[Vision2020] Heaven and hell in the Bible

[Ralph Nielsen]

From: "Luke" <lukenieuwsma@softhome.net>
Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003  6:45:01 PM US/Pacific
To: "Ralph Nielsen" <nielsen@uidaho.edu>
Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020@moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell?


Dear Visionaries:
     I had thought that it was commonly understood courtesy to keep 
off-list
conversations off-list. Am I mistaken? Is this something acceptable on
Vision2020?

RALPH NIELSEN (July 12)
	This conversation began in a public forum, so I think it is perfectly 
acceptable to continue it in public.

Mr. Nielson, since you decided to turn private into public:
     One reason I am not going to perpetuate an endless debate against 
you is
that you don't want to believe the truths of the Bible. Even if I was 
able
to logically shatter every argument you placed on the board, it would be
futile. You would never give up. You do not truly understand the 
Scriptures
because you refuse to; and you refuse to because you do not wish to
understand them. So in your unhappiness you twist them.

RALPH NIELSEN (July 12)
	Luke Nieuwsma refuses to look at the evidence I presented in support 
of my views. Instead of presenting us with evidence that I am incorrect 
he makes the absurd claim that I "don't want to believe the truths of 
the Bible." Unfortunately, it is Luke who doesn't want to accept the 
evidence of the Bible, so in his unhappiness he twists it to mean what 
he wants it to mean and ignores what it actually says. His circular 
argument above applies to himself, not to me.

	At the end end of April the Pacific Northwest Division of The Society 
of Biblical Literature, the oldest and largest association of biblical 
scholars, held its annual meeting at the University of Idaho. Doug 
Wilson and all of his associates were specially invited to attend but 
not one showed up. We had scholars from Seattle Pacific, Walla Walla 
College, Northwest Nazarene, Albertson, Pacific Lutheran, Seattle 
University, etc., but not a single teacher or student from New Saint 
Andrew's appeared. My readers can draw their own conclusions about 
their intellectual integrity and biblical scholarship.

	I will repeat what I wrote earlier, so Luke cannot misrepresent me. If 
he thinks that the Jewish, Catholic and Protestant scholars I quote 
below "don't want to believe the truths of the Bible" I challenge him 
and his mentors to state their objections in a refereed journal of 
biblical scholarship. But don't hold your breath, folks.

> RALPH NIELSEN
> Poor Luke, a victim of fundamentalist propaganda. I hope he eventually
> grows up and thinks for himself.  He imagines that I am attacking what
> the Bible says. He couldn't be more wrong. I said that there is no life
> after death in the Hebrew religion, i.e., the pre-Exilic religion of
> the Hebrew people as we have it in the Bible. But Luke doesn't believe
> the Bible.
>
> I will have other things to do in the next few days, so I will just
> leave my reading public with a few references to show that I am not
> spouting off some half-baked opinions of my own, as Luke seems to
> suggest, but am presenting biblical facts recognized by established
> scholars, both Jewish and Christian.
>
> "Much later, biblical religion postulated that the ultimate destiny of
> the individual does not end with death. There is not a hint of this
> suggestion in the Torah [the first 5 books of the Bible. RN], however,
> or in most of the Bible. There, human death is final. Whatever ideal
> state an individual Israelite can hope to achieve is restricted to
> one's lifetime and is conditional on heeding God's commands; material
> prosperity, good health, length of days, self-determination, posterity,
> and peace (Deuteronomy 28:1-14). With the possible exception of Elijah
> and Enoch, all biblical personalities die and their death is final."
> (Etz Hayim, Torah and Commentary. The Rabbinical Assembly, The United
> Synagogue of Conservative Judaism. Produced by the Jewish Publication
> Society, c2001). Article on Eschatology, p. 1436.
>
> "Life after death. It is generally held by scholars that no hope of
> individual survival after death is expressed in the Old Testament
> before some of its latest passages, which were probably written in the
> 2d century BC." (The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Raymond
> E. Brown [et al.]. Prentice Hall, c1990).  Article on Eschatology and
> the Afterlife, p. 1313.
>
> "In the preexilic period, there was no notion of a judgment of the
> dead based on their actions during life, nor is there any evidence for
> a belief that the righteous dead go to live in God's presence. The two
> persons in the Hebrew Bible who are taken to heaven to live with God,
> Enoch (Gen. 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:11), do not die. All who die,
> righteous or wicked, go to Sheol (see Gen. 42:38; Num. 16:30-33)." (The
> Oxford Companion to the Bible. Edited by Bruce M. Metzger, Michael D.
> Coogan. Oxford University Press, c1993). Article on Afterlife and
> Immortality, p. 15.
>
> I have no doubt that young Luke Nieuwsma is sincere in his ignorance
> but I have no respect for the shysters and scoundrels, both religious
> and political, who mislead people like him. Our best defense against
> them is a good biblical education.
>
> As a retired librarian, I would recommend the books mentioned above, as
> well as Remedial Christianity; What Every Believer Should Know about
> the Faith, but Probably Doesn't, by Paul Alan Laughlin. Polebridge
> Press, c2000. Your local bookstore will be glad to order them for you.
>
> Ralph Nielsen
>
>