[Vision2020] Fw: Iraq
Pat Kraut
pkraut@moscow.com
Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:04:16 -0700
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Even tho there are areas where killing and warfare is still happening =
and will no matter what we or anyone else does. There are areas where =
great things are happening. We won't hear it in our media but the =
returning forces and in some other quiet places the good news is there. =
Just as in the story about Rowanda there are those picking up the =
opportunity to pull away from tribal warfare and begin to form a new =
country. It will take dilignece on our part and a leadership that won't =
step down. We do not need leadership that is whining to the UN and other =
countries that 'we need help' when all they will do is muck up the =
process with their own demands.=20
As to the war being about oil and revenge for daddy. This shows such a =
complete ignorance about oil in the world and who Bush is that it isn't =
even worthy of a site where people claim to be learned.=20
PK
Fellow Humans,
I'm afraid that I'm always stuck with asking the irritating questions, =
but here goes:
Would as many people have been killed, maimed, tortured, burned, or =
suffered and continue to suffer the loss of relatives, friends, jobs, =
the simple pleasures of life, etc. if there had been no war and Saddam =
was still in power?
Is it possible, as disgusting as it may seem, that a strong =
dictatorship is needed where ethnic and religious hate make peaceful =
co-existence improbable without an iron hand? Look what happened and is =
still happening in formerly Yugoslavia after Tito.
How many people per day in Iraq were harmed by Saddam as compared to =
those harmed during the last year?
How will thousands of years of hate and dependence on unverifiable =
religious dogma be erased or altered? Will Iraq (or Afghanistan) become =
another Israel vs. Arabs going on for who knows how long with huge =
amounts of extreme human suffering?
America and the world with current American leadership is floundering =
in a mess of their own creating. Will a change of leadership help? Is =
there a solution at all?
I don't have the solution and I suspect no one really does, but needed =
knowledge is missing at present to solve the problem.
Where do all go from here? Please do not answer with more religious =
dogma -- that is what partially placed all in this horrendous situation!
Sorrowfully,
Wayne
Art Deco (Wayne Fox)
deco@moscow.com
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Tom Hansen=20
To: Joan Opyr ; Vision2020 Moscow=20
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 8:39 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fw: Iraq
Greetings Visionaires -
Although Mr. Finkbiner's suggestions are well intended, they are =
likely to occur immediately following a same-sex marriage conducted by =
Douglas Wilson.
Let's evaluate each of his three requirements in achieving a viable =
solution.
"1) Allows the Iraqi people to develop a government that provides =
stability and the rule of law."
And how is this to be achieved? A government consisting of a =
coalition representative of local religions? Not likely since the =
Kurds, Shiites, and Suunis having been warring with each other for over =
a thousand years.
"2) Does not further inflame the region."
Nope. No warm fuzzy here, either. See 1) above. And
"3) Demonstrates the US can carry out a reasonable plan, rather than =
flounder from mistake to mistake."
This has not been achieved since the Great Hate of the early 1940s. =
I certainly do not see any FDRs or Harry Trumans on the horizon. As =
long as the deck consists of Bushes, Cheneys, Quayles, Clintons, and =
Gores, we will just have to play the cards we are dealt.
It was a mistake getting into Iraq. It is becoming a bigger mistake =
the longer we remain there. I can see us staying until June 30th (when =
the new government is scheduled to take control), since we promised the =
people of Iraq (more specificaly the Kurds) that timeline.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com =
[mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Joan Opyr
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:34 PM
To: Vision2020 Moscow
Subject: [Vision2020] Fw: Iraq
Hi all,
Mike Finkbiner is no longer active on 2020, but he reads the =
Digest and asked me to forward this.
Joan
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Finkbiner
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 2:48 PM
To: auntiestablishment@hotmail.com
Subject: Iraq
One of the saddest things I see about the Iraq situation is that =
people are arguing about why we got into this mess instead of working on =
finding a solution.
Setting the administration's failures aside for a moment, I =
think we need to work towards building a solution in Iraq that:
1) Allows the Iraqi people to develop a government that provides =
stability and the rule of law.
2) Does not further inflame the region.
3) Demonstrates the US can carry out a reasonable plan, rather =
than flounder from mistake to mistake.
I don't know if the current administration is capable of making =
that happen. I'm afraid there might not be <anyone> who could make it =
happen, but if we spend most of our energy arguing over the cause rather =
than working towards the solution, we are just going to end up in a =
worse mess.
The Bush administration has demonstrated an ugly level of =
dishonesty over this whole affair, but what's worse, I'm afraid, is that =
they have demonstrated a high level of ignorance and incompetance.
Stupid and lazy people don't cause many problems, intelligent =
and active people tend to solve problems, stupid and active people are =
capable of making a real mess.
But it's a mess we can't honorably walk away from so I hope we =
can concentrate finding a solution that works.
Bush deserves to get tossed out on his ear. I hope Kerry can do =
that without promising to abandon the Iraqi people.
Mike
Mike Finkbiner
mike_l_f@hotmail.com
Civilization is not something inborn or imperishable; it must be =
acquired anew by every generation.
- Will Durant
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
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<BODY=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; FONT: 10pt =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Even tho there are areas where killing and =
warfare is=20
still happening and will no matter what we or anyone else does. There =
are areas=20
where great things are happening. We won't hear it in our media but the=20
returning forces and in some other quiet places the good news is there. =
Just as=20
in the story about Rowanda there are those picking up the opportunity to =
pull=20
away from tribal warfare and begin to form a new country. It will take =
dilignece=20
on our part and a leadership that won't step down. We do not need =
leadership=20
that is whining to the UN and other countries that 'we need help' when =
all they=20
will do is muck up the process with their own demands. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>As to the war being about oil and revenge for =
daddy. This=20
shows such a complete ignorance about oil in the world and who Bush is =
that it=20
isn't even worthy of a site where people claim to be learned. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>PK</FONT><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Fellow Humans,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>I'm afraid that I'm always stuck with asking the =
irritating=20
questions, but here goes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Would as many people have been killed, maimed, =
tortured,=20
burned, or suffered and continue to suffer the loss of relatives, =
friends,=20
jobs, the simple pleasures of life, etc. if there had been no war and =
Saddam=20
was still in power?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Is it possible, as disgusting as it may seem, that =
a strong=20
dictatorship is needed where ethnic and religious hate make peaceful=20
co-existence improbable without an iron hand? Look what happened =
and is=20
still happening in formerly Yugoslavia after Tito.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>How many people per day in Iraq were harmed by =
Saddam as=20
compared to those harmed during the last year?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>How will thousands of years of hate and =
dependence on=20
unverifiable religious dogma be erased or altered? Will Iraq (or =
Afghanistan) become another Israel vs. Arabs going on for who knows =
how long=20
with huge amounts of extreme human suffering?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>America and the world with current American =
leadership is=20
floundering in a mess of their own creating. Will a change of =
leadership=20
help? Is there a solution at all?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV></FONT><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>I don't have the solution and I suspect no =
one really=20
does, but needed knowledge is missing at present to solve the=20
problem.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Where do all go from here? Please do not =
answer with=20
more religious dogma -- that is what partially placed all in this =
horrendous situation!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Sorrowfully,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Wayne</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Art Deco (Wayne Fox)<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dthansen@moscow.com href=3D"mailto:thansen@moscow.com">Tom =
Hansen</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dauntiestablishment@hotmail.com=20
href=3D"mailto:auntiestablishment@hotmail.com">Joan Opyr</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com =
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020=20
Moscow</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 05, 2004 =
8:39=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] Fw: =
Iraq</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>Greetings =
Visionaires=20
-</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>Although =
Mr.=20
Finkbiner's suggestions are well intended, they are likely to occur=20
immediately following a same-sex marriage conducted by Douglas=20
Wilson.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>Let's =
evaluate each=20
of his three requirements in achieving a viable=20
solution.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>"1) =
Allows the Iraqi=20
people to develop a government that provides stability and the rule =
of=20
law."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>And how =
is this to be=20
achieved? A government consisting of a coalition =
representative of=20
local religions? Not likely since the Kurds, Shiites, and =
Suunis=20
having been warring with each other for over a thousand=20
years.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>"2) Does =
not further=20
inflame the region."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT =
face=3Dverdana>Nope. No warm=20
fuzzy here, either. See 1) above. =
And</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>"3) =
Demonstrates=20
the US can carry out a reasonable plan, rather than flounder =
from=20
mistake to mistake."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>This has not been achieved since the Great Hate of =
the early=20
1940s. I certainly do not see any FDRs or Harry Trumans on the =
horizon. As long as the deck consists of Bushes, Cheneys, =
Quayles,=20
Clintons, and Gores, we will just have to play the cards we are=20
dealt.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana><FONT =
face=3Dverdana>It=20
was a mistake getting into Iraq. It is becoming a bigger =
mistake the=20
longer we remain there. I can see us staying until June 30th =
(when the=20
new government is scheduled to take control), since we promised the =
people=20
of Iraq (more specificaly the Kurds) that=20
timeline.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>Tom Hansen</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>Moscow, =
Idaho</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
vision2020-admin@moscow.com =
[mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]<B>On=20
Behalf Of </B>Joan Opyr<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 05, 2004 =
7:34=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Vision2020 Moscow<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] =
Fw:=20
Iraq<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Hi all,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Mike Finkbiner is no longer active on 2020, but he reads the =
Digest=20
and asked me to forward this.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Joan</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message =
-----</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
Mike Finkbiner</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 05, =
2004 2:48=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B>=20
auntiestablishment@hotmail.com</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Iraq</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>One of the saddest things I see about the Iraq=20
situation is that people are arguing about why we got into this =
mess=20
instead of working on finding a solution.<BR><BR>Setting the=20
administration's failures aside for a moment, I think we need to =
work=20
towards building a solution in Iraq that:<BR><BR>1) Allows the =
Iraqi=20
people to develop a government that provides stability and the =
rule of=20
law.<BR><BR>2) Does not further inflame the region.<BR><BR>3)=20
Demonstrates the US can carry out a reasonable plan, rather =
than=20
flounder from mistake to mistake.<BR><BR>I don't know if the =
current=20
administration is capable of making that happen. I'm =
afraid there=20
might not be <anyone> who could make it happen, but if we =
spend=20
most of our energy arguing over the cause rather than working =
towards=20
the solution, we are just going to end up in a worse =
mess.<BR><BR>The=20
Bush administration has demonstrated an ugly level of dishonesty =
over=20
this whole affair, but what's worse, I'm afraid, is that they =
have=20
demonstrated a high level of ignorance and =
incompetance.<BR><BR>Stupid=20
and lazy people don't cause many problems, intelligent and =
active people=20
tend to solve problems, stupid and active people are capable of =
making a=20
real mess.<BR><BR>But it's a mess we can't honorably walk away =
from so I=20
hope we can concentrate finding a solution that =
works.<BR><BR>Bush=20
deserves to get tossed out on his ear. I hope Kerry can do =
that=20
without promising to abandon the Iraqi =
people.<BR><BR>Mike<BR><BR>Mike=20
Finkbiner<BR>mike_l_f@hotmail.com<BR><BR>Civilization is not =
something=20
inborn or imperishable; it must be acquired anew by every=20
generation.<BR>- Will Durant<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR =
clear=3Dall>
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Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <A=20
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