[Vision2020] Public vs. Private Schools and Parental Involvement

[Ted Moffett]

Dale, et. al.

Why colored text for your vision2020 posts?  It increases the size of the 
e-mail, which for those of us with limited inbox storage is an issue.

Any parent that wishes, if they can afford it, or find the funding somehow, 
can send their child to a private school, of which there are numerous 
options offering a wide variety of approaches to education.  How are the 
public schools a government provided "monopoly?"  This is like saying that 
because there are government funded programs to help pay medical care for 
SOME children, the government is running a government provided monopoly over 
doctors and related medical industries.

Also, all comparisons between public and private schools must be examined in 
the context of how each type of school filters the children that attend 
through the types of families and economic background the children come 
from.  On average, parents who send their children to private schools are 
significantly more involved and concerned about their children's education, 
and more financially well off, than parents who send their children to 
public schools.

This is sad, but I believe it is correct.

The involvement of parents in a child's education can make a tremendous 
difference in how well and how much a child learns.  Even the difference 
between a family that reads books to each other with children's involvement 
on a daily basis,  and a family that does not do this, is tremendous.

Often the public schools are expected to educate children who are seriously 
impeded in their educational development by what happens away from school.  
This is an difficult situation.  Children sent to private schools on the 
whole, I repeat, are not nearly as educationally impeded away from school as 
children sent to public schools.   Public schools must take children in, 
with some exceptions, while private schools do not have the same legal 
mandate to take any and all children at their doorstep.  Many parents think 
of the public schools as taxpayer funded babysitting, even parents who are 
financially above the lower classes.  Educational disadvantages are not 
always linked to economics.  These parents often expect the public schools 
to do the whole job of education, while they give little attention to their 
children's intellectual development.

In this ongoing vision2020 debate about public vs. private  schools, I think 
the variable of the parents involvement in the education of their own 
children, a very significant variable, has been overlooked.  I believe it 
can by itself make the difference between a child who performs well in 
school and one who does not.

This might be one of the best arguments for private schools:  parents who 
pay separately (not via taxes) for their own child's education are more 
motivated to be involved in that education themselves when they see the 
money come out of their own pay as a separate expense.  Of course, I may 
have this backwards, insofar as the fact that they pay for a private school 
shows that before they started to pay they were more motivated to provide a 
quality education for their child.

Here is a thought experiment: what if all public schools were closed, and 
all the children in public schools transferred to a variety of private 
schools, their education being paid by government vouchers to the private 
schools.  According to Dale's arguments, the private schools could give a 
better education for less money.  But what would really happen?  Would we 
see a significant drop in the performance of the private schools?  Would 
they be forced to raise the costs of education to compensate for the influx 
of difficult students, with parents who are less involved?

Ted

>From: "Dale Courtney" <dale@courtneys.us>
>To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] MSD trends
>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 04:00:56 -0700
>
>Donovan,
>
>A brief reply:
>
>*	The validity of my prediction for 2008-2009? I'm using an historical
>analysis starting with the 1997 data that takes all the data points since
>into account. You'll have to wait and see if I'm right. Let me tell you 
>this
>much: MSD did their enrollment projections (
><http://www.sd281.k12.id.us/GeneralInformation/files/Enrollment.pdf>
>http://www.sd281.k12.id.us/GeneralInformation/files/Enrollment.pdf). Yours
>truly was off by 3%. MSD was off by 216%. In fact, MSD predicted to have as
>many students at the end of 2004 as they are starting with now (i.e., they
>were off by a whole year). Not a great one-year prediction!
>
>*	Regardless of whether MSD reaches my predicted 50% point in 2009,
>that doesn't invalidate the rest of my data.
>
>*	There has been a lot of research done about the cost of educating
>children with disabilities. This is the standard liberal's bug-a-boo for 
>the
>cost of education. However, as expensive as it is, it doesn't account for a
>3.7 times increase in total spending. If you would like, I can put you in
>touch with those research findings.
>
>*	Your line "people should be taxed based on what they can afford"
>sounds strangely like  "From each according to their ability, to each
>according to their needs". Now, where have I heard that before...
>
>*	Your fixed costs examples don't work. There are many school systems
>in Idaho that do not have all those things you require. Furthermore, as MSD
>continues to get smaller, there are things that we can no longer afford.
>We're not a tier-1 school, though we're paying as though we were! (and not
>getting the results to boot!).
>
>*	Your examples about the cost of educating going up are interesting,
>but ultimately unhelpful. Private schools have been well able to control
>spending significantly under that of the government schools; and they have
>the results to show for it...
>
>*	I never said that SAT/ACT was an indicator of IQ. However, just
>because SAT/ACT scores are inappropriately used doesn't mean that they are
>inappropriate as an assessment. What they stipulate they measure. They have
>stated objectives, and the validity and reliability of those tests compute
>those stated objectives. As it is, there's a high corollary between ACT
>scores and a college student's likelihood of doing well and graduating. It
>is also one of the few objective tests that can be given. So, no, they 
>don't
>measure IQ (nothing does). But what they do measure is an appropriate
>assessment.
>
>One final question to you: what is the major concern about having a 
>monopoly
>in charge of education? A monopoly can set the price of the product to
>whatever they want because their is no competition to drive it down. And
>that's what we see with government education. If Americans treated 
>education
>like every other market good, we would have choice. Choice is always good;
>and choice drives down prices and increases quality.
>
>Most liberals (rightly so) scream about monopolies. Yet, when it comes to
>probably the most important aspect of our society, liberals insist on 
>having
>a government provided monopoly. Why is that?
>
>Best,
>Dale
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On
>Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
>Sent: Sunday, 01 June, 2003 11:10
>To: dale@courtneys.us; vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] MSD trends
>
>
>
>Dale,
> > >
>
> >You wrote:
>
>"First, concerning the validity of those numbers. I received them directly
>
> >from MSD, and they had them printed out from the State Board of Education
>in
> >Boise. They are from the Board's payroll computer in Idaho by which they
> >gather all of the statistics for the entire state. In those graphs, there
> >were no massaging of numbers. What you saw plotted were the final numbers 
>I
>
>
> >received directly from them."
>
>I was not questioning the graph plots for the costs. I know that 
>information
>is accurate. I am questioning the validity of the prediction that you or
>anyone knows the population of students in the MSD for 2008-2009 with any
>certainty(I want the confidence interval for this test and variables they
>used). The numbers for the MSD have gone up and down by as much as 10% 
>every
>decade since the 1950's when my mom was going to school here. Back then, 
>the
>Catholic private school reduced the numbers for the public schools. Then 
>the
>population of Moscow increased and the school eventually did not do the 
>same
>percentage. Then the University population went up and down too, also
>effecting the number of students going to K-12. Nobody can predict the
>economy of the State and the University students in the year 2008-09.
>
> >
> >Second, those numbers are collected for every school district in Idaho. 
>If
> >there is a bias in the numbers, then there is a systematic bias across 
>the
> >state. That means an argument of "well, MSD has these special things"
> >doesn't fly. We're one of 114 school districts in the state.
> >
> >"Third, concerning your question about disabilities:
> >
> >* Why do you think that the disability rate is increasing
> >exponentially? Why would that be? Can you tell me what the disability
>
> >numbers are for Idaho and MSD?"
>
>I know that in the last few years the number of students diagnosed with a
>disability has increased. The cost of diagnosing and treating a child with 
>a
>disability has increased. I also know that government regulations have
>increased costs as well. In addition, the number of students with a
>disability is more likely now to attend a public school then in the past.
>
> >* How much more does a child with disabilities cost to educate over
> >and above a non-disabled child? (BTW, I know the answer to that one).
> >
> >Fourth, the State of Idaho's spending only increased by a factor of 2.1
>over
> >the same period of time. MSD was 3.7. Guess where MSD got the extra
>
> >$3,111,696? Yup, local taxes have increased by that much just for MSD!
>
>This I agree fully with you. I am 100% against property taxes. I think it
>should be illegal to tax people continuously on a piece of property they 
>had
>already bought and paid for and paid about 50% in interest on. In addition,
>this form of taxation assumes, and often falsely, that if you own property
>then you have money. People should be required to pay what they can afford,
>not be forced to buy what they already have over and over and over again.
>
> >
> >"Fifth, concerning the fixed costs of educating a child, you could look 
>at
> >the smallest school districts in Idaho to see what their budgets were, 
>then
>
> >extrapolate from there. There are four school districts in Idaho 
>(Prairie;
> >Three Creek; Arbon; and Pleasant Valley) that fall into those categories.
>Of
> >course, fixed costs can be reduced when you have a downsizing of student
> >enrollment. When MSD reaches 50% of its previous size (around 2008-2009),
> >then there's no reason to maintain the same amount of fixed overhead.
>That's
> >just good business sense. Using your example, if Ford had 50% fewer 
>escorts
>
>
> >purchased in 10 years, they would close a plant or two."
>
>First, I apologize for the bad Escort example, that was poorly written and
>can see how you misunderstood me. However, I don't think it is a good idea
>to extrapolate on information from Three Creek, Arbon, and Pleasant Vally 
>as
>a basis for Moscow school district. This is an entirely separate area with
>different problems and situations then these areas. Furthermore,
>"Extrapolation" is considered a fallacy in almost all mathematical 
>equations
>and prediction unless there is absolutely no interference, or a vacuum,
>since Idaho does not exist in a vacuum (although it feels like it 
>sometimes)
>this would be a fallacy to use. Second, we can't shut down the school
>system. It is mandated that we have a math teacher, science teacher, 
>history
>teacher, english teacher, PE, and Health teacher a school building, nurse,
>playground facilities,cafeteria, and quite a few other things . We have to
>have these. Thus they are called "fixed costs". Fixed costs are the min!
>imum amount we can pay and still meet all the government regulations, state
>and local. After we meet these fixed costs we have more flexibility to
>decide what we need and want after that. If it costs $500,000 for the fixed
>costs and we have 50 children it is going to seem like a great of money is
>being spent on one child. On the other hand, if in another district we have
>to pay $500,000 in fixed costs and only $2000 per extra child and we have
>150 children, guess what? The cost per child is going to seem much much 
>less
>but the quality of education is actually about the same.
>
>The MSD can't shut down anymore Junior High or High Schools, it only has 
>one
>of each. It has shut down elementary schools.
>
> >
> >"Sixth, concerning the rate of inflation. That is what the discussion is
>all
> >about. By saying that education must inflate at a rate of 10% (MSD's has
> >been inflating at 9.1% per year), we are buying into the notion that
>
> >education is its own beast. I'm questioning that very logic.
>
>Well, I am telling you why Dale, the costs of educating a child is more 
>then
>it was in the past.
>
>Here is a list of following reasons:
>
>Computers, software, fire regulations, ADA Regulations, federal and state
>regulations, building codes, safety regulations for playgrounds, food
>regulations, increased number of disabled students, increased number of
>children further behind when entering school, inflation, increased number 
>of
>specialists to handle and make sure these regulations are followed,
>increased number of specialists to deal with new technology problems,
>increased number of specialists to deal with legal issues, increased number
>of specialists to deal with violence, social, and cultural differences,
>increased costs of maintaining, updating, and replacing educational
>technologies, increased costs for new teaching tools such as Tv's, VCR's,
>and overhead projectors, increased costs for construction, increased costs
>for bond levies, increased costs for textbooks, increased costs for 
>teaching
>a wider varity of subjects such as computers, increased costs for medical
>coverage of school district employees, ! and increased costs for insurance,
>and smaller class sizes.
>
>Now unless you want school principles to be able to regulate all these 
>costs
>and social problems that are currently out of their control, there is
>absolutely nothing they can do about it and it is not their fault.
>
> >"* We see that people in the past had significantly better educations"
>
>I disagree, many disabled students were not even allowed to receive an
>education. WOmen were not expected to get as high of an education as men in
>certain fields. They did not have computers to do research or see foreign
>lands or learn about them unless they actually went there. They were taught
>Christopher Columbus found the new world. They were not taught women or
>Black or Native american History. They were taught Latin, which is a dead
>language. They didn't understand quantum physics, or cosmic notions, which
>didn't exist then. They were taught many things that were untrue, and fewer
>then 10% went on to college. Today about 25% of the adult population has
>about 4 years of college.
>
> >"than people today (just look at the SATs/ACTs and the level of writing
>that
> >we're getting from students today verses 30 years ago. Look at the 
>college
> >entrance requirements from 100 years ago verses today. Most professors at
>UI
> >couldn't pass a college entrance exam from 100 years ago!); and they did
>it"
>
>HA HA! SAT and other standardized tests to test student abilities is the
>biggest freaking joke in America! Does the SAT test IQ, NO! Does it test
>creativity, how about dancing, singing, debate, logical thinking skills,
>cooking skills, computer skills, social skills, ability to draw, cultural
>awareness? NO! This test doesn't even cover HALF the brain. Furthermore, 
>the
>test has questions that where the answers are wrong! A 12th grade student 
>in
>California even found one that was wrong. It asked which one of following
>shapes can't be made using only a triangle shape. He cut up a bunch 
>triangle
>shapes and proved that everyone of the shapes list for A) B) C) and D) you
>could make from a triangle. So if we are giving kids tests that are WRONG!
>and HAVE WRONG answers listed as the correct answers, and it doesn't test
>half the brian and has a statistical variance of + or - margin of six
>points, and a significance rating of only .9, what is the point?
>Furthermore, I, like about 90! % of my peers, did not give a damn about
>those tests. They did not effect our grade in the class. In my class here 
>in
>1992 (which you said was the highest ever rated) I didn't even study for 
>it,
>not one minute, I couldn't care less. I didn't even care to read all the
>questions except the government portion of the test, because I loved it. I
>didn't know what those tests meant until my senior year when my councilor
>called me out of class to talk to me about my tests score and stated I
>ranked in the top 1-2% of the nation in the area of Government. I also 
>know,
>that if you did REALLY care about those tests and the "rating of your
>school" you would just cheat on those scantron tests by running a #2 pencil
>over the black square on the on side of each question. The computer will
>count this as a correct answer! Furthermore, did you know that the SAT
>removes all the questions that most of the students get right the next year
>to ensure a normal distribution bell curve. Did you also ! know that some
>students rank in the 1st quartile range of the test one year and the next
>year they rank in the bottom quartile range and another student will rank 
>in
>the 3rd quartile range one year and then the 1st quartile range the next
>year. Funny how about 50%+ of the student population gains and losses half
>there intelligence in just one YEAR! Either that or the test is garbage. 
>The
>only thing Scantron multiple tests are good for is testing ones ability to
>fill in a bubble without going outside the lines. You guess and have a 25%
>chance, jeez, is that stupid or what!
>
>Thanks!
>
>Donovan J. Arnold
>
>
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