[Vision2020] MSD Score Highest in State on SAT
Donovan Arnold
donovanarnold@hotmail.com
Wed, 04 Jun 2003 02:29:23 -0700
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<P>Folks,</P></DIV>
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<P>I don't mean to disappoint those that try so hard to generate evidence that the MSD is incompetent and while I don't put much merit into SAT scores, as you may or may not have heard the MSD just released the results of the Idaho SAT scores. MSD 10th graders scored the HIGHEST in the state for reading and second highest in the state for Math. The rest of the grades tested, 2nd-12th, did extremely well and much higher then the state average. They also have already surpassed the expectations for the spring. Good job and congrats to the students, teachers, and parents that worked hard to achieve this!</P>
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<P>I have replied to Mr. Courtney's email below ( those that dislike long meaningless debate about the future of the MSD may now close this email :) )<BR><BR></P>
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<DIV></DIV>Dale wrote:
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<DIV></DIV>>"* Donovan says that MSD has only lost 325 students since its high in
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<DIV></DIV>>1998."
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<P>> That is incorrect. MSD's high was in 1993 (2,788 students)."</P>
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<P>"I respond: </P>
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<P>That is not what I said Dale, What I said was that it has only consistently gone down since 1998. Meaning that the year before was not less in population then that year. Between 1993-1998 there were plenty of years where the enrollment was higher then the year before. I don't have the chart with me anymore, but I will give you an example. Say in 1993 you had 2800 students, then in 1994 you have 2500 students, then in 1995 you have 2600 students. Then in 1996 you have 2500 students, then in 1997 you have 2600 students. That is the pattern. If it gains and loses students every year it is difficult to tell it is losing population until a certain period of time. It was like watching the stock market. It goes up 3 then down 2 then up 3 then down 4 then up 5 then down 4. If you watch it for a short period of time you can't tell what direction it is going. However, if you graph it over a period of time you can see a direction it is going. You make it sound li!
ke in 1993 they had 2800 students. Then in 1994 they had 2750 students then in 1995 they had 2700 students. It is NOT like that all. It is one year 2700, the next 2500, the next 2600. If you saw those number you can not predict by just looking at those numbers if the next year it will be 2700, 2500, 2400, or 2800. That is all the data they had till 1998. After 1998 ever year it was less students consistently, meaning the pervious year had less students then the next every year.</P>
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<P>>"* They have been losing students every year since 1993." </P>
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<P>I gripe Back:</P>
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<P>Not every year, some years they picked up students, for example 1995 had more students then 1994. </P>
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<P>Dale asks?</P>
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<P>"* Is that a trend? Well, if losing 50 students per year for the last </P>
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<P>>10 years isn't a trend, then I sure don't know what one is!"</P>
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<P>Donovan whines back:</P>
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<P>Yeah, that is what, less then 10 students per grade? Has Moscow faced this trend before and came back again, YES, in the 1950 and 1960's. That is what happens in small University towns.</P>
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<P>Dale informs:</P>
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<P>* He talks about gaining different numbers in different grades making </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>it difficult to gage where how many teachers you need.
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<DIV></DIV>>* However, those numbers are well known by MSD.
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<DIV></DIV>>"* In fact, the Superintendent herself said that the numbers in the
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<DIV></DIV>>Elementary are decreasing at a higher rate than Junior/High School. Her
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<DIV></DIV>>concern (rightly) is that those Elementary grades feed into the Junior High
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<DIV></DIV>>and High School. One reason for not pursing a new high school facility was
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<DIV></DIV>>that she knows 6 years from now she's going to have 300 less children than she does today!"
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<P>Donovan bellows:</P>
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<P>She must be a psychic then. Is it not possible that parents with HS aged children can come into the MSD? How many parents from the East coast are coming to Moscow in 6 years? How about when the new Naylor Farms industry comes to town. What happens if the economy gets worse and a ton of middle aged parents with kids in Junior High come into town to go back to school at the University? Don't think it could happen, well it sure did in 1991-1993. Check your graphs on that time. What if the economy gets worse and parents can't afford to send their kids to private school anymore? </P>
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<P> Dale informs:</P>
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<P>>* Also, Donovan notes that the Census shows that Latah County and </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>Moscow have an increasing elementary/secondary student population.
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<DIV></DIV>>* He is right. We've been thru that on this list before:
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<P>>* MSD continues to decrease at a rate of 50 students per year." </P>
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<P>Donovan explains Statistics:</P>
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<P>On average, that could mean exactly nothing then. If we have 3000 students one year, 2800 the next, 2900 the following, 3000 the next, 2600 the next, 2575, then 2625. On average we are losing 50 students a year. So what! How do you budget for that one year in advance? You could base it on the number of students in the grade before but then you would be wrong. Because people have the ability to move into and out of the city. They also have the ability to move their children into and out of public and private schools. This problem is further compounded by the notion that there is greater fluctuation within the different grade levels K-12. They can't move a teacher from the elementary to HS classroom always so easily. Nor does it make sense to hirer the most amount of teachers at the beginning of the year and then fire them after you get the number in and then try to rehire them the following year when the population is higher.&nb!
sp;No good teachers would apply at your school reducing the quality of education. </P>
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<P>Dale wrote:</P>
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<P>>* Yet Moscow overall increases at a rate of 30-35 students per year </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>(per the 2000 census).
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<DIV></DIV>>"* How odd! Where are those 80-85 students per year going? Perhaps MSD
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<P>>should hire a private investigator to find out."></P>
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<P>I Reply: </P>
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<P>Actually, we already know where, it is private schools. And this what I have been trying to explain to you about why shrinking and scaling back the capacity of Moscow public schools is a bad idea after a certain point. Private schools can only have so many students. First, parents have to agree with the ideology of the school (religion, curriculum, other interests). Second, they have to be accepted (meet the schools standards). Third, they parents have to have the money to send the child there. Fourth, the school has to have the capacity to hold the number of children. Fifth, the school must have all of the grade levels K-12. Six, the school must exceed state school achievement level in order for the school to remain appealing and constantly attaching new clients since they lose students every year. Finally, the school must remain profitable. If any of these factors changes then the MSD has to absorb those children. Current trends a!
re that the private schools in Moscow will not continue to absorb the same percentage of children as to keep the public schools from any net gain in student enrollment. </P>
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<P>>Dale wrote:</P>
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<P>* I agree that much of the cost requirements have been imposed upon </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>the government schools by the government. But hey! You work for the boss. If
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<DIV></DIV>>Uncle Sam is going to give you the money, you have to do what he says.
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<DIV></DIV>>That's the beauty of the private sector. If parents say something is a bogus
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<P>>requirement, they don't have to pay for it. </P>
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<P>I agree on that one.</P>
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<P>>Dale Wrote:</P>
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<P>* e.g., if a group of parents want to lay out an additional </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>$500/year/child for top-notched sports programs, let them. But if someone
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<DIV></DIV>>else wants to make use of community sports programs and only pay educators
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<DIV></DIV>>to educate, then they should have that right (and get a better education for
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<P>>less). </P>
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<P>Donovan Agrees:</P>
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<P>>Dale Wrote:</P>
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<P>"* Same thing with "shop", "typing", "home economics", etc. Parents can </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>chose whether they want their kids in a more rigorous academic program or in
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<P>>a more VoTech type of program." </P>
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<P>Heavens NO! I was almost forced into a program like that. I prefer to get a good rounded education and then decide for myself later. I don't think parents should have the power to destroy opportunities for their children, only add to them. Forcing a child to choose, or worse yet, forcing them into a specialized education at such a young age is a bad idea. I think every child should learn how to hammer in a nail, cook, and type. They are essential skills. Almost all jobs from working at burger king to administration require some typing skills. The other two are important so that you are not dependant on the government welfare programs to take care of you. </P>
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<P>>* My comparisons of private (non-parochial) schools to government </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>schools were meant to be an apples-to-apples comparison. You cannot compare
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<DIV></DIV>>Higher Ed costs to elementary/secondary school costs. One would think that
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<DIV></DIV>>the former would be more expensive. As it turns out, it's not. Go figure!
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<DIV></DIV>>* You talk about monopolies and use telephones, computers, and
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<DIV></DIV>>railways as examples of natural monopolies. Those are products; a monopoly
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<DIV></DIV>>is a company with a product line. A natural monopoly only exist where the
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<DIV></DIV>>government legislates one to exist (locally: Verizon, Avista, etc) or
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<DIV></DIV>>subsidizes one to exist. The government schools are as much of a monopoly as
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<DIV></DIV>>the US Postal Service was -- and we see how good competition was for them."
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<P>Telephones and railways are not products they are services. I do not buy telephone lines, I do not buy railroads or trains. I am buying access to a service. That is exactly what schools are, a service to children. A natural monopoly is defined and regulated by the government because it is a monopoly. The government helps them to exist if they don't. It does not invent them like you stated. Railroads were not invented by the government. Nor was computers, nor was telephones. What happened was that it was too expensive to the companies to be competitive in the same area. So they regulate the areas to make sure that the one company in the area is does not charge what ever they want to charge but also has sole claim over that jurisdiction. </P>
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<P>I don't think you can compare the delivery of the mail to the care of a child as you stated above. You seem to be contradicting yourself in what you want done about the school system. On the one hand you want them to shrink the number of schools and teachers. But on the other hand you want to pay for school vouchers to fund 5 additional private schools. Do you really think this will decrease the cost? </P>
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<P>>Dale says: </P>
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<P>"* Finally, you really amuse me with the talk about "You owe the </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>government; they don't owe you". That seems like a very neo-fascist statement. In a democracy, the people are the government."
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<P>Exactly, you own those people a thanks, the government, the people, same thing.</P>
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<P>If I owe someone a "thanks", it's those who have been "thugged" for everything that I now have. </P>
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<P>That was what I mean. However, I hope they all show up at your door and complain about it like you are now :).J/K</P>
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<P>>However, it's kind of difficult to thank someone for being economically </P>
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<P>>assaulted so that I could benefit.</P>
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<P>try it!</P>
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<P>When we're paying taxes at a the near 50% </P>
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<P>I Reply: </P>
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<P>Only the middle class are taxed 50%. The poor can't be taxed for something they don't have and the GOP has given a 10% tax cut to those making 100K or more and about 3-4% tax cut to those between 100K and poverty level.</P>
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<P>Dale Asks:</P>
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<P>level, that's not a time to offer thanks. BTW, do you know how much taxes </P>
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<P>>were raised to cause the Boston Tea Party? </P>
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<P>I answer:</P>
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<P>Yes, it was a 5% tax on the tea. However, (while I know you were taught it was about huge taxes that a huge mob of American colonists attacked a british boat and spilled a huge cargo of tea over board, it was nothing like that) the boston tea party was not about tax rates. It was about a foreign power thousands of miles away taking money, invading homes, and shooting unarmed people on the streets. In general it was taxation without representation. The colonists were taxed about 5% on things most people didn't even buy to a government that provided no services or protection and it was one sole person, King George, that got the money. </P>
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<P>Donovan Lectures Dale :)</P>
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<P>You on the other hand get plenty of both, taxation and representation. I don't know why you are complaining, you have two Republican Senators, two Republican Congressmen, a supermajority in both houses of the Idaho State legislature, a Republican Governor and Lt Governor, and even a fairly conservative city council and Mayor. And of course the President, US Senate, US House of Representative, and the majority on the Supreme Court are all conservatives like you! You should be happy with their decisions, after all the problems are caused by us moderate liberals that get in the way and were gone. </P>
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<DIV></DIV>Thanks!
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<DIV>Donovan J Arnold</DIV>
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