[Vision2020] Pledge of Allegiance

Donovan Arnold donovanarnold@hotmail.com
Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:16:44 -0700 

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<P>Luke and Ted (and others if you care),</P>
<P>The Pledge of Allegiance was originally written by Francis Bellamy (although some argue it was James Upham). It was first published by "The Youth Companion"&nbsp;in Boston Massachusetts in 1892 in the September addition. The Youth Companion was like a publication for what would be considered like the "Boys Scouts of America" today. Gradually over a period of time it was adopted by many. On June 14, 1954 (Ted is correct on this one) the words "under God" were added by the United States Legislature as way of showing up the Soviet Union to&nbsp;world opinion because they preached there was no God. </P></DIV>
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<P>The Forefathers of this Nation would have been aghast by the notion of pledging allegiance to a country instead of&nbsp;God. They also believed that all government was evil and that pledging allegiance to any form of evil was blasphemy. Furthermore, nobody believed in allegiance to the federal government over their State. This type of federalism would have never been even considered by the strongest of&nbsp; Federalists such as Thomas Jefferson. </P>
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<P>I understand why some people don't like the pledge allegiance (I still do but to each their own), it was alien&nbsp;and offensive to the creators of the Constitution, seems blasphemous to believes of God if they think government is a necessary evil, and can be offensive to atheists.</P>
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<P>So the argument that "Christians" want to say or don't want say the pledge of allegiance seems kind of pointless because both "Christians" and "Atheists" have excellent&nbsp;reasons to be against or for the mandating of the pledge as it stands now with or without the words "under God".</P>
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<P>Donovan J Arnold<BR><BR></P>
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "Ted Moffett" <TED_MOFFETT@HOTMAIL.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;To: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;CC: vision2020@moscow.com 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:16:34 +0000 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Luke et. al. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;The words "under God" I believe were added to the pledge of 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;allegiance in 1954, I'm pretty sure. Check on this! 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Some schools start every school day with the pledge, so it is not 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;recited "once a week" as you suggest. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;But you demonstrate the kind of extreme all or nothing thinking I 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;mentioned when you state that it "does not matter" that the pledge 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;is recited in the public schools when they are being taught that 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;there is no God in science classes. Why do you say it does not 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;matter? Even assuming your claim that the science classes teach 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;there is no God, I think it reasonable to assume that many sincere 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;students and teachers of many faiths regard the reference to "under 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;God" in the pledge to be of great significance for their faith, and 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;the overall moral and spiritual orientation of the public schools as 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;they serve society. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;At best your case that the public schools teach there is no God 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;should be qualified to state that God's existence is acknowledged in 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;the public schools in some situations, while in other situations God 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;is either not mentioned, or to take your position, there is an 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;active agenda to teach there is no God. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;I'll skip the debate on whether the science of evolution of valid. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;I don't know the actual content of public school courses everywhere, 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;of course. But I do know what is taught in evolutionary biology 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;regarding homo sapiens etc. And I am fully aware of the advocacy 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;for atheism that you CLAIM is taught, so I do not know what you mean 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;by saying I have blinders on about what is taught in public schools. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Let me offer one debate on the nature of God that may illustrate 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;that there are sensible differences of opinion on spiritual ideas 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;that render anyone proving their point of view is the only true 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;interpretation rather unlikely. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Consider the issue of evil and Gods all powerful nature. If God is 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;all powerful, can he choose to be evil? 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;If he can choose to be and does so, he will no longer be all good. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;But if you say he cannot choose to be evil, then God ceases to be 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;all powerful. Of course you can say God could be evil if he wanted, 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;but he always chooses to be good, so his goodness nor his power are 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;limited. But when you claim God is all powerful and all good, and 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;there is evil in the world God created, it is difficult to avoid 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;putting responsibility onto God for this evil. The standard answer 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;is to point to disobeying angels or humans who bring evil into the 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;world with the free choice God gave them. But if God is all 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;powerful he knew what the choice would be before he made humanity. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;So how then is he not responsible when he knows the outcome will be 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;evil? The "problem of evil" is answered by some theologians by 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;limiting God's power in various ways. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;This very simple and brief example of the potential for reasonable 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;disagreement about the nature of God I offer to suggest there there 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;is not just one truthful way of viewing God. Or if there is, human 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;beings can't figure it all out. So it is sensible to accept 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;reasonable disagreements on the nature of God, and avoiding 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;asserting that your interpretation has to be the only correct one. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Ted 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;From: "Luke" <LUKENIEUWSMA@SOFTHOME.NET>
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;To: "Ted Moffett" <TED_MOFFETT@HOTMAIL.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;CC: "vision2020" <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:24:03 -0700 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Hello, Ted: 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; I really doubt that the words "under God" will be removed by law 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;from the 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; pledge of allegiance soon. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; Why do you say this? What evidence do you have? 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Well, for one, the fact that someone actually tried it. In our 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;relativistic 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;age, some people like to argue that the name "God" is too 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;religious. For 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;example, a Hindu would be insulted; the official total of Hindu 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;gods has 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;risen to 30,000,000. Our society today likes to make the exception 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;the rule, 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;and sooner or later the Supreme Court will make a ruling taking out 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;"under 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;God." 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;BTW, it was added around1930; previously there was no "under God." 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;What goes 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;in 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;can be taken back out. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; But the point is, how can you say the schools deny God's 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;existence with 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; millions of students all over the US saying this pledge with the 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;words 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; "under God." Sounds like acknowledging God's existence to me. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;It doesn't matter if they say once a week the word "God" when they 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;are being 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;taught that there is no god in their science classes all year. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; You have an extreme interpretation of what it means to believe 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;in God that 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; forces you to take extreme positions. Like your position on 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;biology and 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; evolution. Science does not deny the possibility of the soul 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;and an 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; afterlife. This is a matter of religious faith. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;The two are intertwined. Science is directly connected to religion; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;there's 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;no coincidence that most of today's leading Darwinists are 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;convinced there 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;is no God. They believe we came from monkeys, and the only logical 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;conclusion to evolutionary thinking is not that there is probably 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;no God, 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;but that there IS no God. You should check out the past debates 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;between Will 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Provine and Philip Johnson, and you will hear exactly what I am 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;saying, 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;except not from a Christian but from an atheist, Mr. Provine! 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; said, a matter of religious faith. Many very brilliant 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;scientists who 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; believe in evolution are also Christians. They have a different 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;view of 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; these issues that allows them to accept the science of evolution 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;and 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; in Christ. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;That doesn't make evolution true. Due to irreducible complexity, 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;gene 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;density, and DNA, we can know for certain that evolution doesn't 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;work. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; I do not have any blinders on. I am open to many 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;interpretations of the 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; world around me on issues of science, spirituality and God etc. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Ah, you have proved my point. Your blinders kept you from seeing 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;the actual 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;point of what I was saying. What I said was that you had blinders 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;regarding what is actually taught in the public schools. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; Thanks for the exchange. I hope your faith serves you well! I 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;just wish 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; you would with a bit more humility consider that other faiths 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;might have 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; value and truth that you are not acknowledging. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;I'm not saying that my faith is great because Luke Nieuwsma 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;believes it; no, 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;I am saying that God's sacrifice is so great, so wonderful that it 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;is free 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;to all men; this is not 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;pride, this is called certainty. Ergo, I claim that Jesus Christ is 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;the only 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;way to happiness, joy, and salvation. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; The world does not have to be an all or nothing proposition on 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;issues of 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt; spirituality and faith. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Whoop! There goes absolute truth. There goes logic. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Ted, it rather does have to be this or that. I've said it several 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;times, but 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;I'll say it again. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;1)There is absolute truth. Either something is true, or it is 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;false. Easy to 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;understand. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;2)Therefore, there can only be one true religion, though many false 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;ones. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;You cannot have two contradictory religions (e.g. Christianity and 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Buddhism) 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;true at the same time. So no, all ways do not lead to God. And no, 
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;we're not 
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;all on the same road. Either you're on the straight and narrow, or 
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;you're on 
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;the broad and crooked. 
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Take care, and God bless, 
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Luke 
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<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>
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<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com 
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