[Vision2020] Heaven and hell?

[Luke]

Dear Visionaries:
    I had thought that it was commonly understood courtesy to keep off-list
conversations off-list. Am I mistaken? Is this something acceptable on
Vision2020?

Mr. Nielson, since you decided to turn private into public:
    One reason I am not going to perpetuate an endless debate against you is
that you don't want to believe the truths of the Bible. Even if I was able
to logically shatter every argument you placed on the board, it would be
futile. You would never give up. You do not truly understand the Scriptures
because you refuse to; and you refuse to because you do not wish to
understand them. So in your unhappiness you twist them.
    I respect your massive amount of knowledge, your studying, and your age.
However, I will not run a race against a creek.
Best wishes,
Luke Nieuwsma

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Nielsen" <nielsen@uidaho.edu>
To: "Luke" <lukenieuwsma@softhome.net>
Cc: <vision2020@moscow.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell?


> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ralph Nielsen" <nielsen@uidaho.edu>
> > To: "Luke" <lukenieuwsma@softhome.net>
> > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:22 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell?
> >
> >
> >> Luke,
> >>
> >> I hope to get back to you tomorrow. You have a lot to learn about the
> >> Bible and its history.
> >>
> >> Ralph
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 1, 2003, at 10:39 PM, Luke wrote:
>
> >     Actually, don't bother. You won't convince me, and I won't
> > convince you.
> > I am sure of my belief in the Bible's authenticity beyond all doubt,
> > and you
> > are steadfastly sure of its errors. I had to post one reply to what you
> > wrote, sir; however, I am not going to perpetuate another endless
> > debate at
> > the moment.
> > Sincerely and respectfully,
> >
> > Luke Nieuwsma
> >
> RALPH NIELSEN
> Poor Luke, a victim of fundamentalist propaganda. I hope he eventually
> grows up and thinks for himself.  He imagines that I am attacking what
> the Bible says. He couldn't be more wrong. I said that there is no life
> after death in the Hebrew religion, i.e., the pre-Exilic religion of
> the Hebrew people as we have it in the Bible. But Luke doesn't believe
> the Bible.
>
> I will have other things to do in the next few days, so I will just
> leave my reading public with a few references to show that I am not
> spouting off some half-baked opinions of my own, as Luke seems to
> suggest, but am presenting biblical facts recognized by established
> scholars, both Jewish and Christian.
>
> "Much later, biblical religion postulated that the ultimate destiny of
> the individual does not end with death. There is not a hint of this
> suggestion in the Torah [the first 5 books of the Bible. RN], however,
> or in most of the Bible. There, human death is final. Whatever ideal
> state an individual Israelite can hope to achieve is restricted to
> one's lifetime and is conditional on heeding God's commands; material
> prosperity, good health, length of days, self-determination, posterity,
> and peace (Deuteronomy 28:1-14). With the possible exception of Elijah
> and Enoch, all biblical personalities die and their death is final."
> (Etz Hayim, Torah and Commentary. The Rabbinical Assembly, The United
> Synagogue of Conservative Judaism. Produced by the Jewish Publication
> Society, c2001). Article on Eschatology, p. 1436.
>
> "Life after death. It is generally held by scholars that no hope of
> individual survival after death is expressed in the Old Testament
> before some of its latest passages, which were probably written in the
> 2d century BC." (The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Raymond
> E. Brown [et al.]. Prentice Hall, c1990).  Article on Eschatology and
> the Afterlife, p. 1313.
>
> "In the preexilic period, there was no notion of a judgment of the
> dead based on their actions during life, nor is there any evidence for
> a belief that the righteous dead go to live in God's presence. The two
> persons in the Hebrew Bible who are taken to heaven to live with God,
> Enoch (Gen. 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:11), do not die. All who die,
> righteous or wicked, go to Sheol (see Gen. 42:38; Num. 16:30-33)." (The
> Oxford Companion to the Bible. Edited by Bruce M. Metzger, Michael D.
> Coogan. Oxford University Press, c1993). Article on Afterlife and
> Immortality, p. 15.
>
> I have no doubt that young Luke Nieuwsma is sincere in his ignorance
> but I have no respect for the shysters and scoundrels, both religious
> and political, who mislead people like him. Our best defense against
> them is a good biblical education.
>
> As a retired librarian, I would recommend the books mentioned above, as
> well as Remedial Christianity; What Every Believer Should Know about
> the Faith, but Probably Doesn't, by Paul Alan Laughlin. Polebridge
> Press, c2000. Your local bookstore will be glad to order them for you.
>
> Ralph Nielsen
>
>
>