaneous records from the FBI and a several
personal accounts. Whether Kerry was aware of Scott Camil's
proposition is an open question. That Camil was working for the
Kerry campaign in Florida is indisputable since the campaign has since
accepted his resignation. The campaign also tried to get a Mr. John
Musgrove to change his story about Kerry's attendance. These events
also occurred prior to the end of his active reserve status.
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/24/politics/campaign/24VET.html?ex=1398225600&en=3fb3db1485d5aace&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND" eudora="autourl">http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/24/politics/campaign/24VET.html?ex=1398225600&en=3fb3db1485d5aace&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND</a>
<dd>My reference to the Inactive Reserve status was merely to get an
accurate timeline and to try to understand the 2 year gap in
paperwork. I believe that the events of 1970-1972 are the ones in
dispute.<br>
<br>
<dd>Respectfully,<br>
<br>
<dd>Paul Duffau<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<dd>At 07:33 PM 4/27/04 -0700, you wrote:<font size=2 color="#0000FF">
<blockquote type=cite cite>
<dd>Two things, Mr. Duffau.</font> <font size=2 color="#0000FF">
<dd>Judging by the first endorsement to LTJG John Kerry's Release from Active Duty, dated 2 January 1970, he was ordered to inactive reserve. (<a href="http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Release_From_Active_Duty.pdf">http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Release_From_Active_Duty.pdf</a>). A thorough search of records on display at his website and numerous searches via <a href="http://www.google.com">www.google.com</a> resulted in disclosure of one document subsequent to his release from active duty on 2 January 1970.</font> <font size=2 color="#0000FF">
<dd><a href="http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/jkerry/trnsfr2stndyrsrv.pdf">http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/jkerry/trnsfr2stndyrsrv.pdf</a></font>
<dd>A Contingent Transfer to the Standby (Inactive) Reserves effective 1 July 1972, dated 1 March 1972. <font size=2 color="#0000FF">
<dd>This tells me that he was on active reserve status until he fulfilled his six-year obligation on 1 July 1972 and was then transferred into the inactive reserve,</font> <font size=2 color="#0000FF">
<dd>Could you please share with us ANY evidence that you may have come across reflecting Kerry's military service subsequent to 1 July 1972, especially any evidence linking him to assassinations of public officials?</font> <font size=2 color="#0000FF">
<dd>I anxiously await your response.</font> <font size=2 color="#0000FF">
<dd>Tom Hansen</font>
<dd>Not On The Palouse, Not Ever <font face="tahoma" size=2>
<dd>-----Original Message-----
<dd>From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [<a href="mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com%5DOn" eudora="autourl">mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On</a> Behalf Of Paul Duffau
<dd>Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 6:44 PM
<dd>To: vision2020@moscow.com
<dd>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Ribbons, medals, and lying to ABC<br>
<br>
</font>
<dd>Joan,<br>
<br>
<dd>You are correct that it is a fact that Kerry was decorated for his heroism. You are also correct that on his return he protested that same war. It is also a fact that he did so a a member of the Reserves. He also met with North Vietnamese in Paris while in the Reserves. And apparently was at a meeting in which assassinations of public officials was discussed, while still in the Reserves. (This last is in question - his separation papers direct him to contact the Naval Reserves immediately upon discharge. A separate document shows service from '72-'78 for the Reserves. A question for Tom, since he will be far more familiar than I am with discharge procedures: When discharged, do you serve for a period of time in the active Reserves before reassignment to Inactive status?)<br>
<br>
<dd>In my mind, his behavior after his return is an issue. His behavior in the service was honorable and praiseworthy. Much of the criticism that I've seen recently deals with the period after his release from the Navy. <br>
<br>
<dd>Paul Duffau<br>
<br>
<dd>At 03:47 PM 4/27/04 -0700, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite cite>
<dd>The facts of the case are simple: Kerry was decorated for heroism in Vietnam. Kerry, on his return, protested the Vietnam War. That's it. Sum total.
<dd> <hr>
<dd>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href="'http://explorer.msn.com'">http://explorer.msn.com</a></blockquote></blockquote>
</dl></blockquote></blockquote></html>
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