[Vision2020] Fw: Iraq
Carl Westberg
carlwestberg846@hotmail.com
Tue, 06 Apr 2004 10:40:38 -0700
I can't quite put my finger on why I feel this way, but I think Pat and I
disagree about Iraq and George W. (Elite Force Aviator) Bush. I don't
know...just a gut feeling.
Carl
Westberg Jr.
>From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut@moscow.com>
>To: "vision2020" <vision2020@moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: Iraq
>Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:04:16 -0700
>
>Even tho there are areas where killing and warfare is still happening and
>will no matter what we or anyone else does. There are areas where great
>things are happening. We won't hear it in our media but the returning
>forces and in some other quiet places the good news is there. Just as in
>the story about Rowanda there are those picking up the opportunity to pull
>away from tribal warfare and begin to form a new country. It will take
>dilignece on our part and a leadership that won't step down. We do not need
>leadership that is whining to the UN and other countries that 'we need
>help' when all they will do is muck up the process with their own demands.
>As to the war being about oil and revenge for daddy. This shows such a
>complete ignorance about oil in the world and who Bush is that it isn't
>even worthy of a site where people claim to be learned.
>PK
>
> Fellow Humans,
>
> I'm afraid that I'm always stuck with asking the irritating questions,
>but here goes:
>
> Would as many people have been killed, maimed, tortured, burned, or
>suffered and continue to suffer the loss of relatives, friends, jobs, the
>simple pleasures of life, etc. if there had been no war and Saddam was
>still in power?
>
> Is it possible, as disgusting as it may seem, that a strong dictatorship
>is needed where ethnic and religious hate make peaceful co-existence
>improbable without an iron hand? Look what happened and is still happening
>in formerly Yugoslavia after Tito.
>
> How many people per day in Iraq were harmed by Saddam as compared to
>those harmed during the last year?
>
> How will thousands of years of hate and dependence on unverifiable
>religious dogma be erased or altered? Will Iraq (or Afghanistan) become
>another Israel vs. Arabs going on for who knows how long with huge amounts
>of extreme human suffering?
>
> America and the world with current American leadership is floundering in
>a mess of their own creating. Will a change of leadership help? Is there
>a solution at all?
>
> I don't have the solution and I suspect no one really does, but needed
>knowledge is missing at present to solve the problem.
>
> Where do all go from here? Please do not answer with more religious
>dogma -- that is what partially placed all in this horrendous situation!
>
> Sorrowfully,
>
> Wayne
>
> Art Deco (Wayne Fox)
> deco@moscow.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tom Hansen
> To: Joan Opyr ; Vision2020 Moscow
> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 8:39 PM
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fw: Iraq
>
>
> Greetings Visionaires -
>
> Although Mr. Finkbiner's suggestions are well intended, they are
>likely to occur immediately following a same-sex marriage conducted by
>Douglas Wilson.
>
> Let's evaluate each of his three requirements in achieving a viable
>solution.
>
> "1) Allows the Iraqi people to develop a government that provides
>stability and the rule of law."
>
> And how is this to be achieved? A government consisting of a
>coalition representative of local religions? Not likely since the Kurds,
>Shiites, and Suunis having been warring with each other for over a thousand
>years.
>
> "2) Does not further inflame the region."
>
> Nope. No warm fuzzy here, either. See 1) above. And
>
> "3) Demonstrates the US can carry out a reasonable plan, rather than
>flounder from mistake to mistake."
>
> This has not been achieved since the Great Hate of the early 1940s. I
>certainly do not see any FDRs or Harry Trumans on the horizon. As long as
>the deck consists of Bushes, Cheneys, Quayles, Clintons, and Gores, we will
>just have to play the cards we are dealt.
>
> It was a mistake getting into Iraq. It is becoming a bigger mistake
>the longer we remain there. I can see us staying until June 30th (when the
>new government is scheduled to take control), since we promised the people
>of Iraq (more specificaly the Kurds) that timeline.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com
>[mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Joan Opyr
> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:34 PM
> To: Vision2020 Moscow
> Subject: [Vision2020] Fw: Iraq
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Mike Finkbiner is no longer active on 2020, but he reads the Digest
>and asked me to forward this.
>
> Joan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Finkbiner
> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 2:48 PM
> To: auntiestablishment@hotmail.com
> Subject: Iraq
>
> One of the saddest things I see about the Iraq situation is that
>people are arguing about why we got into this mess instead of working on
>finding a solution.
>
> Setting the administration's failures aside for a moment, I think
>we need to work towards building a solution in Iraq that:
>
> 1) Allows the Iraqi people to develop a government that provides
>stability and the rule of law.
>
> 2) Does not further inflame the region.
>
> 3) Demonstrates the US can carry out a reasonable plan, rather
>than flounder from mistake to mistake.
>
> I don't know if the current administration is capable of making
>that happen. I'm afraid there might not be <anyone> who could make it
>happen, but if we spend most of our energy arguing over the cause rather
>than working towards the solution, we are just going to end up in a worse
>mess.
>
> The Bush administration has demonstrated an ugly level of
>dishonesty over this whole affair, but what's worse, I'm afraid, is that
>they have demonstrated a high level of ignorance and incompetance.
>
> Stupid and lazy people don't cause many problems, intelligent and
>active people tend to solve problems, stupid and active people are capable
>of making a real mess.
>
> But it's a mess we can't honorably walk away from so I hope we can
>concentrate finding a solution that works.
>
> Bush deserves to get tossed out on his ear. I hope Kerry can do
>that without promising to abandon the Iraqi people.
>
> Mike
>
> Mike Finkbiner
> mike_l_f@hotmail.com
>
> Civilization is not something inborn or imperishable; it must be
>acquired anew by every generation.
> - Will Durant
>
>
>
>
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