[Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state
Thomas Hansen
tomh@uidaho.edu
Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:26:39 -0700
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Do we file this under "self-righteousness" or basic "arrogance"?
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:21 AM
To: vision
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state
Mr. Nielsen,
even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you
wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your rational
mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to appear before
you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His Word and that He has
preserved them throughout history for His Church, you would seek to find
some reason to discredit His appearance. As Scrooge said: You might be
perhaps a bit of bad beef, or a piece of underdone potato. No, there's more
of gravy than the grave about you. Humbug I tell you! Humbug! I completely
doubt that you would accept a voice from heaven saying "this is my son, hear
him". Could you have conquered in the sign of the cross like Constantine
did? With respect, I think you would be one of those dwarves in The Last
Battle who stubbornly refused to believe they had gone through the stable
door into paradise. And so to them paradise was a dank, dark, smelly, muddy,
straw-strewn little shed. And yet all around them was green grass, trees
with perfect fruit, blue skies, pure streams of water, and next to them
stood the King Himself.
It is impossible to have "objective" truth according to man. Science is an
inductive discipline, it is not deductive. It cannot prove anything. Human
logic is based upon our own concepts and ideas. Why should I believe your
logic over mine?
And if the Bible indeed is not worthy of a single drop of blood in its
defense, let alone blood spilled in the offense against the gates of Hell,
what would you defend with your life, Mr. Nielsen? What is important enough
to you to fight for? Daughter? Mother? Friend? House? Church? Nation? Why
are any of those important? Who says they are? By what standard do you
defend anything?
The Bible shouldn't be in the public school because the Bible is truth, and
truth has been denied in most every government school.
have a good day,
Joshua Nieuwsma
Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu> wrote:
> From: Joshua Nieuwsma
> Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific
> To: vision
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State
>
>
> I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism,
> islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of
> God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of the
> public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public
> education were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it,
> kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have
> have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the
> highway than in the government school classroom.
>
> Allow me also! to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an
> integral part of some classes and point out that it is impossible for
> any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one
> anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with
> direct foundation in God's Holy Word.
>
> Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught
> about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that
> have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world,
> without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over
> another?
>
> cheers,
>
> Joshua N.
>
Dear Joshua:
First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc.
are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like them
or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion he! re.
It is a proper noun, not a generic term.
Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, none of
them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around for
centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your
brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what
constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. The
reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by human
beings, usually men.
I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of
dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I
also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you
realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that
none of them is worth a single drop of blood.
Go in peace.
Ralph Nielsen
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<DIV><SPAN class=676122516-25072003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Do we
file this under "self-righteousness" or basic "arrogance"?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=676122516-25072003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=676122516-25072003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Tom</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Joshua Nieuwsma
[mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 25, 2003 9:21
AM<BR><B>To:</B> vision<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in
school. Was Church and state<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Mr. Nielsen,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you
wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your rational
mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to appear before you
and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His Word and that He has
preserved them throughout history for His Church, you would seek to find some
reason to discredit His appearance. As Scrooge said: <EM>You might be perhaps
a bit of bad beef, or a piece of underdone potato. No, there's more of gravy
than the grave about you. Humbug I tell you! Humbug! </EM>I completely doubt
that you would accept a voice from heaven saying "this is my son, hear him".
Could you have conquered in the sign of the cross like Constantine did? With
respect, I think you would be one of those dwarves in <EM>The Last Battle</EM>
who stubbornly refused to believe they had gone through the stable door into
paradise. And so to them paradise was a dank, dark, smelly, muddy,
straw-strewn little shed. And yet all around them was green grass, trees with
perfect fruit, blue skies, pure streams of water, and next to them stood the
King Himself. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is impossible to have "objective" truth according to man. Science is
an inductive discipline, it is not deductive. It cannot <EM>prove</EM>
anything. Human logic is based upon our own concepts and ideas. Why
should I believe your logic over mine? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And if the Bible indeed is not worthy of a single drop of blood in
its defense, let alone blood spilled in the offense against the gates of Hell,
what would you defend with your life, Mr. Nielsen? What is important enough to
you to fight for? Daughter? Mother? Friend? House? Church? Nation? Why
are any of those important? Who says they are? By what standard do you defend
anything? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The Bible shouldn't be in the public school because the Bible is truth,
and truth has been denied in most every government school.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>have a good day,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Joshua Nieuwsma</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><B><I>Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; WIDTH: 100%">>
From: Joshua Nieuwsma <JOSHUAHENDRIK@YAHOO.COM><BR>> Date: Thu Jul 24,
2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific<BR>> To: vision
<VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM><BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and
State<BR>><BR>><BR>> I for one don't want to see a bible class
taught alongside mormonism, <BR>> islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any
other -'isms. Why set the Word of <BR>> God equal with the words of
confused man? Take the Bible out of the <BR>> public schools
completely! It's about time the goals of public <BR>>
education were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it,
<BR>> kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should
have <BR>> have pulled them out a long time ago. It's
safer outside on the <BR>> highway than in the government school
classroom. <BR>> <SNIP> <BR>> Allow me also! to take Mr.
Moffett's statement about religion as an <BR>> integral part of some
classes and point out that it is impossible for <BR>> any class or
"subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one <BR>> anyhow. It's
not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with <BR>> direct
foundation in God's Holy Word.<BR>> <BR>> Mr. Moffett, your
ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught <BR>> about
seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that <BR>>
have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world, <BR>>
without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over
<BR>> another?<BR>> <BR>> cheers,<BR>> <BR>>
Joshua N.<BR>><BR><BR>Dear Joshua:<BR>First of all, a lesson in grammar.
Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. <BR>are proper nouns. They require a
capital letter whether you like them <BR>or not. The same is true of the
Bible, which is under discussion he! re. <BR>It is a proper noun, not a
generic term.<BR>Although many religions claim they have the true Word of
God, none of <BR>them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been
around for <BR>centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked
(your <BR>brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what
<BR>constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. The
<BR>reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by human
<BR>beings, usually men.<BR>I am personally well acquainted with the Bible.
I have a couple of <BR>dozen different translations, languages, and versions
on my shelves. I <BR>also have copies of various other allegedly divine
books. Once you <BR>realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you
soon feel that <BR>none of them is worth a single drop of blood.<BR>Go in
peace.<BR>Ralph Nielsen</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
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