[Vision2020] Student accomplishments
Art Deco aka W. Fox
deco@moscow.com
Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:57:43 -0700
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_00DD_01C42700.FB150AC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Janesta, et al,
Janesta writes, 'Mr. Fox, it is part of the game of winning in a trail. Those
"accidentally on purpose" slips of the tongue.'
There is no doubt, Janesta, that your statement is true.
My point is that such behavior is dishonest and unethical. The court rules have
evolved with the purpose of providing all parties a fair trial. To break the
rules is to erode the fairness of a trial.
Because of the differences in judges, attorneys, preparation, etc., the rules
are not perfectly enforced or enforced uniformly. Of course, someone aggrieved
by flagrant rule abuse and who loses in court can always appeal, but that is
very expensive, most always a gamble, and is a time consuming process where more
unethical conduct can occur.
Perhaps most people consider winning at any cost in court to be more important
than a fair trial. Perhaps I am an ethical dinosaur. However, I believe a fair
trial is the ideal to which all courts should always aspire. All involved need
to work harder to achieve this goal starting with the earliest stages of
training attorneys including the Mock Trial competitions.
I would be willing to wager that anyone who has lost a case in part because of
"sharp" practice of an under-ethical attorney would agree with the general
position I am advocating.
In one litigation where I was the prevailing party, the appellant's attorney
told outrageous lies and misbehaved in other ways during his rebuttal argument
to the Idaho Supreme Court. Even though I prevailed, I did not appreciate the
unethical conduct of the opposing counsel; I greatly lowered my opinion of him
as an attorney and as a person. I do not think the court appreciated his
behavior either based upon their body language and remarks.
The fact that unethical behavior occurs often is not a disputable fact. My
perhaps poorly expressed point is that such behavior should not happen at all if
justice and fairness are the ultimate goals of the courts of law.
The central ethical issue at dispute is: Is behavior, such as repeatedly,
knowingly, and intentionally breaking court rules such that it erodes the
fairness of a trial, unethical, therefore dishonest behavior?
What do you think? Why?
Respectfully,
Wayne
Art Deco (Wayne Fox)
deco@moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: JSullivan
To: Art Deco aka W. Fox ; Vision 2020
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Student accomplishments
I can't help but wonder what "tactics" the Sami, the U of I student's
attorney, as well as the prosecuting attorney will use in Boise in the coming
weeks?
How many of you have ever sat in on a high profile case before? It is a
learning experience on many levels. How many of us go to local trails of note? I
like to stay as far away from those kinds of things as possible!
Back longer ago than I care to date myself, my mom was the Secretary to the
Administrator of the U.S. Attorney's Office in Los Angeles. She thought it would
be good for my brother and I go "experience" the Charles Manson trial. We went
many times. Yes, a learning experience indeed.
Mr. Fox, it is part of the game of winning in a trail. Those "accidentally on
purpose" slips of the tongue.
Janesta
----- Original Message -----
From: Art Deco aka W. Fox
To: Vision 2020
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Student accomplishments
Jeremy, Troy, et al,
How soon we forget.
I didn't see anything in the news article about the UI team cheating to win.
The Logos team repeatedly and knowingly violated the Rules of Evidence which are
in place to insure a fair trial. Such violations are cheating -- dishonesty.
If you would like details again, I'll repost them.
As for Drew Simon, reread his posts. Do you not find the authorship
somewhat familiar? Did you not finally find in his last post, an admission that
rules were intentionally broken? Isn't that dishonesty? Do you not find it
curious that he has not responded to questions asked of him after his last post.
Isn't it curious that he has not responded to questions first posed by Rose
Huskey, then Saundra Lund? Isn't entering such a debate with us slow-witted old
codgers good exercise for a student aspiring to be an attorney?
If Moscow High had won the Mock Trial using the same tactics as Logos, my
criticism would have been the same, if not more shrill -- I would have been
supporting such tactics with my tax dollar. If you have spent any time
observing the court system, you would see the gross amount of cheating and
dishonesty that occurs there. I would hope that all participants in the Mock
Trail contest, including those that allege that they are Christians, would
eschew such unethical tactics.
Jeremy, isn't the closing of your post a bit indiscriminate though possibly
unintentionally revealing?
Wayne
Art Deco (Wayne Fox)
deco@moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeremy Downey
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 12:05 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Student accomplishments
Does anyone else find it ironic that the same folks who are all hot and
bothered at Bill Strand for making a (complimentary) joke about the
accomplishments of some UI chemical engineering students were not so long ago
frothing at the mouth in their eagerness to denounce the accomplishments of some
Logos high school students in the state mock trial competition, even going so
far as to ridicule and demean a student from the opposing team when he came to
their defense? Doesn't this seem to indicate a certain lack of perspective?
Hot, sexy regards,
Jeremy Downey
Ad ignem tractus, ab igne consumptus, ex igne renatus.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and
safe. _____________________________________________________ List services made
available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since
1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
------=_NextPart_000_00DD_01C42700.FB150AC0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Janesta, et al,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Janesta writes, 'Mr. Fox, it is part of the game of =
winning in=20
a trail. Those "accidentally on purpose" slips of the =
tongue.'</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>There is no doubt, Janesta, that your statement =
is=20
true. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>My point is that such behavior is dishonest and=20
unethical. <STRONG> The court rules have evolved with the =
purpose of=20
providing all parties a fair trial. To break the rules is to erode =
the=20
fairness of a trial. </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Because of the differences in judges, =
attorneys,=20
preparation, etc., the rules are not perfectly enforced or enforced=20
uniformly. Of course, someone aggrieved by flagrant rule =
abuse and=20
who loses in court can always appeal, but that is very expensive, most =
always a=20
gamble, and is a time consuming process where more unethical =
conduct can=20
occur.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Perhaps most people consider winning at any =
cost in court=20
to be more important than a fair trial. Perhaps I am an ethical=20
dinosaur. <STRONG>However, I believe a fair trial is the ideal to =
which=20
all courts should always aspire.</STRONG> All involved need to =
work harder=20
to achieve this goal starting with the earliest stages of training =
attorneys=20
including the Mock Trial competitions. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>I would be willing to wager that anyone who has lost =
a case in=20
part because of "sharp" practice of an under-ethical attorney would =
agree with=20
the general position I am advocating. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>In one litigation where I was the prevailing party, =
the=20
appellant's attorney told outrageous lies and misbehaved in other ways =
during=20
his rebuttal argument to the Idaho Supreme Court. Even though I =
prevailed,=20
I did not appreciate the unethical conduct of the opposing counsel; I =
greatly=20
lowered my opinion of him as an attorney and as a person. I do not =
think=20
the court appreciated his behavior either based upon their =
body=20
language and remarks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>The fact that unethical behavior occurs often =
is not=20
a disputable fact. My perhaps poorly expressed point is that such =
behavior=20
should not happen at all if justice and fairness are the ultimate goals =
of the=20
courts of law.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>The central ethical issue at dispute is: <STRONG>Is behavior, =
such as=20
repeatedly, knowingly, and intentionally breaking court rules such =
that=20
it erodes the fairness of a trial, unethical, therefore dishonest=20
behavior? </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV>What do you think? Why?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></FONT><FONT size=3D4>Respectfully,</FONT></DIV><FONT size=3D4>
<DIV><BR>Wayne</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Art Deco (Wayne Fox)<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Djsullivan@moscow.com =
href=3D"mailto:jsullivan@moscow.com">JSullivan</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddeco@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco aka W. Fox</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com =
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision=20
2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 20, 2004 =
2:59=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] =
Student=20
accomplishments</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I can't help but wonder what =
"tactics" the=20
Sami, the U of I student's attorney, as well as the prosecuting=20
attorney will use in Boise in the coming weeks? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>How many of you have ever sat in on a =
high=20
profile case before? It is a learning experience on many levels. =
How many=20
of us go to local trails of note? I like to stay as far away from =
those kinds=20
of things as possible!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Back longer ago than I care to date =
myself, my=20
mom was the Secretary to the Administrator of the U.S. Attorney's =
Office in=20
Los Angeles. She thought it would be good for my brother and I go =
"experience"=20
the Charles Manson trial. We went many times. Yes, a learning =
experience=20
indeed. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mr. Fox, it is part of the game of =
winning in a=20
trail. Those "accidentally on purpose" slips of the =
tongue.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Janesta</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Ddeco@moscow.com href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco =
aka W.=20
Fox</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 20, 2004 =
2:17=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] =
Student=20
accomplishments</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Jeremy, Troy, et al,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>How soon we forget.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>I didn't see anything in the news article about =
the UI=20
team cheating to win. The Logos team repeatedly and knowingly =
violated=20
the Rules of Evidence which are in place to insure a fair =
trial. Such=20
violations are cheating -- dishonesty.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>If you would like details again, I'll repost=20
them.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>As for Drew Simon, reread his posts. Do =
you not find=20
the authorship somewhat familiar? Did you not finally find in =
his last=20
post, an admission that rules were intentionally broken? Isn't =
that=20
dishonesty? Do you not find it curious that he has not =
responded to=20
questions asked of him after his last post. Isn't it curious =
that he=20
has not responded to questions first posed by Rose Huskey, then =
Saundra=20
Lund? Isn't entering such a debate with us slow-witted old =
codgers=20
good exercise for a student aspiring to be an attorney?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>If Moscow High had won the Mock Trial using the =
same=20
tactics as Logos, my criticism would have been the same, if not more =
shrill=20
-- I would have been supporting such tactics with my tax =
dollar. If=20
you have spent any time observing the court system, you would see =
the gross=20
amount of cheating and dishonesty that occurs there. I would =
hope that=20
all participants in the Mock Trail contest, including those that =
allege that=20
they are Christians, would eschew such unethical =
tactics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Jeremy, isn't the closing of your post a =
bit=20
indiscriminate though possibly unintentionally =
revealing?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV><FONT size=3D4>
<DIV><BR>Wayne</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Art Deco (Wayne Fox)<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Ddunadhaigh@hotmail.com=20
href=3D"mailto:dunadhaigh@hotmail.com">Jeremy Downey</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 20, =
2004 12:05=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] =
Student=20
accomplishments</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Does anyone else find it ironic that the same folks who are all =
hot and=20
bothered at Bill Strand for making a (complimentary) joke about =
the=20
accomplishments of some UI chemical engineering students were =
not so=20
long ago frothing at the mouth in their eagerness to denounce the=20
accomplishments of some Logos high school students in the state =
mock trial=20
competition, even going so far as to ridicule and demean a student =
from=20
the opposing team when he came to their defense? Doesn't =
this seem=20
to indicate a certain lack of perspective?</P>
<P><BR><BR>Hot, sexy regards,</P>
<P>Jeremy Downey</P>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ad ignem tractus, ab igne consumptus, ex igne =
renatus.</DIV></DIV><BR=20
clear=3Dall>
<HR>
<A href=3D"http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUS/2749??PS=3D">Check out MSN PC =
Safety=20
& Security to help ensure your PC is protected and safe.</A>=20
_____________________________________________________ List =
services made=20
available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the =
Palouse=20
since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20
=
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF=20
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_00DD_01C42700.FB150AC0--