[Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
Tom Hansen
thansen@moscow.com
Mon, 2 Jun 2003 19:16:48 -0700
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WHAT?!?!? Are we speaking (and understanding) the same language, Mr.
Arnold. That isn't even bending or twisting what I was discussing. If you
are going to tell as big a lie as that about someone, Mr. Arnold, the least
you can do is wait until their backs are turned.
Tom Hansen
Moscow
-----Original Message-----
From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:42 PM
To: johnbharrell@yahoo.com; thansen@moscow.com; Cjsnightclub@aol.com;
vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
John,
No actually, the conversation was orginally about the fact that the
Federal Government spent $26 Billion on education and Mr. Hansen wanted to
know where I thought in the US Constitution it stated they had the authority
to spent this. I listed some of the possible places it could give the
authority and right for them to do. I named two places that were it was used
in court cases. He replied saying that it was in Article VI. Which I agree
it is, but I would not use that one to make the strongest case for it.
Thanks!
Donovan J Arnold
>From: John Harrell
>To: Donovan Arnold , thansen@moscow.com, Cjsnightclub@aol.com,
vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:33:48 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I understood Mr. Hansen's email to be a discussion regarding the proper
>roles of the federal government and the states and/or people, as
specified
>in his last paragraph. The tenth amendment and (treaties) are the usual
>suspects in such a discussion. Therefore, I inferred the tenth amendment
>as being
>implied by his statements.
>
>Cheers!
>John Harrell
>
>
>Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
>John,
>
>
>
>
>How do you know if Mr. Hansen has a correct or incorrect interpretation
of the X Amendment to the constitution when he never even mentioned it? I
did. He stated that my interpretation was incorrect that it was the Article
VI of the Constitution. So I am at a loss where you are coming from. Perhaps
you misunderstood what I wrote vs. what he wrote. Nor did I say that he was
wrong, just that he needed to go a little further and that Article VI and
the IX Amendment was further clarified by the X Amendment and court rulings.
>
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>Donovan J. Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: John Harrell
>
>
> >To: Donovan Arnold , thansen@moscow.com, Cjsnightclub@aol.com,
vision2020@moscow.com
>
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>
> >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:26:34 -0700 (PDT)
>
> >
>
> >Mr. Arnold,
>
> >
>
> >Mr. Hansen is correct in his understanding of the tenth amendment.
>
> >
>
> >Your example of Prohibition is a perfect example of why Mr. Hansen's
>
> >understanding is correct.
>
> >
>
> >The federal government's power (authority) is bound by the written
constitution
>
> >as expressly stated in the tenth amendment. If the federal government
>
> >wants to change it's power over the people and/or the states, the
>
> >constitution allows this to happen, but through the amendment process
>
> >(except as noted previously by treaties.) No new amendment, no new
>
> >federal power.
>
> >
>
> >When the federal government government wanted to give itself the power
>
> >over the states and the people with respect to alcohol, it had to
create an
>
> >amendment giving itself the power to do so, otherwise, the right would
>
> >still be reserved with the states or the people.
>
> >
>
> >The tenth amendment:
>
> >"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
>
> >prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States
respectively, or
>
> >to the people."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >The congress critters of yesterday understood the proper roles of the
>
> >federal government and the states and/or people. Today, the congress
>
> >critters have usurped their power and authority by no longer following
the
>
> >law. And the newspapers and the states and the people just follow right
>
> >behind like good little sheeple.
>
> >
>
> >This is why we see so many people crying out to the federal government
>
> >to take of this problem or that problem. And the federal government is
more
>
> >than happy to oblige by taking more and more power. This is why I
carried
>
> >it to the next level. Many people today clamor for the UN to get more
and
>
> >more involved in our lives. And of course the UN will be more than
happy
>
> >to oblige by taking more and more power. All this power and authority
that
>
> >is being usurped by the federal government and eventually the UN means
>
> >loss of individual freedoms, let alone just the precedent that the
governments
>
> >doesn't have to follow the laws. And if the governments dont have to
follow
>
> >the laws, then why do the people?
>
> >
>
> >Cheers!
>
> >John Harrell
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
> >
>
> >Mr Hansen,
>
> >
>
> >I strongly suggest that you take another history course with a
different teacher or start talking to some other people in the area of the
law. Article VI simple states that all laws on the federal level are higher
then laws made in the states in that they are not in violation of the
Constitution. The Constitution DOES reserve certain rights to states. The
federal government can't pass laws over or in violation of this even though
its laws are higher. If you knew your history you would also know that the X
amendment was created to clarify this "supposed contradiction" that people
were concerned about between the IX Amendment and Article VI of the
Constitution, question being,"How can states have rights if all laws by the
Federal Government are higher then the states laws?". Rather then giving you
a 3 month debate of the Constitution and the rights involved, I simple gave
the short version. Just as if someone asked if Alcohol was legal in the
United States.! I co! uld simple say "no" or I could give you a history
between Jan. 16, 1919 and Dec. 5, 1933 and all the legalities behind it. I
choose to make it as uncomplicated as possible for you. If you want I really
get into all the complications for you and list out about 5 court cases of
boring legal documentation. It would take about 5 days to read it all. If
you want it let me know, it takes about five minutes to get it for you. One
other comment, "Our Forefathers" did not all have the same intentions. Some
wanted a federalist government, others wanted a very weak federalist
government and strong state governments. Thus created the Federalist Party
and the Anti-Federalist Party.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >Thanks!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >Donovan J Arnold
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >From: "Tom Hansen"
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Reply-To:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , ,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 05:59:36 -0700
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Donovan Arnold states:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >"The tenth amendment also states that all rights not defined or
prohibited
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >by the constitution are reserved to the people. Or in other words,
the
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >people can make laws that are not in direct violation with US
Constitution."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Mr. Arnold: You obviously failed to read Article VI of the US
Constitution.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >It reads:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >" . . . This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which
shall be
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be
made,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of
the
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything
in the
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >I believe that this is not a contradiction. We had discussed this in
a
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >couple of US History courses I have attended. Our forefathers'
intentions
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >were, to put it in laymens' terms, to relay all rights not deined
within the
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >US Constitution to the individual states, provided that any laws or
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >constitutions established within the individual states are not in
violation
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >with the US Constitution, the "supreme law of the land".
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Tom Hansen
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Moscow
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >---------------------------------
>
> >Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
>
> >
>
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>
>
>
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D005201302-03062003>WHAT?!?!? =20
Are we speaking (and understanding) the same language, Mr. Arnold. =
That=20
isn't even bending or twisting what I was discussing. If you are =
going to=20
tell as big a lie as that about someone, Mr. Arnold, the least you can =
do is=20
wait until their backs are turned.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D005201302-03062003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D005201302-03062003>Tom =
Hansen</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D005201302-03062003>Moscow</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Donovan Arnold=20
[mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 02, =
2003 6:42=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> johnbharrell@yahoo.com; thansen@moscow.com;=20
Cjsnightclub@aol.com; vision2020@moscow.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:=20
[Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P>John, </P>
<P>No actually, the conversation was orginally about the fact that the =
Federal=20
Government spent $26 Billion on education and Mr. Hansen wanted =
to know=20
where I thought in the US Constitution it stated they had the =
authority to=20
spent this. I listed some of the possible places it could give the =
authority=20
and right for them to do. I named two places that were it was =
used in=20
court cases. He replied saying that it was in Article VI. =
Which I=20
agree it is, but I would not use that one to make the strongest=20
case for it. </P>
<P>Thanks!</P>
<P>Donovan J Arnold <BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: John Harrell <JOHNBHARRELL@YAHOO.COM>
<DIV></DIV>>To: Donovan Arnold <DONOVANARNOLD@HOTMAIL.COM>,=20
thansen@moscow.com, Cjsnightclub@aol.com, vision2020@moscow.com=20
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding=20
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:33:48 -0700 (PDT)=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>I understood Mr. Hansen's email to be a discussion =
regarding=20
the proper=20
<DIV></DIV>>roles of the federal government and the states and/or =
people,=20
as specified=20
<DIV></DIV>>in his last paragraph. The tenth amendment and =
(treaties) are=20
the usual=20
<DIV></DIV>>suspects in such a discussion. Therefore, I inferred =
the tenth=20
amendment=20
<DIV></DIV>>as being=20
<DIV></DIV>>implied by his statements.=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>Cheers!=20
<DIV></DIV>>John Harrell=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>Donovan Arnold <DONOVANARNOLD@HOTMAIL.COM>wrote:=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>John,=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>How do you know if Mr. Hansen has a correct or =
incorrect=20
interpretation of the X Amendment to the constitution when he never =
even=20
mentioned it? I did. He stated that my interpretation was incorrect =
that it=20
was the Article VI of the Constitution. So I am at a loss where you =
are coming=20
from. Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote vs. what he wrote. Nor =
did I say=20
that he was wrong, just that he needed to go a little further and that =
Article=20
VI and the IX Amendment was further clarified by the X Amendment and =
court=20
rulings.=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>Thanks!=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>Donovan J. Arnold=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >From: John Harrell=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >To: Donovan Arnold , thansen@moscow.com,=20
Cjsnightclub@aol.com, vision2020@moscow.com=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:26:34 -0700 (PDT)=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Mr. Arnold,=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Mr. Hansen is correct in his understanding of the =
tenth=20
amendment.=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Your example of Prohibition is a perfect example =
of why=20
Mr. Hansen's=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >understanding is correct.=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >The federal government's power (authority) is =
bound by the=20
written constitution=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >as expressly stated in the tenth amendment. If the =
federal=20
government=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >wants to change it's power over the people and/or =
the=20
states, the=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >constitution allows this to happen, but through =
the=20
amendment process=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >(except as noted previously by treaties.) No new=20
amendment, no new=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >federal power.=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >When the federal government government wanted to =
give=20
itself the power=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >over the states and the people with respect to =
alcohol, it=20
had to create an=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >amendment giving itself the power to do so, =
otherwise, the=20
right would=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >still be reserved with the states or the people.=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >The tenth amendment:=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >"The powers not delegated to the United States by =
the=20
Constitution, nor=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to =
the States=20
respectively, or=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >to the people."=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >The congress critters of yesterday understood the =
proper=20
roles of the=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >federal government and the states and/or people. =
Today,=20
the congress=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >critters have usurped their power and authority by =
no=20
longer following the=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >law. And the newspapers and the states and the =
people just=20
follow right=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >behind like good little sheeple.=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >This is why we see so many people crying out to =
the=20
federal government=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >to take of this problem or that problem. And the =
federal=20
government is more=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >than happy to oblige by taking more and more =
power. This=20
is why I carried=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >it to the next level. Many people today clamor for =
the UN=20
to get more and=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >more involved in our lives. And of course the UN =
will be=20
more than happy=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >to oblige by taking more and more power. All this =
power=20
and authority that=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >is being usurped by the federal government and =
eventually=20
the UN means=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >loss of individual freedoms, let alone just the =
precedent=20
that the governments=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >doesn't have to follow the laws. And if the =
governments=20
dont have to follow=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >the laws, then why do the people?=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Cheers!=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >John Harrell=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Donovan Arnold wrote:=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Mr Hansen,=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >I strongly suggest that you take another history =
course=20
with a different teacher or start talking to some other people in the =
area of=20
the law. Article VI simple states that all laws on the federal level =
are=20
higher then laws made in the states in that they are not in violation =
of the=20
Constitution. The Constitution DOES reserve certain rights to states. =
The=20
federal government can't pass laws over or in violation of this even =
though=20
its laws are higher. If you knew your history you would also know that =
the X=20
amendment was created to clarify this "supposed contradiction" that =
people=20
were concerned about between the IX Amendment and Article VI of the=20
Constitution, question being,"How can states have rights if all laws =
by the=20
Federal Government are higher then the states laws?". Rather then =
giving you a=20
3 month debate of the Constitution and the rights involved, I simple =
gave the=20
short version. Just as if someone asked if Alcohol was legal in the =
United=20
States.! I co! uld simple say "no" or I could give you a history =
between Jan.=20
16, 1919 and Dec. 5, 1933 and all the legalities behind it. I choose =
to make=20
it as uncomplicated as possible for you. If you want I really get into =
all the=20
complications for you and list out about 5 court cases of boring legal =
documentation. It would take about 5 days to read it all. If you want =
it let=20
me know, it takes about five minutes to get it for you. One other =
comment,=20
"Our Forefathers" did not all have the same intentions. Some wanted a=20
federalist government, others wanted a very weak federalist government =
and=20
strong state governments. Thus created the Federalist Party and the=20
Anti-Federalist Party.=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Thanks!=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Donovan J Arnold=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >From: "Tom Hansen"=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >Reply-To:=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , ,=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational =
Funding=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 05:59:36 -0700=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >Donovan Arnold states:=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >"The tenth amendment also states that all =
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<DIV></DIV>> > >by the constitution are reserved to the =
people. Or in=20
other words, the=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >people can make laws that are not in direct =
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with US Constitution."=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >Mr. Arnold: You obviously failed to read =
Article VI=20
of the US Constitution.=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >It reads:=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >" . . . This Constitution, and the laws of =
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States which shall be=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties =
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which shall be made,=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >under the authority of the United States, =
shall be=20
the supreme law of the=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >land; and the judges in every state shall be =
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thereby, anything in the=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >Constitution or laws of any State to the =
contrary=20
notwithstanding."=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >I believe that this is not a contradiction. =
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discussed this in a=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >couple of US History courses I have attended. =
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forefathers' intentions=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >were, to put it in laymens' terms, to relay =
all=20
rights not deined within the=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >US Constitution to the individual states, =
provided=20
that any laws or=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >constitutions established within the =
individual=20
states are not in violation=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >with the US Constitution, the "supreme law of =
the=20
land".=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >Tom Hansen=20
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<DIV></DIV>> > >Moscow=20
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<DIV></DIV>> >---------------------------------=20
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