From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 00:09:54 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030630152640.03229bc8@mail.wsu.edu> Message-ID: <20030630230954.66941.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1832356531-1057014594=:66854 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have never seen that website. Why do you instantly think the worst in people? Also, the only quote I see there is the one regarding Adolf Hitler, maybe your Google didn't work correctly. You should check before you falsely charge someone. Cheers! John Harrell Melynda Huskey wrote: I hesitate to weigh in, lest anyone think Rose can't manage her own fights (although a moment's reflection reassures me on that point . . .), but I think it's worth noting that the entire article from which John Harrell quotes (without attribution) can be found at http://www.restoringamerica.org/archive/larson/future_of_2nd_amend.html with many more references to wicked people taking over children's minds, but without any references to plagiarism. Melynda Huskey _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1832356531-1057014594=:66854 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I have never seen that website.
 
Why do you instantly think the worst in people?
 
Also, the only quote I see there is the one regarding Adolf Hitler, maybe your Google
didn't work correctly. You should check before you falsely charge someone.
 
Cheers!
John Harrell


Melynda Huskey <melyndah@wsu.edu> wrote:
I hesitate to weigh in, lest anyone think Rose can't manage her own fights
(although a moment's reflection reassures me on that point . . .), but I
think it's worth noting that the entire article from which John Harrell
quotes (without attribution) can be found at

http://www.restoringamerica.org/archive/larson/future_of_2nd_amend.html

with many more references to wicked people taking over children's minds,
but without any references to plagiarism.

Melynda Huskey

_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1832356531-1057014594=:66854-- From lmelina@moscow.com Tue Jul 1 00:19:38 2003 From: lmelina@moscow.com (Lois Melina) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:19:38 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] re: fireworks Message-ID: <004501c33f5e$14909040$94f2f5c7@0016338634> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C33F23.674FE3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since someone brought up the topic of fireworks, I want to let everyone = know that The Hot Flashes will be performing at the Pullman Community = Fireworks Celebration.=20 Yes, the flash and dazzle will start before dark.=20 And those of you who have seen us know that we don't intend to be = upstaged by any ol' fireworks. Jewelry selection is currently underway. What this means is that any of you who were wondering, "Should I wear my = tiara to the fireworks?" now know that it is not only OK to do so, but = very nearly required.=20 Lois Melina ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C33F23.674FE3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Since someone brought up the topic of fireworks, I = want to let=20 everyone know that The Hot Flashes will be performing at the Pullman=20 Community Fireworks Celebration.
 
Yes, the flash and dazzle will start before = dark.=20
 
And those of you who have seen us know = that we don't=20 intend to be upstaged by any ol' fireworks. Jewelry selection is = currently=20 underway.
 
What this means is that any of you who were = wondering, "Should=20 I wear my tiara to the fireworks?" now know that it is not only OK to do = so, but=20 very nearly required.
 
 
Lois Melina
------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C33F23.674FE3C0-- From melyndah@wsu.edu Tue Jul 1 00:25:09 2003 From: melyndah@wsu.edu (Melynda Huskey) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:25:09 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism In-Reply-To: <20030630230954.66941.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030630152640.03229bc8@mail.wsu.edu> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030630161330.03257df8@mail.wsu.edu> At 04:09 PM 6/30/2003 -0700, John Harrell wrote: >I have never seen that website. He also wondered plaintively why I always rush to believe the worst of people. Well, it's all those years of teaching college composition, where I regularly had conversations just like this one. This is one for the National Enquirer, John. You've never seen the site, and yet you quote it with extraordinary exactitude: "The Future of the Second Amendment " By Joseph R. Larson Chairman, restoringamerica.org "Norman Thomas, Socialist and member of the Civil Liberties Union, boldly told the world, "The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."------ The story of how the Socialists took over the American educational establishment would fill a book; a story for another day. [. . .] "Our enemies agree fully. It was Adolph Hitler who said, "Let me control the textbooks, and I will control the state." " "Give me your four year olds," said Lenin "and in a generation I will build a Socialist state." "Lesbian author Patricia Warren, boldly told the gay and lesbian community, "It is the FIRST fact of civilization that-- whoever captures the kids - owns the future." "In his book *The Science Of Power*, Benjamin Kidd wrote, ". Give us the young. -- Give us the young and We will create a new mind and a new Earth in a SINGLE generation." "Ross L. Finny, a socialist PhD in one of his books tells us this; "Everything depends on passing out the expert opinions of the social scientists to the masses of the people; the schools are the only adequate agency for this function." "Lastly, the American Humanist Association understands the importance of capturing the children for they have written: "In order to capture this nation, one has to totally remove moral and spiritual values and absolutes from the thinking of the child. The child has to think that there is no standard of right and wrong, that truth is relative, and that diversity is the only absolute to be gained." That URL, for those who missed it the first time around, is http://www.restoringamerica.org/archive/larson/future_of_2nd_amend.html That big fat meany, Melynda Huskey From sdredge@yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 00:31:04 2003 From: sdredge@yahoo.com (Scott Dredge) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism In-Reply-To: <20030630230954.66941.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030630233104.76186.qmail@web10505.mail.yahoo.com> Give it up John! Every quote you offered up is on that site verbatim. Although I do agree with you on one point, people are easily influenced by rhetoric. You proved that one by your own postings. -SD --- John Harrell wrote: > I have never seen that website. > > Why do you instantly think the worst in people? > > Also, the only quote I see there is the one > regarding Adolf Hitler, maybe your Google > didn't work correctly. You should check before you > falsely charge someone. > > Cheers! > John Harrell > > > Melynda Huskey wrote: > I hesitate to weigh in, lest anyone think Rose can't > manage her own fights > (although a moment's reflection reassures me on that > point . . .), but I > think it's worth noting that the entire article from > which John Harrell > quotes (without attribution) can be found at > > http://www.restoringamerica.org/archive/larson/future_of_2nd_amend.html > > with many more references to wicked people taking > over children's minds, > but without any references to plagiarism. > > Melynda Huskey > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jul 1 00:57:13 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:57:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Republican Jokes (Clean) Message-ID: Greetings Visionaires - Just thought that I might inject a little huor at this time. I think we can use a bit of it now, huh? Thses are Republican jokes. For those of you that believe that turnabout is fair play, feel freee to post some Semocratic jokes. I think we can all grasp the concept of humor without . . . "The number two Republican in the Senate, Mitch McConnell underwent heart surgery last week. He's doing fine. Nothing was actually wrong with his heart, it's just that whenever a Republican is elected to a leadership position, they have to have their heart bypassed." —Jay Leno "Here's good news I guess, New York City will host the 2004 Republican convention. We lured the Republicans here the old fashioned way, with bribe money and hookers. ... The Republicans are getting ready. They want everything to go perfectly. In fact, they are already auditioning people to be black Republicans." —David Letterman "So now the U.S. senate is going to be led by the cat world's answer to Dr. Mengele!" —Columnist Alexander Cockburn, on reports that Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist used to adopt cats from animal shelters and kill them during experiments "It looks like the guy likely to replace Lott is Tennessee Senator Bill Frist, who was a heart transplant surgeon before he came to the Senate. Being a heart surgeon, he knew exactly where to plunge the dagger." —Jay Leno "Trent Lott has found himself in a lot of trouble over his comments (about segregation)...Keep in mind Lott only says this kind of stuff once every 22 years. We like to think of him as the Halley's Comet of bigotry." —Jon Stewart "The government has now cancelled all pay raises for all federal employees. So let's see, President Bush's party has taken control of Congress, last week they gave themselves a pay raise, and cancelled pay raises for all other employees. I think that's called the 'Republican Trifecta.'" —Jay Leno "President Bush's press secretary Ari Fleischer just got married and, believe it or not, one of the wedding presents he was registered for was a DVD of 'Forrest Gump.' He wanted to watch 'Forrest Gump.' You'd think he'd get enough of that at work." —Jay Leno "As you know the Republicans now control everything in Washington — the House, the Senate, Supreme Court, the White House. Well the bad news, they got no excuse. You screw up this one, it's your fault." —Jay Leno "I've been in politics for over 20 years, and for over 20 years, I've had Barbara Streisand trying to do my job. And so I decided to try my hand at her job." —Sen. John McCain, in a Saturday Night Live sketch in which he sang ballads from his new album "McCain Sings Streisand" "Senator Strom Thurmond is retiring. He turns 100 years old in December – or as Anna Nicole Smith calls him – "the bachelor." —Jay Leno "The Justice Department announced plans this week for a new color- coded alert system with green for the most relaxed and red as the most serious warning. ....Strom Thurmond was visibly enthused about the plan, saying, 'A colored alert system? I've been waiting for one of them for years.'" —Tina Fey on Saturday Night Live's "Weekend Update" "Congressman Bob Barr was at a rally last night when someone gave him a .38 caliber gun as a gift. Well, the gun went off. You know, the politicians hit the floor. The Republicans thought maybe it was an angry voter, someone with money in the stock market. And the Democrats thought maybe it was an angry husband. So, between the two of them, they didn't know where to go." —Jay Leno "As you know, a judge here in California has ruled that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional. A reporter asked Attorney General John Ashcroft how he felt about the ruling, but Ashcroft said he couldn't answer, because, you know, he hasn't read the Constitution yet." —Jay Leno "Today is the anniversary of the Watergate break-in. That's the day the Republicans tried to steal the Democrat's plans. That's also the last time the Democrats had any plans worth stealing. It's also the last time a Republican president had a plan and actually carried it out." —Jay Leno "Attorney General John Ashcroft is going to cover up another nude statue in the Justice Department. Remember last time, he spent $8,000 to cover up a statue with a curtain. This time it will be a little cheaper because they're just going to cover it with hundreds of unread FBI memos." —Jay Leno "Even Mayor Bloomberg takes part in summertime activities. How many of you knew Mayor Bloomberg plays golf? So anyway today he goes out and plays golf, but you got to give him credit, it is hard to sink a difficult put, you know when you are wrecked on weed." —David Letterman "Have you been hearing about all the new security alerts for New York City? Nothing to worry about. Mayor Mike Bloomberg said everything is safe, absolutely nothing to worry about. And he said this from his house in the Bahamas." —David Letterman "Speaking at the National Press Club, former Vice President Dan Quayle said that if you take out the profanity, the TV show The Osbournes is a show about good family values. If you take out the profanity, The Osbournes is about thirty seconds long...Quayle also said that when teenagers see Ozzy Osbourne, it sends them the right message about drugs. Think about it, Dan Quayle never did drugs, he's middle-aged and unemployed. Ozzy did drugs for thirty years, lives in a $10 million dollar house, has his own TV show and a $3 million dollar book deal. What's the message?" —Jay Leno "NBC announced this week that they will be producing a three-hour TV movie based on the life of Rudy Giuliani. To keep the movie true to life, the Giuliani character is really unlikable until the last fifteen minutes when everyone loves him." —Tina Fey on Saturday Night Live's "Weekend Update" "White House spokesperson Ari Fleischer ... announced he's getting married. He said he was going to promise to love, honor and cherish his new bride, but he told her he doesn't want to be quoted by name, just refer to him as a senior White House official." —Jay Leno "With new data, scientists have determined that the universe is 13 billion years old. After hearing this, Strom Thurmond said, 'It kills me that I missed the first half.'" —Conan O'Brien "Today is Earth Day, or, as the Bush administration calls it, Monday. ... I thought this was a nice touch. To celebrate Earth Day here, Mayor Bloomberg went out and planted some weed." —David Letterman "Today President Bush said he wants a ban on cloning. Meanwhile, Attorney General Ashcroft said he wants a ban on making humans the old-fashioned way." —Conan O'Brien "Big controversy at the University of Northern Colorado. It seems that an intramural basketball team made up of mostly Native Americans ... decided to protest all the mascots that offend them by naming their team 'The Fighting Whities.' ... Isn't that the name of the Republican Party?" —Jay Leno "Elizabeth Dole is considering a run for the Senate. When asked about it, Mrs. Dole said, 'Anything to get away from my husband and his little blue pills'" —Conan O'Brien "Bob Dole is going to be appearing in a Pepsi commercial with Britney Spears. Yeah, apparently Dole says that if this doesn't cure his erectile dysfunction, nothing will." —Conan O'Brien "Senator Jim Jeffords made huge news when he switched political parties. Everyone was talking about it. Then it was pointed out that Strom Thurmond once switched parties. Apparently, years ago, Strom switched from the hunters to the gatherers." —Conan O'Brien "I guess today Senator James Jeffords from Vermont left the Republican party, became an independent. Yeah, he said he did it to follow his conscience and his principles. See, that's why he became independent, if you have a conscience and principles, you can't be a Republican or a Democrat." —Jay Leno "The big rumor in Washington is that Senator James Jeffords of Vermont may switch parties, giving Democrats control of the Senate. That's the big rumor. See, that would still leave the House controlled by the Republicans, and of course the White House controlled by the oil companies. So you'd still have that balance." —Jay Leno "The shift in power in the Senate means that Trent Lott will become the minority leader. Funny, you rarely hear a sentence with the words Trent Lott and minority that doesn't also include the words 'no appeal to' and 'hates'." —Daily Show host Jon Stewart "Governor Jeb Bush of Florida announced he was running for re-election. Not only did he announce he was running for re-election, he also announced what his final vote count would be." —Jay Leno "There have been rumors swirling around Florida that Florida Gov. Jeb Bush had been cheating on his wife. But he says no, that's not true, technically he wasn't cheating, they only had dimpled sex. That's when it doesn't go all the way." —Jay Leno "Actually, he especially denied having an affair with Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris. I believe him, I don't think he did. An affair with Katherine Harris? How much makeup would that leave on your collar? ... He said as a Republican, the only people he's been in bed with are the tobacco industry and the gun lobby." —Jay Leno "Actually they said they don't really know how many women (Jeb Bush) has been with because since it is Florida, they're still counting. ... Boy talk about switches. During the last administration the president was accused of infidelity and his brother was an idiot. Now it is the other way around." —Jay Leno "Jeb Bush went on TV the other day to deny rumors that he had a sexual relationship with a former Playboy Playmate. Oh! As a guy, that's got to kill you doesn't it? Having to deny to your friends that you had sex with a Playmate, even if you did." —Jay Leno "In Washington last week, officials from the National Rifle Association met with a group of two hundred high school students. There were no survivors." —Tina Fey, on Saturday Night Live's "Weekend Update" "Florida Secretary of State Katherine "Cruella DeVil" Harris is now running for Congress. She is running for Congress but she is now being investigated for budgeting three and half million dollars for overseas travel. It seems she went to Argentina, Panama, Brazil, Venezuela, Barbados, and Mexico all on tax payers' money. She said it was part of a program to see how third world countries fix their elections." —Jay Leno "You remember Katherine Harris, Florida's Secretary of State. Now she is running for Congress. Just what we need, another crooked Florida election. She already believes that the confused and disoriented voters will put her over the top. She is very confident, she predicts she will win the election by 742 votes." —David Letterman "New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani is once again expressing outrage at an art exhibit, this time at a painting in which Jesus is depicted as a naked woman. Said the mayor, 'This trash is not the sort of thing that I want to look at when I go to the museum with my mistress.'" —Tina Fey, on Saturday Night Live's "Weekend Update"" From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 01:49:29 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:49:29 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID:

Dale,

"I've been contacted off-list by many who have ignored your rants and embraced my stats."

First Dale, so have I. And not only by email, but in person. Many of which have PhD's.

Second, I am certainly sure that people are tired of my rants of asking you the same question 57 times and you refusing to answer. I am getting tired of it too. In case you haven't noticed, the majority believe in spending huge amounts of money on MSD, they not only support it, but they vote for it time and time again. If your argument was so strong, then why do people in the community keep on passing levies to spend MORE on education? So, I think when it comes down to popular support of increasing spending on education, and cutting it, as you suggest, you lose if people caring enough to vote and pass levies by a supermajority counts as a measuring stick.

Third, I don't disagree one iota with your statistics, as does anyone else. It is your inability to come up with a plan and the meaning of your statistics that everyone disagrees with.

Statistics don't provide a plan. They don't  solve anything. Statistics are simply numerical descriptions of something.

I can provide statistics all day long on murder. However, that does not cause or prevent murder does it? Well, either does providing statistics on MSD solve any problems they "may" or "may not" have.

Once again, you are obviously not understanding that the argument is: "You believe that the MSD can provide the same services for children for less money". "I believe that they can't".

You have provided statistical information that they spend $8-9K a student. You have not provided how they can spend only $8k or less a student and provide the same services.

You must provide that evidence in order to win the argument you make to the educated members of the community.

I have no doubt that you can stir the emotions of people that hate taxes and tired of paying them under another "Bush Economy". But emotional claims to hating taxes does not solve the problem facing the residents of Moscow, providing the same quality of education to the children of Moscow. I happen to think everything is too expensive, housing, food, medical care, a ticket to the movies, and cars. Big deal, providing "stats" on the rising costs does reduce the costs of the movie, food, housing, or medical care without cutting the quality of movie, car, medical care, or housing. It is common sense, and you need to provide evidence to your claims. "Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence"

Thanks for not being able to answer the ONE question that would prove your case.

Donovan J Arnold

>From: "Dale Courtney"
>To:
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
>Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:34:16 -0700
>
>Donovan,
>
>Au contraire. I've been contacted off-list by many who have ignored your rants and embraced my stats.
>
>As I said, I'm not going to waste my time with you laying out a detailed plan when you don't even accept that there's anything wrong with the status quo. When you are ready to admit the problem, then I'll give you the solution.
>
>All you have proven is that you are adept in using the fonts feature in your email client. But, alas, more form over function.
>
>Have a great day!
>
>Best,
>Dale Courtney
>Moscow, Idaho
> Gee, Dale, you wrote over 25 postings whining about this issue and haven't convinced a soul. Yet, now writing one email with a NAME of the school and BUDGET of the School that provides the same services to students and educators as MSD is wasting breath? I am asking for one word and a number, not 25 postings. Hardly wasting breath.
> Thanks!
>
> Donovan J Arnold
>
> Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"
>
> Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"
>
> Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"
>
> Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"
>
> Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"
>
> Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"
>
> Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"
>
> Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"
>
> Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"
>
> Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jul 1 02:09:12 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:09:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Question, Mr. Courtney - How old are you? (This shouldn't require any research) You claim to have been a teacher for 17 years. Yet, you will not answer the simple question, "Where did you teach?" You claim to have worked in the Silicon Valley in California for seven years. Again, you do not answer another simple question, "Where in the Silicon Valley?" You claim to be a retired military officer. Simple math: 17 years (teaching) 7 years (working in the Silicon Valley) 24 years (bare minimum to have retired from the service as an officer, allowing for the minimum of 4 years to get your degree so that you can enter the service as an officer) Total: 48 years Believeing that you entered college immediately after high school, entered the service immediately after graduation, went to work in the Silicon Valley immediately after retirement, commenced your career in teaching immediately upon completion of seven years in Silicon Valley, and completed 17 years in the teaching profession this morning, this makes you at least 66 years old. Hmmmm. I wonder? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From timlohr@yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 02:34:13 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Immigration--Idaho Impact Message-ID: <20030701013413.64039.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, I went to the link(www.fairus.org/states.htm) below and checked the Idaho impact. Some interesting material about the school funding issues for sure. Also, I've never understood why immigration is almost never analyzed as the environmental issue that it is. Going through some of the states on this study is a real eye-opener about the connection. TL Click on the link to find out how your state is impacted! How is Immigration Impacting Your Community? FAIR Releases New Immigration Impact Analyses Now available from FAIR: new factsheets examining the real-life impact of mass immigration policies in each of the 50 states. We combed through data on poverty, housing, smog, water, schools, land density, labor, traffic, farmland, and health care and other services, to paint a comprehensive picture of immigration’s impact in local communities. The results may surprise you. Even states not traditionally thought of as impacted by immigration are now feeling the strain. For instance, New Hampshire is seeing open space disappear and farmland being eaten up, and growth-related problems like traffic and school overcrowding are beginning to emerge. In Kansas, where the immigrant population more than doubled during the 1990s, experts say that if growth continues its current pace, Kansas City, Topeka, and Wichita will sprawl together into one giant megalopolis. And in Minnesota, hospitals are struggling to pay for the basic health care of the swelling immigrant population, many of whom lack health insurance. You can view the impact statement for your state by going to: http://www.fairus.org/html/states.htm. (If you'd like bulk copies to distribute in your community, we can send you a PDF for high-quality printing.) Please forward this message to interested friends, acquaintances, and email lists. For current immigration news, please visit the SteinReport. You can visit our website at FAIR or go to the Legislative Action Center to find your representatives and local media contact information. For other information, call FAIR's legislative department at (202) 328-7004. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Tue Jul 1 03:00:06 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:00:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <058301c33f74$9dc0a470$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Mr Hansen: > Wrong, Mr. Nieuwsma. Diversity is what holds this country together. This > nation's origin is founded in its diversity znd willingness to accept and > foster different faiths. Actually, consider the lives and writings of the Founders. They were overwhelmingly Christian, particularly George Washington, our first president under the Constitution (but not the first of the United States, of course). > I assume that we probably will not hear from you for the next couple weeks > as you more than likely wil be at the National Aryan Nations Convention in > Coeur d'Alene, huh? Of course, of course. > George W. Bush Jr. - Republican president/Republican House of > Representaives/Republican Senate. You are wrong there. The first half of his presidency thus far was actually against an opposing party of Congress as the majority of the Senate fighting his every move. The second half so far has a hefty Democrat effort to keep his judicial nominees out, as well as constant negative press coverage. And then there was continuous Demo opposition to the war in Iraq. That would certainly count as, to put it mildly, opposition. > You are kinda right, Mr. Nieuwsma. It took President Clinton eight years to > get this nation out of a 3-trillion dollar deficit, resulting with almost a > trillion dollar surplus. It took President Bush only two and a half years > to get us back into a 600-billion d[o]llar deficit, leaving a whole lot of > children behind. Oh, you're just jealous of Reagan's economy boosts. Clinton doesn't deserve any credit for someone else's work. All the best, Luke Nieuwsma From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Tue Jul 1 03:00:16 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:00:16 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell? References: Message-ID: <058801c33f74$c3eb2670$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Hello, Mr. Nielsen, Thanks for your reply, but I find myself in considerable disagreement with you. > have been done in the name of a god. He also seems to imply that it is > the threat of postmortem punishment by a god that makes people behave > morally. This is flatly contradicted by the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament > to Christians). The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction - Prov 1:7 The Hebrew word for "fear" there is yir'ah, a moral/reverent fear, since you don't seem to trust modern translations. > In the Hebrew religion there is no such thing as a separate soul and > there is no life after death. In the entire Old Testament not one > single person dies and goes to heaven. I believe you are incorrect. Consider Psalm 17:15 - "As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied when I awake in your likeness." And no one dies and goes to hell > either (except in dishonest translations like the King James Version). Take a look at Prov 1:12 "12 Let us swallow them alive like Sheol, and whole, like those who go down to the Pit." Sheol, or she'owl is the Hebrew word for hell. How about Isaiah 14:15? Or Ezekiel 32:24? The latter in particular draws a contrast between hell and the land of the living. There are hundreds more quotations I could refer to. I know you have a good deal of bible knowledge, but if you think that the OT does not include heaven and hell, you must have missed some things. > I'm afraid Luke Nieuwsma is mistaken to think that most people act > morally only by a bribe of heaven or a threat of hell. It is not a bribe, it is a gift if you turn from immorality to Christ. But hell is not a threat, it is our just deserts. Best, Luke Nieuwsma From Brnieuwsma@softhome.net Tue Jul 1 03:55:45 2003 From: Brnieuwsma@softhome.net (Benjamin Nieuwsma) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:55:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fireworks of diversity Message-ID: <004101c33f7c$5dc87a20$1f00a8c0@benjamin> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C33F41.97E75450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh yeah BABY! That would be totally cool and... diverse to boot. I mean, think about it, instead of spending all our money on the old run-of-the-mill-stuff, we could diversify our spenditures and broaden = our scope of experiences. Besides, it would be for the common benefit of = all, with everyone working on it (or paying for it) together, whites, = african Americans, Native Americans... See ya! Benjamin > The question of how to fund the fireworks is blazingly obvious. = Instate a > levy requiring every Moscow citizen to pay $100 in taxes each year to = the > Moscow Fireworks Fund. I'm not exactly sure of the latest Moscow population > numbers, but the sign says 21,000 or so. Multiply that by $100 and = you have > $2,100,000 for one grand fireworks display. Holy smokes!! We could = have > one awesome fireworks display every single year! > > Individually, we could do our own put-put displays, but pass a = law--and > POW!! We wouldn't just have fireworks for the consenting adults, we > wouldn't just have fireworks for the fat bald Republicans, we wouldn't just > have fireworks for the disabled, we wouldn't just have fireworks for = the > financially-privileged--we would have fireworks for ALL!! > > I apologize--I couldn't resist. > > Not meaning to cause any sparks. All the best, > > John Moss > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill London" > To: "Mitch Parks" > Cc: > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 12:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] fireworks? > > > > I contacted the Chamber to find out for sure, and the answer is > > Yes..Moscow fireworks on July 4. at UI Kibbie Dome lot > > Equally interesting is the question of how the fireworks are funded. > > They cost $10,000. > > For the last 2 years the city used some of its "free" money from the > > Hamilton estate for fireworks and will use that source again this = year. > > But perhaps the city got a little worried about its use of the = Hamilton > > money, because the administrators said this was the last year they = would > > dip into the Hamilton account for fireworks. > > No really, they promised. > > Now, the Chamber is trying to decide if it is a good idea to keep = the > > fireworks thing going next year. If you care about this issue, you > > should contact the Chamber 882-1800 > > BL > > > > Mitch Parks wrote: > > > > > I've been gone for a couple of weeks and may have missed this in = the > > > mire... > > > > > > Are there "grand" Moscow Fireworks this year? Where and when? > > > > > > Mitch Parks > > > Moscow, ID > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF > > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C33F41.97E75450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oh yeah BABY! That would be totally cool and... diverse to boot. I=20 mean,
think about it, instead of spending all our money on the=20 old
run-of-the-mill-stuff, we could diversify our spenditures and = broaden=20 our
scope of experiences. Besides, it would be for the common benefit = of all,=20 with everyone working on it (or paying for it) together, = whites,=20 african Americans, Native Americans...
See ya!
 
Benjamin


> The question of how to fund the fireworks is blazingly = obvious.  Instate a
> levy requiring every Moscow citizen to = pay $100=20 in taxes each year to the
> Moscow Fireworks Fund.  I'm not = exactly=20 sure of the latest Moscow
population
> numbers, but the sign = says=20 21,000 or so.  Multiply that by $100 and you
have
> = $2,100,000 for=20 one grand fireworks display.  Holy smokes!!  We could = have
> one=20 awesome fireworks display every single year!
>
> = Individually, we=20 could do our own put-put displays, but pass a law--and
> = POW!!  We=20 wouldn't just have fireworks for the consenting adults, we
> = wouldn't just=20 have fireworks for the fat bald Republicans, we wouldn't
just
> = have=20 fireworks for the disabled, we wouldn't just have fireworks for = the
>=20 financially-privileged--we would have fireworks for = ALL!!
>
> I=20 apologize--I couldn't resist.
>
> Not meaning to cause any = sparks.=20 All the best,
>
> John Moss
>
> ----- Original = Message=20 -----
> From: "Bill London" <london@moscow.com>
> To: = "Mitch=20 Parks" <mitch@mochaoflove.org>
&g= t; Cc:=20 <vision2020@moscow.com>
&g= t;=20 Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 12:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]=20 fireworks?
>
>
> > I contacted the Chamber to find = out for=20 sure, and the answer is
> > Yes..Moscow fireworks on July = 4.  at=20 UI Kibbie Dome lot
> > Equally interesting is the question of = how the=20 fireworks are funded.
> > They cost $10,000.
> > For = the last=20 2 years the city used some of its "free" money from the
> > = Hamilton=20 estate for fireworks and will use that source again this year.
> = > But=20 perhaps the city got a little worried about its use of the = Hamilton
> >=20 money, because the administrators said this was the last year they = would
>=20 > dip into the Hamilton account for fireworks.
> > No = really, they=20 promised.
> > Now, the Chamber is trying to decide if it is a = good idea=20 to keep the
> > fireworks thing going next year.  If you = care=20 about this issue, you
> > should contact the Chamber = 882-1800
>=20 > BL
> >
> > Mitch Parks wrote:
> = >
> >=20 > I've been gone for a couple of weeks and may have missed this in=20 the
> > > mire...
> > >
> > > Are = there=20 "grand" Moscow Fireworks this year? Where and when?
> > = >
>=20 > > Mitch Parks
> > > Moscow, ID
> > = >
>=20 > > _____________________________________________________
> = >=20 >  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> = >=20 >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> = >=20 >           &nb= sp;   =20 http://www.fsr.net
> >=20 >           mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com>=20 > > = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF
>=20 >
> > = _____________________________________________________
>=20 >  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>=20 >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>=20 >           &nb= sp;   =20 http://www.fsr.net
>=20 >           mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com>=20 > = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF
>=20 >
>
>=20 _____________________________________________________
>  List = services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving = the=20 communities of the Palouse since=20 1994.
>          =      =20 http://www.fsr.net
>  &nb= sp;       =20 mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com>=20 =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF
------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C33F41.97E75450-- From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 05:07:41 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism In-Reply-To: <20030630233104.76186.qmail@web10505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030701040741.50733.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> LOL Still thinking the worst in everyone, are we? I pulled the quotes off of another bulletin board. I guess I dont google as good as Melynda to see if there exists a website from where they may have come from. And so what anyway. If I had found that website, I would given the link, because I really don't care who first compiled them. So actually Melynda did me a service. Since Melynda is the google expert, lets appoint her the "google search meister." This way, we can rely on her to find all the appropriate references and footnotes, just like an editor. Cool! We found a new job for you google search meister Melynda. Cheers! John Harrell --- Scott Dredge wrote: > Give it up John! Every quote you offered up is on > that site verbatim. Although I do agree with you on > one point, people are easily influenced by rhetoric. > You proved that one by your own postings. > > -SD > > --- John Harrell wrote: > > I have never seen that website. > > > > Why do you instantly think the worst in people? > > > > Also, the only quote I see there is the one > > regarding Adolf Hitler, maybe your Google > > didn't work correctly. You should check before you > > falsely charge someone. > > > > Cheers! > > John Harrell > > > > > > Melynda Huskey wrote: > > I hesitate to weigh in, lest anyone think Rose can't > > manage her own fights > > (although a moment's reflection reassures me on that > > point . . .), but I > > think it's worth noting that the entire article from > > which John Harrell > > quotes (without attribution) can be found at > > > > > http://www.restoringamerica.org/archive/larson/future_of_2nd_amend.html > > > > with many more references to wicked people taking > > over children's minds, > > but without any references to plagiarism. > > > > Melynda Huskey > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From rhayes@turbonet.com Tue Jul 1 05:18:47 2003 From: rhayes@turbonet.com (roger hayes) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:18:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Chipman Trail Maintenance In-Reply-To: <20030630190002.4768.87544.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <1C3A43CE-AB7B-11D7-B7A9-0003937F0DBA@turbonet.com> Ben: I understand that in the next few days the Chipman trail may undergo an extensive spraying. This may take care of some problems, and possibly create others. As an aside, I find the intersection at the Vet clinic very dangerous in part due to high grass . However, vehicles do come off the highway there at fairly high speeds, and the bicyclists, skaters, and pedestrians don't have enough time to react. Knocking down, spraying the grass will not solve all the problems. On the plus side, the truck drivers entering and exiting the quarries tend to blow their horns before crossing the trail. From one who used to bicycle commute the highway, I can only say my safety, enjoyment has increased a million-fold since the path was built. What a wonderful addition to both our communities! Sincerely, Roger Hayes Moscow On Monday, June 30, 2003, at 12:00 PM, vision2020-request@moscow.com wrote: > > Chipman Trail maintenance--from Moscow to state line is Moscow city > parks, in Pullman city is that city park dept, and Whitman County Parks > handles the rest > BL > > Ben Twigg wrote: From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 05:32:06 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:32:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID:

Ted,

You wrote: "Donovan to admit there may be a waste of certain funds in MSD does not really disprove his argument."

I am sure if you look back at my previous posts you will not only see where I have admitted this, you will find examples. I have no difficulty admitting that ANY institution is NOT 100% efficient.

Nonetheless, Dale is asking me to admit that MSD is wasting money more then a private institution would be while still providing the same opportunities. I do not accept his notion without proof.

So lets pretend that I say, "Oh yes, MSD is wasting money right and left and something needs to be done about it."

Dale could reply, "See, even you admit that I am right, you just admitted they waste money, a private school would get rid of this waste".

Thereby negating the entire need of proof that MSD is wasting money. Then we go round and round again without a single drop of evidence being provided that a private institution would offer the same opportunities as a public school for all children.

If Dale shows, the community that indeed there is a Private school that does more effectively run then a public school that still provides the same opportunities for a student for less money, Then I will admit I am wrong, and that it can be done, and that MSD is in fact wasteful, join Dale in getting MSD to adopt this "private schools" model. All I ask is the name of one private school, that is it, if he knows one, why not say it and convince me and everyone else. What logic is there in hiding this information from all of us? Really makes no sense at all.

But Dale can't provide the name of a private school that does, because one doesn't exist. Rather then admitting this, he simply asks questions in response to hide that he hasn't done any research to find out that Private schools don't provide same services for less money.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold  

>From: "Ted Moffett"

>To: donovanarnold@hotmail.com, dale@courtneys.us
>CC: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
>Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:49:27 +0000
>
>
>All:
>
>Donovan's questions that Dale does not want to answer seem relevant
>to illuminating this debate over public vs private schools. So
>Dale, why not provide at least some provisional concise answers?
>
>On the other hand, for Donovan to admit there may be a waste of
>certain funds in MSD does not really disprove his argument. There
>may be many schools, both private and public, where money is not
>spent wisely. This does not negate the need for the schools or the
>services and education they provide, nor does it disprove according
>to some grand political or ethical or spiritual theory that public
>tax supported schools are inherently wrong.
>
>Both of you are exhibiting entrenched polarized stubbornness which
>lessens the credibility of the arguments both of you are making.
>
>Ted
>
>
>
>
>>From: "Donovan Arnold"
>>To: dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
>>Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:06:06 -0700
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
><< message3.txt >>

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 06:00:46 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 05:00:46 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID: Donovan et. al. If you have already agreed that MSD can be more efficient and lower costs, this admission does not automatically lead to the conclusion you say Dale will assume it does, namely that a private school is the answer to solve the alleged inefficiencies at MSD. It could mean MSD needs internal reforms of one sort or another, or it could mean more volunteers in the school from the community or getting parents more involved in their child's education could lower costs, etc. but all this might be done without involving a private school or schools. But for you to look at Dale's statistics and say, yes, maybe there is a problem with the costs at MSD, now Dale please tell me what you would cut from the MSD budget to solve this problem without eliminating programs and services etc. or give me an example of a private school that provides all the programs and services etc. at MSD for less money, is a simple sort of conversation two people who are interested in the truth, rather than proving their entrenched positions, might have. It did not seem that either of you were having this sort of reasonable give and take in your discussion, but the flame war has been entertaining! Ted >From: "Donovan Arnold" >To: ted_moffett@hotmail.com, dale@courtneys.us >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply >Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:32:06 -0700 > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 06:09:08 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] fireworks? In-Reply-To: <000c01c33f49$53e75d60$0f188dcf@moonfish> Message-ID: <20030701050908.32856.qmail@web13405.mail.yahoo.com> What a cool "free service". Leave it up to a democrat to come up with a new levy for a new "free service." Cheers! John Harrell --- John Moss wrote: > The question of how to fund the fireworks is blazingly obvious. Instate a > levy requiring every Moscow citizen to pay $100 in taxes each year to the > Moscow Fireworks Fund. I'm not exactly sure of the latest Moscow population > numbers, but the sign says 21,000 or so. Multiply that by $100 and you have > $2,100,000 for one grand fireworks display. Holy smokes!! We could have > one awesome fireworks display every single year! > > Individually, we could do our own put-put displays, but pass a law--and > POW!! We wouldn't just have fireworks for the consenting adults, we > wouldn't just have fireworks for the fat bald Republicans, we wouldn't just > have fireworks for the disabled, we wouldn't just have fireworks for the > financially-privileged--we would have fireworks for ALL!! > > I apologize--I couldn't resist. > > Not meaning to cause any sparks. All the best, > > John Moss > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill London" > To: "Mitch Parks" > Cc: > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 12:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] fireworks? > > > > I contacted the Chamber to find out for sure, and the answer is > > Yes..Moscow fireworks on July 4. at UI Kibbie Dome lot > > Equally interesting is the question of how the fireworks are funded. > > They cost $10,000. > > For the last 2 years the city used some of its "free" money from the > > Hamilton estate for fireworks and will use that source again this year. > > But perhaps the city got a little worried about its use of the Hamilton > > money, because the administrators said this was the last year they would > > dip into the Hamilton account for fireworks. > > No really, they promised. > > Now, the Chamber is trying to decide if it is a good idea to keep the > > fireworks thing going next year. If you care about this issue, you > > should contact the Chamber 882-1800 > > BL > > > > Mitch Parks wrote: > > > > > I've been gone for a couple of weeks and may have missed this in the > > > mire... > > > > > > Are there "grand" Moscow Fireworks this year? Where and when? > > > > > > Mitch Parks > > > Moscow, ID > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 06:26:26 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030701052626.25309.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> "but the flame war has been entertaining!" Amen! Mr. Donovan Arnold has really flown off the handle a few times this last week or so. It has really been quite entertaining. Not that that was what was trying to be achieved or anything similar, but just in the logical course of discussion, he got bent out of shape and became, well, shrill, and his arguments became weaker as he became louder. Cheers! John Harrell --- Ted Moffett wrote: > Donovan et. al. > > If you have already agreed that MSD can be more efficient and lower costs, > this admission does not automatically lead to the conclusion you say Dale > will assume it does, namely that a private school is the answer to solve the > alleged inefficiencies at MSD. It could mean MSD needs internal reforms of > one sort or another, or it could mean more volunteers in the school from the > community or getting parents more involved in their child's education could > lower costs, etc. but all this might be done without involving a private > school or schools. > > But for you to look at Dale's statistics and say, yes, maybe there is a > problem with the costs at MSD, now Dale please tell me what you would cut > from the MSD budget to solve this problem without eliminating programs and > services etc. or give me an example of a private school that provides all > the programs and services etc. at MSD for less money, is a simple sort of > conversation two people who are interested in the truth, rather than proving > their entrenched positions, might have. > > It did not seem that either of you were having this sort of reasonable give > and take in your discussion, but the flame war has been entertaining! > > Ted > > > > >From: "Donovan Arnold" > >To: ted_moffett@hotmail.com, dale@courtneys.us > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply > >Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:32:06 -0700 > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From peterson@moscow.com Tue Jul 1 06:54:27 2003 From: peterson@moscow.com (peterson@moscow.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:54:27 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] More New Multi-family Units Message-ID: <3F00BFA3.28010.FC5DD86@localhost> Hi, I'm feeling perplexed, not about the heavy stuff like the meaning of life...but about life in Moscow. I can not understand why a major property owner can be getting a subdivision plat for 20 new 12plexes run through City Hill without the Water Department taking care of run off of fresh water from Well #8 in the NW corner of Moscow. You see every time that city well kicks on it pumps up about 1500 gallons of pure fresh drinking water and then lets it drain down a ravine into a storm drain below. The course that the 10,000 year old water follows is exactly where Robert Peterson Jr. of Lewiston is having an extension of Baker Street built as we speak. He's just going to provide a culvert for the water as the City lets it slip through unused!! Another weird thing about this is that Peterson's subdivision plan is still only 1/2 way through the preliminary stage of getting the City Council's OK! So why is he being allowed to bury the fresh drinking water before he even has on ok to go ahead with his unnessary high density subdivision!? If anyone knows the public's input isn't needed by the City please let me know! If you want to let the Coucil know how you feel; they'll be a hearing on this plan on Monday night July 7 in the Council Chambers at 7:00. However, the P and Z hearing started about 1.5 hours after it was advertised to start and some left before the hearing even started! (Lawyers: Is it legal to start a hearing at the time it was supposed to be without even mentioning it to those present or for the record?) Pam Peterson From melyndah@wsu.edu Tue Jul 1 16:49:19 2003 From: melyndah@wsu.edu (Melynda Huskey) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 08:49:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism In-Reply-To: <20030701040741.50733.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030630233104.76186.qmail@web10505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030701084209.00ac0c60@mail.wsu.edu> John writes: >I pulled the quotes off of another bulletin board. . . . And so what >anyway. If I had found that >website, I would given the link, because I really don't care who first >compiled them. So actually Melynda did me a service. Ah, the old "Well, it's not plagiarism if I steal it from someone who's already stolen it" argument--also popular among fraternity men using the house files. This is your second strike, John: the Academic Misconduct committee would be seeing you if you were my student. I'd suggest that if you hope to use quotations to bolster an argument, it behooves you to collect your own, and to be sure that they are accurate and germane. That's how grownups argue. Of course, if your opinions are acquired in the same way as your quotations, perhaps it doesn't matter. Anybody missing a derivative and unsupported claim? John's got a Lost and Found Ideas box you might check. Melynda Huskey From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 17:25:58 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 09:25:58 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism Message-ID: In reading some of the quotes from Mr. Harrell regarding the liberal humanist crusade to control the world's children, I must express disappointment in myself for being unaware of this. I, a confirmed liberal, without any religious leanings at all, probably fall into that dastardly category of evil mind controllers. And I didn't even know it. I've just been blundering along this summer, watching the Mariners, wondering when Tiger Woods is going to break out of his "slump", reading golf books and drinking beer. If someone on this listserve has access to the liberal humanist directives I've apparently been missing, would you please forward them to me? I obviously have much catching up to do, and young minds to control. But can I wait until after the fourth of July before I start? Got fireworks and golf to watch first. Carl Westberg Jr. >From: Melynda Huskey >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With >Plagrism >Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 08:49:19 -0700 > >John writes: > >>I pulled the quotes off of another bulletin board. . . . And so what >>anyway. If I had found that >>website, I would given the link, because I really don't care who first >>compiled them. So actually Melynda did me a service. > >Ah, the old "Well, it's not plagiarism if I steal it from someone who's >already stolen it" argument--also popular among fraternity men using the >house files. This is your second strike, John: the Academic Misconduct >committee would be seeing you if you were my student. > >I'd suggest that if you hope to use quotations to bolster an argument, it >behooves you to collect your own, and to be sure that they are accurate and >germane. That's how grownups argue. > >Of course, if your opinions are acquired in the same way as your >quotations, perhaps it doesn't matter. > >Anybody missing a derivative and unsupported claim? John's got a Lost and >Found Ideas box you might check. > >Melynda Huskey > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 18:09:28 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030701084209.00ac0c60@mail.wsu.edu> Message-ID: <20030701170928.27570.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1766027154-1057079368=:27533 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Wait a second, are you saying the following quotes are not true? QUOTATION: When an opponent declares, “I will not come over to your side,” I calmly say, “Your child belongs to us already.... What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community.” ATTRIBUTION: Adolf Hitler (1889–1945), German dictator. speech, Nov. 6, 1933. Quoted in William L. Shirer, “Education in the Third Reich,” ch. 8, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1959); speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend (Hitler Youth Corps). It was Adolph Hitler who said, "Let me control the textbooks, and I will control the state." Norman Thomas, Socialist and member of the Civil Liberties Union, boldly told the world, "The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened." "Give me your four year olds," said Lenin "and in a generation I will build a Socialist state." Lesbian author Patricia Warren, boldly told the gay and lesbian community, "It is the FIRST fact of civilization that--whoever captures the kids - owns the future." In his book ‘The Science Of Power’, Benjamin Kidd wrote, "Give us the young. -- Give us the young and We will create a new mind and a new Earth in a SINGLE generation." Ross L. Finny, a socialist PhD in one of his books tells us this; "Everything depends on passing out the expert opinions of the social scientists to the masses of the people; the schools are the only adequate agency for this function." Lastly, the American Humanist Association understands the importance of capturing the children – for they have written: "In order to capture this nation, one has to totally remove moral and spiritual values and absolutes from the thinking of the child. The child has to think that there is no standard of right and wrong, that truth is relative, and that diversity is the only absolute to be gained." Cheers! John Harrell Melynda Huskey wrote: John writes: >I pulled the quotes off of another bulletin board. . . . And so what >anyway. If I had found that >website, I would given the link, because I really don't care who first >compiled them. So actually Melynda did me a service. Ah, the old "Well, it's not plagiarism if I steal it from someone who's already stolen it" argument--also popular among fraternity men using the house files. This is your second strike, John: the Academic Misconduct committee would be seeing you if you were my student. I'd suggest that if you hope to use quotations to bolster an argument, it behooves you to collect your own, and to be sure that they are accurate and germane. That's how grownups argue. Of course, if your opinions are acquired in the same way as your quotations, perhaps it doesn't matter. Anybody missing a derivative and unsupported claim? John's got a Lost and Found Ideas box you might check. Melynda Huskey _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1766027154-1057079368=:27533 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Wait a second, are you saying the following quotes are not true?
 
QUOTATION: When an opponent declares, “I will not come over to your side,” I
calmly say, “Your child belongs to us already.... What are you? You will pass
on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they
will know nothing else but this new community.”

ATTRIBUTION: Adolf Hitler (1889–1945), German dictator. speech, Nov. 6, 1933.
Quoted in William L. Shirer, “Education in the Third Reich,” ch. 8, The Rise
and Fall of the Third Reich (1959); speaking about the schools and their
indoctrination of the Hilterjugend (Hitler Youth Corps).

It was Adolph Hitler who said, "Let me control the textbooks, and I will
control the state."

Norman Thomas, Socialist and member of the Civil Liberties Union, boldly
told the world, "The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism,
but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the
Socialist program until one day America will! be a Socialist nation without
ever knowing how it happened."

"Give me your four year olds," said Lenin "and in a generation I will build
a Socialist state."

Lesbian author Patricia Warren, boldly told the gay and lesbian community,
"It is the FIRST fact of civilization that--whoever captures the kids - owns
the future."

In his book ‘The Science Of Power’, Benjamin Kidd wrote, "Give us the young.
-- Give us the young and We will create a new mind and a new Earth in a SINGLE
generation."

Ross L. Finny, a socialist PhD in one of his books tells us this; "Everything
depends on passing out the expert opinions of the social scientists to the
masses of the people; the schools are the only adequate agency for this function."

Lastly, the American Humanist Association understands the importance of
capturing the children – for they have written: "In order to capture this
nation, one has to totally remove moral and s! piritual values and absolutes from
the thinking of the child. The child has to think that there is no standard of
right and wrong, that truth is relative, and that diversity is the only absolute
to be gained."
 
Cheers!
John Harrell


Melynda Huskey <melyndah@wsu.edu> wrote:
John writes:

>I pulled the quotes off of another bulletin board. . . . And so what
>anyway. If I had found that
>website, I would given the link, because I really don't care who first
>compiled them. So actually Melynda did me a service.

Ah, the old "Well, it's not plagiarism if I steal it from someone who's
already stolen it" argument--also popular among fraternity men using the
house files. This is your second strike, John: the Academic Misconduct
committee would be seeing you if you were my student.

I'd suggest that if you hope to use quotations to bolster an argument, it
behooves you to collect your own, and to be sure that they are accurate and
germane. That's how grownups argue.

Of course, if your opinions are acquired in the same way as your
quotations, perhaps it doesn't matter.

Anybody m! issing a derivative and unsupported claim? John's got a Lost and
Found Ideas box you might check.

Melynda Huskey

_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1766027154-1057079368=:27533-- From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Tue Jul 1 18:15:19 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:15:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely Wit h Plagrism Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FB1@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33FF4.594C0430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Must . . . . stay . . . . . focused . . . . . So . . . .many . . . . . . . . . children So . . . . . . little . . . . . . . time Take care, Tom Hansen "We are not out to control the whole world, just a 'small' part of it." -----Original Message----- From: John Harrell [mailto:johnbharrell@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:09 AM To: Melynda Huskey; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism Wait a second, are you saying the following quotes are not true? QUOTATION: When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side," I calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already.... What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community." ATTRIBUTION: Adolf Hitler (1889-1945), German dictator. speech, Nov. 6, 1933. Quoted in William L. Shirer, "Education in the Third Reich," ch. 8, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1959); speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend (Hitler Youth Corps). It was Adolph Hitler who said, "Let me control the textbooks, and I will control the state." Norman Thomas, Socialist and member of the Civil Liberties Union, boldly told the world, "The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will! be a Socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened." "Give me your four year olds," said Lenin "and in a generation I will build a Socialist state." Lesbian author Patricia Warren, boldly told the gay and lesbian community, "It is the FIRST fact of civilization that--whoever captures the kids - owns the future." In his book 'The Science Of Power', Benjamin Kidd wrote, "Give us the young. -- Give us the young and We will create a new mind and a new Earth in a SINGLE generation." Ross L. Finny, a socialist PhD in one of his books tells us this; "Everything depends on passing out the expert opinions of the social scientists to the masses of the people; the schools are the only adequate agency for this function." Lastly, the American Humanist Association understands the importance of capturing the children - for they have written: "In order to capture this nation, one has to totally remove moral and s! piritual values and absolutes from the thinking of the child. The child has to think that there is no standard of right and wrong, that truth is relative, and that diversity is the only absolute to be gained." Cheers! John Harrell Melynda Huskey wrote: John writes: >I pulled the quotes off of another bulletin board. . . . And so what >anyway. If I had found that >website, I would given the link, because I really don't care who first >compiled them. So actually Melynda did me a service. Ah, the old "Well, it's not plagiarism if I steal it from someone who's already stolen it" argument--also popular among fraternity men using the house files. This is your second strike, John: the Academic Misconduct committee would be seeing you if you were my student. I'd suggest that if you hope to use quotations to bolster an argument, it behooves you to collect your own, and to be sure that they are accurate and germane. That's how grownups argue. Of course, if your opinions are acquired in the same way as your quotations, perhaps it doesn't matter. Anybody m! issing a derivative and unsupported claim? John's got a Lost and Found Ideas box you might check. Melynda Huskey _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _____ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33FF4.594C0430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Must . . . . stay . . . . . focused . . . . .
 
So . . . .many . . . . . . . . . children
 
So . . . . . . little . . . . . . . time
 
Take care,
 
Tom Hansen
 
"We are not out to control the whole world, just a 'small' part of it."
-----Original Message-----
From: John Harrell [mailto:johnbharrell@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:09 AM
To: Melynda Huskey; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism

Wait a second, are you saying the following quotes are not true?
 
QUOTATION: When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side," I
calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already.... What are you? You will pass
on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they
will know nothing else but this new community."

ATTRIBUTION: Adolf Hitler (1889-1945), German dictator. speech, Nov. 6, 1933.
Quoted in William L. Shirer, "Education in the Third Reich," ch. 8, The Rise
and Fall of the Third Reich (1959); speaking about the schools and their
indoctrination of the Hilterjugend (Hitler Youth Corps).

It was Adolph Hitler who said, "Let me control the textbooks, and I will
control the state."

Norman Thomas, Socialist and member of the Civil Liberties Union, boldly
told the world, "The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism,
but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the
Socialist program until one day America will! be a Socialist nation without
ever knowing how it happened."

"Give me your four year olds," said Lenin "and in a generation I will build
a Socialist state."

Lesbian author Patricia Warren, boldly told the gay and lesbian community,
"It is the FIRST fact of civilization that--whoever captures the kids - owns
the future."

In his book 'The Science Of Power', Benjamin Kidd wrote, "Give us the young.
-- Give us the young and We will create a new mind and a new Earth in a SINGLE
generation."

Ross L. Finny, a socialist PhD in one of his books tells us this; "Everything
depends on passing out the expert opinions of the social scientists to the
masses of the people; the schools are the only adequate agency for this function."

Lastly, the American Humanist Association understands the importance of
capturing the children - for they have written: "In order to capture this
nation, one has to totally remove moral and s! piritual values and absolutes from
the thinking of the child. The child has to think that there is no standard of
right and wrong, that truth is relative, and that diversity is the only absolute
to be gained."
 
Cheers!
John Harrell


Melynda Huskey <melyndah@wsu.edu> wrote:
John writes:

>I pulled the quotes off of another bulletin board. . . . And so what
>anyway. If I had found that
>website, I would given the link, because I really don't care who first
>compiled them. So actually Melynda did me a service.

Ah, the old "Well, it's not plagiarism if I steal it from someone who's
already stolen it" argument--also popular among fraternity men using the
house files. This is your second strike, John: the Academic Misconduct
committee would be seeing you if you were my student.

I'd suggest that if you hope to use quotations to bolster an argument, it
behooves you to collect your own, and to be sure that they are accurate and
germane. That's how grownups argue.

Of course, if your opinions are acquired in the same way as your
quotations, perhaps it doesn't matter.

Anybody m! issing a derivative and unsupported claim? John's got a Lost and
Found Ideas box you might check.

Melynda Huskey

_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
------_=_NextPart_001_01C33FF4.594C0430-- From melyndah@wsu.edu Tue Jul 1 18:32:56 2003 From: melyndah@wsu.edu (Melynda Huskey) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 10:32:56 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism In-Reply-To: <20030701170928.27570.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030701084209.00ac0c60@mail.wsu.edu> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030701102042.022d0c80@mail.wsu.edu> At 10:09 AM 7/1/2003 -0700, John Harrell wrote: >Wait a second, are you saying the following quotes are not true? Dear John, Let's try again. Neither of us has any idea whether those quotations (with the exception of Hitler as quoted by William Shirer) are accurate, since neither of us has seen the original sources of those quotations. Unless you can tell me where Norman Thomas, Patricia Warren [sic--her name is actually Patricia Nell Warren], or Ross Finny, Socialist Ph.D., said the things attributed to them, I have no reason to believe that they did. Certainly your thirdhand reproduction of the quotations does not attest to their authenticity. Nor do the typos and grammatical errors so painstakingly reproduced from the original essay. So in fact, I'm saying that we have no way of knowing if the quotations are real. Whether or not they are true is an imponderable. Is anybody still wondering if government schools serve a purpose? Fighting under the banner of pedantry, Melynda Huskey From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Tue Jul 1 18:38:04 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:38:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Humanist Quotes That Have Recently Been Overlooked Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FB2@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Golly! In less than a minute of searing I found the following quotes at www.AmericanHumanist.org. Humanists recognize that it is only when people feel free to think for themselves, using reason as their guide, that they are best capable of developing values that succeed in satisfying human needs and serving human interests. * ISAAC ASIMOV - scientist, author, and past president of the American Humanist Association. It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. * ALBERT EINSTEIN - scientist, Nobel Prizewinner in physics, originator of the theory of relativity. When we speak of equality, of women and men, of Blacks and Whites, of all the world's people, we are talking about humanism. * GLORIA STEINEM - founder of Ms.magazine, Humanist Pioneer Awardee. Humanism, in all its simplicity, is the only genuine spirituality. * ALBERT SCHWEITZER - accepting the Nobel Peace Prize. Humanism is a philosophy of joyous service for the greater good of all humanity, of application of new ideas of scientific progress for the benefit of all. * LINUS PAULING - scientist, Humanist of the Year in 1961, Nobel Prize in chemistry in 1954, Nobel Peace Prize in 1962. Our nation's founders saw a free press and an educated citizenry as the twin pillars of democratic health. But we no longer live in their world of numerous small, independent presses. These days, the vast majority of Americans get their news from corporately-owned information monoliths and from their local newspapers, most of them corporate subsidiaries as well. That is why humanism and the Humanist magazine are so important. Won't you join us today? * KURT VONNEGUT - author, lecturer, philanthropist and honorary president of the American Humanist Association. Yes, Mr. Harrell. Add the above names to your list of mind controlling, child abusers. Doesn't seem so bad to me. Take Care, Tom Hansen From nielsen@uidaho.edu Tue Jul 1 18:46:18 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:46:18 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Vision2020 digest, Vol 1 #508 - Heaven and hell In-Reply-To: <20030701042501.76830.29683.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: > From: "Luke" > Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 7:00:16 PM US/Pacific > To: "Ralph Nielsen" , "vision2020" > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell? > > LN > Hello, Mr. Nielsen, > > Thanks for your reply, but I find myself in considerable disagreement > with > you. RN (6/29, omitted by Luke Nieuwsma) Mr. Nieuwsma seems to have the idea that moral behavior depends on the existence of a god or gods. Some of the most atrocious human actions have been done in the name of a god. He also seems to imply that it is the threat of postmortem punishment by a god that makes people behave morally. This is flatly contradicted by the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament to Christians). > RN >> have been done in the name of a god. He also seems to imply that it is >> the threat of postmortem punishment by a god that makes people behave >> morally. This is flatly contradicted by the Hebrew Bible (Old >> Testament >> to Christians). > LN > The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise > wisdom > and instruction - Prov 1:7 > The Hebrew word for "fear" there is yir'ah, a moral/reverent fear, > since you > don't seem to trust modern translations. RN (7/1) Exactly. the only way Yahweh (the LORD) can punish you is while you are alive. (I don't know what Luke means by modern translations, but the KJV is not one of them.) > RN >> In the Hebrew religion there is no such thing as a separate soul and >> there is no life after death. In the entire Old Testament not one >> single person dies and goes to heaven. > LN > I believe you are incorrect. Consider Psalm 17:15 - > "As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied > when > I awake in your likeness." RN (7/1) This psalm is not about an afterlife but about Yahweh (the LORD) protecting David from mortals (other men) (vs.14). The final verse reads: "Then I, justified, will behold your face; awake, I am filled with the vision of You" (Psalm 17:15 Tanakh, Jewish Publication Society). I like modern translations, especially Jewish ones when dealing with the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament). > > RN > And no one dies and goes to hell >> either (except in dishonest translations like the King James Version). > > LN > Take a look at Prov 1:12 > "12 Let us swallow them alive like Sheol, and whole, like those who go > down > to the Pit." > Sheol, or she'owl is the Hebrew word for hell. RN (7/1) Sorry, Luke, you're wrong. Sheol means "grave, death, depths, depths of the grave, realm of death" No. 8619 in The NIV Exhaustive Concordance. "Sheol. this word is used in the OT for the place of the dead. The derivation of the Hebrew word is uncertain." (New Bible Dictionary. 3rd ed. Ed. by I. Howard Marshall [et al.]) LN > How about Isaiah 14:15? Or Ezekiel 32:24? The latter in particular > draws a > contrast between hell and the land of the living. RN (7/1) Isaiah 14 is a scornful poem directed at the newly defeated king of Babylon, or Lucifer, as the KJV calls him (vs. 14b). "Worms are to be your bed, Maggots your blanket" (vs. 11b) doesn't sound like a fiery hell to me. > There are hundreds more quotations I could refer to. I know you have a > good > deal of bible [Bible] knowledge, but if you think that the OT does not > include > heaven and hell, you must have missed some things. RN (7/1) I did not say the OT did not include heaven. The OT says it is the abode of Yahweh (the LORD) God and the heavenly household (see Job 1:6, etc.). I said that not a single person in the OT died and went to heaven. > RN >> I'm afraid Luke Nieuwsma is mistaken to think that most people act >> morally only by a bribe of heaven or a threat of hell. > LN > It is not a bribe, it is a gift if you turn from immorality to > Christ. But > hell is not a threat, it is our just deserts. RN (7/1) Many people have died without ever hearing about Christ. Luke, your idea that "... hell is not a threat, it is our just deserts" is sick and utterly immoral, as judged by the Golden Rule. It is the kind of sado-masochism that has been preached by Christians for centuries. It is not fit for a civilized society. End of sermon. A good overview of afterlife ideas in the Bible can be found at http://www.uncc.edu/jdtabor/future.html From nielsen@uidaho.edu Tue Jul 1 18:55:51 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:55:51 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Private letter In-Reply-To: <20030701171000.54562.19140.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <40F48458-ABED-11D7-ADCF-00039385F674@uidaho.edu> --Apple-Mail-44--681943330 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Donovan. I have noticed before and here, too, that you seem to want to write=20 "then" for "than." This doesn't look good in letters about education. Ralph > From: Donovan Arnold > Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:32:06 PM US/Pacific > To: ted_moffett@hotmail.com, dale@courtneys.us > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply > > > Ted, > > Nonetheless, Dale is asking me to admit that MSD is wasting money more=20= > then a private institution would be while still providing the=20 > same opportunities. I do not accept his notion without proof. > > Thereby negating the entire=A0need=A0of proof that MSD is wasting = money.=20 > Then [correctly used here] we go round and round again without a=20= > single drop of evidence being provided that a private institution=20 > would offer the same opportunities as a public school for all > = children. > > > If Dale shows, the community that indeed there is a Private school=20 > that does more effectively run then > a public school that still provides the same opportunities=A0for a=20 > student for less money, Then I will admit I am wrong, and that it can=20= > be done, and that MSD is in fact wasteful,=A0join Dale in getting MSD = to=20 > adopt this "private schools" model. All I ask is the name of one=20 > private school, that is it, if he knows one, why not say it and=20 > convince me and everyone else. What logic is there in hiding this=20 > information from all of us? Really makes no sense at all. > > > But Dale can't provide=A0the name of a private school that does, = because=20 > one doesn't exist. Rather then admitting this, he simply asks=20= > questions in response to hide that he=A0hasn't done any research to = find=20 > out that Private schools don't provide same services for less money. > > > Thanks! > > > Donovan J Arnold=A0=A0 > --Apple-Mail-44--681943330 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Donovan. I have noticed before and here, too, that you seem to want to write "then" for "than." This doesn't look good in letters about education. Ralph From: Donovan Arnold < Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:32:06 PM US/Pacific To: ted_moffett@hotmail.com, dale@courtneys.us Cc: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Ted, Nonetheless, Dale is asking me to admit that MSD is wasting money more =20= then a private institution would be while still providing the same opportunities. I do not accept his notion without proof. Thereby negating the entire=A0need=A0of proof that MSD is = wasting money. Then [correctly used here] =20= we go round and round again without a single drop of evidence being provided that a private institution would offer the same opportunities as a public school for all children. If Dale shows, the community that indeed there is a Private school that does more effectively run =20 then =20 a public school that still provides the same opportunities=A0for a student for less money, Then I will admit I am wrong, and that it can be done, and that MSD is in fact wasteful,=A0join Dale in getting MSD to adopt this "private schools" model. All I ask is the name of one private school, that is it, if he knows one, why not say it and convince me and everyone else. What logic is there in hiding this information from all of us? Really makes no sense at = all. But Dale can't provide=A0the name of a private school that does, because one doesn't exist. Rather then =20= admitting this, he simply asks questions in response to hide that he=A0hasn't done any research to find out that Private schools don't provide same services for less money. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold=A0=A0 = --Apple-Mail-44--681943330-- From davidcb@acm.org Tue Jul 1 21:18:03 2003 From: davidcb@acm.org (David Camden-Britton) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:18:03 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030701130559.023b7a88@mail.turbonet.com> At 09:25 AM 7/1/2003 -0700, "Carl Westberg" wrote:
going to break out of his "slump", reading golf books and drinking beer.  If someone on this listserve has access to the liberal humanist directives I've apparently been missing, would you please forward them to me?  I obviously have much catching up to do, and young minds to control.  But can I wait until after the fourth of July before I start?  Got fireworks and golf to watch first.


Welcome to the Collective, Comrade Carl. 

A copy of the introductory pamphlet -- Liberal Humanism and Thought Control -- or, How to Reprogram the Masses on Twelve Rubles a Day -- has been sent to you along with your special decoder ring, "I became a Liberal Humanist and all I got was this lousy T-shirt" torso cover, a picture of our founder -- the resurrected JosephHitlerStalinMengelebot -- and of course a handy day planner / Liberal Humanist Agenda. Check out August 12th, where we take over all forms of media.  Don't forget the ice cream social on the 15th of this month, located at ZDQCKLOEZRHPRADOZB QM,UBCFWX'HHQVH? 

Comrade Betsy E. Nigma will be making her luscious devil's food cake and Blood of
Christian Babies milkshakes.  Hope to see you there!  I'll be wearing my "Morality is for Suckers" t-shirt.

Liberal Humanism -- Hitleriffic Morality for the Masses OR ELSE!

David Camden-Britton -=)*(=-  davidcb@acm.org From timlohr@yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 21:40:31 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Harrassment of a Civil Rights Legend (NY POST column) Message-ID: <20030701204031.98203.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, A bit dated, but interesting. TL HARASSMENT OF A CIVIL RIGHTS LEGEND New York Post by Maggie Gallagher Tuesday, August 7, 2001 After the Rev. Walter Fauntroy, a black civil rights leader, joined an interfaith, multicultural coalition supporting a Federal Marriage Amendment that would block court-imposed gay marriage, Rick Rosendall, vice president of the Gay and Lesbian Activist Alliance, circulated the following e-mail: "I wish to thank Mark Thompson, chair of the NAACP-DC Police Task Force, who called Rev. Fauntroy to convey my objections to Fauntroy's participation in such an attack on the gay community. Mark reports that Fauntroy expressed strong feelings about marriage and is immovable on the subject. So Fauntroy wraps himself in democracy and the civil rights movement while seeking to disenfranchise a group of Americans. Truly obscene. "Call Rev. Fauntroy at home . . . and register your objection to his alliance with anti-gay bigots. Tell him how offensive it is that he -- a civil rights veteran, of all people -- would deny to others freedoms that he himself enjoys." Here's the question: Will these kinds of uncivil, name-calling, harassment tactics, demonizing those who disagree, ultimately succeed? If decent people permit these tactics to be used against a man called a "civil rights legend," who is safe? My own column opposing gay marriage provoked curiously uniform responses from gay activists. Fauntroy is a black conservative, they told me, not a real civil rights leader, like Coretta Scott King. Curiouser and curiouser. In August 2000 you could find Rev. Fauntroy at a press conference denouncing racial profiling organized by the Rev. Al Sharpton. In January, he was again shoulder to shoulder with Sharpton, denouncing Bush's illegitimate election. A founding member of the Congressional Black Caucus, current president of the National Black Leadership Council (an arm of the CBC), Rev. Fauntroy probably agrees with me about very little politically, except for the importance of protecting marriage. Makes sense to me. Marriage is neither a conservative nor a liberal issue; it is a universal human institution, guaranteeing children fathers, and pointing men and women toward a special kind of socially as well as personally fruitful sexual relationship. Gay marriage is the final step down a long road America has already traveled toward deinstitutionalizing, denuding and privatizing marriage. It would set in legal stone some of the most destructive ideas of the sexual revolution: There are no differences between men and women that matter, marriage has nothing to do with procreation, children do not really need mothers and fathers, the diverse family forms adults choose are all equally good for children. One reason that all major world religions strive to channel human sexuality toward this relatively narrow definition of marriage -- fruitful, potentially procreative sex between men and women (while either discouraging or merely tolerating other forms of sexual expression) -- is that only societies that adopt this sexual ethic grow to become large, complex cultures in the first place. If I am right, gays as much as any other Americans have a stake in the re-creation of a functioning marriage culture. The quiet, back-door demonization and harassment of Fauntroy is consistent with the ongoing attempt by certain gay organizations to shut down debate over this dangerous transformation that the courts are wreaking on our marriage laws. Increasingly, gay activists are the self-righteous zealots, stigmatizing any disagreement with their point of view, no matter how reasoned and civil, as bigotry, hate speech and discrimination. In the civil rights movement, it was the racial bigots who engaged in such name-calling. In the gay marriage movement, it is increasingly the advocates of gay marriage who claim the right to hate and stigmatize Americans who have a different point of view. I don't know what to call a group that feels free to dub a civil rights legend a bigot because he does not support same-sex marriage, and to circulate his home phone number over an Internet list so broad that one of them even ended up in my mailbox. Tolerant isn't the word that comes to mind. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From timlohr@yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 21:49:06 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Email Lists/Bloggers Gain Libel Protection Message-ID: <20030701204906.32506.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, Of course this is from the 9th Circuit--THE most likely to be overturned of them all. So take it for what it's worth. But anyway, FYI > Email Lists/Bloggers Gain Libel Protection > > http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,59424,00.html > > By Xeni Jardin > > The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled last > Tuesday that Web loggers, website operators and > e-mail list editors can't be held responsible for > libel for information they republish, extending > crucial First Amendment protections to > do-it-yourself online publishers. > > Online free speech advocates praised the decision as > a victory. The ruling effectively differentiates > conventional news media, which can be sued > relatively easily for libel, from certain forms of > online communication such as moderated e-mail lists. > One implication is that DIY publishers like bloggers > cannot be sued as easily. > > "One-way news publications have editors and > fact-checkers, and they're not just selling > information -- they're selling reliability," said > Cindy Cohn, legal director of the Electronic > Frontier Foundation. "But on blogs or e-mail lists, > people aren't necessarily selling anything, they're > just engaging in speech. That freedom of speech > wouldn't exist if you were held liable for every > piece of information you cut, paste and forward." > > The court based its decision on a section of the > 1996 Communications > Decency Act, or the CDA. That section states, "... > no provider or user of an interactive computer > service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker > of any information provided by another information > content provider." Three cases since then -- Zeran > v. AOL, Gentry v. eBay and Schneider v. Amazon -- > have granted immunity to commercial online service > providers. > > Tuesday's court ruling clarifies the reach of the > immunity granted by the CDA to cover noncommercial > publishers like list-server operators and others who > take a personal role in deleting or approving > messages for online publication. > > "Here, the court basically said that when it comes > to Internet publication, you can edit, pick and > choose, and still be protected," said Cohn. > > The case traces back to a North Carolina town in > 1999, where handyman > Robert Smith was repairing a truck owned by attorney > and art collector > Ellen Batzel. Smith claimed to have overheard Batzel > say she was related > to Nazi Gestapo head Heinrich Himmler. He said he > concluded that the > European paintings he saw in her home must be stolen > goods, and shared > this in an e-mail he sent to the editor of the > Museum Security Network, an organization that > publishes information about stolen art. > > Without telling Smith the e-mail would be published, > Ton Cremers -- the > sole operator of Amsterdam-based Museum Security > Network –- made minor > edits, then posted Smith's e-mail to a list of about > 1,000 museum directors, journalists, auction houses, > gallery owners and Interpol and FBI agents. > > Three months later, Batzel learned of the post. She > contacted Cremers to > deny both the stolen art and Nazi ancestry > allegations. She also said > Smith's claims were motivated by financial disputes > over contracting > work. > > Smith said he had no idea Cremers would publish a > private e-mail on the > list or on the Web. > > Batzel sued Smith, Cremers and the Museum Security > Network for > defamation and won. Cremers appealed. > > The appeals court questioned whether Cremers' minor > edits to > Smith's e-mail altered it so much that the post > became a new piece of > expression, and decided it had not. But because > Smith claims he didn't > know the e-mail would be published, the court also > questioned whether the > immunity provision of the Act applied, and passed > the case back > > to the district court. The lower court will > reconsider whether Cremers > had reasonable belief that Smith's e-mail was > intended for publication. > > "Some weblogs are interesting mixes of original and > forwarded content, > so this issue may come up again in the courts," > EFF's Cohn said. "Where > that legal line is drawn may become a point of > contention." > > Ellen Batzel says the case changed her life. > > "This was a small, North Carolina mountain town -- I > talked to the > (district attorney) and he said 'Get a dog, get a > gun, get a security > system or better yet get out of town.' I sold my > house and moved. I've > been hurt in my professional reputation and in my > private life. > > "I know what free speech is, and I support it, but > this is about > invasion of privacy and my civil liberty. Every time > I meet someone now, > I have to say, 'Hi, I'm not Himmler's > granddaughter." > > Attorney Howard Fredman, who represented Batzel in > the case, said the > next legal steps could include a rehearing before > the appeals court, or > petitioning the U.S. Supreme Court. > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 22:22:52 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:22:52 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID: John, Donovan, Dale: Lest I be misunderstood, I think both Dale and Donovan were not willing to bend a bit at times to allow for a reasonable give and take in their debate. But I agree for the most part with what Donovan was saying. And Dale has yet to provide answers to the two important questions Donovan asked, even after Donovan pointed out that he has and will acknowledge that MSD has inefficiencies that cost $. I think public education is an appropriate use of tax revenue that provides important programs and services, that private schools do not offer, that plays a critical role in our society. And for Dale to claim the educational system will be improved with competition from private schools, he must site private schools that offer all the programs and services that MSD does, so that competition in all these areas actually occurs, and that the comparison is between schools that are similar. When Dale refuses to site one private school that offers all the programs and services that MSD does, and does it for less, he has not shown that private schools really are competitive when looking at the big picture. Dale is just comparing an efficient gas/electric hybrid (a private school) to an SUV (a pubic school), and saying, look at how efficient the gas/electric hybrid is! That SUV is a waste of money! But how many kids can the SUV carry compared to the gas/electric? And can the gas/electric hybrid carry a wheel chair lift for the handicapped student? And so on... Dale, we are waiting for your answers to Donovan's questions. Ted >From: John Harrell >To: Ted Moffett , donovanarnold@hotmail.com, >dale@courtneys.us >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply >Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:26:26 -0700 (PDT) > >"but the flame war has been entertaining!" > >Amen! > >Mr. Donovan Arnold has really flown off the handle a few times this last >week or so. It has really been quite entertaining. Not that that was what >was trying to be achieved or anything similar, but just in the logical >course of discussion, he got bent out of shape and became, well, shrill, >and his arguments became weaker as he became louder. > >Cheers! >John Harrell > > >--- Ted Moffett wrote: > > Donovan et. al. > > > > If you have already agreed that MSD can be more efficient and lower >costs, > > this admission does not automatically lead to the conclusion you say >Dale > > will assume it does, namely that a private school is the answer to solve >the > > alleged inefficiencies at MSD. It could mean MSD needs internal reforms >of > > one sort or another, or it could mean more volunteers in the school from >the > > community or getting parents more involved in their child's education >could > > lower costs, etc. but all this might be done without involving a private > > school or schools. > > > > But for you to look at Dale's statistics and say, yes, maybe there is a > > problem with the costs at MSD, now Dale please tell me what you would >cut > > from the MSD budget to solve this problem without eliminating programs >and > > services etc. or give me an example of a private school that provides >all > > the programs and services etc. at MSD for less money, is a simple sort >of > > conversation two people who are interested in the truth, rather than >proving > > their entrenched positions, might have. > > > > It did not seem that either of you were having this sort of reasonable >give > > and take in your discussion, but the flame war has been entertaining! > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > >From: "Donovan Arnold" > > >To: ted_moffett@hotmail.com, dale@courtneys.us > > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com > > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply > > >Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:32:06 -0700 > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >http://sbc.yahoo.com > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 22:48:54 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030701102042.022d0c80@mail.wsu.edu> Message-ID: <20030701214854.74448.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> --0-625498073-1057096134=:74231 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Melynda Huskey, I did a complex google search on some of the quotes and found this list, thought you might be interested in these also. Amazing what shows up when we "google." "Ready, set, GOOGLE!" (attributed to Doug Wilson, on this board, you will have to search for the exact email and date - but since this isn't a college thesis - who cares! - well, maybe Melynda.) The following came from here: http://cpt_peewee.tripod.com/educat.htm In 1918 Benjamin Kidd published in London a book, The Science of Power. On page 309 he wrote: “Oh you blind leaders who seek to convert the world by labored disputations. Step out of the way or the world must fling you aside. GIVE US THE YOUNG. GIVE US THE YOUNG and we will create a new mind and a new earth in a single generation.” Ten years later in 1928 Ross L. Finney, Ph. D., published in the United States A Sociological Philosophy of Education. On page 118 Finney wrote, “Everything depends on passing out the expert opinions of the social scientists to the masses of the people; and the schools, particularly the high schools, are the only adequate agency available for this function.” And on page 117 he had just said, “It is the business of teachers to run not merely the school, but the world; and the world will never be truly civilized until they assume that responsibility.” Another interesting quote comes from The Reconstruction of Religion by Charles A. Ellwood, Ph. D., Professor of Sociology, University Of Missouri, 1923, page 177: “Human institutions, sociology shows, are in every case learned adjustments. As such, they can be modified provided we can obtain control of the learning process.” And the American Humanist Association understands the importance of capturing the children for they have written: “In order to capture this nation, one has to totally remove moral and spiritual values and absolutes from the thinking of the child. The child has to think that there is no standard of right and wrong, that truth is relative, and that diversity is the only absolute to be gained.” Cheers! John Harrell Melynda Huskey wrote: At 10:09 AM 7/1/2003 -0700, John Harrell wrote: >Wait a second, are you saying the following quotes are not true? Dear John, Let's try again. Neither of us has any idea whether those quotations (with the exception of Hitler as quoted by William Shirer) are accurate, since neither of us has seen the original sources of those quotations. Unless you can tell me where Norman Thomas, Patricia Warren [sic--her name is actually Patricia Nell Warren], or Ross Finny, Socialist Ph.D., said the things attributed to them, I have no reason to believe that they did. Certainly your thirdhand reproduction of the quotations does not attest to their authenticity. Nor do the typos and grammatical errors so painstakingly reproduced from the original essay. So in fact, I'm saying that we have no way of knowing if the quotations are real. Whether or not they are true is an imponderable. Is anybody still wondering if government schools serve a purpose? Fighting under the banner of pedantry, Melynda Huskey _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-625498073-1057096134=:74231 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hello Melynda Huskey,
 
I did a complex google search on some of the quotes and found this list, thought you might
be interested in these also. Amazing what shows up when we "google."
 
"Ready, set, GOOGLE!" (attributed to Doug Wilson, on this board, you will have to search for
the exact email and date - but since this isn't a college thesis - who cares! - well, maybe Melynda.)
 
The following came from here: http://cpt_peewee.tripod.com/educat.htm
 
In 1918 Benjamin Kidd published in London a book, The Science of Power. On page 309 he wrote: “Oh you blind leaders who seek to convert the world by labored disputations. Step out of the way or the world must fling you aside. GIVE US THE YOUNG. GIVE US THE YOUNG and we will create a new mind and a new earth in a single generation.”
 
Ten years later in 1928 Ross L. Finney, Ph. D., published in the United States A Sociological Philosophy of Education. On page 118 Finney wrote, “Everything depends on passing out the expert opinions of the social scientists to the masses of the people; and the schools, particularly the high schools, are the only adequate agency available for this function.”
 
And on page 117 he had just said, “It is the business of teachers to run not merely the school, but the world; and the world will never be truly civilized until they assume that responsibility.”

Another interesting quote comes from The Reconstruction of Religion by Charles A. Ellwood, Ph. D., Professor of Sociology, University Of Missouri, 1923, page 177: “Human institutions, sociology shows, are in every case learned adjustments. As such, they can be modified provided we can obtain control of the learning process.”

And the American Humanist Association understands the importance of capturing the children for they have written: “In order to capture this nation, one has to totally remove moral and spiritual values and absolutes from the thinking of the child. The child has to think that there is no standard of right and wrong, that truth is relative, and that diversity is the only absolute to be gained.”

Cheers!
John Harrell


Melynda Huskey <melyndah@wsu.edu> wrote:
At 10:09 AM 7/1/2003 -0700, John Harrell wrote:

>Wait a second, are you saying the following quotes are not true?

Dear John,

Let's try again. Neither of us has any idea whether those quotations (with
the exception of Hitler as quoted by William Shirer) are accurate, since
neither of us has seen the original sources of those quotations. Unless
you can tell me where Norman Thomas, Patricia Warren [sic--her name is
actually Patricia Nell Warren], or Ross Finny, Socialist Ph.D., said the
things attributed to them, I have no reason to believe that they
did. Certainly your thirdhand reproduction of the quotations does not
attest to their authenticity. Nor do the typos and grammatical errors so
painstakingly reproduced from the original essay.

So in fact, I'm saying that we have no way of knowing if the quotations are real. Whether or not they are true is an imponderable.

Is anybody still wondering if government schools serve a purpose?

Fighting under the banner of pedantry,

Melynda Huskey

_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-625498073-1057096134=:74231-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 22:59:39 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:59:39 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Email Lists/Bloggers Gain Libel Protection Message-ID:

Here is how you get rid of Junk Mail:

Tax them:

1) One cent a piece if you send more then 1000 a day.

2) 5 cents a piece if over 5000 a day. 

3) 15% tax on the profits made through soliciting ads.

4) Give them 0 tax credit for advertising

5) Arrest anyone for tax evasion (minimum 20 years in person) for not paying the fee.

6) Give the money raised to private corporations trying to create spam blocker software.

Donovan J Arnold

>From: Tim Lohrmann
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Email Lists/Bloggers Gain Libel Protection
>Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:49:06 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Visionaries,
> Of course this is from the 9th Circuit--THE most
>likely to be overturned of them all.
> So take it for what it's worth.
> But anyway, FYI
>
>
>
> > Email Lists/Bloggers Gain Libel Protection
> >
> >
>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,59424,00.html
> >
> > By Xeni Jardin
> >
> > The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled last
> > Tuesday that Web loggers, website operators and
> > e-mail list editors can't be held responsible for
> > libel for information they republish, extending
> > crucial First Amendment protections to
> > do-it-yourself online publishers.
> >
> > Online free speech advocates praised the decision as
> > a victory. The ruling effectively differentiates
> > conventional news media, which can be sued
> > relatively easily for libel, from certain forms of
> > online communication such as moderated e-mail lists.
> > One implication is that DIY publishers like bloggers
> > cannot be sued as easily.
> >
> > "One-way news publications have editors and
> > fact-checkers, and they're not just selling
> > information -- they're selling reliability," said
> > Cindy Cohn, legal director of the Electronic
> > Frontier Foundation. "But on blogs or e-mail lists,
> > people aren't necessarily selling anything, they're
> > just engaging in speech. That freedom of speech
> > wouldn't exist if you were held liable for every
> > piece of information you cut, paste and forward."
> >
> > The court based its decision on a section of the
> > 1996 Communications
> > Decency Act, or the CDA. That section states, "...
> > no provider or user of an interactive computer
> > service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker
> > of any information provided by another information
> > content provider." Three cases since then -- Zeran
> > v. AOL, Gentry v. eBay and Schneider v. Amazon --
> > have granted immunity to commercial online service
> > providers.
> >
> > Tuesday's court ruling clarifies the reach of the
> > immunity granted by the CDA to cover noncommercial
> > publishers like list-server operators and others who
> > take a personal role in deleting or approving
> > messages for online publication.
> >
> > "Here, the court basically said that when it comes
> > to Internet publication, you can edit, pick and
> > choose, and still be protected," said Cohn.
> >
> > The case traces back to a North Carolina town in
> > 1999, where handyman
> > Robert Smith was repairing a truck owned by attorney
> > and art collector
> > Ellen Batzel. Smith claimed to have overheard Batzel
> > say she was related
> > to Nazi Gestapo head Heinrich Himmler. He said he
> > concluded that the
> > European paintings he saw in her home must be stolen
> > goods, and shared
> > this in an e-mail he sent to the editor of the
> > Museum Security Network, an organization that
> > publishes information about stolen art.
> >
> > Without telling Smith the e-mail would be published,
> > Ton Cremers -- the
> > sole operator of Amsterdam-based Museum Security
> > Network –- made minor
> > edits, then posted Smith's e-mail to a list of about
> > 1,000 museum directors, journalists, auction houses,
> > gallery owners and Interpol and FBI agents.
> >
> > Three months later, Batzel learned of the post. She
> > contacted Cremers to
> > deny both the stolen art and Nazi ancestry
> > allegations. She also said
> > Smith's claims were motivated by financial disputes
> > over contracting
> > work.
> >
> > Smith said he had no idea Cremers would publish a
> > private e-mail on the
> > list or on the Web.
> >
> > Batzel sued Smith, Cremers and the Museum Security
> > Network for
> > defamation and won. Cremers appealed.
> >
> > The appeals court questioned whether Cremers' minor
> > edits to
> > Smith's e-mail altered it so much that the post
> > became a new piece of
> > expression, and decided it had not. But because
> > Smith claims he didn't
> > know the e-mail would be published, the court also
> > questioned whether the
> > immunity provision of the Act applied, and passed
> > the case back
> >
> > to the district court. The lower court will
> > reconsider whether Cremers
> > had reasonable belief that Smith's e-mail was
> > intended for publication.
> >
> > "Some weblogs are interesting mixes of original and
> > forwarded content,
> > so this issue may come up again in the courts,"
> > EFF's Cohn said. "Where
> > that legal line is drawn may become a point of
> > contention."
> >
> > Ellen Batzel says the case changed her life.
> >
> > "This was a small, North Carolina mountain town -- I
> > talked to the
> > (district attorney) and he said 'Get a dog, get a
> > gun, get a security
> > system or better yet get out of town.' I sold my
> > house and moved. I've
> > been hurt in my professional reputation and in my
> > private life.
> >
> > "I know what free speech is, and I support it, but
> > this is about
> > invasion of privacy and my civil liberty. Every time
> > I meet someone now,
> > I have to say, 'Hi, I'm not Himmler's
> > granddaughter."
> >
> > Attorney Howard Fredman, who represented Batzel in
> > the case, said the
> > next legal steps could include a rehearing before
> > the appeals court, or
> > petitioning the U.S. Supreme Court.
> >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Tue Jul 1 23:23:34 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 15:23:34 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely Wit h Plagrism Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FB3@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3401F.68C09040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I visited the link that Mr. Harrell was so kind to provide. It is a Link to the Free Arkansas Web. This webiste is so radically right wing that it makes Ronald Reagan look like a closet liberal. I feel that it is definitely safe to assume that articles and quotes taken from that site would be extremely slanted and biased (to put it lightly). Makes me proud to be a Democrat. Please continue, John. I'm listening. Tom Hansen Moscow -----Original Message----- From: John Harrell [mailto:johnbharrell@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 2:49 PM To: Melynda Huskey; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism Hello Melynda Huskey, I did a complex google search on some of the quotes and found this list, thought you might be interested in these also. Amazing what shows up when we "google." "Ready, set, GOOGLE!" (attributed to Doug Wilson, on this board, you will have to search for the exact email and date - but since this isn't a college thesis - who cares! - well, maybe Melynda.) The following came from here: http://cpt_peewee.tripod.com/educat.htm In 1918 Benjamin Kidd published in London a book, The Science of Power. On page 309 he wrote: "Oh you blind leaders who seek to convert the world by labored disputations. Step out of the way or the world must fling you aside. GIVE US THE YOUNG. GIVE US THE YOUNG and we will create a new mind and a new earth in a single generation." Ten years later in 1928 Ross L. Finney, Ph. D., published in the United States A Sociological Philosophy of Education. On page 118 Finney wrote, "Everything depends on passing out the expert opinions of the social scientists to the masses of the people; and the schools, particularly the high schools, are the only adequate agency available for this function." And on page 117 he had just said, "It is the business of teachers to run not merely the school, but the world; and the world will never be truly civilized until they assume that responsibility." Another interesting quote comes from The Reconstruction of Religion by Charles A. Ellwood, Ph. D., Professor of Sociology, University Of Missouri, 1923, page 177: "Human institutions, sociology shows, are in every case learned adjustments. As such, they can be modified provided we can obtain control of the learning process." And the American Humanist Association understands the importance of capturing the children for they have written: "In order to capture this nation, one has to totally remove moral and spiritual values and absolutes from the thinking of the child. The child has to think that there is no standard of right and wrong, that truth is relative, and that diversity is the only absolute to be gained." Cheers! John Harrell Melynda Huskey wrote: At 10:09 AM 7/1/2003 -0700, John Harrell wrote: >Wait a second, are you saying the following quotes are not true? Dear John, Let's try again. Neither of us has any idea whether those quotations (with the exception of Hitler as quoted by William Shirer) are accurate, since neither of us has seen the original sources of those quotations. Unless you can tell me where Norman Thomas, Patricia Warren [sic--her name is actually Patricia Nell Warren], or Ross Finny, Socialist Ph.D., said the things attributed to them, I have no reason to believe that they did. Certainly your thirdhand reproduction of the quotations does not attest to their authenticity. Nor do the typos and grammatical errors so painstakingly reproduced from the original essay. So in fact, I'm saying that we have no way of knowing if the quotations are real. Whether or not they are true is an imponderable. Is anybody still wondering if government schools serve a purpose? Fighting under the banner of pedantry, Melynda Huskey _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _____ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3401F.68C09040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I visited the link that Mr. Harrell was so kind to provide.  It is a Link to the Free Arkansas Web.  This webiste is so radically right wing that it makes Ronald Reagan look like a closet liberal.
 
I feel that it is definitely safe to assume that articles and quotes taken from that site would be extremely slanted and biased (to put it lightly).
 
Makes me proud to be a Democrat.
 
Please continue, John.  I'm listening.
 
Tom Hansen
Moscow
-----Original Message-----
From: John Harrell [mailto:johnbharrell@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 2:49 PM
To: Melynda Huskey; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism

Hello Melynda Huskey,
 
I did a complex google search on some of the quotes and found this list, thought you might
be interested in these also. Amazing what shows up when we "google."
 
"Ready, set, GOOGLE!" (attributed to Doug Wilson, on this board, you will have to search for
the exact email and date - but since this isn't a college thesis - who cares! - well, maybe Melynda.)
 
The following came from here: http://cpt_peewee.tripod.com/educat.htm
 
In 1918 Benjamin Kidd published in London a book, The Science of Power. On page 309 he wrote: "Oh you blind leaders who seek to convert the world by labored disputations. Step out of the way or the world must fling you aside. GIVE US THE YOUNG. GIVE US THE YOUNG and we will create a new mind and a new earth in a single generation."
 
Ten years later in 1928 Ross L. Finney, Ph. D., published in the United States A Sociological Philosophy of Education. On page 118 Finney wrote, "Everything depends on passing out the expert opinions of the social scientists to the masses of the people; and the schools, particularly the high schools, are the only adequate agency available for this function."
 
And on page 117 he had just said, "It is the business of teachers to run not merely the school, but the world; and the world will never be truly civilized until they assume that responsibility."

Another interesting quote comes from The Reconstruction of Religion by Charles A. Ellwood, Ph. D., Professor of Sociology, University Of Missouri, 1923, page 177: "Human institutions, sociology shows, are in every case learned adjustments. As such, they can be modified provided we can obtain control of the learning process."

And the American Humanist Association understands the importance of capturing the children for they have written: "In order to capture this nation, one has to totally remove moral and spiritual values and absolutes from the thinking of the child. The child has to think that there is no standard of right and wrong, that truth is relative, and that diversity is the only absolute to be gained."

Cheers!
John Harrell


Melynda Huskey <melyndah@wsu.edu> wrote:
At 10:09 AM 7/1/2003 -0700, John Harrell wrote:

>Wait a second, are you saying the following quotes are not true?

Dear John,

Let's try again. Neither of us has any idea whether those quotations (with
the exception of Hitler as quoted by William Shirer) are accurate, since
neither of us has seen the original sources of those quotations. Unless
you can tell me where Norman Thomas, Patricia Warren [sic--her name is
actually Patricia Nell Warren], or Ross Finny, Socialist Ph.D., said the
things attributed to them, I have no reason to believe that they
did. Certainly your thirdhand reproduction of the quotations does not
attest to their authenticity. Nor do the typos and grammatical errors so
painstakingly reproduced from the original essay.

So in fact, I'm saying that we have no way of knowing if the quotations are real. Whether or not they are true is an imponderable.

Is anybody still wondering if government schools serve a purpose?

Fighting under the banner of pedantry,

Melynda Huskey

_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
------_=_NextPart_001_01C3401F.68C09040-- From melyndah@wsu.edu Tue Jul 1 23:25:28 2003 From: melyndah@wsu.edu (Melynda Huskey) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:25:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism In-Reply-To: <20030701214854.74448.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030701102042.022d0c80@mail.wsu.edu> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030701150304.033d0160@mail.wsu.edu> Getting closer all the time, John. Now we have potential citations for some of those quotations, which is good--although I'm not sure that I'd go to the Arkansas League of the South site for scholarly information, despite their Latin motto. Wonder where an earnest Commie might find the works of Kidd, Elwood, and Finney these days? (Note to self: Amazon wishlist!) It's also interesting to see how widely folks who share these opinions are plagiarizing one another, and how the punctuation and spelling deteriorate across transmission . . . takes me back to my Textual and Analytical Bibliography class in grad school: which is our lemma and which is our stemma, class? Still, let's not dally in Arcadia, but instead ask ourselves a new question: where did Kidd, Finney, Elwood, Hitler, Lenin, Thomas, and their illustrious comrades go wrong? Nearly a century has spun down the ringing grooves of change since first they promised to make us a new world, and still those pesky kids elude us. Teachers of social studies remain the unacknowledged legislators of the world, and our schools are not yet Manchurian Candidate factories . . . dad gum it, what's the hold up? Is somebody slacking? T.C. Pinckney has been waiting for the sky to fall since 1918, and he's not going to hold on much longer. My last post for the day, cross my heart, Melynda Huskey From ddjames@moscow.com Tue Jul 1 23:45:54 2003 From: ddjames@moscow.com (Deacon James) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 15:45:54 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism In-Reply-To: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FB3@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C33FE7.DB8B98A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "I feel that it is definitely safe to assume that articles and quotes taken from that site would be extremely slanted and biased (to put it lightly)," he said, exposing his own extremely slanted and biased position. -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Thomas Hansen Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:24 PM To: 'John Harrell'; Melynda Huskey; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism I visited the link that Mr. Harrell was so kind to provide. It is a Link to the Free Arkansas Web. This webiste is so radically right wing that it makes Ronald Reagan look like a closet liberal. I feel that it is definitely safe to assume that articles and quotes taken from that site would be extremely slanted and biased (to put it lightly). Makes me proud to be a Democrat. Please continue, John. I'm listening. Tom Hansen Moscow ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C33FE7.DB8B98A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"I feel that = it is=20 definitely safe to assume that articles and quotes taken from that site = would be=20 extremely slanted and biased (to put it lightly)," he said, exposing his own extremely slanted = and=20 biased position.

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On = Behalf Of=20 Thomas Hansen
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:24 = PM
To:=20 'John Harrell'; Melynda Huskey; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: = RE:=20 [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With=20 Plagrism

I=20 visited the link that Mr. Harrell was so kind to provide.  It is = a Link=20 to the Free Arkansas Web.  This webiste is so radically right = wing that=20 it makes Ronald Reagan look like a closet liberal.
 
I=20 feel that it is definitely safe to assume that articles and quotes = taken from=20 that site would be extremely slanted and biased (to put it=20 lightly).
 
Makes me proud to be a Democrat.
 
Please continue, John.  I'm = listening.
 
Tom=20 Hansen
Moscow
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C33FE7.DB8B98A0-- From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Tue Jul 1 23:45:01 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 15:45:01 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely Wit h Plagrism Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FB4@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34022.68043DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mr. James - Your reasoning totally lacks logic. Are you saying that people within "main stream" America cannot recognize something or someone that is radical (right or left wing)? Are you applying a concept that I gave up when I was in my puberty that "It takes one to know one."? Please explain. Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: Deacon James [mailto:ddjames@moscow.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:46 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism "I feel that it is definitely safe to assume that articles and quotes taken from that site would be extremely slanted and biased (to put it lightly)," he said, exposing his own extremely slanted and biased position. -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Thomas Hansen Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:24 PM To: 'John Harrell'; Melynda Huskey; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism I visited the link that Mr. Harrell was so kind to provide. It is a Link to the Free Arkansas Web. This webiste is so radically right wing that it makes Ronald Reagan look like a closet liberal. I feel that it is definitely safe to assume that articles and quotes taken from that site would be extremely slanted and biased (to put it lightly). Makes me proud to be a Democrat. Please continue, John. I'm listening. Tom Hansen Moscow ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34022.68043DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Mr. James -
 
Your reasoning totally lacks logic.
 
Are you saying that people within "main stream" America cannot recognize something or someone that is radical (right or left wing)?
 
Are you applying a concept that I gave up when I was in my puberty that "It takes one to know one."?
 
Please explain.
 
Tom Hansen
-----Original Message-----
From: Deacon James [mailto:ddjames@moscow.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:46 PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism

"I feel that it is definitely safe to assume that articles and quotes taken from that site would be extremely slanted and biased (to put it lightly)," he said, exposing his own extremely slanted and biased position.

-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Thomas Hansen
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:24 PM
To: 'John Harrell'; Melynda Huskey; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism

I visited the link that Mr. Harrell was so kind to provide.  It is a Link to the Free Arkansas Web.  This webiste is so radically right wing that it makes Ronald Reagan look like a closet liberal.
 
I feel that it is definitely safe to assume that articles and quotes taken from that site would be extremely slanted and biased (to put it lightly).
 
Makes me proud to be a Democrat.
 
Please continue, John.  I'm listening.
 
Tom Hansen
Moscow
------_=_NextPart_001_01C34022.68043DC0-- From ddjames@moscow.com Wed Jul 2 00:12:27 2003 From: ddjames@moscow.com (Deacon James) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:12:27 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C33FEB.90FB7950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, I would happily demote your status to "only slightly slanted and biased" if you can honestly say that you read the articles before dismissing them out of hand. Deacon -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Hansen [mailto:tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:45 PM To: 'Deacon James' Cc: 'vision2020@moscow.com' Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism Mr. James - Your reasoning totally lacks logic. Are you saying that people within "main stream" America cannot recognize something or someone that is radical (right or left wing)? Are you applying a concept that I gave up when I was in my puberty that "It takes one to know one."? Please explain. Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: Deacon James [mailto:ddjames@moscow.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:46 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism "I feel that it is definitely safe to assume that articles and quotes taken from that site would be extremely slanted and biased (to put it lightly)," he said, exposing his own extremely slanted and biased position. -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Thomas Hansen Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:24 PM To: 'John Harrell'; Melynda Huskey; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism I visited the link that Mr. Harrell was so kind to provide. It is a Link to the Free Arkansas Web. This webiste is so radically right wing that it makes Ronald Reagan look like a closet liberal. I feel that it is definitely safe to assume that articles and quotes taken from that site would be extremely slanted and biased (to put it lightly). Makes me proud to be a Democrat. Please continue, John. I'm listening. Tom Hansen Moscow ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C33FEB.90FB7950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom,
 
I = would happily=20 demote your status to "only slightly slanted and biased" if you can = honestly say=20 that you read the articles before dismissing them out of=20 hand.
 
Deacon

 
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: Thomas Hansen=20 [mailto:tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 = 3:45=20 PM
To: 'Deacon James'
Cc:=20 'vision2020@moscow.com'
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Melynda = Huskey=20 Charges John Harrell Falsely With Plagrism

Mr.=20 James -
 
Your=20 reasoning totally lacks logic.
 
Are=20 you saying that people within "main stream" America cannot recognize = something=20 or someone that is radical (right or left wing)?
 
Are=20 you applying a concept that I gave up when I was in my puberty that = "It takes=20 one to know one."?
 
Please explain.
 
Tom=20 Hansen
-----Original Message-----
From: Deacon James=20 [mailto:ddjames@moscow.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 = 3:46=20 PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: = [Vision2020]=20 Melynda Huskey Charges John Harrell Falsely With=20 Plagrism

"I feel = that it is=20 definitely safe to assume that articles and quotes taken from that = site=20 would be extremely slanted and biased (to put it lightly)," he said, exposing his own extremely = slanted and=20 biased position.

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com = [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf=20 Of Thomas Hansen
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:24=20 PM
To: 'John Harrell'; Melynda Huskey;=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Melynda = Huskey=20 Charges John Harrell Falsely With = Plagrism

I visited the link that Mr. Harrell was so kind to = provide. =20 It is a Link to the Free Arkansas Web.  This webiste is so = radically=20 right wing that it makes Ronald Reagan look like a closet=20 liberal.
 
I feel that it is definitely safe to assume that articles = and=20 quotes taken from that site would be extremely slanted and biased = (to put=20 it lightly).
 
Makes me proud to be a Democrat.
 
Please continue, John.  I'm = listening.
 
Tom Hansen
Moscow
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C33FEB.90FB7950-- From DonaldH675@aol.com Wed Jul 2 00:24:03 2003 From: DonaldH675@aol.com (DonaldH675@aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:24:03 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] A Philosophical Gift from the Southern League Message-ID: --part1_a8.1f4d7eec.2c337213_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Visionaries, I can hardly believe that John Harrell, is referencing and citing crap from the Arkansas League of the South website. That's worse than plagiarism in my book. We know about the League of the South - its been dealt with before in this forum. We know that one of Doug Wilson's closest friends (by his own admission) is Steve Wilkins. Wilkins, a preacher, and untrained historian, is a founding father and current Board member of the main headquarters of the League of the South. It's a shame that Wilkins' pernicious influence appears to have spread to Moscow. A shame, but not surprising, since he is a regular visitor and speaker at Christ Church and its auxiliary businesses. I'll just borrow a quick phrase from that book that gets pounded so regularly on Vision 20/20......"Therefore by their fruits ye will know them." Matthew:6:20 (I was taught to cite my references) Best, Rose Huskey --part1_a8.1f4d7eec.2c337213_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Visionaries,
I can hardly believe that John Harrell, is referencing and citing crap from=20= the Arkansas League of the South website.  That's worse than plagiarism= in my book. We know about the League of the South - its been dealt with bef= ore in this forum.  We know that one of Doug Wilson's closest friends (= by his own admission) is Steve Wilkins.  Wilkins, a preacher, and untra= ined historian, is a founding father and current Board member of the main he= adquarters of the League of the South. 
It's a shame that Wilkins' pernicious influence appears to have spread to Mo= scow.  A shame, but not surprising, since he is a regular visitor and s= peaker at Christ Church and its auxiliary businesses.  I'll just borrow= a quick phrase from that book that gets pounded so regularly on Vision 20/2= 0......"Therefore by their fruits ye will know them."
Matthew:6:20 (I was taught to cite my references)
Best,
Rose Huskey


 --part1_a8.1f4d7eec.2c337213_boundary-- From auntiestablishment@hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 00:43:12 2003 From: auntiestablishment@hotmail.com (Joan Opyr) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:43:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Auntie Establishment charges John Harrell with citing old white racists Message-ID: Why all of this nonsense from The League of the South? Was the White Citizens’ Council web-site down? Or perhaps it’s only operating at half-capacity in memory of Strom Thurmond? (You know, when Dracula died, all of the vampires he’d created died with him. Alas, that doesn’t seem to be the case with Trent Lott, Jesse Helms, and The League of the South.) As Buffy would say, it’s time to eat stake. Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment Serving Idaho's liberal elite since 1993 _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From casandrab@sub.uidaho.edu Wed Jul 2 00:51:40 2003 From: casandrab@sub.uidaho.edu (Casandra Byington) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:51:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] An Invitation Message-ID: <9ED40ACAD972CB40AF23181E18795996CD0F3A@fox.sub.uidaho.edu> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3402B.B7E3F318 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello! =20 Since this is my first post to Vision2020, I thought I would introduce myself. I am a student at the University of Idaho and have watched as important conversations have developed and played out on this community list-serve. From my observant standpoint, I have discussed with some of my peers and colleagues some of the issues and personal opinions given by many members of this forum which brings me to my invitation - we would like to invite everyone to attend a potluck. =20 =20 We will be having a Vision2020 community potluck on July 15 at 6 - 8 p.m. We will provide soda, juice, and water - please bring your own meat to BBQ, your own table service, and a dish to share (salad, dessert, fruit, veggies, etc.). We have reserved the shelter at East City Park. =20 Please consider joining us to continue our conversations and begin developing long lasting friendships that can be an even stronger foundation for a healthy community. You can RSVP to me, Casandra Byington at casandrab@sub.uidaho.edu or Jessica Lipschultz at jessical@sub.uidaho.edu by July 11. Thanks! I hope to see you there! =20 Casandra Byington ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3402B.B7E3F318 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello!

 

Since this is my first post to Vision2020, I thought = I would introduce myself.  I am a student at the University of Idaho and have watched as important conversations have developed and played out on this community list-serve.  From my observant standpoint, I have = discussed with some of my peers and colleagues some of the issues and personal opinions = given by many members of this forum which brings me to my invitation – we = would like to invite everyone to attend a potluck. 

 

We will be having a Vision2020 community potluck on = July 15 at 6 – 8 p.m.  We will provide = soda, juice, and water – please bring your own meat to BBQ, your own table = service, and a dish to share (salad, dessert, fruit, veggies, etc.).  We = have reserved the shelter at East = City Park.

 

Please consider joining us to continue our = conversations and begin developing long lasting friendships that can be an even stronger foundation for a healthy community.  You can RSVP to me, Casandra = Byington at casandrab@sub.uidaho.edu or Jessica Lipschultz at jessical@sub.uidaho.edu by July 11.  Thanks!  I hope to see you = there!

 

Casandra Byington

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3402B.B7E3F318-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 01:30:14 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:30:14 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: Luke et. al. >Mr. Moffet: > > > Again, you adopt an extreme interpretation of how much we all must think >and > > act the same before chaos engulfs us. > >It already has engulfed us. Look at the courts, look at politics. The >world, >the US, Idaho, none of it is peaceful. Controversy wracks us continually. I find Moscow to be a very peaceful place. I would not live here if it was not peaceful. The words "chaos engulfs us" have a strong meaning which does not describe Moscow, so I must disagree with your statement that "It has already engulfed us." > > > > What you are saying is truly frightening in the stereotyping and > > oversimplifications you make of complex issues! If you can't see that >this > > sort of extreme thinking is what leads to wars, then you need religious > > diversity education desperately. > >I never said exclusive thinking doesn't lead to wars. But I can see >something quite clearly; you are intolerant. You don't tolerate anyone who >thinks they are really right; you claim that your view of life and religion >is the only correct one, and that I should adopt your position. > Again you play silly logical games to attempt to paint me as intolerant when I object to extremist views of absolutist religions. I do not deny that it is possible that Christ is our savior and you are correct! I am also open to Hinduism and Islam and Buddhism, etc. But you insist that your interpretation of reality must be the only correct one. If you reply to this post and admit that you might be wrong, and some other religion than yours might be correct, than you will have shown tolerance and humility. But I will only laugh at your silly logical games that paint me as intolerant when I attempt to show open mindedness and tolerance towards all the worlds religions. I do show tolerance toward your religion. But I will object to extremist form of religious belief or secular belief that are intolerant toward other religions or belief systems. Do you understand what I mean? > > > Remember my comments on the rules of basketball differing and being >changed > > yet the game is still played according to rules with people enjoying the > > sport? How can the NBA and the NCAA have differing rules yet both >leagues > > play in an organized manner? They don't wage battles to force one >league >to > > play with the same rules as the other league. Hey, this basketball > > metaphor is your creation, so if the reality of how basketball is played > > does not fit your worldview, you should have picked a different >metaphor. > >Well then, to return to that metaphor, you couldn't stick NBA players and >NCAA players on the same court, tell them to all follow their particular >rules, and have a good game. The result would be truly chaotic. Again, this is ridiculous, like saying the Bible and the Koran should be read and chanted side by side in the same church. No one is suggesting playing the "game" of religion at the same time on the same court with differing rules. So you think I am suggesting your pastor read the Bible while someone else chants the Koran at the same time in the same church? Very funny! > > > So why can't the Islamic and Christian communities each have their own > > religious "league" and play their game, and leave the other league >alone? > >Because we're all on the same playing court in the same game. This is just plain false. Iran can have their Islamic society. I am not in Iran on their "court." Neither are you. > > > stereotyping at work. But there are differences of opinion that are > > debated and argued and a compromise is reached. Democracy is not a >pretty > > and efficient machine, but it is constructed here in the USA in theory >to > > prevent any one group from gaining total control of our government or > > society. > >Actually, this nation was constructed as a republic, not a democracy. Look >at the history. Look at the pledge. "I pledge allegiance to the flag, and >to >the Republic for which it stands..." You are ignoring your completely false statement that Democrats are non-Christian! Will you admit this was wrong? Furthermore, do you not believe in compromise in the US Congress between Democrats and Republicans? This was all I meant by saying we reach compromises in our government between differing political groups, and that principles of Democracy are at work here, that are not just "chaotic," rather than principles based on authoritarian rule, which does not allow citizens to vote on their representatives in government. I was not attempting to get into a political science debate about our form of government being a "Republic" or a "Democracy." You are trying to change the subject, and misrepresenting my argument. > > > > It appears from your comments that you do not respect the principles of > > democracy, you want us to all be singing your tune, and any disagreement >on > > religion or ethics will be met with a hysteria based on a fear of chaos >and > > disorder. > >Well, it seems pretty clear to me that this is indeed what we have in the >world. > > > > BTW, I know very well the world is not all fine and dandy, and those >with > > rigid irrational views of how we all should think and act the same, are >a > > large part of the reason. > >By your own logic, you are one of them. You deny everyone who thinks that >their religion is the right one (which is 99% of the world), and yet you >claim that your understanding is the right one. You see, realistically >there >can >only be one. You're in this with us. Again, more extreme all or nothing, black and white thinking. Many people believe in their religion, but still are open to other faiths and have some doubt about their own faith. They are not as arrogant as you think they all are. And I have much doubt about about my own views of religion and spirituality, so I am not saying my understanding is the right one. I am open to many different ways of viewing these issues, and someone who insists their one way of looking at religion must be the only way, with no doubt at all, is being arrogant. I of course know that extremist thinking is common in the world, even among "secular" belief systems, like Communism and Fascism as forms of government. And I find all absolutist belief systems to be flawed. There are too many variables, and human knowledge is too uncertain, for people to be pompously claiming to have found the ultimate truth about life and human beings, with no significant doubts or competing options remaining. If you can't grasp this simple idea regarding open minded views of religion, if you think there is no other way than to be absolutist in your thinking, you are twisting concepts of probability and truth to suit your agenda. But the many different ways of looking at religion as practiced by people around the world does not fit the procrustean bed of your absolutist thinking. Ted _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From thansen@moscow.com Wed Jul 2 02:30:56 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:30:56 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Auntie Establishment charges John Harrell with citing old white racists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Concerning the Free Arkansas Web and its affiliation with the League of the South, I visited the Southern Poverty Law Center's website and after a couple searches regarding "League of the South", I came up with: http://www.tolerance.org/maps/hate/group.jsp?map_data_type_id=10 At minimum, Free Arkansas is a white separatist group and extremely racist, not exactly the type of people I would want as a neighbor. How about you, Mr. Harrell? Take care, Tom Hansen > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Joan Opyr > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 4:43 PM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: [Vision2020] Auntie Establishment charges John Harrell with > citing old white racists > > > Why all of this nonsense from The League of the South? Was the White > Citizens’ Council web-site down? Or perhaps it’s only operating at > half-capacity in memory of Strom Thurmond? (You know, when Dracula died, > all of the vampires he’d created died with him. Alas, that > doesn’t seem to > be the case with Trent Lott, Jesse Helms, and The League of the South.) > > As Buffy would say, it’s time to eat stake. > > Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment > Serving Idaho's liberal elite since 1993 > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 03:12:26 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 19:12:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Auntie Establishment charges John Harrell with citing old white racists Message-ID:

Mr Hansen,

Why would you think that Mr. Harrell would be opposed to the words of inspirations that white separatists follow? Where you been? He has been quoting these people for like three days now. To him it is David Duke and Pat Buchanan that hold the answers. FDR, JFK, MLK, are the radicals that are trying to control the minds of our children.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold 

>From: "Tom Hansen"
>Reply-To:
>To: "Joan Opyr" ,
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Auntie Establishment charges John Harrell with citing old white racists
>Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:30:56 -0700
>
>Concerning the Free Arkansas Web and its affiliation with the League of the
>South, I visited the Southern Poverty Law Center's website and after a
>couple searches regarding "League of the South", I came up with:
>
>http://www.tolerance.org/maps/hate/group.jsp?map_data_type_id=10
>
>At minimum, Free Arkansas is a white separatist group and extremely racist,
>not exactly the type of people I would want as a neighbor. How about you,
>Mr. Harrell?
>
>Take care,
>
>Tom Hansen
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On
> > Behalf Of Joan Opyr
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 4:43 PM
> > To: vision2020@moscow.com
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Auntie Establishment charges John Harrell with
> > citing old white racists
> >
> >
> > Why all of this nonsense from The League of the South? Was the White
> > Citizens’ Council web-site down? Or perhaps it’s only operating at
> > half-capacity in memory of Strom Thurmond? (You know, when Dracula died,
> > all of the vampires he’d created died with him. Alas, that
> > doesn’t seem to
> > be the case with Trent Lott, Jesse Helms, and The League of the South.)
> >
> > As Buffy would say, it’s time to eat stake.
> >
> > Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
> > Serving Idaho's liberal elite since 1993
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> >
> > _____________________________________________________
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
> >
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* From dale@courtneys.us Wed Jul 2 03:23:23 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:23:23 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <011501c34040$e9ccbee0$c901a8c0@DMCLAPTOP2> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0112_01C34006.3D3CEBD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donovan, Sigh. You really are a work. I have a feeling you only see what you want = to see.=20 See my posts:=20 a.. http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002890.html b.. http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002909.html It was you who attributed that incorrect quote to me = (http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002905.html), but = I never said "E Pluribus Unum" means "In God We Trust". You attributed = that (incorrectly) to me.=20 I think I'm done conversing with you. You have hit the point where you = are removing everything I say from context and then attributing things = to me that I never said. That's the sign of frustration at losing an = argument.=20 So I'm done with you.=20 Dale ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Donovan Arnold=20 To: dale@courtneys.us ; vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 21:02 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Dale, I am really worried about the perception of my intelligence by someone = that thinks "E Pluribus Unum" means "In God We Trust" Thanks! Donovan J Arnold =20 >From: "Dale Courtney"=20 >To:=20 >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education=20 >Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:42:53 -0700=20 >=20 >Wow, talk about rants.=20 >=20 >Hanson is screaming "DIVERSITY" and I comment that our coins have E = Pluribus Unum on them and from that you move to "In God We Trust", that = Dale thinks the words on our money is some kind of national motto, that = I'd be mis-schooling my children if I homeschooled them, that I'm = corrupted by the Religious Right, and that I'm a frightening educator.=20 >=20 >Donovan, please go take a valium and lie down. If you want to be = respected for your arguments, you really must stop ranting and start = making sense. This post does you intellectual injustice -- perhaps.=20 >Best,=20 >Dale=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Donovan Arnold=20 > To: thansen@moscow.com ; dale@courtneys.us ; vision2020@moscow.com=20 > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 16:17=20 > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education=20 >=20 >=20 > Tom,=20 >=20 > Dale was just trying to prove his point about the public educational = system not working when he said "Guess we should change the motto on our = money: E Pluribus Unum". He was implying that it meant "In God We Trust" = and not knowing that it meant .=20 >=20 > He would also know that in 1863, US Treasury Secretary Chase = approved the present motto, "In God We Trust" on the coin to show that = The Union was "on the side of God" against slavery. It was not until the = early 1900's that religious protestants pushed to have them placed back = on the coins. Theodore Roosevelt, President at the time, was opposed to = idea because he believed it was blasphemous to put God's name on = something that was a worldly good. "Out of many, one", is the meaning of = the Latin words "E Pluribus Unum". It was created as part of the = official Seal of the United States. It was created by John Adam and = Thomas Jefferson in 1776. The words "Out of many, one" symbolizes how = the 13 colonies came together as one.=20 >=20 > It was not until 1956, in order to show the communists whose' side = God was on, that President Eisenhower signed into law the official motto = of the United States being "In God We Trust" instead of "E Pluribus = Unum".=20 >=20 > So naturally, Dale being the way he is, believed that if "E Pluribus = Unum" was the National Motto at one time, and "In God We Trust" being = the National Motto later on, he assumed one meant the other.=20 >=20 > This is precisely, why so many Americans are against the idea of = funding Home School. Clearly, if Dale was home schooling his children he = would be teaching them wrong information on such simple and basic = information as I learned in 7th grade.=20 >=20 > It also proves that Dale has been corrupted by the Religious Right = in believing that the forefathers used God in the Constitution and were = for the idea of God being the central theme of all America.=20 >=20 > What is even more frightening is that Dale is an educator.=20 >=20 > Donovan J Arnold=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 = >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------=20 > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online ------=_NextPart_000_0112_01C34006.3D3CEBD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Donovan,
 
Sigh. You really are a work. I have a feeling you only see = what you=20 want to see.
 
See my posts:
  • http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002890.html
  • http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002909.html
It was you who attributed that incorrect quote to me (http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002905.html),=20 but I never said "E Pluribus Unum" means "In God We Trust". = You=20 attributed that (incorrectly) to me.
 
I think I'm done conversing with you. You have hit the point where = you are=20 removing everything I say from context and then attributing things to me = that I=20 never said. That's the sign of frustration at losing an argument. =
 
So I'm done with you.
 
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Donovan Arnold
To: dale@courtneys.us ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 = 21:02
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] = Religious=20 Diversity Education

Dale,

I am really worried about the perception of my intelligence by = someone that=20 thinks "E Pluribus Unum" means "In God We Trust"

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold



 

>From: "Dale Courtney"
>To:
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education =
>Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:42:53 -0700=20
>=20
>Wow, talk about rants.=20
>=20
>Hanson is screaming "DIVERSITY" and I comment that our = coins=20 have E Pluribus Unum on them and from that you move to "In God We = Trust", that=20 Dale thinks the words on our money is some kind of national motto, = that I'd be=20 mis-schooling my children if I homeschooled them, that I'm corrupted = by the=20 Religious Right, and that I'm a frightening educator.=20
>=20
>Donovan, please go take a valium and lie down. If you = want to=20 be respected for your arguments, you really must stop ranting and = start making=20 sense. This post does you intellectual injustice -- perhaps.=20
>Best,=20
>Dale=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Donovan Arnold=20
> To: thansen@moscow.com ; dale@courtneys.us ;=20 vision2020@moscow.com=20
> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 16:17=20
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity = Education=20
>=20
>=20
> Tom,=20
>=20
> Dale was just trying to prove his point about the = public=20 educational system not working when he said "Guess we should change = the motto=20 on our money: E Pluribus Unum". He was implying that it meant "In God = We=20 Trust" and not knowing that it meant .=20
>=20
> He would also know that in 1863, US Treasury Secretary = Chase=20 approved the present motto, "In God We Trust" on the coin to show that = The=20 Union was "on the side of God" against slavery. It was not until the = early=20 1900's that religious protestants pushed to have them placed back on = the=20 coins. Theodore Roosevelt, President at the time, was opposed to idea = because=20 he believed it was blasphemous to put God's name on something that was = a=20 worldly good. "Out of many, one", is the meaning of the Latin words "E = Pluribus Unum". It was created as part of the official Seal of the = United=20 States. It was created by John Adam and Thomas Jefferson in 1776. The = words=20 "Out of many, one" symbolizes how the 13 colonies came together as = one.=20
>=20
> It was not until 1956, in order to show the communists = whose'=20 side God was on, that President Eisenhower signed into law the = official motto=20 of the United States being "In God We Trust" instead of "E Pluribus = Unum".=20
>=20
> So naturally, Dale being the way he is, believed that = if "E=20 Pluribus Unum" was the National Motto at one time, and "In God We = Trust" being=20 the National Motto later on, he assumed one meant the other.=20
>=20
> This is precisely, why so many Americans are against = the idea=20 of funding Home School. Clearly, if Dale was home schooling his = children he=20 would be teaching them wrong information on such simple and basic = information=20 as I learned in 7th grade.=20
>=20
> It also proves that Dale has been corrupted by the = Religious=20 Right in believing that the forefathers used God in the Constitution = and were=20 for the idea of God being the central theme of all America.=20
>=20
> What is even more frightening is that Dale is an = educator.=20
>=20
> Donovan J Arnold=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
=
>----------------------------------------------------------= --------------------=20
> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with = MSN 8.=20

Protect your PC - Click here=20 for McAfee.com VirusScan Online
------=_NextPart_000_0112_01C34006.3D3CEBD0-- From dale@courtneys.us Wed Jul 2 03:25:02 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:25:02 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: Message-ID: <012101c34041$2496cb60$c901a8c0@DMCLAPTOP2> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_011E_01C34006.780571B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donovan, Every Western European Country -- even Sweden and Denmark -- have a = voucher system (with the exception of Italy).=20 Would you care to discuss the educational standards in Europe over the = USA?=20 Best, Dale Second, I am certainly sure that people are tired of my rants of = asking you the same question 57 times and you refusing to answer. I am = getting tired of it too. In case you haven't noticed, the majority = believe in spending huge amounts of money on MSD, they not only support = it, but they vote for it time and time again. If your argument was so = strong, then why do people in the community keep on passing levies to = spend MORE on education? So, I think when it comes down to popular = support of increasing spending on education, and cutting it, as you = suggest, you lose if people caring enough to vote and pass levies by a = supermajority counts as a measuring stick. ------=_NextPart_000_011E_01C34006.780571B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Donovan,
 
Every Western European Country -- even Sweden and Denmark -- = have a=20 voucher system (with the exception of Italy).
 
Would you care to discuss the educational standards in Europe over = the USA?=20
 
Best,
Dale
Second, I am certainly sure that = people are=20 tired of my rants of asking you the same question 57 times and you = refusing to=20 answer. I am getting tired of it too. In case you haven't noticed, the = majority believe in spending huge amounts of money on MSD, they not = only=20 support it, but they vote for it time and time again. If your argument = was so=20 strong, then why do people in the community keep on passing levies to = spend=20 MORE on education? So, I think when it comes down to popular support = of=20 increasing spending on education, and cutting it, as you suggest, you = lose if=20 people caring enough to vote and pass levies by a supermajority counts = as a=20 measuring stick.
------=_NextPart_000_011E_01C34006.780571B0-- From dale@courtneys.us Wed Jul 2 03:52:09 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:52:09 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: Message-ID: <013201c34044$eeaf3740$c901a8c0@DMCLAPTOP2> Ted wrote: > Donovan's questions that Dale does not want to answer seem relevant to > illuminating this debate over public vs private schools. So Dale, why not > provide at least some provisional concise answers? First, see my post: http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-July/002974.html about Europe and vouchers. In the West, only Italy and the USA don't have an educational voucher system. FWIW, the WorldBank's study of the voucher system in 20 countries (http://www.worldbank.org/html/extdr/hnp/hddflash/workp/wp_00064.html) said that there is "no clear support for the negative predictions". If educational freedom would have led to the boogieman that everyone predicts, we should have seen it in spades by now. Educational vouchers have been used for decades in many countries (Australia and Britain, in France, the Low Countries, Germany, Spain and Denmark). Those for educational freedom are trying to push what Europe has practiced for years. Second, just because a service is privatized ("outsourced", to use the current buzzword) doesn't mean that the services offered are lessoned. In fact, when the government has done outsourcing contracts (with which I have intimate familiarity with many), everyone comes out ahead -- the government gets better service and the taxpayers pay less. There is no reason that all of our current educational desires cannot be met -- just not met under the stranglehold of the education unions. Third, competition is *always* a good thing. It raises expectations and results and lowers costs. One of the major problems we have is that the government schools have no competition and no "consequences" for performing poorly. It is always funny to me that those who scream the loudest against educational choice are those who rant about monopolies -- yet they support the worst one in existence! Fourth, choice is a good thing. Parents are much more involved when they have a choice in the education of their children. This has been demonstrated in Cleveland and in Milwaukee. Fifth, the US has this "one size fits all" mentality for education. There is no differentiation between parents' and children's goals and desires. Allowing parents to choose which education best fits their child will be best for both the children, families, and society. I could go on and on, but the bottom line is that a "public end" (education) does not solely or even necessarily have to be met by a "public means" (government teachers). Educational choice (vouchers or tax refunds) allow for Freedom and Justice -- something I'd hope we would all support. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From dale@courtneys.us Wed Jul 2 04:07:45 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:07:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: Message-ID: <018801c34047$1ccedac0$c901a8c0@DMCLAPTOP2> Tom wrote: > Believeing that you entered college immediately after high school, entered > the service immediately after graduation, went to work in the Silicon Valley > immediately after retirement, commenced your career in teaching immediately > upon completion of seven years in Silicon Valley, and completed 17 years in > the teaching profession this morning, this makes you at least 66 years old. Math and logic are clearly not a strength of yours. It must be a strict mistrust of the left to think that everyone is lying. How odd. In psychology, that's called "projection". First, many categories (working in Silicon Valley and being stationed in the military) are not mutually exclusive. Second, only if you are an academy grad does your time in college count (and only after the 20 year point) -- for retirement purposes; otherwise, ROTC college time doesn't count -- unless you were recruited in college by the nuclear submarine force that is in exceptionally high demand; then college time *does* count towards the 20 years and retirement. I'm 43 years old and spent 20 years in the US Navy submarine force. I taught graduate level Electrical Engineering and Computer Systems classes when I wasn't underwater. Best, Dale Courtney From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 04:13:40 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:13:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID:

Really Dale,

Dale wrote, "I think I'm done conversing with you"

When did you actually start conversing with me, you never even answered one question I asked? This has to be done to be qualified as "conversing".

I am like so bummed that a guy can't answer a simple question posed by four people is done with me.

I already admitted that I took what you said out of context, but you are also unclear on your meaning, clearly you did not know the meaning, historical context, or proper usage of "E Pluribus Unum" based on your improper usage of it in a sentence, what am I suppose to think, Mr. Hansen, an educated man, was confused as well.

Yet you, at the same time, don't have the nerve or dignity as a man to admit that you took what I said five times out of context. I made a mistake, and will apologize for it. Do you have courage to do the same Dale? I think not.

But perhaps, now that others are asking you the same question as I was about false claims and accusation you make on MSD, you will find new ways to dodge the question. 

But every time you post something about MSD, I will follow your post with questions on Vision2020 to ask you to show you are misleading.

Perhaps you would find me less aggressive and temperamental toward you if you showed some courtesy and respect of backing your attacks on the Faculty, Staff, students, and parents of MSD. You want everyone to apologize repeatedly to you about mistaking your statements, yet you do not care one iota about the feelings and correct representation of Students, Faculty, and Staff working very hard to improve this community. That is unfair to them.

You would actually find that I am a nice guy in person, but I show no respect for people that attack teachers without evidence, that is my family you are talking about buddy!

Take Care,

Donovan J Arnold


Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. From DonaldH675@aol.com Wed Jul 2 04:59:42 2003 From: DonaldH675@aol.com (DonaldH675@aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 23:59:42 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Rose was wrong Message-ID: <176.1cb5c3ca.2c33b2ae@aol.com> --part1_176.1cb5c3ca.2c33b2ae_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Visionaries, > I have been contacted off line by someone who I believe to be credible.= =A0=20 > That person gave me two examples of children who might require special ed.= =20 > services.=A0 In the interest of honest communication, I wanted to tell you= that=20 > Logos has therefore admitted children who might require special services.= =A0 It is=20 > one of the few times that I am glad that I was wrong about Logos. > Best, > Rose Huskey >=20 --part1_176.1cb5c3ca.2c33b2ae_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Visionaries,
I have been contacted off line by someone who I believe to be credible.=A0 T= hat person gave me two examples of children who might require special ed. se= rvices.=A0 In the interest of honest communication, I wanted to tell you tha= t Logos has therefore admitted children who might require special services.= =A0 It is one of the few times that I am glad that I was wrong about Logos.<= BR> Best,
Rose Huskey

 --part1_176.1cb5c3ca.2c33b2ae_boundary-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 06:29:37 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:29:37 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID: Dale et. al More fuel for the fire: http://www.religioustolerance.org/sch_vou.htm This is a link to a site discussing vouchers, with an ample list of references. Voucher programs in the USA have been rejected in the courts in several states after they were found to be unconstitutional, sometimes over principles of separation of church and state. In some states voters voted down school voucher programs. In California the possibility of a Wiccan school for children funded by vouchers was posed as a reason to vote them down. This site offers quite a bit of factual info on the school voucher issue here in the USA. So I assume you do not know of a private school for grades K-12 that offers all the programs and services that MSD offers for less money? You did not answer this question. You stated that you are not really advocating lessening of educational services, but outsourcing them. I take it from this reply that you think programs and services at MSD could be out-sourced program by program, service by service, saving money and offering more choice and quality, without having to be offered by a private school that does it all? Or do you think a variety of private schools in Moscow could in sum offer what MSD does? Therefore, we could pull the plug on MSD? But if you assume MSD should exist in some form, I assume you think that MSD should start outsourcing certain programs or services? So the question remains, what programs or services would you start outsourcing at MSD, and maintain the same quality and service, or better, that MSD offers? Would you have a private company, for example, coach and manage the Moscow Bear Football and Basketball programs? We could have Nike run them maybe? Well, this example may not be fair, because it sounds disloyal to the idea of local community sporting spirit, right? Well, maybe it could work. Corporate sponsors help USA Olympians. And in your third point, when you state the "government" schools have no competition, I wonder how accurate this is, when there are local private religious schools and the public charter school (It is a public school, right? I was surprised when I found this out, unless I was misinformed) right here in Moscow that offer competition. My sister attended St. Mary's. In fact, do not the religious private schools get to operate with a tax exempt status? And of course home schooling is a form of competition. Teaching quality might also be improved in the public schools by making pay increases and tenure dependent more on performance. Your slam against the public schools awarding mediocrity is just a suggestion for reform, not a plea to abandon the public school system, it seems to me. Again, in your fourth point, you talk about choice being offered in education, and it is being offered via educational options both private and public (Moscow's Charter School), here in Moscow. Moscow High also has different programs for students based on special needs, you must be aware. And home schooling is possible. On your fourth point, there is no reason why parents cannot be involved much more in the education of their children in public schools, so this argument does not disprove the value of the public school system, but only indicates how it could be improved. In your fifth point, you claim a "one size fits all" approach is prevalent in public schools, but you must know, I repeat again, that Moscow High School has different programs for students with special needs, like an "alternative" program for students who have difficulty adjusting to the mainstream school programs. Or at least at one time they did. Are you suggesting abandoning educational standards set by the government for children, to allow parents to wholly control a child's education? So if a parent wants to teach their child to learn to be a carpenter or a plumber, for example, and nothing more, that would be OK? If we adopt your program of eliminating government tax supported schools, how will the private schools be monitored to prevent abuses, or do you think they should be? Or do I have your position wrong, and you think some government pubic tax supported schools should still exist, but they need a lot of "outsourcing" to save money and improve quality, etc. Obviously you do not think the teacher unions are a great idea for public education. But could this system be reformed? You must be aware that when private schools accept vouchers it opens the door to government regulation of private schools, which is something many private schools do not want, so they oppose vouchers! Ted >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply >Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:52:09 -0700 > >Ted wrote: > > > Donovan's questions that Dale does not want to answer seem relevant to > > illuminating this debate over public vs private schools. So Dale, why >not > > provide at least some provisional concise answers? > >First, see my post: >http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-July/002974.html about >Europe and vouchers. In the West, only Italy and the USA don't have an >educational voucher system. FWIW, the WorldBank's study of the voucher >system in 20 countries >(http://www.worldbank.org/html/extdr/hnp/hddflash/workp/wp_00064.html) said >that there is "no clear support for the negative predictions". If >educational freedom would have led to the boogieman that everyone predicts, >we should have seen it in spades by now. Educational vouchers have been >used >for decades in many countries (Australia and Britain, in France, the Low >Countries, Germany, Spain and Denmark). Those for educational freedom are >trying to push what Europe has practiced for years. > >Second, just because a service is privatized ("outsourced", to use the >current buzzword) doesn't mean that the services offered are lessoned. In >fact, when the government has done outsourcing contracts (with which I have >intimate familiarity with many), everyone comes out ahead -- the government >gets better service and the taxpayers pay less. There is no reason that all >of our current educational desires cannot be met -- just not met under the >stranglehold of the education unions. > >Third, competition is *always* a good thing. It raises expectations and >results and lowers costs. One of the major problems we have is that the >government schools have no competition and no "consequences" for performing >poorly. It is always funny to me that those who scream the loudest against >educational choice are those who rant about monopolies -- yet they support >the worst one in existence! > >Fourth, choice is a good thing. Parents are much more involved when they >have a choice in the education of their children. This has been >demonstrated >in Cleveland and in Milwaukee. > >Fifth, the US has this "one size fits all" mentality for education. There >is >no differentiation between parents' and children's goals and desires. >Allowing parents to choose which education best fits their child will be >best for both the children, families, and society. > >I could go on and on, but the bottom line is that a "public end" >(education) >does not solely or even necessarily have to be met by a "public means" >(government teachers). Educational choice (vouchers or tax refunds) allow >for Freedom and Justice -- something I'd hope we would all support. > >Best, >Dale Courtney >Moscow, Idaho > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 06:44:27 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 22:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Old White Men And Others That Have Been Called Racist Message-ID: <20030702054427.84762.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> Old White Men And Others That Have Been Called Racist And in a search for something else, I came across this and found it interesting. See the link to the complete article, which includes other links: http://www.vdare.com/fulford/southern_poverty_center.htm Excerpt: Here’s a short list of people and organizations who’ve been called racist, in spite of flaming liberalism: 1.Rudy Giuliani, the liberal Republican Mayor of New York. There’s a whole site devoted to this. 2.Terry McCauliffe, Democratic National Committee chairthing. (He said “colored people” when he should have said “people of color”. But the NAACP forgave him.) 3.Bill Clinton, by Kimberley Wilson, an African-American woman, and also by Christopher Hitchens. 4.Nadine Gordimer, the anti-apartheid South African novelist. 5.Art Spiegelman, the cartoonist, accusing both himself and his four and a half year old son. 6.Hillary Clinton. She, like Giuliani, supported the Clinton Administration's “putatively tough and essentially racist initiatives on criminal justice.” 7.Frosty the Snowman. I wish I could make these things up; I’d make a lot of money selling them to comedians. 8.Abraham Lincoln. 9.The entire YMCA. 10.The USDA. They recommend two servings of milk a day, and “lactose intolerance” is mostly a non-white problem. 11.And one non-European racist: Mahatma Gandhi. So it’s not surprising that Thomas Jefferson is called a racist, and so are black conservatives, the whole Republican Party, anyone to the right of Nelson Rockefeller, (who was also called a racist while he was alive), libertarians like L. Neil Smith, the entire Catholic Church, and of course, the United States of America. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 06:45:54 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 22:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Those Darn White Separatists? Who Are They? Message-ID: <20030702054554.19748.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> {Melynda, please help me to locate where these came from - thank you. "Ready, Set, GOOGLE" - attributed to Doug Wilson, somewhere in this forum, Melynda can find it I am sure.} So, do you honor Abraham Lincoln, Ulysses S. Grant, and the North in general? Because most northerners did not view the African-American as equals. How about todays Congressman? Some northern Congressman (D) even today do not view the African-American as equal. For example, 1) Abraham Lincoln (R) was a "white separatist": "What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races." - Speech at Springfield, Ill, July 17, 1858 2) Abraham Lincoln (R) believed "the negro" to be less than equal: "I have said that I do not understand the Declaration to mean that all men were created equal in all respects. They are not our equal in color;" - Speech at Springfield, Ill, July 17, 1858 3) Abraham Lincoln (R), again the "white separatist", forbids intermarrying, and does not want "equality" for "negroes": "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races--that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." - Speech at Cincinnati, Ohio, September 17, 1859 4) Abraham Lincoln (R), wasn't starting a war over slavery, many times he said things similar to the following: "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery..." - Statement made in 1862, to Horace Greeley 5) Ulysses S. Grant was a slave owner 6) Sen. Robert R. Byrd (D), current Senator for W. VA, was a KKK member The Democrats recently named a building after him; see what Byrd had to say: "[he would] never submit to fight beneath that banner [the American flag] with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds." 7)..and Byrd is still allowed to represent this country? especially the democrats?, how about this list of federal projects named after Byrd, not bad for a democrat former KKK member: "Some items funded by taxpayers – but still somehow named after "Robert C. Byrd" – are: The Robert C. Byrd Highway; the Robert C. Byrd Locks and Dam; the Robert C. Byrd Institute; the Robert C. Byrd Life Long Learning Center; the Robert C. Byrd Honors Scholarship Program; the Robert C. Byrd Green Bank Telescope; the Robert C. Byrd Institute for Advanced Flexible Manufacturing; the Robert C. Byrd Federal Courthouse; the Robert C. Byrd Health Sciences Center; the Robert C. Byrd Academic and Technology Center; the Robert C. Byrd United Technical Center; the Robert C. Byrd Federal Building; the Robert C. Byrd Drive; the Robert C. Byrd Hilltop Office Complex; the Robert C. Byrd Library; the Robert C. Byrd Learning Resource Center; the Robert C. Byrd Rural Health Center...... 8) Sen. Robert R. Byrd (D), current Senator for W. VA, former KKK member, uses N* word; he used the phrase in an interview on “Fox News Sunday,” March 2, 2003. Cheers! John Harrell __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 07:02:20 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:02:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID:

Yes Dale,

Even though this is not addressing the question asked, I would love to discuss the differences between the European and United States educational system. Including the funding aspects.

I am not denying that vouchers can't work under any circumstances. They can, if you give the Federal Government more money, then use that money to give to parents to choose what school they want to send their children to as European governments do.

All European countries use a parliamentary system of government and all power rests there, in the central government. In the United States most of the power regarding education is decentralized, or rests within the states mostly, some in the Federal Government, and a little in the Courts.

If you wish to give the Federal Government as big of a chunk of your check as Europeans do I am sure we can provide a more superior educational system then we have now in the States. The average European gives about 50-75% of their check to the Federal Government. The average US Citizen gives about 30% to the Federal Government and about 15-25% to the State and local governments depending on what state, city, and county they reside in.

If you would like to give an additional 10% of your check to the Federal Government for the purposes of providing vouchers for parents to attend the school of their choice I would be all for it!

However, I doubt you would like to pay more then you are now. Nor does this prove that you can provide better education then now for less money. Nor does it answer the question we are asking. Nor does it address the fact that Europe has almost 0% growth rate, meaning, they have less children per adult, meaning they have more workers and less children to pay for making it easier to keep up with increasing costs of educating one child.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

>From: "Dale Courtney"
>To:
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
>Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:25:02 -0700
>
>Donovan,
>
>Every Western European Country -- even Sweden and Denmark -- have a voucher system (with the exception of Italy).
>
>Would you care to discuss the educational standards in Europe over the USA?
>
>Best,
>Dale
> Second, I am certainly sure that people are tired of my rants of asking you the same question 57 times and you refusing to answer. I am getting tired of it too. In case you haven't noticed, the majority believe in spending huge amounts of money on MSD, they not only support it, but they vote for it time and time again. If your argument was so strong, then why do people in the community keep on passing levies to spend MORE on education? So, I think when it comes down to popular support of increasing spending on education, and cutting it, as you suggest, you lose if people caring enough to vote and pass levies by a supermajority counts as a measuring stick.

Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From thansen@moscow.com Wed Jul 2 13:38:23 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 05:38:23 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply In-Reply-To: <018801c34047$1ccedac0$c901a8c0@DMCLAPTOP2> Message-ID: Mr. Courtney - I did not state that you needed a degree to retire from the service as an officer. I said: "24 years (bare minimum to have retired from the service as an officer, allowing for the minimum of 4 years to get your degree so that you can ENTER the service as an officer)" You even quoted it correctly. The bottom line, Mr. Courtney, is that you are required to have graduated from college with a degree before you ENTER the service as a commissioned officer. This has now been mentioned to you three times (plus once where you quoted me). Assuming that you did not attend college while you were attending high school and allowing for dual concurrent assignments as a submariner and instructor, (something which is extremely doubtful), this makes you 42. Then comes the 7 years at the Silicon Valley. You claim that at the time you were working inland in the Silicon Valley in California, you were also on active duty as a submariner. Come on, Mr. Courtney, I wasn't born yesterday. I am 50 years old, retired from the Army, and have friends that retired from the Navy (a couple were submariners). Didn't you think that I would conduct a little research before I made any accusations? Take care, Tom Hansen SFC, US Army (Retired) UI '96 > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Dale Courtney > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 8:08 PM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply > > > Tom wrote: > > > Believeing that you entered college immediately after high > school, entered > > the service immediately after graduation, went to work in the Silicon > Valley > > immediately after retirement, commenced your career in teaching > immediately > > upon completion of seven years in Silicon Valley, and completed 17 years > in > > the teaching profession this morning, this makes you at least 66 years > old. > > Math and logic are clearly not a strength of yours. > > It must be a strict mistrust of the left to think that everyone is lying. > How odd. In psychology, that's called "projection". > > First, many categories (working in Silicon Valley and being > stationed in the > military) are not mutually exclusive. Second, only if you are an academy > grad does your time in college count (and only after the 20 year > point) -- > for retirement purposes; otherwise, ROTC college time doesn't count -- > unless you were recruited in college by the nuclear submarine > force that is > in exceptionally high demand; then college time *does* count > towards the 20 > years and retirement. > > I'm 43 years old and spent 20 years in the US Navy submarine > force. I taught > graduate level Electrical Engineering and Computer Systems classes when I > wasn't underwater. > > Best, > Dale Courtney > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From thansen@moscow.com Wed Jul 2 13:58:59 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 05:58:59 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Those Darn White Separatists? Who Are They? In-Reply-To: <20030702054554.19748.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mr. Harrell - And the purpose of the Emancipation Proclamation was . . . ? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From ddouglas@pacsim.com Wed Jul 2 15:21:24 2003 From: ddouglas@pacsim.com (David Douglas) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 10:21:24 -0400 Subject: [Vision2020] Those Darn White Separatists? Who Are They? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c340a5$38d4af70$e1e10e0a@LATITUDECPT5> Visionaries: Tom Hansen asks: "And the purpose of the Emancipation Proclamation was . . . ?" Answer: ...to proclaim that "....all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free;.." --at least according to the Source Document as found here ( http://www.nps.gov/ncro/anti/emancipation.html ) at a National Park Service website. In other words it did not free all slaves. The same page goes on to comment regarding Lincoln's original position: "Lincoln had been reluctant to come to this position [that the war was a fight to bring about an end to slavery, from the previous paragraph--DDD]. A believer in white supremacy, he initially viewed the war only in terms of preserving the Union. " Full document and commentary (to get the complete context of my extracted quote, lest I did not do the context justice) can be found on the web page above. Regards, David Douglas From jon@n-k-ins.com Wed Jul 2 16:33:40 2003 From: jon@n-k-ins.com (Jon Kimberling) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:33:40 -0700 Subject: Fw: FW: [Vision2020] More New Multi-family Units Message-ID: <008501c340af$5039de10$0da8a8c0@JON> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0082_01C34074.A39857C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pam- I obtained the following information from the City. If you have = further questions, I would suggest you start with Gary Riedner who can = direct you to the most appropriate person to help. Jon Kimberling =20 Jon: In response to your mail of yesterday regarding Pam Peterson's posting = to Vision20/20, here is Tom's explanation. I would also note that the = estimate of 1500 gallons comes from Dean Weyen, who indicated that he = based his estimate on the fact that the well produces about 1000 = gals/minute. Gary -----Original Message----- From: Tom Scallorn=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 12:56 AM To: Gary Riedner Subject: Re: FW: [Vision2020] More New Multi-family Units All wells, of the size used in Moscow, must have a pump control valve = that discharges the water from the pump during startup and shut down of = the pump. Moscow operates its wells, in this regard much the same way as = UI, WSU and the City of Pullman. The water pressure (water hammer) that = is caused by not having theses vales in place will split the water main = or do serious damage to customer piping. The air that is discharged on = startup, if not released through these vales would be discharged in to = the distribution system and sent to the customer tap and create = problems. In Moscow, each summer, we close valves on the Northwest Tank and take = the tank out of service. This action allows us to gain more storage in = the Vista tank and also reduces by half the number of start and stop = cycles. The water, when discharged does normally go down the storm drain. The = water is high volume for 15 to 60 seconds, depending on the size of the = well and therefore hard to put to beneficial use. We operate all of our = pump control valves on a minimum setting, even at the risk of splitting = fire sprinkler piping in the Palouse Mall. Specifically, Well 8. We in the past had discharged the water back into = the aquifer, via a permitted injection well. The injection well became = inoperative, that is, it would not take the water volume and over = flowed. We contacted the individual that farmers (probably not property = owner) the area below the discharge of Well 8 and received permission to = discharge the water directly to the drainage that runs through the area. = As far as I know this permission does not exist in written form. The = water from Well 8 has been discharged in one of these two manners, since = the well was drilled in 1964 and is a requirement of DEQ. If you need more information please let me know. From: To: Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 10:54 PM Subject: [Vision2020] More New Multi-family Units Hi, I'm feeling perplexed, not about the heavy stuff like the meaning of life...but about life in Moscow. I can not understand why a major property owner can be getting a subdivision plat for 20 new 12plexes run through City Hill without the Water Department taking care of run off of fresh water from Well #8 in the NW corner of Moscow. You see every time that city well kicks on it pumps up about 1500 gallons of pure fresh drinking water and then lets it drain down a ravine into a storm drain below. The course that the 10,000 year old water follows is exactly where Robert Peterson Jr. of Lewiston is having an extension of Baker Street built as we speak. He's just going to provide a culvert for the water as the City lets it slip through unused!! Another weird thing about this is that Peterson's subdivision plan is still only 1/2 way through the preliminary stage of getting the City Council's OK! So why is he being allowed to bury the fresh drinking water before he even has on ok to go ahead with his unnessary high density subdivision!? If anyone knows the public's input isn't needed by the City please let me know! If you want to let the Coucil know how you feel; they'll be a hearing on this plan on Monday night July 7 in the Council Chambers at 7:00. However, the P and Z hearing started about 1.5 hours after it was advertised to start and some left before the hearing even started! (Lawyers: Is it legal to start a hearing at the time it was supposed to be without even mentioning it to those present or for the record?) Pam Peterson _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0082_01C34074.A39857C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pam- I obtained the following = information from the=20 City. If you have further questions, I would suggest you start with Gary = Riedner=20 who can direct you to the most appropriate person to help.
 
Jon Kimberling
 
 
 
Jon:
 
In=20 response to your mail of yesterday regarding Pam Peterson's posting to=20 Vision20/20, here is Tom's explanation. I would also note that the = estimate of=20 1500 gallons comes from Dean Weyen, who indicated that he based his = estimate on=20 the fact that the well produces about 1000 = gals/minute.
 
Gary
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Scallorn =
Sent:=20 Tuesday, July 01, 2003 12:56 AM
To: Gary = Riedner
Subject:=20 Re: FW: [Vision2020] More New Multi-family Units

All = wells,=20 of the size used in Moscow, must have a pump control valve that = discharges the=20 water from the pump during startup and shut down of the pump. Moscow = operates=20 its wells, in this regard much the same way as UI, WSU and the City of = Pullman.=20 The water pressure (water hammer) that is caused by not having theses = vales in=20 place will split the water main or do serious damage to customer piping. = The air=20 that is discharged on startup, if not released through these vales would = be=20 discharged in to the distribution system and sent to the customer tap = and create=20 problems.

In Moscow, each summer, we close valves on the = Northwest Tank=20 and take the tank out of service. This action allows us to gain more = storage in=20 the Vista tank and also reduces by half the number of start and stop=20 cycles.

The water, when discharged does normally go down the = storm drain.=20 The water is high volume for 15 to 60 seconds, depending on the size of = the well=20 and therefore hard to put to beneficial use. We operate all of our pump = control=20 valves on a minimum setting, even at the risk of splitting fire = sprinkler piping=20 in the Palouse Mall.

Specifically, Well 8. We in the past had = discharged=20 the water back into the aquifer, via a permitted injection well. The = injection=20 well became inoperative, that is, it would not take the water volume and = over=20 flowed. We contacted the individual that farmers (probably not property = owner)=20 the area below the discharge of Well 8 and received permission to = discharge the=20 water directly to the drainage that runs through the area. As far as I = know this=20 permission does not exist in written form. The water from Well 8 has = been=20 discharged in one of these two manners, since the well was drilled in = 1964 and=20 is a requirement of DEQ.

If you need more information please let = me=20 know.

From: <peterson@moscow.com>
To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 10:54 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] More New Multi-family Units


  
Hi,
I'm feeling perplexed, not about the heavy stuff like the meaning of
life...but about life in Moscow.  I can not understand why a major
property owner can be getting a subdivision plat for 20 new 12plexes
run through City Hill without the Water Department taking care of run
off of fresh water from Well #8 in the NW corner of Moscow.  You
see every time that city well kicks on it pumps up about 1500 gallons
of pure fresh drinking water and then lets it drain down a ravine into
a storm drain below.  The course that the 10,000 year old water
follows is exactly where Robert Peterson Jr. of Lewiston is having an
extension of Baker Street built as we speak.  He's just going to
provide a culvert for the water as the City lets it slip through
    
unused!!
  
Another weird thing about =
this is that Peterson's subdivision plan is
still only 1/2 way through the preliminary stage of getting the City
Council's OK!  So why is he being allowed to bury the fresh drinking
water before he even has on ok to go ahead with his unnessary high
density subdivision!?  If anyone knows the public's input isn't needed
by the City please let me know!  If you want to let the Coucil know
how you feel; they'll be a hearing on this plan on Monday night July 7
in the Council Chambers at 7:00.  However, the P and Z hearing
started about 1.5 hours after it was advertised to start and some left
before the hearing even started!  (Lawyers: Is it legal to start a
hearing at the time it was supposed to be without even mentioning it
to those present or for the record?)
Pam Peterson


_____________________________________________________
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF

------=_NextPart_000_0082_01C34074.A39857C0-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 16:51:55 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] regarding the potluck Message-ID: <20030702155155.4041.qmail@web20513.mail.yahoo.com> --0-701790772-1057161115=:2957 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If you are sponsoring the potluck on behalf of the University of Idaho, then you will be held legally accountable for what is said at that event, which unless approved by someone like Bill London (forum moderator), is not a Vision2020-sponsored event. In addition, I would guess that you know who I am, and I think that the level of corruption extant at the University of Idaho at this time should probably have given people like yourself enough to do this summer rather than meddling in local political affairs any more than you already do. Your post tries to come across as innocent, but you mention nothing about which particular issues you have paid attention to on the forum. BOB HOOVER STOLE MILLIONS FROM THE STATE OF IDAHO, AND HAS ALL BUT BANKRUPTED THE FUTURE OF LATAH COUNTY. Maybe you guys over at the university should take everyone OUT for dinner, instead of asking them to bring their own. After all, the University of Idaho has been "stealing from the national dinner table" for at least 30 years now. I, of course, couldn't attend if I wanted to, given the things I've posted on this overrated town bulletin board. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (working for John Harrell) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-701790772-1057161115=:2957 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
If you are sponsoring the potluck on behalf of the University of Idaho, then you will be held legally accountable for what is said at that event, which unless approved by someone like Bill London (forum moderator), is not a Vision2020-sponsored event.
 
In addition, I would guess that you know who I am, and I think that the level of corruption extant at the University of Idaho at this time should probably have given people like yourself enough to do this summer rather than meddling in local political affairs any more than you already do. 
 
Your post tries to come across as innocent, but you mention nothing about which particular issues you have paid attention to on the forum.
 
BOB HOOVER STOLE MILLIONS FROM THE STATE OF IDAHO, AND HAS ALL BUT BANKRUPTED THE FUTURE OF LATAH COUNTY.  Maybe you guys over at the university should take everyone OUT for dinner, instead of asking them to bring their own.  After all, the University of Idaho has been "stealing from the national dinner table" for at least 30 years now.  I, of course, couldn't attend if I wanted to, given the things I've posted on this overrated town bulletin board.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(working for John Harrell)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-701790772-1057161115=:2957-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 17:21:02 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] A Very Special Thank You To John Harrell Message-ID: <20030702162102.18716.qmail@web20503.mail.yahoo.com> --0-45540428-1057162862=:17505 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, John: I wanted to thank you for purchasing me a $179 or so bus ticket to the East Coast, and for giving me $100 cash for my trip. I'm glad that you think the work I do online and wherever I am is worthy of your direct sponsorship. I understand that you are being challenged on the forum as a racist: I think that a drunkard would be a more accurate description of what you are. I want you to know that I will not squander this money, and that I have already purchased a ticket back to Moscow, Idaho, so that I can continue doing what I do so well: Act as a catalyst for reform and redirection. In the meantime, you can rest assured that I will continue knocking down the reputation of people like J. Steven Wilkins and your idol, Doug Wilson, even as I am traveling and learning how other communities in America deal with idiots like yourself. All the best! In Christ, Douglas Stambler (currently in St. Paul, MN) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-45540428-1057162862=:17505 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hi, John:
 
I wanted to thank you for purchasing me a $179 or so bus ticket to the East Coast, and for giving me $100 cash for my trip.  I'm glad that you think the work I do online and wherever I am is worthy of your direct sponsorship.
 
I understand that you are being challenged on the forum as a racist: I think that a drunkard would be a more accurate description of what you are.  I want you to know that I will not squander this money, and that I have already purchased a ticket back to Moscow, Idaho, so that I can continue doing what I do so well: Act as a catalyst for reform and redirection.
 
In the meantime, you can rest assured that I will continue knocking down the reputation of people like J. Steven Wilkins and your idol, Doug Wilson, even as I am traveling and learning how other communities in America deal with idiots like yourself.
 
All the best!
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(currently in St. Paul, MN)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-45540428-1057162862=:17505-- From johnmoss@moscow.com Wed Jul 2 17:44:20 2003 From: johnmoss@moscow.com (John Moss) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:44:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] A Very Special Thank You To John Harrell References: <20030702162102.18716.qmail@web20503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001c340b9$2f571730$0f188dcf@moonfish> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C3407E.82DCC7F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Visionaries: A trace of the originating IPs on Douglas Stambler's last e-mails = verifies that he is in fact in Minnesota. He posted the last two = e-mails from what would appear to be a computer lab at Metropolitan = State University. While John Harrell poked fun at my sarcastic fireworks levy proposal, = from what I've heard, I believe it is true that John Harrell helped = Douglas Stambler with purchasing a ticket. So for those who want to accuse John Harrell of being a racist, = discriminatory bigot, please take a moment to first honor the man who = actually cared enough about a disfortunate man to help him personally = and financially. =20 For some, there is "affirmative action," and for others, there is = affirmative action. Thank you, John Moss ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Douglas Stambler=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 9:21 AM Subject: [Vision2020] A Very Special Thank You To John Harrell Hi, John: I wanted to thank you for purchasing me a $179 or so bus ticket to the = East Coast, and for giving me $100 cash for my trip. I'm glad that you = think the work I do online and wherever I am is worthy of your direct = sponsorship. I understand that you are being challenged on the forum as a racist: I = think that a drunkard would be a more accurate description of what you = are. I want you to know that I will not squander this money, and that I = have already purchased a ticket back to Moscow, Idaho, so that I can = continue doing what I do so well: Act as a catalyst for reform and = redirection. In the meantime, you can rest assured that I will continue knocking = down the reputation of people like J. Steven Wilkins and your idol, Doug = Wilson, even as I am traveling and learning how other communities in = America deal with idiots like yourself. All the best! In Christ, Douglas Stambler (currently in St. Paul, MN) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C3407E.82DCC7F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Visionaries:
 
A trace of the originating IPs on = Douglas=20 Stambler's last e-mails verifies that he is in fact in Minnesota.  = He=20 posted the last two e-mails from what would appear to be a computer lab = at=20 Metropolitan State University.
 
While John Harrell poked fun at my = sarcastic=20 fireworks levy proposal, from what I've heard, I believe it is true that = John=20 Harrell helped Douglas Stambler with purchasing a ticket.
 
So for those who want to accuse John = Harrell of=20 being a racist, discriminatory bigot, please take a moment to first = honor=20 the man who actually cared enough about a disfortunate man to help = him=20 personally and financially. 
 
For some, there is "affirmative = action,"=20 and for others, there is affirmative action.
 
Thank you,
 
John Moss
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Douglas Stambler
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 = 9:21=20 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] A Very = Special=20 Thank You To John Harrell

Hi, John:
 
I wanted to thank you for purchasing me a $179 or so bus ticket = to the=20 East Coast, and for giving me $100 cash for my trip.  I'm glad = that you=20 think the work I do online and wherever I am is worthy of your direct=20 sponsorship.
 
I understand that you are being challenged on the forum as a = racist: I=20 think that a drunkard would be a more accurate description of what you = are.  I want you to know that I will not squander this money, and = that I=20 have already purchased a ticket back to Moscow, Idaho, so that I can = continue=20 doing what I do so well: Act as a catalyst for reform and = redirection.
 
In the meantime, you can rest assured that I will continue = knocking down=20 the reputation of people like J. Steven Wilkins and your idol, Doug = Wilson,=20 even as I am traveling and learning how other communities in America = deal with=20 idiots like yourself.
 
All the best!
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(currently in St. Paul, MN)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC=20 Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C3407E.82DCC7F0-- From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 18:04:42 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 10:04:42 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Mr. Stambler's latest exploits Message-ID: I've tried to stick to an "it's best to ignore Doug Stambler's postings than respond to them" approach. But his two postings this morning, in a curious way, dovetail. John Harrell and I are at loggerheads on just about any topic ever discussed on this listserve. But the personal attack this morning is totally unwarranted and completely out of bounds, just as Mr. Stambler's atrocious comments about Doug Wilson, with whom I have had occasional, uh, disagreements also. As for Miss Byington, if she is guilty of anything, it's innocent idealism. She feels the potluck dinner could, just possibly, bring the disparate factions that write to Vision 2020 together in a common physical area. And from this, I believe Miss Byington thinks that maybe, just maybe, people with opposing viewpoints could learn to be friendly, if not friends, with others. A laudable idea. Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From warrenhoskins@netscape.net Wed Jul 2 18:37:06 2003 From: warrenhoskins@netscape.net (Warren Hoskins) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 13:37:06 -0400 Subject: [Vision2020] RE: Those Darn White Separatists? Who Are They? Message-ID: <3058017B.1BF88D49.30998ADA@netscape.net> Senator Byrd, having been the target of much of this lately, is far from alone, of course. Most of the others switched to the Republic Party after Reagan, though ;-) For instance, the late lamented Senator Strom Thurmond leaps to mind. Former Democrat, Governor of SC who ran for US President as a third party candidate on a platform of segregation (perhaps because the US government had made defense industries integrate during WWII under Democratic leadership), eventual cause of the early retirement of Trent Lott--partly because Thurmond was still unrepentant of being a segregationist. Of course he was contradictory: Per SLATE he was one of the first southern Senators to have a black aide, and he also, per SLATE, fathered a daughter in 1925 with an African American house servant: http://slate.msn.com/default.aspx?id=2085087 None of this stopped SC from naming many, many things after him: "Throughout South Carolina, Thurmond's name adorns high schools, federal courthouses and even a lake on the western edge of the state." http://www.savannahnow.com/features/stromthurmond/hometown.shtml Attacks on Senator Byrd, though, are highly suspect right now. First, does anyone question that he repented long ago of his KKK membership and his racist statements? Second, look how these criticisms sprang up right after he spoke out critically of pResident Bush and the prememptive assault on Iraq: http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20030618.html Peace, Warren -- Warren Hoskins __________________________________________________________________ McAfee VirusScan Online from the Netscape Network. Comprehensive protection for your entire computer. Get your free trial today! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/computing/mcafee/index.jsp?promo=393397 Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 free of charge. Download Now! http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 From dougwils@moscow.com Wed Jul 2 19:15:26 2003 From: dougwils@moscow.com (Douglas) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:15:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Racism Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030702110245.01ccf0e8@mail.moscow.com> Dear visionaries, In our discussions, we have to beware of racism inflation. In contemporary public discourse, such charges are too readily leveled as the all-purpose trump card. Why don't we agree to reserve it for those who believe and affirm that one race is (racially) superior to another? With this more precise definition, it would even be possible for the sin of racial animosity to occur without the (distinct) sin of racism. The world is a complicated place, and not made out of cardboard. For example, is it possible to acknowledge the existence of malicious egalitarians and benevolent racists? Too often, racism is a charge that folks (who don't believe in morality) use to help themselves feel morally superior. It has become sort of the ultimate sin -- for those who don't believe in sin. Cordially, Douglas Wilson From judyb@uidaho.edu Wed Jul 2 19:15:01 2003 From: judyb@uidaho.edu (Judy B. LaLonde) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:15:01 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Racism In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030702110245.01ccf0e8@mail.moscow.com> Message-ID: Personally, for me, Doug, and I suspect for many others, the answers to your questions are No and No. Racial animosity = racism An egalitarian may act in a malicious manner--certainly--he/she may kick his/her dog; may throw trash out the window. Doesn't change the "egalitarian" attitude. A racist may act in a benevolent manner--he/she may send flowers to someone in the hospital; help an elder person across the street. Doesn't change the "racist" attitude. Judy B. LaLonde From nielsen@uidaho.edu Wed Jul 2 19:21:29 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 11:21:29 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell? In-Reply-To: <00af01c3405c$5a4eabe0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Message-ID: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ralph Nielsen" > To: "Luke" > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell? > > >> Luke, >> >> I hope to get back to you tomorrow. You have a lot to learn about the >> Bible and its history. >> >> Ralph On Tuesday, July 1, 2003, at 10:39 PM, Luke wrote: > Actually, don't bother. You won't convince me, and I won't > convince you. > I am sure of my belief in the Bible's authenticity beyond all doubt, > and you > are steadfastly sure of its errors. I had to post one reply to what you > wrote, sir; however, I am not going to perpetuate another endless > debate at > the moment. > Sincerely and respectfully, > > Luke Nieuwsma > RALPH NIELSEN Poor Luke, a victim of fundamentalist propaganda. I hope he eventually grows up and thinks for himself. He imagines that I am attacking what the Bible says. He couldn't be more wrong. I said that there is no life after death in the Hebrew religion, i.e., the pre-Exilic religion of the Hebrew people as we have it in the Bible. But Luke doesn't believe the Bible. I will have other things to do in the next few days, so I will just leave my reading public with a few references to show that I am not spouting off some half-baked opinions of my own, as Luke seems to suggest, but am presenting biblical facts recognized by established scholars, both Jewish and Christian. "Much later, biblical religion postulated that the ultimate destiny of the individual does not end with death. There is not a hint of this suggestion in the Torah [the first 5 books of the Bible. RN], however, or in most of the Bible. There, human death is final. Whatever ideal state an individual Israelite can hope to achieve is restricted to one's lifetime and is conditional on heeding God's commands; material prosperity, good health, length of days, self-determination, posterity, and peace (Deuteronomy 28:1-14). With the possible exception of Elijah and Enoch, all biblical personalities die and their death is final." (Etz Hayim, Torah and Commentary. The Rabbinical Assembly, The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism. Produced by the Jewish Publication Society, c2001). Article on Eschatology, p. 1436. "Life after death. It is generally held by scholars that no hope of individual survival after death is expressed in the Old Testament before some of its latest passages, which were probably written in the 2d century BC." (The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Raymond E. Brown [et al.]. Prentice Hall, c1990). Article on Eschatology and the Afterlife, p. 1313. "In the preexilic period, there was no notion of a judgment of the dead based on their actions during life, nor is there any evidence for a belief that the righteous dead go to live in God's presence. The two persons in the Hebrew Bible who are taken to heaven to live with God, Enoch (Gen. 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:11), do not die. All who die, righteous or wicked, go to Sheol (see Gen. 42:38; Num. 16:30-33)." (The Oxford Companion to the Bible. Edited by Bruce M. Metzger, Michael D. Coogan. Oxford University Press, c1993). Article on Afterlife and Immortality, p. 15. I have no doubt that young Luke Nieuwsma is sincere in his ignorance but I have no respect for the shysters and scoundrels, both religious and political, who mislead people like him. Our best defense against them is a good biblical education. As a retired librarian, I would recommend the books mentioned above, as well as Remedial Christianity; What Every Believer Should Know about the Faith, but Probably Doesn't, by Paul Alan Laughlin. Polebridge Press, c2000. Your local bookstore will be glad to order them for you. Ralph Nielsen From dougwils@moscow.com Wed Jul 2 19:40:43 2003 From: dougwils@moscow.com (Douglas) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:40:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Racism In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030702110245.01ccf0e8@mail.moscow.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030702113622.01cebde8@mail.moscow.com> Judy, Thanks for the interaction. Wouldn't we all agree that some of the patronizing attitudes of the past (of the "white man's burden" sort) could be motivated entirely by kindness, but that the person extending that kindness had the racist view that his own race was necessarily superior to the other? Thus, benevolent racism. And couldn't we agree that two groups of people could hate one another simply for being the "other" without believing that the other group was inferior in any way? Malicious egalitarianism. Cordially, Douglas Wilson At 11:15 AM 7/2/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Personally, for me, Doug, and I suspect for many others, the answers to your >questions are No and No. > >Racial animosity = racism > >An egalitarian may act in a malicious manner--certainly--he/she may kick >his/her dog; may throw trash out the window. Doesn't change the >"egalitarian" attitude. > >A racist may act in a benevolent manner--he/she may send flowers to someone >in the hospital; help an elder person across the street. Doesn't change the >"racist" attitude. > >Judy B. LaLonde From sdredge@yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 19:46:23 2003 From: sdredge@yahoo.com (Scott Dredge) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 11:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Wal-mart expands anti-discrimination policy In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030702113622.01cebde8@mail.moscow.com> Message-ID: <20030702184623.35284.qmail@web10501.mail.yahoo.com> LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) -- Wal-Mart Stores Inc., the nation's largest private employer, will now include gays and lesbians in its anti-discrimination policy, company officials said Wednesday. Company spokesman Tom Williams said the policy will not affect benefits, which Wal-Mart does not offer to unmarried partners of any orientation, but he said sexual orientation will be added to the company's existing diversity-awareness training programs for employees. Full article at: http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/030702/wal_mart_gay_workers_4.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 20:02:57 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 12:02:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Racism Message-ID:

Doug,

I could not agree with either position you take.  I think the notion of 'Benevolent Racism' is a myth that colonizing nations used to try to whitewash (good word for this discussion, don't you think?) their real goals, which were the domination and exploitation of others.  It's so much easier to sell this stuff to your population if you're doing it for 'their' own good, because the poor, little darkies need help.  In the end, the British Empire didn’t exist to provide social services to the world.

When I look at where our policy and occupation of Iraq seems to be headed, our government is going to be making the same arguments and selling the same myth to the American people. (We'll set aside the use of fear for now.)  The administration has transitioned from getting rid of an imminent threat to our security - we couldn’t wait 30 more days to start this war because the threat was so urgent, and our president so impatient - to saving Iraq from a dictator and nation-building, doing for the Iraqis what they couldn’t do for themselves. There will be little discussion if they can help it about who is controlling Iraq’s oil or its allocation, or the fact that we can now move our troops out of Saudi Arabia and keep them in Iraq instead, or that we’ve actually colonized that country, or who is benefitting from the contracts to rebuild and run the country. The real reasons will be pushed in the shadows, and we’ll talk instead of our kindness and the love of humanity tha! t inspires us to help the Iraqis, never mind that we seem to be loving more of them to death every day, having loved up to 10,000 to death during the war.

Either in India under the English or in Iraq today, it’s not kindness that keeps the colonizer in power, it’s military force. There’s no need to tell the occupied people stories about ‘kindness’ being the reason for the occupation; the dead bodies and political prisoners let them know what’s going on, and it’s not kindness.

With regard to your second point, I think an essential component of hatred of the 'other' is a belief that the other is less than fully human. That’s the rationale that allows one group to subjugate the other.  So I can't agree with you here either.

Sunil Ramalingam



 

>From: Douglas
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Racism
>Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:40:43 -0700
>
>Judy,
>
>Thanks for the interaction.
>
>Wouldn't we all agree that some of the patronizing attitudes of the
>past (of the "white man's burden" sort) could be motivated entirely
>by kindness, but that the person extending that kindness had the
>racist view that his own race was necessarily superior to the other?
>Thus, benevolent racism.
>
>And couldn't we agree that two groups of people could hate one
>another simply for being the "other" without believing that the
>other group was inferior in any way? Malicious egalitarianism.
>
>Cordially,
>
>Douglas Wilson

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From auntiestablishment@hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 21:39:28 2003 From: auntiestablishment@hotmail.com (Joan Opyr) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 13:39:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Racism Message-ID: Thus spake Moscow's answer to Zarathustra: >In our discussions, we have to beware of racism inflation. In contemporary >public discourse, such charges are too readily leveled as the all-purpose >trump card. Why don't we agree to reserve it for those who believe and >affirm that one race is (racially) superior to another? With this more >precise definition, it would even be possible for the sin of racial >animosity to occur without the (distinct) sin of racism. The world is a >complicated place, and not made out of cardboard. For example, is it >possible to acknowledge the existence of malicious egalitarians and >benevolent racists? I am sorry, Doug, but this is a piece of sophistry worthy of Old Nick. What is the point in trying to conceive of a situation in which it would be possible to hate the members of a particular race without being racist? Conscience cleansing? Despising others without having to go to the expense of actually purchasing sheets? I don’t know that I am the only Southerner on this list, but in the current context I am perhaps the only one to admit it. My family has lived in North Carolina for three hundred and fifty years, and in that time, we have done our fair share of odious things—held slaves, supported segregation, and worked like hell to deny blacks the vote. But times, thank God, have changed. Today, not a man jack of us, not even the Dixiecrat/Republicans, would consider enlisting in the League of the South, an organization so redolent of brachycephalic cretinism that it’s a wonder its members can walk upright. A cursory glance at the collection of drafty misinformation, bigotry, and outright lies resident on the League of the South web-site suggests to me that while their ancestors were stripping the bark off trees looking for fat, juicy grubs, mine were inventing the shrimp fork. In the name of civic decency, I implore all defenders of the League of the South to cease your recitation of Jim Crow’s greatest hits and instead pick up a copy of Barbara Woodhouse’s ‘No Bad Dogs.’ It’s perfectly clear that what you fellows need is a chew toy. A rawhide, a rubber rolled newspaper, or a squeaky plastic hamburger would do nicely. Less talkie, more walkies, Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 21:44:28 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 13:44:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] An Invitation/Response Message-ID:

Casandra and Jessica,

Well let me be the first to publicly thank you for your and others efforts and invitation. I think what you are trying to do is very admirable to say the least.

On behave of your defense against others that have unfairly and unjustly attacked you and your efforts let me say this:

While I don't know Casandra well enough to comment on, I do know Jessica. She has worked very hard for the students and the community as a whole. She has brought together many people in the community to help volunteer and do community service in her formation of the "Civic Engagement Committee" through the student government (ASUI) at UI . I think she deserves nothing less then greatest appreciation for her works and efforts from students and members of the Moscow Community that benefit from the work she does.

While I don't have all the facts, I am willing to assume that this is an extension of the idea of uniting members of the Moscow Community and the students at UI that she has engaged in for the last few years. I think this is a wonder and kind idea of both Jessica and Casandra.

This is not an attempt to noisy themselves in the business of Moscow. This is an attempt of ASUI to reach out and forge new relations with the community. Not for the benefit of UI, but for the benefit of the Moscow Community. I think that is Terrific!

However, I want to add a few suggestions to help your efforts Casandra and Jessica, being that I was both an elected officer of ASUI, a third generation Moscow Resident, and an (over) active member on Vision2020.

First, I think the idea of having a picnic in East City Park is step in the right direction. I have fought for years over trying to get ASUI to move events off campus to reach out instead of always having the events on campus in the Idaho Commons. Moscow residents don't know their way around that building and can't park close.

Second, I don't think you should call it the "Vision2020 Community Potluck". You should call it the "Moscow Community Picnic and Recreation Event" for two different reasons. One, most people have a negative view of Vision2020 in terms of community "getting along". Many people in here don't see eye to eye and would not likely to go to an event that is meant to continue the discussion and argumentation in person. Not an appealing event to many. Many people don't want to be known that they are on here, and never post, just watch for events and information on what is happening in the community or ask questions to find something out. Second, making it open to the entire Moscow Community and not just Vision2020 subscribers allows people to feel comfortable bringing their spouses, children, friends, and neighbors. This will change the image of people going to an event with people throwing BBQ chicken at each other over taxes and the Moscow Wate! r supply, to a more serine image of neighbors meeting neighbors and making new friends while the kids get some exercise on the playground.

Finally, I don't know your reasoning for this, but July 15th is a Tuesday. Tuesday is kind of an odd day. Many people have children and/or attend other community events and will not be able to attend on a Tuesday evening.

Either way, thanks again to all of those that are trying to hold this event! I have no doubt that ASUI President Mason Fuller is  completely behind this spectacular idea.

Take Care,

Donovan J Arnold 


MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From dougwils@moscow.com Wed Jul 2 22:23:26 2003 From: dougwils@moscow.com (Douglas) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 14:23:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030702140554.01c4d250@mail.moscow.com> Dear visionaries, Sunil, thanks for the interaction. I don't have any problem agreeing with you that in looking for the motive forces for the colonialism of the British Empire, and now the emerging American Empire, one of the central things we should do is follow the money. My point was not that (for example) the British Empire was motivated by kindness. My point was that in such racist societies, individuals who are kind people can share those widespread racist assumptions. The attempt to demonize every member of such a society, making them all into orcs and klingons, is misguided in the extreme, and tends to trivialize the rhetoric of the whole thing, which was my initial point. Speaking of rhetoric, Joan is really good at it. She has a real flair for words, which I (really) appreciate and enjoy. And when she employs her gift in the advancement of moral indignation, her gift really shines. Unfortunately, without the traction of moral absolutes, her tires can go *really* fast, and we never seem to get anywhere. Is sophistry bad? Bigotry? Outright lies? Gee whiz. I thought that we as a people had grown past this kind of stale absolutist fundamentalism. No one died and left Joan the Sunday School schoolmarm. Now, mind you, as a confessing Christian, I think all the nasty things Joan identified are in fact sinful. Really sinful. I believe that God will eternally judge sophists, bigots, and liars on the Last Day. But what does Joan think the difference between a Georgia cracker (old style Ole Miss racial preferences) and a wine and cheese liberal (new style University of Michigan racial preferences) will be one hundred and fifty years from now? What difference does it make? What kind of people will we be *forever*? Simple question. Is it absolutely morally wrong to be a racial bigot? I believe so. What do you all think? Cordially, your fellow Southerner, Douglas At 01:39 PM 7/2/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Thus spake Moscow's answer to Zarathustra: > >>In our discussions, we have to beware of racism inflation. In >>contemporary public discourse, such charges are too readily leveled as >>the all-purpose trump card. Why don't we agree to reserve it for those >>who believe and affirm that one race is (racially) superior to another? >>With this more precise definition, it would even be possible for the sin >>of racial animosity to occur without the (distinct) sin of racism. The >>world is a complicated place, and not made out of cardboard. For example, >>is it possible to acknowledge the existence of malicious egalitarians and >>benevolent racists? > >I am sorry, Doug, but this is a piece of sophistry worthy of Old >Nick. What is the point in trying to conceive of a situation in which it >would be possible to hate the members of a particular race without being >racist? >Conscience cleansing? Despising others without having to go to the >expense of actually purchasing sheets? > >I don’t know that I am the only Southerner on this list, but in the >current context I am perhaps the only one to admit it. My family has >lived in North Carolina for three hundred and fifty years, and in that >time, we have done our fair share of odious things—held slaves, supported >segregation, and worked like hell to deny blacks the vote. But times, >thank God, have changed. Today, not a man jack of us, not even the >Dixiecrat/Republicans, would consider enlisting in the League of the >South, an organization so redolent of brachycephalic cretinism that it’s a >wonder its members can walk upright. A cursory glance at the collection >of drafty misinformation, bigotry, and outright lies resident on the >League of the South web-site suggests to me that while their ancestors >were stripping the bark off trees looking for fat, juicy grubs, mine were >inventing the shrimp fork. > >In the name of civic decency, I implore all defenders of the League of the >South to cease your recitation of Jim Crow’s greatest hits and instead >pick up a copy of Barbara Woodhouse’s ‘No Bad Dogs.’ It’s perfectly clear >that what you fellows need is a chew toy. A rawhide, a rubber rolled >newspaper, or a squeaky plastic hamburger would do nicely. > >Less talkie, more walkies, > >Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment > >_________________________________________________________________ >Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From jessical@sub.uidaho.edu Wed Jul 2 23:02:29 2003 From: jessical@sub.uidaho.edu (Jessica Lipschultz) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 15:02:29 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Clarification Message-ID: <9ED40ACAD972CB40AF23181E18795996D297BE@fox.sub.uidaho.edu> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C340E5.A1444B42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been asked to clarify that the community potluck is in no way = connected to any department or group associated with the University of = Idaho. It is simply an opportunity for community members to come = together. =20 =20 Sincerely, Jessica=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Donovan Arnold Hotmail=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 1:44 PM To: Casandra Byington; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Invitation/Response =20 Casandra and Jessica, Well let me be the first to publicly thank you for your and others = efforts and invitation. I think what you are trying to do is very = admirable to say the least. On behave of your defense against others that have unfairly and unjustly = attacked you and your efforts let me say this: While I don't know Casandra well enough to comment on, I do know = Jessica. She has worked very hard for the students and the community as = a whole. She has brought together many people in the community to help = volunteer and do community service in her formation of the "Civic = Engagement Committee" through the student government (ASUI) at UI . I = think she deserves nothing less then greatest appreciation for her works = and efforts from students and members of the Moscow Community that = benefit from the work she does. While I don't have all the facts, I am willing to assume that this is an = extension of the idea of uniting members of the Moscow Community and the = students at UI that she has engaged in for the last few years. I think = this is a wonder and kind idea of both Jessica and Casandra. This is not an attempt to noisy themselves in the business of Moscow. = This is an attempt of ASUI to reach out and forge new relations with the = community. Not for the benefit of UI, but for the benefit of the Moscow = Community. I think that is Terrific! However, I want to add a few suggestions to help your efforts Casandra = and Jessica, being that I was both an elected officer of ASUI, a third = generation Moscow Resident, and an (over) active member on Vision2020. First, I think the idea of having a picnic in East City Park is step in = the right direction. I have fought for years over trying to get ASUI to = move events off campus to reach out instead of always having the events = on campus in the Idaho Commons. Moscow residents don't know their way = around that building and can't park close. Second, I don't think you should call it the "Vision2020 Community = Potluck". You should call it the "Moscow Community Picnic and Recreation = Event" for two different reasons. One, most people have a negative view = of Vision2020 in terms of community "getting along". Many people in here = don't see eye to eye and would not likely to go to an event that is = meant to continue the discussion and argumentation in person. Not an = appealing event to many. Many people don't want to be known that they = are on here, and never post, just watch for events and information on = what is happening in the community or ask questions to find something = out. Second, making it open to the entire Moscow Community and not just = Vision2020 subscribers allows people to feel comfortable bringing their = spouses, children, friends, and neighbors. This will change the image of = people going to an event with people throwing BBQ chicken at each other = over taxes and the Moscow Wate! r supply, to a more serine image of = neighbors meeting neighbors and making new friends while the kids get = some exercise on the playground. Finally, I don't know your reasoning for this, but July 15th is a = Tuesday. Tuesday is kind of an odd day. Many people have children and/or = attend other community events and will not be able to attend on a = Tuesday evening. Either way, thanks again to all of those that are trying to hold this = event! I have no doubt that ASUI President Mason Fuller is completely = behind this spectacular idea.=20 Take Care, Donovan J Arnold=20 _____ =20 MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. = Get 2 months FREE*. _____________________________________________________ List services made = available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse = since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------_=_NextPart_001_01C340E5.A1444B42 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have been asked to clarify that = the community potluck is in no way connected to any department or group = associated with the University of Idaho.=A0 It is simply an opportunity for community members to = come together.=A0=A0

 

Sincerely,

Jessica

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Donovan Arnold = Hotmail
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, = 2003 1:44 PM
To: Casandra Byington; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] = An Invitation/Response

 

Casandra and Jessica,

Well let me be the first to publicly thank = you for your and others efforts and invitation. I think what you are trying to = do is very admirable to say the least.

On behave of your defense against others that have unfairly and unjustly attacked you and your efforts let me say = this:

While I don't know Casandra well enough to = comment on, I do know Jessica. She has worked very hard for the students and = the community as a whole. She has brought together many people in the community to help volunteer and do community service in her formation of = the "Civic Engagement Committee" through the student government = (ASUI) at UI . I think she deserves nothing less then greatest appreciation = for her works and efforts from students and members of the Moscow Community that benefit from the work she does.

While I don't have all the facts, I am = willing to assume that this is an extension of the idea of uniting members of the = Moscow Community and the students at UI that she has engaged in for the last = few years. I think this is a wonder and kind idea of both Jessica and = Casandra.

This is not an attempt to noisy themselves in = the business of Moscow. This is an attempt of ASUI to reach out and forge = new relations with the community. Not for the benefit of UI, but for the = benefit of the Moscow Community. I think that is Terrific!

However, I want to add a few suggestions to = help your efforts Casandra and Jessica, being that I was both an elected officer = of ASUI, a third generation Moscow Resident, and an (over) active member on = Vision2020.

First, I think the idea of having a picnic in = East City Park is step in the right direction. I have fought for years over = trying to get ASUI to move events off campus to reach out instead of always = having the events on campus in the Idaho Commons. Moscow residents don't know their = way around that building and can't park close.

Second, I don't think you should call it the "Vision2020 Community Potluck". You should call it the = "Moscow Community Picnic and Recreation Event" for two different reasons. = One, most people have a negative view of Vision2020 in terms of community "getting along". Many people in here don't see eye to eye and = would not likely to go to an event that is meant to continue the discussion = and argumentation in person. Not an appealing event to many. Many people don't want to be = known that they are on here, and never post, just watch for events = and information on what is happening in the community or ask questions to = find something out. Second, making it open to the entire Moscow Community and = not just Vision2020 subscribers allows people to feel comfortable = bringing their spouses, children, friends, and neighbors. This will change = the image of people going to an event with people throwing BBQ = chicken at each other over taxes and the Moscow Wate! r supply, to a more serine image of neighbors meeting neighbors and making new = friends while the kids get some exercise on the playground.

Finally, I don't know your reasoning for = this, but July 15th is a Tuesday. Tuesday is kind of an odd day. Many people have children and/or attend other community events and will not be able to = attend on a Tuesday evening.

Either way, thanks again to all of those = that are trying to hold this event! I have no doubt that ASUI President Mason = Fuller is  completely behind this spectacular idea.

Take Care,

Donovan J Arnold 


MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. = Get 2 months FREE*.

_____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet,=20 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. =20 http://www.fsr.net =20 mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C340E5.A1444B42-- From DonaldH675@aol.com Wed Jul 2 23:58:54 2003 From: DonaldH675@aol.com (DonaldH675@aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:58:54 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Clarification Message-ID: <132.21a3d62f.2c34bdae@aol.com> --part1_132.21a3d62f.2c34bdae_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Visionaries, I would like to second Donovan's appreciation for the kind invitation from Jennifer and Cassandra. Members of the Huskey and Opyr-Huskey will be leaving the compound and traveling to Moscow City Park to attend. Hope to see and meet many of you there. I see real possibilities of a Middle East (City Park) peace conference developing.....as long as Joan and I get to take turns being Ariel Sharon. Best, Rose Huskey --part1_132.21a3d62f.2c34bdae_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Visionaries,
I would like to second Donovan's appreciation for the kind invitation from J= ennifer and Cassandra.  Members of the Huskey and Opyr-Huskey will be l= eaving the compound and traveling to Moscow City Park to attend.  Hope=20= to see and meet many of you there.  I see real possibilities of a Middl= e East (City Park) peace conference developing.....as long as Joan and I get= to take turns being Ariel Sharon.
Best,
Rose Huskey

--part1_132.21a3d62f.2c34bdae_boundary-- From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Thu Jul 3 02:45:01 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:45:01 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell? References: Message-ID: <000601c34123$7f3079d0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Dear Visionaries: I had thought that it was commonly understood courtesy to keep off-list conversations off-list. Am I mistaken? Is this something acceptable on Vision2020? Mr. Nielson, since you decided to turn private into public: One reason I am not going to perpetuate an endless debate against you is that you don't want to believe the truths of the Bible. Even if I was able to logically shatter every argument you placed on the board, it would be futile. You would never give up. You do not truly understand the Scriptures because you refuse to; and you refuse to because you do not wish to understand them. So in your unhappiness you twist them. I respect your massive amount of knowledge, your studying, and your age. However, I will not run a race against a creek. Best wishes, Luke Nieuwsma ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph Nielsen" To: "Luke" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell? > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ralph Nielsen" > > To: "Luke" > > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:22 PM > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell? > > > > > >> Luke, > >> > >> I hope to get back to you tomorrow. You have a lot to learn about the > >> Bible and its history. > >> > >> Ralph > > > On Tuesday, July 1, 2003, at 10:39 PM, Luke wrote: > > > Actually, don't bother. You won't convince me, and I won't > > convince you. > > I am sure of my belief in the Bible's authenticity beyond all doubt, > > and you > > are steadfastly sure of its errors. I had to post one reply to what you > > wrote, sir; however, I am not going to perpetuate another endless > > debate at > > the moment. > > Sincerely and respectfully, > > > > Luke Nieuwsma > > > RALPH NIELSEN > Poor Luke, a victim of fundamentalist propaganda. I hope he eventually > grows up and thinks for himself. He imagines that I am attacking what > the Bible says. He couldn't be more wrong. I said that there is no life > after death in the Hebrew religion, i.e., the pre-Exilic religion of > the Hebrew people as we have it in the Bible. But Luke doesn't believe > the Bible. > > I will have other things to do in the next few days, so I will just > leave my reading public with a few references to show that I am not > spouting off some half-baked opinions of my own, as Luke seems to > suggest, but am presenting biblical facts recognized by established > scholars, both Jewish and Christian. > > "Much later, biblical religion postulated that the ultimate destiny of > the individual does not end with death. There is not a hint of this > suggestion in the Torah [the first 5 books of the Bible. RN], however, > or in most of the Bible. There, human death is final. Whatever ideal > state an individual Israelite can hope to achieve is restricted to > one's lifetime and is conditional on heeding God's commands; material > prosperity, good health, length of days, self-determination, posterity, > and peace (Deuteronomy 28:1-14). With the possible exception of Elijah > and Enoch, all biblical personalities die and their death is final." > (Etz Hayim, Torah and Commentary. The Rabbinical Assembly, The United > Synagogue of Conservative Judaism. Produced by the Jewish Publication > Society, c2001). Article on Eschatology, p. 1436. > > "Life after death. It is generally held by scholars that no hope of > individual survival after death is expressed in the Old Testament > before some of its latest passages, which were probably written in the > 2d century BC." (The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Raymond > E. Brown [et al.]. Prentice Hall, c1990). Article on Eschatology and > the Afterlife, p. 1313. > > "In the preexilic period, there was no notion of a judgment of the > dead based on their actions during life, nor is there any evidence for > a belief that the righteous dead go to live in God's presence. The two > persons in the Hebrew Bible who are taken to heaven to live with God, > Enoch (Gen. 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:11), do not die. All who die, > righteous or wicked, go to Sheol (see Gen. 42:38; Num. 16:30-33)." (The > Oxford Companion to the Bible. Edited by Bruce M. Metzger, Michael D. > Coogan. Oxford University Press, c1993). Article on Afterlife and > Immortality, p. 15. > > I have no doubt that young Luke Nieuwsma is sincere in his ignorance > but I have no respect for the shysters and scoundrels, both religious > and political, who mislead people like him. Our best defense against > them is a good biblical education. > > As a retired librarian, I would recommend the books mentioned above, as > well as Remedial Christianity; What Every Believer Should Know about > the Faith, but Probably Doesn't, by Paul Alan Laughlin. Polebridge > Press, c2000. Your local bookstore will be glad to order them for you. > > Ralph Nielsen > > > From bentwigg@yahoo.com Thu Jul 3 17:20:08 2003 From: bentwigg@yahoo.com (Ben Twigg) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Chipman Trail update Message-ID: <20030703162008.65573.qmail@web11003.mail.yahoo.com> I'm happy to report that visibility at intersections on the Chipman Trail is now improved, thanks to the efforts of a (Whitman County?) maintenance crew a few days ago. Thanks also to those of you who provided information regarding Chipman Trail maintenance in general. Incidentally, I've discovered a great way to commute to and from Pullman...hop on the Wheatland Express with bike in the morning (so as to avoid getting hot and sweaty before work), then ride the Chipman Trail home. The bus is free to WSU and UI faculty/students. Ben Twigg __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Thu Jul 3 19:08:08 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 11:08:08 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] 25 million dollar reward Message-ID: I heard on the news this morning that the United States is offering a 25 million dollar reward for information leading to the capture of Saddam Hussein. Heck, I'll give it a shot. He's in the Middle East. Somewhere. If this proves helpful to George W. "Bring Them On!" Bush, I'll accept check, cash or money order. Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jsullivan@moscow.com Thu Jul 3 19:09:59 2003 From: jsullivan@moscow.com (JSullivan) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:09:59 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] 25 million dollar reward References: Message-ID: <001d01c3418e$51931120$fbf2f5c7@Janestas> With the state of the economy. He can pay me in cold hard cash. Janesta Sullivan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Westberg" To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 11:08 AM Subject: [Vision2020] 25 million dollar reward > I heard on the news this morning that the United States is offering a 25 > million dollar reward for information leading to the capture of Saddam > Hussein. Heck, I'll give it a shot. He's in the Middle East. Somewhere. > If this proves helpful to George W. "Bring Them On!" Bush, I'll accept > check, cash or money order. > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 3 19:25:05 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Community Christian Ministries) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] An Open Letter to Nathan Alford, publisher M-P Daily News Message-ID: <20030703182505.95921.qmail@web20713.mail.yahoo.com> Open Letter to Nathan Alford, publisher of the Moscow-Pullman Daily News dear mr. alford: i recommend that your newspaper stop withholding information regarding the hoover scandal. last may 2002, i was on the university campus, telling people there about a hunch i had: that bob hoover was stealing money from the university. i continued my investigation off-campus, letting reporters around the northwest know what i was on to. curiously, no student reporter at the argonaut would touch the story at the time, because of the stifling climate of censorship present on campus and in moscow. there was an oppressive free-speech climate that still exists today. things became quiet until...earlier this year, when it came out in the press that perhaps hoover was responsible for missing money having to do with a failed educational project in boise. well, mr. alford, it seems as if your reporters weren't as quick on the uptake as they should have been with the scandal, because when i was asked for information over the internet by a few reporters throughout the state, there was NO MENTION of any quality coverage coming from your paper. in fact, the general opinion of the moscow-pullman daily news in boise is that it's strictly low-brow. the fact is, the moscow-pullman daily news is far from just a small-town sheet of innocence and what-not. what we really have in moscow, is an outfit that leaves information out, so that over time, the general local public is uninformed, and thus much less likely to challenge the status quo in moscow. people around the northwest are going to find out that people like you have been doing your very best to protect your readership from the truth about moscow: that it is a place totally littered with years of political, business and law enforcement corruption. i'm wondering, mr. alford, how a Christian staff at your paper would react to concern that you have been spreading disinformation to the public here. maybe we will soon find out, as the hoover scandal grows thick with cover-ups and you continue to maintain an editorial page that skirts local issues that are of vital importance to people in moscow: like local government corruption and pay-offs at the university. I don't think that your current staff at the paper could tell the difference between gossip and the truth even if Vera White admitted publicly that your version of news in the Palouse is more than just sub-standard: it's harmful to the public. for all the nonsense that goes on in this town about how inferior the university of montana is compared to the university of idaho, i know that this level of conduct from your newspaper would never be tolerated in the good town of Missoula. maybe they should report about what's going on in moscow from there. i'm sure they would have an insightful perspective on Vandal pride and everything else that is wrong in the Palouse. all the best, Ben Twigg (ccm_moscow@yahoo.com) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From dkaag@turbonet.com Thu Jul 3 19:26:08 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:26:08 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] 25 million dollar reward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carl: Actually, this might work, given the general level of loyalty and morality in the Fertile Crescent. Go back and read Kipling's "Ballad of Boh Da Thone"! The British, according to Rudyard, had much the same problem with a bandit chieftan in the NWF during the Raj, and it was solved handily with a reward. In Iraq his own mother would probably turn him in for $25m, and throw in Uday and Sanjay as freebies! Regards, Don On Thursday, July 3, 2003, at 11:08 AM, Carl Westberg wrote: > I heard on the news this morning that the United States is offering a > 25 million dollar reward for information leading to the capture of > Saddam Hussein. Heck, I'll give it a shot. He's in the Middle East. > Somewhere. If this proves helpful to George W. "Bring Them On!" Bush, > I'll accept check, cash or money order. > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the > communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jul 3 19:37:25 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:37:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] An Open Letter to Nathan Alford, publisher M-P Daily News In-Reply-To: <20030703182505.95921.qmail@web20713.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007201c34192$26d8a9f0$ca01a8c0@home> > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Community > Christian Ministries > Sent: Thursday, 03 July, 2003 11:25 > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: [Vision2020] An Open Letter to Nathan Alford, > publisher M-P Daily News Stambler has more heads than a Hydra. This was sent from a workstation at Metropolitan State University. I doubt Stambler has anything to do with CCM. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From bentwigg@yahoo.com Thu Jul 3 19:45:53 2003 From: bentwigg@yahoo.com (Ben Twigg) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] An Open Letter to Nathan Alford, publisher M-P Daily News Message-ID: <20030703184553.1009.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com> I am not the author of the letter with this heading, and I suspect that ccm_moscow@yahoo.com is not an e-mail address that is used by anyone associated with Community Christian Ministries. To the real author, please do not misrepresent me again. Thank you. Ben Twigg __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From london@moscow.com Sat Jul 5 00:57:42 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 16:57:42 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] telemarketing Message-ID: <3F061475.6DF28BAC@moscow.com> I just signed up to be deleted from telemarketing lists nationwide. The process is free and quick. The "National Do Not Call Registry" has been created by the US govt to give consumers who do not want to get telemarketing calls a chance to stay off the lists. The registry does not become effective until October. But hopefully, it's a start. 1-888-382-1222 BL From dale@courtneys.us Sat Jul 5 00:50:35 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 16:50:35 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] telemarketing In-Reply-To: <3F061475.6DF28BAC@moscow.com> Message-ID: <007501c34287$10448510$ca01a8c0@home> > I just signed up to be deleted from telemarketing lists > nationwide. The process is free and quick. The "National Do > Not Call Registry" has been created by the US govt to give > consumers who do not want to get telemarketing calls a chance > to stay off the lists. The registry does not become effective > until October. But hopefully, it's a start. 1-888-382-1222 BL If you want to do it online, go to http://www.donotcall.gov They'll make you verify via a return email to confirm. This is a federal site and is not a hoax. Best, Dale From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 18:43:02 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Community Christian Ministries) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 10:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] response to ben twigg In-Reply-To: <20030703184553.1009.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030705174302.30638.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> ben: 1) i e-mailed you prior to sending the nathan alford letter, trying to find out if YOU were hiding behind a false name. as there was no response, i used the name, too, with the intention of demonstrating bill london's rule that you don't hide behind false names on the forum. now that your name is authenticated, i will not use that name again. 2) i have started my own organization in moscow/pullman, called Community Chrisian Ministries. i don't think that jim wilson has any legal rights to the name that i have heard of, so i have decided to start a new organization that actually helps people instead of preaches to them In Christ, Douglas Stambler (currently in Minneapolis) --- Ben Twigg wrote: > I am not the author of the letter with this heading, > and I suspect that ccm_moscow@yahoo.com is not an > e-mail address that is used by anyone associated > with > Community Christian Ministries. To the real author, > please do not misrepresent me again. Thank you. > > Ben Twigg > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From davidcb@acm.org Sat Jul 5 18:52:59 2003 From: davidcb@acm.org (David Camden-Britton) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 10:52:59 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Bookworm Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030705104120.02412030@mail.turbonet.com> So, out of curiosity, how many of you called in sick, took a vacation day, faked your own death, etc. in order to have some quality time with the new Harry Potter book? 

For those that did, did you think it worth the wait from the last one?  Also, have you heard of the "Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter" by Galadriel Waters and Astre Mithrandir?  It is *marvelous*.  A chapter-by-chapter analysis of the Harry Potter books (1 - 4) giving you insights into the clues that J.K. Rowling leaves all through her books.

After reading this, it makes the Harry Potter series even more interesting, because they are all worth several rereads just to see what clues and hints about future events have been dropped in the first four books.  It's available from Amazon, of course.

Happy 5th of July -- National Firework Cleanup Day.

David Camden-Britton -=)*(=-  davidcb@acm.org From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 19:01:43 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Community Christian Ministries) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] reponse to dale courtney, and for jim wilson Message-ID: <20030705180143.9430.qmail@web20713.mail.yahoo.com> dale: 1. have you ever seen the movie jackass? it's all about how stupid people can be when they're trying to make a fool out of someone else. and for the umpteenth time, you know well enough that i am fully capable of getting people to laugh at me through my own actions. so, butt out of my life, and try an honest career for a change, like farming, or community organizing. i hardly think that your current 9 to 5 job counts as anything more than paper-pushing. (in other words, why not stick a lit firecracker down your pants?) 2. jim wilson's Community Christian Ministries is a joke. unflatteringly known as the "Christian Mafia," the Wilson family has pretended to help others for over a generation. now, the tide has turned, and with the public downfall of doug wilson and his Satanic church, something needs to be done to replace the current incarnation of CCM, so ineptly led at this point by doug wilson's memory-challenged, aged father, jim. so, i've started my own organization with the same name, and that's that. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (wherever his ISP leads him) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From timlohr@yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 19:16:42 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Talk Show 7/6/03: Fred Leas/ID Supreme Court/local legal situation Message-ID: <20030705181642.23094.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, On Sunday 6/22/03 MOSCOW MORNING VIEWS, a talk show on KUOI 89.3 FM in Moscow(web audio on KUOI.org) will feature the following guest: --In the first hour (9-10 am)Fred Leas, of Helmer will be in the studio. Leas recently argued an appeal of his own suit against two local probation officers to the Idaho Supreme Court. He will discuss the latest news in his now near-epic ongoing legal struggle that began years ago with a battle for custody of his two daughters. --In the second hour (10-11 am) we will finish up the discussion with Fred and possibly have time for open-line phone calls. MOSCOW MORNING VIEWS is aired live every Sunday Morning from 9-11 am on KUOI 89.3 FM and streamed live on the internet on KUOI's website(KUOI.org) Call in phone #'s: 885-6392 or 885-6393 Anyone with comments, questions or suggestions for guests can send e-mail to: timlohr@yahoo.com OR call the studio after the show at the numbers above. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From timlohr@yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 19:21:28 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] CORRECTION Message-ID: <20030705182128.36435.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, An error was made in my last post announcing Mr. Fred Leas' appearance on MOSCOW MORNING VIEWS tomorrow. The date is listed in one spot as 6/22/03. Since that date has passed, it's clearly incorrect and should read 7/6/03. Thanks, TL __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 21:24:28 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Community Christian Ministries) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 13:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Announcement: Dale Courtney Is An Apologist For Christ Church Message-ID: <20030705202428.57174.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> --0-533061357-1057436668=:55894 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Announcement: Dale Courtney Is An Apologist For Christ Church --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-533061357-1057436668=:55894 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Announcement: Dale Courtney Is An Apologist For Christ Church

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-533061357-1057436668=:55894-- From davidcb@acm.org Sat Jul 5 23:02:51 2003 From: davidcb@acm.org (David Camden-Britton) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 15:02:51 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] EEK! Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030705150056.02414220@mail.turbonet.com> I made a terrible gaffe in my Harry Potter e-mail.  Forget all mention of That Other Bookstore.  We've got a great one right here, Bookpeople. Bob Greene was kind enough to point out that they have Harry Potter in English, Russian, Spanish and French, with a Latin version coming out soon.  Also, they have the Unofficial guide I mentioned.

So, many apologies to the fine folks at Bookpeople for diverting people's attention from their business. It wasn't very community-oriented of me.

David Camden-Britton -=)*(=-  davidcb@acm.org From escape@alt-escape.com Sun Jul 6 04:47:38 2003 From: escape@alt-escape.com (Bob Hoffmann) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 20:47:38 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] 25 million dollar reward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030705204447.01dc1cc0@mail.turbonet.com> I think we can read the sequence of events like this: Unemployment rate surges to 6.4%. President Bush offers $25 million reward for Saddam. We all clear on that now? I'd bet 9 million unemployed Americans are getting on planes for a shot at that reward. At 11:08 AM 7/3/2003 -0700, Carl Westberg wrote: >I heard on the news this morning that the United States is offering a 25 >million dollar reward for information leading to the capture of Saddam >Hussein. Heck, I'll give it a shot. He's in the Middle East. Somewhere. >If this proves helpful to George W. "Bring Them On!" Bush, I'll accept >check, cash or money order. > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > >_________________________________________________________________ >Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 6 07:14:13 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 23:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] 25 million dollar reward In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030705204447.01dc1cc0@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: <20030706061413.7861.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> Good Point Bob, Keeping in line with our good democrat friend John Moss and the idea that levies and laws can fix everything, President Bush should create a law making unemployment illegal. That will fix it! Cheers! John Harrell --- Bob Hoffmann wrote: > I think we can read the sequence of events like this: > > Unemployment rate surges to 6.4%. > President Bush offers $25 million reward for Saddam. > > We all clear on that now? I'd bet 9 million unemployed Americans are > getting on planes for a shot at that reward. > > At 11:08 AM 7/3/2003 -0700, Carl Westberg wrote: > >I heard on the news this morning that the United States is offering a 25 > >million dollar reward for information leading to the capture of Saddam > >Hussein. Heck, I'll give it a shot. He's in the Middle East. Somewhere. > >If this proves helpful to George W. "Bring Them On!" Bush, I'll accept > >check, cash or money order. > > > > > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > >_____________________________________________________ > >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the > >communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > Bob Hoffmann > 820 S. Logan St. > Moscow, ID 83843 > > Tel: 208 883-0642 > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jul 6 08:58:17 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 00:58:17 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] 25 million dollar reward Message-ID:

Somebody PLEASE send Bush another Pretzel! It may look bad in history books, but it is better then what will otherwise be written in them.

Donovan J Arnold 

>From: John Harrell
>To: Bob Hoffmann , vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 25 million dollar reward
>Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 23:14:13 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Good Point Bob,
>
>Keeping in line with our good democrat friend John Moss and the idea
>that levies and laws can fix everything, President Bush should create
>a law making unemployment illegal. That will fix it!
>
>Cheers!
>John Harrell
>
>
>--- Bob Hoffmann wrote:
> > I think we can read the sequence of events like this:
> >
> > Unemployment rate surges to 6.4%.
> > President Bush offers $25 million reward for Saddam.
> >
> > We all clear on that now? I'd bet 9 million unemployed Americans are
> > getting on planes for a shot at that reward.
> >
> > At 11:08 AM 7/3/2003 -0700, Carl Westberg wrote:
> > >I heard on the news this morning that the United States is offering a 25
> > >million dollar reward for information leading to the capture of Saddam
> > >Hussein. Heck, I'll give it a shot. He's in the Middle East. Somewhere.
> > >If this proves helpful to George W. "Bring Them On!" Bush, I'll accept
> > >check, cash or money order.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Carl Westberg Jr.
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> > >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
> > >
> > >_____________________________________________________
> > >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
> > >communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
> >
> > Bob Hoffmann
> > 820 S. Logan St.
> > Moscow, ID 83843
> >
> > Tel: 208 883-0642
> >
> >
> > _____________________________________________________
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* From dale@courtneys.us Sun Jul 6 14:57:18 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 06:57:18 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] One Word in Home-Schooling Resolution Causes Long Debate at 2003 National Education Association Representative Assembly Message-ID: <000601c343c6$839e2170$ca01a8c0@home> The most contentious amendment of the 2003 National Education Association Representative Assembly involved the deletion of a single word in Resolution B-69, which deals with home-schooling. The resolution had a sentence that read: "The Association also believes that unfunded home-schooled students should not participate in any extracurricular activities in the public schools." Some states provide funding for homeschoolers to participate in after-school activities. The amendment was to remove the word "unfunded" so that NEA's opposition would be categorical. Some delegates fought hard to keep the word in. A surprising number of speakers taught, coached, or otherwise had professional contact with homeschoolers. Others suggested that such extracurricular participation made homeschoolers more likely to enter public schools full-time. Still others suggested that the deletion would punish children for the choices of their parents. Ultimately, however, the will of the majority of delegates was to delete "unfunded," reasoning that with or without the money to do so, they didn't want homeschoolers in any way to edge out those students who were "with us all day." The standard tactic of a monopoly -- legislate away the competition. Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From london@moscow.com Sun Jul 6 20:11:11 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 12:11:11 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow Civic Association meeting Message-ID: <3F08744F.A268428E@moscow.com> Supporting the Arts is Focus of Moscow Civic Association Meeting The public is invited to the Moscow Civic Association meeting to be held on Monday, July 14, at 7:30pm in the 1912 Building in Moscow. The meeting will focus on economic development and enhancement of the quality of life in Moscow by increasing support for the arts, announced MCA president Lois Blackburn. The meeting will include a presentation by Deena Heath, director of the Moscow Arts Commission about community cultural planning. Cultural planning encourages artists and strengthens nonprofit cultural organizations while addressing regional planning concerns by applying the arts and culture to tourism, municipal design, downtown revitalization, as well as economic and community development. A panel discussion, with opportunity for public input and questions, will follow. The discussion will focus on improving Moscow through a more vibrant arts community. Panelists will include: Shelley Bennett, owner of Bennett & Associates Real Estate Agency, member Board of Directors of Kenworthy Performing Arts Centre, former member of Board of Directors of Idaho Repertory Theater. Jim Boland, Owner of C & L Locker, Inc., three time President and long-time board member of Rendezvous in Moscow, past-president of the Moscow Chamber of Commerce. Julie Ketchum, Executive Director of the Kenworthy Performing Arts Centre, former Executive Director of Rendezvous in Moscow. Diana Pace, professional artist. Linda Pall, former City Council member, driving force behind the development of the Moscow Farmer’s Market and the establishment of the Moscow Arts Commission. Donna Kendall Woolston, owner of a local marketing business, Appearances Marketing and Promotions, vice-chair of the Kenworthy Performing Arts Centre, Moscow Arts Commissioner, and on the Board of Directors of both Rendezvous in Moscow and Festival Dance and Performing Arts. For more information, or to join the organization, visit the MCA webpage at http: www.moscowcivicasso.org/. From escape@alt-escape.com Mon Jul 7 00:35:28 2003 From: escape@alt-escape.com (Bob Hoffmann) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 16:35:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Government Information Awareness Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030706163436.01dbbe10@mail.turbonet.com> http://opengov.media.mit.edu "Its creators hope it will become a Google of government, a massive Internet clearinghouse of information to help citizens track their leaders as effectively as their leaders track them." From CNN, http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/internet/07/06/government.google.ap/index.html Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Mon Jul 7 02:10:23 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 18:10:23 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <001901c344e7$a855df40$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Hello, Mr. Moffet: I apologize for taking so long to give a reply. Here it is: > is possible that Christ is our savior and you are correct! I am also open > to Hinduism and Islam and Buddhism, etc. But you insist that your > interpretation of reality must be the only correct one. If you reply to > this post and admit that you might be wrong, and some other religion than > yours might be correct, than you will have shown tolerance and humility. You seem to think that certainty implies arrogance. But it doesn't. If I see a green car go by, but then you say, "Look at that red car!" my certainty that it is green does not come from pride. Christianity is not the truth because Luke Nieuwsma believes it, and he's so great. Luke Nieuwsma is Not so great, and he believes it because it is the truth. > > > >Well then, to return to that metaphor, you couldn't stick NBA players and > >NCAA players on the same court, tell them to all follow their particular > >rules, and have a good game. The result would be truly chaotic. > > Again, this is ridiculous, like saying the Bible and the Koran should be > read and chanted side by side in the same church. No one is suggesting > playing the "game" of religion at the same time on the same court with > differing rules. Actually, some have already tried it. On the day after 9/11, there was a universal church service in DC where religions of all sorts came together in a theological hodge-podge, and the church attendies had a four(plus)-fruit spiritual smoothie drink for their souls. Even you admit that this is absurd. You admit that Islamic and Christian worship cannot be practiced inside the same building. But they also cannot be practiced in the same nation without incongruity. People are simply living out what is read in worship, and if those things are contradictory, then you cannot have them at the same time. Even if you're "tolerant." > >Actually, this nation was constructed as a republic, not a democracy. Look > >at the history. Look at the pledge. "I pledge allegiance to the flag, and > >to > >the Republic for which it stands..." > > You are ignoring your completely false statement that Democrats are > non-Christian! Will you admit this was wrong? I was making a generalization. I admit that there are some Christian Democrats who are more conservative than some Republicans, and there are some non-Christian Republicans who are more liberal than some Democrats. However, the statement applies to at least 60%, if not more, of the D's. > Again, more extreme all or nothing, black and white thinking. Many people > believe in their religion, but still are open to other faiths and have some > doubt about their own faith. They are not as arrogant as you think they all > are. And I have much doubt about about my own views of religion and > spirituality, so I am not saying my understanding is the right one. Then why do you express it on the list? You see, Mr. Moffet, you are running into contradictions again. You say that you really aren't sure about religious truth, but you are definitely sure about one thing - no one can be truly sure about anything! You have a moral compass spray-painted over by cameleon-blue paint, and you don't want to clean it off. You try to dodge absolute truth, and then you turn around and try to chuck it at me. You basically say that we can't be certain. Yet you are certain about that. And you call my arguments "silly logic games," but that simply means you cannot refute them. One army can yell insults at the other, but arrows are what thin the ranks. Sincerely and respectfully, Luke Nieuwsma From ttrail@moscow.com Tue Jul 8 04:07:43 2003 From: ttrail@moscow.com (Tom Trail) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:07:43 -0800 Subject: [Vision2020] ] Interesting Numbers Message-ID: >Visionaries; > > >The link below takes you to the article in Fortune Magazine where this list >first appeared. It was part of a series of articles on big businesses which >are "going green" as a profit strategy; the links to the related articles >are also accessible from this link. Please forward to any others you think >might be interested. > >http://www.fortune.com/fortune/smallbusiness/articles/0,15114,456226,00.html > >A Green World by the Numbers >FORTUNE SMALL BUSINESS >Wednesday, June 4, 2003 > >If Americans unplugged their televisions when they turned them off, they'd >save 8.45 billion kilowatt hours of electricity a year. That's twice the >amount produced by the Hoover Dam. National Resource Defense Council; >Department of the Interior If SUVs complied with the same fuel-economy >standards as ordinary cars, the U.S. would save one million barrels of oil a >day, more than the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge could produce at peak >volume. New York Times Recycling one aluminum can saves enough energy to >light a 100-watt light bulb for 3.5 hours. Can Manufacturers Institute On >average, a homeowner with an automatic sprinkler system overwaters his lawn >by 112,000 gallons a year. Metropolitan Water District of Southern >California Sixty-five million trees are cut down to make the 500 pieces of >junk mail sent each year to every person in the country. New Hampshire >Department of Environmental Services A family of four can save up to 20,000 >gallons of water a year--the amount needed to fill an average-sized swimming >pool--by using a low-flow showerhead. National Resource Defense Council If >all the cordless phones and answering machines sold in the U.S. in the next >ten years were Energy Star-certified, consumers would save $4.4 billion in >electricity bills. U.S. Department of Energy Replacing a single incandescent >light bulb with a compact fluorescent bulb saves more than $50 in energy >costs and reduces carbon dioxide emissions by nearly half a ton. Minnesota >Pollution Control Agency Recycling two gallons of used motor oil provides >enough electricity to cook 48 meals in a microwave oven. Utah Department of >Environmental Quality Skylights make it more difficult for your air >conditioner to cool your house; a two-by-four-foot clear glass skylight >requires 240 extra kilowatt hours of electricity every year, enough to run >the average television. California Energy Commission, National Renewable >Energy Laboratory Forty percent of the country's lakes and rivers are >unsuitable for fishing or swimming. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency The >Department of Energy has introduced an initiative to encourage the >installation of solar energy systems on one million roofs by 2010. If >successful, it will reduce carbon emissions every year by an amount equal to >that produced by 850,000 cars. U.S. Department of Energy Compared with the >average car, an SUV getting 13 miles a gallon wastes as much energy each >year as leaving a bathroom light on for 30 years. Sierra Club Underinflated >car tires reduce fuel efficiency, wasting up to two billion gallons of >gasoline a year. Seattle City Light Scientists predict that if global >warming continues at its present rate, by 2030 there will be no more >glaciers in Montana's Glacier National Park. National Wetlands Research >Center, U.S. Geological Survey > >Originally from: >Lynn Helbrecht >Sustainability Coordinator >Washington Governor's Executive Policy Office > > >Rep. Tom Trail -- Dr. Tom Trail International Trails 1375 Mt. View Rd. Moscow, Id. 83843 Tel: (208) 882-6077 Fax: (208) 882-0896 e mail ttrail@moscow.com From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Tue Jul 8 16:03:34 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 08:03:34 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games Message-ID: I was watching the Newshour on PBS last night, and saw a segment on violent video games that opened my eyes. I'm a 52 year old liberal Democrat that owns an Xbox and a Playstation 2, but my gaming is limited to golf, baseball, football, and occasionally bowling and pool. I've only been peripherally aware of the other, violent genres out there, until last night. They spotlighted two games, one of which awards points for killing policemen, and also gives you the opportunity to have sex with prostitutes, and then kill them. After you kill them, you can decapitate them, if you wish. In the other game, one of the ways you can kill someone is to pour gasoline on them, set them on fire, and then, if you want, urinate on the burning corpse. The graphics are quite lifelike. This ain't Pong. I'm certainly no prude, but I was rather stunned when the segment was finished. The gist of the story was an attempt in Washington state to ban games featuring the killing of police. Are these games ultimately harmless, and is this much ado about nothing? Or are they just wrong? If they are wrong, what do we as a society do? Is banning an answer? Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Tue Jul 8 16:08:58 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 08:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Article: "Jesus Christ: The Only Solution To Poverty" Message-ID: <20030708150858.28130.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1560708418-1057676938=:25727 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jesus Christ: The Only Solution To Poverty It is two days after July 4th. I am sitting in a neighborhood park in Minneapolis, where The Gospel Light Baptist Church is having its annual picnic. It is a very small church, maybe forty-five people in all. And the pastors have the courage of Christ to open their doors to all who will enter. Saturday is another day in the lives of Minneapolis’ homeless: They wander the city looking for handouts and drug dealers. Come Sunday –which is today- they grab sandwiches from the back of a truck parked on Currie Street, down near the bus station. The owner of the vehicle is a good samaritan, who does more than his share to feed the poor. Too many homeless men have fallen through the cracks, and yet, there is always the hope that Jesus Christ will one day shine in their eyes, too. Christ is the only solution to poverty. Minnesota is a great example of why anything else ultimately fails. For years, this bustling, midwestern metropolis defined itself as a place for blue-collar opportunity. It gave away low-rent apartments to laborers from the South, who paid attention to where the jobs were in the 1960s and early 70s. In fact, Minneapolis avoided the cyclical downturns of more popular cities like New York and Chicago, only because of its insistence that everyone who could work should be asked to work. And so it went, the Twin Cities became a place where everything seemed to go right, and it maintained that image right through the economic downturn in 2001. And still, it took about two more years for the reality of the current recession to hit home, because Minnesota earmarked billions of dollars for working families, and provided a safety net for the unemployed. But if three words could sum up what Minneapolis –the apple of Minnesota’s eye- is encountering now, it would have to be said that “Only Christ Succeeds.” State social service programs are failing; single mothers and their children are suddenly winding up homeless; and, able-bodied men are giving up hope for something better than chronic life on the streets. And yet, as the secular solutions to poverty continue to fail, there are rays of hope still shining brightly in the Twin Cities. Three in particular, are worth mentioning here: They are 1) The Union Gospel Mission in St. Paul; 2) Mary Jo’s Place in Minneapolis; 3) and, the outreach ministry to the poor at The Gospel Light Baptist Church, also in Minneapolis. All of these serve the poor in a Christ-centered manner. In St. Paul, the mission there offers two catered meals a day, excellent living arrangements and ample opportunities for men to come to know Jesus Christ. This professionally-run facility seems to double as a community center, with volunteers singing the mission’s praises for a high-level of respect given to each and every man who stays there. Mary Jo’s Place in Minneapolis is a miracle where it’s needed most. The day center feeds over 350 people daily, offers them clothing and gives them a sense of welcome, unlike any large facility for the poor in all of Minneapolis. Mary Jo, who works daily at this multi-million dollar instrument of God, is a legend in her own right, and is currently raising money for a new orphanage nearby. Finally, for men who want a roof over their heads and a church community, there is The Gospel Light Baptist Church. Small in size, but extra-large in heart, The Gospel Light Baptist Church recruits men from the streets to live in one of their transitional homes, and learn Christian living principles. The three rays of hope all are Christ-centered in their approach to poverty. *** I’m still in Minneapolis, now at the bus station waiting to go back West towards Idaho. Often, I think about the millions of Christians who trust all the different charities with their generous donations. And now that I’ve been to Minneapolis/St. Paul to experience what men in poverty go through on a daily basis, I’d have to say that 80-85% of the money donated to Twin Cities charities never directly benefits the neediest homeless men, who are living on the streets. And so I offer this article as a sort of letter of introduction for myself and as a reference for three charities that are getting the job done for poor people, every day. I encourage you to consider directing your donations to either the UGM St. Paul, Mary Jo’s Place and The Gospel Light Baptist Church or directly to homeless people themselves in the form of long-term housing. Jesus Christ is the only solution to poverty, and what better way to help the poor than to help them in the way Christ would have? In the spirit, in basic needs, in love and compassion. May God bless you and your family. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Moscow, ID/Pullman, WA) e-mail: dstambler_christian_writer@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1560708418-1057676938=:25727 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Jesus Christ: The Only Solution To Poverty

 

It is two days after July 4th.  I am sitting in a neighborhood park in Minneapolis, where The Gospel Light Baptist Church is having its annual picnic.  It is a very small church, maybe forty-five people in all.  And the pastors have the courage of Christ to open their doors to all who will enter.  Saturday is another day in the lives of Minneapolis’ homeless: They wander the city looking for handouts and drug dealers.  Come Sunday –which is today- they grab sandwiches from the back of a truck parked on Currie Street, down near the bus station.  The owner of the vehicle is a good samaritan, who does more than his share to fe! ed the poor.  Too many homeless men have fallen through the cracks, and yet, there is always the hope that Jesus Christ will one day shine in their eyes, too.

 

Christ is the only solution to poverty.  Minnesota is a great example of why anything else ultimately fails.  For years, this bustling, midwestern metropolis defined itself as a place for blue-collar opportunity.  It gave away low-rent apartments to laborers from the South, who paid attention to where the jobs were in the 1960s and early 70s.  In fact, Minneapolis avoided the cyclical downturns of more popular cities like New York and Chicago, only because of its insistence that everyone who could work should be asked to work.  And so it went, the Twin Cities became a place where everything seemed to go right, and it maintained that image right through the economic downturn in 2001.  And still, it took about two more years for the reality of the current recession to hit home, because Minnesota earmarked billions of dollars for working families, and provided a safety net for the unemployed.

 

But if three words could sum up what Minneapolis –the apple of Minnesota’s eye- is encountering now, it would have to be said that “Only Christ Succeeds.”  State social service programs are failing; single mothers and their children are suddenly winding up homeless; and, able-bodied men are giving up hope for something better than chronic life on the streets.  And yet, as the secular solutions to poverty continue to fail, there are rays of hope still shining brightly in the Twin Cities.  Three in particular, are worth mentioning here: They are 1) The Union Gospel Mission in St. Paul; 2) Mary Jo’s Place in Minneapolis; 3) and, the outreach ministry to the poor at The Gospel Light Baptist Church, also in Minneapolis.

 

All of these serve the poor in a Christ-centered manner.  In St. Paul, the mission there offers two catered meals a day, excellent living arrangements and ample opportunities for men to come to know Jesus Christ.  This professionally-run facility seems to double as a community center, with volunteers singing the mission’s praises for a high-level of respect given to each and every man who stays there.  Mary Jo’s Place in Minneapolis is a miracle where it’s needed most.  The day center feeds over 350 people daily, offers them clothing and gives them a sense of welcome, unlike any large facility for the poor in all of Minneapolis.  Mary Jo, who works daily at this multi-million d! ollar instrument of God, is a legend in her own right, and is currently raising money for a new orphanage nearby.  Finally, for men who want a roof over their heads and a church community, there is The Gospel Light Baptist Church.  Small in size, but extra-large in heart, The Gospel Light Baptist Church recruits men from the streets to live in one of their transitional homes, and learn Christian living principles.  The three rays of hope all are Christ-centered in their approach to poverty.

 

***

 

I’m still in Minneapolis, now at the bus station waiting to go back West towards Idaho.  Often, I think about the millions of Christians who trust all the different charities with their generous donations.  And now that I’ve been to Minneapolis/St. Paul to experience what men in poverty go through on a daily basis, I’d have to say that 80-85% of the money donated to Twin Cities charities never directly benefits the neediest homeless men, who are living on the streets.  And so I offer this article as a sort of letter of introduction for myself and as a reference for three charities that are getting the job done for poor people, every day.  I encourage you to consider directing your donations to either the UGM St. Paul, Ma! ry Jo’s Place and The Gospel Light Baptist Church or directly to homeless people themselves in the form of long-term housing.

 

Jesus Christ is the only solution to poverty, and what better way to help the poor than to help them in the way Christ would have?  In the spirit, in basic needs, in love and compassion.

 

May God bless you and your family.

 

In Christ,

Douglas Stambler

(Moscow, ID/Pullman, WA)

 

e-mail: dstambler_christian_writer@yahoo.com

 

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1560708418-1057676938=:25727-- From predator75@moscow.com Tue Jul 8 16:12:58 2003 From: predator75@moscow.com (Dan Carscallen) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 08:12:58 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games References: Message-ID: <006601c34563$7fbbaa70$831da13f@MOSCOW1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C34528.BE38AEA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know much about said "cop killing" games, but I do know that the = best game out there right now is ATV off-road fury 2. To the banners I say, let the parents do some parenting. I would think = a little common sense would take care of a lot of problems. DC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Carl Westberg=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:03 AM Subject: [Vision2020] Video games I was watching the Newshour on PBS last night, and saw a segment on = violent=20 video games that opened my eyes. I'm a 52 year old liberal Democrat = that=20 owns an Xbox and a Playstation 2, but my gaming is limited to golf,=20 baseball, football, and occasionally bowling and pool. I've only been=20 peripherally aware of the other, violent genres out there, until last = night.=20 They spotlighted two games, one of which awards points for killing=20 policemen, and also gives you the opportunity to have sex with = prostitutes,=20 and then kill them. After you kill them, you can decapitate them, if = you=20 wish. In the other game, one of the ways you can kill someone is to = pour=20 gasoline on them, set them on fire, and then, if you want, urinate on = the=20 burning corpse. The graphics are quite lifelike. This ain't Pong. I'm = certainly no prude, but I was rather stunned when the segment was = finished. =20 The gist of the story was an attempt in Washington state to ban games=20 featuring the killing of police. Are these games ultimately harmless, = and=20 is this much ado about nothing? Or are they just wrong? If they are = wrong,=20 what do we as a society do? Is banning an answer? = =20 = =20 = =20 = =20 Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* =20 http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/junkmail _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet,=20 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. =20 http://www.fsr.net =20 mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C34528.BE38AEA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't know much about said "cop killing" games, but I do know = that the=20 best game out there right now is ATV off-road fury 2.
 
To the banners I say, let the parents do some parenting.  I = would=20 think a little common sense would take care of a lot of problems.
 
DC
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Carl=20 Westberg
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:03 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] Video games

I was watching the Newshour on PBS last night, and saw a = segment=20 on violent
video games that opened my eyes.  I'm a 52 year old = liberal=20 Democrat that
owns an Xbox and a Playstation 2, but my gaming is = limited to=20 golf,
baseball, football, and occasionally bowling and pool.  = I've only=20 been
peripherally aware of the other, violent genres out there, = until last=20 night.
  They spotlighted two games, one of which awards points = for=20 killing
policemen, and also gives you the opportunity to have sex = with=20 prostitutes,
and then kill them.  After you kill them, you can=20 decapitate them, if you
wish.  In the other game, one of the = ways you=20 can kill someone is to pour
gasoline on them, set them on fire, and = then, if=20 you want, urinate on the
burning corpse.  The graphics are = quite=20 lifelike.  This ain't Pong.  I'm
certainly no prude, but I = was=20 rather stunned when the segment was finished. 
The gist of the = story=20 was an attempt in Washington state to ban games
featuring the = killing of=20 police.  Are these games ultimately harmless, and
is this much = ado=20 about nothing?  Or are they just wrong?  If they are wrong, =
what=20 do we as a society do?  Is banning an=20 answer?           =             &= nbsp;  =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;   =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;   =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;   =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p; =20 Carl Westberg=20 Jr.

______________________________________________________________= ___
The=20 new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* 
http://join.msn.co= m/?page=3Dfeatures/junkmail

__________________________________= ___________________
 List=20 services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the=20 communities of the Palouse since 1994.  =20
           &nb= sp;  =20 http://www.fsr.net    = ;            =       =20
          mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF
------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C34528.BE38AEA0-- From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jul 8 16:37:54 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 08:37:54 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Very good question, Mr. Westberg. It is my impression that these games tend to separate the "killer" from the "killing" on an interactive level. The "killer" does not feel any remorse or guilt about the person he/she "killed". This (ultimately) can develop into something scarier than any Stephen King novel. Yet, the commercial enterprises should be permitted to manufacture and sell products that are not illegal. Recall that "immoral" has nothing to do with "illegal". Communities may define "immoral" behavior. But, the bottom line is that parents must assume a large degree of responsibility for not releasing crazed assassins into that community. Just some thoughts, Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Carl Westberg > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:04 AM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: [Vision2020] Video games > > > I was watching the Newshour on PBS last night, and saw a segment > on violent > video games that opened my eyes. I'm a 52 year old liberal Democrat that > owns an Xbox and a Playstation 2, but my gaming is limited to golf, > baseball, football, and occasionally bowling and pool. I've only been > peripherally aware of the other, violent genres out there, until > last night. > They spotlighted two games, one of which awards points for killing > policemen, and also gives you the opportunity to have sex with > prostitutes, > and then kill them. After you kill them, you can decapitate them, if you > wish. In the other game, one of the ways you can kill someone is to pour > gasoline on them, set them on fire, and then, if you want, urinate on the > burning corpse. The graphics are quite lifelike. This ain't Pong. I'm > certainly no prude, but I was rather stunned when the segment was > finished. > The gist of the story was an attempt in Washington state to ban games > featuring the killing of police. Are these games ultimately > harmless, and > is this much ado about nothing? Or are they just wrong? If they > are wrong, > what do we as a society do? Is banning an answer? > > > > > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From shawnc@outtrack.com Tue Jul 8 18:12:02 2003 From: shawnc@outtrack.com (Shawn Clabough) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:12:02 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games Message-ID: <89B16A73680AD31194A30090274FFC422E88C6@cdsl010.cda.spro.net> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34574.0C8D5E20 Content-Type: text/plain The tough part of this equation is where the parents that should be "parenting" their child away from this material don't care enough to, then that child goes out and does something to a child that was actively "parented". How can society prevent this proactively? An active parent and gamer, Shawn Clabough -----Original Message----- From: Dan Carscallen [mailto:predator75@moscow.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:13 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Video games I don't know much about said "cop killing" games, but I do know that the best game out there right now is ATV off-road fury 2. To the banners I say, let the parents do some parenting. I would think a little common sense would take care of a lot of problems. DC ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Westberg To: vision2020@moscow.com Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:03 AM Subject: [Vision2020] Video games I was watching the Newshour on PBS last night, and saw a segment on violent video games that opened my eyes. I'm a 52 year old liberal Democrat that owns an Xbox and a Playstation 2, but my gaming is limited to golf, baseball, football, and occasionally bowling and pool. I've only been peripherally aware of the other, violent genres out there, until last night. They spotlighted two games, one of which awards points for killing policemen, and also gives you the opportunity to have sex with prostitutes, and then kill them. After you kill them, you can decapitate them, if you wish. In the other game, one of the ways you can kill someone is to pour gasoline on them, set them on fire, and then, if you want, urinate on the burning corpse. The graphics are quite lifelike. This ain't Pong. I'm certainly no prude, but I was rather stunned when the segment was finished. The gist of the story was an attempt in Washington state to ban games featuring the killing of police. Are these games ultimately harmless, and is this much ado about nothing? Or are they just wrong? If they are wrong, what do we as a society do? Is banning an answer? ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34574.0C8D5E20 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
The=20 tough part of this equation is where the parents that should be = "parenting"=20 their child away from this material don't care enough to, then that = child goes=20 out and does something to a child that was actively "parented".  = How can=20 society prevent this proactively?
 
An=20 active parent and gamer,
Shawn=20 Clabough
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan = Carscallen=20 [mailto:predator75@moscow.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, = 2003 8:13=20 AM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: = [Vision2020]=20 Video games

I don't know much about said "cop killing" games, but I do know = that the=20 best game out there right now is ATV off-road fury 2.
 
To the banners I say, let the parents do some parenting.  I = would=20 think a little common sense would take care of a lot of = problems.
 
DC
 
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:03 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] Video games

I was watching the Newshour on PBS last night, and saw = a=20 segment on violent
video games that opened my eyes.  I'm a = 52 year=20 old liberal Democrat that
owns an Xbox and a Playstation 2, but = my gaming=20 is limited to golf,
baseball, football, and occasionally bowling = and=20 pool.  I've only been
peripherally aware of the other, = violent genres=20 out there, until last night.
  They spotlighted two games, = one of=20 which awards points for killing
policemen, and also gives you the = opportunity to have sex with prostitutes,
and then kill = them.  After=20 you kill them, you can decapitate them, if you
wish.  In the = other=20 game, one of the ways you can kill someone is to pour
gasoline on = them,=20 set them on fire, and then, if you want, urinate on the
burning=20 corpse.  The graphics are quite lifelike.  This ain't = Pong. =20 I'm
certainly no prude, but I was rather stunned when the segment = was=20 finished. 
The gist of the story was an attempt in = Washington state=20 to ban games
featuring the killing of police.  Are these = games=20 ultimately harmless, and
is this much ado about nothing?  Or = are they=20 just wrong?  If they are wrong,
what do we as a society = do?  Is=20 banning an=20 = answer?           = ;            = ;    
       &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;        =20
------_=_NextPart_001_01C34574.0C8D5E20-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Tue Jul 8 18:49:45 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Article: "The Other Way You Need To Know" Message-ID: <20030708174945.11670.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> --0-700767470-1057686585=:10054 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The Other Way You Need To Know Christopher Columbus is not my idea of a hero. Every mainstream history book in America protects us from knowing who he truly was: A murderer; a thief; a rapist. But telling the truth is not America’s forte. So, let me lay it down for you like this: All the Native Americans did live better before the Europeans got their hands on North America. There was another way of living in your place, that we should all become acquainted with. There was another way of living in this place, now called The United States of America. That way of life was spiritually, economically and socially superior to modern-day American society. Moscow, Idaho is a clear example of how the descendants of Europeans confused homesteading with what really occurred there: an illegal occupation of land that was already settled by another people. Home is what people today call the land known as Moscow, Idaho, however, no reasonable individual would deny all historical indicators and the obvious signs of moral failure that obviously point to the eventual reclaiming of that stolen land by the Native Americans, who lived in that place for at least three-thousand years prior to the bully-techniques of homesteaders, which temporarily overthrew them from their sacred lands. Of course, once the United States is completely returned to the Native Americans, it will thrive again like it should have since Columbus arrived. That’s not to say that this will be an easy task: “White” people in places like Moscow, Idaho have a false sense of ownership and a weak loyalty to community, so any land reclamation actions are likely to get violent if “whites” feel any legitimate challenge to their “racial superiority,” which to them justifies the occupation of Native American land in the first place. While “white people” in Moscow, Idaho would deny their collective, racist heritage, it is obvious to historians and novice scholars, that these people are in some deep denial about who they really are: unwanted occupants of sacred ground. That’s not to say that the current occupants of Moscow, Idaho would completely reject the return of Native American culture to their town. But at least a few changes would have to occur before all the remnants of a devious, “white” culture could be permanently removed from the area. 1) The current occupants would have to admit their inability to manage the area’s natural resources in a sustainable way; 2) Native Americans would have to be offered free or reduced tuition at the University of Idaho (in Moscow, Idaho); 3) the local historical society would be more honest about the longevity of native culture in that area; 4) and, local government would have to give up a representative governing strategy, and switch over to time-honored, tribal forms of government. Only when these four changes occur, will Moscow, Idaho be on the track to becoming the place it once was and should be again: A gathering place for a multitude of people, who seek to increase and perfect an agraria! n way of life. Throughout the United States, similar changes will be an indication that the land is returning to its rightful “owners”: the Native Americans. How long can Americans of conscience stand by and watch as the “white mentality” continues to permit and encourage the destruction of all life, everywhere in the United States? The only way into the future for America is to deliberately turn over management responsibilities of all the land to Native American nations who can sustain it properly. No one will even remember the “accident of Columbus and all that followed,” once this is finally done correctly. It needs to happen. It will happen. We have no choice. Let’s start moving in that direction today. Give America back to the indigenous people – all of it. In sum, there are going to be a lot of “white” people unhappy in all this change. But it’s worth it: After all the wrongs done by “white” people here in America, giving the land back to the Native Americans is one thing “they” can finally get right. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Moscow, ID/Pullman, WA) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-700767470-1057686585=:10054 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

The Other Way You Need To Know

 

Christopher Columbus is not my idea of a hero.  Every mainstream history book in America protects us from knowing who he truly was: A murderer; a thief; a rapist.  But telling the truth is not America’s forte.  So, let me lay it down for you like this: All the Native Americans did live better before the Europeans got their hands on North America.  There was another way of living in your place, that we should all become acquainted with.  There was another way of living in this place, now called The United States of America.  That way of life was spiritually, economically and socially superior to modern-day American society.

 

Moscow, Idaho is a clear example of how the descendants of Europeans confused homesteading with what really occurred there: an illegal occupation of land that was already settled by another people.  Home is what people today call the land known as Moscow, Idaho, however, no reasonable individual would deny all historical indicators and the obvious signs of moral failure that obviously point to the eventual reclaiming of that stolen land by the Native Americans, who lived in that place for at least three-thousand years prior to the bully-techniques of homesteaders, which temporarily overthrew them from their sacred lands.

 

Of course, once the United States is completely returned to the Native Americans, it will thrive again like it should have since Columbus arrived.  That’s not to say that this will be an easy task: “White” people in places like Moscow, Idaho have a false sense of ownership and a weak loyalty to community, so any land reclamation actions are likely to get violent if “whites” feel any legitimate challenge to their “racial superiority,” which to them justifies the occupation of Native American land in the first place.  While “white people” in Moscow, Idaho would deny their collective, racist heritage, it is obvious to historians and novice scholars, that these people are in some deep denial about who they really are: unwanted occupants of sacred ground.

 

That’s not to say that the current occupants of Moscow, Idaho would completely reject the return of Native American culture to their town.  But at least a few changes would have to occur before all the remnants of a devious, “white” culture could be permanently removed from the area.  1) The current occupants would have to admit their inability to manage the area’s natural resources in a sustainable way; 2) Native Americans would have to be offered free or reduced tuition at the University of Idaho (in Moscow, Idaho); 3) the local historical society would be more honest about the longevity of native culture in that area; 4) and, local government would have to give up a representative governing strategy, and switch over to time-honored, tribal forms of government.  Only when these four changes occur, will Moscow, Idaho be on the track to becoming the place it once was and should be again: A gathering place for a multitude of people, who seek to increase and perfect an agrarian way of life.

 

Throughout the United States, similar changes will be an indication that the land is returning to its rightful “owners”: the Native Americans.  How long can Americans of conscience stand by and watch as the “white mentality” continues to permit and encourage the destruction of all life, everywhere in the United States?  The only way into the future for America is to deliberately turn over management responsibilities of all the land to Native American nations who can sustain it properly.  No one will even remember the “accident of Columbus and all that followed,” once this is finally done correctly.  It needs to happen.  It will happen.  We have no choice.  Let’s start moving in that direction today.  Give America back to the indigenous people – all of it.

 

In sum, there are going to be a lot of “white” people unhappy in all this change.  But it’s worth it: After all the wrongs done by “white” people here in America, giving the land back to the Native Americans is one thing “they” can finally get right.

 

In Christ,

Douglas Stambler

(Moscow, ID/Pullman, WA)

 

 

 

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-700767470-1057686585=:10054-- From bentwigg@yahoo.com Tue Jul 8 19:35:41 2003 From: bentwigg@yahoo.com (Ben Twigg) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow United youth soccer Message-ID: <20030708183541.27223.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> The Moscow United Soccer Club is currently accepting registration for its youth competitive teams for the fall season. All players who were born between August 2, 1989 and August 1, 1993 are eligible to register. More information about the club and registration is available at http://community.palouse.net/moscow_united Moscow United is also seeking volunteer coaches (both head and assistant) for micro and competitive teams. If you or someone you know is interested in coaching youth soccer, please contact me. Thank you. Ben Twigg __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From sslund@moscow.com Tue Jul 8 20:02:33 2003 From: sslund@moscow.com (Saundra Lund) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:02:33 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games In-Reply-To: <89B16A73680AD31194A30090274FFC422E88C6@cdsl010.cda.spro.net> Message-ID: <00a701c34583$7d5d3a80$6501a8c0@pooh> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C34548.D0FE6280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I absolutely agree. It's a tough question, for sure. Being about as much of a bleeding heart liberal :-) as possible, I'm against banning. However, I'm a big advocate of personal responsibility: kids need to be responsible, parents need to be responsible, artists need to be responsible, corporations need to be responsible, retailers need to be responsible, and communities need to be responsible. I think a good start is for everyone (including artists, manufacturers, and retailers) to remember that the almighty dollar isn't the "be all & end all." The Daily News had an article recently about video games, and I was impressed & heartened to read that some kids are just saying "No" to violent games. But, for the kids who aren't, it's a very scary thing, I think. And, it seems to me that for some, making money rather than thinking of the effects of such vile trash (subjective, I know) on kids is more important. Sad, sad state of affairs, I think, but nothing new. Saundra Lund Moscow, Idaho The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. Edmund Burke -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Shawn Clabough Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 10:12 AM To: 'vision2020@moscow.com' Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games The tough part of this equation is where the parents that should be "parenting" their child away from this material don't care enough to, then that child goes out and does something to a child that was actively "parented". How can society prevent this proactively? An active parent and gamer, Shawn Clabough -----Original Message----- From: Dan Carscallen [mailto:predator75@moscow.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:13 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Video games I don't know much about said "cop killing" games, but I do know that the best game out there right now is ATV off-road fury 2. To the banners I say, let the parents do some parenting. I would think a little common sense would take care of a lot of problems. DC ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Westberg To: vision2020@moscow.com Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:03 AM Subject: [Vision2020] Video games I was watching the Newshour on PBS last night, and saw a segment on violent video games that opened my eyes. I'm a 52 year old liberal Democrat that owns an Xbox and a Playstation 2, but my gaming is limited to golf, baseball, football, and occasionally bowling and pool. I've only been peripherally aware of the other, violent genres out there, until last night. They spotlighted two games, one of which awards points for killing policemen, and also gives you the opportunity to have sex with prostitutes, and then kill them. After you kill them, you can decapitate them, if you wish. In the other game, one of the ways you can kill someone is to pour gasoline on them, set them on fire, and then, if you want, urinate on the burning corpse. The graphics are quite lifelike. This ain't Pong. I'm certainly no prude, but I was rather stunned when the segment was finished. The gist of the story was an attempt in Washington state to ban games featuring the killing of police. Are these games ultimately harmless, and is this much ado about nothing? Or are they just wrong? If they are wrong, what do we as a society do? Is banning an answer? ------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C34548.D0FE6280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
I absolutely=20 agree.
 
It's a tough = question, for=20 sure.  Being about as much of a bleeding heart liberal :-) as = possible, I'm=20 against banning.  However, I'm a big advocate of personal=20 responsibility:  kids need to be responsible, parents need to be=20 responsible, artists need to be responsible, corporations need to be=20 responsible, retailers need to be responsible, and communities need to = be=20 responsible.
 
I think a good = start is for=20 everyone (including artists, manufacturers, and retailers) to remember = that the=20 almighty dollar isn't the "be all & end all."
 
The Daily News = had an=20 article recently about video games, and I was impressed & heartened = to read=20 that some kids are just saying "No" to violent = games.
 
But, for the = kids who=20 aren't, it's a very scary thing, I think.  And, it seems to me that = for=20 some, making money rather than thinking of the effects of such vile = trash=20 (subjective, I know) on kids is more important.
 
Sad, sad state = of affairs,=20 I think, but nothing new.
 
 
Saundra=20 Lund
Moscow, Idaho

The only thing necessary for the = triumph of=20 evil is for good people to do nothing.
Edmund = Burke
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Shawn=20 Clabough
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 10:12 AM
To:=20 'vision2020@moscow.com'
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video=20 games

The=20 tough part of this equation is where the parents that should be = "parenting"=20 their child away from this material don't care enough to, then that = child goes=20 out and does something to a child that was actively "parented".  = How can=20 society prevent this proactively?
 
An=20 active parent and gamer,
Shawn=20 Clabough
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan = Carscallen=20 [mailto:predator75@moscow.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 = 8:13=20 AM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: = [Vision2020]=20 Video games

I don't know much about said "cop killing" games, but I do know = that the=20 best game out there right now is ATV off-road fury 2.
 
To the banners I say, let the parents do some parenting.  I = would=20 think a little common sense would take care of a lot of = problems.
 
DC
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Carl Westberg
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:03 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] Video games

I = was watching=20 the Newshour on PBS last night, and saw a segment on violent
video = games=20 that opened my eyes.  I'm a 52 year old liberal Democrat that =
owns an=20 Xbox and a Playstation 2, but my gaming is limited to golf, =
baseball,=20 football, and occasionally bowling and pool.  I've only been=20
peripherally aware of the other, violent genres out there, until = last=20 night.
  They spotlighted two games, one of which awards = points for=20 killing
policemen, and also gives you the opportunity to have sex = with=20 prostitutes,
and then kill them.  After you kill them, you = can=20 decapitate them, if you
wish.  In the other game, one of the = ways you=20 can kill someone is to pour
gasoline on them, set them on fire, = and then,=20 if you want, urinate on the
burning corpse.  The graphics are = quite=20 lifelike.  This ain't Pong.  I'm
certainly no prude, but = I was=20 rather stunned when the segment was finished. 
The gist of = the story=20 was an attempt in Washington state to ban games
featuring the = killing of=20 police.  Are these games ultimately harmless, and
is this = much ado=20 about nothing?  Or are they just wrong?  If they are wrong, =
what=20 do we as a society do?  Is banning an=20 = answer?           =             &= nbsp;   
       &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;       =20
------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C34548.D0FE6280-- From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 8 20:40:29 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:40:29 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games In-Reply-To: <89B16A73680AD31194A30090274FFC422E88C6@cdsl010.cda.spro.net> Message-ID: <006001c34588$c9f3c210$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C3454E.1D94EA10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When these questions arise, I always revert back to the question: whose jurisdiction is it? In the case of children, it is the jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of the parents to deal with such matters.=20 =20 "Society" deals with the consequences of both good parenting and bad parenting. However, it is not up to society to legislatively intervene because of a few bad apples.=20 =20 The typical knee-jerk reaction is to object to a few and to pass = legislation that forces parents to conform to our preferences.=20 =20 However, in a "free" society with freedoms and responsibilities, the authority needs to remain with the governing jurisdiction.=20 =20 Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of Shawn Clabough Sent: Tuesday, 08 July, 2003 10:12 To: 'vision2020@moscow.com' Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games The tough part of this equation is where the parents that should be "parenting" their child away from this material don't care enough to, = then that child goes out and does something to a child that was actively "parented". How can society prevent this proactively? =20 An active parent and gamer, Shawn Clabough ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C3454E.1D94EA10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
When=20 these questions arise, I always revert back to the question: whose = jurisdiction=20 is it? In the case of children, it is the jurisdiction, = authority, and=20 responsibility of the parents to deal with such matters. =
 
"Society" deals with the consequences of both = good=20 parenting and bad parenting. However, it is not up to = society to=20 legislatively intervene because of a few bad apples. =
 
The=20 typical knee-jerk reaction is to object to a few and to pass legislation = that=20 forces parents to conform to our preferences.
 
However, in a "free" society with freedoms and = responsibilities, the=20 authority needs to remain with the governing jurisdiction. =
 
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On = Behalf=20 Of Shawn Clabough
Sent: Tuesday, 08 July, 2003=20 10:12
To: 'vision2020@moscow.com'
Subject: RE:=20 [Vision2020] Video games

The=20 tough part of this equation is where the parents that should be = "parenting"=20 their child away from this material don't care enough to, then that = child goes=20 out and does something to a child that was actively "parented".  = How can=20 society prevent this proactively?
 
An=20 active parent and gamer,
Shawn Clabough
------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C3454E.1D94EA10-- From predator75@moscow.com Tue Jul 8 20:46:42 2003 From: predator75@moscow.com (Dan Carscallen) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:46:42 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games References: <006001c34588$c9f3c210$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: <011101c34589$a7f4cbe0$831da13f@MOSCOW1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010E_01C3454E.FB2D1FF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageThat's what I was gonna say . . . or I said, or something like = that . . . (tongue firmly planted in cheek, but amazingly agreeing with Dale on = something) DC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dale Courtney=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:40 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games When these questions arise, I always revert back to the question: whose = jurisdiction is it? In the case of children, it is the jurisdiction, = authority, and responsibility of the parents to deal with such matters.=20 "Society" deals with the consequences of both good parenting and bad = parenting. However, it is not up to society to legislatively intervene = because of a few bad apples.=20 The typical knee-jerk reaction is to object to a few and to pass = legislation that forces parents to conform to our preferences.=20 However, in a "free" society with freedoms and responsibilities, the = authority needs to remain with the governing jurisdiction.=20 Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of Shawn Clabough Sent: Tuesday, 08 July, 2003 10:12 To: 'vision2020@moscow.com' Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games The tough part of this equation is where the parents that should be = "parenting" their child away from this material don't care enough to, = then that child goes out and does something to a child that was actively = "parented". How can society prevent this proactively? An active parent and gamer, Shawn Clabough ------=_NextPart_000_010E_01C3454E.FB2D1FF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
That's what I = was gonna say=20 . . . or I said, or something like that . . .
 
(tongue = firmly planted in=20 cheek, but amazingly agreeing with Dale on something)
DC
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Dale = Courtney
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:40 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games

When=20 these questions arise, I always revert back to the question: whose = jurisdiction=20 is it? In the case of children, it is the jurisdiction, = authority, and=20 responsibility of the parents to deal with such matters. =
 
"Society" deals with the consequences of both = good=20 parenting and bad parenting. However, it is not up to = society to=20 legislatively intervene because of a few bad apples. =
 
The=20 typical knee-jerk reaction is to object to a few and to pass legislation = that=20 forces parents to conform to our preferences.
 
However, in a "free" society with freedoms and = responsibilities, the=20 authority needs to remain with the governing jurisdiction. =
 
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On = Behalf=20 Of Shawn Clabough
Sent: Tuesday, 08 July, 2003=20 10:12
To: 'vision2020@moscow.com'
Subject: RE:=20 [Vision2020] Video games

The=20 tough part of this equation is where the parents that should be = "parenting"=20 their child away from this material don't care enough to, then that = child goes=20 out and does something to a child that was actively "parented".  = How can=20 society prevent this proactively?
 
An=20 active parent and gamer,
Shawn Clabough
------=_NextPart_000_010E_01C3454E.FB2D1FF0-- From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 8 20:55:01 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:55:01 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games In-Reply-To: <011101c34589$a7f4cbe0$831da13f@MOSCOW1> Message-ID: <007701c3458a$d1a8cd50$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01C34550.2549F550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan, =20 Well, a point of agreement is always a place to start.=20 =20 Now, let's move that point of agreement one step further. I'm going to substitute "video games" with education/schooling:=20 When these questions arise, I always revert back to the question: whose jurisdiction is it? In the case of children's education, it is the jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of the parents to deal with = such matters.=20 "Society" deals with the consequences of both good parenting and bad educational choices. However, it is not up to society to legislatively intervene because of a few bad apples.=20 The typical knee-jerk reaction is to object to a few and to pass = legislation that forces parents to conform to our preferences.=20 However, in a "free" society with freedoms and responsibilities, the authority needs to remain with the governing jurisdiction.=20 So the jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of education rests = with the parents -- for good or bad. Does that mean everyone must homeschool? Clearly not; but the responsibility lies with the foundational = jurisdiction -- for good or ill.=20 =20 Thoughts? =20 =20 Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of Dan Carscallen Sent: Tuesday, 08 July, 2003 12:47 To: Dale Courtney; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Video games That's what I was gonna say . . . or I said, or something like that . . = . =20 (tongue firmly planted in cheek, but amazingly agreeing with Dale on something) DC =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dale Courtney =20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:40 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games When these questions arise, I always revert back to the question: whose jurisdiction is it? In the case of children, it is the jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of the parents to deal with such matters.=20 =20 "Society" deals with the consequences of both good parenting and bad parenting. However, it is not up to society to legislatively intervene because of a few bad apples.=20 =20 The typical knee-jerk reaction is to object to a few and to pass = legislation that forces parents to conform to our preferences.=20 =20 However, in a "free" society with freedoms and responsibilities, the authority needs to remain with the governing jurisdiction.=20 =20 Best, Dale ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01C34550.2549F550 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Dan,
 
Well,=20 a point of agreement is always a place to start. =
 
Now,=20 let's move that point of agreement one step further. I'm going to = substitute=20 "video games" with education/schooling:
When these questions arise, I always revert = back to=20 the question: whose jurisdiction is it? In the case of children's=20 education, it is = the=20 jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of the parents to deal = with such=20 matters.
"Society" deals with the consequences of = both good=20 parenting and bad educational choices. However, it is not up to society to = legislatively=20 intervene because of a few bad apples. =
The=20 typical knee-jerk reaction is to object to a few and to pass = legislation that=20 forces parents to conform to our preferences.
However, in a "free" society with freedoms and = responsibilities,=20 the authority needs to remain with the governing jurisdiction.=20
So the=20 jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of education rests with the = parents=20 -- for good or bad. Does that mean everyone must homeschool? = Clearly not;=20 but the responsibility lies with the foundational jurisdiction -- for = good or=20 ill. 
 
Thoughts?  
 
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On = Behalf=20 Of Dan Carscallen
Sent: Tuesday, 08 July, 2003=20 12:47
To: Dale Courtney; = vision2020@moscow.com
Subject:=20 Re: [Vision2020] Video games

That's what = I was gonna=20 say . . . or I said, or something like that . . .
 
(tongue = firmly planted in=20 cheek, but amazingly agreeing with Dale on something)
DC
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Dale = Courtney=20
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:40 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games

When=20 these questions arise, I always revert back to the question: whose=20 jurisdiction is it? In the case of children, it is the = jurisdiction,=20 authority, and responsibility of the parents to deal with such = matters.=20
 
"Society" deals with the consequences of = both good=20 parenting and bad parenting. However, it is not up to = society to=20 legislatively intervene because of a few bad apples. =
 
The=20 typical knee-jerk reaction is to object to a few and to pass = legislation that=20 forces parents to conform to our preferences.
 
However, in a "free" society with freedoms and = responsibilities,=20 the authority needs to remain with the governing jurisdiction.=20
 
Best,
Dale
------=_NextPart_000_0078_01C34550.2549F550-- From predator75@moscow.com Tue Jul 8 21:16:34 2003 From: predator75@moscow.com (Dan Carscallen) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:16:34 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games References: <007701c3458a$d1a8cd50$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: <018a01c3458d$d45c4d30$831da13f@MOSCOW1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0187_01C34553.27DE7B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Messageit always comes back to the schools, don't it . . . ;^) DC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dale Courtney=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:55 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games Dan, Well, a point of agreement is always a place to start.=20 Now, let's move that point of agreement one step further. I'm going to = substitute "video games" with education/schooling:=20 When these questions arise, I always revert back to the question: = whose jurisdiction is it? In the case of children's education, it is the = jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of the parents to deal with = such matters.=20 "Society" deals with the consequences of both good parenting and bad = educational choices. However, it is not up to society to legislatively = intervene because of a few bad apples.=20 The typical knee-jerk reaction is to object to a few and to pass = legislation that forces parents to conform to our preferences.=20 However, in a "free" society with freedoms and responsibilities, the = authority needs to remain with the governing jurisdiction.=20 So the jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of education rests = with the parents -- for good or bad. Does that mean everyone must = homeschool? Clearly not; but the responsibility lies with the = foundational jurisdiction -- for good or ill.=20 Thoughts? =20 Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of Dan Carscallen Sent: Tuesday, 08 July, 2003 12:47 To: Dale Courtney; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Video games That's what I was gonna say . . . or I said, or something like that . = . . (tongue firmly planted in cheek, but amazingly agreeing with Dale on = something) DC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dale Courtney=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:40 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games When these questions arise, I always revert back to the question: = whose jurisdiction is it? In the case of children, it is the = jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of the parents to deal with = such matters.=20 "Society" deals with the consequences of both good parenting and bad = parenting. However, it is not up to society to legislatively intervene = because of a few bad apples.=20 The typical knee-jerk reaction is to object to a few and to pass = legislation that forces parents to conform to our preferences.=20 However, in a "free" society with freedoms and responsibilities, the = authority needs to remain with the governing jurisdiction.=20 Best, Dale ------=_NextPart_000_0187_01C34553.27DE7B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
it always = comes back to the=20 schools, don't it . . . ;^)
 
DC
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Dale = Courtney
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games

Dan,
 
Well,=20 a point of agreement is always a place to start. =
 
Now,=20 let's move that point of agreement one step further. I'm going to = substitute=20 "video games" with education/schooling:
When these questions arise, I always revert = back to=20 the question: whose jurisdiction is it? In the case of children's=20 education, it is = the=20 jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of the parents to deal = with such=20 matters.
"Society" deals with the consequences of = both good=20 parenting and bad educational choices. However, it is not up to society to = legislatively=20 intervene because of a few bad apples. =
The=20 typical knee-jerk reaction is to object to a few and to pass = legislation that=20 forces parents to conform to our preferences.
However, in a "free" society with freedoms and = responsibilities,=20 the authority needs to remain with the governing jurisdiction.=20
So the=20 jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of education rests with the = parents=20 -- for good or bad. Does that mean everyone must homeschool? = Clearly not;=20 but the responsibility lies with the foundational jurisdiction -- for = good or=20 ill. 
 
Thoughts?  
 
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On = Behalf=20 Of Dan Carscallen
Sent: Tuesday, 08 July, 2003=20 12:47
To: Dale Courtney; = vision2020@moscow.com
Subject:=20 Re: [Vision2020] Video games

That's what = I was gonna=20 say . . . or I said, or something like that . . .
 
(tongue = firmly planted in=20 cheek, but amazingly agreeing with Dale on something)
DC
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Dale = Courtney=20
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:40 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games

When=20 these questions arise, I always revert back to the question: whose=20 jurisdiction is it? In the case of children, it is the = jurisdiction,=20 authority, and responsibility of the parents to deal with such = matters.=20
 
"Society" deals with the consequences of = both good=20 parenting and bad parenting. However, it is not up to = society to=20 legislatively intervene because of a few bad apples. =
 
The=20 typical knee-jerk reaction is to object to a few and to pass = legislation that=20 forces parents to conform to our preferences.
 
However, in a "free" society with freedoms and = responsibilities,=20 the authority needs to remain with the governing jurisdiction.=20
 
Best,
Dale
------=_NextPart_000_0187_01C34553.27DE7B80-- From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jul 8 21:23:12 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:23:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games In-Reply-To: <007701c3458a$d1a8cd50$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: Is there anybody else (besides me) that fails to see the parallel between "killer" video games and public education (without the unsubstantiated implications below)? Come on, Mr. Courtyney. This is definitely carrying things a bit too far. Wouldn't you say? Unless, of course, there is evidence that the public school system is forcing children to play these killer video games, a suggestion that I am sure some of V2020 subscribers are eager to prove. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho *********************************** Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's watching. - Author Unknown *********************************** From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 8 21:24:22 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:24:22 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games In-Reply-To: <018a01c3458d$d45c4d30$831da13f@MOSCOW1> Message-ID: <008201c3458e$eb10df90$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C34554.3EB20790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan, =20 You're not the first person to make that comment to me! :) =20 Education is my passion and my life. However, education is also often = the "line in the sand" where people who would normally agree in parental rights/responsibilities shift-sides and turn their allegiance over to = the State.=20 =20 My argument is that parental responsibilities/jurisdictions also lie in = the area of the education of their children -- for good or for ill.=20 =20 Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of Dan Carscallen Sent: Tuesday, 08 July, 2003 13:17 To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Video games it always comes back to the schools, don't it . . . ;^) =20 DC =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dale Courtney =20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:55 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games Dan, =20 Well, a point of agreement is always a place to start.=20 =20 Now, let's move that point of agreement one step further. I'm going to substitute "video games" with education/schooling:=20 When these questions arise, I always revert back to the question: whose jurisdiction is it? In the case of children's education, it is the jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of the parents to deal with = such matters.=20 "Society" deals with the consequences of both good parenting and bad educational choices. However, it is not up to society to legislatively intervene because of a few bad apples.=20 The typical knee-jerk reaction is to object to a few and to pass = legislation that forces parents to conform to our preferences.=20 However, in a "free" society with freedoms and responsibilities, the authority needs to remain with the governing jurisdiction.=20 So the jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of education rests = with the parents -- for good or bad. Does that mean everyone must homeschool? Clearly not; but the responsibility lies with the foundational = jurisdiction -- for good or ill.=20 =20 Thoughts? =20 =20 Best, Dale ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C34554.3EB20790 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Dan,
 
You're=20 not the first person to make that comment to me!  = :)
 
Education is my passion and my life. However, = education is also=20 often the "line in the sand" where people who would normally = agree in=20 parental rights/responsibilities shift-sides and turn their allegiance = over to=20 the State.
 
My=20 argument is that parental responsibilities/jurisdictions also lie = in the=20 area of the education of their children -- for good or for ill.=20
 
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On = Behalf=20 Of Dan Carscallen
Sent: Tuesday, 08 July, 2003=20 13:17
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: = [Vision2020]=20 Video games

it always = comes back to=20 the schools, don't it . . . ;^)
 
DC
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Dale = Courtney=20
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games

Dan,
 
Well, a point of agreement is always a place to start. =
 
Now,=20 let's move that point of agreement one step further. I'm going to = substitute=20 "video games" with education/schooling:
When these questions arise, I always = revert back to=20 the question: whose jurisdiction is it? In the case of children's=20 education, it = is the=20 jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of the parents to deal = with such=20 matters.
"Society" deals with the consequences of = both good=20 parenting and bad educational choices. However, it is not up to society to = legislatively=20 intervene because of a few bad apples. =
The typical knee-jerk reaction is to object to a few and to = pass=20 legislation that forces parents to conform to our preferences.=20
However, in a "free" society with freedoms and = responsibilities,=20 the authority needs to remain with the governing jurisdiction.=20
So=20 the jurisdiction, authority, and responsibility of education rests = with the=20 parents -- for good or bad. Does that mean everyone must = homeschool?=20 Clearly not; but the responsibility lies with the foundational = jurisdiction --=20 for good or ill. 
 
Thoughts?  
 
Best,
Dale
------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C34554.3EB20790-- From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jul 8 21:42:56 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:42:56 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games In-Reply-To: <008201c3458e$eb10df90$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: Dale Courtney stated: "My argument is that parental responsibilities/jurisdictions also lie in the area of the education of their children -- for good or for ill." These responsibilities/jurisdiciotns do rest primarily with the parents. They have the responsibility to decide whether their child/children attend(s) private schools, public schools, or is home schooled, just like the parent that decides whether or not their child is permitted to play with "killer" video games or not. No entity (be it social, political, or legislative) makes it absolutely mandatory that children will attend private schools, public schools, or be home schooled. And to make this "circle" complete, paying of taxes is not dependent upon where or how your child is educated. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From sprinkley_2000@yahoo.com Tue Jul 8 22:26:51 2003 From: sprinkley_2000@yahoo.com (sprinkley) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 14:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] World AIDS Day Community Planning Committee Meeting Needs you Tuesday, July 15th at noon Message-ID: <20030708212651.62370.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> World AIDS Day Community Planning Committee Meeting Needs you Tuesday, July 15th at noon! We are meeting in WSU's CUB room 232 reserved under GLBTA. Come join the planning process and decision making of your community. Make World AIDS Day 2003 one to remember. If you cannot make it please let Spring know as soon as possible. Email all agenda items by Friday, July 11th. If you are not sure what you can do to make a difference...send this email to others, come to the meeting to let us know your opinions, talk to your co-workers, friends, family, etc. about World AIDS Day, come into Stonewall to get tested (or the Health Departments/Planned Parenthood), educate yourself one HIV/AIDS, refer partners and peers to Stonewall's HIV prevention group for men who have sex with or intimate feelings for other men. Stonewall meets Mondays at 917 1/2 6th Street, Clarkston at 7 pm and Wednesdays at 627 N. Van Buren, Moscow at 7 pm. Also you can donate money for World AIDS Day programming or just attend World AIDS Day events. We are still working on finding ways to pay for the quilt, as well as a location for the quilt. Our deadline is coming fast! Project Face to Face? What is that? A great program hosted by the University of Idaho this year for World AIDS Day. Keep an eye out for more details. We are working on a webpage that will be palouseaids.org. It is under construction, make sure you bookmark it. World AIDS Day is coming fast. See you at the next meeting! Spring Dowse 627 N. Van Buren Moscow, Idaho 83843 (208) 883-3438 stonewall@moscow.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jul 8 22:43:06 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:43:06 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: Luke et. al. Luke wrote: > Then why do you express it on the list? You see, Mr. Moffet, you are >running >into contradictions again. You say that you really aren't sure about >religious truth, but you are definitely sure about one thing - no one can >be >truly sure about anything! > You have a moral compass spray-painted over by chameleon-blue paint, >and >you don't want to clean it off. You try to dodge absolute truth, and then >you turn around and try to chuck it at me. You basically say that we can't >be >certain. Yet you are certain about that. > And you call my arguments "silly logic games," but that simply means >you >cannot refute them. One army can yell insults at the other, but arrows are >what thin the ranks. > > Consider this sentence: "This sentence is false." If it is true, it must be false, so it is self contradictory. Language allows us to make grammatically correct sentences that are logically absurd. So much for grammar! I never did think it all made sense the way I was taught in grades K-12! These problems with language and logical systems have been studied in depth. You might look at Godel's incompleteness theorem, which demonstrates some of the problems with logical systems, or Principia Mathematica, by B. Russell. So when I say, "All absolutist belief systems are uncertain." you reply, aha, but then that statement itself must be uncertain, so you are contradicting yourself if you with certainty make that statement. But if you read what I said, for example, that perhaps Christ is our savior, you would realize that I am open to the possibility of an absolutist belief system being true, so really I am not being as seriously contradictory as you claim. Self referential statements of various kinds can lead to contradictions like the ones above, exposing logical flaws in the rules of structure in language. If language were logically perfect, such statements would not be allowed as well formed grammatical sentences. My position is that human knowledge and thinking is so flawed, and the possibilities so numerous, that to claim to have solved the important spiritual questions that humanity has been posing for thousands of years, with no doubt remaining about these questions, appears to be aimed more at satisfying the emotional need for absolute spiritual belief, than at really answering these questions based on evidence. And furthermore, that absolutist belief systems, especially when they are closed to evidence and logic that demonstrates there should be some doubt about the veracity of the details of these belief systems, leads to undesirable social/political consequences, i. e. extremist fundamentalists who justify killing and war, or abuse of women, or denial of civil rights, etc. based on these absolutist belief systems. Remember I am including Communism and Fascism, so called "secular" belief systems, as absolutist belief systems. Your position is like that of a scientist who claims to have already answered all the questions about cosmology, when there remains much evidence to gather and numerous different theories to ponder. Your responses to Ralph Nielsen on V2020, who has a considerable knowledge of biblical scholarship, indicates a refusal to consider evidence that contradicts the exact one way of thinking you have already decided is the absolute truth about religion. You also are subject to contradictions in your belief system, but you ignore the facts so as to deny the contradictions exist. You are right, Luke, I sometimes do contradict myself. And I acknowledge that with the limited tools of human thought, it is nearly impossible to think about complex belief systems without contradiction in some way. I admit the limitations of my knowledge and beliefs. Will you do the same? Or are you going to claim that your thinking and logic is so perfect that you have not make any significant mistakes about religion, such as in your interpretations of Biblical scholarship? Ted _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 9 06:21:17 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 05:21:17 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Falsehoods in State of Union Address Message-ID: http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_2518.shtml _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From vision2020@moscow.com Wed Jul 9 19:34:23 2003 From: vision2020@moscow.com (vision2020@moscow.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:34:23 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Latah County Zoning Commission Message-ID: <000401c34648$b8355b40$3464000a@latah.id.us> The Latah County Zoning Commission will not meet Wednesday, July 16, 2003. http://www.latah.id.us/Comm/PlanZone_Main.htm From moscowrecycling@turbonet.com Wed Jul 9 18:49:43 2003 From: moscowrecycling@turbonet.com (Andy Boyd) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:49:43 -0500 Subject: [Vision2020] Bumper Sticker Contest Message-ID: <001a01c34642$7b805660$3e38fea9@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C34618.91961F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To all Visionaries, Moscow Recycling is sponsoring a Bumper Sticker Contest through August = 15th. We are accepting recycling slogans from all senders and the = winning slogan will be placed on the Bumper Sticker. Your catch phrase = should be no longer than 50 characters so it can be seen from a = distance. The winner will also receive a $50 gift certificate to = Tri-State Distributors. There will be two runner-up prizes donated by = the Moscow Food Co-op and the Palouse Clearwater Environmental = Institute. The Bumper Stickers will be available for free at Latah Sanitation, = Inc./Moscow Recycling information booth at the Latah County Fair. We = hope that this contest will help promote recycling in our community. Send your entry via e-mail to MoscowRecycling@turbonet.com by mail to Moscow Recycling PO Box 9385 Moscow, Id. 83843 or drop it off at Moscow Recycling at 401 N. Jackson during our office = hours (Tues. - Sat. 9:30-5:30). Please include your name, address and phone number so we can contact you = if your a winner. Good Luck! and keep recycling. Andy Boyd Manager/Education Coordinator Moscow Recycling 882-0590 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C34618.91961F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To all Visionaries,
 
Moscow Recycling is sponsoring a Bumper = Sticker=20 Contest through August 15th.  We are accepting recycling slogans = from all=20 senders and the winning slogan will be placed on the Bumper = Sticker.  Your=20 catch phrase should be no longer than 50 characters so it can be seen = from a=20 distance.  The winner will also receive a $50 gift certificate to = Tri-State=20 Distributors.  There will be two runner-up prizes donated by the = Moscow=20 Food Co-op and the Palouse Clearwater Environmental = Institute.
 
The Bumper Stickers will be available = for free at=20 Latah Sanitation, Inc./Moscow Recycling information booth at the Latah = County=20 Fair.  We hope that this contest will help promote recycling in our = community.
 
Send your entry via e-mail to MoscowRecycling@turbonet.com=
 
by mail to Moscow = Recycling
          &nbs= p;   =20 PO Box 9385
          &nbs= p;   =20 Moscow, Id.  83843
 
or drop it off at Moscow Recycling at = 401 N.=20 Jackson during our office hours (Tues. - Sat. 9:30-5:30).
 
Please include your name, address and = phone number=20 so we can contact you if your a winner.
 
Good Luck! and keep = recycling.
 
Andy Boyd
Manager/Education = Coordinator
Moscow Recycling
882-0590
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C34618.91961F40-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 9 21:50:05 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 20:50:05 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games Message-ID: All: The entertainment industry promotes, and make huge profit off, incredible violence in FILMS that we have come to accept as the "norm." It seems, in fact, we have become numbed to violence in film, therefore the industry has to keep pushing the boundaries of graphic violence to "shock" the audience. Why should violent video games should cause such an uproar, when well respected movie stars, and the films they are in, depict horrific violence, that millions of children watch and think is "cool?" I won't list films and actors, and describe the violence in each film. The list would be long, and we all know about the killing and sadism commonly depicted on the big screen. But one very popular movie star and film series stands out for violence and success: Arnold Schwarzenegger, and the Terminator movie series. So you are concerned about video games that feature violence against police? Then what about the famous line "I'll be back!" from the first Terminator movie, which is spoken in a police station. When Arnold comes back, he takes the whole police station apart, killing I don't know how many police. Terminator 2 has some horrific scenes of violence that could earn the movie an X rating for violence. Yet in our kind and loving and compassionate culture, we apparently think scenes of lovemaking with the sight of a naked human body to be more of a moral crisis then depicting people graphically sliced and diced in cold blooded murder, blood all over the place, etc. So why is the latest Terminator movie in the series now on the big screen, apparently without protest for the incredible violence, definitely viewed by millions of children, the movie series used to make millions? Yet on V2020 some object to violent video games? You could argue that film is understood to be fantasy, while video games are more involving, blurring the line between fantasy and reality. There are studies, however, that have shown that children watching violent content from films or TV will encourage violent conduct in the children later on. So this argument is problematic. And many children do understand that a video game is fantasy, anyways. If I wanted to lessen violence in society connected to "entertainment" I would first insist on less violence in films. Video game violence is just an extension of what has become commonplace on the big screen, seen by millions of children with an eerie acceptance by parents that this is the "norm." When a movie star, Schwarzenegger, who has made millions off graphic violence in films, can be seriously considered to run for governor of California... it would seem the effort to stop children from being exposed to violent entertainment via movie heros who promote films with violence as "cool," is being undermined! And to expect parents to do the job of monitoring their children for exposure to violent media, parents have a hard road ahead. The aggressive marketing to children in the USA by corporations is a powerful force that penetrates nearly every aspect of life. And violence sells, plain and simple. A family would nearly have to lead the life of a recluse to stop children from being exposed to violent content media. For example, portable hand held video games are popular, and any child with such a device loaded with a violent video game could share the game with another child. But the real questions deal with the fact that our culture actually encourages and endorses many forms of violent conduct. And blaming violent media for these problems is just attacking symptoms, not the fundamental causes. Ted >From: "Saundra Lund" >To: "'Shawn Clabough'" , >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games >Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:02:33 -0700 > >I absolutely agree. > >It's a tough question, for sure. Being about as much of a bleeding >heart liberal :-) as possible, I'm against banning. However, I'm a big >advocate of personal responsibility: kids need to be responsible, >parents need to be responsible, artists need to be responsible, >corporations need to be responsible, retailers need to be responsible, >and communities need to be responsible. > >I think a good start is for everyone (including artists, manufacturers, >and retailers) to remember that the almighty dollar isn't the "be all & >end all." > >The Daily News had an article recently about video games, and I was >impressed & heartened to read that some kids are just saying "No" to >violent games. > >But, for the kids who aren't, it's a very scary thing, I think. And, it >seems to me that for some, making money rather than thinking of the >effects of such vile trash (subjective, I know) on kids is more >important. > >Sad, sad state of affairs, I think, but nothing new. > > >Saundra Lund >Moscow, Idaho > >The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to >do nothing. >Edmund Burke > >-----Original Message----- >From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] >On Behalf Of Shawn Clabough >Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 10:12 AM >To: 'vision2020@moscow.com' >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games > > >The tough part of this equation is where the parents that should be >"parenting" their child away from this material don't care enough to, >then that child goes out and does something to a child that was actively >"parented". How can society prevent this proactively? > >An active parent and gamer, >Shawn Clabough > _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Wed Jul 9 23:20:55 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 15:20:55 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FB6@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Greetings Visionaires - I agree with you, Mr. Moffett, concerning violence in film and on television. In Europe (particularly Germany), violence on television is very much controlled, and they (Germany) are fairly liberal when it comes to exposing the human body on television. Concerning Arnold Schwarzenegger - He has been active in California politics for quite some time now. Next year may be his best chance to move to Sacramento, especially considering that there is currently a major movement in California to recall Governor Davis. My parents (both in their 80's) have voted solid Republican for as long as I can remember. In the absence of a favorable Reublican front-runner in the 2004 Gubernatorial race, they may vote for Arnold. Shocker of shockers!! My folks (who have made sizable contributions to the Republican Party since 1972) have also expressed that unless another Republican replaces George in the 2004 Presidential election, they may vote Democratic. These are the same parents of mine that think Ronald Reagan was the finest President in American history. Just some thoughts, Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jul 10 05:31:04 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:31:04 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] 9/11 Investigation Blocked Message-ID: http://64.4.16.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=b1901059e496239785cc78943dfb21cb&lat=1057811151&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2etruthout%2eorg%2fdocs_03%2f071003B%2eshtml _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From timlohr@yahoo.com Thu Jul 10 19:36:28 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 11:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] WATCH OUT DEMOS: Nader's almost in Message-ID: <20030710183628.8457.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, The following appeared in the "WASHINGTON WHISPERS" section of US NEWS AND WORLD REPORT this week. TL Nader will be in by January Ralph Nader fans, all 2.8 million of you, rejoice. Yes, he’s probably going to run for president again. Over cereal Thursday morning, he said the decision will come “by the end of the year.” But he’s already planning and scheming for a run, either as an independent or Green Party candidate. Does he think he has a chance? Nader puts it this way: “If I was able to get on all the state ballots … and if I was able to get in all of the debates, there’d be a good chance for a three-way race. And if the debates were not just sterile parallel interviews, if they were really varied debates worthy of the name, there’s a chance of a three-way race.” Why run? He thinks President Bush and most Democrats are ignoring the very kind of corporate corruption he hates. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Thu Jul 10 20:12:20 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:12:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] It's so hot in Moscow today that.. Message-ID: I just saw a couple of birds using potholders to pull the worms out of the ground. I hear the cows are giving evaporated milk. Farmers are feeding their chickens crushed ice to keep them from laying hard-boiled eggs. I saw a dog chasing a cat, and they were both walking. The trees are whistling for the dogs. I saw a dog get a skinhead haircut. It's so hot in Moscow today that at the company picnic we had to drink the potato salad. Sorry, I was just outside and I had to do that... Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jul 10 20:39:03 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:39:03 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Retraction: Journalist Conned For 20 Years Message-ID: http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_2529.shtml _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jul 10 21:57:06 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:57:06 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] 9/11 Investigation Blocked Message-ID: All: The link I posted earlier regarding this subject was non-functional. Maybe this time it will work: http://truthout.org/docs_03/071003B.shtml _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From casandrab@sub.uidaho.edu Thu Jul 10 22:53:55 2003 From: casandrab@sub.uidaho.edu (Casandra Byington) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:53:55 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Potluck Message-ID: <9ED40ACAD972CB40AF23181E18795996CD0F40@fox.sub.uidaho.edu> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3472D.C27E925C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello! =20 This is just a reminder to let us know if you will be attending the Vision2020 Community Potluck on Tuesday, July 15, 6 - 8 p.m. by tomorrow. We've received a few RSVPs but would like to see a stronger showing from the active members of our community. You can e-mail me at casandrab@sub.uidaho.edu or Jessica at jessical@sub.uidaho.edu. We look forward to meeting everyone next week. Thanks! =20 Casandra Byington ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3472D.C27E925C Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello!

 

This is just a reminder to let us know if you will be attending the Vision2020 Community Potluck on Tuesday, July 15, = 6 – 8 = p.m. by tomorrow.  We’ve received a few RSVPs but would like to see a stronger showing from the active members of our community.   = You can e-mail me at casandrab@sub.uidaho.edu or Jessica at jessical@sub.uidaho.edu.  We look forward to meeting everyone next week.  = Thanks!

 

Casandra Byington

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3472D.C27E925C-- From jschutz@moscow.com Thu Jul 10 23:42:40 2003 From: jschutz@moscow.com (Jerry L. Schutz) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:42:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] It's so hot in Moscow today that.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Considering the alterative is snow, don't complain. Jerry -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Carl Westberg Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:12 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] It's so hot in Moscow today that.. I just saw a couple of birds using potholders to pull the worms out of the ground. I hear the cows are giving evaporated milk. Farmers are feeding their chickens crushed ice to keep them from laying hard-boiled eggs. I saw a dog chasing a cat, and they were both walking. The trees are whistling for the dogs. I saw a dog get a skinhead haircut. It's so hot in Moscow today that at the company picnic we had to drink the potato salad. Sorry, I was just outside and I had to do that... Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 7/10/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 7/10/2003 From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 00:26:26 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] back in moscow/pullman Message-ID: <20030710232626.58221.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1227208560-1057879586=:56673 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii i'm back in moscow/pullman, and i have no place to stay tonight. -douglas stambler --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1227208560-1057879586=:56673 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
i'm back in moscow/pullman, and i have no place to stay tonight.
 
-douglas stambler

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1227208560-1057879586=:56673-- From thansen@moscow.com Fri Jul 11 01:03:17 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:03:17 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] back in moscow/pullman In-Reply-To: <20030710232626.58221.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C34705.28621130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let me see if I have this right. Somebody was nice/generous enough to provide Mr. Stambler funds to return to the east coast. He got as far as Minnesota. Somebody (maybe the same person) was beyond nice/generous and sent Mr. Stambler (in Minnesota) funds to complete his journey to the east coast. Mr. Stambler returns to Moscow where he suddenly realizes that he is out of money and has no place to stay. Is this the same Mr. Stambler that was going to save Latah County from financial ruin? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Stambler Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 4:26 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] back in moscow/pullman i'm back in moscow/pullman, and i have no place to stay tonight. -douglas stambler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C34705.28621130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Let = me see if I=20 have this right. 
 
Somebody was=20 nice/generous enough to provide Mr. Stambler funds to return to the east = coast.  He got as far as Minnesota.
 
Somebody (maybe=20 the same person) was beyond nice/generous and sent Mr. Stambler (in = Minnesota)=20 funds to complete his journey to the east coast.  Mr. Stambler = returns to=20 Moscow where he suddenly realizes that he is out of money and has no = place to=20 stay.
 
Is = this the same=20 Mr. Stambler that was going to save Latah County from financial=20 ruin?
 
Tom = Hansen
Moscow,=20 Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Douglas=20 Stambler
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 4:26 PM
To: = vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] back in=20 moscow/pullman

i'm back in moscow/pullman, and i have no place to stay = tonight.
 
-douglas stambler

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC=20 Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C34705.28621130-- From johnmoss@moscow.com Fri Jul 11 03:36:21 2003 From: johnmoss@moscow.com (John Moss) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:36:21 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games References: Message-ID: <005501c34755$373b47d0$2201a8c0@RMACH> Mr. Moffet, Mr. Hansen, and all, In an amoral reductionist world, scenes "depicting people graphically sliced and diced" would really be no worse than scenes of "lovemaking with the sight of a naked human body." One type of scene merely depicts the rearrangement of matter in the universe; the other merely depicts the arrangement and rearrangement of matter in the universe. In a morally-guided world, however, both types of scenes could be issues--or as Mr. Moffet put it, a moral crisis. While I agree completely with Mr. Moffet and Mr. Hansen that violent film and television can cause similar violent behavior in children, it would seem to be a good idea not to over-generalize. There is some violent behavior that is noble; there is other violent behavior that is despicable. The film cited by Mr. Moffet would probably be a good example of violent behavior that most parents would find reprehensible in their children. In this society, I don't know of any parents who would delight in hearing of their children's brutal destruction of police officers. And yet the film industry has built up a whole sub-culture around the "innate goodness" of attacking and killing police officers. This is a twisted morality. As a little test of the media's impact, what type of connotations does the word "cop" bring to mind? Much research has shown that televised violence has a direct and immediate impact on behavior. Citing one such study done by researchers Liebert and Baron, the psychologist Robert Cialdini writes: "Some children were shown excerpts from a television program in which people intentionally harmed each other. Afterward, these children acted in a significantly more harmful way toward other children than did those who had watched a nonviolent television program (a horse race)." Along these lines, there are some films that show proper violence done for the sake of goodness. Could a citizen intervening in the massacre of a town or a husband protecting his wife from an invading army be examples of this? When citizens make their voice known to the film or television industry, they need to make sure that what they are truly expecting is clear. Don't just ask for non-violence. Ask for nobility. John Moss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Moffett" To: ; Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 1:50 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games > > All: > > The entertainment industry promotes, and make huge profit off, incredible > violence in FILMS that we have come to accept as the "norm." It seems, in > fact, we have become numbed to violence in film, therefore the industry has > to keep pushing the boundaries of graphic violence to "shock" the audience. > > Why should violent video games should cause such an uproar, when well > respected movie stars, and the films they are in, depict horrific violence, > that millions of children watch and think is "cool?" > > I won't list films and actors, and describe the violence in each film. The > list would be long, and we all know about the killing and sadism commonly > depicted on the big screen. > > But one very popular movie star and film series stands out for violence and > success: Arnold Schwarzenegger, and the Terminator movie series. > > So you are concerned about video games that feature violence against police? > Then what about the famous line "I'll be back!" from the first Terminator > movie, which is spoken in a police station. When Arnold comes back, he > takes the whole police station apart, killing I don't know how many police. > > Terminator 2 has some horrific scenes of violence that could earn the movie > an X rating for violence. Yet in our kind and loving and compassionate > culture, we apparently think scenes of lovemaking with the sight of a naked > human body to be more of a moral crisis then depicting people graphically > sliced and diced in cold blooded murder, blood all over the place, etc. > > So why is the latest Terminator movie in the series now on the big screen, > apparently without protest for the incredible violence, definitely viewed by > millions of children, the movie series used to make millions? Yet on V2020 > some object to violent video games? > > You could argue that film is understood to be fantasy, while video games are > more involving, blurring the line between fantasy and reality. There are > studies, however, that have shown that children watching violent content > from films or TV will encourage violent conduct in the children later on. > So this argument is problematic. And many children do understand that a > video game is fantasy, anyways. > > If I wanted to lessen violence in society connected to "entertainment" I > would first insist on less violence in films. Video game violence is just > an extension of what has become commonplace on the big screen, seen by > millions of children with an eerie acceptance by parents that this is the > "norm." > > When a movie star, Schwarzenegger, who has made millions off graphic > violence in films, can be seriously considered to run for governor of > California... it would seem the effort to stop children from being exposed > to violent entertainment via movie heros who promote films with violence as > "cool," is being undermined! > > And to expect parents to do the job of monitoring their children for > exposure to violent media, parents have a hard road ahead. The aggressive > marketing to children in the USA by corporations is a powerful force that > penetrates nearly every aspect of life. And violence sells, plain and > simple. A family would nearly have to lead the life of a recluse to stop > children from being exposed to violent content media. For example, portable > hand held video games are popular, and any child with such a device loaded > with a violent video game could share the game with another child. > > But the real questions deal with the fact that our culture actually > encourages and endorses many forms of violent conduct. And blaming violent > media for these problems is just attacking symptoms, not the fundamental > causes. > > Ted > > >From: "Saundra Lund" > >To: "'Shawn Clabough'" , > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games > >Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:02:33 -0700 > > > >I absolutely agree. > > > >It's a tough question, for sure. Being about as much of a bleeding > >heart liberal :-) as possible, I'm against banning. However, I'm a big > >advocate of personal responsibility: kids need to be responsible, > >parents need to be responsible, artists need to be responsible, > >corporations need to be responsible, retailers need to be responsible, > >and communities need to be responsible. > > > >I think a good start is for everyone (including artists, manufacturers, > >and retailers) to remember that the almighty dollar isn't the "be all & > >end all." > > > >The Daily News had an article recently about video games, and I was > >impressed & heartened to read that some kids are just saying "No" to > >violent games. > > > >But, for the kids who aren't, it's a very scary thing, I think. And, it > >seems to me that for some, making money rather than thinking of the > >effects of such vile trash (subjective, I know) on kids is more > >important. > > > >Sad, sad state of affairs, I think, but nothing new. > > > > > >Saundra Lund > >Moscow, Idaho > > > >The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to > >do nothing. > >Edmund Burke > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] > >On Behalf Of Shawn Clabough > >Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 10:12 AM > >To: 'vision2020@moscow.com' > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Video games > > > > > >The tough part of this equation is where the parents that should be > >"parenting" their child away from this material don't care enough to, > >then that child goes out and does something to a child that was actively > >"parented". How can society prevent this proactively? > > > >An active parent and gamer, > >Shawn Clabough > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > From thansen@moscow.com Fri Jul 11 03:44:46 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:44:46 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games In-Reply-To: <005501c34755$373b47d0$2201a8c0@RMACH> Message-ID: Mr. Moffett stated: "In an amoral reductionist world, scenes "depicting people graphically sliced and diced" would really be no worse than scenes of "lovemaking with the sight of a naked human body." One type of scene merely depicts the rearrangement of matter in the universe; the other merely depicts the arrangement and rearrangement of matter in the universe." I am certain that a majority of mature adults can (and mostly do) segregate the morality of each of the scenes you have depicted. However, I am not so certain of our children. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Fri Jul 11 05:46:10 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:46:10 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <007901c34767$ac4ac250$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Hi, Mr. Moffet: > > So when I say, "All absolutist belief systems are uncertain." you reply, > aha, but then that statement itself must be uncertain, so you are > contradicting yourself if you with certainty make that statement. But if > you read what I said, for example, that perhaps Christ is our savior, you > would realize that I am open to the possibility of an absolutist belief > system being true, so really I am not being as seriously contradictory as > you claim. So then you're simply unsure of your beliefs and on spiritual stilts in a sprinting race. > Self referential statements of various kinds can lead to > contradictions like the ones above, exposing logical flaws in the rules of > structure in language. If language were logically perfect, such statements > would not be allowed as well formed grammatical sentences. I don't think you've quite got it here. Part of logic is negation, and double negation. That does not make logic false, or language false. If I say, "This is black and not black," the statement negates and cancels itself, but it in no way ruins grammar and reason. So when your basic belief is a self-contradiction, it is completely false, yet without making all truth false. It simply makes your tenet false. If a tent collapses on itself, it doesn't knock over all the tents near it. > My position is that human knowledge and thinking is so flawed, and the > possibilities so numerous, that to claim to have solved the important > spiritual questions that humanity has been posing for thousands of years, > with no doubt remaining about these questions, appears to be aimed more at > satisfying the emotional need for absolute spiritual belief, than at really > answering these questions based on evidence. And yet, in your position, your thinking isn't so flawed that you cannot spot this. > You are right, Luke, I sometimes do contradict myself. And I acknowledge > that with the limited tools of human thought, it is nearly impossible to > think about complex belief systems without contradiction in some way. > Will you do the same? Or are you going to claim that your thinking and > logic is so perfect that you have not make any significant mistakes about > religion, such as in your interpretations of Biblical scholarship? Neither. "Significant mistakes" would, I think, refer to something heretical. But God's logic is so perfect and His truths so clear that even my 2-cylinder brain can grasp the basic truths. My surety does not come from my logic, but from God's. Have a good day, Luke Nieuwsma From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 16:10:16 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Article: "America's Children Are Stoned and Alone" Message-ID: <20030711151016.11581.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> --0-2053146594-1057936216=:10916 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii America's Children Are Stoned and Alone Too many American towns and cities have not really taken any measures to stop their children from using drugs. The churches don't do enough; government doesn't care enough. They're showing up on the welfare lines: Young, stoned and alone. Is there a way to help America's children in time to spare them the poverty and emptiness that awaits them if they continue on this deadly path? You've seen the newspaper headlines about the mother who killed her own children, or the girl who killed one of her parents. When's it going to end? Should we just give up on our country right now, or should we treat every child as a son or daughter of God, and get directly involved in their lives? It is not too late to save our nation's children from their own bad decision making. Let's talk about the drug known as "meth." From Montana to New Hampshire, meth addiction is taking lives and crippling America's labor force. But a moral approach to stopping this trend won't work, because drug users never stop using until they can figure out a better way to live. Why throw money at the problem, when all you have to do to stop drug usage in the United States is to come into a new reality, where using drugs is no longer an option? Some kind of rehab program, huh? Just talk to the druggie, right? It's that simple. You need to try it some time on your local drug dealers and their young, vulnerable clients. Meth is no different from other deadly drugs: Just because it's easy to make, doesn't mean we can't put an end to its use in America. Remember the 60s? People say that those were great days, and people say that wisdom was learned from all the fornication and drug usage that "opened up your eyes to a new way of life." But look at what happened to the hippies: They're burned out, many are dead already and many are doing a lousy job of raising children. Case in point: Has anyone tried to say that the 1960s were a total failure, and not a success? Sure, evangelical Christians and Republicans tend to oppose the moral decadence of the 1960s. But who says that children today in America need to repeat that failure? Well, nearly every public school and secular university teaches that the 1960s were a time of learning and spiritual growth and understanding. So, where's the incentive for America's children to stop using drugs, if they're being taught by their elders to learn from failure? How about that. We're teaching our kids to experience failure -personally- so that they can live and grow from their mist! akes. Come on. No one learns from failure. Humans learn from success. Which brings us back to telling children about a better way of life. And what would a successful life be like? Tell them this: "You were born for a reason. No one is the same. Try to find out why you were created, and go out and do that. Follow what God wants you to do, not what other people want you to do." Have you ever known someone who didn't learn wonderful lessons from their successes in life? That's where we should place emphasis with our children: Let them find out that life's successes are far better than trying to put a positive spin on their life failures. Separate success from failure, and give America's children all the time that they need to know God and to follow God. In that way, teachers will teach instead of playing parent, and parents can tie another memory to their children's future: So that the better way of living was simply the way their children grew up. Would God lead a child to fail? Then why do we encourage failure in America? Instead, tell America's children that God has a life planned for them, that is unlike anyone else's life. In this way, our children can avoid the lifestyle that currently holds their interest: An American despondency - being stoned and alone. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Moscow, ID/Pullman, WA) dstambler_christian_writer@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2053146594-1057936216=:10916 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
America's Children Are Stoned and Alone
 
Too many American towns and cities have not really taken any measures to stop their children from using drugs.  The churches don't do enough; government doesn't care enough.  They're showing up on the welfare lines: Young, stoned and alone.  Is there a way to help America's children in time to spare them the poverty and emptiness that awaits them if they continue on this deadly path?  You've seen the newspaper headlines about the mother who killed her own children, or the girl who killed one of her parents.  When's it going to end?  Should we just give up on our country right now, or should we treat every child as a son or daughter of God, and get directly involved in their lives?  It is not too late to save our nation's children from their own bad decision making.
 
Let's talk about the drug known as "meth."  From Montana to New Hampshire, meth addiction is taking lives and crippling America's labor force.  But a moral approach to stopping this trend won't work, because drug users never stop using until they can figure out a better way to live.  Why throw money at the problem, when all you have to do to stop drug usage in the United States is to come into a new reality, where using drugs is no longer an option?  Some kind of rehab program, huh?  Just talk to the druggie, right?  It's that simple.  You need to try it some time on your local drug dealers and their young, vulnerable clients.  Meth is no different from other deadly drugs: Just because it's easy to make, doesn't mean we can't put an end to its use in America.
 
Remember the 60s?  People say that those were great days, and people say that wisdom was learned from all the fornication and drug usage that "opened up your eyes to a new way of life."  But look at what happened to the hippies: They're burned out, many are dead already and many are doing a lousy job of raising children.  Case in point: Has anyone tried to say that the 1960s were a total failure, and not a success?  Sure, evangelical Christians and Republicans tend to oppose the moral decadence of the 1960s.  But who says that children today in America need to repeat that failure?  Well, nearly every public school and secular university teaches that the 1960s were a time of learning and spiritual growth and understanding.  So, where's the incentive for America's children to stop using drugs, if they're being taught by their elders to learn from failure?  How about that.  We're teaching our kids to experience failure -personally- so that they can live and grow from their mistakes.  Come on.  No one learns from failure.  Humans learn from success.
 
Which brings us back to telling children about a better way of life.  And what would a successful life be like?  Tell them this: "You were born for a reason.  No one is the same.  Try to find out why you were created, and go out and do that.  Follow what God wants you to do, not what other people want you to do."  Have you ever known someone who didn't learn wonderful lessons from their successes in life?  That's where we should place emphasis with our children: Let them find out that life's successes are far better than trying to put a positive spin on their life failures.  Separate success from failure, and give America's children all the time that they need to know God and to follow God.  In that way, teachers will teach instead of playing parent, and parents can tie another memory to their children's future: So that the better way of living was simply the way their children grew up.
 
Would God lead a child to fail?  Then why do we encourage failure in America?  Instead, tell America's children that God has a life planned for them, that is unlike anyone else's life.  In this way, our children can avoid the lifestyle that currently holds their interest: An American despondency - being stoned and alone.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Moscow, ID/Pullman, WA)
 

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2053146594-1057936216=:10916-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 16:51:54 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Article: "An Alternative Definition of Sustainable Agriculture" Message-ID: <20030711155154.33146.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> --0-954479760-1057938714=:31545 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii An Alternative Definition of Sustainable Agriculture In Eastern Washington and Western Idaho, there is almost a mythical tradition that surrounds the raising of crops: The area of land known as the Palouse, is one of the most fertile regions in the entire United States. There are many theories about what created the rolling hills and the ability of early indigenous people to live and flourish without even the slightest modifications to the land or its underground water supply. And, in 2003, the Palouse is more popular than ever, but it is losing the very characteristics that made it special in the first place: The Winter snow cover is almost non-existent; bio-technology companies are replacing standard agricultural practices; and, scientific theories about agriculture are being used to try and replenish natural resources in the area, which are diminishing in the face of modern demands on the land, water and air. All in all, the Palouse needs to find and apply a new definition of "sustainable agriculture," or the mythical tr! adition already will have become a Grimm fairy tale, with no happy ending. There is no topic of greater importance in the Palouse than agriculture. And yet, it is hardly discussed outside of farmers, city officials and federal agencies in the area that supervise crop growing and research. It's almost as if the people who live in the Palouse have given up meaningful dialogue about what farming means to their communities, and have replaced it with the occasional agriculture-related story in the local newspaper. Also, grange halls in the Palouse are hardly the bustling centers of community they were up until the late 1950s: Dances, civic meetings and men's and women's social groups all met in a central location, where information was shared and feedback was given much quicker than in today's editorial pages of a local or regional news source. With the breakdown of communication in the Palouse regarding agriculture, came a big trade-off: State and federal agencies began to dictate a less personal agenda that local people could react to, but not ini! tiate themselves. Until now in 2003, when every single local government in the Palouse gets the majority of agricultural data from either the United States Department of Agriculture, or the local equivalent of a state-sponsored agricultural extension office. In any case, the trend is towards a reduction in citizen participation and an increase in withholding essential information from the general public. What the Palouse needs to save it from the very serious problems of drought, the use of pesticides, public apathy and a dangerous reliance on food being trucked in on a daily basis, is a new definition of "sustainable agriculture." I offer the following definition: "'Sustainable agriculture' introduces the community back to the land; it seeks to educate and train local people how to raise animals, grow vegetables and conserve water; finally, it explores an historical approach to farming, so that a community can resume the overwhelmingly successful agricultural techniques used by the indigenous people, who pre-dated America." In other words, "sustainable agriculture" is a technique that attempts to make living off the land easily accessible to every citizen. In 2003, a resident of a town in the Palouse is not encouraged to farm: The 4-H chapters have gone modern, and preach rocketry and community service to school children, instead of teaching them how to feed themselves. Unlike any other discipline, though, once basic farming skills are lost to children, it takes much more time to reintroduce and apply those skills again in the future. In the Palouse, the Future Farmers of America take that mission very seriously, and at least some children are learning how to run a farm. But it's not enough, and at this point, it's too late to teach many more children before more weather changes set in: Drought, wildfires and flooding are becoming the norm throughout the United States, and this trend does not look good for farmers in every region of the country. The best that can be done to prepare the general public for crisis conditions is to stock up on canned food. But again, these efforts are too late. However, it's not all bleak for the Palouse. The 235 square miles that make up this miraculously fertile land would feed everyone in the Palouse quite easily, if only citizens would take back the agricultural agenda: A return to small, local farms that provide important staples for people in the Palouse would eventually salvage what looks like is going to be a series of bureaucratic scandals and neglect that will no doubt cause one of the worst crises in regional, agricultural history. After all, it's one thing when the land won't grow food; but it's quite another, when the people who live there forget how to grow food and take care of their basic needs. And that's why the Palouse needs a new definition of "sustainable agriculture": Either that, or current events are going to literally run the population into the ground. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Moscow, ID/Pullman, WA) dstambler_christian_writer@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-954479760-1057938714=:31545 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
An Alternative Definition of Sustainable Agriculture
 
In Eastern Washington and Western Idaho, there is almost a mythical tradition that surrounds the raising of crops: The area of land known as the Palouse, is one of the most fertile regions in the entire United States.  There are many theories about what created the rolling hills and the ability of early indigenous people to live and flourish without even the slightest modifications to the land or its underground water supply.  And, in 2003, the Palouse is more popular than ever, but it is losing the very characteristics that made it special in the first place: The Winter snow cover is almost non-existent; bio-technology companies are replacing standard agricultural practices; and, scientific theories about agriculture are being used to try and replenish natural resources in the area, which are diminishing in the face of modern demands on the land, water and air.  All in all, the Palouse needs to find and apply a new definition of "sustainable agriculture," or the mythical tradition already will have become a Grimm fairy tale, with no happy ending.
 
There is no topic of greater importance in the Palouse than agriculture.  And yet, it is hardly discussed outside of farmers, city officials and federal agencies in the area that supervise crop growing and research.  It's almost as if the people who live in the Palouse have given up meaningful dialogue about what farming means to their communities, and have replaced it with the occasional agriculture-related story in the local newspaper.  Also, grange halls in the Palouse are hardly the bustling centers of community they were up until the late 1950s: Dances, civic meetings and men's and women's social groups all met in a central location, where information was shared and feedback was given much quicker than in today's editorial pages of a local or regional news source.  With the breakdown of communication in the Palouse regarding agriculture, came a big trade-off: State and federal agencies began to dictate a less personal agenda that loca! l people could react to, but not initiate themselves.  Until now in 2003, when every single local government in the Palouse gets the majority of agricultural data from either the United States Department of Agriculture, or the local equivalent of a state-sponsored agricultural extension office.  In any case, the trend is towards a reduction in citizen participation and an increase in withholding essential information from the general public.
 
What the Palouse needs to save it from the very serious problems of drought, the use of pesticides, public apathy and a dangerous reliance on food being trucked in on a daily basis, is a new definition of "sustainable agriculture."  I offer the following definition: "'Sustainable agriculture' introduces the community back to the land; it seeks to educate and train local people how to raise animals, grow vegetables and conserve water; finally, it explores an historical approach to farming, so that a community can resume the overwhelmingly successful agricultural techniques used by the indigenous people, who pre-dated America."  In other words, "sustainable agriculture" is a technique that attempts to make living off the land easily accessible to every citizen.
 
In 2003, a resident of a town in the Palouse is not encouraged to farm: The 4-H chapters have gone modern, and preach rocketry and community service to school children, instead of teaching them how to feed themselves.  Unlike any other discipline, though, once basic farming skills are lost to children, it takes much more time to reintroduce and apply those skills again in the future.  In the Palouse, the Future Farmers of America take that mission very seriously, and at least some children are learning how to run a farm.  But it's not enough, and at this point, it's too late to teach many more children before more weather changes set in: Drought, wildfires and flooding are becoming the norm throughout the United States, and this trend does not look good for farmers in every region of the country.  The best that can be done to prepare the general public for crisis conditions is to stock up on canned food.  But again, these efforts are ! too late.
 
However, it's not all bleak for the Palouse.  The 235 square miles that make up this miraculously fertile land would feed everyone in the Palouse quite easily, if only citizens would take back the agricultural agenda: A return to small, local farms that provide important staples for people in the Palouse would eventually salvage what looks like is going to be a series of bureaucratic scandals and neglect that will no doubt cause one of the worst crises in regional, agricultural history.  After all, it's one thing when the land won't grow food; but it's quite another, when the people who live there forget how to grow food and take care of their basic needs.  And that's why the Palouse needs a new definition of "sustainable agriculture": Either that, or current events are going to literally run the population into the ground.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Moscow, ID/Pullman, WA)
 
 

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-954479760-1057938714=:31545-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 17:30:17 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] 30 Reasons Not To Put Your Faith In Science Message-ID: <20030711163017.34615.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> --0-2001616235-1057941017=:33820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 30 Reasons Not To Put Your Faith In Science by Douglas Stambler 30. The Atomic Bomb. 29. microwave ovens never heat evenly! 28. The food you eat today, might some day be eating you. 27. Do we really want to know what a monkey thinks? 26. Walt Disney is still frozen, isn't he? 25. The more we evolve, the faster we kill each other. 24. There are some people out there you just can't trust with a Bunsen burner. 23. science professors earn less than football coaches. 22. How many scientists does it take to screw in a light bulb? Too many: It takes a billion to build a bulb that works, and it takes almost as many to write the government grant to finance the experiment. 21. Douglas Adams died at the age of 49. 20. Darth Vader had all of science at his fingertips, and he still couldn't breathe through his mask! 19. Some day some researcher is going to come up with a theory that bacteria are as important as humans. And then we'll have to let it grow wherever it wants to. 18. Humans invented science. Watch out! 17. Just take a look at the graduate students in that field. 16. You can do more with smoke and mirrors than you can do with hypotheses and data. 15. Science is a balancing act between common sense and government grants. 14. Who wants to be known as having a B.S., anyway? 13. The collective intelligence of humankind is immeasurable. 12. Science can't solve what a handshake can. 11. God heals better than medicine does. 10. Mary Baker Eddy didn't put her faith in science: And now she's got her own newspaper! 9. You can sleep easier, knowing that there's no such thing as a Martian. 8. It's cheaper to die when your heart gets old, than to keep living on all those expensive machines they've got you hooked up to at the hospital. 7. Babies should come from mommies and daddies, not test tubes, Petri dishes and eye droppers. 6. NASA has yet to perfect freeze dried ice cream. 5. Because for every biologist out there, there exists plant mutation that makes all that schooling obsolete. 4. Four out of five scientists still drive petroleum-powered cars, even though they know that biking is better for all life on Earth. 3. If a baby doesn't think about gravity while throwing food at the dinner table, then why should the rest of us pay any attention to it? 2. Your 10th grade biology teacher never graduated high school. 1. Because Jesus Christ would rather you put your faith in Him. dstambler_christian_writer@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2001616235-1057941017=:33820 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
30 Reasons Not To Put Your Faith In Science
by Douglas Stambler
 
30. The Atomic Bomb.
 
29. microwave ovens never heat evenly!
 
28. The food you eat today, might some day be eating you.
 
27. Do we really want to know what a monkey thinks?
 
26. Walt Disney is still frozen, isn't he?
 
25. The more we evolve, the faster we kill each other.
 
24. There are some people out there you just can't trust with a Bunsen burner.
 
23. science professors earn less than football coaches.
 
22. How many scientists does it take to screw in a light bulb?  Too many: It takes a billion to build a bulb that works, and it takes almost as many to write the government grant to finance the experiment.
 
21. Douglas Adams died at the age of 49.
 
20. Darth Vader had all of science at his fingertips, and he still couldn't breathe through his mask!
 
19. Some day some researcher is going to come up with a theory that bacteria are as important as humans.  And then we'll have to let it grow wherever it wants to.
 
18. Humans invented science.  Watch out!
 
17. Just take a look at the graduate students in that field.
 
16. You can do more with smoke and mirrors than you can do with hypotheses and data.
 
15. Science is a balancing act between common sense and government grants.
 
14. Who wants to be known as having a B.S., anyway?
 
13. The collective intelligence of humankind is immeasurable.
 
12. Science can't solve what a handshake can.
 
11. God heals better than medicine does.
 
10. Mary Baker Eddy didn't put her faith in science: And now she's got her own newspaper!
 
9. You can sleep easier, knowing that there's no such thing as a Martian.
 
8. It's cheaper to die when your heart gets old, than to keep living on all those expensive machines they've got you hooked up to at the hospital.
 
7. Babies should come from mommies and daddies, not test tubes, Petri dishes and eye droppers.
 
6. NASA has yet to perfect freeze dried ice cream.
 
5. Because for every biologist out there, there exists plant mutation that makes all that schooling obsolete.
 
4. Four out of five scientists still drive petroleum-powered cars, even though they know that biking is better for all life on Earth.
 
3. If a baby doesn't think about gravity while throwing food at the dinner table, then why should the rest of us pay any attention to it?
 
2. Your 10th grade biology teacher never graduated high school.
 
1. Because Jesus Christ would rather you put your faith in Him.
 
 
 

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2001616235-1057941017=:33820-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 17:44:04 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] 30 Reasons To Become A Christian Message-ID: <20030711164404.42974.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1886169216-1057941844=:42078 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 30 Reasons To Become A Christian by Douglas Stambler 30. You get 24/7 customer service. 29. Christians make better husbands and wives. 28. Living in poverty can now be seen in a positive light! 27. Now you can tell your friends how to do all they can do to become Christians, too. 26. You can understand God a lot better. 25. You won't mind watching cheesy, Christian films about the Rapture. 24. You were tired of paying membership dues to the Masons, anyway, weren't you? 23. The architecture is terrific. 22. You don't need a membership card. 21. Who needs to golf on Sundays? 20. The persecution is a whole lot of fun. 19. The Roman Empire has come and gone. 18. You can eat as much pork as you want to. 17. Everybody's doing it... 16. Now you can be a hypocrite, too! (just joking) 15. Maybe the Crusades will come around again, and you'll get that opportunity you always wanted...to travel. 14. God wants you to. 13. Karma is not what it's cracked up to be. 12. Your life will improve in every way imaginable. 11. Maybe you're tired of not being a Christian. 10. Because Jesus Christ was in fact God. 9. Because millions of people can't be wrong about the fact that Jesus is God. 8. Now you can pray for rain without the confusion of praying to "the rain god." 7. Only Christ can release you from the burdens of your sins. 6. Free love is totally overrated. 5. The Twilight Zone is terrible inaccurate about the "supernatural." God really does exist. 4. If it's good enough for Bob Dylan, then... 3. Think of all those great hymns you get to sing now! 2. You can come alive for once. 1. Because Jesus Christ came, and died for you. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1886169216-1057941844=:42078 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
30 Reasons To Become A Christian
by Douglas Stambler
 
30. You get 24/7 customer service.
 
29. Christians make better husbands and wives.
 
28. Living in poverty can now be seen in a positive light!
 
27. Now you can tell your friends how to do all they can do to become Christians, too.
 
26. You can understand God a lot better.
 
25. You won't mind watching cheesy, Christian films about the Rapture.
 
24. You were tired of paying membership dues to the Masons, anyway, weren't you?
 
23. The architecture is terrific.
 
22. You don't need a membership card.
 
21. Who needs to golf on Sundays?
 
20. The persecution is a whole lot of fun.
 
19. The Roman Empire has come and gone.
 
18. You can eat as much pork as you want to.
 
17. Everybody's doing it...
 
16. Now you can be a hypocrite, too! (just joking)
 
15. Maybe the Crusades will come around again, and you'll get that opportunity you always wanted...to travel.
 
14. God wants you to.
 
13. Karma is not what it's cracked up to be.
 
12. Your life will improve in every way imaginable.
 
11. Maybe you're tired of not being a Christian.
 
10. Because Jesus Christ was in fact God.
 
9. Because millions of people can't be wrong about the fact that Jesus is God.
 
8. Now you can pray for rain without the confusion of praying to "the rain god."
 
7. Only Christ can release you from the burdens of your sins.
 
6. Free love is totally overrated.
 
5. The Twilight Zone is terrible inaccurate about the "supernatural."  God really does exist.
 
4. If it's good enough for Bob Dylan, then...
 
3. Think of all those great hymns you get to sing now!
 
2. You can come alive for once.
 
1. Because Jesus Christ came, and died for you.

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1886169216-1057941844=:42078-- From thansen@moscow.com Fri Jul 11 18:56:58 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:56:58 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] 30 Reasons To Become A Christian Message-ID: <200307111724.h6BHOJQU080242@whale2.fsr.net> Would I have to give up my monthly devil worship and virgin sacrifice seminars? Tom Hansen > 30 Reasons To Become A Christian > by Douglas Stambler > > 30. You get 24/7 customer service. > > 29. Christians make better husbands and wives. > > 28. Living in poverty can now be seen in a positive light! > > 27. Now you can tell your friends how to do all they can do to become Christians, too. > > 26. You can understand God a lot better. > > 25. You won't mind watching cheesy, Christian films about the Rapture. > > 24. You were tired of paying membership dues to the Masons, anyway, weren't you? > > 23. The architecture is terrific. > > 22. You don't need a membership card. > > 21. Who needs to golf on Sundays? > > 20. The persecution is a whole lot of fun. > > 19. The Roman Empire has come and gone. > > 18. You can eat as much pork as you want to. > > 17. Everybody's doing it... > > 16. Now you can be a hypocrite, too! (just joking) > > 15. Maybe the Crusades will come around again, and you'll get that opportunity you always wanted...to travel. > > 14. God wants you to. > > 13. Karma is not what it's cracked up to be. > > 12. Your life will improve in every way imaginable. > > 11. Maybe you're tired of not being a Christian. > > 10. Because Jesus Christ was in fact God. > > 9. Because millions of people can't be wrong about the fact that Jesus is God. > > 8. Now you can pray for rain without the confusion of praying to "the rain god." > > 7. Only Christ can release you from the burdens of your sins. > > 6. Free love is totally overrated. > > 5. The Twilight Zone is terrible inaccurate about the "supernatural." God really does exist. > > 4. If it's good enough for Bob Dylan, then... > > 3. Think of all those great hymns you get to sing now! > > 2. You can come alive for once. > > 1. Because Jesus Christ came, and died for you. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us Fri Jul 11 20:08:50 2003 From: skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us (Stephanie Kalasz) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:08:50 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Monday Agendas Message-ID: <93812436F60FD511A83A0002B3029EFC731545@DCFS01> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C347DF.DCABC6B0 Content-Type: text/plain The Administrative and Public Finance Committee Meetings scheduled for Monday, July 14, 2003 have been cancelled. The next meeting date will be July 21, 2003. Stephanie Kalasz Interim City Clerk City of Moscow (208) 883-7015 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C347DF.DCABC6B0 Content-Type: text/html

The Administrative and Public Finance Committee Meetings scheduled for Monday, July 14, 2003 have been cancelled.  The next meeting date will be July 21, 2003.

 

Stephanie Kalasz

Interim City Clerk

City of Moscow

(208) 883-7015

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C347DF.DCABC6B0-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Fri Jul 11 20:11:39 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:11:39 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: Luke et. al. > > > Self referential statements of various kinds can lead to > > contradictions like the ones above, exposing logical flaws in the rules >of > > structure in language. If language were logically perfect, such >statements > > would not be allowed as well formed grammatical sentences. > Luke wrote: > I don't think you've quite got it here. Part of logic is negation, and >double negation. That does not make logic false, or language false. If I >say, "This is black and not black," the statement negates and cancels >itself, but it in no way ruins grammar and reason. > So when your basic belief is a self-contradiction, it is completely >false, yet without making all truth false. It simply makes your tenet >false. >If a tent collapses on itself, it doesn't knock over all the tents near it. > You are too easily brushing aside very serious problems with language and logic. The history of modern logic demonstrates in fact that the tools of ordinary language were found to be lacking in their capacity to express logical propositions precisely and without unintended contradictions. Study the theory of types developed by Bertrand Russell, which is an attempt to avoid certain kinds of self referential contradictions in logic. The example you gave, "black and not black," is not the kind of self referential statement in question here. This web site provides background and explanations: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/russell-paradox/ > > My position is that human knowledge and thinking is so flawed, and the > > possibilities so numerous, that to claim to have solved the important > > spiritual questions that humanity has been posing for thousands of >years, > > with no doubt remaining about these questions, appears to be aimed more >at > > satisfying the emotional need for absolute spiritual belief, than at >really > > answering these questions based on evidence. > > > You are right, Luke, I sometimes do contradict myself. And I >acknowledge > > that with the limited tools of human thought, it is nearly impossible to > > think about complex belief systems without contradiction in some way. > > Will you do the same? Or are you going to claim that your thinking and > > logic is so perfect that you have not make any significant mistakes >about > > religion, such as in your interpretations of Biblical scholarship? > Luke wrote: > Neither. "Significant mistakes" would, I think, refer to something >heretical. But God's logic is so perfect and His truths so clear that even >my 2-cylinder brain can grasp the basic truths. My surety does not come >from >my logic, but from God's. You are not answering the questions posed in this dilemma. If your thinking is flawed and limited, how can you be certain you understand God's truths correctly? How do you know you are not deceiving yourself or making a significant mistake? How do you get outside the limitations of a flawed limited human mind to this perfect logic of God? I have never heard an answer to this problem that solves the dilemma. You can argue from direct inspiration from God or from revelation to a document, such as the Bible, but still you cannot escape the fact that the filtering and interpretation of the information is through a flawed limited mistake prone human mind. I think it is clear that there is reasonable doubt about these spiritual issues, and people of faith believe what they do based on faith. But then this position of religious belief leads us to the view I am advocating, a respect for other religions based on a humble realization that the intentions and thoughts of God may not conform just to one religions interpretations. Ted _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From timlohr@yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 20:49:58 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] When Will "FREE" TRADERS be held accountable? Message-ID: <20030711194958.82124.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, When will the neo-cons and so-called Democrat Leadership Council types be held accountable for the colossal failure of what they call FREE TRADE? They(the leaders of the 2 major parties) keep up the big lie that this exportation of jobs is good for our economy. It seems to be like a religion for everyone that is given any serious coverage by the mainstream press. Notice especially towards the bottom of this article that the country contributing the most to our trade deficit is of course China. The same country that not only openly boasts of having missiles capable of hitting our west coast cities, and continues to occupy and oppress Tibet but was the beneficiary of top-secret missile technology that was passed on in return for campaign contributions under Clinton. And speaking of Clinton, the NAFTA godfather, where are his comments about the deficits with the original NAFTA partners? ($4.09 Billion deficit with Canada, and the $3.42 Trillion yep that's trillion with a T!) The Free Trade agreements were sold on the racist notion that we could send the "grunt-work" jobs overseas for the lessers while we here in the good ole USA could all be software engineers. Unfortunately, that approach left out reality. The reality that the rest of the world is as good or better than Americans in the high tech sector. And not only that they'll do that work at a tenth of the wages. Let's face it, the Free Traders have failed. The only winners have been the new "International" coporations. "International" in this context is easy to define. It means not loyal. Not loyal either to the country that gave them their start or to the people that got them to where they are today. TL > > U.S. Trade Deficit Climbs in May > > > > By MARTIN CRUTSINGER > > AP Economics Writer Friday, July 11, 2003 > > America's trade deficit, on track to set an > > all-time high this year, edged up slightly to > $41.84 > > billion in May as imports of foreign cars, > > televisions and business equipment all showed big > > gains. > > > > > > The Commerce Department reported Friday that the > > May imbalance rose by 0.5 percent from the April > > deficit of $41.65 billion even though U.S. exports > > posted their best gain since January with > shipments > > of American-made autos and auto parts, computer > > chips and industrial machinery all showing gains. > > > > > > For the first five months of this year, the U.S. > > trade deficit is running at an annual rate of $492 > > billion, well above last year's record high of > $418 > > billion. > > > > > > Critics point to the soaring deficit as evidence > > that the Bush administration is pursuing a failed > > trade strategy that has furthered the loss of > > millions of American manufacturing jobs as U.S. > > companies have closed their American factories and > > moved production overseas to take advantage of > > cheaper labor. > > > > > > The administration, however, insists that the > > rising trade deficit reflects bigger economic > > forces, namely the fact that the U.S. economy, > while > > mired in an anemic economic recovery, is still > > growing faster than the rest of the world. > > > > > > Administration officials have been urging > Japanese > > and European authorities to do more to boost their > > growth rates and provide stronger markets for > > American goods. > > > > > > Also this spring, the administration made a > subtle > > shift in its policy regarding the dollar, > signaling > > that it did not plan to intervene in currency > > markets to stem the greenback's slide, a position > > American manufacturers had been urging the > > administration to take for years. > > > > > > U.S. companies have complained that an overvalued > > dollar was pricing their products out of overseas > > markets and making imported goods cheaper and more > > attractive for U.S. companies. > > > > > > The dollar's decline this year did appear to be > > boosting demand for American exports, which rose > to > > $82.05 billion in May, a 0.9 percent rise which > was > > the strongest monthly increase in percentage terms > > since January. > > > > > > The increase reflected gains of $117 million in > > sales of autos and auto parts, which rose to $6.76 > > billion in May. Other products showing increases > in > > May were exports of industrial machinery, up $101 > > million; computer accessories, up $96 million, and > > computer chips, up $50 million. > > > > > > These gains offset declines of $9 million in > > exports of farm products, which fell to $4.29 > > billion, reflecting a big drop of $177 million in > > shipments of soybeans, which offset gains in > exports > > of corn, meat and poultry and fruit. > > > > > > Imports were also up in May, rising by 0.7 > percent > > to $123.89 billion. That increase reflected a 4.7 > > percent rise in imports of foreign autos and auto > > parts, which increased to $17.67 billion during > the > > month. Imports of business equipment were up by > $75 > > million while shipments of televisions and video > > recorders climbed by $69 million. > > > > > > Imports of foreign petroleum dropped by 8.3 > percent in May to $10.34 billion with the improvement reflecting a decline in crude oil prices to an average of $24.11 per barrel, down from $26.02 in April and a high this year of $30.46 set in February. However, the volume of crude oil > imported set a monthly record of 320.5 million barrels as the United States increased its dependence on foreign oil supplies. > > > > > > By country, the United States recorded its > largest deficit with China, an imbalance of $9.86 billion,an increase of 4.3 percent from the April level. > The deficit with Japan shrank a sharp 24.8 percent to$4.49 billion in May, the smallest imbalance since January 1998. > > > > The deficit with Canada rose 7.2 percent to $4.09 > > billion in May while the deficit with Mexico, > > America's other partner in the North American Free > > Trade Agreement, was up 2.3 percent to $3.42 > > trillion. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Fri Jul 11 21:35:34 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 20:35:34 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] When Will "FREE" TRADERS be held accountable? Message-ID: Tim et. al. I agree completely. While we are sold on free trade and getting rid of government regulation as some sort of patriotic agenda to get big government off our backs, and administer the principles of capitalism as though they solve all problems, the main beneficiaries of this approach are the multinational corporations who can access the cheapest labor with none or few worker protections, avoid environmental regulation and US taxation, and then ship the goods manufactured in this manner wherever they get the best price on the planet. US workers are not yet on average seeing some grand improvement in their lot since NAFTA and the WTO, etc. have pushed the free trade agenda in recent years. And on the subject of corporation loyalty to the USA, how many people noticed that the US Congress passed legislation in the past few years under Bush that allows corporations receiving government contracts to still avoid paying taxes by sheltering assets off shore? Ted >From: Tim Lohrmann >To: Vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] When Will "FREE" TRADERS be held accountable? >Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:49:58 -0700 (PDT) > > >Visionaries, > When will the neo-cons and so-called Democrat >Leadership Council types be held accountable for the >colossal failure of what they call FREE TRADE? > > They(the leaders of the 2 major parties) keep up >the big lie that this exportation of jobs is good for >our economy. It seems to be like a religion for >everyone that is given any serious coverage by the >mainstream press. > > Notice especially towards the bottom of this >article that the country contributing the most to our >trade deficit is of course China. The same country >that not only openly boasts of having missiles capable >of hitting our west coast cities, and continues to >occupy and oppress Tibet but was the beneficiary of >top-secret missile technology that was passed on in >return for campaign contributions under Clinton. > And speaking of Clinton, the NAFTA godfather, where >are his comments about the deficits with the original >NAFTA partners? ($4.09 Billion deficit with Canada, >and the $3.42 Trillion yep that's trillion with a T!) > > The Free Trade agreements were sold on the racist >notion that we could send the "grunt-work" jobs >overseas for the lessers while we here in the good ole >USA could all be software engineers. Unfortunately, >that approach left out reality. The reality that the >rest of the world is as good or better than Americans >in the high tech sector. And not only that they'll do >that work at a tenth of the wages. > Let's face it, the Free Traders have failed. The >only winners have been the new "International" >coporations. "International" in this context is easy >to define. It means not loyal. Not loyal either to the >country that gave them their start or to the people >that got them to where they are today. > TL > > > > > > U.S. Trade Deficit Climbs in May > > > > > > By MARTIN CRUTSINGER > > > AP Economics Writer > Friday, July 11, 2003 > > > > America's trade deficit, on track to set an > > > all-time high this year, edged up slightly to > > $41.84 > > > billion in May as imports of foreign cars, > > > televisions and business equipment all showed big > > > gains. > > > > > > > > > The Commerce Department reported Friday that the > > > May imbalance rose by 0.5 percent from the April > > > deficit of $41.65 billion even though U.S. exports > > > posted their best gain since January with > > shipments > > > of American-made autos and auto parts, computer > > > chips and industrial machinery all showing gains. > > > > > > > > > For the first five months of this year, the U.S. > > > trade deficit is running at an annual rate of $492 > > > billion, well above last year's record high of > > $418 > > > billion. > > > > > > > > > Critics point to the soaring deficit as evidence > > > that the Bush administration is pursuing a failed > > > trade strategy that has furthered the loss of > > > millions of American manufacturing jobs as U.S. > > > companies have closed their American factories and > > > moved production overseas to take advantage of > > > cheaper labor. > > > > > > > > > The administration, however, insists that the > > > rising trade deficit reflects bigger economic > > > forces, namely the fact that the U.S. economy, > > while > > > mired in an anemic economic recovery, is still > > > growing faster than the rest of the world. > > > > > > > > > Administration officials have been urging > > Japanese > > > and European authorities to do more to boost their > > > growth rates and provide stronger markets for > > > American goods. > > > > > > > > > Also this spring, the administration made a > > subtle > > > shift in its policy regarding the dollar, > > signaling > > > that it did not plan to intervene in currency > > > markets to stem the greenback's slide, a position > > > American manufacturers had been urging the > > > administration to take for years. > > > > > > > > > U.S. companies have complained that an overvalued > > > dollar was pricing their products out of overseas > > > markets and making imported goods cheaper and more > > > attractive for U.S. companies. > > > > > > > > > The dollar's decline this year did appear to be > > > boosting demand for American exports, which rose > > to > > > $82.05 billion in May, a 0.9 percent rise which > > was > > > the strongest monthly increase in percentage terms > > > since January. > > > > > > > > > The increase reflected gains of $117 million in > > > sales of autos and auto parts, which rose to $6.76 > > > billion in May. Other products showing increases > > in > > > May were exports of industrial machinery, up $101 > > > million; computer accessories, up $96 million, and > > > computer chips, up $50 million. > > > > > > > > > These gains offset declines of $9 million in > > > exports of farm products, which fell to $4.29 > > > billion, reflecting a big drop of $177 million in > > > shipments of soybeans, which offset gains in > > exports > > > of corn, meat and poultry and fruit. > > > > > > > > > Imports were also up in May, rising by 0.7 > > percent > > > to $123.89 billion. That increase reflected a 4.7 > > > percent rise in imports of foreign autos and auto > > > parts, which increased to $17.67 billion during > > the > > > month. Imports of business equipment were up by > > $75 > > > million while shipments of televisions and video > > > recorders climbed by $69 million. > > > > > > > > > Imports of foreign petroleum dropped by 8.3 > > percent in May to $10.34 billion with the >improvement reflecting a decline in crude oil prices >to an average of $24.11 per barrel, down from $26.02 >in April and a high this year of $30.46 set in >February. However, the volume of crude oil > > imported set a monthly record of 320.5 million >barrels as the United States increased its dependence >on foreign oil supplies. > > > > > > > > > By country, the United States recorded its > > largest deficit with China, an imbalance of $9.86 >billion,an increase of 4.3 percent from the April >level. > > The deficit with Japan shrank a sharp 24.8 percent >to$4.49 billion in May, the smallest imbalance since > January 1998. > > > > > > The deficit with Canada rose 7.2 percent to $4.09 > > > billion in May while the deficit with Mexico, > > > America's other partner in the North American Free > > > Trade Agreement, was up 2.3 percent to $3.42 > > > trillion. > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >http://sbc.yahoo.com > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From dale@courtneys.us Fri Jul 11 21:38:47 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:38:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] When Will "FREE" TRADERS be held accountable? In-Reply-To: <20030711194958.82124.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002d01c347ec$77699d10$ca01a8c0@home> Tim wrote: > When will the neo-cons and so-called Democrat > Leadership Council types be held accountable for the > colossal failure of what they call FREE TRADE? > > They(the leaders of the 2 major parties) keep up > the big lie that this exportation of jobs is good for > our economy. It seems to be like a religion for > everyone that is given any serious coverage by the > mainstream press. Tim, it's time to wake-up and smell the coffee. We *are* in a global economy whether we like it or not. It's not that these councils have *created* a global economy. See Alvin Toffler's "The Third Wave" -- we've moved on from the old industrialized period into something new (whatever you want to call it). Unless you want to turn off the internet, you cannot keep outsourceable labor from shifting from expensive areas (e.g., the USA) to lesser expensive areas (e.g., India, Pakistan). In one respect, we've priced ourselves out of the general labor pool -- at least labor that can be outsourced via the web (e.g., tech jobs). Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Fri Jul 11 23:44:10 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:44:10 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] When Will "FREE" TRADERS be held accountable? Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FC0@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Isn't the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) synonymous with President George W. Bush Sr.? I am certainly happy to see that the Bush family is taking care of everything. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: Dale Courtney [mailto:dale@courtneys.us] Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 1:39 PM To: Vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] When Will "FREE" TRADERS be held accountable? Tim wrote: > When will the neo-cons and so-called Democrat > Leadership Council types be held accountable for the > colossal failure of what they call FREE TRADE? > > They(the leaders of the 2 major parties) keep up > the big lie that this exportation of jobs is good for > our economy. It seems to be like a religion for > everyone that is given any serious coverage by the > mainstream press. Tim, it's time to wake-up and smell the coffee. We *are* in a global economy whether we like it or not. It's not that these councils have *created* a global economy. See Alvin Toffler's "The Third Wave" -- we've moved on from the old industrialized period into something new (whatever you want to call it). Unless you want to turn off the internet, you cannot keep outsourceable labor from shifting from expensive areas (e.g., the USA) to lesser expensive areas (e.g., India, Pakistan). In one respect, we've priced ourselves out of the general labor pool -- at least labor that can be outsourced via the web (e.g., tech jobs). Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sat Jul 12 01:59:01 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:59:01 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] When Will "FREE" TRADERS be held accountable? Message-ID: All: Of course we are in a global economy! Why point out something that I am sure Tim and everyone is aware of? Also, your point about the internet jobs sent to other nations is not quite correct. We would not have to dismantle the internet to stop this business practice. US based companies could be prevented by law from outsourcing jobs that use the internet to other nations. And it can be determined if a company is using the internet to outsource jobs to other countries, so such a law would be enforceable. The question is, are we going to adopt trade polices that help US workers to maintain the best wages and benefits possible, or are we going to adopt trade policies that favor the most profits for multinational corporations who could give a hoot about the US worker? We could also ask to what extent these two agendas are mutually exclusive. Ted >> >> > > U.S. Trade Deficit Climbs in May >> > > >> > > By MARTIN CRUTSINGER >> > > AP Economics Writer >> Friday, July 11, 2003 >> >> > > America's trade deficit, on track to set an >> > > all-time high this year, edged up slightly to >> > $41.84 >> > > billion in May as imports of foreign cars, >> > > televisions and business equipment all showed big >> > > gains. >> > > >> > > >> > > The Commerce Department reported Friday that the >> > > May imbalance rose by 0.5 percent from the April >> > > deficit of $41.65 billion even though U.S. exports >> > > posted their best gain since January with >> > shipments >> > > of American-made autos and auto parts, computer >> > > chips and industrial machinery all showing gains. >> > > >> > > >> > > For the first five months of this year, the U.S. >> > > trade deficit is running at an annual rate of $492 >> > > billion, well above last year's record high of >> > $418 >> > > billion. >> > > >> > > >> > > Critics point to the soaring deficit as evidence >> > > that the Bush administration is pursuing a failed >> > > trade strategy that has furthered the loss of >> > > millions of American manufacturing jobs as U.S. >> > > companies have closed their American factories and >> > > moved production overseas to take advantage of >> > > cheaper labor. >> > > >> > > >> > > The administration, however, insists that the >> > > rising trade deficit reflects bigger economic >> > > forces, namely the fact that the U.S. economy, >> > while >> > > mired in an anemic economic recovery, is still >> > > growing faster than the rest of the world. >> > > >> > > >> > > Administration officials have been urging >> > Japanese >> > > and European authorities to do more to boost their >> > > growth rates and provide stronger markets for >> > > American goods. >> > > >> > > >> > > Also this spring, the administration made a >> > subtle >> > > shift in its policy regarding the dollar, >> > signaling >> > > that it did not plan to intervene in currency >> > > markets to stem the greenback's slide, a position >> > > American manufacturers had been urging the >> > > administration to take for years. >> > > >> > > >> > > U.S. companies have complained that an overvalued >> > > dollar was pricing their products out of overseas >> > > markets and making imported goods cheaper and more >> > > attractive for U.S. companies. >> > > >> > > >> > > The dollar's decline this year did appear to be >> > > boosting demand for American exports, which rose >> > to >> > > $82.05 billion in May, a 0.9 percent rise which >> > was >> > > the strongest monthly increase in percentage terms >> > > since January. >> > > >> > > >> > > The increase reflected gains of $117 million in >> > > sales of autos and auto parts, which rose to $6.76 >> > > billion in May. Other products showing increases >> > in >> > > May were exports of industrial machinery, up $101 >> > > million; computer accessories, up $96 million, and >> > > computer chips, up $50 million. >> > > >> > > >> > > These gains offset declines of $9 million in >> > > exports of farm products, which fell to $4.29 >> > > billion, reflecting a big drop of $177 million in >> > > shipments of soybeans, which offset gains in >> > exports >> > > of corn, meat and poultry and fruit. >> > > >> > > >> > > Imports were also up in May, rising by 0.7 >> > percent >> > > to $123.89 billion. That increase reflected a 4.7 >> > > percent rise in imports of foreign autos and auto >> > > parts, which increased to $17.67 billion during >> > the >> > > month. Imports of business equipment were up by >> > $75 >> > > million while shipments of televisions and video >> > > recorders climbed by $69 million. >> > > >> > > >> > > Imports of foreign petroleum dropped by 8.3 >> > percent in May to $10.34 billion with the >>improvement reflecting a decline in crude oil prices >>to an average of $24.11 per barrel, down from $26.02 >>in April and a high this year of $30.46 set in >>February. However, the volume of crude oil >> > imported set a monthly record of 320.5 million >>barrels as the United States increased its dependence >>on foreign oil supplies. >> > > >> > > >> > > By country, the United States recorded its >> > largest deficit with China, an imbalance of $9.86 >>billion,an increase of 4.3 percent from the April >>level. >> > The deficit with Japan shrank a sharp 24.8 percent >>to$4.49 billion in May, the smallest imbalance since >> January 1998. >> > > >> > > The deficit with Canada rose 7.2 percent to $4.09 >> > > billion in May while the deficit with Mexico, >> > > America's other partner in the North American Free >> > > Trade Agreement, was up 2.3 percent to $3.42 >> > > trillion. >> >> _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From timlohr@yahoo.com Sat Jul 12 05:47:23 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 21:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] When Will "FREE" TRADERS be held accountable? In-Reply-To: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FC0@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <20030712044723.24774.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Tom, YES, daddy Bush and Ronnie and their neocon brain trust were the "intellectual"(I use the term advisedly)fathers of NAFTA. However, one of the big reasons Clinton got the support of his Wall Street backers, such as his Sec. of the Treasury who was the head of Goldman Sachs, was because they correctly believed he'd be able to marshall the votes in Congress to actually get the scheme passed. He fought mightily and promised every porkbarrel project he could to get the required NAFTA votes. And despite the fact that every poll imaginable showed that the American people opposed it by large margins, he was successful in getting enough Demos. to peel off and vote YES for NAFTA. I'll never forget the debate between Perot and Algore on Larry King's show. Algore incorrectly stated that the SMOOT/HAWLEY protectionist tariff legislation brought on the great depression. He neglected to mention that SMOOT/HAWLEY was passed in 1930. A full year after the Wall Street crash and many years after the agricultural sector was already in full blown depression. Remember the dustbowl years of the 20's and the Okies, Arkies, and etc.? Unfortunately Perot was either uninformed or too tired from a day of anti-NAFTA lobbying to call Al on it. That was truly a defining moment in the debate. TL --- Thomas Hansen wrote: > Isn't the North American Free Trade Agreement > (NAFTA) synonymous with > President George W. Bush Sr.? > > I am certainly happy to see that the Bush family is > taking care of > everything. > > Tom Hansen > Moscow, Idaho > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dale Courtney [mailto:dale@courtneys.us] > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 1:39 PM > To: Vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] When Will "FREE" TRADERS > be held accountable? > > > Tim wrote: > > > When will the neo-cons and so-called Democrat > > Leadership Council types be held accountable for > the > > colossal failure of what they call FREE TRADE? > > > > They(the leaders of the 2 major parties) keep > up > > the big lie that this exportation of jobs is good > for > > our economy. It seems to be like a religion for > > everyone that is given any serious coverage by the > > mainstream press. > > Tim, it's time to wake-up and smell the coffee. We > *are* in a global economy > whether we like it or not. It's not that these > councils have *created* a > global economy. > > See Alvin Toffler's "The Third Wave" -- we've moved > on from the old > industrialized period into something new (whatever > you want to call it). > > Unless you want to turn off the internet, you cannot > keep outsourceable > labor from shifting from expensive areas (e.g., the > USA) to lesser expensive > areas (e.g., India, Pakistan). In one respect, we've > priced ourselves out of > the general labor pool -- at least labor that can be > outsourced via the web > (e.g., tech jobs). > > Best, > Dale Courtney > Moscow, Idaho > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From timlohr@yahoo.com Sat Jul 12 06:03:51 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] When Will "FREE" TRADERS be held accountable? In-Reply-To: <002d01c347ec$77699d10$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: <20030712050351.75811.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Dale, A great example of the BIG LIE that is perpetrated about the so-called FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS. In short the FREE TRADERS have, quite successfully transformed the debate from "what's in our own national interests" into "you can't do anything about it." Of course we're in a global economy. We have been for years. The question is what's wrong with negotiating trade deals based on what's in our own country's and our citizens' interest instead of giving the decisionmaking authority over to global bureaucrats? We're perfectly capable of negotiating bi-lateral trade agreements with any country in the world why cede that authority to some supernational body that is even less responsive to democratic input from the citizenry? We haven't moved on from the industrial period at all. We've merely moved the industrial sectors to countries that don't include the environmental and labor costs of production into their products. If you take an honest look at the incredible use of filthy coal powered energy, child labor and prison labor in many of the countries from which we import manufactured goods, you'll see what I mean. We quit allowing kids to work in factories years ago and we demand at least some protection from polluting factories. But gee, it sure was efficient wasn't it? So lets just let the corporations do it anyway right? Only we'll hide the effects in countries thousands of miles away so we won't feel bad about all the incredibly cheap products not reflecting the true costs of production that these countries turn out. Sure, we've priced ourselves out of the labor market if we're forced to compete with the conditions and terms present in many of these countries. People here want a living wage, don't want kids working in factories, don't believe in involuntary servitude, and want some protection from dangerous pollutants. That's what 'FREE TRADE' is all about. You don't want to compete with countries paying slave wages and with no safety or environmental protections? Tough, we're gonna do it anyway TL > > Tim, it's time to wake-up and smell the coffee. We > *are* in a global economy > whether we like it or not. It's not that these > councils have *created* a > global economy. > > See Alvin Toffler's "The Third Wave" -- we've moved > on from the old > industrialized period into something new (whatever > you want to call it). > > Unless you want to turn off the internet, you cannot > keep outsourceable > labor from shifting from expensive areas (e.g., the > USA) to lesser expensive > areas (e.g., India, Pakistan). In one respect, we've > priced ourselves out of > the general labor pool -- at least labor that can be > outsourced via the web > (e.g., tech jobs). > > Best, > Dale Courtney > Moscow, Idaho > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From dale@courtneys.us Sat Jul 12 06:31:48 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:31:48 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] When Will "FREE" TRADERS be held accountable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005001c34836$e43c0b40$ca01a8c0@home> Ted wrote: > Of course we are in a global economy! Why point out > something that I am sure Tim and everyone is aware of? Because there is a subtle assumption that the Federal Government is *creating* a global economy. > Also, your point about the internet jobs sent to other > nations is not quite > correct. We would not have to dismantle the internet to stop > this business > practice. US based companies could be prevented by law from > outsourcing > jobs that use the internet to other nations. And it can be > determined if a > company is using the internet to outsource jobs to other > countries, so such > a law would be enforceable. Well, since nearly *every* US firm has overseas branches, how would you propose to stop it? For example, Oracle is to more than double its software development staff in India (http://www.computerworld.com/computerworld/exs/story/0,5324,82909,00.html?n lid=AM). Take a look at Oracle's offices globally (http://www.oracle.com/global). Would you suggest that they shutdown all international operations? Or only hire Americans? Or what? American corporations are not *just* in America any more. Again, it is naive to assume that jobs don't go to the best worker for the lowest cost. America has in a lot of sectors priced itself out of the labor market, and trade barriers will not work in the new economy. If you *really* want to save jobs, then I suggest you look at playing by the new rules and not the old ones. Again, I'd encourage you to read Toffler's "The Third Wave" -- a very revealing (albeit dated) book about the new economy. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From thansen@moscow.com Sat Jul 12 13:56:18 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 05:56:18 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] When Will "FREE" TRADERS be held accountable? In-Reply-To: <005001c34836$e43c0b40$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: The truth is that something can be done about it. It has been discussed before, but (as for usual) all it received was "lip service". You simply apply an import tax against shipments of goods received from companies who manufacture their goods in sub-standard (read that to mean "sweat shops") third world countries, until employee wages (in those manufacuring facilities) become commensurate with factory workers in the US. This could work. However, a major side-effect would be increased costs to the consumer. In either case, nothing is "free". Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sat Jul 12 23:28:33 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 22:28:33 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] CBS Article On Bush Altered Message-ID: http://truthout.org/docs_03/071203A.shtml _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From nielsen@uidaho.edu Sun Jul 13 00:05:59 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 16:05:59 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell in the Bible Message-ID: <665F82B4-B4BD-11D7-BDE2-00039385F674@uidaho.edu> From: "Luke" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 6:45:01 PM US/Pacific To: "Ralph Nielsen" Cc: "vision2020" Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell? Dear Visionaries: I had thought that it was commonly understood courtesy to keep off-list conversations off-list. Am I mistaken? Is this something acceptable on Vision2020? RALPH NIELSEN (July 12) This conversation began in a public forum, so I think it is perfectly acceptable to continue it in public. Mr. Nielson, since you decided to turn private into public: One reason I am not going to perpetuate an endless debate against you is that you don't want to believe the truths of the Bible. Even if I was able to logically shatter every argument you placed on the board, it would be futile. You would never give up. You do not truly understand the Scriptures because you refuse to; and you refuse to because you do not wish to understand them. So in your unhappiness you twist them. RALPH NIELSEN (July 12) Luke Nieuwsma refuses to look at the evidence I presented in support of my views. Instead of presenting us with evidence that I am incorrect he makes the absurd claim that I "don't want to believe the truths of the Bible." Unfortunately, it is Luke who doesn't want to accept the evidence of the Bible, so in his unhappiness he twists it to mean what he wants it to mean and ignores what it actually says. His circular argument above applies to himself, not to me. At the end end of April the Pacific Northwest Division of The Society of Biblical Literature, the oldest and largest association of biblical scholars, held its annual meeting at the University of Idaho. Doug Wilson and all of his associates were specially invited to attend but not one showed up. We had scholars from Seattle Pacific, Walla Walla College, Northwest Nazarene, Albertson, Pacific Lutheran, Seattle University, etc., but not a single teacher or student from New Saint Andrew's appeared. My readers can draw their own conclusions about their intellectual integrity and biblical scholarship. I will repeat what I wrote earlier, so Luke cannot misrepresent me. If he thinks that the Jewish, Catholic and Protestant scholars I quote below "don't want to believe the truths of the Bible" I challenge him and his mentors to state their objections in a refereed journal of biblical scholarship. But don't hold your breath, folks. > RALPH NIELSEN > Poor Luke, a victim of fundamentalist propaganda. I hope he eventually > grows up and thinks for himself. He imagines that I am attacking what > the Bible says. He couldn't be more wrong. I said that there is no life > after death in the Hebrew religion, i.e., the pre-Exilic religion of > the Hebrew people as we have it in the Bible. But Luke doesn't believe > the Bible. > > I will have other things to do in the next few days, so I will just > leave my reading public with a few references to show that I am not > spouting off some half-baked opinions of my own, as Luke seems to > suggest, but am presenting biblical facts recognized by established > scholars, both Jewish and Christian. > > "Much later, biblical religion postulated that the ultimate destiny of > the individual does not end with death. There is not a hint of this > suggestion in the Torah [the first 5 books of the Bible. RN], however, > or in most of the Bible. There, human death is final. Whatever ideal > state an individual Israelite can hope to achieve is restricted to > one's lifetime and is conditional on heeding God's commands; material > prosperity, good health, length of days, self-determination, posterity, > and peace (Deuteronomy 28:1-14). With the possible exception of Elijah > and Enoch, all biblical personalities die and their death is final." > (Etz Hayim, Torah and Commentary. The Rabbinical Assembly, The United > Synagogue of Conservative Judaism. Produced by the Jewish Publication > Society, c2001). Article on Eschatology, p. 1436. > > "Life after death. It is generally held by scholars that no hope of > individual survival after death is expressed in the Old Testament > before some of its latest passages, which were probably written in the > 2d century BC." (The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Raymond > E. Brown [et al.]. Prentice Hall, c1990). Article on Eschatology and > the Afterlife, p. 1313. > > "In the preexilic period, there was no notion of a judgment of the > dead based on their actions during life, nor is there any evidence for > a belief that the righteous dead go to live in God's presence. The two > persons in the Hebrew Bible who are taken to heaven to live with God, > Enoch (Gen. 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:11), do not die. All who die, > righteous or wicked, go to Sheol (see Gen. 42:38; Num. 16:30-33)." (The > Oxford Companion to the Bible. Edited by Bruce M. Metzger, Michael D. > Coogan. Oxford University Press, c1993). Article on Afterlife and > Immortality, p. 15. > > I have no doubt that young Luke Nieuwsma is sincere in his ignorance > but I have no respect for the shysters and scoundrels, both religious > and political, who mislead people like him. Our best defense against > them is a good biblical education. > > As a retired librarian, I would recommend the books mentioned above, as > well as Remedial Christianity; What Every Believer Should Know about > the Faith, but Probably Doesn't, by Paul Alan Laughlin. Polebridge > Press, c2000. Your local bookstore will be glad to order them for you. > > Ralph Nielsen > > From dale@courtneys.us Sun Jul 13 00:25:19 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 16:25:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell in the Bible In-Reply-To: <665F82B4-B4BD-11D7-BDE2-00039385F674@uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <009601c348cc$dbdd7d80$ca01a8c0@home> Nieuwsma wrote: > Dear Visionaries: > I had thought that it was commonly understood courtesy to keep > off-list conversations off-list. Am I mistaken? Is this something > acceptable on Vision2020? Nielsen responded: > RALPH NIELSEN (July 12) > This conversation began in a public forum, so I think > it is perfectly acceptable to continue it in public. Mr. Nielsen, it is considered the height of bad netiquette to forward private posts to a public forum without the originator's permission to do so. be glad that Vision2020 *isn't* a moderated forum. In every moderated forum I've been a member of, it is immediate expulsion for posting private messages to public forums. Must be a Moscow-thing, or a UI-thing. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sun Jul 13 05:18:57 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 04:18:57 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Bush Hides Bad Economic News Message-ID: http://slate.msn.com/id/2085481/ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ttrail@moscow.com Mon Jul 14 01:16:46 2003 From: ttrail@moscow.com (Tom Trail) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 16:16:46 -0800 Subject: [Vision2020] Precedent for Internment Message-ID: Visionaries: I read with interest a short article in the June 2003 Asian American Comparative Collection Newsletter. The article was entitled, Precedent for Internment? During the Great Depression the U.S. government eacted the repatriation Program as an "austerity measure." Directed against Mexicans in the U.S. especially Detroit, over one million people were deported to Mexico; 60% were American citizens (is this sounding familiar?) Their descendants have researched this shameful, little-known episode and have produced "Los Repatriados: Exiles from the Promisted Land," a project consisting of oral histories and a video, the latter based on immigration documents, congressional records, and newspaper articles, and on scholarly accounts by Dennis Valdes, Zaragosa, Vargas and others. For more information contact Elena Herrada (emhgv@juno.com) I was frankly amazed at this little known episode of American History, and it can only make one wonder if we're headed down the same road again. Tom Trail -- Dr. Tom Trail International Trails 1375 Mt. View Rd. Moscow, Id. 83843 Tel: (208) 882-6077 Fax: (208) 882-0896 e mail ttrail@moscow.com From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jul 14 14:58:13 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 06:58:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! Message-ID: <000b01c34a0f$f7d7b660$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C349D5.4B78DE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit July 11 was the "Cost of Government Day". * Total Cost of Government: $4.96 Trillion * Per Person Cost of Government: $17,017 * Number of Days worked to pay for government: 193 The cost of government change from 2000-2003: 9.7% increase * Federal Spending: 12.4% increase * State/Local Spending: 6.6% increase * Federal Regulations: 8.4% increase * State Regulations: 8.5% increase Bottom Line: The average American has worked a cumulative 35 more days to pay for the cost of government since 2000. You are now free to earn income for the rest of the year to pay for your other needs and wants. Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C349D5.4B78DE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
July=20 11 was the "Cost of Government Day".
  • Total=20 Cost of Government: $4.96 Trillion
  • Per=20 Person Cost of Government: $17,017
  • Number of Days worked to pay for = government:=20 193
The=20 cost of government change from 2000-2003: 9.7% = increase
  • Federal Spending: 12.4% = increase
  • State/Local Spending: 6.6%=20 increase
  • Federal Regulations: 8.4% = increase
  • State=20 Regulations: 8.5% increase
Bottom=20 Line: The average American has worked a cumulative 35 more days to pay = for the=20 cost of government since 2000.
 
You=20 are now free to earn income for the rest of the year to pay for your = other needs=20 and wants.
 
Dale=20 Courtney
Moscow, = Idaho
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C349D5.4B78DE60-- From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Mon Jul 14 15:42:09 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 07:42:09 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FC3@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Dale Courtney stated: "The cost of government change from 2000-2003: 9.7% increase Federal Spending: 12.4% increase State/Local Spending: 6.6% increase Federal Regulations: 8.4% increase State Regulations: 8.5% increase Bottom Line: The average American has worked a cumulative 35 more days to pay for the cost of government since 2000." Can we rely on your support, Mr. Courtney, to campaign/vote against President Bush and Governor Kempthorne? I know I will. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho PS - Friday: President Bush stated that he was unaware of the unsubstantiated status of the comment he made in the State of the Union Address concerning Iraq attempting to buy weapons grade uranium from an African country. Saturday: President Bush stated that the CIA did not inform him that the comment was unsubstantiated. The CIA (Director Tenet) stated that he/they had informed President Bush back in October that the attempted purchase of weapons grade uranium had not been verified. Director Tenet contemplates resignation. Sunday: President Bush supports CIA and their claim that the attempted sale was unsubstantiated. Monday (this morning): The Spokesman Review reports that the Bush Administration is standing behind the State of the Union Address that there was an attempted sale of weapons grade uranium to Iraq. Tomorrow: Who knows what we will hear from the White House? From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 15:55:36 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 07:55:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! Message-ID: Dale, What is the cost of not having a government? How much does the Government save us in the long run? Donovan J Arnold >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 06:58:13 -0700 > >July 11 was the "Cost of Government Day". > >* Total Cost of Government: $4.96 Trillion >* Per Person Cost of Government: $17,017 >* Number of Days worked to pay for government: 193 > >The cost of government change from 2000-2003: 9.7% increase > >* Federal Spending: 12.4% increase >* State/Local Spending: 6.6% increase >* Federal Regulations: 8.4% increase >* State Regulations: 8.5% increase > >Bottom Line: The average American has worked a cumulative 35 more days to >pay for the cost of government since 2000. > >You are now free to earn income for the rest of the year to pay for your >other needs and wants. > >Dale Courtney >Moscow, Idaho _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Mon Jul 14 16:07:22 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:07:22 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FC4@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Fascinating concept. Let's eliminate government all together. We are all grown up boys and girls. I am certain that we can all act maturely and responsibly. We can certainly trust each other not to do anything "wrong". Tom Hansen (in a location formerly known as "Moscow", in a section of North America formerly known as "Idaho") -----Original Message----- From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 7:56 AM To: dale@courtneys.us; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! Dale, What is the cost of not having a government? How much does the Government save us in the long run? Donovan J Arnold >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 06:58:13 -0700 > >July 11 was the "Cost of Government Day". > >* Total Cost of Government: $4.96 Trillion >* Per Person Cost of Government: $17,017 >* Number of Days worked to pay for government: 193 > >The cost of government change from 2000-2003: 9.7% increase > >* Federal Spending: 12.4% increase >* State/Local Spending: 6.6% increase >* Federal Regulations: 8.4% increase >* State Regulations: 8.5% increase > >Bottom Line: The average American has worked a cumulative 35 more days to >pay for the cost of government since 2000. > >You are now free to earn income for the rest of the year to pay for your >other needs and wants. > >Dale Courtney >Moscow, Idaho _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jul 14 16:42:46 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:42:46 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Export of core tech jobs seen as threat In-Reply-To: <20030712050351.75811.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005101c34a1e$92c0a980$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C349E3.E661D180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Export of core tech jobs seen as threat By RACHEL KONRAD Associated Press SAN JOSE - Peter Kerrigan encouraged friends to move to Silicon Valley throughout the 1980s and '90s, wooing them with tales of lucrative jobs = in a burgeoning industry. But he lost his network engineering job at a major telecommunications company in August 2001 and remains unemployed. Now 43, the veteran programmer is urging his 18-year-old nephew to stay in suburban Chicago = and is discouraging him from pursuing degrees in computer science or engineering. ''I told him, 'Unless you're planning to do this as a path to technical sales, don't do it,''' said Kerrigan, who lives in Oakland. ''He won't = be able to have a career designing and building stuff because all those = jobs have moved to India.'' Like many unemployed programmers, Kerrigan blames the sour labor market = on offshore outsourcing -- the migration of tech jobs to relatively = low-paid contractors or locally hired employees in India, China, Russia and other developing countries. The hemorrhaging of tens of thousands of technology jobs in recent years = to cheaper workers abroad is already a fact of life -- as inevitable, U.S. executives say, as the 1980s migration of Rust Belt manufacturing jobs = to Southeast Asia and Latin America. But a new wave of technology outsourcing -- involving tasks that involve greater skills -- could be cutting to the industry's bone, threatening = to prolong the three-year U.S. economic downturn. Some who oppose the trend, which such industry stalwarts as = Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Dell and Microsoft are embracing, believe it could even usher in = the end of American domination in technology. ''We're giving countries like China and India the support they need to = build up their technology industries, and the result could disadvantage us in = the long run,'' said Phil Friedman, an electrical engineer and chief = executive of New York-based Computer Generated Solutions, a 1,200-employee = software company that targets the apparel industry. ''We outsourced electronics manufacturing. We're closing steel mills. = Every week, 400,000 people file for new unemployment claims,'' said Friedman, = a 54-year-old Ukrainian native who immigrated in 1976. ''At the same time, we're shipping tech jobs offshore -- it's a shortsighted approach and = cheats the American work force.'' Cost-conscious executives have been shifting lower-level tech jobs in = data entry and systems support abroad to cheaper labor markets for more than = a decade. But now they are exporting highly paid, highly skilled positions = in software development -- jobs that have been considered intrinsic to = Silicon Valley and tech hubs such as Seattle; Boston; and Austin, Texas. Critics say it's the equivalent of exporting not just the automobile industry's assembly line jobs -- but the core engineering and car design jobs, too. Roughly 27,000 technology jobs moved overseas in 2000, according to a November study by Forrester Research. It predicts that number will = mushroom to 472,000 by 2015 if companies continue to farm out computer work at today's frenzied pace. According to Forrester, companies in the United States and Europe will = spend 28 percent of their information technology budgets on overseas work in = the next two years. Boeing, Dell and Motorola have opened software development centers in Russia. Intel employs 400 full-time Russian software research engineers = and nearly 200 others in marketing and sales, wireless Internet access and = modem projects. Santa Clara-based Intel entered the Russian market with a small contract project three years ago. But within months, the world's largest chip = maker hired all the programmers who write compiler software to optimize the microprocessors' performance, and opened the Russia Software Development Center in Nizhny Novgorod. ''We intend to invest in the fastest-growing markets, and those are = India, Russia and China -- that's the long-term plan,'' Intel spokesman Chuck Mulloy said. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C349E3.E661D180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message Export of core tech jobs seen as threat

By = RACHEL=20 KONRAD
Associated = Press

SAN JOSE -=20 Peter Kerrigan encouraged friends to move to Silicon Valley=20 throughout the 1980s and '90s, wooing them with tales of lucrative jobs = in a=20 burgeoning industry.

But he lost his network engineering job at a major telecommunications = company=20 in August 2001 and remains unemployed. Now 43, the veteran programmer is = urging=20 his 18-year-old nephew to stay in suburban Chicago and is discouraging = him from=20 pursuing degrees in computer science or engineering.

''I told him, 'Unless you're planning to do this as a path to = technical=20 sales, don't do it,''' said Kerrigan, who lives in Oakland. ''He won't = be able=20 to have a career designing and building stuff because all those jobs = have moved=20 to India.''

Like many unemployed programmers, Kerrigan blames the sour labor = market on=20 offshore outsourcing -- the migration of tech jobs to relatively = low-paid=20 contractors or locally hired employees in India, China, Russia and other = developing countries.

The hemorrhaging of tens of thousands of technology jobs in recent = years to=20 cheaper workers abroad is already a fact of life -- as inevitable, U.S.=20 executives say, as the 1980s migration of Rust Belt manufacturing jobs = to=20 Southeast Asia and Latin America.

But a new wave of technology outsourcing -- involving tasks that = involve=20 greater skills -- could be cutting to the industry's bone, threatening = to=20 prolong the three-year U.S. economic downturn.

Some who oppose the trend, which such industry stalwarts as = Hewlett-Packard,=20 IBM, Dell and Microsoft are embracing, believe it could even usher in = the end of=20 American domination in technology.

''We're giving countries like China and India the support they need = to build=20 up their technology industries, and the result could disadvantage us in = the long=20 run,'' said Phil Friedman, an electrical engineer and chief executive of = New=20 York-based Computer Generated Solutions, a 1,200-employee software = company that=20 targets the apparel industry.

''We outsourced electronics manufacturing. We're closing steel mills. = Every=20 week, 400,000 people file for new unemployment claims,'' said Friedman, = a=20 54-year-old Ukrainian native who immigrated in 1976. ''At the same time, = we're=20 shipping tech jobs offshore -- it's a shortsighted approach and cheats = the=20 American work force.''

Cost-conscious executives have been shifting lower-level tech jobs in = data=20 entry and systems support abroad to cheaper labor markets for more than = a=20 decade. But now they are exporting highly paid, highly skilled positions = in=20 software development -- jobs that have been considered intrinsic to = Silicon=20 Valley and tech hubs such as Seattle; Boston; and Austin, Texas.

Critics say it's the equivalent of exporting not just the automobile=20 industry's assembly line jobs -- but the core engineering and car design = jobs,=20 too.

Roughly 27,000 technology jobs moved overseas in 2000, according to a = November study by Forrester Research. It predicts that number will = mushroom to=20 472,000 by 2015 if companies continue to farm out computer work at = today's=20 frenzied pace.

According to Forrester, companies in the United States and Europe = will spend=20 28 percent of their information technology budgets on overseas work in = the next=20 two years.

Boeing, Dell and Motorola have opened software development centers in = Russia.=20 Intel employs 400 full-time Russian software research engineers and = nearly 200=20 others in marketing and sales, wireless Internet access and modem = projects.

Santa Clara-based Intel entered the Russian market with a small = contract=20 project three years ago. But within months, the world's largest chip = maker hired=20 all the programmers who write compiler software to optimize the = microprocessors'=20 performance, and opened the Russia Software Development Center in Nizhny = Novgorod.

''We intend to invest in the fastest-growing markets, and those are = India,=20 Russia and China -- that's the long-term plan,'' Intel spokesman Chuck = Mulloy=20 said.

 ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C349E3.E661D180-- From london@moscow.com Mon Jul 14 16:56:51 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:56:51 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Friendship Square Message-ID: <3F12D2C2.AD6C8610@moscow.com> Friendship Square was filled on Saturday during the Farmer's Market. But for anyone looking for a bathroom, it's not a friendly place. While some nearby businesses may allow customers or others to use a bathroom, there is no public restroom in the square. And that is a problem if Moscow is going to continue to build the Farmer's Market or other downtown activities into popular events for residents and visitors. Other towns that want to encourage visitors to their downtown areas (Leavenworth is an excellent example) provide public bathrooms, wheelchair accessible and placed prominently for all to locate and use. Now, the city does keep a bathroom open in what was the city hall and what is now the police station. However, few residents and virtually no visitors know of its existence. Also, it is a block away and up a stairway. Now is a good time for the city to find a solution to this problem. Friendship Square is going to be renovated soon. Economic development through increased arts/cultural event tourism is becoming more significant. Is there a place to build a permanent public restroom? Would a portable restroom suffice? BL From ddouglas@pacsim.com Mon Jul 14 17:03:04 2003 From: ddouglas@pacsim.com (David Douglas) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:03:04 -0400 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c34a21$694b61f0$e1e10e0a@LATITUDECPT5> Visionaries, Donovan writes: "What is the cost of not having a government? How much does the Government save us in the long run?" Certainly sane people prefer the most costly, bloated government to the cost of anarchy. But such a comment is an exercise in drawing a false dichotomy and/or missing the point. Making the point of that government is too big is not to advocate eliminating it, but to bring spending/intrusiveness/regulations/authority to an appropriate level--all of which will doubtless be the subject of debate. Your comment seems analogous to an obese person arguing against the concept of over-eating because eating is most beneficial--especially compared to not eating. -- David Douglas _____________________________________________________ ŻŻŻŻŻŻ From emiller101@msn.com Mon Jul 14 17:07:16 2003 From: emiller101@msn.com (Erik Miller) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:07:16 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Friendship Square Message-ID:

I agree, we need a nice public restroom in the downtown Friendship Square area. My thought is only that we should try to keep it as nice and clean as possible, I think that while portable units work great for single events, Friendship Square is permanent and should if possible have a permanent restroom.

Erik Miller
www.moscow-pullman.com

> Friendship Square was filled on Saturday during the Farmer's Market.
>
> But for anyone looking for a bathroom, it's not a friendly place.
> While some nearby businesses may allow customers or others to use a
>bathroom, there is no public restroom in the square. And that is a
>problem if Moscow is going to continue to build the Farmer's Market or
>other downtown activities into popular events for residents and
>visitors.
> Other towns that want to encourage visitors to their downtown areas
>(Leavenworth is an excellent example) provide public bathrooms,
>wheelchair accessible and placed prominently for all to locate and use.
> Now, the city does keep a bathroom open in what was the city hall
>and what is now the police station. However, few residents and
>virtually no visitors know of its existence. Also, it is a block away
>and up a stairway.
> Now is a good time for the city to find a solution to this problem.
>Friendship Square is going to be renovated soon. Economic development
>through increased arts/cultural event tourism is becoming more
>significant.
> Is there a place to build a permanent public restroom?
> Would a portable restroom suffice?
>BL

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 17:40:53 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:40:53 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! Message-ID: Concerning the George W. Bush version of "depends on what the meaning of the word is is", let me see if I've got this right. One of the administration's justifications for Dubya's assertion about Iraq, Africa and uranium is that he was quoting British intelligence. Even though the United States told these same British intelligence folks that it was probably not true months before the State of the Union address? Am I right so far? Even though our intelligence doubted the veracity of the allegation, since Bush was quoting British intelligence, the statement was justified? Have I missed something? Boy, I sure am glad we've got ourselves a Texas straight-shooter in office. Carl Westberg Jr. >From: Thomas Hansen >To: "'Dale Courtney'" , vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 07:42:09 -0700 > >Dale Courtney stated: > >"The cost of government change from 2000-2003: 9.7% increase > >Federal Spending: 12.4% increase >State/Local Spending: 6.6% increase >Federal Regulations: 8.4% increase >State Regulations: 8.5% increase > >Bottom Line: The average American has worked a cumulative 35 more days to >pay for the cost of government since 2000." > >Can we rely on your support, Mr. Courtney, to campaign/vote against >President Bush and Governor Kempthorne? > >I know I will. > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > >PS - > >Friday: President Bush stated that he was unaware of the unsubstantiated >status of the comment he made in the State of the Union Address concerning >Iraq attempting to buy weapons grade uranium from an African country. > >Saturday: President Bush stated that the CIA did not inform him that the >comment was unsubstantiated. The CIA (Director Tenet) stated that he/they >had informed President Bush back in October that the attempted purchase of >weapons grade uranium had not been verified. Director Tenet contemplates >resignation. > >Sunday: President Bush supports CIA and their claim that the attempted >sale >was unsubstantiated. > >Monday (this morning): The Spokesman Review reports that the Bush >Administration is standing behind the State of the Union Address that there >was an attempted sale of weapons grade uranium to Iraq. > >Tomorrow: Who knows what we will hear from the White House? > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jul 14 17:59:01 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:59:01 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! In-Reply-To: <000c01c34a21$694b61f0$e1e10e0a@LATITUDECPT5> Message-ID: <008301c34a29$395a7550$ca01a8c0@home> David Douglas wrote: > Your comment seems analogous to an obese person arguing > against the concept of over-eating because eating is most > beneficial--especially compared to not eating. David's analogy is a good one. What we have is an ever-obesing (for lack of a better word) civil government. The Boston Tea Party was precipitated by a 3% tax. Today, we pay 52.8% in taxes -- and the liberals say "Hey! That's not bad!" No nation has *ever* taxed itself into prosperity. Would that the American people today had the hearts of our forefathers -- to throw off the yoke of slavery that we have so willingly embraced. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From wallis@moscow.com Mon Jul 14 19:21:30 2003 From: wallis@moscow.com (wallis@moscow.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:21:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day In-Reply-To: <20030710190002.78154.65074.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <3F12923A.2075.14805946@localhost> "Cost of Government Day" is based on the estimated cost of all government, including taxes and the direct and indirect costs of government regulation. As it is complied by Americans for Tax Reform, an organization which "opposes all tax increases as a matter of principle, " it seems unlikely to be an entirely balanced estimate of such complex costs. Nevertheless it must include the cost of the air bag in your car, the cost that food producers incur to keep diseases from infecting your food supply, and a myriad of other costs imposed by government. Each of us benefits profoundly from the direct and indirect costs. And each of us can list a slew of things that government does that we don't like. It is the blessing of democratic government that we get to have a say in how much the government spends and what it is spent for. Jim Wallis From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jul 14 19:27:57 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:27:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day In-Reply-To: <3F12923A.2075.14805946@localhost> Message-ID: <009e01c34a35$a69dfe00$ca01a8c0@home> Jim Wallis wrote: > "Cost of Government Day" is based on the estimated cost of all > government, including taxes and the direct and indirect costs of > government regulation. To see exactly what was included, please see: http://www.atr.org/pdffiles/2003cogd.pdf 16.9% of our "taxed" overhead go to allowing the "government" to regulate our lives -- everything from air bags to the size of the windows in your bedroom (so much for keeping government out of the bedroom!). Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 19:40:06 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:40:06 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! Message-ID: Dale et. al. Could you give us your source or sources for these facts and also provide an in depth analysis? The absolute cost of government will go up, even if the cost per person remains constant, with population increases. What percentage of the increased cost of government is due to population increase? If the number of days the "average" American has worked to pay for government has increased 35 days since 2000, I assume this is an averaging across all incomes? Is it or is it not? We are getting a reduction in the federal income tax this year, and other types of taxation are being reduced, so how does this effect your figures? If the taxation of millionaires and billionaires results in a large increase in the amount of tax collected, just because perhaps we have more millionaires etc. than before, this may mean that the "average" worker in the lower or middle classes is not really working 35 more days to pay for the government. It may be a figure less than this. If you are averaging the cost of government across all incomes, the higher tax rates of the upper classes will mean they "work" more days per year to pay for government, unless they skip out on their taxes utilizing the various methods the wealthy have at their disposal, than the lower and middle classes. Many among the super rich do not need to "work." They can increase their wealth, and live quite well, by just investing their money, letting someone else manage their wealth, and in effect live off the labor of others. Often the money of this super rich class is invested off shore. So much for the assumption that the Bush tax cuts benefiting the super rich will result in investment leading to jobs here in the USA for the "average" working person. To say the super rich are "working" an extra 35 days a year, or whatever is really adds up to for them, to pay for government, is an insult to the average working women and men of the US doing the low paying labor many of these rich individuals would never consider doing. As you well know, throwing out a bunch of statistics and facts says almost nothing without knowing precisely what the numbers mean. And in human terms, as we say, not just economics and statistics! Ted >From: "Donovan Arnold" >To: dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 07:55:36 -0700 > >Dale, > >What is the cost of not having a government? How much does the Government >save us in the long run? > >Donovan J Arnold > >>From: "Dale Courtney" >>To: >>Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! >>Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 06:58:13 -0700 >> >>July 11 was the "Cost of Government Day". >> >>* Total Cost of Government: $4.96 Trillion >>* Per Person Cost of Government: $17,017 >>* Number of Days worked to pay for government: 193 >> >>The cost of government change from 2000-2003: 9.7% increase >> >>* Federal Spending: 12.4% increase >>* State/Local Spending: 6.6% increase >>* Federal Regulations: 8.4% increase >>* State Regulations: 8.5% increase >> >>Bottom Line: The average American has worked a cumulative 35 more days to >>pay for the cost of government since 2000. >> >>You are now free to earn income for the rest of the year to pay for your >>other needs and wants. >> >>Dale Courtney >>Moscow, Idaho > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From thansen@moscow.com Mon Jul 14 19:59:13 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:59:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree with you, Mr. Moffet. After reviewing the statistics (vague beyond belief), posted on www.atr.org (Americans for Tax Reform, a slightly biased entity) that Mr. Courtney linked his comments to, nothing really surprised me. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Ted Moffett > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:40 AM > To: donovanarnold@hotmail.com; dale@courtneys.us > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! > > > > Dale et. al. > > Could you give us your source or sources for these facts and also > provide an > in depth analysis? > > The absolute cost of government will go up, even if the cost per person > remains constant, with population increases. What percentage of the > increased cost of government is due to population increase? > > If the number of days the "average" American has worked to pay for > government has increased 35 days since 2000, I assume this is an > averaging > across all incomes? Is it or is it not? > > We are getting a reduction in the federal income tax this year, and other > types of taxation are being reduced, so how does this effect your figures? > > If the taxation of millionaires and billionaires results in a > large increase > in the amount of tax collected, just because perhaps we have more > millionaires etc. than before, this may mean that the "average" worker in > the lower or middle classes is not really working 35 more days to pay for > the government. It may be a figure less than this. If you are averaging > the cost of government across all incomes, the higher tax rates > of the upper > classes will mean they "work" more days per year to pay for government, > unless they skip out on their taxes utilizing the various methods the > wealthy have at their disposal, than the lower and middle classes. > > Many among the super rich do not need to "work." They can increase their > wealth, and live quite well, by just investing their money, > letting someone > else manage their wealth, and in effect live off the labor of > others. Often > the money of this super rich class is invested off shore. So > much for the > assumption that the Bush tax cuts benefiting the super rich will > result in > investment leading to jobs here in the USA for the "average" > working person. > > To say the super rich are "working" an extra 35 days a year, or > whatever is > really adds up to for them, to pay for government, is an insult to the > average working women and men of the US doing the low paying > labor many of > these rich individuals would never consider doing. > > As you well know, throwing out a bunch of statistics and facts > says almost > nothing without knowing precisely what the numbers mean. And in human > terms, as we say, not just economics and statistics! > > Ted > > >From: "Donovan Arnold" > >To: dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! > >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 07:55:36 -0700 > > > >Dale, > > > >What is the cost of not having a government? How much does the > Government > >save us in the long run? > > > >Donovan J Arnold > > > >>From: "Dale Courtney" > >>To: > >>Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! > >>Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 06:58:13 -0700 > >> > >>July 11 was the "Cost of Government Day". > >> > >>* Total Cost of Government: $4.96 Trillion > >>* Per Person Cost of Government: $17,017 > >>* Number of Days worked to pay for government: 193 > >> > >>The cost of government change from 2000-2003: 9.7% increase > >> > >>* Federal Spending: 12.4% increase > >>* State/Local Spending: 6.6% increase > >>* Federal Regulations: 8.4% increase > >>* State Regulations: 8.5% increase > >> > >>Bottom Line: The average American has worked a cumulative 35 > more days to > >>pay for the cost of government since 2000. > >> > >>You are now free to earn income for the rest of the year to pay for your > >>other needs and wants. > >> > >>Dale Courtney > >>Moscow, Idaho > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > >_____________________________________________________ > >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the > >communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From rforce@moscow.com Mon Jul 14 20:00:24 2003 From: rforce@moscow.com (Ron Force) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:00:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ted's right about the creative accounting employed by Grover Norquist for Cost of Government Day, and Tax Freedom Day. Here's an opinion from a religious source: http://www.ucc.org/justice/witness/wfj033103.htm Tax freedom day only means freedom for some Guest Columnist: The Rev. Ron Stief The romantic notion of April is that Spring showers will bring May flowers, but the reality of April is more likely experienced when we all send our annual tax payments to federal, state, and local governments. Every year, about now, the Tax Foundation releases a report showing how long you, the average American taxpayer, must work to pay your total tax bill for the year. Tax Freedom Day, as it is called, usually arrives somewhere around April 27. By their calculations, you will work approximately 117 days for Uncle Sam and 228 days for yourself. Not a cheery thought. Many major media outlets pick up on this idea and repeat it as gospel. But wait a minute. Do our tax payments really break down so neatly into these two categories? In his new book, Wealth and Our Commonwealth: Why America Should Tax Accumulated Fortunes, William S. Gates Sr.—the father of the more famous Bill Gates Jr.—observes that in a democracy, it is not necessarily true that what is mine is mine, and what is the government’s is not mine. "One way or another, a certain amount of money must be paid in taxes to the U.S. government to support its activities," the elder Gates writes. Gates observes that the wealthy and powerful have been able to privatize their personal and family needs through private education, private ownership of books and learning tools, private transportation, and so on. The rest of us, however, "depend on the existence of strong community and public institutions," he says. Libraries, state parks, municipal pools, public education, police and fire protection, garbage services and dozens of other public needs come to mind. Who pays for all this? Government. Even so, do we really use up 117 days of work a year to pay our taxes? Not according to economists who have criticized the method of calculation used by the Tax Foundation. To arrive at the average taxes we all pay, the Tax Foundation simply averages your salary with the tax bill of people like Bill Gates Jr. or Oprah Winfrey. It isn’t hard to imagine how that skews the result. Averages can be deceiving. Economist Robert Reich, who is 4 feet 10 inches tall, often jokes that the average height between him and Wilt Chamberlain is 6 feet—even though Reich sure doesn’t feel 6 feet tall on most days! Because this country has a progressive tax structure for federal income tax, and for some state income taxes, the wealthy pay a much higher percentage of their income in taxes than the rest of us. This is the way it should be, because if you had to pay taxes based on the straight average between you and Bill Gates Jr., you would be required to work your entire lifetime—in fact, your next several lifetimes—without ever taking a penny home for yourself. So relax, it’s not as bad as it looks. Your tax freedom day, if the concept is even valid, probably comes way before April 27. But here’s a final disturbing thought. There are some in Washington, DC who want to eliminate the progressive tax system and are hoping that you will see all the alarmist reports on "the tax burden" this April and do what most Americans do—support every tax cut that comes along. President Bush, who obviously enjoys taking advantage of our lack of understanding of tax policy, is pushing a $726 billion tax cut which prominently features a new exemption of taxes on investment income. You know, the tax break he’s talking about. It’s on that extra check you get each month from your huge stock holdings that are probably worth several million by now. For the huge majority of us who still depend on public services, this tax cut translates into guaranteed ongoing cuts in programs as varied as public education, health care, Medicare, Medicaid, veterans assistance, schooling for children on military bases, food stamps, farm programs, and first responder homeland security, such as police, fire and other emergency protection. In order to pay for these crucial public services that can no longer be funded, guess who will receive state and local tax increases next year in exchange for this year’s federal tax cut for the wealthy? Should Congress ultimately approve this ill advised tax cut scam, the wealthy will get their May flowers and the rest of us will be left knee deep in the mud. The Rev. Ron Stief is Director of the Washington, DC office of the United Church of Christ’s Justice and Witness Ministries. ******************************************** Ron Force rforce@moscow.com Moscow Idaho USA ******************************************** From thansen@moscow.com Mon Jul 14 20:05:57 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:05:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day In-Reply-To: <009e01c34a35$a69dfe00$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: Upon review of this file (http://www.atr.org/pdffiles/2003cogd.pdf), I discovered something very interesting. The first chart reflects that the "cost of government" increased under Republican administrations (Reagan, Bush Sr., and Bush Jr.) and decreased (drastically) under Democratic administrations (Carter and Clinton). Can I put you down for a contribution to the Democratic Party, Mr. Courtney? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Dale Courtney > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:28 AM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day > > > Jim Wallis wrote: > > > "Cost of Government Day" is based on the estimated cost of all > > government, including taxes and the direct and indirect costs of > > government regulation. > > To see exactly what was included, please see: > http://www.atr.org/pdffiles/2003cogd.pdf > > 16.9% of our "taxed" overhead go to allowing the "government" to regulate > our lives -- everything from air bags to the size of the windows in your > bedroom (so much for keeping government out of the bedroom!). > > Best, > Dale Courtney > Moscow, Idaho > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 20:05:48 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:05:48 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! Message-ID: Dale Writes: "The Boston Tea Party was precipitated by a 3% tax. Today, we pay 52.8% in taxes -- and the liberals say "Hey! That's not bad!" No nation has *ever* taxed itself into prosperity." First, it was only about 12 people in a nation of less then 3 million that through tea overboard. Second, it was not the 3% tax that bothered them, it was "taxation without representation". Ever hear that term? That is where it came from. Third, it was the fact that the tax went to King George to fight four wars that England was involved in and did not go to colonies that bothered the 12 people. As soon as the United States was formed taxes were higher then 3%. The Contential Congress also taxed people a higher rate to fight the British in the war. Finally, if no nation has ever taxed themselves to prosperity then how can the US going from 3% tax and a nation of 3 million and not even being recognized as a country by even the French, to taxing 52.8% and now being nearly 300 million and the most powerful nation in the world. According to your rule of thumb, nations and states that tax the least should be doing better. In fact, the opposite is usually the case. Mississippi, Arkansas, and Alabama are the least taxed and most underdeveloped. While states like New York, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island are heavily taxed and highly developed. I am not saying that a 100% tax is good. But taxing the rich heavily and bringing that wealth to the people that do the work has always changed society for the good. FDR knew this and taxed the rich heavily and spent heavily, creating jobs and government programs that provided energy, food, parks, roads, and other public services that greatly increased the quality of life in the United States. So yes, I think if 10% of the people have 90% of the money, tax the sh*t out of them and give some back to the 90% of the people that do the work : ). Donovan J Arnold >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day! >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:59:01 -0700 > >David Douglas wrote: > > Your comment seems analogous to an obese person arguing > > against the concept of over-eating because eating is most > > beneficial--especially compared to not eating. > >David's analogy is a good one. What we have is an ever-obesing (for lack of >a better word) civil government. > >The Boston Tea Party was precipitated by a 3% tax. Today, we pay 52.8% in >taxes -- and the liberals say "Hey! That's not bad!" No nation has *ever* >taxed itself into prosperity. > >Would that the American people today had the hearts of our forefathers -- >to >throw off the yoke of slavery that we have so willingly embraced. > >Best, >Dale Courtney >Moscow, Idaho > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 20:22:04 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:22:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day Message-ID: Don't confuse people with facts Tom! Dale likes complaining, the only way he gets to do that is with a Republican City government, Republican County Government, and a Republican Federal Government. If they were all Democrats he would not have anything to complain about except maybe making so much money he would get knocked into a higher tax bracket. Donovan J Arnold >From: "Tom Hansen" >Reply-To: >To: "Dale Courtney" , >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:05:57 -0700 > >Upon review of this file (http://www.atr.org/pdffiles/2003cogd.pdf), I >discovered something very interesting. The first chart reflects that the >"cost of government" increased under Republican administrations (Reagan, >Bush Sr., and Bush Jr.) and decreased (drastically) under Democratic >administrations (Carter and Clinton). > >Can I put you down for a contribution to the Democratic Party, Mr. >Courtney? > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > Behalf Of Dale Courtney > > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:28 AM > > To: vision2020@moscow.com > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day > > > > > > Jim Wallis wrote: > > > > > "Cost of Government Day" is based on the estimated cost of all > > > government, including taxes and the direct and indirect costs of > > > government regulation. > > > > To see exactly what was included, please see: > > http://www.atr.org/pdffiles/2003cogd.pdf > > > > 16.9% of our "taxed" overhead go to allowing the "government" to >regulate > > our lives -- everything from air bags to the size of the windows in your > > bedroom (so much for keeping government out of the bedroom!). > > > > Best, > > Dale Courtney > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 20:25:06 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:25:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day Message-ID: Actually, I personally have been taxed much less under the Bush administrations then the Clinton administration. But that is probably because I could find gainful employment when Clinton was President. Donovan J Arnold >From: "Tom Hansen" >Reply-To: >To: "Dale Courtney" , >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:05:57 -0700 > >Upon review of this file (http://www.atr.org/pdffiles/2003cogd.pdf), I >discovered something very interesting. The first chart reflects that the >"cost of government" increased under Republican administrations (Reagan, >Bush Sr., and Bush Jr.) and decreased (drastically) under Democratic >administrations (Carter and Clinton). > >Can I put you down for a contribution to the Democratic Party, Mr. >Courtney? > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > Behalf Of Dale Courtney > > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:28 AM > > To: vision2020@moscow.com > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day > > > > > > Jim Wallis wrote: > > > > > "Cost of Government Day" is based on the estimated cost of all > > > government, including taxes and the direct and indirect costs of > > > government regulation. > > > > To see exactly what was included, please see: > > http://www.atr.org/pdffiles/2003cogd.pdf > > > > 16.9% of our "taxed" overhead go to allowing the "government" to >regulate > > our lives -- everything from air bags to the size of the windows in your > > bedroom (so much for keeping government out of the bedroom!). > > > > Best, > > Dale Courtney > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 21:00:56 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:00:56 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day Message-ID: Dale et. al. To expect the information on the web site Dale gave from Americans For Tax Reform to be accurate, unbiased and comprehensive in it's analysis of the whole economic picture regarding income and taxation, is like expecting the virtues of capitalism and the evils of taxation to be presented in an unbiased, accurate and comprehensive manner at the following web site: http://www.wsws.org Ted >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:27:57 -0700 > >Jim Wallis wrote: > > > "Cost of Government Day" is based on the estimated cost of all > > government, including taxes and the direct and indirect costs of > > government regulation. > >To see exactly what was included, please see: > http://www.atr.org/pdffiles/2003cogd.pdf > >16.9% of our "taxed" overhead go to allowing the "government" to regulate >our lives -- everything from air bags to the size of the windows in your >bedroom (so much for keeping government out of the bedroom!). > >Best, >Dale Courtney >Moscow, Idaho > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jul 14 21:16:29 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:16:29 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ad01c34a44$cf8e0ad0$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C34A0A.232F32D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Dale et. al. > > To expect the information on the web site Dale gave from > Americans For Tax > Reform to be accurate, unbiased and comprehensive in it's > analysis of the > whole economic picture regarding income and taxation, is like > expecting the > virtues of capitalism and the evils of taxation to be presented in an > unbiased, accurate and comprehensive manner at the following web site: > > http://www.wsws.org Ted, I recommend that you take a deep breath and go look up the meaning of argumentum ad hominem (abusive). Attack the data, not the presenter of the data. It's a nice distraction but doesn't deal with the fact. Does ATR have an agenda? Clearly. Does that mean that they cannot present the information without bias? Even if you don't like the inclusion of the regulations, we can still agree upon the amount of federal and state taxation, can't we? And that's been increasing? Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho ------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C34A0A.232F32D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

> Dale et. al.
>
> To expect the = information on=20 the web site Dale gave from
> Americans For Tax
> Reform to = be=20 accurate, unbiased and comprehensive in it's
> analysis of = the
>=20 whole economic picture regarding income and taxation, is like
> = expecting=20 the
> virtues of capitalism and the evils of taxation to be = presented in=20 an
> unbiased, accurate and comprehensive manner at the following = web=20 site:
>
> http://www.wsws.org

Ted,

I recommend that you = take a deep=20 breath and go look up the meaning of argumentum ad hominem=20 (abusive).  Attack the data, not the presenter of the data. It's a = nice=20 distraction but doesn't deal with the fact.

Does ATR have an agenda? Clearly. = Does that=20 mean that they cannot present the information without bias?

Even if you don't like the = inclusion of=20 the regulations, we can still agree upon the amount of federal and state = taxation, can't we? And that's been increasing?

Best,
Dale Courtney
Moscow,=20 Idaho

------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C34A0A.232F32D0-- From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 21:21:26 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:21:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial Message-ID:

Here’s a link to an article about the Administration’s denials about the uranium lie in the State of the Union address. What would Rush Limbaugh have to say if the President’s name was Bill Clinton?

http://truthout.org/docs_03/071403A.shtml

Sunil Ramalingam




The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Mon Jul 14 21:27:30 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:27:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FC6@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34A46.5955FEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good question, Mr. Ramalimgam. I suppose that if this were a = Democratic administration, we would see a major drive for impeachment in both the = House and the Senate. =20 Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: Sunil Ramalingam [mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 1:21 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial Here's a link to an article about the Administration's denials about = the uranium lie in the State of the Union address. What would Rush Limbaugh = have to say if the President's name was Bill Clinton?=20 http://truthout.org/docs_03/071403A.shtml Sunil Ramalingam _____ =20 The new MSN 8: smart spam = protection and 2 months FREE* = _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the = communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net = mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34A46.5955FEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good=20 question, Mr. Ramalimgam.  I suppose that if this were a = Democratic=20 administration, we would see a major drive for impeachment in both the = House and=20 the Senate.
 
Tom=20 Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: Sunil Ramalingam=20 [mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 14, = 2003=20 1:21 PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: = [Vision2020]=20 uranium denial

Here's a link to an article about the Administration's denials = about the=20 uranium lie in the State of the Union address. What would Rush = Limbaugh have=20 to say if the President's name was Bill Clinton?

http://truthout.org/docs_03/071403A.shtml=

Sunil Ramalingam




The new MSN 8: = smart spam=20 protection and 2 months FREE*=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since=20 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=20
------_=_NextPart_001_01C34A46.5955FEC0-- From ddjames@moscow.com Mon Jul 14 21:32:53 2003 From: ddjames@moscow.com (Deacon James) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:32:53 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial References: Message-ID: <006601c34a47$1a208c60$6a01a8c0@telus> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C34A0C.6DA18230 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There have been a lot of links to truthout.org forwarded to the listserv = recently. However, it is clear that the editors of the site are biased. = Based solely on the fact that their articles have bias, I refuse to read = them and staunchly declare that they are worthless.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Sunil Ramalingam=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 1:21 PM Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial Here's a link to an article about the Administration's denials about = the uranium lie in the State of the Union address. What would Rush = Limbaugh have to say if the President's name was Bill Clinton?=20 http://truthout.org/docs_03/071403A.shtml Sunil Ramalingam -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* = _____________________________________________________ List services made = available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse = since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C34A0C.6DA18230 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There have been a lot of = links to=20 truthout.org forwarded to the listserv recently. However, it is clear = that the=20 editors of the site are biased. Based solely on the fact that their=20 articles have bias, I refuse to read them and staunchly declare = that they=20 are worthless.
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Sunil Ramalingam =
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 = 1:21 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] uranium=20 denial

Here=92s a link to an article about the Administration=92s denials = about the=20 uranium lie in the State of the Union address. What would Rush = Limbaugh have=20 to say if the President=92s name was Bill Clinton?

http://truthout.org/docs_03/071403A.shtml<= /P>

Sunil Ramalingam




The new MSN 8: = smart spam=20 protection and 2 months FREE*=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since=20 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C34A0C.6DA18230-- From thansen@moscow.com Mon Jul 14 22:13:07 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:13:07 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day Message-ID: <200307142040.h6EKeIQU041547@whale2.fsr.net> This is true, Mr. Courtney. Taxes have been increasing. And with an increasing national deficit, those taxes will increase even more. Nothing is free, Mr. Courtney. Programs cost money. The Defense costs money. Wars cost money. You see, Mr. Courtney, my definition is (as I have stated before) "Free only means that somebody else pays for it." Unfortunately that "somebody else" may be our next generation. A tax reduction in the face of an ever increasing deficit borders on absolute stupidity. The money to pay for the programs, Defense, wars, etc. etc. MUST come from somewhere. Unless you have found a money tree, the American people will have to pay the bills. Always willing to pay my share, Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > > Dale et. al. > > > > To expect the information on the web site Dale gave from > > Americans For Tax > > Reform to be accurate, unbiased and comprehensive in it's > > analysis of the > > whole economic picture regarding income and taxation, is like > > expecting the > > virtues of capitalism and the evils of taxation to be presented in an > > unbiased, accurate and comprehensive manner at the following web site: > > > > http://www.wsws.org > > Ted, > > I recommend that you take a deep breath and go look up the meaning of > argumentum ad hominem (abusive). Attack the data, not the presenter of the > data. It's a nice distraction but doesn't deal with the fact. > > Does ATR have an agenda? Clearly. Does that mean that they cannot present > the information without bias? > > Even if you don't like the inclusion of the regulations, we can still agree > upon the amount of federal and state taxation, can't we? And that's been > increasing? > > Best, > Dale Courtney > Moscow, Idaho > > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 21:48:25 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:48:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_620c_cae_382 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Is any one else disgusted by a President that lied to go to war? People died, lots of them, thousands of children were killed, not to mention all of our soldiers. Weapons inspectors were right. Bush lied about that too. No WMD. What the hell did all those people die for? Higher approval ratings for Bush? This makes Lewinsky look like a tic. How can articles of impeachment not be cast against this thing that calls itself president? Donovan J Arnold >From: "Sunil Ramalingam" >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:21:26 -0700 > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------=_NextPart_000_620c_cae_382 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Message-Info: oPbp7me323TWZh+991GmztOiy5NvxeNH Received: from mc3-f36.law16.hotmail.com ([65.54.236.171]) by mc3-s7.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:24:36 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net ([207.141.26.23]) by mc3-f36.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:23:17 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6EKO3QU013281; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:24:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vision2020-admin@moscow.com) Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx6.postini.com [12.158.34.146]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id h6EKN4QU011525 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:23:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sunilramalingam@hotmail.com) Received: from source ([207.141.24.20]) by exprod5mx6.postini.com ([12.158.34.245]) with SMTP; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:21:28 PDT Received: from hotmail.com (law10-f101.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.101]) by fsr.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6EKMRQ71350 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:22:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sunilramalingam@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:21:27 -0700 Received: from 24.117.126.226 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:21:26 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.117.126.226] X-Originating-Email: [sunilramalingam@hotmail.com] From: "Sunil Ramalingam" To: vision2020@moscow.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2003 20:21:27.0725 (UTC) FILETIME=[81321DD0:01C34A45] Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial Sender: vision2020-admin@moscow.com Errors-To: vision2020-admin@moscow.com X-BeenThere: vision2020@moscow.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Moscow/Latah county community discussion list List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:21:26 -0700 Return-Path: vision2020-admin@moscow.com

Here’s a link to an article about the Administration’s denials about the uranium lie in the State of the Union address. What would Rush Limbaugh have to say if the President’s name was Bill Clinton?

http://truthout.org/docs_03/071403A.shtml

Sunil Ramalingam




The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ------=_NextPart_000_620c_cae_382-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 21:55:54 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:55:54 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day Message-ID: Dale, In what exact line did Ted attack you? I think he attacked the crediability of information and how the date was collected and presented. I have never known Ted to make an argument that attacked the person as a basis for his argument. Donovan J Arnold >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:16:29 -0700 > > > Dale et. al. > > > > To expect the information on the web site Dale gave from > > Americans For Tax > > Reform to be accurate, unbiased and comprehensive in it's > > analysis of the > > whole economic picture regarding income and taxation, is like > > expecting the > > virtues of capitalism and the evils of taxation to be presented in an > > unbiased, accurate and comprehensive manner at the following web site: > > > > http://www.wsws.org > >Ted, > >I recommend that you take a deep breath and go look up the meaning of >argumentum ad hominem (abusive). Attack the data, not the presenter of the >data. It's a nice distraction but doesn't deal with the fact. > >Does ATR have an agenda? Clearly. Does that mean that they cannot present >the information without bias? > >Even if you don't like the inclusion of the regulations, we can still agree >upon the amount of federal and state taxation, can't we? And that's been >increasing? > >Best, >Dale Courtney >Moscow, Idaho > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From thansen@moscow.com Mon Jul 14 22:41:29 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:41:29 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial Message-ID: <200307142108.h6EL8eQU090583@whale2.fsr.net> To further illustrate King George's shotfalls, George might assist Liberia with as many as 100 troops, a C130 transport and a couple Apache helicopters as early as next week or so. Here is a country that has no oil, is not powerful, and has nothing major to offer us in return. These simply are people fighting for their livelihoods. Let them eat cake, right George? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > > Is any one else disgusted by a President that lied to go to war? People > died, lots of them, thousands of children were killed, not to mention all of > our soldiers. Weapons inspectors were right. Bush lied about that too. No > WMD. What the hell did all those people die for? Higher approval ratings for > Bush? This makes Lewinsky look like a tic. How can articles of impeachment > not be cast against this thing that calls itself president? > > Donovan J Arnold --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 22:27:25 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:27:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial Message-ID:

The search for truth continues...

>From: "Deacon James"
>To:
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] uranium denial
>Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:32:53 -0700
>
>There have been a lot of links to truthout.org forwarded to the listserv recently. However, it is clear that the editors of the site are biased. Based solely on the fact that their articles have bias, I refuse to read them and staunchly declare that they are worthless.
>
>----- Original Message -----
> From: Sunil Ramalingam
> To: vision2020@moscow.com
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 1:21 PM
> Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial
>
>
> Here's a link to an article about the Administration's denials about the uranium lie in the State of the Union address. What would Rush Limbaugh have to say if the President's name was Bill Clinton?
>
> http://truthout.org/docs_03/071403A.shtml
>
> Sunil Ramalingam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 22:54:44 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:54:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial Message-ID: President Bush said a few days ago that those who criticize his administration on the false Iraq-Africa uranium charge are attempting to "rewrite history." Interesting choice of words. What in the world are Bush and his handlers trying to do? Carl Westberg Jr. >From: Thomas Hansen >To: "'Sunil Ramalingam'" , >vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:27:30 -0700 > >Good question, Mr. Ramalimgam. I suppose that if this were a Democratic >administration, we would see a major drive for impeachment in both the >House >and the Senate. > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > >-----Original Message----- >From: Sunil Ramalingam [mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com] >Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 1:21 PM >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial > > > >Here's a link to an article about the Administration's denials about the >uranium lie in the State of the Union address. What would Rush Limbaugh >have >to say if the President's name was Bill Clinton? > > >http://truthout.org/docs_03/071403A.shtml > >Sunil Ramalingam > > > > > > > _____ > >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection >and 2 months FREE* _____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities >of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From thansen@moscow.com Mon Jul 14 23:40:51 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:40:51 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial Message-ID: <200307142208.h6EM82QU009214@whale2.fsr.net> What I believe George W. is trying to say is (to paraphrase Adolf Hitler) "There is only one truth, my truth." This should lead to some "interesting" postings. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > President Bush said a few days ago that those who criticize his > administration on the false Iraq-Africa uranium charge are attempting to > "rewrite history." Interesting choice of words. What in the world are Bush > and his handlers trying to do? > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > > >From: Thomas Hansen > >To: "'Sunil Ramalingam'" , > >vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial > >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:27:30 -0700 > > > >Good question, Mr. Ramalimgam. I suppose that if this were a Democratic > >administration, we would see a major drive for impeachment in both the > >House > >and the Senate. > > > >Tom Hansen > >Moscow, Idaho > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Sunil Ramalingam [mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com] > >Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 1:21 PM > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial > > > > > > > >Here's a link to an article about the Administration's denials about the > >uranium lie in the State of the Union address. What would Rush Limbaugh > >have > >to say if the President's name was Bill Clinton? > > > > > >http://truthout.org/docs_03/071403A.shtml > > > >Sunil Ramalingam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection > >and 2 months FREE* _____________________________________________________ > >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the > >communities > >of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From rforce@moscow.com Tue Jul 15 00:40:44 2003 From: rforce@moscow.com (Ron Force) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:40:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day In-Reply-To: <200307142040.h6EKeIQU041547@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: Well, no not all taxes have been increasing. Tax receipts will increase as the economy grows, assuming no change in rates. The way to assess this is to look at taxes as a percentage of the gross domestic product. The OECD has a site comparing the GDP percentage of different kinds of taxes, 1965-2002: http://www.ctj.org/pdf/oecd.pdf Summary of ranges and latest value: All income taxes: 24.7 - 29%, 2002- 26.3% Personal Income Taxes: 7.8 - 12.9%, 2002- 11.8% Corporate Income Tax: 1.5-4.1%, 2002- 1.5% Social Insurance: 3.3 -6.9%, 2002- 6.9% Consumption taxes: 4.0 - 4.9%, 2002- 4.1% Property & Wealth Taxes: 2.8 -3.9%, 2002- 3.0% Almost all taxes have declined from their peak as a percentage of the economy, except for Social Security. ******************************************** Ron Force rforce@moscow.com Moscow Idaho USA ******************************************** > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of thansen@moscow.com > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 2:13 PM > To: Dale Courtney; vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day > > > This is true, Mr. Courtney. Taxes have been increasing. > From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 15 00:48:16 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:48:16 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ec01c34a62$65584540$ca01a8c0@home> Ron sends: > Well, no not all taxes have been increasing. Tax receipts > will increase as the economy grows, assuming no change in > rates. The way to assess this is to look at taxes as a > percentage of the gross domestic product. The OECD has a > site comparing the GDP percentage of different kinds of taxes, > 1965-2002: http://www.ctj.org/pdf/oecd.pdf Another liberal think-tank -- not that they would be biased, mind you. The *problem* with comparing taxes with GDP is that includes what the *corporations* make in revenue -- it isn't limited to what the average worker makes. So, corporations could far distance themselves in wealth and the average person wouldn't see any of it (hmmm, sounds like a leftists argument). The comparison, then, for taxes shouldn't be against the GDP (though that tells one side of the story), but against what the average citizen pays (not what the corporations pay). I'm surprised that CTJ would make such a blunder. Good try, though. Best, Dale From timlohr@yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 01:43:47 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? In-Reply-To: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FC6@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <20030715004347.35387.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, Tom makes an interesting point. Why DOESN'T the Democrat party launch and impeachment effort if they think it's warranted? When Clinton committed perjury by lying under oath (in a suit alleging what one would think would be a Democrat sacred cow--sexual harassment,) the GOP did so. And love'em or hate'em they did so at quite a lot of personal political risk to themselves. Witness the fact that the Demos gained ground in the next mid-term elections when they controlled the White House--an occurence that had rarely happened before then. So the question is, why DON'T the Demos ask for impeachment? I would diagnose a severe case of yellow-bellied political gutlessness. In other words they're too afraid. Afraid that if they do so and don't, or only partially succeed, it will backfire on them in the next elections due to popular resentment. A pretty fair fear to have too. I mean it happened before right? TL --- Thomas Hansen wrote: > Good question, Mr. Ramalimgam. I suppose that if > this were a Democratic > administration, we would see a major drive for > impeachment in both the House > and the Senate. > > Tom Hansen > Moscow, Idaho > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sunil Ramalingam > [mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 1:21 PM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial > > > > Here's a link to an article about the > Administration's denials about the > uranium lie in the State of the Union address. What > would Rush Limbaugh have > to say if the President's name was Bill Clinton? > > > http://truthout.org/docs_03/071403A.shtml > > Sunil Ramalingam > > > > > > > _____ > > The new MSN 8: > smart spam protection > and 2 months FREE* > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities > of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 15 01:54:34 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:54:34 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? In-Reply-To: <20030715004347.35387.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ed01c34a6b$a88f8540$ca01a8c0@home> Tim wrote: > Why DOESN'T the Democrat party launch and > impeachment effort if they think it's warranted? Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet for allowing the uranium claim to be believed by the President? Or do they impeach the President for trusting the information coming from the CIA? Confused, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From timlohr@yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 02:14:30 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? In-Reply-To: <00ed01c34a6b$a88f8540$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: <20030715011430.33185.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Dale, I personally don't have a dog in that fight. I was mainly just making the point that the Demos these guys have been praising on here don't make any decisions on principle. Just like their hero Clinton, the modern Demo leadership takes a poll before they pick their tie in the morning.(I bet they literally do on that one--you know, what color projects "strength" and etc.) It's ALL the political bottom line and nothing else Impeach or not impeach? I don't think it makes a whole heckuva lot of difference if we have Bush or if he were impeached, Cheney. And if Cheney died--who then? Dennis Hastert? (I need to brush on the line of succession don't I?) (Although now that I think about it maybe if Bush WERE impeached it might conceivably lead to the breakup of the GOP. That would be a positive. We DO need to do away with the two party system and that'll probably take one or both of the two majors breaking up. I don't really care which one goes first.) TL --- Dale Courtney wrote: > Tim wrote: > > Why DOESN'T the Democrat party launch and > > impeachment effort if they think it's warranted? > > Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet for > allowing the uranium claim > to be believed by the President? > > Or do they impeach the President for trusting the > information coming from > the CIA? > > Confused, > Dale Courtney > Moscow, Idaho > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jul 15 02:18:58 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:18:58 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? In-Reply-To: <00ed01c34a6b$a88f8540$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: Mr. Courtney - If there is anything I learned during my 20 years in the Army, it is that you can delegate authority NOT responsibility. When a presidential appointee fouls up that reflects on the president. The bottom line is that the president has compromised the trust that the American people have placed in him. It is that simple. Tom Hansen Moscow > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Dale Courtney > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 5:55 PM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? > > > Tim wrote: > > Why DOESN'T the Democrat party launch and > > impeachment effort if they think it's warranted? > > Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet for allowing the > uranium claim > to be believed by the President? > > Or do they impeach the President for trusting the information coming from > the CIA? > > Confused, > Dale Courtney > Moscow, Idaho > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 15 02:37:18 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:37:18 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? In-Reply-To: <20030715011430.33185.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ee01c34a71$a10f9a20$ca01a8c0@home> Tim wrote: > I personally don't have a dog in that fight. Me neither. As far as I'm concerned, the Republicans are just as rotten as the Dem's -- they each have their less-rotten points (well, principally they do...). > (Although now that I think about it maybe if Bush > WERE impeached it might conceivably lead to the > breakup of the GOP. That would be a positive. We DO > need to do away with the two party system and that'll > probably take one or both of the two majors breaking > up. I don't really care which one goes first.) A three party system would be fine with me -- as long as the Libertarians come out on top! :) Best, Dale From curley@turbonet.com Tue Jul 15 02:04:06 2003 From: curley@turbonet.com (Mike Curley) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:04:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? In-Reply-To: <20030715004347.35387.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> References: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FC6@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <200307150143.h6F1htu9054043@mx.fsr.net> Perhaps there is an issue about who controls Congress and, thus, how much control the impeachment-oriented have. Let's not get all dewy-eyed about either party being on the ethical high ground, at the national level especially, and even more particularly when it comes to impeachment. On 14 Jul 03, at 17:43, Tim Lohrmann wrote: From: Tim Lohrmann Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? To: Thomas Hansen Copies to: vision2020@moscow.com Date sent: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:43:47 -0700 (PDT) > Visionaries, > Tom makes an interesting point. > Why DOESN'T the Democrat party launch and > impeachment effort if they think it's warranted? > When Clinton committed perjury by lying under oath > (in a suit alleging what one would think would be a > Democrat sacred cow--sexual harassment,) the GOP did > so. And love'em or hate'em they did so at quite a lot > of personal political risk to themselves. Witness the > fact that the Demos gained ground in the next mid-term > elections when they controlled the White House--an > occurence that had rarely happened before then. > So the question is, why DON'T the Demos ask for > impeachment? > I would diagnose a severe case of yellow-bellied > political gutlessness. > In other words they're too afraid. Afraid that if > they do so and don't, or only partially succeed, it > will backfire on them in the next elections due to > popular resentment. A pretty fair fear to have too. I > mean it happened before right? > TL > > > --- Thomas Hansen wrote: > > Good question, Mr. Ramalimgam. I suppose that if > > this were a Democratic > > administration, we would see a major drive for > > impeachment in both the House > > and the Senate. > > > > Tom Hansen > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sunil Ramalingam > > [mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com] > > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 1:21 PM > > To: vision2020@moscow.com > > Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial > > > > > > > > Here's a link to an article about the > > Administration's denials about the > > uranium lie in the State of the Union address. What > > would Rush Limbaugh have > > to say if the President's name was Bill Clinton? > > > > > > http://truthout.org/docs_03/071403A.shtml > > > > Sunil Ramalingam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > The new MSN 8: > > smart spam protection > > and 2 months FREE* > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities > > of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > http://search.yahoo.com > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 02:43:16 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:43:16 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? Message-ID:

Tim,

You're a little too generous to the Republicans who impeached Clinton.  They didn't do it out of courage of selflesness; they did it because they thought they had enough votes to succeed, and they thought the public would rally around them.  I doubt they believed they were taking any risks.  They turned out to be wrong.  But let's not confuse vote-counting and a calculated gamble with courage.

The Democrats won't try to impeach Bush now because they don't have the votes.  The only way that's going to happen now is if Republicans join in.  Since right now their leadership is working on restricting investigations, it's not likely they will get on an impeachment bandwagon.  Maybe if more facts come out, but the White House is clearly counting on public apathy on this, just as they are with the continuing deaths in Iraq.

Don't think I'm saying the Dems haven't been cowards on this issue.  Of course they have, huge herds of them, and I'll remember who voted for the October resolution when the primary rolls around. 

Dale, surely you are employing irony when you write of Tenet "allowing the uranium claim to be believed by the President."  You're not really saying it happened that way, are you?  Not when in October 2002 Tenet tells the White House not to use it in a speech, and then in January '03 it shows up again.  You're not really saying someone in the White House forgot that it was false in three months, are you?

Please. 

Look at the official reactions now.  Rumsfeld and Rice come out and basically say, "Well, the statement was factually true, since the British were making the claim, and that's what the President said in his speech."  It's pretty clear that the White House wanted to make the claim that Hussein was trying to buy uranium from an African state, and they couldn't say that the CIA had learned this, so they found a different way to say it.  They must have forgotten that the CIA was telling the British that the story was no good, and they shouldn't use it.  Maybe in the week between the State of the Union speech and Colin Powell's Feb. 5 speech at the U.N. they learned the truth.  Oh, wait, Rice says she didn't know until when, last month?  How did Powell know to keep that one out of his speech if the CIA was hiding this info?

If there's something that should be pretty obvious by now, it's that the Project for the New American Century folks that are running our foreign, I'm sorry, military policy, don't want to pay attention to news that they don't like.  They wanted this war going back to at least '98, and they weren't about to let a few facts get in the way.

Sunil Ramalingam
 


The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 15 02:58:31 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:58:31 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00f301c34a74$988b65c0$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F4_01C34A39.EC2C8DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sunil, =20 I don't have enough information to make a judgment about who knew what = when -- especially when the story changes every day. I thought Bush might = bite it until Tenet came out admitting that it was his agency that was = responsible for the uranium claim in the Address. And now Bush is on the side of defending his Intelligence Team (see http://www.msnbc.com/news/937524.asp?0ct=3D-354).=20 =20 Let's let it shake out and see what the lawyers figure out -- they = always get to the truth, don't 'cha know... =20 Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of Sunil Ramalingam Sent: Monday, 14 July, 2003 18:43 To: timlohr@yahoo.com; tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Cc: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? Tim, You're a little too generous to the Republicans who impeached Clinton. = They didn't do it out of courage of selflesness; they did it because they = thought they had enough votes to succeed, and they thought the public would = rally around them. I doubt they believed they were taking any risks. They = turned out to be wrong. But let's not confuse vote-counting and a calculated gamble with courage. The Democrats won't try to impeach Bush now because they don't have the votes. The only way that's going to happen now is if Republicans join = in. Since right now their leadership is working on restricting = investigations, it's not likely they will get on an impeachment bandwagon. Maybe if = more facts come out, but the White House is clearly counting on public apathy = on this, just as they are with the continuing deaths in Iraq. Don't think I'm saying the Dems haven't been cowards on this issue. Of course they have, huge herds of them, and I'll remember who voted for = the October resolution when the primary rolls around. =20 Dale, surely you are employing irony when you write of Tenet "allowing = the uranium claim to be believed by the President." You're not really = saying it happened that way, are you? Not when in October 2002 Tenet tells the = White House not to use it in a speech, and then in January '03 it shows up = again. You're not really saying someone in the White House forgot that it was = false in three months, are you? Please. =20 Look at the official reactions now. Rumsfeld and Rice come out and basically say, "Well, the statement was factually true, since the = British were making the claim, and that's what the President said in his = speech." It's pretty clear that the White House wanted to make the claim that = Hussein was trying to buy uranium from an African state, and they couldn't say = that the CIA had learned this, so they found a different way to say it. They must have forgotten that the CIA was telling the British that the story = was no good, and they shouldn't use it. Maybe in the week between the State = of the Union speech and Colin Powell's Feb. 5 speech at the U.N. they = learned the truth. Oh, wait, Rice says she didn't know until when, last month? = How did Powell know to keep that one out of his speech if the CIA was hiding this info? If there's something that should be pretty obvious by now, it's that the Project for the New American Century folks that are running our foreign, = I'm sorry, military policy, don't want to pay attention to news that they = don't like. They wanted this war going back to at least '98, and they weren't about to let a few facts get in the way. Sunil Ramalingam =20 _____ =20 The new MSN 8: smart spam = protection and 2 months FREE* _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the = communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net = mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00F4_01C34A39.EC2C8DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Sunil,
 
I=20 don't have enough information to make a judgment about who knew what = when --=20 especially when the story changes every day. I thought Bush might bite = it until=20 Tenet came out admitting that it was his agency that was responsible for = the=20 uranium claim in the Address. And now Bush is on the side of defending = his=20 Intelligence Team (see http://www.msnbc.com/news/937524.asp?0ct=3D-354).=20
 
Let's=20 let it shake out and see what the lawyers figure out -- they always get = to the=20 truth, don't 'cha know...
 
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On = Behalf=20 Of Sunil Ramalingam
Sent: Monday, 14 July, 2003=20 18:43
To: timlohr@yahoo.com; = tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu
Cc:=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium=20 denial--GUTLESS DEMOS?

Tim,

You're a little too generous to the Republicans who impeached=20 Clinton.  They didn't do it out of courage of selflesness; they = did it=20 because they thought they had enough votes to succeed, and they = thought the=20 public would rally around them.  I doubt they believed they were = taking=20 any risks.  They turned out to be wrong.  But let's not = confuse=20 vote-counting and a calculated gamble with courage.

The Democrats won't try to impeach Bush now because they don't have = the=20 votes.  The only way that's going to happen now is if Republicans = join=20 in.  Since right now their leadership is working on restricting=20 investigations, it's not likely they will get on an impeachment=20 bandwagon.  Maybe if more facts come out, but the White House is = clearly=20 counting on public apathy on this, just as they are with the = continuing deaths=20 in Iraq.

Don't think I'm saying the Dems haven't been cowards on this = issue. =20 Of course they have, huge herds of them, and I'll remember who voted = for the=20 October resolution when the primary rolls around. 

Dale, surely you are employing irony when you write of Tenet = "allowing the=20 uranium claim to be believed by the President."  You're not = really saying=20 it happened that way, are you?  Not when in October 2002 Tenet = tells the=20 White House not to use it in a speech, and then in January '03 it = shows up=20 again.  You're not really saying someone in the White House = forgot that=20 it was false in three months, are you?

Please. 

Look at the official reactions now.  Rumsfeld and Rice come = out and=20 basically say, "Well, the statement was factually true, since the = British were=20 making the claim, and that's what the President said in his = speech." =20 It's pretty clear that the White House wanted to make the claim that = Hussein=20 was trying to buy uranium from an African state, and they couldn't say = that=20 the CIA had learned this, so they found a different way to say = it.  They=20 must have forgotten that the CIA was telling the British that the = story was no=20 good, and they shouldn't use it.  Maybe in the week between the = State of=20 the Union speech and Colin Powell's Feb. 5 speech at the U.N. they = learned the=20 truth.  Oh, wait, Rice says she didn't know until when, last = month? =20 How did Powell know to keep that one out of his speech if the CIA was = hiding=20 this info?

If there's something that should be pretty obvious by now, it's = that the=20 Project for the New American Century folks that are running our = foreign, I'm=20 sorry, military policy, don't want to pay attention to news that they = don't=20 like.  They wanted this war going back to at least '98, and they = weren't=20 about to let a few facts get in the way.

Sunil Ramalingam
 


The new MSN 8: = smart spam=20 protection and 2 months FREE*=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since=20 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00F4_01C34A39.EC2C8DC0-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 03:16:08 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 02:16:08 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day Message-ID: Dale et. al. This is really funny. You need to read more carefully. Notice that I did not say it was impossible for ATR to present their case with no bias. I said that to expect them to do so on taxes and income is like expecting the World Socialist Web Site to also do so on capitalism and taxes. So if it is possible for the WSWS to be unbiased, then indeed it is also possible for ATR. Bias is a reality, Mr. Courtney, and to point out that an organization has a bias is to acknowledge reality. The case as to whether or not they can present the facts without bias perhaps reflects a bias of yours, no personal attack meant. I do have biases on many issues that color my arguments and fact gathering orientation. So are you going to claim no bias, Dale? I asked YOU, the person who presented the facts from ATR at first on V2020, to back up these facts with references and to answer some important questions about the data. You did not answer my questions that clearly exposed how misleading some of the info was you posted from ATR on the number of days an "average" worker must work to pay their taxes. Instead I get this condescending nonsense about looking up a phrase I learned the meaning of 35 years ago. Time to think outside the box, Mr. Courtney. Your bias and agenda is limiting the options you will consider to explain reality. You refuse to answer important questions that reflect on the logic and facts of your case in this matter, just as you did with the public vs. private school debate. Yours in argument ad hominem, Ted >From: thansen@moscow.com >To: "Dale Courtney" , >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:13:07 GMT > >This is true, Mr. Courtney. Taxes have been increasing. And with an >increasing national deficit, those taxes will increase even more. Nothing >is >free, Mr. Courtney. Programs cost money. The Defense costs money. Wars >cost >money. > >You see, Mr. Courtney, my definition is (as I have stated before) "Free >only >means that somebody else pays for it." Unfortunately that "somebody else" >may >be our next generation. > >A tax reduction in the face of an ever increasing deficit borders on >absolute >stupidity. The money to pay for the programs, Defense, wars, etc. etc. >MUST >come from somewhere. > >Unless you have found a money tree, the American people will have to pay >the >bills. > >Always willing to pay my share, > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > > > > Dale et. al. > > > > > > To expect the information on the web site Dale gave from > > > Americans For Tax > > > Reform to be accurate, unbiased and comprehensive in it's > > > analysis of the > > > whole economic picture regarding income and taxation, is like > > > expecting the > > > virtues of capitalism and the evils of taxation to be presented in an > > > unbiased, accurate and comprehensive manner at the following web site: > > > > > > http://www.wsws.org > > > > Ted, > > > > I recommend that you take a deep breath and go look up the meaning of > > argumentum ad hominem (abusive). Attack the data, not the presenter of >the > > data. It's a nice distraction but doesn't deal with the fact. > > > > Does ATR have an agenda? Clearly. Does that mean that they cannot >present > > the information without bias? > > > > Even if you don't like the inclusion of the regulations, we can still >agree > > upon the amount of federal and state taxation, can't we? And that's been > > increasing? > > > > Best, > > Dale Courtney > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------- >This message was sent by First Step Internet. > http://www.fsr.net/ > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 03:55:23 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Why Not Bill London's Lawn or The Steps of Zume As A Public Bathroom? Message-ID: <20030715025523.42318.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> --0-379066793-1058237723=:42309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Why Not Bill London's Lawn or The Steps of Zume As A Public Bathroom? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-379066793-1058237723=:42309 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Why Not Bill London's Lawn or The Steps of Zume As A Public Bathroom?

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-379066793-1058237723=:42309-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 06:08:27 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 05:08:27 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_55d2_1840_3ae5 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed All: The Truth Shall Set Ye Free! Link below to commentary on US Intelligence and Uranium Deception etc. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4107.htm Ted >From: "Sunil Ramalingam" >To: ddjames@moscow.com, vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] uranium denial >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:27:25 -0700 > _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------=_NextPart_000_55d2_1840_3ae5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Message-Info: oPbp7me323TWZh+991GmztOiy5NvxeNH Received: from mc7-f39.law1.hotmail.com ([65.54.253.46]) by mc7-s1.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:33:06 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net ([207.141.26.23]) by mc7-f39.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:32:56 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6ELU4QU028346; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:30:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vision2020-admin@moscow.com) Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx3.postini.com [12.158.34.143]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id h6ELT4QU026407; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:29:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sunilramalingam@hotmail.com) Received: from source ([207.141.24.20]) by exprod5mx3.postini.com ([12.158.34.245]) with SMTP; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:27:26 PDT Received: from hotmail.com (law10-f38.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.38]) by fsr.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6ELSQQ97122; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:28:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sunilramalingam@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:27:25 -0700 Received: from 24.117.126.226 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:27:25 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.117.126.226] X-Originating-Email: [sunilramalingam@hotmail.com] From: "Sunil Ramalingam" To: ddjames@moscow.com, vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] uranium denial Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2003 21:27:25.0932 (UTC) FILETIME=[B87892C0:01C34A4E] Sender: vision2020-admin@moscow.com Errors-To: vision2020-admin@moscow.com X-BeenThere: vision2020@moscow.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Moscow/Latah county community discussion list List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:27:25 -0700 Return-Path: vision2020-admin@moscow.com

The search for truth continues...

>From: "Deacon James"
>To:
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] uranium denial
>Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:32:53 -0700
>
>There have been a lot of links to truthout.org forwarded to the listserv recently. However, it is clear that the editors of the site are biased. Based solely on the fact that their articles have bias, I refuse to read them and staunchly declare that they are worthless.
>
>----- Original Message -----
> From: Sunil Ramalingam
> To: vision2020@moscow.com
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 1:21 PM
> Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial
>
>
> Here's a link to an article about the Administration's denials about the uranium lie in the State of the Union address. What would Rush Limbaugh have to say if the President's name was Bill Clinton?
>
> http://truthout.org/docs_03/071403A.shtml
>
> Sunil Ramalingam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ------=_NextPart_000_55d2_1840_3ae5-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 06:16:49 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:16:49 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? Message-ID: Dale wrote: "Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet for allowing the uranium claim to be believed by the President? Or do they impeach the President for trusting the information coming from the CIA?" Dale, first, nobody on the planet except you believes that Tenet is really responsible. Second, Tenet did not provide the information alone, the British, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell did. Third, if the president can't even ask a question like "Which African Country?" should he also have control of nuclear weapons? Fourth, if Bush is not responsible for the words coming out of his mouth, who is? Fifth, why didn't the Republicans impeach Lewinsky, it was her that did the act, not Clinton. Finally, if Bush is not responsible for what comes out of his mouth, how can we trust him, they might have been put there by someone else that lied? Donovan J Arnold >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:54:34 -0700 > >Tim wrote: > > Why DOESN'T the Democrat party launch and > > impeachment effort if they think it's warranted? > >Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet for allowing the uranium claim >to be believed by the President? > >Or do they impeach the President for trusting the information coming from >the CIA? > >Confused, >Dale Courtney >Moscow, Idaho > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From timlohr@yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 06:53:10 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030715055310.71566.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Donovan, You wrote: "Fifth, why didn't the Republicans impeach Lewinsky, it was her that did the act, not Clinton."  Actually what you imply here, that the impeachment was just about Lewinsky is incorrect.  The two adopted articles of impeachment read as follows:    1st Article.The president provided perjurious, false and misleading testimony to the grand jury regarding the Paula Jones case and his relationship with Monica Lewinsky. 2nd Article. NOT ADOPTED 3rd Article. The president obstructed justice in an effort to delay, impede, cover up and conceal the existence of evidence related to the Jones case. While we're discussing it, can you imagine the reaction of the supposedly feminist-minded Democrat party if a GOP pres. had perjured himself concerning of all things A SEXUAL HARASSMENT LAWSUIT in which he himself was the defendant? I can hear it now. Oooooh the nerve of that sexist lout. Ahhhh...the chutzpah of that chauvinist!! Let's maul that malicious misogynist!QQ BUT, when it was one of their own we heard barely a peep of criticism against this fellow who has often behaved as if women are little more than chattel for his private pleasure. And not only that, committed the crime of perjury when he got caught. NO, all we got from these pillars of profound feminist virtue was James Carville's classist comment about Paula Jones being "trailer trash," and cries of "let's move on." Gee, I thought feminists considered sexual harassment serious business that should be fully investigated and litigated so that the rights of women, especially women in subordinate employment positions, could be protected. Well they do, as long as one of their buddies necks isn't on the line. Oh, and it would help if the alleged victim of this harassment is an elite Ivy League type--one of them. If she's not terribly refined, not too wealthy, and doesn't have many connections when the alleged harassment took place, well, that's not a big deal. Just sweep it under the rug, lie about it, or "MOVE ON," right?   TL --- Donovan Arnold wrote: > > Dale wrote: > "Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet for > allowing the uranium claim > to be believed by the President? Or do they impeach > the President for > trusting the information coming from the CIA?" > > Dale, first, nobody on the planet except you > believes that Tenet is really > responsible. > Second, Tenet did not provide the information alone, > the British, Cheney, > Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell did. > Third, if the president can't even ask a question > like "Which African > Country?" should he also have control of nuclear > weapons? > Fourth, if Bush is not responsible for the words > coming out of his mouth, > who is? > Fifth, why didn't the Republicans impeach Lewinsky, > it was her that did the > act, not Clinton. > Finally, if Bush is not responsible for what comes > out of his mouth, how can > we trust him, they might have been put there by > someone else that lied? > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > >From: "Dale Courtney" > >To: > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS > DEMOS? > >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:54:34 -0700 > > > >Tim wrote: > > > Why DOESN'T the Democrat party launch and > > > impeachment effort if they think it's warranted? > > > >Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet for > allowing the uranium claim > >to be believed by the President? > > > >Or do they impeach the President for trusting the > information coming from > >the CIA? > > > >Confused, > >Dale Courtney > >Moscow, Idaho > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months > FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 07:47:53 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:47:53 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? Message-ID: Tim, First, ever hear of the fifth amendment? Why wasn't that brought up? Second, There is a big difference between someone lying about getting blown and someone lying and 6,000 people getting blown up. If you don't understand the difference between the two, then I don't know how else to explain it to you. I believe that Clinton did lie. I think he lied under oath. I think what he did was wrong and unethical. I also think that asking somebody about sexual relationships with someone when they are under oath is more unethical unless it is a murder trial establishing a motive. How many of 50%+ of married men would lie about an affair. That is why nobody cared. And it is not an impeachable offense. Spending $23 million to investigate a president for the sake of trying to find something is ludicrous and unethical when people are starving. To answer your other question the order of succession is: Vice President Speaker of the House Senate Pro-tempore Secretary of State Secretary of Defense Attorney General Secretary of Treasury Secretary of Interior Secretary of Agriculture Secretary of Commerce Secretary of Labor Secretary of HHS Secretary of HUD Secretary of Transportation Secretary of Energy Secretary of Education Secretary of Veterans' Affairs Sectary of Homeland Security After this, Martial Law is declared and the highest ranking military official takes control. Donovan J Arnold >From: Tim Lohrmann >To: Donovan Arnold >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:53:10 -0700 (PDT) > >Donovan, >You wrote: > >"Fifth, why didn't the Republicans impeach Lewinsky, >it was her that did the >act, not Clinton."  > >Actually what you imply here, that the impeachment was >just about Lewinsky is incorrect.  > >The two adopted articles of impeachment read as >follows:  >  >1st Article.The president provided perjurious, false >and misleading testimony to the grand jury regarding >the Paula Jones case and his relationship with Monica >Lewinsky. > >2nd Article. NOT ADOPTED > >3rd Article. The president obstructed justice in an >effort to delay, impede, cover up and conceal the >existence of evidence related to the Jones case. > > >While we're discussing it, can you imagine the >reaction of the supposedly feminist-minded Democrat >party if a GOP pres. had perjured himself concerning >of all things A SEXUAL HARASSMENT LAWSUIT in which he >himself was the defendant? > >I can hear it now. >Oooooh the nerve of that sexist lout. Ahhhh...the >chutzpah of that chauvinist!! Let's maul that >malicious misogynist!QQ > >BUT, when it was one of their own we heard barely a >peep of criticism against this fellow who has often >behaved as if women are little more than chattel for >his private pleasure. And not only that, committed the >crime of perjury when he got caught. > > NO, all we got from these pillars of profound >feminist virtue was James Carville's classist comment >about Paula Jones being "trailer trash," and cries of >"let's move on." > > Gee, I thought feminists considered sexual >harassment serious business that should be fully >investigated and litigated so that the rights of >women, especially women in subordinate employment >positions, could be protected. > > Well they do, as long as one of their buddies necks >isn't on the line. Oh, and it would help if the >alleged victim of this harassment is an elite Ivy >League type--one of them. If she's not terribly >refined, not too wealthy, and doesn't have many >connections when the alleged harassment took place, >well, that's not a big deal. > Just sweep it under the rug, lie about it, or "MOVE >ON," right? >  TL > >--- Donovan Arnold wrote: > > > > Dale wrote: > > "Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet for > > allowing the uranium claim > > to be believed by the President? Or do they impeach > > the President for > > trusting the information coming from the CIA?" > > > > Dale, first, nobody on the planet except you > > believes that Tenet is really > > responsible. > > Second, Tenet did not provide the information alone, > > > the British, Cheney, > > Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell did. > > Third, if the president can't even ask a question > > like "Which African > > Country?" should he also have control of nuclear > > weapons? > > Fourth, if Bush is not responsible for the words > > coming out of his mouth, > > who is? > > Fifth, why didn't the Republicans impeach Lewinsky, > > it was her that did the > > act, not Clinton. > > Finally, if Bush is not responsible for what comes > > out of his mouth, how can > > we trust him, they might have been put there by > > someone else that lied? > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > > > >From: "Dale Courtney" > > >To: > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS > > DEMOS? > > >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:54:34 -0700 > > > > > >Tim wrote: > > > > Why DOESN'T the Democrat party launch and > > > > impeachment effort if they think it's warranted? > > > > > > >Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet for > > allowing the uranium claim > > >to be believed by the President? > > > > > >Or do they impeach the President for trusting the > > information coming from > > >the CIA? > > > > > >Confused, > > >Dale Courtney > > >Moscow, Idaho > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > > List services made available by First Step > > Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > 1994. > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months > > > FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step > > Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >http://sbc.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 15:26:17 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:26:17 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? Message-ID: Regarding the assigning of blame, as Daniel Schorr said yesterday on NPR, John F. Kennedy refused to blame the CIA for the Bay of Pigs, he instead took the blame himself. In a similar situation, Dwight Eisenhower was urged to blame the CIA for something that went badly (the details of which escape me, maybe someone else knows) but he also refused, saying it would be wrong to blame a subordinate. These two examples seem to point to a huge difference between the Eisenhower and Kennedy presidencies and George W. Bush. Perhaps the training wheel is coming off of Dubya's bicycle? Carl Westberg Jr. >From: "Donovan Arnold" >To: dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:16:49 -0700 > > >Dale wrote: >"Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet for allowing the uranium >claim >to be believed by the President? Or do they impeach the President for >trusting the information coming from the CIA?" > >Dale, first, nobody on the planet except you believes that Tenet is really >responsible. >Second, Tenet did not provide the information alone, the British, Cheney, >Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell did. >Third, if the president can't even ask a question like "Which African >Country?" should he also have control of nuclear weapons? >Fourth, if Bush is not responsible for the words coming out of his mouth, >who is? >Fifth, why didn't the Republicans impeach Lewinsky, it was her that did the >act, not Clinton. >Finally, if Bush is not responsible for what comes out of his mouth, how >can we trust him, they might have been put there by someone else that lied? > >Donovan J Arnold > > > >>From: "Dale Courtney" >>To: >>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? >>Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:54:34 -0700 >> >>Tim wrote: >> > Why DOESN'T the Democrat party launch and >> > impeachment effort if they think it's warranted? >> >>Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet for allowing the uranium >>claim >>to be believed by the President? >> >>Or do they impeach the President for trusting the information coming from >>the CIA? >> >>Confused, >>Dale Courtney >>Moscow, Idaho >> >>_____________________________________________________ >> List services made available by First Step Internet, >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Tue Jul 15 15:32:19 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:32:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FC8@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> I agree 100%, Mr. Westberg. The mark of a true leader is his/her willingness to assume responsibility. I don't see that here. Maybe in the Navy? Maybe not? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: Carl Westberg [mailto:carlwestberg846@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 7:26 AM To: donovanarnold@hotmail.com; dale@courtneys.us; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? Regarding the assigning of blame, as Daniel Schorr said yesterday on NPR, John F. Kennedy refused to blame the CIA for the Bay of Pigs, he instead took the blame himself. In a similar situation, Dwight Eisenhower was urged to blame the CIA for something that went badly (the details of which escape me, maybe someone else knows) but he also refused, saying it would be wrong to blame a subordinate. These two examples seem to point to a huge difference between the Eisenhower and Kennedy presidencies and George W. Bush. Perhaps the training wheel is coming off of Dubya's bicycle? Carl Westberg Jr. >From: "Donovan Arnold" >To: dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:16:49 -0700 > > >Dale wrote: >"Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet for allowing the uranium >claim >to be believed by the President? Or do they impeach the President for >trusting the information coming from the CIA?" > >Dale, first, nobody on the planet except you believes that Tenet is really >responsible. >Second, Tenet did not provide the information alone, the British, Cheney, >Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell did. >Third, if the president can't even ask a question like "Which African >Country?" should he also have control of nuclear weapons? >Fourth, if Bush is not responsible for the words coming out of his mouth, >who is? >Fifth, why didn't the Republicans impeach Lewinsky, it was her that did the >act, not Clinton. >Finally, if Bush is not responsible for what comes out of his mouth, how >can we trust him, they might have been put there by someone else that lied? > >Donovan J Arnold > > > >>From: "Dale Courtney" >>To: >>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? >>Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:54:34 -0700 >> >>Tim wrote: >> > Why DOESN'T the Democrat party launch and >> > impeachment effort if they think it's warranted? >> >>Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet for allowing the uranium >>claim >>to be believed by the President? >> >>Or do they impeach the President for trusting the information coming from >>the CIA? >> >>Confused, >>Dale Courtney >>Moscow, Idaho >> >>_____________________________________________________ >> List services made available by First Step Internet, >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 15 15:34:30 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:34:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <013d01c34ade$337c38c0$ca01a8c0@home> Carl writes: > Regarding the assigning of blame, as Daniel Schorr said > yesterday on NPR, > John F. Kennedy refused to blame the CIA for the Bay of Pigs, > he instead > took the blame himself. In a similar situation, Dwight > Eisenhower was urged > to blame the CIA for something that went badly (the details > of which escape > me, maybe someone else knows) but he also refused, saying it > would be wrong > to blame a subordinate. These two examples seem to point to a huge > difference between the Eisenhower and Kennedy presidencies > and George W. > Bush. Perhaps the training wheel is coming off of Dubya's bicycle? Carl, This is a great observation! However, don't just limit it to Bush #2. Please include Clinton and Bush #1 in that list, however. One thing we learn in the military is to accept responsibility for our actions -- and those who work for us. That was also the ethic of the previous generation (JFK, etc). They understood what it meant to lead and be ultimately responsible. There has been a continual erosion of the willingness of our leaders to take responsibility for their actions -- always seeking to blame others. Funny, they seem to be reflecting our culture in general -- wanting to avoid responsibility for their actions (sticking hot coffee in the lap; eating too much junk food; smoking cigarettes; etc). They want all the benefits of a free society but none of the responsibilities that accompany it. Best, Dale From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jul 15 16:27:20 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:27:20 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? Message-ID: <200307151454.h6FEsSQU002698@whale2.fsr.net> "Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet for allowing the uranium claim to be believed by the President? Or do they impeach the President for trusting the information coming from the CIA?" - Dale Courtney (July 14, 2003) "One thing we learn in the military is to accept responsibility for our actions -- and those who work for us. That was also the ethic of the previous generation (JFK, etc). They understood what it meant to lead and be ultimately responsible." - Dale Courtney (July 15, 2003) Hmmmm. Interesting. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From jessical@sub.uidaho.edu Tue Jul 15 17:35:55 2003 From: jessical@sub.uidaho.edu (Jessica Lipschultz) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:35:55 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Tonight's Community Potluck Message-ID: <9ED40ACAD972CB40AF23181E18795996D297C4@fox.sub.uidaho.edu> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34AEF.2A0EE33F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello! Step out from behind your computer and meet your neighbors at tonight's community potluck! Join us from 6:00 to 8:00pm at East City Park. Soda, juice, and shish kabobs will be provided. Please feel free to bring a dish to share. =20 =20 I hope to see you this evening! =20 Sincerely, Jessica =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34AEF.2A0EE33F Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello!  Step out from behind your computer and = meet your neighbors at tonight’s community potluck!  Join us from = 6:00 to 8:00pm at East City Park.  Soda, juice, and shish kabobs will be provided.  Please feel free to = bring a dish to share. 

 

I hope to see you this evening!

 

Sincerely,

Jessica

 

 

 

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34AEF.2A0EE33F-- From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Tue Jul 15 17:57:00 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 12:57:00 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Wee Wee Room Message-ID: --part1_b6.1fe02721.2c458c5c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since Farmers Market only functions half of the year a portable rent-a-potty would be the answer. Like on construction sites. Phil --part1_b6.1fe02721.2c458c5c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since Farmers Market only functions half of the year a= portable rent-a-potty would be the answer. Like on construction sites.

Phil --part1_b6.1fe02721.2c458c5c_boundary-- From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 18:01:19 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:01:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] sexual harassment Message-ID:

Tim,

If there was any merit to the Jones sexual harassment case, there would have been a line of plaintiff's attorneys ready to take it.  Because she had no damages, because she was not threatened with job loss or job-related penalties if she didn't accede to Clinton's wishes (assuming arguendo that her allegations were true), there was no case.  That's why it was funded by a private group that was willing to put time into an otherwise worthless case.

If the allegations are true, then Clinton was remarkably crass.  What would my reaction be to a Republican (or Democrat) charged with the same thing?  Much the same as it was in this case, unless the party charged had been a hypocrites who condemned Clinton for his alleged actions.

If there's a lesson here, it's that Clinton should have admitted the Lewinsky affair at the beginning; he would have been a lot better off.  It's the lying afterwards that sinks you.  This is not a lesson the present Administration wants to learn.

Sunil


The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 15 18:30:58 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:30:58 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] More questioning about the President's Speech Message-ID: <019f01c34af6$db095ce0$ca01a8c0@home> The issue of the aluminum tubes and its place in the President's speech is also being questioned. The 16 words in question are included below in the paragraph in which they appeared in the President's address. > "The International Atomic Energy Agency > confirmed in the 1990s that Saddam Hussein had an advanced > nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a > nuclear weapon and was working on five different methods of > enriching uranium for a bomb. The British government has > learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant > quantities of uranium from Africa. Our intelligence sources > tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength > aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production. > Saddam Hussein has not credibly explained these activities. > He clearly has much to hide." Best, Dale From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 18:54:37 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:54:37 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] More questioning about the President's Speech Message-ID:

The aluminum tube story was disputed from the beginning, but the Administration continued to use it.  I saw rebuttals to the 'only for centrifuges' claim last year.

In Poland, the President claimed that the two trailers we had found were weapons labs, and that their existence was proof of a weapons program.  However, the trailers, according to the British press, were for hydrogen balloons, and had been sold to Iraq by a British company.  This story came out abroad prior to the Poland speech, but was not picked up by our press; they still tiptoe around it.  In recent days, I have seen some questions, but they are not going after this.  I certainly haven't seen any retraction from the White House, nor would I expect one.

Sunil

>From: "Dale Courtney"
>To:
>Subject: [Vision2020] More questioning about the President's Speech
>Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:30:58 -0700
>
>The issue of the aluminum tubes and its place in the President's speech is
>also being questioned.
>
>The 16 words in question are included below in the paragraph in which they
>appeared in the President's address.
>
> > "The International Atomic Energy Agency
> > confirmed in the 1990s that Saddam Hussein had an advanced
> > nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a
> > nuclear weapon and was working on five different methods of
> > enriching uranium for a bomb. The British government has
> > learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant
> > quantities of uranium from Africa. Our intelligence sources
> > tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength
> > aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production.
> > Saddam Hussein has not credibly explained these activities.
> > He clearly has much to hide."
>
>Best,
>Dale
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 20:35:00 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 12:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] For Garrett Clevenger and Bob Hoffman Message-ID: <20030715193500.34180.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1312739465-1058297700=:33577 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to Garrett Clevenger and Bob Hoffman: I spoke with Peter Basoa over the weekend about the current Radio Free Moscow project. Not only is he opposed to the two of you going ahead with your plans, but he has hurt feelings about being excluded from your project. As you know, Radio Free Moscow is the name of a station originally belonging to Peter Basoa, who, before his recent stroke, was one of the finest DJs and one of the leading political activists in the area. You (Garrett and Bob) are collecting money for Radio Free Moscow, but you are doing so in a haphazard manner: Instead of laying a foundation for a proper alternative to KUOI, 106 or 104, you are simply replicating what is already in the area. Of course, this is not surprising, because you are also involved in the Moscow Food Co-op: perceived by many people in this community as an over-priced, gourmet food store that serves a few, elite interests rather than the whole comminty. What's worse, is that even though I have a reputation as being a trouble-maker on this forum, you are aware that I have several relevant points I'm making about RFM, and you have simply failed to address any of these concerns. If anyone would like to find out where Radio Free Moscow really originates from, all you have to do is call Peter Basoa, who is currently rehabilitating at the Clark House in Moscow. You can find the phone number in the telephone book. Clevenger and Hoffman have brought a shell game into the local media market, and I encourage any possible donors to think carefully about who they are giving money to, and more importantly, if Radio Free Moscow will benefit a large number of people, or just a few hastily-created organizations like the Moscow Civic Association, that simply don't want anyone to challenge the political mind games they play in public and in private, throughout the greater Moscow area. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Moscow) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1312739465-1058297700=:33577 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hi to Garrett Clevenger and Bob Hoffman:
 
I spoke with Peter Basoa over the weekend about the current Radio Free Moscow project.  Not only is he opposed to the two of you going ahead with your plans, but he has hurt feelings about being excluded from your project.  As you know, Radio Free Moscow is the name of a station originally belonging to Peter Basoa, who, before his recent stroke, was one of the finest DJs and one of the leading political activists in the area.
 
You (Garrett and Bob) are collecting money for Radio Free Moscow, but you are doing so in a haphazard manner: Instead of laying a foundation for a proper alternative to KUOI, 106 or 104, you are simply replicating what is already in the area.
 
Of course, this is not surprising, because you are also involved in the Moscow Food Co-op: perceived by many people in this community as an over-priced, gourmet food store that serves a few, elite interests rather than the whole comminty.
 
What's worse, is that even though I have a reputation as being a trouble-maker on this forum, you are aware that I have several relevant points I'm making about RFM, and you have simply failed to address any of these concerns.
 
If anyone would like to find out where Radio Free Moscow really originates from, all you have to do is call Peter Basoa, who is currently rehabilitating at the Clark House in Moscow.  You can find the phone number in the telephone book.
 
Clevenger and Hoffman have brought a shell game into the local media market, and I encourage any possible donors to think carefully about who they are giving money to, and more importantly, if Radio Free Moscow will benefit a large number of people, or just a few hastily-created organizations like the Moscow Civic Association, that simply don't want anyone to challenge the political mind games they play in public and in private, throughout the greater Moscow area.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Moscow)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1312739465-1058297700=:33577-- From timlohr@yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 20:46:40 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 12:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] sexual harassment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030715194640.96174.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Sunil, If the suit had no merit why did Clinton settle it for a sizeable sum? To make the embarrasment go away right? OR was he afraid of the ultimate decision? Also, are you saying it's OK to lie under oath? You don't mention that. I guess the Arkansas State Bar disagrees since he was disbarred. TL --- Sunil Ramalingam wrote: --------------------------------- Tim, If there was any merit to the Jones sexual harassment case, there would have been a line of plaintiff's attorneys ready to take it. Because she had no damages, because she was not threatened with job loss or job-related penalties if she didn't accede to Clinton's wishes (assuming arguendo that her allegations were true), there was no case. That's why it was funded by a private group that was willing to put time into an otherwise worthless case. If the allegations are true, then Clinton was remarkably crass. What would my reaction be to a Republican (or Democrat) charged with the same thing? Much the same as it was in this case, unless the party charged had been a hypocrites who condemned Clinton for his alleged actions. If there's a lesson here, it's that Clinton should have admitted the Lewinsky affair at the beginning; he would have been a lot better off. It's the lying afterwards that sinks you. This is not a lesson the present Administration wants to learn. Sunil --------------------------------- The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From timlohr@yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 20:59:59 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 12:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030715195959.42281.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Donavan, You write: "I believe that Clinton did lie. I think he lied under oath. I think what he did was wrong and unethical. I also think that asking somebody about sexual relationships with someone when they are under oath is more unethical unless it is a murder trial establishing a motive." ----- You don't get it yet, do you? He wasn't lying about a "sexual relationship" in the Jones matter. He was lying about committing an actionable offense--sexual harassment. If you believe sexual harassment is just another sexual relationship, then your thinking is behind even James Carville's. You also write: "Second, There is a big difference between someone lying about getting blown and someone lying and 6,000 people getting blown up." I couldn't agree with you more on that. War is worse than committing perjury every time. BUT, and this is a very big but, HAD Clinton been a Republican then we would have had the Democrat party and their apologists doing everything in their power to convince us that the second type of "blown" was equal importance to the BIG BANG! i.e. the end all/be all event without which the universe would not exist. Also, there's a very plausible theory that the SEX stuff DID lead to some folks getting blown up. How about Clinton lobbing cruise missiles at that aspirin factory in the Sudan? Ever see Wag the Dog? TL --- Donovan Arnold wrote: > Tim, > > First, ever hear of the fifth amendment? Why wasn't > that brought up? > Second, There is a big difference between someone > lying about getting blown > and someone lying and 6,000 people getting blown up. > > If you don't understand the difference between the > two, then I don't know > how else to explain it to you. > > I believe that Clinton did lie. I think he lied > under oath. I think what he > did was wrong and unethical. I also think that > asking somebody about sexual > relationships with someone when they are under oath > is more unethical unless > it is a murder trial establishing a motive. How many > of 50%+ of married men > would lie about an affair. That is why nobody cared. > And it is not an > impeachable offense. Spending $23 million to > investigate a president for the > sake of trying to find something is ludicrous and > unethical when people are > starving. > > To answer your other question the order of > succession is: > Vice President > Speaker of the House > Senate Pro-tempore > Secretary of State > Secretary of Defense > Attorney General > Secretary of Treasury > Secretary of Interior > Secretary of Agriculture > Secretary of Commerce > Secretary of Labor > Secretary of HHS > Secretary of HUD > Secretary of Transportation > Secretary of Energy > Secretary of Education > Secretary of Veterans' Affairs > Sectary of Homeland Security > > After this, Martial Law is declared and the highest > ranking military > official takes control. > > Donovan J Arnold > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > >To: Donovan Arnold > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS > DEMOS? > >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:53:10 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Donovan, > >You wrote: > > > >"Fifth, why didn't the Republicans impeach > Lewinsky, > >it was her that did the > >act, not Clinton."  > > > >Actually what you imply here, that the impeachment > was > >just about Lewinsky is incorrect.  > > > >The two adopted articles of impeachment read as > >follows:  > >  > >1st Article.The president provided perjurious, > false > >and misleading testimony to the grand jury > regarding > >the Paula Jones case and his relationship with > Monica > >Lewinsky. > > > >2nd Article. NOT ADOPTED > > > >3rd Article. The president obstructed justice in an > >effort to delay, impede, cover up and conceal the > >existence of evidence related to the Jones case. > > > > > >While we're discussing it, can you imagine the > >reaction of the supposedly feminist-minded Democrat > >party if a GOP pres. had perjured himself > concerning > >of all things A SEXUAL HARASSMENT LAWSUIT in which > he > >himself was the defendant? > > > >I can hear it now. > >Oooooh the nerve of that sexist lout. Ahhhh...the > >chutzpah of that chauvinist!! Let's maul that > >malicious misogynist!QQ > > > >BUT, when it was one of their own we heard barely a > >peep of criticism against this fellow who has often > >behaved as if women are little more than chattel > for > >his private pleasure. And not only that, committed > the > >crime of perjury when he got caught. > > > > NO, all we got from these pillars of profound > >feminist virtue was James Carville's classist > comment > >about Paula Jones being "trailer trash," and cries > of > >"let's move on." > > > > Gee, I thought feminists considered sexual > >harassment serious business that should be fully > >investigated and litigated so that the rights of > >women, especially women in subordinate employment > >positions, could be protected. > > > > Well they do, as long as one of their buddies > necks > >isn't on the line. Oh, and it would help if the > >alleged victim of this harassment is an elite Ivy > >League type--one of them. If she's not terribly > >refined, not too wealthy, and doesn't have many > >connections when the alleged harassment took place, > >well, that's not a big deal. > > Just sweep it under the rug, lie about it, or > "MOVE > >ON," right? > >  TL > > > >--- Donovan Arnold > wrote: > > > > > > Dale wrote: > > > "Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet > for > > > allowing the uranium claim > > > to be believed by the President? Or do they > impeach > > > the President for > > > trusting the information coming from the CIA?" > > > > > > Dale, first, nobody on the planet except you > > > believes that Tenet is really > > > responsible. > > > Second, Tenet did not provide the information > alone, > > > > > the British, Cheney, > > > Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell did. > > > Third, if the president can't even ask a > question > > > like "Which African > > > Country?" should he also have control of nuclear > > > weapons? > > > Fourth, if Bush is not responsible for the words > > > coming out of his mouth, > > > who is? > > > Fifth, why didn't the Republicans impeach > Lewinsky, > > > it was her that did the > > > act, not Clinton. > > > Finally, if Bush is not responsible for what > comes > > > out of his mouth, how can > > > we trust him, they might have been put there by > > > someone else that lied? > > > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dale Courtney" > > > >To: > > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium > denial--GUTLESS > > > DEMOS? > > > >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:54:34 -0700 > > > > > > > >Tim wrote: > > > > > Why DOESN'T the Democrat party launch and > > > > > impeachment effort if they think it's > warranted? > > > > > > > > > >Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet > for > > > allowing the uranium claim > > > >to be believed by the President? > > > > > > > >Or do they impeach the President for trusting > the > > > information coming from > > > >the CIA? > > > > > > > >Confused, > > > >Dale Courtney > > > >Moscow, Idaho > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > > > > List services made available by First Step > > > Internet, > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > > 1994. > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 > months > > > > > FREE* > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step > > > Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > >http://sbc.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 21:16:54 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] "Underemployment In The Palouse" - for Barbara Richardson Message-ID: <20030715201654.30501.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com> --0-826590169-1058300214=:27691 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Barbara: I heard your "professional" report regarding "underemployment" in the Palouse on one of the local radio stations. Do you really think that you can fool these people here for very long? When I studied macroeconomics, we went over several case studies from the Harvard Business School. You know as well as I do that economics is simply an approximate science. Then, why do you pretend like you're an authority on wage-related issues in the Palouse? Again, I think that you're a phony. I think that people like Emily Sly at the Women's Center at the University of Idaho will do a lot more with a lot less than you need just to "maintain." Your Chamber of Commerce contacts can't help you now, either, because they are going down the tubes, along with Alturas and close friends of the corrupt Bob Hoover administration. Make up your mind: Either be honest when you get the opportunity to speak on the radio, or please, just keep it to yourself! All the best, Douglas Stambler (Moscow) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-826590169-1058300214=:27691 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Barbara:
 
I heard your "professional" report regarding "underemployment" in the Palouse on one of the local radio stations.  Do you really think that you can fool these people here for very long?  When I studied macroeconomics, we went over several case studies from the Harvard Business School.  You know as well as I do that economics is simply an approximate science.  Then, why do you pretend like you're an authority on wage-related issues in the Palouse?
 
Again, I think that you're a phony.  I think that people like Emily Sly at the Women's Center at the University of Idaho will do a lot more with a lot less than you need just to "maintain."  Your Chamber of Commerce contacts can't help you now, either, because they are going down the tubes, along with Alturas and close friends of the corrupt Bob Hoover administration.  Make up your mind: Either be honest when you get the opportunity to speak on the radio, or please, just keep it to yourself!
 
 
All the best,
Douglas Stambler
(Moscow)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-826590169-1058300214=:27691-- From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jul 15 21:51:53 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 20:51:53 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? Message-ID: <200307152019.h6FKJ0QU003691@whale2.fsr.net> Somehow this discussion concerning whether or not President Bush knowingly lied to the American people has become a discussion about President Clinton lying to a senate sub-committee about his sex life. Come on, people! The Clinton-Lewinsky fling thing is over/done/finito. Clinton has paid his dues (as far as the American people are concerned). Let's please continue. The bottom line is, "Do you believe that President Bush knowingly lied to the American people concerning his statements in his State of the Union address last January?" My response is a resounding, "YES." Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From dougwils@moscow.com Tue Jul 15 21:46:42 2003 From: dougwils@moscow.com (Douglas) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:46:42 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? In-Reply-To: <200307152019.h6FKJ0QU003691@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030715134454.0398d1b8@mail.moscow.com> Dear visionoids, Since lying to the public is a problem that time can fix, then let's let it fix the Bush problems. Let the healing begin! Douglas Wilson At 08:51 PM 7/15/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Somehow this discussion concerning whether or not President Bush knowingly >lied >to the American people has become a discussion about President Clinton >lying to >a senate sub-committee about his sex life. > >Come on, people! The Clinton-Lewinsky fling thing is over/done/finito. >Clinton has paid his dues (as far as the American people are >concerned). Let's >please continue. > >The bottom line is, "Do you believe that President Bush knowingly lied to the >American people concerning his statements in his State of the Union address >last January?" > >My response is a resounding, "YES." > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, >Idaho > >--------------------------------------------- >This message was sent by First Step Internet. > http://www.fsr.net/ > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From bradneuman@moscow.com Tue Jul 15 22:23:39 2003 From: bradneuman@moscow.com (Brad Neuman) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:23:39 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Wee Wee Room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003801c34b17$5ca31af0$6401a8c0@DEN> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C34ADC.B04442F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil: =20 The businesses and downtown area are open 365 days a year. The more "downtown" Moscow is people friendly, the more people will be willing to come there to browse and maybe stop in and shop or eat. More and more cities are recognizing the needs of their constituents and providing for some basic necessities. =20 Brad Neuman =20 -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of Cjsnightclub@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 9:57 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Wee Wee Room =20 Since Farmers Market only functions half of the year a portable = rent-a-potty would be the answer. Like on construction sites. Phil ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C34ADC.B04442F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Phil:

 

The businesses and downtown area = are open 365 days a year.  The more “downtown” = Moscow is people = friendly, the more people will be willing to come there to browse and maybe stop in = and shop or eat.  More and more cities are recognizing the needs of their = constituents and providing for some basic necessities.

 

Brad Neuman

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Cjsnightclub@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, = 2003 9:57 AM
To: = vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Wee = Wee Room

 

Since Farmers Market only = functions half of the year a portable rent-a-potty would be the answer. Like on construction sites.

Phil

------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C34ADC.B04442F0-- From wallis@moscow.com Tue Jul 15 22:25:20 2003 From: wallis@moscow.com (wallis@moscow.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:25:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist history In-Reply-To: <20030713190002.91268.45826.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <3F140ED0.27169.1A4F3C57@localhost> Straight from a George Orwell novel? Excerpt of a transcript of the press conference held yeaterday: The President (continuing...) "The larger point is, and the fundamental question is, did Saddam Hussein have a weapons program? And the answer is, absolutely. And we gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn't let them in. And, therefore, after a reasonable request, we decided to remove him from power, along with other nations, so as to make sure he was not a threat to the United States and our friends and allies in the region. I firmly believe the decisions we made will make America more secure and the world more peaceful." "And we gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn't let them in"?? This President accuses others of rewriting history? What world does he live in? Quote from http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/07/20030714-3 Jim Wallis From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 22:43:03 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] let's pee on phil... In-Reply-To: <003801c34b17$5ca31af0$6401a8c0@DEN> Message-ID: <20030715214303.83425.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> --0-433972257-1058305383=:80765 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii let's pee on phil... Brad Neuman wrote: Phil: The businesses and downtown area are open 365 days a year. The more “downtown” Moscow is people friendly, the more people will be willing to come there to browse and maybe stop in and shop or eat. More and more cities are recognizing the needs of their constituents and providing for some basic necessities. Brad Neuman -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Cjsnightclub@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 9:57 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Wee Wee Room Since Farmers Market only functions half of the year a portable rent-a-potty would be the answer. Like on construction sites. Phil --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-433972257-1058305383=:80765 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii let's pee on phil...


Brad Neuman <bradneuman@moscow.com> wrote:

Phil:

 

The businesses and downtown area are open 365 days a year.  The more “downtown” Moscow is people friendly, the more people will be willing to come there to browse and maybe stop in and shop or eat.  More and more cities are recognizing the needs of their constituents and providing for some basic necessities.

 

Brad Neuman

 

-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Cjsnightclub@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 9:57 AM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Wee Wee Room

 

Since Farmers Market only functions half of the year a portable rent-a-potty would be the answer. Like on construction sites.

Phil

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-433972257-1058305383=:80765-- From dougwils@moscow.com Tue Jul 15 23:30:47 2003 From: dougwils@moscow.com (Douglas) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:30:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? In-Reply-To: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FCA@daffy.dfm.uidaho.ed u> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030715152703.03989af0@mail.moscow.com> Tom, No, my point was that if time can erase Clinton's problems, then time can do the same for Bush. But of course time can do neither. Clinton was a scoundrel of the first rank, and Bush appears to be more of a decent individual, measured in terms of how you treat the people close to you. But both of them were/are emperors in the emerging American empire. Which is not a good thing. Douglas At 01:55 PM 7/15/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Let me see if I understand your statement correctly, Mr. Wilson. > >Are you suggesting that as long as there is "time", President Bush should be >permitted to lie? > >Just wondering, > >Tom Hansen > >-----Original Message----- >From: Douglas [mailto:dougwils@moscow.com] >Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 1:47 PM >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? > > > >Dear visionoids, > >Since lying to the public is a problem that time can fix, then let's let it >fix the Bush problems. Let the healing begin! > >Douglas Wilson > > > >At 08:51 PM 7/15/2003 +0000, you wrote: > >Somehow this discussion concerning whether or not President Bush knowingly > >lied > >to the American people has become a discussion about President Clinton > >lying to > >a senate sub-committee about his sex life. > > > >Come on, people! The Clinton-Lewinsky fling thing is over/done/finito. > >Clinton has paid his dues (as far as the American people are > >concerned). Let's > >please continue. > > > >The bottom line is, "Do you believe that President Bush knowingly lied to >the > >American people concerning his statements in his State of the Union address > >last January?" > > > >My response is a resounding, "YES." > > > >Tom Hansen > >Moscow, > >Idaho > > > >--------------------------------------------- > >This message was sent by First Step Internet. > > http://www.fsr.net/ > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Tue Jul 15 23:22:42 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:22:42 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FCB@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Mr. Wilson - The first rule in listserve ettiquette is not to post publicly that which was sent to you privately. That said - The impression I get from you response is that you are loyal to yur wife (or significant other), but you find nothing wrong with lying to your boss about what you do at work? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: Douglas [mailto:dougwils@moscow.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 3:31 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? Tom, No, my point was that if time can erase Clinton's problems, then time can do the same for Bush. But of course time can do neither. Clinton was a scoundrel of the first rank, and Bush appears to be more of a decent individual, measured in terms of how you treat the people close to you. But both of them were/are emperors in the emerging American empire. Which is not a good thing. Douglas At 01:55 PM 7/15/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Let me see if I understand your statement correctly, Mr. Wilson. > >Are you suggesting that as long as there is "time", President Bush should be >permitted to lie? > >Just wondering, > >Tom Hansen > >-----Original Message----- >From: Douglas [mailto:dougwils@moscow.com] >Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 1:47 PM >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? > > > >Dear visionoids, > >Since lying to the public is a problem that time can fix, then let's let it >fix the Bush problems. Let the healing begin! > >Douglas Wilson > > > >At 08:51 PM 7/15/2003 +0000, you wrote: > >Somehow this discussion concerning whether or not President Bush knowingly > >lied > >to the American people has become a discussion about President Clinton > >lying to > >a senate sub-committee about his sex life. > > > >Come on, people! The Clinton-Lewinsky fling thing is over/done/finito. > >Clinton has paid his dues (as far as the American people are > >concerned). Let's > >please continue. > > > >The bottom line is, "Do you believe that President Bush knowingly lied to >the > >American people concerning his statements in his State of the Union address > >last January?" > > > >My response is a resounding, "YES." > > > >Tom Hansen > >Moscow, > >Idaho > > > >--------------------------------------------- > >This message was sent by First Step Internet. > > http://www.fsr.net/ > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From mushroom@moscow.com Tue Jul 15 23:25:50 2003 From: mushroom@moscow.com (Mushroom) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:25:50 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030715134454.0398d1b8@mail.moscow.com> Message-ID: <3F147F6E.5119E2D3@moscow.com> Douglas Wilson wrote: > > Since lying to the public is a problem that time can fix, then let's let it > fix the Bush problems. Let the healing begin! > That would be like on Dec. 8, 1941, saying "Well, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, but now let the healing begin." Bush's carrying on has led to terrible things (people dying who needn't have) and seems highly likely to lead to more terrible things. I'd like the healing to begin but that seems unlikely as long as the heel is still in power. But: I assume your posting was in response to people who said we should forget about Clinton's transgression because it is so far in the past, and I assume your posting wasn't intended seriously. So I'll suggest that Clinton's messing around with Monica justifies Nixon's perfidies. There's correlation there: both Clinton and Nixon were presidents. Don Coombs From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 23:26:32 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:26:32 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? Message-ID:

Douglas,

It's a good thing for Bush that you use 'The way how you treat the people close to you' test in measuring decency.  If you used 'The way you treat people in different countries who happen to be close to where you think Saddam Hussein is' test, then the dead women and children would offer a different answer, don't you think?

I would rather have an upset First Lady every time.  Fewer coffins.

Sunil 


MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 23:30:15 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:30:15 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? Message-ID: Bill Clinton was a scoundrel of the first rank (in the world according to Doug Wilson), and George W. Bush is a more decent individual (again, according to Doug). This administration is incredibly arrogant, secretive, and, as represented by people like Donald Rumsfeld, downright mean-spirited. I'm quite sure that Bush treats the people close to him well. However, with those that question or disagree with him, he's downright dismissive. These traits don't put him very high on my personal decent individual ranking. Carl Westberg Jr. >From: Douglas >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? >Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:30:47 -0700 > >Tom, > >No, my point was that if time can erase Clinton's problems, then time can >do the same for Bush. But of course time can do neither. > >Clinton was a scoundrel of the first rank, and Bush appears to be more of a >decent individual, measured in terms of how you treat the people close to >you. But both of them were/are emperors in the emerging American empire. >Which is not a good thing. > >Douglas > > > >At 01:55 PM 7/15/2003 -0700, you wrote: >>Let me see if I understand your statement correctly, Mr. Wilson. >> >>Are you suggesting that as long as there is "time", President Bush should >>be >>permitted to lie? >> >>Just wondering, >> >>Tom Hansen >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Douglas [mailto:dougwils@moscow.com] >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 1:47 PM >>To: vision2020@moscow.com >>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? >> >> >> >>Dear visionoids, >> >>Since lying to the public is a problem that time can fix, then let's let >>it >>fix the Bush problems. Let the healing begin! >> >>Douglas Wilson >> >> >> >>At 08:51 PM 7/15/2003 +0000, you wrote: >> >Somehow this discussion concerning whether or not President Bush >>knowingly >> >lied >> >to the American people has become a discussion about President Clinton >> >lying to >> >a senate sub-committee about his sex life. >> > >> >Come on, people! The Clinton-Lewinsky fling thing is over/done/finito. >> >Clinton has paid his dues (as far as the American people are >> >concerned). Let's >> >please continue. >> > >> >The bottom line is, "Do you believe that President Bush knowingly lied >>to >>the >> >American people concerning his statements in his State of the Union >>address >> >last January?" >> > >> >My response is a resounding, "YES." >> > >> >Tom Hansen >> >Moscow, >> >Idaho >> > >> >--------------------------------------------- >> >This message was sent by First Step Internet. >> > http://www.fsr.net/ >> > >> > >> >_____________________________________________________ >> > List services made available by First Step Internet, >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> > http://www.fsr.net >> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ >> >> >> >>_____________________________________________________ >> List services made available by First Step Internet, >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 23:50:43 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] wilson does 10 times what clinton did... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030715225043.45447.qmail@web80604.mail.yahoo.com> --0-593534186-1058309443=:45119 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii wilson does 10X what clinton did... Carl Westberg wrote:Bill Clinton was a scoundrel of the first rank (in the world according to Doug Wilson), and George W. Bush is a more decent individual (again, according to Doug). This administration is incredibly arrogant, secretive, and, as represented by people like Donald Rumsfeld, downright mean-spirited. I'm quite sure that Bush treats the people close to him well. However, with those that question or disagree with him, he's downright dismissive. These traits don't put him very high on my personal decent individual ranking. Carl Westberg Jr. >From: Douglas >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? >Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:30:47 -0700 > >Tom, > >No, my point was that if time can erase Clinton's problems, then time can >do the same for Bush. But of course time can do neither. > >Clinton was a scoundrel of the first rank, and Bush appears to be more of a >decent individual, measured in terms of how you treat the people close to >you. But both of them were/are emperors in the emerging American empire. >Which is not a good thing. > >Douglas > > > >At 01:55 PM 7/15/2003 -0700, you wrote: >>Let me see if I understand your statement correctly, Mr. Wilson. >> >>Are you suggesting that as long as there is "time", President Bush should >>be >>permitted to lie? >> >>Just wondering, >> >>Tom Hansen >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Douglas [mailto:dougwils@moscow.com] >>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 1:47 PM >>To: vision2020@moscow.com >>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? >> >> >> >>Dear visionoids, >> >>Since lying to the public is a problem that time can fix, then let's let >>it >>fix the Bush problems. Let the healing begin! >> >>Douglas Wilson >> >> >> >>At 08:51 PM 7/15/2003 +0000, you wrote: >> >Somehow this discussion concerning whether or not President Bush >>knowingly >> >lied >> >to the American people has become a discussion about President Clinton >> >lying to >> >a senate sub-committee about his sex life. >> > >> >Come on, people! The Clinton-Lewinsky fling thing is over/done/finito. >> >Clinton has paid his dues (as far as the American people are >> >concerned). Let's >> >please continue. >> > >> >The bottom line is, "Do you believe that President Bush knowingly lied >>to >>the >> >American people concerning his statements in his State of the Union >>address >> >last January?" >> > >> >My response is a resounding, "YES." >> > >> >Tom Hansen >> >Moscow, >> >Idaho >> > >> >--------------------------------------------- >> >This message was sent by First Step Internet. >> > http://www.fsr.net/ >> > >> > >> >_____________________________________________________ >> > List services made available by First Step Internet, >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> > http://www.fsr.net >> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ >> >> >> >>_____________________________________________________ >> List services made available by First Step Internet, >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-593534186-1058309443=:45119 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii wilson does 10X what clinton did...


Carl Westberg <carlwestberg846@hotmail.com> wrote:
Bill Clinton was a scoundrel of the first rank (in the world according to
Doug Wilson), and George W. Bush is a more decent individual (again,
according to Doug). This administration is incredibly arrogant, secretive,
and, as represented by people like Donald Rumsfeld, downright mean-spirited.
I'm quite sure that Bush treats the people close to him well. However,
with those that question or disagree with him, he's downright dismissive.
These traits don't put him very high on my personal decent individual
ranking.


Carl Westberg Jr.


>From: Douglas
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS?
>Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:30:47 -0700
>
>Tom,
>
>No, my point was that if time can erase Clinton's problems, then time can
>d! o the same for Bush. But of course time can do neither.
>
>Clinton was a scoundrel of the first rank, and Bush appears to be more of a
>decent individual, measured in terms of how you treat the people close to
>you. But both of them were/are emperors in the emerging American empire.
>Which is not a good thing.
>
>Douglas
>
>
>
>At 01:55 PM 7/15/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>>Let me see if I understand your statement correctly, Mr. Wilson.
>>
>>Are you suggesting that as long as there is "time", President Bush should
>>be
>>permitted to lie?
>>
>>Just wondering,
>>
>>Tom Hansen
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Douglas [mailto:dougwils@moscow.com]
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 1:47 PM
>>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS?
>>
>>
>>
>>Dear visionoids,
>>
>>Since lying to the public is a problem that time can fix, then let's let
>>it
>>fix the Bush problems. Let the healing begin!
>>
>>Douglas Wilson
>>
>>
>>
>>At 08:51 PM 7/15/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>> >Somehow this discussion concerning whether or not President Bush
>>knowingly
>> >lied
>> >to the American people has become a discussion about President Clinton
>> >lying to
>> >a senate sub-committee about his sex life.
>> >
>> >Come on, people! The Clinton-Lewinsky fling thing is over/done/finito.
>> >Clinton has paid his dues (as far as the American people are
>> >concerned). Let's
>> >please continue.
>> >
>> >The bottom line is, "Do you believe that Preside! nt Bush knowingly lied
>>to
>>the
>> >American people concerning his statements in his State of the Union
>>address
>> >last January?"
>> >
>> >My response is a resounding, "YES."
>> >
>> >Tom Hansen
>> >Moscow,
>> >Idaho
>> >
>> >---------------------------------------------
>> >This message was sent by First Step Internet.
>> > http://www.fsr.net/
>> >
>> >
>> >_____________________________________________________
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > http://www.fsr.net
>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>>
>>
>>
>>_____________________________________________________
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>
>
>_____________________________________________________
>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
>communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
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_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-593534186-1058309443=:45119-- From DonaldH675@aol.com Wed Jul 16 00:13:42 2003 From: DonaldH675@aol.com (DonaldH675@aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 19:13:42 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Picnic Regrets Message-ID: --part1_a2.39cd457f.2c45e4a6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Jessica, Please accept our regrets at being unable to attend the Vision 20/20 potluck. We had really looked forward to it. Unfortunately, we had unexpected guests arrive at our home last night, that would be Mr. and Ms. Strep Throat. Although many contributors at V20/20 consider us to be relatively toxic people, if we attended the picnic, we might unhappily live up to that billing. I do hope that your splendid idea will inspire other picnics which we will make every effort to attend. Best wishes, Rose Huskey and also, Don Huskey, Joan Opyr, Melynda Huskey, and children --part1_a2.39cd457f.2c45e4a6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Jessica,
Please accept our regrets at being unable to attend the Vision 20/20 potluck= .  We had really looked forward to it.  Unfortunately, we had unex= pected guests arrive at our home last night, that would be Mr. and Ms. Strep= Throat.  Although many contributors at V20/20 consider us to be relati= vely toxic people, if we attended the picnic, we might unhappily live up to=20= that billing.  I do hope that your splendid idea will inspire other pic= nics which we will make every effort to attend.
Best wishes,
Rose Huskey
and also, Don Huskey, Joan Opyr, Melynda Huskey, and children --part1_a2.39cd457f.2c45e4a6_boundary-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 00:17:57 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] HOUSE PARTY AT THE HUSKEY'S AFTER THE PICNIC!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030715231757.19438.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> --0-390751231-1058311077=:18951 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii HOUSE PARTY AT THE HUSKEY'S AFTER THE PICNIC!! DonaldH675@aol.com wrote:Dear Jessica, Please accept our regrets at being unable to attend the Vision 20/20 potluck. We had really looked forward to it. Unfortunately, we had unexpected guests arrive at our home last night, that would be Mr. and Ms. Strep Throat. Although many contributors at V20/20 consider us to be relatively toxic people, if we attended the picnic, we might unhappily live up to that billing. I do hope that your splendid idea will inspire other picnics which we will make every effort to attend. Best wishes, Rose Huskey and also, Don Huskey, Joan Opyr, Melynda Huskey, and children --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-390751231-1058311077=:18951 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii HOUSE PARTY AT THE HUSKEY'S AFTER THE PICNIC!!


DonaldH675@aol.com wrote:
Dear Jessica,
Please accept our regrets at being unable to attend the Vision 20/20 potluck.  We had really looked forward to it.  Unfortunately, we had unexpected guests arrive at our home last night, that would be Mr. and Ms. Strep Throat.  Although many contributors at V20/20 consider us to be relatively toxic people, if we attended the picnic, we might unhappily live up to that billing.  I do hope that your splendid idea will inspire other picnics which we will make every effort to attend.
Best wishes,
Rose Huskey
and also, Don Huskey, Joan Opyr, Melynda Huskey, and children

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-390751231-1058311077=:18951-- From stin1624@uidaho.edu Wed Jul 16 01:16:06 2003 From: stin1624@uidaho.edu (Tami Stinebaugh) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:16:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Friendship Square Message-ID: <6d1d56b324.6b3246d1d5@uidaho.edu> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_8W3tG3md5S0duqu5SJipTg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline I experienced the same problem this past weekend. My daughter and I went for a walk/bike ride downtown and of course as soon as we got to the fountain she realized she needed to go to the bathroom. I looked over at the Garden lounge, and quickly decided to walk to our nearest friend's house. My daughter is only seven years old and this was not easy for her! A public bathroom downtown would be greatly appreciated! Tami Stinebaugh --Boundary_(ID_8W3tG3md5S0duqu5SJipTg) Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Return-path: Received: from conversion-daemon.mailA.its.uidaho.edu by mailA.its.uidaho.edu (Go Vandals!) id <0HI000I01VI88S@mailA.its.uidaho.edu>; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snow ([129.101.155.251]) by mailA.its.uidaho.edu (Go Vandals!) with ESMTPP id <0HI000ANZVIGOY@mailA.its.uidaho.edu>; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mailB.its.uidaho.edu by mailB.its.uidaho.edu (Go Vandals!) id <0HI000201VC6XS@mailB.its.uidaho.edu>; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whale2.fsr.net ([207.141.26.23]) by mailB.its.uidaho.edu (Go Vandals!) with ESMTPP id <0HI000IGMVH69S@mailB.its.uidaho.edu>; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whale2.fsr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6EG95QU052723; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:09:05 -0700 Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx69.postini.com [12.158.34.221]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id h6EG8qQU052258 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:08:52 -0700 (PDT envelope-from emiller101@msn.com) Received: from source ([207.141.24.20]) by exprod5mx69.postini.com ([12.158.34.245]) with SMTP; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay3-f22.bay3.hotmail.com [65.54.169.22]) by fsr.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6EG8FQ76294 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:08:15 -0700 (PDT envelope-from emiller101@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:07:16 -0700 Received: from 64.126.161.60 by by3fd.bay3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:07:16 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:07:16 +0000 From: Erik Miller Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Friendship Square X-Originating-IP: [64.126.161.60] Sender: vision2020-admin@moscow.com To: Vision2020@moscow.com Errors-to: vision2020-admin@moscow.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: vision2020@moscow.com X-Originating-Email: [emiller101@msn.com] X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10 List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: List-Id: Moscow/Latah county community discussion list X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2003 16:07:16.0788 (UTC) FILETIME=[FEEDCF40:01C34A21]

I agree, we need a nice public restroom in the downtown Friendship Square area. My thought is only that we should try to keep it as nice and clean as possible, I think that while portable units work great for single events, Friendship Square is permanent and should if possible have a permanent restroom.

Erik Miller
www.moscow-pullman.com

> Friendship Square was filled on Saturday during the Farmer's Market.
>
> But for anyone looking for a bathroom, it's not a friendly place.
> While some nearby businesses may allow customers or others to use a
>bathroom, there is no public restroom in the square. And that is a
>problem if Moscow is going to continue to build the Farmer's Market or
>other downtown activities into popular events for residents and
>visitors.
> Other towns that want to encourage visitors to their downtown areas
>(Leavenworth is an excellent example) provide public bathrooms,
>wheelchair accessible and placed prominently for all to locate and use.
> Now, the city does keep a bathroom open in what was the city hall
>and what is now the police station. However, few residents and
>virtually no visitors know of its existence. Also, it is a block away
>and up a stairway.
> Now is a good time for the city to find a solution to this problem.
>Friendship Square is going to be renovated soon. Economic development
>through increased arts/cultural event tourism is becoming more
>significant.
> Is there a place to build a permanent public restroom?
> Would a portable restroom suffice?
>BL

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --Boundary_(ID_8W3tG3md5S0duqu5SJipTg)-- From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 01:58:01 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:58:01 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] sexual harassment (offline) Message-ID:
>
>Sunil,
> If the suit had no merit why did Clinton settle it
>for a sizeable sum? To make the embarrasment go away

>right? OR was he afraid of the ultimate decision?

To make the case go away because of the embarassment value. I don't think anyone was afraid of the ultimate decision, but there was going to be a whole lot of humiliation before the deal was over. If Joe Sixpack had allegedly done what was alleged to have been done by Clinton, there wouldn't have been any nuisance value and likely very little to recover.  Same thing if I were accused of this, and there were no damages.  I doubt my malpractice insurance would cover an intentional act that is beyond the scope of my duties.

This suit gave the Clinton-haters the chance to pry around in his private life and see what they could find.  And because he couldn't keep it in his pants, they found something. 

> Also, are you saying it's OK to lie under oath?  You don't mention that.

That's right, I didn't mention that, but that's hardly the same as saying it's OK, wouldn't you agree? 

I'm certainly not shocked by it.  I see it happen all the time, with no legal consequence.  I'm a public defender, and I've seen cops lie on the stand at times, and I've seen the state's witnesses lie on the stand.  At one preliminary hearing, the 'victim' was such a bad liar, the judge took a recess so the prosecutor could dismiss the case.  Was he charged with perjury?  No.

I'm not trying to excuse it, but while the scandal was slowly unwinding, I got tired of hearing people say "If it were anyone else, he'd be charged with a crime."  No, everybody else does not get charged with perjury. 

We got into this because I disagreed with your statement that the Republicans who impeached Clinton had courage.  I still disagree.  They thought the public would agree with them and support impeachment.  You appear to, but on this issue, I think most people said, "OK, he lied about blow jobs.  I would too."  I remember David Broder's columns from that period.  He's often labelled a liberal, and if my memory serves me correctly, he was shocked when the public didn't get behind impeachment.

You and I may agree on one issue.  I would have supported impeaching Clinton for the missile attack on the pharmacy.  But how many other people are with me on this?  Certainly not the Republicans who voted for impeachment for perjury.  The ability to kill people on a Presidential whim is too sacred to rise to the level of an impeachable offense.

Sunil

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 02:01:20 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:01:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] sexual harassment (offline)-apology for prior post Message-ID:

Sorry all.  I intended to respond to Tim offline, and even wrote that on the subject line; however, I failed to remove V2020 in the address.  I used a term I would not have used in a public post in that last email, and I apologize to all that I have offended. 

My wife will probably point out that if I just didn't use such terms, I wouldn't have to worry about such mistakes, and she'd be write.

Sunil Ramalingam



 


Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 04:24:24 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 20:24:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? Message-ID: Tim wrote: "You don't get it yet, do you? He wasn't lying about >a "sexual relationship" in the Jones matter. He was >lying about committing an actionable offense--sexual >harassment. If you believe sexual harassment is just >another sexual relationship, then your thinking is >behind even James Carville's." No, based on that statement you just don't understand. Clinton lied about his sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky while under oath testifying about the Paula Jones investigation. This is what is so irrelevant about the case. What does Monica have to do with Jones's case? Nothing! They were trying to use it as an established behavior. That is why the "blue dress" came into the picture. It was to prove that Clinton did have relations "with that women." Second, No, I do not think that sexual harassment is "just another sexual relationship". But I also happen to think that mutual consent is not sexual harassment. I also don't think that people that assume someone is "guilty" just because they are accused of it should leave the country because that is not what this country is about. Clinton was found "not guilty". Did the Repubcraps let it go. No! "HAD Clinton been a Republican then we >would have had the Democrat party and their apologists >doing everything in their power to convince us that >the second type of "blown" was equal importance to the >BIG BANG! i.e. the end all/be all event without which >the universe would not exist." Disagree, you were not around then. Playboy magazine and several others dug into the backgrounds of several other Republicans to find out that in fact they were or had been involved in extra martial affairs as well. Actually, quite a few of them. Helen Chenoweth, our US representative at the time, flat out said that Clinton should resign because of his adulterous affairs. Then two weeks later a man who had an affair with her came forward and reported his affair with her, evidence and all. Bob Livingston, running for speaker of the house, also had an affair and was exposed, as well as the leader in the effort of impeaching Clinton, Rep. Henry Hyde. Were any of these representatives charged with lying, under oath they were under when they were sworn in as elected officials? No, they were not, they let it slide. But not the Republicans they spent $23 million dollars to find out that Bill Clinton got a blow job and lied about it. And nobody gave a damn! And they shouldn't. When a poll was taken most men said they would lie if asked the same question under oath. "Also, there's a very plausible theory that the SEX >stuff DID lead to some folks getting blown up. How >about Clinton lobbing cruise missiles at that aspirin >factory in the Sudan? Ever see Wag the Dog?" LOL, give me a break! That was a milk factory in Sudan that was producing chemical weapons. Often times many factories switch from one form of production to another in third words. Iraq does the same thing. Further, that story lasted about three days. Two Tomahawk missiles were fired and that was it. Yes, I have heard of Wag the Dog. And that is exactly what the President that was not elected by the people, like most dictators in the world, is doing in Iraq. We went there to A) Remove Saddam, B) Remove Weapons of Mass Destruction, C) Restore peace in the region. Which one of these have we accomplished? How many soldiers have died? How many Iraqi civilians have died? How many have been wounded? How many more will die or be wounded? When are you going to admit you were wrong for supporting that war? When are you going to admit we have a stupid president that is going kill everyone if he has another four years as president? Donovan J Arnold >From: Tim Lohrmann >To: Donovan Arnold >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? >Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 12:59:59 -0700 (PDT) > >Donavan, > You write: >"I believe that Clinton did lie. I think he lied under >oath. I think what he did was wrong and unethical. I >also think that asking somebody about >sexual relationships with someone when they are under >oath is more unethical unless it is a murder trial >establishing a motive." >----- > You don't get it yet, do you? He wasn't lying about >a "sexual relationship" in the Jones matter. He was >lying about committing an actionable offense--sexual >harassment. If you believe sexual harassment is just >another sexual relationship, then your thinking is >behind even James Carville's. > >You also write: >"Second, There is a big difference between someone >lying about getting blown and someone lying and 6,000 >people getting blown up." > >I couldn't agree with you more on that. War is worse >than committing perjury every time. BUT, and this is a >very big but, HAD Clinton been a Republican then we >would have had the Democrat party and their apologists >doing everything in their power to convince us that >the second type of "blown" was equal importance to the >BIG BANG! i.e. the end all/be all event without which >the universe would not exist. > >> TL > > > >--- Donovan Arnold wrote: > > Tim, > > > > First, ever hear of the fifth amendment? Why wasn't > > that brought up? > > Second, There is a big difference between someone > > lying about getting blown > > and someone lying and 6,000 people getting blown up. > > > > If you don't understand the difference between the > > two, then I don't know > > how else to explain it to you. > > > > I believe that Clinton did lie. I think he lied > > under oath. I think what he > > did was wrong and unethical. I also think that > > asking somebody about sexual > > relationships with someone when they are under oath > > is more unethical unless > > it is a murder trial establishing a motive. How many > > of 50%+ of married men > > would lie about an affair. That is why nobody cared. > > And it is not an > > impeachable offense. Spending $23 million to > > investigate a president for the > > sake of trying to find something is ludicrous and > > unethical when people are > > starving. > > > > To answer your other question the order of > > succession is: > > Vice President > > Speaker of the House > > Senate Pro-tempore > > Secretary of State > > Secretary of Defense > > Attorney General > > Secretary of Treasury > > Secretary of Interior > > Secretary of Agriculture > > Secretary of Commerce > > Secretary of Labor > > Secretary of HHS > > Secretary of HUD > > Secretary of Transportation > > Secretary of Energy > > Secretary of Education > > Secretary of Veterans' Affairs > > Sectary of Homeland Security > > > > After this, Martial Law is declared and the highest > > ranking military > > official takes control. > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > > >To: Donovan Arnold > > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS > > DEMOS? > > >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:53:10 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >Donovan, > > >You wrote: > > > > > >"Fifth, why didn't the Republicans impeach > > Lewinsky, > > >it was her that did the > > >act, not Clinton."  > > > > > >Actually what you imply here, that the impeachment > > was > > >just about Lewinsky is incorrect.  > > > > > >The two adopted articles of impeachment read as > > >follows:  > > >  > > >1st Article.The president provided perjurious, > > false > > >and misleading testimony to the grand jury > > regarding > > >the Paula Jones case and his relationship with > > Monica > > >Lewinsky. > > > > > >2nd Article. NOT ADOPTED > > > > > >3rd Article. The president obstructed justice in an > > >effort to delay, impede, cover up and conceal the > > >existence of evidence related to the Jones case. > > > > > > > > >While we're discussing it, can you imagine the > > >reaction of the supposedly feminist-minded Democrat > > >party if a GOP pres. had perjured himself > > concerning > > >of all things A SEXUAL HARASSMENT LAWSUIT in which > > he > > >himself was the defendant? > > > > > >I can hear it now. > > >Oooooh the nerve of that sexist lout. Ahhhh...the > > >chutzpah of that chauvinist!! Let's maul that > > >malicious misogynist!QQ > > > > > >BUT, when it was one of their own we heard barely a > > >peep of criticism against this fellow who has often > > >behaved as if women are little more than chattel > > for > > >his private pleasure. And not only that, committed > > the > > >crime of perjury when he got caught. > > > > > > NO, all we got from these pillars of profound > > >feminist virtue was James Carville's classist > > comment > > >about Paula Jones being "trailer trash," and cries > > of > > >"let's move on." > > > > > > Gee, I thought feminists considered sexual > > >harassment serious business that should be fully > > >investigated and litigated so that the rights of > > >women, especially women in subordinate employment > > >positions, could be protected. > > > > > > Well they do, as long as one of their buddies > > necks > > >isn't on the line. Oh, and it would help if the > > >alleged victim of this harassment is an elite Ivy > > >League type--one of them. If she's not terribly > > >refined, not too wealthy, and doesn't have many > > >connections when the alleged harassment took place, > > >well, that's not a big deal. > > > Just sweep it under the rug, lie about it, or > > "MOVE > > >ON," right? > > >  TL > > > > > >--- Donovan Arnold > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dale wrote: > > > > "Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet > > for > > > > allowing the uranium claim > > > > to be believed by the President? Or do they > > impeach > > > > the President for > > > > trusting the information coming from the CIA?" > > > > > > > > Dale, first, nobody on the planet except you > > > > believes that Tenet is really > > > > responsible. > > > > Second, Tenet did not provide the information > > alone, > > > > > > > the British, Cheney, > > > > Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell did. > > > > Third, if the president can't even ask a > > question > > > > like "Which African > > > > Country?" should he also have control of nuclear > > > > weapons? > > > > Fourth, if Bush is not responsible for the words > > > > coming out of his mouth, > > > > who is? > > > > Fifth, why didn't the Republicans impeach > > Lewinsky, > > > > it was her that did the > > > > act, not Clinton. > > > > Finally, if Bush is not responsible for what > > comes > > > > out of his mouth, how can > > > > we trust him, they might have been put there by > > > > someone else that lied? > > > > > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dale Courtney" > > > > >To: > > > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium > > denial--GUTLESS > > > > DEMOS? > > > > >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:54:34 -0700 > > > > > > > > > >Tim wrote: > > > > > > Why DOESN'T the Democrat party launch and > > > > > > impeachment effort if they think it's > > warranted? > > > > > > > > > > > > >Would they impeach CIA Director George Tenet > > for > > > > allowing the uranium claim > > > > >to be believed by the President? > > > > > > > > > >Or do they impeach the President for trusting > > the > > > > information coming from > > > > >the CIA? > > > > > > > > > >Confused, > > > > >Dale Courtney > > > > >Moscow, Idaho > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > List services made available by First Step > > > > Internet, > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > > > 1994. > > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > > > > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 > > months > > > > > > > FREE* > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > > List services made available by First Step > > > > Internet, > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > 1994. > > > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > > >Do you Yahoo!? > > >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > > >http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > > >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step > > Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >http://sbc.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From auntiestablishment@hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 05:07:35 2003 From: auntiestablishment@hotmail.com (Joan Opyr) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 21:07:35 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] I hear he doesn't kick Barney. Message-ID: Let me chime in with Sunil, Carl, Tom and Don and disagree with Doug. I know you're all surprised, and when you've finished fanning yourselves and passing around the smelling salts, please continue reading. First, I don't know that George Bush does treat Laura substantially better than Bill treated Hillary. Sure, we don't have a salacious report from Kenneth Starr detailing his exploits with cigars and interns, but we do know that Mr. Bush spent the first ten years of his married life falling down drunk, and the he ran various and sundry businesses into the ground. Doesn't sound to me like a recipe for connubial bliss. Having grown up in house full of alcoholics, quite frankly, I'd rather live with an adulterer. Someone who has a zipper problem would be infinitely preferable to someone who regularly sets the house on fire, marches around with a loaded shotgun, and insists on playing "Deep Purple" on a Wurlitzer organ at three o'clock in the morning. (Not that I'm suggesting Mr. Bush has done any/all of these things. According to "George and Laura: Portrait of an American Marriage," he just drove drunk, screamed obscenities at people in restaurants, and danced naked on a table in a Texas bar.) Some of our best presidents have been demonstrably unfaithful to their wives: Washington, Jefferson, FDR. The great Winston Churchill was no paragon of fidelity. (In fact, I'm at a loss to name a European prime minister or premiere who was faithful to his wife. Hitler, maybe? And that, I think, might be attributed to the shortness of his marriage to Ms. Braun rather than to any virtue on his part.) If we're looking for honesty, decency, and integrity in a President, we need a more sophisticated measure than whether or not his marriage seems happy. I don't care if George Bush is nice to Laura, his dog, or the guy who empties the spitoon in the Oval Office -- if he's forthright in private but lies like a rug in public, what have we gained? We have two hundred dead military personnel, a thousand wounded, and countless dead Iraqi civilians on our hands. Under the circumstances, I don't care if George sends his mother a box of candy on her birthday. When a President takes us to war, we need to be absolutely certain that the rationales offered are as clear and true as humanly possible; they should withstand the most intense scrutiny. That's the price of risking other people's lives for the sake of your own convictions. I was far more disgusted by Bill Clinton's support for the Defense of Marriage Act, his bombing of Yugoslavia and Kosovo, and his signing of the so-called Welfare Reform Act than I was by anything he did with Ms. Lewinsky. She was over twenty-one, and if Mr. Starr is to be believed, she never said anything but yes. When the American people are screwed, on the other hand, it's almost always non-consensual. Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 05:45:00 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 04:45:00 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist history Message-ID: Jim et. al. The decision to invade and occupy Iraq was already planned before W. took office, as the Project For A New American century clearly spelled out, with signatories to PNAC now prominent in the Bush administration. http://www.newamericancentury.org/ I think Bush really believes his decision making is moral and reasonable. And that he is plainly not very good at complicated analysis of political or economic issues. I believe he's a front man being led around by prominent PNAC strategists and Pentagon insiders, among them Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle and others. I have heard the opinion that he exhibits the symptoms of dry drunk syndrome. Thus the errors of fact and speech that he often exhibits. But some take a more cynical view that he is privately laughing his head off at how far he is putting us on with his straight talking, man of action, tough guy, let's keep it simple, anti-intellectual, Texas Bible believe'n redneck pose. That he in fact knows that he is often spouting BS, but Carl Rove and the Republican strategists advise Bush to speak as he does for effect. There is a strong anti-intellectual bias in much of America, and Bush's malapropisms and misstatements of fact just enforce the impression he's no slick talking sneaky intellectual like Clinton. He may get things mixed up every so often, but he speaks his mind plainly, believes in sound moral values, acts decisively, just like a regular cowboy, and so forth. The basis for controlling public opinion to justify the Iraq war was emotional in nature, and had little to do with fact and logic. Fear of terrorism was used and exploited and encouraged by W. Bush to whip the American public into acceptance of the Iraq war. After all, that "mushroom cloud" image Bush used before the Iraq war to exploit the fears of the American people, based on lies that Iraq had a legitimate nuclear threat, worked like magic to legitimize the invasion. All this current hubbub about the intelligence problems and errors of fact that came from the Bush administration in justifying the Iraq war I find bizarre, considering that all of this was clearly known before we invaded Iraq! If this is the best that our media and press and political system can do to expose misinformation and out right lies used to exploit public opinion to manipulate acquiescence to war, we are in deep s**t! I predict Bush will win re-election. Ted >From: wallis@moscow.com >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist history >Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:25:20 -0700 > >Straight from a George Orwell novel? > >Excerpt of a transcript of the press conference held yeaterday: >The President (continuing...) >"The larger point is, and the fundamental question is, did Saddam >Hussein have a weapons program? And the answer is, absolutely. >And we gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he >wouldn't let them in. And, therefore, after a reasonable request, we >decided to remove him from power, along with other nations, so as >to make sure he was not a threat to the United States and our >friends and allies in the region. I firmly believe the decisions we >made will make America more secure and the world more >peaceful." > >"And we gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he >wouldn't let them in"?? This President accuses others of rewriting >history? What world does he live in? > >Quote from >http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/07/20030714-3 > >Jim Wallis > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 05:54:15 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 04:54:15 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] sexual harassment Message-ID: Sunil and All: Yes! Such a good point. The attack on the drug manufacturing plant in the Sudan, if that is what you meant, was far worse of an action for Clinton to have taken, than lying about his extra-marital adventures. So I for one agree with you on this, though I am not sure the attack in Sudan would have risen to an impeachable offense. Ted _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 06:15:32 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:15:32 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Core Of Iraq Weapons Case Crumbling Message-ID: All: More info reflecing on the integrity, professionalism and trust the Bush administration should inspire: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3063361.stm Ted _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From bentwigg@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 06:27:04 2003 From: bentwigg@yahoo.com (Ben Twigg) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] thank you Message-ID: <20030716052704.49900.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> Casandra and Jessica, Thank you for organizing the potluck (not to mention for providing food and beverages)... Ben Twigg __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From jsullivan@moscow.com Wed Jul 16 17:26:00 2003 From: jsullivan@moscow.com (JSullivan) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:26:00 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Friendship Square References: <6d1d56b324.6b3246d1d5@uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <001201c34bb6$f1ff7e50$81f2f5c7@Janestas> There is so much handling of food and produce at Farmer's Market, I feel it important we have bathrooms with sinks, to wash our hands. This will cut down on the passing of nasty germs. I did notice there was a restroom sign on the old GTE building this last Saturday, inviting people to use their restrooms. While I didn't use them, thank you to whomever is responsible! *smile* Janesta Sullivan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tami Stinebaugh" To: "Erik Miller" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 5:16 PM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Friendship Square > I experienced the same problem this past weekend. My daughter and I went for a walk/bike ride downtown and of course as soon as we got to the fountain she realized she needed to go to the bathroom. I looked over at the Garden lounge, and quickly decided to walk to our nearest friend's house. My daughter is only seven years old and this was not easy for her! A public bathroom downtown would be greatly appreciated! > > Tami Stinebaugh > From dougwils@moscow.com Wed Jul 16 17:56:28 2003 From: dougwils@moscow.com (Douglas) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:56:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial -- GUTLESS DEMOS Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030716094622.01bed7c8@mail.moscow.com> Visionaries, Apologies to Tom for accidentally answering him publicly. My mistake -- again. For the rest, it seems that you all have this unshakeable notion that I am a Republican, and that I am trying to insinuate some oblique defenses of the current regime. But the difference between Clinton and Bush is like the difference between Nero and Vespasian. I am opposed to the Pax Americana, whether it comes in the Republican light blue or the Democratic powder blue. The last presidential election where Americans had a real choice to go in one of two opposite directions occurred a long time before I was born. I offer observations on the differences between Clinton and Bush as a disinterested observer -- and not a defender of either. Douglas Wilson From thansen@moscow.com Wed Jul 16 18:28:14 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:28:14 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections Message-ID: <200307161655.h6GGtJQU036212@whale2.fsr.net> Douglas Wilson stated: "The last presidential election where Americans had a real choice to go in one of two opposite directions occurred a long time before I was born." Please elaborate. Every federal presidential election in which I have participated since I was of voting age (and that has been several days ago) has clearly consisted of at least two choices (and in some cases three or more). In my opinion for presidential election results to truly reflect the peoples' choice is to eliminate the electoral college and base the outcome stricly on popular vote. In the event that a candidate does not attract the majority vote (defined as 50% plus one), there should be a runoff between the top two candidates. It is clearly that simple. Any other thoughts? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 18:04:17 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] i'm wondering Message-ID: <20030716170417.98256.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> --0-749522722-1058375057=:96815 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hello, ms. sullivan: i'm wondering if they breed losers at the "old GTE building," or if just a bunch of losers hang out there. i thought that since you know so much about their bathrooms, you might be able to tell the forum more of what goes on inside the "old GTE building." In Christ, Douglas Stambler (moscow) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-749522722-1058375057=:96815 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
hello, ms. sullivan:
 
i'm wondering if they breed losers at the "old GTE building," or if just a bunch of losers hang out there.  i thought that since you know so much about their bathrooms, you might be able to tell the forum more of what goes on inside the "old GTE building."
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(moscow)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-749522722-1058375057=:96815-- From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Wed Jul 16 18:15:58 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:15:58 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] i'm wondering Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FCE@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34BBD.ECA82310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mr. Stambler - I have laughed at alot of your previous postings, but this one is clearly insulting. Your ramblings are now aimed (with venom) toward specific V2020 subscribers for no other purpose than to show your absolute ignorance and lack of concern for human decency. Realizing that you have every right to post your ill-conceived opinions on this forum, I am seriously considering my right to unsubscribe to what was at one time a very constructive resource in expanding my knowledge of this region and its people. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:ccm_moscow@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:04 AM To: jsullivan@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] i'm wondering hello, ms. sullivan: i'm wondering if they breed losers at the "old GTE building," or if just a bunch of losers hang out there. i thought that since you know so much about their bathrooms, you might be able to tell the forum more of what goes on inside the "old GTE building." In Christ, Douglas Stambler (moscow) _____ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34BBD.ECA82310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Mr. Stambler -
 
I have laughed at alot of your previous postings, but this one is clearly insulting.  Your ramblings are now aimed (with venom) toward specific V2020 subscribers for no other purpose than to show your absolute ignorance and lack of concern for human decency.
 
Realizing that you have every right to post your ill-conceived opinions on this forum, I am seriously considering my right to unsubscribe to what was at one time a very constructive resource in expanding my knowledge of this region and its people.
 
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:ccm_moscow@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:04 AM
To: jsullivan@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] i'm wondering

hello, ms. sullivan:
 
i'm wondering if they breed losers at the "old GTE building," or if just a bunch of losers hang out there.  i thought that since you know so much about their bathrooms, you might be able to tell the forum more of what goes on inside the "old GTE building."
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(moscow)

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
------_=_NextPart_001_01C34BBD.ECA82310-- From joshuahendrik@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 18:19:23 2003 From: joshuahendrik@yahoo.com (Joshua Nieuwsma) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections In-Reply-To: <200307161655.h6GGtJQU036212@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <20030716171923.2932.qmail@web41011.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1908155551-1058375963=:1912 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii some thoughts: Having a purely majority vote election would split the country. It's already becoming divided, but in my opinion choosing a leader based solely upon 50.0001% of the votes is crazy. At least right now, with the electoral college, we have a system to blame when someone gets voted in with less than the majority of the citizens votes. An entity is alot less personal than the guy down the street who we have enmity against, if it is a hotly contested election, because he voted for the other guy that got in instead of our 49.9999% guy. Simple majority is a great way to get people frustrated, upset, and eventually riotous. (Incidentally, it is also a dangerous basis for legislation.) The southern states were quite unhappy when Lincoln won the presidency without even a simple majority. He got something like 37%. But the electoral college put him in power. And besides, no one likes runoffs. Isn't it best to avoid them? We don't live in anything remotely like an ideal state. Look at how hard it is for California to decide to replace their governor. How much worse to hold a second presidential election. It's just not feasible, in my opinion. And Mr. Hansen, I think you missed Pastor Wilson's point. Two opposite directions (i.e. not facing same way) is not the same thing as two different choices. Both the Dems and the Reps are socialists. Just one is more open about it. sincerely, Joshua Nieuwsma thansen@moscow.com wrote: Douglas Wilson stated: "The last presidential election where Americans had a real choice to go in one of two opposite directions occurred a long time before I was born." Please elaborate. Every federal presidential election in which I have participated since I was of voting age (and that has been several days ago) has clearly consisted of at least two choices (and in some cases three or more). In my opinion for presidential election results to truly reflect the peoples' choice is to eliminate the electoral college and base the outcome stricly on popular vote. In the event that a candidate does not attract the majority vote (defined as 50% plus one), there should be a runoff between the top two candidates. It is clearly that simple. Any other thoughts? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1908155551-1058375963=:1912 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
some thoughts:
Having a purely majority vote election would split the country. It's already becoming divided, but in my opinion choosing a leader based solely upon 50.0001% of the votes is crazy. At least right now, with the electoral college, we have a system to blame when someone gets voted in with less than the majority of the citizens votes. An entity is alot less personal than the guy down the street who we have enmity against, if it is a hotly contested election, because he voted for the other guy that got in instead of our 49.9999% guy. Simple majority is a great way to get people frustrated, upset, and eventually riotous. (Incidentally, it is also a dangerous basis for legislation.) The southern states were quite unhappy when Lincoln won the presidency without even a simple majority. He got something like 37%. But the electoral college put him in power.
And besides, no one likes runoffs. Isn't it best to avoid them? We don't live in anything remotely like an ideal state. Look at how hard it is for California to decide to replace their governor. How much worse to hold a second presidential election. It's just not feasible, in my opinion.
And Mr. Hansen, I think you missed Pastor Wilson's point. Two opposite directions (i.e. not facing same way) is not the same thing as two different choices. Both the Dems and the Reps are socialists. Just one is more open about it.
 
sincerely,
 
Joshua Nieuwsma

thansen@moscow.com wrote:
Douglas Wilson stated:

"The last presidential election where Americans had a real choice to go in one
of two opposite directions occurred a long time before I was born."

Please elaborate. Every federal presidential election in which I have
participated since I was of voting age (and that has been several days ago) has
clearly consisted of at least two choices (and in some cases three or more).

In my opinion for presidential election results to truly reflect the peoples'
choice is to eliminate the electoral college and base the outcome stricly on
popular vote. In the event that a candidate does not attract the majority vote
(defined as 50% plus one), there should be a runoff between the top two
candidates. It is clearly that simple.

Any other thoughts?

Tom Hansen
Moscow,
Idaho

---------------------------------------------
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http://www.fsr.net/


_____________________________________________________
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mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1908155551-1058375963=:1912-- From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Wed Jul 16 18:35:38 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:35:38 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FCF@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Visionaires - Mr. Nieuwsam's argument doesn't hold water (let alone the hot air that is intended). A majority candidate is always preferred. Last time I checked 50.000000000000001% is larger than 49.99999999999999999999999% and reflects a majority. To maintain the electoral college just so we would have something to blame when elections go "wrong" is beyond stupidity. Mr. Niewsma stated: "And Mr. Hansen, I think you missed Pastor Wilson's point. Two opposite directions (i.e. not facing same way) is not the same thing as two different choices. Both the Dems and the Reps are socialists. Just one is more open about it." As it should be. The current two-party system is the result of over 200 years of political evolution within the United States. One way to develope a viable third party is to create one that a large percentage of the people support not only with ballots but with money. For your information, independent candidates (candidates not affiliated with any political party) have been elected as state governors, US Representatives, and US Senators. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:19 AM To: vision Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections some thoughts: Having a purely majority vote election would split the country. It's already becoming divided, but in my opinion choosing a leader based solely upon 50.0001% of the votes is crazy. At least right now, with the electoral college, we have a system to blame when someone gets voted in with less than the majority of the citizens votes. An entity is alot less personal than the guy down the street who we have enmity against, if it is a hotly contested election, because he voted for the other guy that got in instead of our 49.9999% guy. Simple majority is a great way to get people frustrated, upset, and eventually riotous. (Incidentally, it is also a dangerous basis for legislation.) The southern states were quite unhappy when Lincoln won the presidency without even a simple majority. He got something like 37%. But the electoral college put him in power. And besides, no one likes runoffs. Isn't it best to avoid them? We don't live in anything remotely like an ideal state. Look at how hard it is for California to decide to replace their governor. How much worse to hold a second presidential election. It's just not feasible, in my opinion. And Mr. Hansen, I think you missed Pastor Wilson's point. Two opposite directions (i.e. not facing same way) is not the same thing as two different choices. Both the Dems and the Reps are socialists. Just one is more open about it. sincerely, Joshua Nieuwsma thansen@moscow.com wrote: Douglas Wilson stated: "The last presidential election where Americans had a real choice to go in one of two opposite directions occurred a long time before I was born." Please elaborate. Every federal presidential election in which I have participated since I was of voting age (and that has been several days ago) has clearly consisted of at least two choices (and in some cases three or more). In my opinion for presidential election results to truly reflect the peoples' choice is to eliminate the electoral college and base the outcome stricly on popular vote. In the event that a candidate does not attract the majority vote (defined as 50% plus one), there should be a runoff between the top two candidates. It is clearly that simple. Any other thoughts? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 18:49:04 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:49:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] i'm wondering Message-ID: I concur with Tom on this. It's reached the point that no matter who the poster, or how innocent the posting, Mr. Stambler looks for a way to attack the individual who generated the message. Janesta Sullivan was merely joining in on a relevant discussion, and noted the kind availability of the restrooms in "the old GTE building." Mr. Stambler has an obvious problem with a certain faction in Moscow. I'm not a member of that particular subculture of our town, either, though I know and like people who are, despite a few philosophical differences. And if I need to use the restroom at the Farmer's Market, I'm not overly concerned with the political or religious leanings of the facilities. I join Janesta in saying thanks. Carl Westberg Jr. >From: Thomas Hansen >To: "'Douglas Stambler'" , jsullivan@moscow.com, >vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] i'm wondering >Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:15:58 -0700 > >Mr. Stambler - > >I have laughed at alot of your previous postings, but this one is clearly >insulting. Your ramblings are now aimed (with venom) toward specific V2020 >subscribers for no other purpose than to show your absolute ignorance and >lack of concern for human decency. > >Realizing that you have every right to post your ill-conceived opinions on >this forum, I am seriously considering my right to unsubscribe to what was >at one time a very constructive resource in expanding my knowledge of this >region and its people. > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > >-----Original Message----- >From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:ccm_moscow@yahoo.com] >Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:04 AM >To: jsullivan@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] i'm wondering > > >hello, ms. sullivan: > >i'm wondering if they breed losers at the "old GTE building," or if just a >bunch of losers hang out there. i thought that since you know so much >about >their bathrooms, you might be able to tell the forum more of what goes on >inside the "old GTE building." > >In Christ, >Douglas Stambler >(moscow) > > > > _____ > >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC >bc/> Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From escape@alt-escape.com Wed Jul 16 18:55:51 2003 From: escape@alt-escape.com (Bob Hoffmann) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:55:51 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections In-Reply-To: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FCF@daffy.dfm.uidaho.ed u> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716104329.020c2710@mail.turbonet.com> Yet our government frequently allows not majority winners, but plurality winners (under 50%, but over any other opponent). This is not permissible in most modern democracies. The parliamentary system requires coalitions in case no party would achieve 50%, and this can commonly result in governments with 75% support from the population (i.e., 75% of the people voted for at least one of the parties in power). Power in the government is split according to strength at the polls and party interests. So a 49% party would hold much more power than its 5% coalition partner. If that 5% partner is the Green party, then that party would likely get to choose the Secretary of the Interior or such, but not much more. This is very appealing to voters with strong interests in specific agendas. If two coalition partners each had 30%, power would be much more evenly shared. Again, that adds up to 60% buy-in from the voters. Skin-of-the-teeth majorities in parliamentary coalitions are not frequent. Our nation is an early experiment in democracy. While we've improved enfranchisement, we haven't done much to improve the other aspects of the system. Bob 10:35 AM 7/16/2003 -0700, Thomas Hansen wrote: >Visionaires - > >Mr. Nieuwsam's argument doesn't hold water (let alone the hot air that is >intended). A majority candidate is always preferred. Last time I checked >50.000000000000001% is larger than 49.99999999999999999999999% and reflects >a majority. To maintain the electoral college just so we would have >something to blame when elections go "wrong" is beyond stupidity. > >Mr. Niewsma stated: > >"And Mr. Hansen, I think you missed Pastor Wilson's point. Two opposite >directions (i.e. not facing same way) is not the same thing as two different >choices. Both the Dems and the Reps are socialists. Just one is more open >about it." > >As it should be. The current two-party system is the result of over 200 >years of political evolution within the United States. One way to develope >a viable third party is to create one that a large percentage of the people >support not only with ballots but with money. > >For your information, independent candidates (candidates not affiliated with >any political party) have been elected as state governors, US >Representatives, and US Senators. > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com] >Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:19 AM >To: vision >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections > > >some thoughts: >Having a purely majority vote election would split the country. It's already >becoming divided, but in my opinion choosing a leader based solely upon >50.0001% of the votes is crazy. At least right now, with the electoral >college, we have a system to blame when someone gets voted in with less than >the majority of the citizens votes. An entity is alot less personal than the >guy down the street who we have enmity against, if it is a hotly contested >election, because he voted for the other guy that got in instead of our >49.9999% guy. Simple majority is a great way to get people frustrated, >upset, and eventually riotous. (Incidentally, it is also a dangerous basis >for legislation.) The southern states were quite unhappy when Lincoln won >the presidency without even a simple majority. He got something like 37%. >But the electoral college put him in power. >And besides, no one likes runoffs. Isn't it best to avoid them? We don't >live in anything remotely like an ideal state. Look at how hard it is for >California to decide to replace their governor. How much worse to hold a >second presidential election. It's just not feasible, in my opinion. >And Mr. Hansen, I think you missed Pastor Wilson's point. Two opposite >directions (i.e. not facing same way) is not the same thing as two different >choices. Both the Dems and the Reps are socialists. Just one is more open >about it. > >sincerely, > >Joshua Nieuwsma > >thansen@moscow.com wrote: >Douglas Wilson stated: > >"The last presidential election where Americans had a real choice to go in >one >of two opposite directions occurred a long time before I was born." > >Please elaborate. Every federal presidential election in which I have >participated since I was of voting age (and that has been several days ago) >has >clearly consisted of at least two choices (and in some cases three or more). > >In my opinion for presidential election results to truly reflect the >peoples' >choice is to eliminate the electoral college and base the outcome stricly on > >popular vote. In the event that a candidate does not attract the majority >vote >(defined as 50% plus one), there should be a runoff between the top two >candidates. It is clearly that simple. > >Any other thoughts? > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, >Idaho > >--------------------------------------------- >This message was sent by First Step Internet. >http://www.fsr.net/ > > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, >serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >http://www.fsr.net >mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 From joshuahendrik@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 18:58:09 2003 From: joshuahendrik@yahoo.com (Joshua Nieuwsma) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections In-Reply-To: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FCF@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <20030716175809.95354.qmail@web41015.mail.yahoo.com> --0-118744767-1058378289=:93681 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A simple majority candidate is a bad idea and makes for bad politics. And who says that they are preferred? Only the people who are on the simple majority side. Those in the minority, however huge it might be, are generally not happy with the events. Even in small situations, like school student body elections, close elections cause bad feelings among the students. The same in individual classrooms. So expand it to a national level, and you have big trouble. That's how you get assassinations and military states. Not everyone is as willing to accept a 49.99% defeat as you might be, Mr. Hansen. And some people are willing to fight over it, on both sides. That's my point. It's not a good idea. I don't like the electoral college either, but I do think that it has served as a scapegoat in several close elections in our nations history. I am arguing that the concept of simple majority is misplaced and misapplied in politics. It is a very dangerous way to decide national issues and! leaders. By the way, Mr. Hansen, most of the original founders of the united States were against party politics, knowing that they are 1) divisive, 2) threatening to freedom and liberty, 3) a horrible way to elect reps (i.e. the average "republican" or "democrat" will vote party line regardless of beliefs or morals). George Washington, in his farewell address, as I recall, or in a similar address, warned against them. But parties and cliques being human nature, they arose anyhow. And have caused problems ever since. out for today, Joshua Nieuwsma Thomas Hansen wrote: Visionaires - Mr. Nieuwsam's argument doesn't hold water (let alone the hot air that is intended). A majority candidate is always preferred. Last time I checked 50.000000000000001% is larger than 49.99999999999999999999999% and reflects a majority. To maintain the electoral college just so we would have something to blame when elections go "wrong" is beyond stupidity. Mr. Niewsma stated: "And Mr. Hansen, I think you missed Pastor Wilson's point. Two opposite directions (i.e. not facing same way) is not the same thing as two different choices. Both the Dems and the Reps are socialists. Just one is more open about it." As it should be. The current two-party system is the result of over 200 years of political evolution within the United States. One way to develope a viable third party is to create one that a large percentage of the people support not only with ballots but with money. For your information, independent candidates (candidates not affiliated with any political party) have been elected as state governors, US Representatives, and US Senators. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-118744767-1058378289=:93681 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
A simple majority candidate is a bad idea and makes for bad politics. And who says that they are preferred? Only the people who are on the simple majority side. Those in the minority, however huge it might be, are generally not happy with the events. Even in small situations, like school student body elections, close elections cause bad feelings among the students. The same in individual classrooms. So expand it to a national level, and you have big trouble. That's how you get assassinations and military states. Not everyone is as willing to accept a 49.99% defeat as you might be, Mr. Hansen. And some people are willing to fight over it, on both sides. That's my point. It's not a good idea. I don't like the electoral college either, but I do think that it has served as a scapegoat in several close elections in our nations history. I am arguing that the concept of simple majority is misplaced and misapplied in politics. It is a very dangerous way&! nbsp;to decide national issues and leaders.
 
By the way, Mr. Hansen, most of the original founders of the united States were against party politics, knowing that they are 1) divisive, 2) threatening to freedom and liberty, 3) a horrible way to elect reps (i.e. the average "republican" or "democrat" will vote party line regardless of beliefs or morals). George Washington, in his farewell address, as I recall, or in a similar address, warned against them. But parties and cliques being human nature, they arose anyhow. And have caused problems ever since.
 
out for today,
 
Joshua Nieuwsma

Thomas Hansen <tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu> wrote:
Visionaires -

Mr. Nieuwsam's argument doesn't hold water (let alone the hot air that is
intended). A majority candidate is always preferred. Last time I checked
50.000000000000001% is larger than 49.99999999999999999999999% and reflects
a majority. To maintain the electoral college just so we would have
something to blame when elections go "wrong" is beyond stupidity.

Mr. Niewsma stated:

"And Mr. Hansen, I think you missed Pastor Wilson's point. Two opposite
directions (i.e. not facing same way) is not the same thing as two different
choices. Both the Dems and the Reps are socialists. Just one is more open
about it."

As it should be. The current two-party system is the result of over 200
years of political evolution within the United States. One way to develope
a viable third party is to create one that a large percentage of the people
support not only with ballots but with money.

For your information, ind! ependent candidates (candidates not affiliated with
any political party) have been elected as state governors, US
Representatives, and US Senators.

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-118744767-1058378289=:93681-- From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Wed Jul 16 19:02:48 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:02:48 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FD0@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> I have always been a supporter of the parliamentary system. In my opinion it more closely mirrors the feelings, attitudes, and desires of the people. Another option I like that is available in England that will never see the light of day in the nifty fifty (USA): When an oppossing party feels that they possess sufficient popularity to win an election, an election is created. There is no four year "lock-in". Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: Bob Hoffmann [mailto:escape@alt-escape.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:56 AM To: vision Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections Yet our government frequently allows not majority winners, but plurality winners (under 50%, but over any other opponent). This is not permissible in most modern democracies. The parliamentary system requires coalitions in case no party would achieve 50%, and this can commonly result in governments with 75% support from the population (i.e., 75% of the people voted for at least one of the parties in power). Power in the government is split according to strength at the polls and party interests. So a 49% party would hold much more power than its 5% coalition partner. If that 5% partner is the Green party, then that party would likely get to choose the Secretary of the Interior or such, but not much more. This is very appealing to voters with strong interests in specific agendas. If two coalition partners each had 30%, power would be much more evenly shared. Again, that adds up to 60% buy-in from the voters. Skin-of-the-teeth majorities in parliamentary coalitions are not frequent. Our nation is an early experiment in democracy. While we've improved enfranchisement, we haven't done much to improve the other aspects of the system. Bob 10:35 AM 7/16/2003 -0700, Thomas Hansen wrote: >Visionaires - > >Mr. Nieuwsam's argument doesn't hold water (let alone the hot air that is >intended). A majority candidate is always preferred. Last time I checked >50.000000000000001% is larger than 49.99999999999999999999999% and reflects >a majority. To maintain the electoral college just so we would have >something to blame when elections go "wrong" is beyond stupidity. > >Mr. Niewsma stated: > >"And Mr. Hansen, I think you missed Pastor Wilson's point. Two opposite >directions (i.e. not facing same way) is not the same thing as two different >choices. Both the Dems and the Reps are socialists. Just one is more open >about it." > >As it should be. The current two-party system is the result of over 200 >years of political evolution within the United States. One way to develope >a viable third party is to create one that a large percentage of the people >support not only with ballots but with money. > >For your information, independent candidates (candidates not affiliated with >any political party) have been elected as state governors, US >Representatives, and US Senators. > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com] >Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:19 AM >To: vision >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections > > >some thoughts: >Having a purely majority vote election would split the country. It's already >becoming divided, but in my opinion choosing a leader based solely upon >50.0001% of the votes is crazy. At least right now, with the electoral >college, we have a system to blame when someone gets voted in with less than >the majority of the citizens votes. An entity is alot less personal than the >guy down the street who we have enmity against, if it is a hotly contested >election, because he voted for the other guy that got in instead of our >49.9999% guy. Simple majority is a great way to get people frustrated, >upset, and eventually riotous. (Incidentally, it is also a dangerous basis >for legislation.) The southern states were quite unhappy when Lincoln won >the presidency without even a simple majority. He got something like 37%. >But the electoral college put him in power. >And besides, no one likes runoffs. Isn't it best to avoid them? We don't >live in anything remotely like an ideal state. Look at how hard it is for >California to decide to replace their governor. How much worse to hold a >second presidential election. It's just not feasible, in my opinion. >And Mr. Hansen, I think you missed Pastor Wilson's point. Two opposite >directions (i.e. not facing same way) is not the same thing as two different >choices. Both the Dems and the Reps are socialists. Just one is more open >about it. > >sincerely, > >Joshua Nieuwsma > >thansen@moscow.com wrote: >Douglas Wilson stated: > >"The last presidential election where Americans had a real choice to go in >one >of two opposite directions occurred a long time before I was born." > >Please elaborate. Every federal presidential election in which I have >participated since I was of voting age (and that has been several days ago) >has >clearly consisted of at least two choices (and in some cases three or more). > >In my opinion for presidential election results to truly reflect the >peoples' >choice is to eliminate the electoral college and base the outcome stricly on > >popular vote. In the event that a candidate does not attract the majority >vote >(defined as 50% plus one), there should be a runoff between the top two >candidates. It is clearly that simple. > >Any other thoughts? > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, >Idaho > >--------------------------------------------- >This message was sent by First Step Internet. >http://www.fsr.net/ > > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, >serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >http://www.fsr.net >mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 19:04:57 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] what westerberg and hansen overlook, i cannot In-Reply-To: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FCE@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <20030716180457.46970.qmail@web80604.mail.yahoo.com> --0-2146311078-1058378697=:46509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii well, carl and tom: if Christ Church were actually a benefit to this community, then we would have known about that facet of it long ago. Christ Church is a cult. they moved into the friendship square area to bug people even more (at least i stay away when people don't want to hear my stuff at a function like the forum picnic). didn't you read the editorial in the paper about zume and how Christ Church is getting in people's faces in the downtown area? that wasn't my editorial. so now there's eric's cafe at the mall, greenfield's coffee, bucer's and zume - the chamber of commerce is run by a Christ Church member, and NuArt Theater is all but Christ Church's. oh yeah, and so is redhawk crossing on 6th street. Christ Church has an agenda regarding being a prominent physical presence in town. why don't they admit what they're up to? i'll tell you why: because their pastor is anti-Mormon, anti-African American, anti-homosexual. Christ Church is saved through the GRACE of Doug Wilson! and that's what their sect of Satanism is all about. all saved through pastor wilson. don't continue turning your heads to the evil that comes out of Christ Church, New Saint Andrews, and every other feebly disguised educational-related or pseudo-Christian organization that is behind-the-scenes affiliated with dou! g wilson. any quick look in the local phone book will demonstrate that Christ Church is like an octopus in moscow, and tries to disguise that fact. WHY? because the motives are evil. you tolerate doug wilson on this forum: i do not. i'm telling you that this man is evil, and i will not change my mind, no matter what he contrives about me. i express my opinions here in a virtual manner, but as has been expressed before in this town - Christ Church has plans to take over Moscow - and i for one, will continue to speak out about it. again, i will stand up against the Satanic cult, called Christ Church of Moscow. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (moscow) Thomas Hansen wrote: Mr. Stambler - I have laughed at alot of your previous postings, but this one is clearly insulting. Your ramblings are now aimed (with venom) toward specific V2020 subscribers for no other purpose than to show your absolute ignorance and lack of concern for human decency. Realizing that you have every right to post your ill-conceived opinions on this forum, I am seriously considering my right to unsubscribe to what was at one time a very constructive resource in expanding my knowledge of this region and its people. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:ccm_moscow@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:04 AM To: jsullivan@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] i'm wondering hello, ms. sullivan: i'm wondering if they breed losers at the "old GTE building," or if just a bunch of losers hang out there. i thought that since you know so much about their bathrooms, you might be able to tell the forum more of what goes on inside the "old GTE building." In Christ, Douglas Stambler (moscow) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2146311078-1058378697=:46509 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
well, carl and tom: if Christ Church were actually a benefit to this community, then we would have known about that facet of it long ago.  Christ Church is a cult.  they moved into the friendship square area to bug people even more (at least i stay away when people don't want to hear my stuff at a function like the forum picnic). 
 
didn't you read the editorial in the paper about zume and how Christ Church is getting in people's faces in the downtown area? that wasn't my editorial.  so now there's eric's cafe at the mall, greenfield's coffee, bucer's and zume - the chamber of commerce is run by a Christ Church member, and NuArt Theater is all but Christ Church's.  oh yeah, and so is redhawk crossing on 6th street.  Christ Church has an agenda regarding being a prominent physical presence in town.  why don't they admit what they're up to?  i'll tell you why: because their pastor is anti-Mormon, anti-African American, anti-homosexual.  Christ Church is saved through the GRACE of Doug Wilson!  and that's what their sect of Satanism is all about.  all saved through pastor wilson.  don't continue turning your heads to the evil that comes out of Christ Church, New Saint Andrews, and every other feebly disguised educational-related or pseudo-Christian organization that is behind-the-scenes affiliated with doug wilson.  any quick look in the local phone book will demonstrate that Christ Church is like an octopus in moscow, and tries to disguise that fact.  WHY?  because the motives are evil.
 
you tolerate doug wilson on this forum: i do not.  i'm telling you that this man is evil, and i will not change my mind, no matter what he contrives about me.
 
i express my opinions here in a virtual manner, but as has been expressed before in this town - Christ Church has plans to take over Moscow - and i for one, will continue to speak out about it.
 
again, i will stand up against the Satanic cult, called Christ Church of Moscow.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(moscow)

Thomas Hansen <tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu> wrote:
Mr. Stambler -
 
I have laughed at alot of your previous postings, but this one is clearly insulting.  Your ramblings are now aimed (with venom) toward specific V2020 subscribers for no other purpose than to show your absolute ignorance and lack of concern for human decency.
 
Realizing that you have every right to post your ill-conceived opinions on this forum, I am seriously considering my right to unsubscribe to what was at one time a very constructive resource in expanding my knowledge of this region and its people.
 
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:ccm_moscow@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:04 AM
To: jsullivan@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] i'm wondering

hello, ms. sullivan:
 
i'm wondering if they breed losers at the "old GTE building," or if just a bunch of losers hang out there.  i thought that since you know so much about their bathrooms, you might be able to tell the forum more of what goes on inside the "old GTE building."
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(moscow)

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2146311078-1058378697=:46509-- From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Wed Jul 16 19:09:20 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:09:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FD1@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Mr. Nieuwsma stated: "A simple majority candidate is a bad idea and makes for bad politics. And who says that they are preferred? Only the people who are on the simple majority side. Those in the minority, however huge it might be, are generally not happy with the events." My suggestion, Mr. Nieuwsma: Don't wait for the movie. Read the book. It is titled "The Constitution of the United States of America". Candidates with the most votes win. Programs that garner the most "yes" votes are enacted. End of discussion. I do believe that this discussion is seriously becoming ludicrous. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:58 AM To: vision Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections A simple majority candidate is a bad idea and makes for bad politics. And who says that they are preferred? Only the people who are on the simple majority side. Those in the minority, however huge it might be, are generally not happy with the events. Even in small situations, like school student body elections, close elections cause bad feelings among the students. The same in individual classrooms. So expand it to a national level, and you have big trouble. That's how you get assassinations and military states. Not everyone is as willing to accept a 49.99% defeat as you might be, Mr. Hansen. And some people are willing to fight over it, on both sides. That's my point. It's not a good idea. I don't like the electoral college either, but I do think that it has served as a scapegoat in several close elections in our nations history. I am arguing that the concept of simple majority is misplaced and misapplied in politics. It is a very dangerous way&! nbsp;to decide national issues and leaders. By the way, Mr. Hansen, most of the original founders of the united States were against party politics, knowing that they are 1) divisive, 2) threatening to freedom and liberty, 3) a horrible way to elect reps (i.e. the average "republican" or "democrat" will vote party line regardless of beliefs or morals). George Washington, in his farewell address, as I recall, or in a similar address, warned against them. But parties and cliques being human nature, they arose anyhow. And have caused problems ever since. out for today, Joshua Nieuwsma Thomas Hansen wrote: Visionaires - Mr. Nieuwsam's argument doesn't hold water (let alone the hot air that is intended). A majority candidate is always preferred. Last time I checked 50.000000000000001% is larger than 49.99999999999999999999999% and reflects a majority. To maintain the electoral college just so we would have something to blame when elections go "wrong" is beyond stupidity. Mr. Niewsma stated: "And Mr. Hansen, I think you missed Pastor Wilson's point. Two opposite directions (i.e. not facing same way) is not the same thing as two different choices. Both the Dems and the Reps are socialists. Just one is more open about it." As it should be. The current two-party system is the result of over 200 years of political evolution within the United States. One way to develope a viable third party is to create one that a large percentage of the people support not only with ballots but with money. For your information, ind! ependent candidates (candidates not affiliated with any political party) have been elected as state governors, US Representatives, and US Senators. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 19:13:14 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Fictional Story: "She Lives In Idaho" Message-ID: <20030716181314.5235.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> --0-2051453965-1058379194=:4925 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii She Lives In Idaho by Douglas Stambler Boise was not the original capital of Idaho. Actually, it was Lewiston. But some fools ran off with the important documents, and now Boise is the capital. And that’s where she lives, in Boise, Idaho. She had a long neck and slender hands. You never saw anyone like that in Boise. But there she was, doing her thing, living her life, having a little more patience than the rest of us, to finish everything she wanted to do. She wanted to live in Idaho, and so, she, lived, in Idaho. It was all that simple for her. She thought it - she did it. There wasn’t anything to plan about it. Idaho was more about place names than anything else. Everyone had a place, and everyone had a name. People in Nevada didn’t like that people in Idaho had places and names, too. You see, in Nevada, people chose to be nameless and always on the move. Idaho was nothing like Nevada: pretty, green and friendly. Nevada was nothing like Idaho: stable, traditional, real. All in all, Idaho was alive and livable: Nevada was dead and uninhabitable. But the story is already detailed enough. Let’s get back to the story line. Natalie came from a foster home in Pasco, Washington. Her mother was from the Yakima tribe and her father was a coal miner from Pocatello, Idaho. If ever two ways could never meet, Natalie’s parents had been anyone’s fantasy for least-likely ethnic couple. But those were just her foster parents. Natalie’s skin was dark brown, an impossible color to get from either of her foster parents. And one of the worst colors for her to be in the State of Idaho. You couldn’t pick a worse color to be in Idaho than brown. And why she chose to live there was already dumbfounding to all her friends and relatives, who had left for greener pastures, years ago. And yet she stayed: Like Lewiston, waiting to be named the capital, as soon as Boise got tired of always being right. * * * Part I: Natalie Before Married Life Oh, she was quite the undisguised: always searching into things a lot more than they needed to be. She worked an overnight shift at the J.R. Simplot frozen vegetable packaging and processing plant. It was about thirty minutes from where she lived. And if that wasn’t too far, then she guessed neither was working the graveyard shift too hard. She had a good work ethic, but she was not prepared for those changes that marriage brings: the uplifted disposition; a flurry of new friends; peace-making with her brothers and sisters. She wasn’t ready, so she wasn’t looking. And she had no idea that her husband was not totally convinced that after all, she was still a colored person. But where else do they say colored but in 1960s documentaries? She was living a colorless existence. But then again, no one ever saw her during the day, because she was sleeping through the days all the way to evening again. And then she went to work: brown-skinned and unafraid. Even if the nazis marched i! n Coeur d’Alene, it didn’t capsize her total self-control: she was afloat, and then she met Marty. Marty was an intern with county government. He checked the books, and later he wrote the checks. He made it up as he went along. He figured that if the city could do it, so could he. Gifted but troubled by his loneliness, Marty wandered aimlessly through his career: as if all people ever did was follow directions from other people. "Happiness was mine and no one else’s." He turned a lot of people off. But for the curiosity shown to him by Natalie when they first met, his personal philosophy that he was the only one entitled to happiness, somehow made him endearing to others. And so, they were engaged. Part II: The Idaho Potato Late one night at the Winco Supermarket, seven potatoes leapt from their bag, and spilled onto the plainly tiled supermarket floor. The Idaho Potato: colorless and unafraid. Who could be the best potato in the whole state? Would it be the potato with the least bumps? Or would the spud with the least mud prevail? If all was well at the University of Idaho that year, then there would be a multitude of spuds, nay, a plurality of spuds! Spuds of every race, creed and color. Spuds from yellow buds; spuds from big old buds; spuds from Heaven! A true, Idaho harvest of the funnest spuds ever to push through the murky ground. Winco’s front doors opened, and out jumped a spud! A large, older spud with a lot of personality, leapt up into the air and landed right on someone’s radio antenna, on their car, in the parking lot. "WSPUD! All Idaho potatoes, twenty-four and seven days of the week! You want color? I give you Spuds McGraw, color commentator from the rolling hills of the Palouse Country! That’s right, Pah-louse. It means POTATO in Indian language. Uh-hunh." The other six potatoes roll into the near empty parking lot, while the head spud broadcasts from the antenna of a Ford 350, sitting there in a parking space, wearing a stolen headlight. "Like a bridge over truh-uh-bled wa-ters…" Strains of Simon and Garfunkel end up fighting like twin rivals, instead of the popular spuds they really are. When you mash an Idaho potato, they is all the same color! Part III: Homesteaders In Challis It has been said of Challis that all the homesteaders there were bumped over from Montana: That’s good country. Swollen with mountains, but good country in less time. Idaho took forever to build! But Montana just surfaced. Try going to Challis some time, and see for yourself. There’s an old lady, been born in Challis, raised up nine children without a washer and dryer. Now there’s Quentin Tarantino and some tight-shirt rapper, but there used to be old granny over here, now just a wax statue in the "Challis, Idaho Historical Wax Museum." But you know the homesteaders? Right? They came to Challis with purpose, with vision. They came, because they had to. They came, because they were the original homesteaders. They were not like burned-out, first generation Californians in Boise, trying to find an Albertson’s with less than 9 people in the checkout line! Boy, granny could really split that wood. I wonder how she learned to do that. How come she got all those Shoshone/Bannock skulls, all piled up in her dining room closet? Because, she was an original homesteader in Challis. And homesteaders rule, baby, rule! No one gonna beat granny with a stick! She 80 years old, and ready to die. Don’t bury the past. Just build on top of it, maybe no one will notice. Maybe we can make the books forget who was here first: I think you call them Native Americans. And who cares, anyway? We got highways. We got a governor named Dirk. We goin’ places. We gonna be famous, granny! And we gonna win, cuz we love to win. Ida-shmo. Help me tell the difference between kindness and necessity. How much love can you fit in the State of Idaho? A whole bunch of love. Let’s start filling Idaho with love, sweet love. * * * Natalie’s done for today. She packages some mixed vegetables, removes her latex gloves and heads into the Boise dawn. The city is still quiet. Natalie gets in her car, and drives home to Marty, who is sleeping and dreaming of Chief Joseph. She locks the door behind her, once home, and falls asleep next to Marty. She whispers to him in a long-ago lost language of Native Americans. He dreams of Joseph; she chants in Nez Perce. And she lives in Idaho. It breathes her. She doesn’t even associate too many things with the state, but Idaho breathes Natalie, like a puppy on a first walk: Like a metaphor short of syllables, but long and groaning - like a history book with multiple choice answers to questions they talk only about at pow-wows in the woods. And so I dream of Idaho, too, like it will be, once was, and again it can. Will overthrow the time lost and surrendered to highways and stolen documents. Even if it’s just a mention of the justice of the land to a man named Joseph on! the street in Moscow, Idaho - where Joseph is not there, but also bigger than the town in spirit. She lives in Idaho, and Idaho lives no more. * * * --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2051453965-1058379194=:4925 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii She Lives In Idaho
by Douglas Stambler


Boise was not the original capital of Idaho. Actually, it was Lewiston. But some fools ran off with the important documents, and now Boise is the capital. And that’s where she lives, in Boise, Idaho. She had a long neck and slender hands. You never saw anyone like that in Boise. But there she was, doing her thing, living her life, having a little more patience than the rest of us, to finish everything she wanted to do. She wanted to live in Idaho, and so, she, lived, in Idaho. It was all that simple for her. She thought it - she did it. There wasn’t anything to plan about it.

Idaho was more about place names than anything else. Everyone had a place, and everyone had a name. People in Nevada didn’t like that people in Idaho had places and names, too. You see, in Nevada, people chose to be nameless and always on the move. Idaho was nothing like Nevada: pretty, green and friendly. Nevada was nothing ! like Idaho: stable, traditional, real. All in all, Idaho was alive and livable: Nevada was dead and uninhabitable. But the story is already detailed enough. Let’s get back to the story line.

Natalie came from a foster home in Pasco, Washington. Her mother was from the Yakima tribe and her father was a coal miner from Pocatello, Idaho. If ever two ways could never meet, Natalie’s parents had been anyone’s fantasy for least-likely ethnic couple. But those were just her foster parents. Natalie’s skin was dark brown, an impossible color to get from either of her foster parents. And one of the worst colors for her to be in the State of Idaho. You couldn’t pick a worse color to be in Idaho than brown. And why she chose to live there was already dumbfounding to all her friends and relatives, who had left for greener pastures, years ago. And yet she stayed: Like Lewiston, waiting to be named the capital, as soon as Boise got tired of always being right.

* * *

P! art I: Natalie Before Married Life

Oh, she was quite the undisguised: always searching into things a lot more than they needed to be. She worked an overnight shift at the J.R. Simplot frozen vegetable packaging and processing plant. It was about thirty minutes from where she lived. And if that wasn’t too far, then she guessed neither was working the graveyard shift too hard. She had a good work ethic, but she was not prepared for those changes that marriage brings: the uplifted disposition; a flurry of new friends; peace-making with her brothers and sisters. She wasn’t ready, so she wasn’t looking. And she had no idea that her husband was not totally convinced that after all, she was still a colored person. But where else do they say colored but in 1960s documentaries? She was living a colorless existence. But then again, no one ever saw her during the day, because she was sleeping through the days all the way to evening again. And then she went to work: brown-skinned ! and unafraid. Even if the nazis marched in Coeur d’Alene, it didn’t capsize her total self-control: she was afloat, and then she met Marty.

Marty was an intern with county government. He checked the books, and later he wrote the checks. He made it up as he went along. He figured that if the city could do it, so could he. Gifted but troubled by his loneliness, Marty wandered aimlessly through his career: as if all people ever did was follow directions from other people. "Happiness was mine and no one else’s." He turned a lot of people off. But for the curiosity shown to him by Natalie when they first met, his personal philosophy that he was the only one entitled to happiness, somehow made him endearing to others. And so, they were engaged.

Part II: The Idaho Potato

Late one night at the Winco Supermarket, seven potatoes leapt from their bag, and spilled onto the plainly tiled supermarket floor. The Idaho Potato: colorless and unafraid. Who could be ! the best potato in the whole state? Would it be the potato with the least bumps? Or would the spud with the least mud prevail? If all was well at the University of Idaho that year, then there would be a multitude of spuds, nay, a plurality of spuds! Spuds of every race, creed and color. Spuds from yellow buds; spuds from big old buds; spuds from Heaven! A true, Idaho harvest of the funnest spuds ever to push through the murky ground.

Winco’s front doors opened, and out jumped a spud! A large, older spud with a lot of personality, leapt up into the air and landed right on someone’s radio antenna, on their car, in the parking lot. "WSPUD! All Idaho potatoes, twenty-four and seven days of the week! You want color? I give you Spuds McGraw, color commentator from the rolling hills of the Palouse Country! That’s right, Pah-louse. It means POTATO in Indian language. Uh-hunh." The other six potatoes roll into the near empty parking lot, while the head spud broadcasts from the antenna! of a Ford 350, sitting there in a parking space, wearing a stolen headlight.

"Like a bridge over truh-uh-bled wa-ters…" Strains of Simon and Garfunkel end up fighting like twin rivals, instead of the popular spuds they really are.

When you mash an Idaho potato, they is all the same color!

Part III: Homesteaders In Challis

It has been said of Challis that all the homesteaders there were bumped over from Montana: That’s good country. Swollen with mountains, but good country in less time. Idaho took forever to build! But Montana just surfaced. Try going to Challis some time, and see for yourself. There’s an old lady, been born in Challis, raised up nine children without a washer and dryer. Now there’s Quentin Tarantino and some tight-shirt rapper, but there used to be old granny over here, now just a wax statue in the "Challis, Idaho Historical Wax Museum." But you know the homesteaders? Right? They came to Challis with purpose, with vision. The! y came, because they had to. They came, because they were the original homesteaders. They were not like burned-out, first generation Californians in Boise, trying to find an Albertson’s with less than 9 people in the checkout line!

Boy, granny could really split that wood. I wonder how she learned to do that. How come she got all those Shoshone/Bannock skulls, all piled up in her dining room closet? Because, she was an original homesteader in Challis. And homesteaders rule, baby, rule! No one gonna beat granny with a stick! She 80 years old, and ready to die. Don’t bury the past. Just build on top of it, maybe no one will notice. Maybe we can make the books forget who was here first: I think you call them Native Americans. And who cares, anyway? We got highways. We got a governor named Dirk. We goin’ places. We gonna be famous, granny! And we gonna win, cuz we love to win.

Ida-shmo. Help me tell the difference between kindness and necessity. How much love can you fit ! in the State of Idaho?

A whole bunch of love.

Let’s start filling Idaho with love, sweet love.

* * *

Natalie’s done for today. She packages some mixed vegetables, removes her latex gloves and heads into the Boise dawn. The city is still quiet. Natalie gets in her car, and drives home to Marty, who is sleeping and dreaming of Chief Joseph. She locks the door behind her, once home, and falls asleep next to Marty. She whispers to him in a long-ago lost language of Native Americans. He dreams of Joseph; she chants in Nez Perce. And she lives in Idaho. It breathes her. She doesn’t even associate too many things with the state, but Idaho breathes Natalie, like a puppy on a first walk: Like a metaphor short of syllables, but long and groaning - like a history book with multiple choice answers to questions they talk only about at pow-wows in the woods. And so I dream of Idaho, too, like it will be, once was, and again it can. Will overthrow the time lost and surrendered to highways and stolen documents. Even if it’s just a mention of the justice of the land to a man named Joseph on the street in Moscow, Idaho - where Joseph is not there, but also bigger than the town in spirit. She lives in Idaho, and Idaho lives no more.

* * *

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2051453965-1058379194=:4925-- From timlohr@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 19:20:28 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: Sexual harassment=sex Message-ID: <20030716182028.55306.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, It's amazing really. Almost everyone who commented on my posts are in such denial that their blow dried slick willie could have been not exactly respectful of women. Bob Hoffman's and Joan Opyr's last posts were good examples. So for one last time, Folks, when Bill committed perjury, he was NOT LYING ABOUT SEX or being a serial adulterer he was lying in a deposition after he had been named as the defendant in a SEXUAL HARASSMENT SUIT. If you consider alleged sexual harassment(in this case the chief exec. officer of a state sending Ark State Troopers out to summon a young woman who was in the employ of that state up to his room and exposing himself demanding sexual gratification) as comparable to just another sexual encounter then your views on rights of women in the workplace may come from the nineties--but the nineties of the last century. That's why I brought this up. To point out the complete lack of principle in both parties. And how it is often transferred to the knee-jerk defenders of them. IF a GOP Pres. had been named in a sexual harassment suit the supposedly feminist minded Democrat party and their feminist allies would have been enraged and sputtering into any available microphone about what a pig he was. BUT since he was who he was--linked to their own political futures--heard next to nothing from the demos and the feminists. Just as on this list, they said it was JUST ABOUT SEX. Principles in present day two party politics? As an elderly neighbor of mine used to "they ain't got na'arn!" Later, TL __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From jsullivan@moscow.com Wed Jul 16 19:26:32 2003 From: jsullivan@moscow.com (JSullivan) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:26:32 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] i'm wondering References: <20030716170417.98256.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000c01c34bc7$c89f3d00$2af2f5c7@Janestas> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C34B8D.1B99EBD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *digging around in the bottom of my very full purse, finally finding a = quarter... flips it over to you with a charming smile lighting my face* Catch it Doug! A quarter. Now why don't you go buy yourself a clue? Janesta Sullivan This is my first, last and only reply to you Doug. *smile* Any and all = mail I see from you in the future, I will use the lovely option of the = "delete" key. ----- Original Message ----From: Douglas Stambler=20 To: jsullivan@moscow.com ; vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:04 AM Subject: [Vision2020] i'm wondering hello, ms. sullivan: i'm wondering if they breed losers at the "old GTE building," or if = just a bunch of losers hang out there. i thought that since you know so = much about their bathrooms, you might be able to tell the forum more of = what goes on inside the "old GTE building." In Christ, Douglas Stambler (moscow) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C34B8D.1B99EBD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
*digging around in the bottom of my = very full=20 purse, finally finding a quarter... flips it over to you with a charming = smile=20 lighting my face*
 
Catch it Doug! A quarter. Now why = don't you go=20 buy yourself a clue?
 
Janesta Sullivan
 
This is my first, last and only reply = to you Doug.=20 *smile* Any and all mail I see from you in the future, I will use the = lovely=20 option of the "delete" key.
----- Original Message = ----From: Douglas=20 Stambler
To: jsullivan@moscow.com ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 = 10:04=20 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] i'm = wondering

hello, ms. sullivan:
 
i'm wondering if they breed losers at the "old GTE building," or = if just=20 a bunch of losers hang out there.  i thought that since you know = so much=20 about their bathrooms, you might be able to tell the forum more of = what goes=20 on inside the "old GTE building."
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(moscow)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC=20 Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C34B8D.1B99EBD0-- From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 19:27:36 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:27:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Farmer's Market, produce, and restrooms Message-ID: Speaking of the above 3 topics, I'm reminded of another old George Gobel line, this from the old Hollywood Squares. Peter Marshall to George Gobel: "Did you know a pea can last 5,000 years?" George Gobel: (sighing) "Sometimes it sure feels that way.." Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 19:30:11 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:30:11 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Stereotyping Message-ID: Douglas, et. al. Stereotyping people based on religion, politics, style of dress, race, nationality, sex, locale of residence, length of hair, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc., appears to be a nearly universal tendency in human beings. I suppose it makes life easier to quickly assume you mostly know what makes someone tick, based on a few salient characteristics, than to go through the sometimes difficult process of trying to discover how someone thinks and feels on every issue. Of course this generalizing "objectification" of the other, this deadening gaze which hardens the "other" in ideological stone, destroys the individual's freedom of consciousness, their potential to change, to be creative and unique. Being a "fundamentalist" Christian pastor, you must align yourself with the so called "Christian right wing" that backs W. Bush! We have you neatly wrapped and packaged in our stereotyped ideological box. Ted >From: Douglas >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial -- GUTLESS DEMOS >Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:56:28 -0700 > >Visionaries, > >Apologies to Tom for accidentally answering him publicly. My mistake -- >again. > >For the rest, it seems that you all have this unshakeable notion that I am >a Republican, and that I am trying to insinuate some oblique defenses of >the current regime. But the difference between Clinton and Bush is like the >difference between Nero and Vespasian. I am opposed to the Pax Americana, >whether it comes in the Republican light blue or the Democratic powder >blue. The last presidential election where Americans had a real choice to >go in one of two opposite directions occurred a long time before I was >born. I offer observations on the differences between Clinton and Bush as a >disinterested observer -- and not a defender of either. > >Douglas Wilson > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From jsullivan@moscow.com Wed Jul 16 19:36:01 2003 From: jsullivan@moscow.com (JSullivan) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:36:01 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] i'm wondering References: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FCE@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <002e01c34bc9$1c08bbf0$2af2f5c7@Janestas> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C34B8E.6F005D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for what you said, it is nice of you. However, don't = unsubscribe, just smile, shake your head, and ignore. That's what I do. = I am not insulted at all. I just consider the source. If someone = respected insulted me, I would probably have hurt feelings. *chuckling* = I am kind of sensitive that way. People like this only have control = over us, and our emotions when they get a reaction from us. No = reaction=3DNo control. Janesta Sullivan ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas Hansen=20 To: 'Douglas Stambler' ; jsullivan@moscow.com ; vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:15 AM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] i'm wondering Mr. Stambler - I have laughed at alot of your previous postings, but this one is = clearly insulting. Your ramblings are now aimed (with venom) toward = specific V2020 subscribers for no other purpose than to show your = absolute ignorance and lack of concern for human decency. Realizing that you have every right to post your ill-conceived = opinions on this forum, I am seriously considering my right to = unsubscribe to what was at one time a very constructive resource in = expanding my knowledge of this region and its people. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:ccm_moscow@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:04 AM To: jsullivan@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] i'm wondering hello, ms. sullivan: i'm wondering if they breed losers at the "old GTE building," or if = just a bunch of losers hang out there. i thought that since you know so = much about their bathrooms, you might be able to tell the forum more of = what goes on inside the "old GTE building." In Christ, Douglas Stambler (moscow) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C34B8E.6F005D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you for what you said, it is nice = of you.=20 However, don't unsubscribe, just = smile, shake=20 your head, and ignore. That's what I do. I am not insulted at all. = I just=20 consider the source. If someone respected insulted me, I would probably = have=20 hurt feelings. *chuckling* I am kind of sensitive that way.  = People=20 like this only have control over us, and our emotions when they get a = reaction=20 from us. No reaction=3DNo control.
 
Janesta Sullivan
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Thomas=20 Hansen
To: 'Douglas Stambler' ; jsullivan@moscow.com ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 = 10:15=20 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] i'm=20 wondering

Mr.=20 Stambler -
 
I=20 have laughed at alot of your previous postings, but this one is = clearly=20 insulting.  Your ramblings are now aimed (with venom) toward = specific=20 V2020 subscribers for no other purpose than to show your absolute = ignorance=20 and lack of concern for human decency.
 
Realizing that you have every right to post your = ill-conceived opinions=20 on this forum, I am seriously considering my right to unsubscribe to = what was=20 at one time a very constructive resource in expanding my knowledge of = this=20 region and its people.
 
Tom=20 Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Stambler = [mailto:ccm_moscow@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, = 2003 10:04=20 AM
To: jsullivan@moscow.com;=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] i'm=20 wondering

hello, ms. sullivan:
 
i'm wondering if they breed losers at the "old GTE building," = or if=20 just a bunch of losers hang out there.  i thought that since = you know=20 so much about their bathrooms, you might be able to tell the forum = more of=20 what goes on inside the "old GTE building."
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(moscow)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC=20 Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!=20
------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C34B8E.6F005D80-- From timlohr@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 19:40:54 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS DEMOS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030716184054.99358.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Donavan, First of all you wrote: "When are you going to admit you were wrong for supporting that war? When are you going to admit we have a stupid president that is going kill everyone if he has another four years as president?" Well, Donovan, when are you going to stop assuming and stereotyping? I don't support this Iraqi invasion nor do I now or ever. I don't know if Bush is stupid, but I didn't vote for him originally and I don't intend to now. But your responses are interesting. You immediately assume that if someone questions the Democratic party they are hard core Republicans. That's how the two parties want you to think of courses. That's why these two parties, which are in reality nothing but two different conduits for cash from slightly different groups of interests, refuse to allow any real political dialogue by not allowing anyone but themselves in the presidential debates and etc. I disagree totally with you that a president should be allowed to get away with committing the crime of perjury, but I suppose that's the level we've sunk to. Even the chief law enforcement officer of the US should be allowed to be a criminal. At least the Arkansas State Bar saw fit to disbar the creep. And as I mentioned the original reason I even mentioned the sexual stuff was to illustrate the total lack of principle at the national political level. Your arguments show that this political justification of almost anything has sunk even down to the Moscow, ID level. Your sad swallowing whole the story about the factory in the Sudan is just more evidence of your apparent blind faith in whatever a Democrat says. Your version has no evidence to back it up. Even the State Dept. has admitted they made a mistake on that one. And also you state that in Iraq they switch from one kind of production to another rapidly. So, are you saying you do believe there are or probably have been dangerous weapons in Iraq, just like Bush told us? Hmm...confusing. --- Donovan Arnold wrote: > Tim wrote: > > "You don't get it yet, do you? He wasn't lying about > >a "sexual relationship" in the Jones matter. He was > >lying about committing an actionable > offense--sexual > >harassment. If you believe sexual harassment is > just > >another sexual relationship, then your thinking is > >behind even James Carville's." > > No, based on that statement you just don't > understand. Clinton lied about > his sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky while > under oath testifying about > the Paula Jones investigation. This is what is so > irrelevant about the case. > What does Monica have to do with Jones's case? > Nothing! They were trying to > use it as an established behavior. That is why the > "blue dress" came into > the picture. It was to prove that Clinton did have > relations "with that > women." > Second, No, I do not think that sexual harassment is > "just another sexual > relationship". But I also happen to think that > mutual consent is not sexual > harassment. I also don't think that people that > assume someone is "guilty" > just because they are accused of it should leave the > country because that is > not what this country is about. Clinton was found > "not guilty". Did the > Repubcraps let it go. No! > > "HAD Clinton been a Republican then we > >would have had the Democrat party and their > apologists > >doing everything in their power to convince us that > >the second type of "blown" was equal importance to > the > >BIG BANG! i.e. the end all/be all event without > which > >the universe would not exist." > > > Disagree, you were not around then. Playboy magazine > and several others dug > into the backgrounds of several other Republicans to > find out that in fact > they were or had been involved in extra martial > affairs as well. Actually, > quite a few of them. Helen Chenoweth, our US > representative at the time, > flat out said that Clinton should resign because of > his adulterous affairs. > Then two weeks later a man who had an affair with > her came forward and > reported his affair with her, evidence and all. Bob > Livingston, running for > speaker of the house, also had an affair and was > exposed, as well as the > leader in the effort of impeaching Clinton, Rep. > Henry Hyde. Were any of > these representatives charged with lying, under oath > they were under when > they were sworn in as elected officials? No, they > were not, they let it > slide. But not the Republicans they spent $23 > million dollars to find out > that Bill Clinton got a blow job and lied about it. > And nobody gave a damn! > And they shouldn't. When a poll was taken most men > said they would lie if > asked the same question under oath. > > > "Also, there's a very plausible theory that the SEX > >stuff DID lead to some folks getting blown up. How > >about Clinton lobbing cruise missiles at that > aspirin > >factory in the Sudan? Ever see Wag the Dog?" > > LOL, give me a break! That was a milk factory in > Sudan that was producing > chemical weapons. Often times many factories switch > from one form of > production to another in third words. Iraq does the > same thing. Further, > that story lasted about three days. Two Tomahawk > missiles were fired and > that was it. > > Yes, I have heard of Wag the Dog. And that is > exactly what the President > that was not elected by the people, like most > dictators in the world, is > doing in Iraq. We went there to A) Remove Saddam, B) > Remove Weapons of Mass > Destruction, C) Restore peace in the region. Which > one of these have we > accomplished? How many soldiers have died? How many > Iraqi civilians have > died? How many have been wounded? How many more will > die or be wounded? When > are you going to admit you were wrong for supporting > that war? When are you > going to admit we have a stupid president that is > going kill everyone if he > has another four years as president? > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > >To: Donovan Arnold > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium denial--GUTLESS > DEMOS? > >Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 12:59:59 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Donavan, > > You write: > >"I believe that Clinton did lie. I think he lied > under > >oath. I think what he did was wrong and unethical. > I > >also think that asking somebody about > >sexual relationships with someone when they are > under > >oath is more unethical unless it is a murder trial > >establishing a motive." > >----- > > You don't get it yet, do you? He wasn't lying > about > >a "sexual relationship" in the Jones matter. He was > >lying about committing an actionable > offense--sexual > >harassment. If you believe sexual harassment is > just > >another sexual relationship, then your thinking is > >behind even James Carville's. > > > >You also write: > >"Second, There is a big difference between someone > >lying about getting blown and someone lying and > 6,000 > >people getting blown up." > > > >I couldn't agree with you more on that. War is > worse > >than committing perjury every time. BUT, and this > is a > >very big but, HAD Clinton been a Republican then we > >would have had the Democrat party and their > apologists > >doing everything in their power to convince us that > >the second type of "blown" was equal importance to > the > >BIG BANG! i.e. the end all/be all event without > which > >the universe would not exist. > > > >> TL > > > > > > > >--- Donovan Arnold > wrote: > > > Tim, > > > > > > First, ever hear of the fifth amendment? Why > wasn't > > > that brought up? > > > Second, There is a big difference between > someone > > > lying about getting blown > > > and someone lying and 6,000 people getting blown > up. > > > > > > If you don't understand the difference between > the > > > two, then I don't know > > > how else to explain it to you. > > > > > > I believe that Clinton did lie. I think he lied > > > under oath. I think what he > > > did was wrong and unethical. I also think that > > > asking somebody about sexual > > > relationships with someone when they are under > oath > > > is more unethical unless > > > it is a murder trial establishing a motive. How > many > > > of 50%+ of married men > > > would lie about an affair. That is why nobody > cared. > > > And it is not an > > > impeachable offense. Spending $23 million to > > > investigate a president for the > > > sake of trying to find something is ludicrous > and > > > unethical when people are > > > starving. > > > > > > To answer your other question the order of > > > succession is: > > > Vice President > > > Speaker of the House > > > Senate Pro-tempore > > > Secretary of State > > > Secretary of Defense > > > Attorney General > > > Secretary of Treasury > > > Secretary of Interior > > > Secretary of Agriculture > > > Secretary of Commerce > > > Secretary of Labor > > > Secretary of HHS > > > Secretary of HUD > > > Secretary of Transportation > > > Secretary of Energy > > > Secretary of Education > > > Secretary of Veterans' Affairs > > > Sectary of Homeland Security > > > > > > After this, Martial Law is declared and the > highest > > > ranking military > > > official takes control. > > > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > > > >To: Donovan Arnold > > > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com > > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium > denial--GUTLESS > > > DEMOS? > > > >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:53:10 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > > > >Donovan, > > > >You wrote: > > > > > > > >"Fifth, why didn't the Republicans impeach > > > Lewinsky, > > > >it was her that did the > > > >act, not Clinton."  > > > > > > > >Actually what you imply here, that the > impeachment > > > was > > > >just about Lewinsky is incorrect.  > > > > > > > >The two adopted articles of impeachment read as > > > >follows:  > > > >  > > > >1st Article.The president provided perjurious, > > > false > > > >and misleading testimony to the grand jury > > > regarding > > > >the Paula Jones case and his relationship with > > > Monica > > > >Lewinsky. > > > > > > > >2nd Article. NOT ADOPTED > > > > > > > >3rd Article. The president obstructed justice > in an > > > >effort to delay, impede, cover up and conceal > the > > > >existence of evidence related to the Jones > case. > > > > > > > > > > > >While we're discussing it, can you imagine the > > > >reaction of the supposedly feminist-minded > Democrat > > > >party if a GOP pres. had perjured himself > > > concerning > > > >of all things A SEXUAL HARASSMENT LAWSUIT in > which > > > he > > > >himself was the defendant? > > > > > > > >I can hear it now. > > > >Oooooh the nerve of that sexist lout. > Ahhhh...the > > > >chutzpah of that chauvinist!! Let's maul that > > > >malicious misogynist!QQ > > > > > > > >BUT, when it was one of their own we heard > barely a > > > >peep of criticism against this fellow who has > often > > > >behaved as if women are little more than > chattel > > > for > > > >his private pleasure. And not only that, > committed > > > the > > > >crime of perjury when he got caught. > > > > > > > > NO, all we got from these pillars of profound > > > >feminist virtue was James Carville's classist > > > comment > > > >about Paula Jones being "trailer trash," and > cries > > > of > > > >"let's move on." > > > > > > > > Gee, I thought feminists considered sexual > > > >harassment serious business that should be > fully > > > >investigated and litigated so that the rights > of > > > >women, especially women in subordinate > employment > > > >positions, could be protected. > > > > > > > > Well they do, as long as one of their > buddies > > > necks > > > >isn't on the line. Oh, and it would help if > the > > > >alleged victim of this harassment is an elite > Ivy > > > >League type--one of them. If she's not > terribly > > > >refined, not too wealthy, and doesn't have many > > > >connections when the alleged harassment took > place, > > > >well, that's not a big deal. > > > > Just sweep it under the rug, lie about it, > or > > > "MOVE > > > >ON," right? > > > >  TL > > > > > > > >--- Donovan Arnold > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dale wrote: > > > > > "Would they impeach CIA Director George > Tenet > > > for > > > > > allowing the uranium claim > > > > > to be believed by the President? Or do they > > > impeach > > > > > the President for > > > > > trusting the information coming from the > CIA?" > > > > > > > > > > Dale, first, nobody on the planet except you > > > > > believes that Tenet is really > > > > > responsible. > > > > > Second, Tenet did not provide the > information > > > alone, > > > > > > > > > the British, Cheney, > > > > > Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell did. > > > > > Third, if the president can't even ask a > > > question > > > > > like "Which African > > > > > Country?" should he also have control of > nuclear > > > > > weapons? > > > > > Fourth, if Bush is not responsible for the > words > > > > > coming out of his mouth, > > > > > who is? > > > > > Fifth, why didn't the Republicans impeach > > > Lewinsky, > > > > > it was her that did the > > > > > act, not Clinton. > > > > > Finally, if Bush is not responsible for what > > > comes > > > > > out of his mouth, how can > > > > > we trust him, they might have been put there > by > > > > > someone else that lied? > > > > > > > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dale Courtney" > > > > > >To: > > > > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] uranium > > > denial--GUTLESS > > > > > DEMOS? > > > > > >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:54:34 -0700 > > > > > > > > > > > >Tim wrote: > > > > > > > Why DOESN'T the Democrat party launch > and > > > > > > > impeachment effort if they think it's > > > warranted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Would they impeach CIA Director George > Tenet > > > for > > > > > allowing the uranium claim > > > > > >to be believed by the President? > > > > > > > > > > > >Or do they impeach the President for > trusting > > > the > > > > > information coming from > > > > > >the CIA? > > > > > > > > > > > >Confused, > > > > > >Dale Courtney > > > > > >Moscow, Idaho > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > List services made available by First Step > > > > > Internet, > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse > since > > > > > 1994. > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: > 2 > > > months > > > > > > > > > FREE* > > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > > > List services made available by First Step > > > > > Internet, > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > > 1994. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > > > > > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > > > >Do you Yahoo!? > > > >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > > > >http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan > Online > > > > >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step > > > Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > >http://sbc.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months > FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 19:41:53 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] For Janesta In-Reply-To: <000c01c34bc7$c89f3d00$2af2f5c7@Janestas> Message-ID: <20030716184153.42265.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1981425034-1058380913=:40668 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Janesta: Is it true that the pastor over at Christ Church was behind an amateur boxing night earlier this year? Is it also true that his son broke his nose while fighting? I have an idea, then, Ms. Sullivan. I once saw a production of "The Rise and Fall of The City of Mahagonny," by Weill/Brecht. In it, we see the slow erosion of societal order, and the growing dependency of the characters on a violent way of life. Doug Wilson promotes violent behavior. So, just going with this theme: Why not open the "old GTE building" bathrooms to the general public, and if the people who use the bathroom there don't agree with the Satanic, twisted doctrinal beliefs of Doug Wilson, then some New Saint Andrews students can beat the living daylights out of them with the King James version of the Bible on their way out? That way, a person in Moscow can get the s**t out of them while getting the s**t kicked out of them at the same time. By the way, is Wilson Jr.'s nose healed yet? I wonder. Why DOES Wayne Browning (Moscow Realty) choose violence instead of Christ? Oh, yeah, that's right: Cuz that's the way Doug Wilson does it. Be pacifistic: That was one of Christ's messages, too: Let God take care of sin, don't punish others in God's name. NEVER. THAT IDEAS IS SO LOST ON DOUG WILSON, who is a straight up Calvinist, and a proponent of "cloning" others to be just like him, while teaching as a bigot in the name of Christ. The fact is, Doug Wilson and his brother Evan have been in theological disagreement for years: And as I traveled throughout Idaho, I met people who told me that EVEN DOUG'S BROTHER THINKS THAT CHRIST CHURCH IS A CULT and that DOUG MAKES UP HIS THEOLOGY AS HE GOES ALONG. I'm telling you, you folks tolerate this man when you shouldn't. Me, I am all for giving this land that we're on in Moscow back to the Native Americans; but Doug Wilson is all for growing an old part of England right here into the Northwest. It's wrong. It needs to stop. In Christ, Douglas Stambler JSullivan wrote: *digging around in the bottom of my very full purse, finally finding a quarter... flips it over to you with a charming smile lighting my face* Catch it Doug! A quarter. Now why don't you go buy yourself a clue? Janesta Sullivan This is my first, last and only reply to you Doug. *smile* Any and all mail I see from you in the future, I will use the lovely option of the "delete" key. ----- Original Message ----From: Douglas Stambler To: jsullivan@moscow.com ; vision2020@moscow.com Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:04 AM Subject: [Vision2020] i'm wondering hello, ms. sullivan: i'm wondering if they breed losers at the "old GTE building," or if just a bunch of losers hang out there. i thought that since you know so much about their bathrooms, you might be able to tell the forum more of what goes on inside the "old GTE building." In Christ, Douglas Stambler (moscow) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1981425034-1058380913=:40668 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Janesta:
 
Is it true that the pastor over at Christ Church was behind an amateur boxing night earlier this year?  Is it also true that his son broke his nose while fighting?
 
I have an idea, then, Ms. Sullivan.  I once saw a production of "The Rise and Fall of The City of Mahagonny," by Weill/Brecht.  In it, we see the slow erosion of societal order, and the growing dependency of the characters on a violent way of life.
 
Doug Wilson promotes violent behavior.  So, just going with this theme: Why not open the "old GTE building" bathrooms to the general public, and if the people who use the bathroom there don't agree with the Satanic, twisted doctrinal beliefs of Doug Wilson, then some New Saint Andrews students can beat the living daylights out of them with the King James version of the Bible on their way out?
 
That way, a person in Moscow can get the s**t out of them while getting the s**t kicked out of them at the same time.
 
By the way, is Wilson Jr.'s nose healed yet?  I wonder.  Why DOES Wayne Browning (Moscow Realty) choose violence instead of Christ?  Oh, yeah, that's right: Cuz that's the way Doug Wilson does it.  Be pacifistic: That was one of Christ's messages, too: Let God take care of sin, don't punish others in God's name.  NEVER.  THAT IDEAS IS SO LOST ON DOUG WILSON, who is a straight up Calvinist, and a proponent of "cloning" others to be just like him, while teaching as a bigot in the name of Christ.  The fact is, Doug Wilson and his brother Evan have been in theological disagreement for years: And as I traveled throughout Idaho, I met people who told me that EVEN DOUG'S BROTHER THINKS THAT CHRIST CHURCH IS A CULT and that DOUG MAKES UP HIS THEOLOGY AS HE GOES ALONG. 
 
I'm telling you, you folks tolerate this man when you shouldn't.  Me, I am all for giving this land that we're on in Moscow back to the Native Americans; but Doug Wilson is all for growing an old part of England right here into the Northwest.  It's wrong.  It needs to stop.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler

JSullivan <jsullivan@moscow.com> wrote:
*digging around in the bottom of my very full purse, finally finding a quarter... flips it over to you with a charming smile lighting my face*
 
Catch it Doug! A quarter. Now why don't you go buy yourself a clue?
 
Janesta Sullivan
 
This is my first, last and only reply to you Doug. *smile* Any and all mail I see from you in the future, I will use the lovely option of the "delete" key.
----- Original Message ----From: Douglas Stambler
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:04 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] i'm wondering

hello, ms. sullivan:
 
i'm wondering if they breed losers at the "old GTE building," or if just a bunch of losers hang out there.  i thought that since you know so much about their bathrooms, you might be able to tell the forum more of what goes on inside the "old GTE building."
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(moscow)

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1981425034-1058380913=:40668-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 20:02:48 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:02:48 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: Sexual harassment=sex Message-ID: Tim et. al. You speak as though you know with certainty what happened between Clinton and Paula Jones. Why? Did you see a video tape, or hear an audio tape, of the incident? Do you know of any source that does have video or audio tapes of the incident? Did you consult a psychic? Paula Jones did have motivation to embellish her story. And Clinton certainly had motivation to lie if he did truly harass Paula Jones. I don't think either individual is a paragon of truth. Your account of the ALLEGED sexual harassment is just a theory, one interpretation, though often repeated in the media. As we slide down the proverbial slippery muddy slope of civil rights erosion, the ease with which people, based on repetitions of a story alleging unlawful conduct, fueled by powerful emotions of bias, come to believe such allegations are fact, without sufficient evidence, just makes the slope even steeper and muddier. Ted >From: Tim Lohrmann >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: Sexual harassment=sex >Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:20:28 -0700 (PDT) > >Visionaries, > It's amazing really. Almost everyone who >commented on my posts are in such denial that their >blow dried slick willie could have been not exactly >respectful of women. > Bob Hoffman's and Joan Opyr's last posts were good >examples. > So for one last time, Folks, when Bill committed >perjury, he was NOT LYING ABOUT SEX or being a serial >adulterer he was lying in a deposition after he had >been named as the defendant in a SEXUAL HARASSMENT >SUIT. If you consider alleged sexual harassment(in >this case the chief exec. officer of a state sending >Ark State Troopers out to summon a young woman who was >in the employ of that state up to his room and >exposing himself demanding sexual gratification) as >comparable to just another sexual encounter then your >views on rights of women in the workplace may come >from the nineties--but the nineties of the last >century. > That's why I brought this up. To point out the >complete lack of principle in both parties. And how it >is often transferred to the knee-jerk defenders of >them. IF a GOP Pres. had been named in a sexual >harassment suit the supposedly feminist minded >Democrat party and their feminist allies would have >been enraged and sputtering into any available >microphone about what a pig he was. > BUT since he was who he was--linked to their own >political futures--heard next to nothing from the >demos and the feminists. Just as on this list, they >said it was JUST ABOUT SEX. > Principles in present day two party politics? As an >elderly neighbor of mine used to "they ain't got >na'arn!" > Later, TL > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >http://sbc.yahoo.com > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From timlohr@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 20:22:14 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: Sexual harassment=sex In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030716192214.3087.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Ted, Your response illustrates perfectly what I'm talking about and why I brought this up in the first place. The Democrats claim to be feminists, are supported wholeheartedly by most feminist groups, and quite frankly without strong support from women's groups they would not be competitive nationally. That's fine. However, when their values---here the right of a woman in a subordinate employment role alleging that she has been subjected to sexual demands from a male who is her vast superior in the workplace chain command(the classic sexual harassment scenario)to have her claim taken seriously and fully litigated--conflict with their own political interests, the Democrats don't support it. And further, they subject the female plaintiff to name-calling such as Carville's classist "trailer park trash" comment. Of course I don't know what actually happened. I just brought it up to point out this complete lack of principle and consistency. TL --- Ted Moffett wrote: > > Tim et. al. > > You speak as though you know with certainty what > happened between Clinton > and Paula Jones. Why? > Did you see a video tape, or hear an audio tape, of > the incident? Do you > know of any source that does have video or audio > tapes of the incident? > > Did you consult a psychic? > > Paula Jones did have motivation to embellish her > story. And Clinton > certainly had motivation to lie if he did truly > harass Paula Jones. I don't > think either individual is a paragon of truth. > > Your account of the ALLEGED sexual harassment is > just a theory, one > interpretation, though often repeated in the media. > > As we slide down the proverbial slippery muddy slope > of civil rights > erosion, the ease with which people, based on > repetitions of a story > alleging unlawful conduct, fueled by powerful > emotions of bias, come to > believe such allegations are fact, without > sufficient evidence, just makes > the slope even steeper and muddier. > > Ted > > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: > Sexual harassment=sex > >Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:20:28 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Visionaries, > > It's amazing really. Almost everyone who > >commented on my posts are in such denial that their > >blow dried slick willie could have been not exactly > >respectful of women. > > Bob Hoffman's and Joan Opyr's last posts were > good > >examples. > > So for one last time, Folks, when Bill > committed > >perjury, he was NOT LYING ABOUT SEX or being a > serial > >adulterer he was lying in a deposition after he had > >been named as the defendant in a SEXUAL HARASSMENT > >SUIT. If you consider alleged sexual harassment(in > >this case the chief exec. officer of a state > sending > >Ark State Troopers out to summon a young woman who > was > >in the employ of that state up to his room and > >exposing himself demanding sexual gratification) as > >comparable to just another sexual encounter then > your > >views on rights of women in the workplace may come > >from the nineties--but the nineties of the last > >century. > > That's why I brought this up. To point out the > >complete lack of principle in both parties. And how > it > >is often transferred to the knee-jerk defenders of > >them. IF a GOP Pres. had been named in a sexual > >harassment suit the supposedly feminist minded > >Democrat party and their feminist allies would have > >been enraged and sputtering into any available > >microphone about what a pig he was. > > BUT since he was who he was--linked to their > own > >political futures--heard next to nothing from the > >demos and the feminists. Just as on this list, they > >said it was JUST ABOUT SEX. > > Principles in present day two party politics? > As an > >elderly neighbor of mine used to "they ain't got > >na'arn!" > > Later, TL > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > >http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months > FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From thansen@moscow.com Wed Jul 16 20:52:37 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:52:37 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: Sexual harassment=sex In-Reply-To: <20030716192214.3087.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: For some reason the names Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill seem to fit this discussion. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 12:22 PM > To: Ted Moffett > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: Sexual > harassment=sex > > > Ted, > Your response illustrates perfectly what I'm > talking about and why I brought this up in the first > place. > The Democrats claim to be feminists, are supported > wholeheartedly by most feminist groups, and quite > frankly without strong support from women's groups > they would not be competitive nationally. > That's fine. However, when their values---here the > right of a woman in a subordinate employment role > alleging that she has been subjected to sexual demands > from a male who is her vast superior in the workplace > chain command(the classic sexual harassment > scenario)to have her claim taken seriously and fully > litigated--conflict with their own political > interests, the Democrats don't support it. And > further, they subject the female plaintiff to > name-calling such as Carville's classist "trailer park > trash" comment. > Of course I don't know what actually happened. > I just brought it up to point out this complete lack > of principle and consistency. > TL > > > --- Ted Moffett wrote: > > > > Tim et. al. > > > > You speak as though you know with certainty what > > happened between Clinton > > and Paula Jones. Why? > > Did you see a video tape, or hear an audio tape, of > > the incident? Do you > > know of any source that does have video or audio > > tapes of the incident? > > > > Did you consult a psychic? > > > > Paula Jones did have motivation to embellish her > > story. And Clinton > > certainly had motivation to lie if he did truly > > harass Paula Jones. I don't > > think either individual is a paragon of truth. > > > > Your account of the ALLEGED sexual harassment is > > just a theory, one > > interpretation, though often repeated in the media. > > > > As we slide down the proverbial slippery muddy slope > > of civil rights > > erosion, the ease with which people, based on > > repetitions of a story > > alleging unlawful conduct, fueled by powerful > > emotions of bias, come to > > believe such allegations are fact, without > > sufficient evidence, just makes > > the slope even steeper and muddier. > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > > >Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: > > Sexual harassment=sex > > >Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:20:28 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >Visionaries, > > > It's amazing really. Almost everyone who > > >commented on my posts are in such denial that their > > >blow dried slick willie could have been not exactly > > >respectful of women. > > > Bob Hoffman's and Joan Opyr's last posts were > > good > > >examples. > > > So for one last time, Folks, when Bill > > committed > > >perjury, he was NOT LYING ABOUT SEX or being a > > serial > > >adulterer he was lying in a deposition after he had > > >been named as the defendant in a SEXUAL HARASSMENT > > >SUIT. If you consider alleged sexual harassment(in > > >this case the chief exec. officer of a state > > sending > > >Ark State Troopers out to summon a young woman who > > was > > >in the employ of that state up to his room and > > >exposing himself demanding sexual gratification) as > > >comparable to just another sexual encounter then > > your > > >views on rights of women in the workplace may come > > >from the nineties--but the nineties of the last > > >century. > > > That's why I brought this up. To point out the > > >complete lack of principle in both parties. And how > > it > > >is often transferred to the knee-jerk defenders of > > >them. IF a GOP Pres. had been named in a sexual > > >harassment suit the supposedly feminist minded > > >Democrat party and their feminist allies would have > > >been enraged and sputtering into any available > > >microphone about what a pig he was. > > > BUT since he was who he was--linked to their > > own > > >political futures--heard next to nothing from the > > >demos and the feminists. Just as on this list, they > > >said it was JUST ABOUT SEX. > > > Principles in present day two party politics? > > As an > > >elderly neighbor of mine used to "they ain't got > > >na'arn!" > > > Later, TL > > > > > >__________________________________ > > >Do you Yahoo!? > > >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > > >http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step > > Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > 1994. > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > >///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months > > FREE*. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > From dkaag@turbonet.com Wed Jul 16 21:18:37 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:18:37 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections In-Reply-To: <200307161655.h6GGtJQU036212@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: Tom: Here are some of the other thoughts you solicited. I agree with Doug on choice in U.S. presidential elections. From my perspective, the "choices" offered to me by the two party system in the U.S. have been no choice at all. I am 59 years old, and was born while FDR was still president. I began voting at the age of 21, and I have never missed exercising my franchise. I have never voted FOR anyone for president that I thought reflected my view of what America ought to be, and have rather felt compelled to vote AGAINST what I saw as the worst of two evils. John Nance Garner, FDR's second vice-president, once said, "There's not a nickel's worth of difference between the Republicans and the Democrats", and in many respects he was right. It has almost come to the point where if a politician indicates interest in being president, he should not be allowed to run. The political whoring and compromising to raise the money to run, and to obtain his party's nomination, and then to win the election brings someone into the Oval Office that has already given up any pretense of doing what is for the short-term or long-term good of the country for the more practical goals of paying off his political debts and getting reelected to a second term. Now that Republicans also spend money like drunken sailors, there is precious little difference that I can see between them and the party that pretends to be concerned about poor people, but whose party apparat is full of rich ones that look on the nation's poor as a "safe" voting bloc, and an underclass best amused with bread and circuses. It's pretty much a wash. There is something critically wrong with a system which fails to attract the best and brightest of us to public service---and there are bright, dedicated, hard-headed, qualified, citizens out there---and instead presents us with either minor league lawyers or the the scions of political dynasties like Al Gore and George W. Bush as our choices for the highest office in the land. Our founders fought a revolution to get shet of a hereditary aristocracy, and they must be turning over in their graves. If I didn't have abiding faith in the ordinary, decent, people of this country, and if I didn't truly believe in what this country should stand for, rather than what it is, I would be in despair. Regards, Don Kaag On Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 10:28 AM, thansen@moscow.com wrote: > Douglas Wilson stated: > > "The last presidential election where Americans had a real choice to > go in one > of two opposite directions occurred a long time before I was born." > > Please elaborate. Every federal presidential election in which I have > participated since I was of voting age (and that has been several days > ago) has > clearly consisted of at least two choices (and in some cases three or > more). > > In my opinion for presidential election results to truly reflect the > peoples' > choice is to eliminate the electoral college and base the outcome > stricly on > popular vote. In the event that a candidate does not attract the > majority vote > (defined as 50% plus one), there should be a runoff between the top two > candidates. It is clearly that simple. > > Any other thoughts? > > Tom Hansen > Moscow, > Idaho > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent by First Step Internet. > http://www.fsr.net/ > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From timlohr@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 20:37:59 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: Sexual harassment=sex In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030716193759.53255.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Ted, A litigant, in a deposition, attempting to establish that the defendant has acted in similar ways in other settings is relevant and legitimate. It may or may not be allowed in open court, but it a legitimate line of inquiry that takes place in preparation for most suits. That's what I meant by the right of the plaintiff alleging sexual harassment to have her claim fully litigated. TL --- Ted Moffett wrote: > > Tim, et. al. > > I forgot to mention, that claim that Clinton was > lying "just about sex" > refers to the encounter with Lewinsky, not Paula > Jones. The dress with the > evidence was the smoking gun to prove Clinton did > have a certain sort of > encounter with Lewinsky. The alleged sexual > harassment of Paula Jones did > not have this sort of conclusive evidence backing it > up. > > So I don't see the hypocrisy you claim is expressed > by people who say > Clinton's lies were "just about sex." If this > refers to the Lewinsky case, > it was just about sex. Lewinsky has never claimed > she was sexually > harassed, as far as I know. She was a willing > partner. > > Ted > > > >From: "Ted Moffett" > >To: timlohr@yahoo.com > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace > rules: Sexual > >harassment=sex > >Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:02:48 +0000 > > > > > >Tim et. al. > > > >You speak as though you know with certainty what > happened between Clinton > >and Paula Jones. Why? > >Did you see a video tape, or hear an audio tape, of > the incident? Do you > >know of any source that does have video or audio > tapes of the incident? > > > >Did you consult a psychic? > > > >Paula Jones did have motivation to embellish her > story. And Clinton > >certainly had motivation to lie if he did truly > harass Paula Jones. I > >don't think either individual is a paragon of > truth. > > > >Your account of the ALLEGED sexual harassment is > just a theory, one > >interpretation, though often repeated in the media. > > > >As we slide down the proverbial slippery muddy > slope of civil rights > >erosion, the ease with which people, based on > repetitions of a story > >alleging unlawful conduct, fueled by powerful > emotions of bias, come to > >believe such allegations are fact, without > sufficient evidence, just makes > >the slope even steeper and muddier. > > > >Ted > > > > > > > >>From: Tim Lohrmann > >>To: vision2020@moscow.com > >>Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: > Sexual harassment=sex > >>Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:20:28 -0700 (PDT) > >> > >>Visionaries, > >> It's amazing really. Almost everyone who > >>commented on my posts are in such denial that > their > >>blow dried slick willie could have been not > exactly > >>respectful of women. > >> Bob Hoffman's and Joan Opyr's last posts were > good > >>examples. > >> So for one last time, Folks, when Bill > committed > >>perjury, he was NOT LYING ABOUT SEX or being a > serial > >>adulterer he was lying in a deposition after he > had > >>been named as the defendant in a SEXUAL HARASSMENT > >>SUIT. If you consider alleged sexual harassment(in > >>this case the chief exec. officer of a state > sending > >>Ark State Troopers out to summon a young woman who > was > >>in the employ of that state up to his room and > >>exposing himself demanding sexual gratification) > as > >>comparable to just another sexual encounter then > your > >>views on rights of women in the workplace may come > >>from the nineties--but the nineties of the last > >>century. > >> That's why I brought this up. To point out the > >>complete lack of principle in both parties. And > how it > >>is often transferred to the knee-jerk defenders of > >>them. IF a GOP Pres. had been named in a sexual > >>harassment suit the supposedly feminist minded > >>Democrat party and their feminist allies would > have > >>been enraged and sputtering into any available > >>microphone about what a pig he was. > >> BUT since he was who he was--linked to their > own > >>political futures--heard next to nothing from the > >>demos and the feminists. Just as on this list, > they > >>said it was JUST ABOUT SEX. > >> Principles in present day two party politics? > As an > >>elderly neighbor of mine used to "they ain't got > >>na'arn!" > >> Later, TL > >> > >>__________________________________ > >>Do you Yahoo!? > >>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > >>http://sbc.yahoo.com > >> > >>_____________________________________________________ > >> List services made available by First Step > Internet, > >> serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > >> http://www.fsr.net > >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months > FREE*. > >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > >_____________________________________________________ > >List services made available by First Step > Internet, serving the > >communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months > FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 21:52:47 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 20:52:47 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: Sexual harassment=sex Message-ID: Tim wrote: > > >> So for one last time, Folks, when Bill > > committed > > >>perjury, he was NOT LYING ABOUT SEX or being a > > serial > > >>adulterer he was lying in a deposition after he > > had > > >>been named as the defendant in a SEXUAL HARASSMENT > > >>SUIT. > they > > >>said it was JUST ABOUT SEX. > > >> If I understand you correctly, in the above comment you are linking the statement that Clinton was "lying about sex" to the Paula Jones case, asserting that this statement "Clinton's lies were just about sex," applies to his conduct in the Paula Jones case, and is therefore inaccurate, because lying about sexual harassment is more serious than "just lying about sex." But in fact any lies Clinton told in this matter were only verified in the Lewinsky case, as far as I know, in which case the statement that Clinton was "just lying about sex" is correct, and so therefore does not indicate a hypocritical attitude. Lewinsky was a willing partner in consensual conduct between adults. Concerning your claim that some Democrats were not as fervent a defender of women's rights as their feminist ideology should inspire in how they viewed the Paula Jones case, I think you are right. There is no big news in this revelation. Republicans are not now going after Bush for his "lies" with the same fervor they went after Clinton for his. If they were consistent fervent defenders of presidential integrity, Bush would be under tremendous fire from most Republicans, but he is not, of course. But again, this is just what is to be expected based on partisan loyalty. My focus was on the comment you made about Clinton's lies. In the case of Lewinsky, lies were admitted and they were "just about sex" between consenting adults. So the people making this statement "Clinton's lies were just about sex." are not being hypocritical, even if they are defenders of women's rights. In the Paula Jones case, the facts were never proven sufficiently, as far as I can discern, to state conclusively who was lying, or if sexual harassment ever took place. Clinton's lies concerning Paula Jones are speculation. I hope this clarifies my point. Ted _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 20:32:01 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:32:01 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: Sexual harassment=sex Message-ID: Tim, et. al. I forgot to mention, that claim that Clinton was lying "just about sex" refers to the encounter with Lewinsky, not Paula Jones. The dress with the evidence was the smoking gun to prove Clinton did have a certain sort of encounter with Lewinsky. The alleged sexual harassment of Paula Jones did not have this sort of conclusive evidence backing it up. So I don't see the hypocrisy you claim is expressed by people who say Clinton's lies were "just about sex." If this refers to the Lewinsky case, it was just about sex. Lewinsky has never claimed she was sexually harassed, as far as I know. She was a willing partner. Ted >From: "Ted Moffett" >To: timlohr@yahoo.com >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: Sexual >harassment=sex >Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:02:48 +0000 > > >Tim et. al. > >You speak as though you know with certainty what happened between Clinton >and Paula Jones. Why? >Did you see a video tape, or hear an audio tape, of the incident? Do you >know of any source that does have video or audio tapes of the incident? > >Did you consult a psychic? > >Paula Jones did have motivation to embellish her story. And Clinton >certainly had motivation to lie if he did truly harass Paula Jones. I >don't think either individual is a paragon of truth. > >Your account of the ALLEGED sexual harassment is just a theory, one >interpretation, though often repeated in the media. > >As we slide down the proverbial slippery muddy slope of civil rights >erosion, the ease with which people, based on repetitions of a story >alleging unlawful conduct, fueled by powerful emotions of bias, come to >believe such allegations are fact, without sufficient evidence, just makes >the slope even steeper and muddier. > >Ted > > > >>From: Tim Lohrmann >>To: vision2020@moscow.com >>Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: Sexual harassment=sex >>Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:20:28 -0700 (PDT) >> >>Visionaries, >> It's amazing really. Almost everyone who >>commented on my posts are in such denial that their >>blow dried slick willie could have been not exactly >>respectful of women. >> Bob Hoffman's and Joan Opyr's last posts were good >>examples. >> So for one last time, Folks, when Bill committed >>perjury, he was NOT LYING ABOUT SEX or being a serial >>adulterer he was lying in a deposition after he had >>been named as the defendant in a SEXUAL HARASSMENT >>SUIT. If you consider alleged sexual harassment(in >>this case the chief exec. officer of a state sending >>Ark State Troopers out to summon a young woman who was >>in the employ of that state up to his room and >>exposing himself demanding sexual gratification) as >>comparable to just another sexual encounter then your >>views on rights of women in the workplace may come >>from the nineties--but the nineties of the last >>century. >> That's why I brought this up. To point out the >>complete lack of principle in both parties. And how it >>is often transferred to the knee-jerk defenders of >>them. IF a GOP Pres. had been named in a sexual >>harassment suit the supposedly feminist minded >>Democrat party and their feminist allies would have >>been enraged and sputtering into any available >>microphone about what a pig he was. >> BUT since he was who he was--linked to their own >>political futures--heard next to nothing from the >>demos and the feminists. Just as on this list, they >>said it was JUST ABOUT SEX. >> Principles in present day two party politics? As an >>elderly neighbor of mine used to "they ain't got >>na'arn!" >> Later, TL >> >>__________________________________ >>Do you Yahoo!? >>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >>http://sbc.yahoo.com >> >>_____________________________________________________ >> List services made available by First Step Internet, >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 22:20:05 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Bait For Doug Wilson Message-ID: <20030716212005.20035.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com> --0-314422823-1058390405=:19700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Doug Wilson has not come out on this forum and in any way denied that he is: 1) an adulterer 2) a sexual predator 3) a follower of Satan So, therefore, he admits it all by default. I offer this thought about Doug Wilson: Why did Doug Wilson direct some of his church members to pray against people who decided to leave his church? Is that a Christian idea? NO WAY. As you folks on the forum can tell, all Doug Wilson's prayers and those of his cult followers against ME, have come to nothing, and never will. The Native Americans used to live in the Palouse; this is their land; don't be fooled by a Doug Wilson, who would like you all to believe that there is no thing as spiritual justice. The Doug Wilsons of this world are being overthrown by God, and we only see one such generic Doug Wilson here in Moscow. But there are so many others, worldwide. But mark my words: Moscow will be overturned, and the modern, "white" civilization that prevails here in the Palouse will be spiritually overthrown. It is already taking place, and there's nothing nobody can do to stop it. Signed, Prophet on The Palouse (Moscow) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-314422823-1058390405=:19700 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Doug Wilson has not come out on this forum and in any way denied that he is:
 
1) an adulterer
 
2) a sexual predator
 
3) a follower of Satan
 
 
So, therefore, he admits it all by default.
 
 
I offer this thought about Doug Wilson:  Why did Doug Wilson direct some of his church members to pray against people who decided to leave his church?  Is that a Christian idea?  NO WAY.  As you folks on the forum can tell, all Doug Wilson's prayers and those of his cult followers against ME, have come to nothing, and never will.  The Native Americans used to live in the Palouse; this is their land; don't be fooled by a Doug Wilson, who would like you all to believe that there is no thing as spiritual justice.  The Doug Wilsons of this world are being overthrown by God, and we only see one such generic Doug Wilson here in Moscow.  But there are so many others, worldwide.  But mark my words: Moscow will be overturned, and the modern, "white" civilization that prevails here in the Palouse will be spiritually overthrown.
 
It is already taking place, and there's nothing nobody can do to stop it.
 
Signed,
Prophet on The Palouse
(Moscow)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-314422823-1058390405=:19700-- From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Wed Jul 16 22:26:47 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:26:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Bait For Doug Wilson Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FD4@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Mr. Stambler stated: "Doug Wilson has not come out on this forum and in any way denied that he is: 1) an adulterer 2) a sexual predator 3) a follower of Satan" Probably for the same reason that nobody else has responded to your allegations, Mr. Stambler. Just like me, nobody takes you seriously any more. You're a joke. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From johnmoss@moscow.com Wed Jul 16 20:54:08 2003 From: johnmoss@moscow.com (John Moss) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:54:08 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections - can we clarify? References: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FD1@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <003901c34bd4$4b69a2f0$2201a8c0@RMACH> Dear Tom, et al, If Tom's statement "Candidates with the most votes win" is referring to popular vote, then he is incorrect with regards to the Constitution. If his statement meant "Candidates with the most electoral votes win," then he is accurately depicting what the Constitution says. However, since that statement appears in a post criticizing Mr. Nieuwsma's defense of the electoral college, my guess is he was referring to the popular vote. When making a broad-sweeping reference to what the Constitution says ("Don't wait for the movie. Read the book"), I highly recommend quoting the actual Document: Article II, Section I: Clause 2: Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector. Clause 3: The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice President. We see in Clause 2 that the states appoint electors, and in Clause 3, we see that the electors vote for President. This is not a popular vote (e.g., "Candidates with the most votes win.") This is a state-based electoral vote; it would be accurate to say "Candidates with the most electoral votes win." So, if we are going to talk about what the original founding fathers wrote in the Constitution (we can debate later whether what they wrote was right or wrong), we should at least accurately quote what they originally wrote. John Moss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Hansen" To: "'Joshua Nieuwsma'" ; "vision" Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 11:09 AM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections > Mr. Nieuwsma stated: > > "A simple majority candidate is a bad idea and makes for bad politics. And > who says that they are preferred? Only the people who are on the simple > majority side. Those in the minority, however huge it might be, are > generally not happy with the events." > > My suggestion, Mr. Nieuwsma: Don't wait for the movie. Read the book. It > is titled "The Constitution of the United States of America". Candidates > with the most votes win. Programs that garner the most "yes" votes are > enacted. End of discussion. > > I do believe that this discussion is seriously becoming ludicrous. > > Tom Hansen > Moscow, Idaho > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:58 AM > To: vision > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections > > > A simple majority candidate is a bad idea and makes for bad politics. And > who says that they are preferred? Only the people who are on the simple > majority side. Those in the minority, however huge it might be, are > generally not happy with the events. Even in small situations, like school > student body elections, close elections cause bad feelings among the > students. The same in individual classrooms. So expand it to a national > level, and you have big trouble. That's how you get assassinations and > military states. Not everyone is as willing to accept a 49.99% defeat as you > might be, Mr. Hansen. And some people are willing to fight over it, on both > sides. That's my point. It's not a good idea. I don't like the electoral > college either, but I do think that it has served as a scapegoat in several > close elections in our nations history. I am arguing that the concept of > simple majority is misplaced and misapplied in politics. It is a very > dangerous way&! nbsp;to decide national issues and leaders. > > By the way, Mr. Hansen, most of the original founders of the united States > were against party politics, knowing that they are 1) divisive, 2) > threatening to freedom and liberty, 3) a horrible way to elect reps (i.e. > the average "republican" or "democrat" will vote party line regardless of > beliefs or morals). George Washington, in his farewell address, as I recall, > or in a similar address, warned against them. But parties and cliques being > human nature, they arose anyhow. And have caused problems ever since. > > out for today, > > Joshua Nieuwsma > > Thomas Hansen wrote: > Visionaires - > > Mr. Nieuwsam's argument doesn't hold water (let alone the hot air that is > intended). A majority candidate is always preferred. Last time I checked > 50.000000000000001% is larger than 49.99999999999999999999999% and reflects > a majority. To maintain the electoral college just so we would have > something to blame when elections go "wrong" is beyond stupidity. > > Mr. Niewsma stated: > > "And Mr. Hansen, I think you missed Pastor Wilson's point. Two opposite > directions (i.e. not facing same way) is not the same thing as two different > choices. Both the Dems and the Reps are socialists. Just one is more open > about it." > > As it should be. The current two-party system is the result of over 200 > years of political evolution within the United States. One way to develope > a viable third party is to create one that a large percentage of the people > support not only with ballots but with money. > > For your information, ind! ependent candidates (candidates not affiliated > with > any political party) have been elected as state governors, US > Representatives, and US Senators. > > Tom Hansen > Moscow, Idaho > > > > > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > From timlohr@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 21:00:23 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] FASCINATING ERROR MESSAGE! Message-ID: <20030716200023.3729.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, Check this error message!! TL The good folks at Google are being funny...try this soon, before Google fixes its site: 1) Go to Google.com 2) Type in (but don't hit return): "weapons of mass destruction" 3) Hit the "I'm feeling lucky" button, instead of the normal "Google search" button 4) READ what appears to be a normal error message very carefully __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From timlohr@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 21:07:13 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Revisionist workplace rules: sexual harassment Message-ID: <20030716200713.57654.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Tom, You wrote that the Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill situation was relevant to this discussion. I couldn't agree more. The sanctimoniously feminist- minded Democrats were all over Clarence on that one-- even to the point of finding out whether or not he had ever rented a porno movie. But when it came to Clinton their enthusiasm for this sort of investigation suddenly waned. Let's just move on they said. Lack of consistency and principle on the issue? I think so. TL __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 22:03:12 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:03:12 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: Sex=sexual harassment? Message-ID: Tom, Tim et. al. Yes indeed. The case of C. Thomas and Anita Hill is an excellent example of conservatives downplaying claims of sexual harassment, while in the Clinton case they milked it for all it was worth. There appears to be no shortage of hypocrisy in both the Democrats and the Republicans. Ted _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From escape@alt-escape.com Wed Jul 16 22:44:16 2003 From: escape@alt-escape.com (Bob Hoffmann) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:44:16 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: Sexual harassment=sex In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716143302.0211f5b0@mail.turbonet.com> At 08:52 PM 7/16/2003 +0000, Ted Moffett wrote: >In the Paula Jones case, the facts were never proven sufficiently, as far >as I can discern, to state conclusively who was lying, or if sexual >harassment ever took place. Clinton's lies concerning Paula Jones are >speculation. It is my understanding that even Paula Jones' accusations did not meet the state definition of sexual harassment. According to her story, she came into his office, he showed her his dingle-dangle, she was taken aback, and he said, "OK, I wouldn't want you to do anything that you wouldn't want to," and zipped it back up. Indecent exposure, yes. But believe it or not, this does not necessarily meet the Arkansas definition of sexual harassment. Not as though I care about the details. With talk of impeachment, let me ask the following about the Jones/Lewinsky episodes: How many Iraqis were killed? How many American were killed? How many international treaties were broken? How did it harm our relations with our allies? How much money did Clinton stuff into his greedy little pockets, and those of his friends, in the process? How did it endanger the retirement of the common American? How many social services were cut in the process? How many more people became homeless? How many civil rights were abridged? How much environmental damage was caused? These are things I care about when selecting and retaining a president. Not as though Clinton had a perfect track record on these issues (minus sexual involvement). But impeach a president on the basis of the answers to these questions, not "did a politician lie to a grand jury about a sexual matter." Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Wed Jul 16 22:54:07 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:54:07 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] FASCINATING ERROR MESSAGE! Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FD5@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Great! I guess that there is far too much comical material ouit there in the real world for the Google gurus to pass up. For those of you who didn't see it, I posted it to my website at: http://www.tomandrodna.com/WMD.jpg Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: Tim Lohrmann [mailto:timlohr@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 1:00 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] FASCINATING ERROR MESSAGE! Visionaries, Check this error message!! TL The good folks at Google are being funny...try this soon, before Google fixes its site: 1) Go to Google.com 2) Type in (but don't hit return): "weapons of mass destruction" 3) Hit the "I'm feeling lucky" button, instead of the normal "Google search" button 4) READ what appears to be a normal error message very carefully __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 22:58:52 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] ha ha Message-ID: <20030716215852.60116.qmail@web80604.mail.yahoo.com> --0-204017873-1058392732=:59725 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii tom: i think that you'd be a more active moderator than bill london "bridges." you might want to get up from that computer from time to time, too, and go for a walk...maybe even attend a service or two at Christ Church, just to see the trail of evidence over there. In Christ, Douglas Stambler --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! 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tom: i think that you'd be a more active moderator than bill london "bridges."  you might want to get up from that computer from time to time, too, and go for a walk...maybe even attend a service or two at Christ Church, just to see the trail of evidence over there.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-204017873-1058392732=:59725-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 23:06:14 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church and "Dude, Where's My Car?" Message-ID: <20030716220614.10141.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com> --0-280536400-1058393174=:10060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Talking to Christ Church people in Moscow is just like this scene from "Dude Where's My Car?" I didn't include the cussing... -douglas stambler ***************************** Jesse: "Hey, Nelson, let me order." Speaker: "Chinese Fooood, may I help you?" Jesse: "Yeah I''d like to place an order." Speaker: "What would you like?" Jesse: "Yeah, I''d like, uh, three orders of Garlic Chicken." Speaker: "And then?" Chester: "And then three orders of white rice." Speaker: "And then?" Jesse: "And then....... oh hey, you guys want soup?" Chester: "Sure." Jesse: "Yeah, three orders of, um, Wanton Soup." Speaker: "And then?" Jesse: "Oh, uh, some Fortune Cookies too." Speaker: "And then?" Jesse: "Uuuuh, actually I think that''s about it." Speaker: "And then?" Jesse: "No. That''s it." Speaker: "And then?" Jesse: "No and then. That''s all I want." Speaker: "And then?" Jesse: "And then nothing else ''cos I''m done ordering." Speaker: "And then?" Jesse: "No, see, all I want is the three orders of the Garlic Chicken and the three orders of the white rice." Speaker: "Huh, and then?" Chester: "And the soup, Dude." Jesse: "And the Wanton Soup." Speaker: "And then?" Nelson: "And the cookies fortune." Jesse: "And the Fortune Cookies, yes. So it''s just the uh, the chicken, the rice, the soup and the fortune cookies and that''s it." Speaker: "And then?" Jesse: "And THEN, uh, you can put it in a brown paper bag and come put it in my hand ''cos I''m ready to eat." Speaker: "And then?" Jesse: "Hey, I refuse to play your Chinese food mind games." Speaker: "And then?" Jesse: "NO. NO AND THEN." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-280536400-1058393174=:10060 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Talking to Christ Church people in Moscow is just like this scene from "Dude Where's My Car?" I didn't include the cussing...

-douglas stambler

*****************************

Jesse: "Hey, Nelson, let me order."
Speaker: "Chinese Fooood, may I help you?"
Jesse: "Yeah I''d like to place an order."
Speaker: "What would you like?"
Jesse: "Yeah, I''d like, uh, three orders of Garlic Chicken."
Speaker: "And then?"
Chester: "And then three orders of white rice."
Speaker: "And then?"
Jesse: "And then....... oh hey, you guys want soup?"
Chester: "Sure."
Jesse: "Yeah, three orders of, um, Wanton Soup."
Speaker: "And then?"
Jesse: "Oh, uh, some Fortune Cookies too."
Speaker: "And then?"
Jesse: "Uuuuh, actually I think that''s about it."
Speaker: "And then?"
Jesse: "No. That''s it."
Speaker: "And then?"
Jesse: "No and then. That''s all I want."
Speaker: "And then?"
Jesse: "And then nothing else ''cos I'! 'm done ordering."
Speaker: "And then?"
Jesse: "No, see, all I want is the three orders of the Garlic Chicken and the three orders of the white rice."
Speaker: "Huh, and then?"
Chester: "And the soup, Dude."
Jesse: "And the Wanton Soup."
Speaker: "And then?"
Nelson: "And the cookies fortune."
Jesse: "And the Fortune Cookies, yes. So it''s just the uh, the chicken, the rice, the soup and the fortune cookies and that''s it."
Speaker: "And then?"
Jesse: "And THEN, uh, you can put it in a brown paper bag and come put it in my hand ''cos I''m ready to eat."
Speaker: "And then?"
Jesse: "Hey, I refuse to play your Chinese food mind games."
Speaker: "And then?"
Jesse: "NO. NO AND THEN."

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-280536400-1058393174=:10060-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 23:10:59 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Some quick thoughts on the Wilson camp... Message-ID: <20030716221059.63365.qmail@web80604.mail.yahoo.com> --0-157313887-1058393459=:63279 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Some quick thoughts on the Wilson camp... I've always felt weird about the Doug Wilson camp in Moscow, Idaho, and I haven't ever been able to sort through all the points at which I'm concerned, but here's one I've finally nailed down. The Wilson Camp really puts alot of importance on classical education, and there seems to be a real emphasis on the church fathers, from the Reformation on back. Unfortunately though, the Wilson camp is a camp without an obviously traceable history. At least I've never found one written down anywhere. Their "known" current history, as the story has been put to me, is that a few years back Doug Wilson became Reformed and guided his congregation away from a Baptist orientation into a Reformed one. Then at some point, Rev. Wilson and/or Christ Church started the Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals, a new denomination, and joined it. Wilson then, and Christ Church, decided against joining the existing Reformed and Presbyterian denominations in North America. These denominations have distinct lineages, some tracing back far before the fouding of our country. Why would they decide to forsake denominations with rich histories? The argument cannot be made that all of these denominations had gone apostate. So why would a person and group who put so much emphasis on being historical and catholic, at a crucial developmental point, commit a decidedly un-catholic move? Its seems a distinctively modernist thing to do. Posted by Josiah at March 5, 2003 09:12 PM | TrackBack --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-157313887-1058393459=:63279 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Some quick thoughts on the Wilson camp...

I've always felt weird about the Doug Wilson camp in Moscow, Idaho, and I haven't ever been able to sort through all the points at which I'm concerned, but here's one I've finally nailed down.

The Wilson Camp really puts alot of importance on classical education, and there seems to be a real emphasis on the church fathers, from the Reformation on back.

Unfortunately though, the Wilson camp is a camp without an obviously traceable history. At least I've never found one written down anywhere. Their "known" current history, as the story has been put to me, is that a few years back Doug Wilson became Reformed and guided his congregation away from a Baptist orientation into a Reformed one. Then at some point, Rev. Wilson and/or Christ Church started the Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals, a new denomination, and joined it.

Wilson then, and Christ Church, decided against joining the existing Reformed and Presbyterian denominations in North America. These denominations have distinct lineages, some tracing back far before the fouding of our country. Why would they decide to forsake denominations with rich histories? The argument cannot be made that all of these denominations had gone apostate. So why would a person and group who put so much emphasis on being historical and catholic, at a crucial developmental point, commit a decidedly un-catholic move?

Its seems a distinctively modernist thing to do.

Posted by Josiah at March 5, 2003 09:12 PM | TrackBack

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-157313887-1058393459=:63279-- From timlohr@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 23:28:35 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Revisionist Workplace rules: Sex=sexual harassment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030716222835.94234.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Ted, EXACTLY RIGHT! TL --- Ted Moffett wrote: > Tom, Tim et. al. > > Yes indeed. > > The case of C. Thomas and Anita Hill is an excellent > example of > conservatives downplaying claims of sexual > harassment, while in the Clinton > case they milked it for all it was worth. > > There appears to be no shortage of hypocrisy in both > the Democrats and the > Republicans. > > Ted > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection > with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 23:47:26 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Concerns About Funding For Christ Church (Moscow, Idaho) Message-ID: <20030716224726.29382.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> --0-2101212242-1058395646=:28215 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Albertsons Foundation: I have heard that your organization has donated something like $75,000 to Logos School in Moscow, Idaho. I am writing to you with serious concerns about this donation, and how it might adversely affect the children in attendance there. Within the past year, the pastor of Christ Church -Doug Wilson- has come under investigation as a promoter of child abuse. In addition, he has faced charges that he is essentially organizing his own religious denomination. There is also ample evidence that he is using his church status to promote racially divisive ideas throughout the United States. In addition, there is currently a lawsuit getting ready to come against Logos School for child abuse. I'm wondering if Albertsons really wants to be named as a sponsor of this pastor and his programs here in Moscow, when the lawsuit finally makes it to the regional press. Thank you. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Moscow, Idaho) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2101212242-1058395646=:28215 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Dear Albertsons Foundation:
 
I have heard that your organization has donated something like $75,000 to Logos School in Moscow, Idaho.  I am writing to you with serious concerns about this donation, and how it might adversely affect the children in attendance there.
 
Within the past year, the pastor of Christ Church -Doug Wilson- has come under investigation as a promoter of child abuse.  In addition, he has faced charges that he is essentially organizing his own religious denomination.  There is also ample evidence that he is using his church status to promote racially divisive ideas throughout the United States.  In addition, there is currently a lawsuit getting ready to come against Logos School for child abuse.
 
I'm wondering if Albertsons really wants to be named as a sponsor of this pastor and his programs here in Moscow, when the lawsuit finally makes it to the regional press.
 
Thank you.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Moscow, Idaho)

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2101212242-1058395646=:28215-- From london@moscow.com Thu Jul 17 00:57:45 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:57:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] confession Message-ID: <3F15E679.E5370B05@moscow.com> To whom it may concern: I have not denied--nor do I intend to deny at any time on this forum--that I am: 1) an adulterer 2) a sexual predator 3) a follower of Satan Therefore, you may choose to assume that I am all three. BL From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 17 01:06:46 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:06:46 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] confession In-Reply-To: <3F15E679.E5370B05@moscow.com> Message-ID: To Whom It May Concern: Upon reflection of my life, I feel comfortable in confessing that I am (and have always been) a lesbian trapped in a man's body. Whew! I feel alot better now. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Bill London > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 4:58 PM > To: Vision2020 > Subject: [Vision2020] confession > > > To whom it may concern: > > I have not denied--nor do I intend to deny at any time on this > forum--that I am: > > 1) an adulterer > > 2) a sexual predator > > 3) a follower of Satan > > Therefore, you may choose to assume that I am all three. > BL > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > From dkaag@turbonet.com Thu Jul 17 02:47:50 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:47:50 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716151416.0211b1a0@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: Tom: Here's another idea vis a vis the "Electrical College". It does serve a purpose, and that is to involve the several States in the presidential electoral process and to give states with small populations, like Idaho, some say in the outcome. The problem is that 48 of the 50 states are "winner take all", i.e., if California votes 51% for a candidate, all of the state's electoral votes go to the winner, effectively disenfranchizing 49% of the state's electorate. The other two states apportion electoral votes (each state has the same number of electoral votes as they have representation in the Congress... two senators and however many representatives each...) based on the vote in the respective voting districts, so it is possible to, for example, have Idaho have two electoral votes for one candidate and two for another, or one and three. That seems to me to be a laudable change that more accurately reflects the real popular vote, but still keeps the Electoral College in the equation, as the Founders intended. Completely doing away with the College would almost completely marginalize the votes in a state our size. Regards, Don Kaag On Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 03:14 PM, Bob Hoffmann wrote: > Yo, Don! Mega Dittos! > > At 01:18 PM 7/16/2003 -0700, you wrote: >> Tom: >> >> Here are some of the other thoughts you solicited. >> >> I agree with Doug on choice in U.S. presidential elections. From my >> perspective, the "choices" offered to me by the two party system in >> the U.S. have been no choice at all. >> >> I am 59 years old, and was born while FDR was still president. I >> began voting at the age of 21, and I have never missed exercising my >> franchise. I have never voted FOR anyone for president that I >> thought reflected my view of what America ought to be, and have >> rather felt compelled to vote AGAINST what I saw as the worst of two >> evils. >> >> John Nance Garner, FDR's second vice-president, once said, "There's >> not a nickel's worth of difference between the Republicans and the >> Democrats", and in many respects he was right. >> >> It has almost come to the point where if a politician indicates >> interest in being president, he should not be allowed to run. The >> political whoring and compromising to raise the money to run, and to >> obtain his party's nomination, and then to win the election brings >> someone into the Oval Office that has already given up any pretense >> of doing what is for the short-term or long-term good of the country >> for the more practical goals of paying off his political debts and >> getting reelected to a second term. >> >> Now that Republicans also spend money like drunken sailors, there is >> precious little difference that I can see between them and the party >> that pretends to be concerned about poor people, but whose party >> apparat is full of rich ones that look on the nation's poor as a >> "safe" voting bloc, and an underclass best amused with bread and >> circuses. >> It's pretty much a wash. There is something critically wrong with a >> system which fails to attract the best and brightest of us to public >> service---and there are bright, dedicated, hard-headed, qualified, >> citizens out there---and instead presents us with either minor league >> lawyers or the the scions of political dynasties like Al Gore and >> George W. Bush as our choices for the highest office in the land. >> Our founders fought a revolution to get shet of a hereditary >> aristocracy, and they must be turning over in their graves. >> >> If I didn't have abiding faith in the ordinary, decent, people of >> this country, and if I didn't truly believe in what this country >> should stand for, rather than what it is, I would be in despair. >> >> Regards, >> >> Don Kaag >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 10:28 AM, thansen@moscow.com wrote: >> >>> Douglas Wilson stated: >>> >>> "The last presidential election where Americans had a real choice to >>> go in one >>> of two opposite directions occurred a long time before I was born." >>> >>> Please elaborate. Every federal presidential election in which I >>> have >>> participated since I was of voting age (and that has been several >>> days ago) has >>> clearly consisted of at least two choices (and in some cases three >>> or more). >>> >>> In my opinion for presidential election results to truly reflect the >>> peoples' >>> choice is to eliminate the electoral college and base the outcome >>> stricly on >>> popular vote. In the event that a candidate does not attract the >>> majority vote >>> (defined as 50% plus one), there should be a runoff between the top >>> two >>> candidates. It is clearly that simple. >>> >>> Any other thoughts? >>> >>> Tom Hansen >>> Moscow, >>> Idaho >>> >>> --------------------------------------------- >>> This message was sent by First Step Internet. >>> http://www.fsr.net/ >>> >>> >>> _____________________________________________________ >>> List services made available by First Step Internet, >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >>> http://www.fsr.net >>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >>> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ >> >> >> _____________________________________________________ >> List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >> communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > Bob Hoffmann > 820 S. Logan St. > Moscow, ID 83843 > > Tel: 208 883-0642 From davidcb@acm.org Thu Jul 17 03:58:06 2003 From: davidcb@acm.org (David Camden-Britton) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:58:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Filtering E-mail Redux Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030716195727.029e7b28@mail.turbonet.com> Reposting this for folks who are tired of certain person's e-mailings:
=======================================================
One of the neat features of modern e-mail programs is a setting known as a "filter".  It allows you to automagically route messages to various mailboxes, or the trash, based on criteria you choose.  It makes it fairly quick and painless to remove an unwanted presence from your e-mail.

Here's how to do this in the Eudora E-mail client:
On the top menu bar click:  Special --> Make Filter

A dialogue box will come up where you fill in the name of who you'd like to filter.  For instance, if you'd like to filter posts made by Douglas Stambler, enter:  Douglas Stambler <stopchristchurch@yahoo.com>   in the "From" box.

On the bottom of the dialogue box, there is a setting for where to send the filtered message.  Select "Delete Message (Send to Trash)" if you'd like.

Now, whenever you receive a message that matches that criteria, Eudora will automagically send it to the trash bin. No muss, little fuss.

If you use Yahoo to read your e-mail, it can be done by selecting "Mail Options" at the main e-mail window. Then "Block Addresses". Enter "stopchristchurch@yahoo.com ", for example, and it will be added to your blocked list. 

For Microsoft Outlook, at the top menu bar select:  Tools --> Rules Wizard

When the Rules Wizard dialogue box pops up, select "Add". 

Under "Which type of Rule do you want to create", select "Move new messages from someone".

Select the underlined "People" link and a Rule Address box will pop up.  If you don't have Douglas Stambler in your list of people, then select "Create New Contact", enter his information and e-mail address then hit OK.  Now, select his name, and click the "From->" button and it will be added to the list on the right. Hit OK.

Click the underlined "Specified folder" and select Deleted Items.

If you want to be trickier, add more conditions, but otherwise click "Next->" twice and give this rule a name. Select Finish.

Make sure the rule has a checkmark in the box, then click OK.  Ta-da!

For other e-mail clients or systems, please consult your documentation (F1 will bring up a help menu, usually. Look for "Filters" or "Rules" under the help search feature.

Hope this helps.

David Camden-Britton -=)*(=-  davidcb@acm.org From davidcb@acm.org Thu Jul 17 04:05:50 2003 From: davidcb@acm.org (David Camden-Britton) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 20:05:50 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Video games In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030716195816.029321d8@mail.turbonet.com> Well, I am confident that by banning violent computer and video games, we will eliminate all violence as no one hurt each other or did terrible things until the 1980's and the rise of violent video games. Until then, it was a pastoral wonderland. 

Granted, there are some tacky games out there.  Solution:  Don't buy them. 

Some kids are playing these games. Solution:  Have their parents make a command decision and restrict access to these games.

Now, I'm not denying that a steady stream of violent images isn't harmful, but doesn't that mean shutting off your television as well (not a bad idea, actually)? 

Heck, it pays to remember that a tiny percentage of the population are downright crazy. Regardless of their stimulus, they're going to find a way to do something awful. So, whether it be violent video games, that Devil Rock, religious tracts, their dog, or just the voices in their head, these people aren't processing well and end up committing terrible acts against their fellow man.  It would strengthen the argument of the people who want to ban things if they could provide solid numbers that showed that such violent acts in children were on the rise, versus pointing to a few well-publicized events, which were to be expected, statistically speaking.



At 08:03 AM 7/8/2003 -0700, you wrote:

The gist of the story was an attempt in Washington state to ban games featuring the killing of police.  Are these games ultimately harmless, and is this much ado about nothing?  Or are they just wrong?  If they are wrong, what do we as a society do?  Is banning an answer?                       

David Camden-Britton -=)*(=-  davidcb@acm.org From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Thu Jul 17 04:52:15 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 20:52:15 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections Message-ID: Joshua says, "some thoughts: Having a purely majority vote election would split the country. It's already becoming divided, but in my opinion choosing a leader based solely upon 50.0001% of the votes is crazy." Then why even have elections. Let us just live in a dictatorship. Think about what you said Josh, you said that the majority vote should not be the deciding factor, so why hold elections, isn't the whole point of it? Donovan J Arnold >From: Joshua Nieuwsma >To: vision >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections >Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:19:23 -0700 (PDT) > >some thoughts: >Having a purely majority vote election would split the country. It's >already becoming divided, but in my opinion choosing a leader based solely >upon 50.0001% of the votes is crazy. At least right now, with the electoral >college, we have a system to blame when someone gets voted in with less >than the majority of the citizens votes. An entity is alot less personal >than the guy down the street who we have enmity against, if it is a hotly >contested election, because he voted for the other guy that got in instead >of our 49.9999% guy. Simple majority is a great way to get people >frustrated, upset, and eventually riotous. (Incidentally, it is also a >dangerous basis for legislation.) The southern states were quite unhappy >when Lincoln won the presidency without even a simple majority. He got >something like 37%. But the electoral college put him in power. >And besides, no one likes runoffs. Isn't it best to avoid them? We don't >live in anything remotely like an ideal state. Look at how hard it is for >California to decide to replace their governor. How much worse to hold a >second presidential election. It's just not feasible, in my opinion. >And Mr. Hansen, I think you missed Pastor Wilson's point. Two opposite >directions (i.e. not facing same way) is not the same thing as two >different choices. Both the Dems and the Reps are socialists. Just one is >more open about it. > >sincerely, > >Joshua Nieuwsma > >thansen@moscow.com wrote: >Douglas Wilson stated: > >"The last presidential election where Americans had a real choice to go in >one >of two opposite directions occurred a long time before I was born." > >Please elaborate. Every federal presidential election in which I have >participated since I was of voting age (and that has been several days ago) >has >clearly consisted of at least two choices (and in some cases three or >more). > >In my opinion for presidential election results to truly reflect the >peoples' >choice is to eliminate the electoral college and base the outcome stricly >on >popular vote. In the event that a candidate does not attract the majority >vote >(defined as 50% plus one), there should be a runoff between the top two >candidates. It is clearly that simple. > >Any other thoughts? > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, >Idaho > >--------------------------------------------- >This message was sent by First Step Internet. >http://www.fsr.net/ > > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, >serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >http://www.fsr.net >mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From timlohr@yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 05:59:33 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030717045933.32735.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Don, I agree, the system you mention would be the best reform. Otherwise, all a candidate would need to do is promise to bail California out of its multi-billion dollar deficit and maybe toss a couple of other juicy bones their way. He/she would likely get upwards of 65% of the CA vote for that pandering. The rest of the popular vote needed would be easy just on the basis of party affiliation or some other issue. The two states are Maine and which other? TL --- Don Kaag wrote: > Tom: > > Here's another idea vis a vis the "Electrical > College". It does serve > a purpose, and that is to involve the several States > in the > presidential electoral process and to give states > with small > populations, like Idaho, some say in the outcome. > > The problem is that 48 of the 50 states are "winner > take all", i.e., if > California votes 51% for a candidate, all of the > state's electoral > votes go to the winner, effectively disenfranchizing > 49% of the state's > electorate. The other two states apportion > electoral votes (each state > has the same number of electoral votes as they have > representation in > the Congress... two senators and however many > representatives each...) > based on the vote in the respective voting > districts, so it is possible > to, for example, have Idaho have two electoral votes > for one candidate > and two for another, or one and three. > > That seems to me to be a laudable change that more > accurately reflects > the real popular vote, but still keeps the Electoral > College in the > equation, as the Founders intended. Completely > doing away with the > College would almost completely marginalize the > votes in a state our > size. > > Regards, > > Don Kaag > > On Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 03:14 PM, Bob > Hoffmann wrote: > > > Yo, Don! Mega Dittos! > > > > At 01:18 PM 7/16/2003 -0700, you wrote: > >> Tom: > >> > >> Here are some of the other thoughts you > solicited. > >> > >> I agree with Doug on choice in U.S. presidential > elections. From my > >> perspective, the "choices" offered to me by the > two party system in > >> the U.S. have been no choice at all. > >> > >> I am 59 years old, and was born while FDR was > still president. I > >> began voting at the age of 21, and I have never > missed exercising my > >> franchise. I have never voted FOR anyone for > president that I > >> thought reflected my view of what America ought > to be, and have > >> rather felt compelled to vote AGAINST what I saw > as the worst of two > >> evils. > >> > >> John Nance Garner, FDR's second vice-president, > once said, "There's > >> not a nickel's worth of difference between the > Republicans and the > >> Democrats", and in many respects he was right. > >> > >> It has almost come to the point where if a > politician indicates > >> interest in being president, he should not be > allowed to run. The > >> political whoring and compromising to raise the > money to run, and to > >> obtain his party's nomination, and then to win > the election brings > >> someone into the Oval Office that has already > given up any pretense > >> of doing what is for the short-term or long-term > good of the country > >> for the more practical goals of paying off his > political debts and > >> getting reelected to a second term. > >> > >> Now that Republicans also spend money like > drunken sailors, there is > >> precious little difference that I can see between > them and the party > >> that pretends to be concerned about poor people, > but whose party > >> apparat is full of rich ones that look on the > nation's poor as a > >> "safe" voting bloc, and an underclass best amused > with bread and > >> circuses. > >> It's pretty much a wash. There is something > critically wrong with a > >> system which fails to attract the best and > brightest of us to public > >> service---and there are bright, dedicated, > hard-headed, qualified, > >> citizens out there---and instead presents us with > either minor league > >> lawyers or the the scions of political dynasties > like Al Gore and > >> George W. Bush as our choices for the highest > office in the land. > >> Our founders fought a revolution to get shet of a > hereditary > >> aristocracy, and they must be turning over in > their graves. > >> > >> If I didn't have abiding faith in the ordinary, > decent, people of > >> this country, and if I didn't truly believe in > what this country > >> should stand for, rather than what it is, I would > be in despair. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Don Kaag > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 10:28 AM, > thansen@moscow.com wrote: > >> > >>> Douglas Wilson stated: > >>> > >>> "The last presidential election where Americans > had a real choice to > >>> go in one > >>> of two opposite directions occurred a long time > before I was born." > >>> > >>> Please elaborate. Every federal presidential > election in which I > >>> have > >>> participated since I was of voting age (and that > has been several > >>> days ago) has > >>> clearly consisted of at least two choices (and > in some cases three > >>> or more). > >>> > >>> In my opinion for presidential election results > to truly reflect the > >>> peoples' > >>> choice is to eliminate the electoral college and > base the outcome > >>> stricly on > >>> popular vote. In the event that a candidate > does not attract the > >>> majority vote > >>> (defined as 50% plus one), there should be a > runoff between the top > >>> two > >>> candidates. It is clearly that simple. > >>> > >>> Any other thoughts? > >>> > >>> Tom Hansen > >>> Moscow, > >>> Idaho > >>> > >>> --------------------------------------------- > >>> This message was sent by First Step Internet. > >>> http://www.fsr.net/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > _____________________________________________________ > >>> List services made available by First Step > Internet, > >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > >>> http://www.fsr.net > >>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >>> > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >> > >> > >> > _____________________________________________________ > >> List services made available by First Step > Internet, serving the > >> communities of the Palouse since 1994. > >> http://www.fsr.net > >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >> > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > Bob Hoffmann > > 820 S. Logan St. > > Moscow, ID 83843 > > > > Tel: 208 883-0642 > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jul 17 13:31:56 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:31:56 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Presidential Elections In-Reply-To: <20030717045933.32735.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001c01c34c5f$6976e6f0$ca01a8c0@home> Tim wrote: > Otherwise, all a candidate would need to do is > promise to bail California out of its multi-billion > dollar deficit and maybe toss a couple of other juicy > bones their way. He/she would likely get upwards of > 65% of the CA vote for that pandering. The rest of the > popular vote needed would be easy just on the basis of > party affiliation or some other issue. Grandiose pre-election promises smacking of old-fashioned vote-buying? That surely cannot happen in *our* country (or State). Of course, the more we expect the civil government to do for us, the more likely the vote-buying promises -- and the later each year the "Cost of Government Day" becomes... Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Thu Jul 17 16:34:13 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:34:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Blame Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FD6@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> "The secret to success is knowing who to blame for your failures." - www.despair.com Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Thu Jul 17 17:13:57 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:13:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] guerilla warfare Message-ID: Just a couple of weeks ago in a press conference, Donald Rumsfeld reacted to the term guerilla warfare in regards to Iraq with his patented, endearing, sneering, condescending, "you're not a patriot, are you" kind of response. Hell no, this isn't guerilla warfare, said Rumsfeld, these are terrorist attacks. Now that Gen. Abizaid had said that, indeed, this is guerilla warfare, it's apparently not unpatriotic to use that term. To push the envelope a little, would it still be unpatriotic to ask a one word question: Quagmire? Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From christianlegal2003@yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 19:08:28 2003 From: christianlegal2003@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Proof That Doug Wilsons Career Is Over Message-ID: <20030717180828.64187.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> --0-171869440-1058465308=:64119 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Proof That Doug Wilson’s Career Is Over Cc: Bill London, Doug Wilson, Linda Pall, Ruth Drollinger, Evan Wilson Bill London: I threw the bait for Doug Wilson, but you picked it up, and so I will reel you in, right here on the forum. How many people on this forum are aware of a lawsuit against Doug Wilson's Logos School? I know about it; Ruth Drollinger knows about it; Bill London knows about it. In fact, there are people on this forum, who have been wanting to see Doug Wilson fall for a long time, because they hate him. I don't hate Doug Wilson: I object to the fact that he is an evil person. Why do people on this forum pretend that Doug Wilson's life work is harmful to only Doug Wilson? As if Doug Wilson's single-minded pursuit of evil will somehow not affect them, too? I will break it down for you like this: 1) Someone on this forum is taking a lawsuit against Logos School for child abuse. 2) Linda Pall is the current attorney on this case. 3) Bill London has offered his personal assistance and that of the Moscow Civic Association on behalf of the plaintiff, against Doug Wilson and Logos School. Are we starting to wake up a little bit now, folks? You people get all over my case for the way I talk about sin on this forum. But am I plotting and preparing a lawsuit against the very person so many people have found disagreeable for so many years? Doug Wilson. Either you're for him or against him at this point. And yet, you people pretend on this forum that you're ignorant to a legal plot to end Doug Wilson's career. But I have told you all before: God will take this man and expose him, it is only a matter of time. Doug Wilson's career is officially over. If anyone on this forum would like to prove to themself that Doug Wilson is indeed at the end of his career, then simply contact Lori Sudermann at the Spokesman Review at hannelores@spokesman.com: She is planning a story about Doug Wilson and Christ Church, but is waiting for Ruth Drollinger's class action lawsuit against Logos School to emerge first. The very fact that the moderator of this forum (Bill London) has offered support in a lawsuit against Doug Wilson, really underscores that the Vision 2020 Forum is more than a virtual display of opinion and rhetoric. Will the forum be picnicking at East City Park when the lawsuit against Logos School becomes known to the public? Obviously not. Sure, I'm a loser, many of you have already told me that - and I really don't care: I serve God, not other humans. But at least you know where I stand and what I'm really about when I post on this forum. The way I look at the rumblings on this forum against Doug Wilson is like this: 1) Bill London might publicly deny that he made an offer to help Ruth Drollinger against Doug Wilson. 2) Ruth Drollinger might deny that she is suing Logos School. 3) Linda Pall might deny knowledge or involvement in this lawsuit. 4) Doug Wilson might benefit if Bill, Ruth, Linda lie about trying to undo Doug Wilson with a child abuse court case. Whatever you think about me on this forum, the fact is that people have taken me into confidence. The reason I spill the beans every time, is because people refuse to give me credit for helping expose what's wrong in this community. My cards are right there on the table. I show them to you folks here all the time. So many people here really detest Doug Wilson - from ex-members of his church to former colleagues and professors at the University of Idaho. I am speaking out against the hypocrisy of this forum, and I will not be branded a liar for my efforts. Finally, the main players on this forum (the Huskeys, Hanson, Westerberg, London), would have to admit that it has been disingenuous for Doug Wilson to do everything BUT speak about 1) the scandal in his church brought against him by a trusted friend and confidant; 2) the label of heretic, given to him by a national, Christian movement; 3) and the gambling scandal involving Roy Atwood. I have met people in Moscow, who are afraid to speak publicly against Doug Wilson, because they are afraid of: a) the social consequences and b) harassment from members of Christ Church. Again, ex-members of that Church have been "corporately" prayed AGAINST by Doug Wilson and his followers. These actions are sinful coming from anyone, but particularly damning for Doug Wilson, who has done his best over time, on this forum, to present a wholesome character that is potentially likable. Again: Doug Wilson is evil, and not at all a wholesome person. And a lot of you on this forum know it. D! on't blame me for Doug Wilson being who he is: HE IS A WALKING, NATIONAL CONTROVERSY, with EVIL written all over him. Look on the internet for yourself: Doug Wilson is thought of (even by Reformed Christians) as a dangerous person and someone who needs to repent for what he teaches. And until Doug Wilson speaks up honestly on this forum, I don't see how it can get any better for him or his associates. I think that they're all going down the tubes, with the exception of maybe Doug Jones, whose loyalties are more for Christ than they are for Doug Wilson. You've called me all sorts of names on this forum. But this is not the writing of a madman or a con artist. Somebody, please have the courage to finally organize against Christ Church and Doug Wilson: Before his 900+ congregation folds, and there is not a helpful hand in Moscow or Pullman to "deprogram" the very lost people who attend Christ Church on a regular basis. Folks, I really think that this might be the only opportunity to outreach to the congregants of Christ Church: Before Doug Wilson finally steps down as pastor, leaving 900+ people directionless - BECAUSE THEY FOLLOWED DOUG WILSON AND NOT JESUS CHRIST. All the best, Douglas Stambler (Moscow) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-171869440-1058465308=:64119 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Proof That Doug Wilson’s Career Is Over

Cc: Bill London, Doug Wilson, Linda Pall, Ruth Drollinger, Evan Wilson

 

Bill London:

I threw the bait for Doug Wilson, but you picked it up, and so I will reel you in, right here on the forum.

How many people on this forum are aware of a lawsuit against Doug Wilson's Logos School?  I know about it; Ruth Drollinger knows about it; Bill London knows about it.  In fact, there are people on this forum, who have been wanting to see Doug Wilson fall for a long time, because they hate him.  I don't hate Doug Wilson: I object to the fact that he is an evil person.

 Why do people on this forum pretend that Doug Wilson's life work is harmful to only Doug Wilson?  As if Doug Wilson's single-minded pursuit of evil will somehow not affect them, too?  I will break it down for you like this:

1) Someone on this forum is taking a lawsuit against Logos School for child abuse.

            2) Linda Pall is the current attorney on this case.

            3) Bill London has offered his personal assistance and that of the Moscow Civic Association on behalf of the plaintiff, against Doug Wilson and Logos School.

 Are we starting to wake up a little bit now, folks?  You people get all over my case for the way I talk about sin on this forum.  But am I plotting and preparing a lawsuit against the very person so many people have found disagreeable for so many years?  Doug Wilson.  Either you're for him or against him at this point.  And yet, you people pretend on this forum that you're ignorant to a legal plot to end Doug Wilson's career.  But I have told you all before: God will take this man and expose him, it is only a matter of time.  Doug Wilson's career is officially over.

 If anyone on this forum would like to prove to themself that Doug Wilson is indeed at the end of his career, then simply contact Lori Sudermann at the Spokesman Review at hannelores@spokesman.com: She is planning a story about Doug Wilson and Christ Church, but is waiting for Ruth Drollinger's class action lawsuit against Logos School to emerge first.

The very fact that the moderator of this forum (Bill London) has offered support in a lawsuit against Doug Wilson, really underscores that the Vision 2020 Forum is more than a virtual display of opinion and rhetoric.  Will the forum be picnicking at East City Park when the lawsuit against Logos School becomes known to the public?  Obviously not.  Sure, I'm a loser, many of you have already told me that - and I really don't care: I serve God, not other humans.  But at least you know where I stand and what I'm really about when I post on this forum.

 

The way I look at the rumblings on this forum against Doug Wilson is like this:

            1) Bill London might publicly deny that he made an offer to help Ruth Drollinger against Doug Wilson.

            2) Ruth Drollinger might deny that she is suing Logos School.

            3) Linda Pall might deny knowledge or involvement in this lawsuit.

            4) Doug Wilson might benefit if Bill, Ruth, Linda lie about trying to undo Doug Wilson with a child abuse court case.

Whatever you think about me on this forum, the fact is that people have taken me into confidence.  The reason I spill the beans every time, is because people refuse to give me credit for helping expose what's wrong in this community.  My cards are right there on the table.  I show them to you folks here all the time.  So many people here really detest Doug Wilson - from ex-members of his church to former colleagues and professors at the University of Idaho.  I am speaking out against the hypocrisy of this forum, and I will not be branded a liar for my efforts.

Finally, the main players on this forum (the Huskeys, Hanson, Westerberg, London), would have to admit that it has been disingenuous for Doug Wilson to do everything BUT speak about 1) the scandal in his church brought against him by a trusted friend and confidant; 2) the label of heretic, given to him by a national, Christian movement; 3) and the gambling scandal involving Roy Atwood.  I have met people in Moscow, who are afraid to speak publicly against Doug Wilson, because they are afraid of: a) the social consequences and b) harassment from members of Christ Church.  Again, ex-members of that Church have been "corporately" prayed AGAINST by Doug Wilson and his followers.  These actions are sinful coming from anyone,! but particularly damning for Doug Wilson, who has done his best over time, on this forum, to present a wholesome character that is potentially likable.  Again: Doug Wilson is evil, and not at all a wholesome person.  And a lot of you on this forum know it.  Don't blame me for Doug Wilson being who he is: HE IS A WALKING, NATIONAL CONTROVERSY, with EVIL written all over him.

Look on the internet for yourself: Doug Wilson is thought of (even by Reformed Christians) as a dangerous person and someone who needs to repent for what he teaches.  And until Doug Wilson speaks up honestly on this forum, I don't see how it can get any better for him or his associates.  I think that they're all going down the tubes, with the exception of maybe Doug Jones, whose loyalties are more for Christ than they are for Doug Wilson.

You've called me all sorts of names on this forum.  But this is not the writing of a madman or a con artist.  Somebody, please have the courage to finally organize against Christ Church and Doug Wilson: Before his 900+ congregation folds, and there is not a helpful hand in Moscow or Pullman to "deprogram" the very lost people who attend Christ Church on a regular basis.  Folks, I really think that this might be the only opportunity to outreach to the congregants of Christ Church: Before Doug Wilson finally steps down as pastor, leaving 900+ people directionless - BECAUSE THEY FOLLOWED DOUG WILSON AND NOT JESUS CHRIST.

 

All the best,

Douglas Stambler

(Moscow)

 

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-171869440-1058465308=:64119-- From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Thu Jul 17 19:22:55 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:22:55 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Proof That Doug Wilsons Career Is Over Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FD7@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Mr. Stambler - Aren't you putting the cart before the horse? A person allegedly commits a criminal offense (sexual abuse) and you file a civil suit against him? Wouldn't it be wiser to file a criminal complaint against Mr. Wilson and after that is completed, file a civil suit against him? This way the criminal complaint (and its subsequent trial) would substantiate your civil action. Tom Hansen From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jul 17 20:17:20 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:17:20 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Vision 2020 Iowa Style Message-ID: Palouse People of Pastoral Peace! Well, at least they try. Trolling through the web, I found another V2020! http://www.iastate.edu/~vision2020/ Maybe this version of V2020 has already been disclosed on the list. Ted _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jul 17 20:35:00 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:35:00 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] guerilla warfare Message-ID: Carl et. al. Quagmire? A relative term! Considering that it took hundreds of years to democratize and pacify the unruly and Godless natives here on Turtle Island (North America to you invading Europeans), we should be patient with Iraq. In hundreds of years we should be able to democratize and pacify Iraq, don't you think? Ted >From: "Carl Westberg" >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] guerilla warfare >Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:13:57 -0700 > >Just a couple of weeks ago in a press conference, Donald Rumsfeld reacted >to the term guerilla warfare in regards to Iraq with his patented, >endearing, sneering, condescending, "you're not a patriot, are you" kind of >response. Hell no, this isn't guerilla warfare, said Rumsfeld, these are >terrorist attacks. Now that Gen. Abizaid had said that, indeed, this is >guerilla warfare, it's apparently not unpatriotic to use that term. To >push the envelope a little, would it still be unpatriotic to ask a one word >question: Quagmire? > > > Carl >Westberg Jr. > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From curley@turbonet.com Thu Jul 17 20:48:08 2003 From: curley@turbonet.com (Mike Curley) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:48:08 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] confession In-Reply-To: <3F15E679.E5370B05@moscow.com> Message-ID: <200307171939.h6HJdN636199@fsr.com> Mr. London: OK sure, but you have ducked the real issue. You HAVE denied repeatedly that you are the moderator of this forum and I'm holding you to it. I for one am NOT letting Stambler promote you to that position. So be clear. No more moderation on your part, you hear me??!! Mike Curley On 16 Jul 03, at 16:57, Bill London wrote: From: Bill London Send reply to: london@moscow.com To: Vision2020 Subject: [Vision2020] confession Date sent: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:57:45 -0700 > To whom it may concern: > > I have not denied--nor do I intend to deny at any time on > this > forum--that I am: > > 1) an adulterer > > 2) a sexual predator > > 3) a follower of Satan > > Therefore, you may choose to assume that I am all three. BL > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From christianlegal2003@yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 22:01:39 2003 From: christianlegal2003@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Clarification: Red Hawk Crossing Message-ID: <20030717210139.43692.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> --0-725753471-1058475699=:43479 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I was asked by someone at Red Hawk Crossing to make clear that Red Hawk Crossing is not a part of Christ Church. My point was that Doug Wilson is waiting until his father dies, so that he can acquire that property for his own purposes. But currently, Red Hawk Crossing is part of Jim Wilson's Community Christian Ministries. In Christ, Douglas Stambler --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-725753471-1058475699=:43479 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I was asked by someone at Red Hawk Crossing to make clear that Red Hawk Crossing is not a part of Christ Church.  My point was that Doug Wilson is waiting until his father dies, so that he can acquire that property for his own purposes.  But currently, Red Hawk Crossing is part of Jim Wilson's Community Christian Ministries.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-725753471-1058475699=:43479-- From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 00:38:14 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Filtering E-mail Redux In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030716195727.029e7b28@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: <20030717233814.63115.qmail@web13405.mail.yahoo.com> --0-2032798717-1058485094=:62925 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thank-you, I had completely forgotten about the "filtering" feature on my email system. I just added another one. Cheers! John Harrell Moscow, ID David Camden-Britton wrote: Reposting this for folks who are tired of certain person's e-mailings: ======================================================= One of the neat features of modern e-mail programs is a setting known as a "filter". It allows you to automagically route messages to various mailboxes, or the trash, based on criteria you choose. It makes it fairly quick and painless to remove an unwanted presence from your e-mail. Here's how to do this in the Eudora E-mail client: On the top menu bar click: Special --> Make Filter A dialogue box will come up where you fill in the name of who you'd like to filter. For instance, if you'd like to filter posts made by Douglas Stambler, enter: Douglas Stambler in the "From" box. On the bottom of the dialogue box, there is a setting for where to send the filtered message. Select "Delete Message (Send to Trash)" if you'd like. Now, whenever you receive a message that matches that criteria, Eudora will automagically send it to the trash bin. No muss, little fuss. --------------------------------- If you use Yahoo to read your e-mail, it can be done by selecting "Mail Options" at the main e-mail window. Then "Block Addresses". Enter "stopchristchurch@yahoo.com ", for example, and it will be added to your blocked list. --------------------------------- For Microsoft Outlook, at the top menu bar select: Tools --> Rules Wizard When the Rules Wizard dialogue box pops up, select "Add". Under "Which type of Rule do you want to create", select "Move new messages from someone". Select the underlined "People" link and a Rule Address box will pop up. If you don't have Douglas Stambler in your list of people, then select "Create New Contact", enter his information and e-mail address then hit OK. Now, select his name, and click the "From->" button and it will be added to the list on the right. Hit OK. Click the underlined "Specified folder" and select Deleted Items. If you want to be trickier, add more conditions, but otherwise click "Next->" twice and give this rule a name. Select Finish. Make sure the rule has a checkmark in the box, then click OK. Ta-da! --------------------------------- For other e-mail clients or systems, please consult your documentation (F1 will bring up a help menu, usually. Look for "Filters" or "Rules" under the help search feature. Hope this helps. David Camden-Britton -=)*(=- davidcb@acm.org _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2032798717-1058485094=:62925 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Thank-you,
 
I had completely forgotten about the "filtering" feature on my email system.
 
I just added another one.
 
Cheers!
John Harrell
Moscow, ID

David Camden-Britton <davidcb@acm.org> wrote:
Reposting this for folks who are tired of certain person's e-mailings:
=======================================================
One of the neat features of modern e-mail programs is a setting known as a "filter".  It allows you to automagically route messages to various mailboxes, or the trash, based on criteria you choose.  It makes it fairly quick and painless to remove an unwanted presence from your e-mail.

Here's how to do this in the Eudora E-mail client:
On the top menu bar click:  Special --> Make Filter

A dialogue box will come up where you fill in the name of who you'd like to filter.  For instance, if you'd like to filter posts made by Douglas Stambler, enter:  Douglas Stambler <stopchristchurch@yahoo.com>   in the "From" box.

On the bottom of the dialogue box, there is a setting for where to ! send the filtered message.  Select "Delete Message (Send to Trash)" if you'd like.

Now, whenever you receive a message that matches that criteria, Eudora will automagically send it to the trash bin. No muss, little fuss.

If you use Yahoo to read your e-mail, it can be done by selecting "Mail Options" at the main e-mail window. Then "Block Addresses". Enter "stopchristchurch@yahoo.com ", for example, and it will be added to your blocked list. 

For Microsoft Outlook, at the top menu bar select:  Tools --> Rules Wizard

When the Rules Wizard dialogue box pops up, select "Add". 

Under "Which type of Rule do you want to create", select "Move new messages from someone".

Select the underlined "People" link and a Rule Address box will pop up.  If you don't have Douglas Stambler in your list of people, then select "Create New Contact", enter his information and e-mail address then hit OK.  Now, select his name, and click the "From->" button and it will be added to the list on the right. Hit OK.

Click the underlined "Specified folder" and select Deleted Items.

If you want to be trickier, add more conditions, but otherwise click "Next->" twice and give this rule a name. Select Finish.

Make sure the rule has a checkmark in the box, then click OK.  Ta-da!

For other e-mail clients or systems, please consult your documentation (F1 will bring up a help menu, usually. Look for "Filters" or "Rules" under the help search feature.

Hope this helps.

David Camden-Britton -=)*(=-  davidcb@acm.org _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2032798717-1058485094=:62925-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 01:15:18 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] a question for you - for Charlie Nolan Message-ID: <20030718001518.67756.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com> --0-2025143941-1058487318=:66283 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mr. Nolan: While speaking with Eric E. today at Redhawk Crossing about Doug Wilson, he told me that you have alleged that Doug Wilson has spoken openly about killing people. Since Eric E. is not usually prone to spreading gossip, I trust the source. I want to make sure that I have my facts straight here. Did you say this? Because if you did say this about Doug Wilson, I would not spare a moment, before letting people in Moscow know what I have suspected about Doug Wilson, all along. And, if so, would you mind clarifying what you meant? Thank you, Douglas Stambler and The Vision 2020 Forum (Moscow) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2025143941-1058487318=:66283 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Mr. Nolan:
 
While speaking with Eric E. today at Redhawk Crossing about Doug Wilson, he told me that you have alleged that Doug Wilson has spoken openly about killing people.  Since Eric E. is not usually prone to spreading gossip, I trust the source.
 
I want to make sure that I have my facts straight here.  Did you say this?  Because if you did say this about Doug Wilson, I would not spare a moment, before letting people in Moscow know what I have suspected about Doug Wilson, all along.  And, if so, would you mind clarifying what you meant?
 
 
Thank you,
Douglas Stambler and The Vision 2020 Forum (Moscow)

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2025143941-1058487318=:66283-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 02:26:38 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Links To Doug Wilson's Recent Scandals Message-ID: <20030718012638.94144.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com> --0-196456650-1058491598=:93970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.geocities.com/solemncharges/SolemnCharges.htm http://www.swrb.com/newslett/Barrow-Wilson-Debate.PDF --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-196456650-1058491598=:93970 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
 
 
 

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-196456650-1058491598=:93970-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 02:30:11 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Argonaut Article on Doug Wilson and Logos Message-ID: <20030718013011.79066.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> --0-769635327-1058491811=:78299 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Private school under public microscope Many students don’t know that Moscow has a successful religious private school. Or maybe students didn’t know until they read that Logos, a Moscow school affiliated with the Christ Church, is banning women from its school board. There hasn’t been a woman on the board since its conception 15 years ago. According to Doug Wilson, Christ Church pastor, Logos now just wants to make it policy, so no one can sue them for de facto discrimination. Moscow residents began a heated discussion about this on Vision2020, a mailing list operated by First Step Internet and located at moscow.com. Wilson seemed pleasantly surprised that so many people were interested in what the Christ Church is doing. But why shouldn’t they be? Women’s equality is becoming ingrained in this country’s consciousness, and this new policy seems like taking a step backward. Of course, as a private organization, Logos School has the right to keep women off the school board. As we have seen in Augusta, people outside the organization have the right to complain and protest the actions. Vision2020 has seen a number of complaints and protests, and fortunately, most spawn discussion instead of animosity. The problem is that Wilson and his allies on Vision2020 fail to answer legitimate questions. Logos has the right to ban women from its board, but also has a social responsibility to explain its actions to its neighbors. A good community means caring about your neighbors and what they are doing. When one group of women hit the glass ceiling, all of society is hurt. Mothers of Logos schoolchildren may agree with the policy, but those who don’t are always free to send their children to another school. Luckily, America as a whole does not have such limitations on women, and women are always free to associate with whatever schools, churches and associations they choose. Wilson’s general failure on Vision 2020 to explain the intentions of Logos school and the Christ Church will alienate the school and church groups more than the alternate worldview of the progressive community will. Logos teaches both Latin and rhetoric, so Wilson must know reductio ad absurdem and ad hominem are more likely to inflame than inform. Moscow is basically looking for answers. Why ban women from your school board? Why make fun of people asking legitimate questions? It may be a private school, but Logos is in the public eye. Logos doesn’t need to seek approval, but it would be prudent to seek and offer understanding. M.M. Editor’s note: Regretfully, the Argonaut was unable to reach Logos for comment. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-769635327-1058491811=:78299 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Private school under public microscope

Many students don’t know that Moscow has a successful religious private school. Or maybe students didn’t know until they read that Logos, a Moscow school affiliated with the Christ Church, is banning women from its school board.

There hasn’t been a woman on the board since its conception 15 years ago. According to Doug Wilson, Christ Church pastor, Logos now just wants to make it policy, so no one can sue them for de facto discrimination.

Moscow residents began a heated discussion about this on Vision2020, a mailing list operated by First Step Internet and located at moscow.com. Wilson seemed pleasantly surprised that so many people were interested in what the Christ Church is doing.

But why shouldn’t they be? Women’s equality is becoming ingrained in this country’s consciousness, and this new policy seems like taking a step backward. Of course, as a private organization, Logos School has the right to keep women off the school board. As we have seen in Augusta, people outside the organization have the right to complain and protest the actions.

Vision2020 has seen a number of complaints and protests, and fortunately, most spawn discussion instead of animosity. The pr! oblem is that Wilson and his allies on Vision2020 fail to answer legitimate questions.

Logos has the right to ban women from its board, but also has a social responsibility to explain its actions to its neighbors. A good community means caring about your neighbors and what they are doing.

When one group of women hit the glass ceiling, all of society is hurt. Mothers of Logos schoolchildren may agree with the policy, but those who don’t are always free to send their children to another school. Luckily, America as a whole does not have such limitations on women, and women are always free to associate with whatever schools, churches and associations they choose.

Wilson’s general failure on Vision 2020 to explain the intentions of Logos school and the Christ Church will alienate the school and church groups more than the alternate worldview of the progressive community will.

Logos teaches both Latin and rhetoric, so Wilson must know reductio ad absurdem and ad hominem are more likely to inflame than inform.

Moscow is basically looking for answers. Why ban women from your school board? Why make fun of people asking legitimate questions?

It may be a private school, but Logos is in the public eye. Logos doesn’t need to seek approval, but it would be prudent to seek and offer understanding.

M.M.

Editor’s note: Regretfully, the Argonaut was unable to reach Logos for comment.

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-769635327-1058491811=:78299-- From dale@courtneys.us Fri Jul 18 02:45:09 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:45:09 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse water Message-ID: <00f001c34cce$39478bf0$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C34C93.8CE8B3F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In today's Moscow-Pullman Daily News, Elsa Kirsten Peters (faculty = member in the Geology Department at WSU) raised the ante and laid the following = before the feet of the Moscow Civic Association.=20 I'd like to hear a response from someone from MCA. These are questions = that I have asked as well.=20 Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho _____ =20 A few facts about Palouse water=20 It's a nice change of pace to see Wayne Olson's letter to the editor (Opinion, July 9) asking for facts, not rhetoric, about "our aquifer."=20 First fact: There are at least two aquifers below Pullman and Moscow. = There may be more, but two are known to all drillers and geologists in the = area.=20 Second fact: The water level of the upper (more shallow) aquifer is not dropping at all. Indeed, water levels in the upper aquifer have done = nothing but rise in my lifetime (I'm 43).=20 Third fact: The water levels near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That statement, however, does not imply that the = water levels farther away are dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run out" of water in the lower aquifer. Ask another = geologist if you don't care to believe me on these points.=20 Fourth fact: Most water used in both Moscow and Pullman during the = summer is not consumed by "new housing developments," a favorite target of members = of the Moscow Civic Association (most of whom, of course, were new arrivals = on the Palouse themselves some years back). Most water used in the summer = goes to watering golf courses, not to flushing the toilets of new city = residents. More facts and less fear could greatly help move our public discussion = of water use forward. Thanks, Wayne, for asking.=20 Elsa Kirsten Peters=20 Pullman=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C34C93.8CE8B3F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

In today's = Moscow-Pullman=20 Daily News, Elsa Kirsten Peters (faculty member in the Geology = Department at=20 WSU) raised the ante and laid the following before the feet of the = Moscow Civic=20 Association.

I'd like to = hear a=20 response from someone from MCA. These are questions that I have asked as = well.=20

Best,
Dale=20 Courtney
Moscow, Idaho

A few facts about Palouse = water=20

It's a nice change of pace to see Wayne Olson's = letter to=20 the editor (Opinion, July 9) asking for facts, not rhetoric, about "our=20 aquifer."

First fact: There are at least two aquifers = below Pullman=20 and Moscow. There may be more, but two are known to all drillers and = geologists=20 in the area.

Second fact: The water level of the upper (more = shallow)=20 aquifer is not dropping at all. Indeed, water levels in the upper = aquifer have=20 done nothing but rise in my lifetime (I'm 43).

Third fact: The water levels near = Moscow-Pullman city=20 wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That statement, however, does = not imply=20 that the water levels farther away are dropping (it's a huge aquifer) = nor does=20 it imply that we "will run out" of water in the lower aquifer. Ask = another=20 geologist if you don't care to believe me on these points.

Fourth fact: Most water used in both Moscow and = Pullman=20 during the summer is not consumed by "new housing developments," a = favorite=20 target of members of the Moscow Civic Association (most of whom, of = course, were=20 new arrivals on the Palouse themselves some years back). Most water used = in the=20 summer goes to watering golf courses, not to flushing the toilets of new = city=20 residents.

More facts and less fear could greatly help = move our=20 public discussion of water use forward. Thanks, Wayne, for asking. =

Elsa Kirsten Peters

Pullman

------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C34C93.8CE8B3F0-- From timlohr@yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 04:24:37 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 20:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Talk Show 7/20/03:VISION2020 10 YR. ANNIVERSARY/V.2020 FOUNDERS Message-ID: <20030718032437.97557.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, On Sunday 7/20/03 MOSCOW MORNING VIEWS, a talk show on KUOI 89.3 FM in Moscow(web audio on KUOI.org) will feature the following guest: --In the first hour (9-10 am) we'll have open talk lines and commentary by host. --In the second hour (10-11 am)we will do a show in observance of the tenth anniversary of Vision 2020. Some of the founders of Vision2020--Bill London, Susan Palmer and Kenton Bird--will be on the air to discuss the founding of Vision2020, some of the successes and some of the controversies that the list-serve has experienced over its first ten years or existence. MOSCOW MORNING VIEWS is aired live every Sunday Morning from 9-11 am on KUOI 89.3 FM and streamed live on the internet on KUOI's website(KUOI.org) Call in phone #'s: 885-6392 or 885-6393 Anyone with comments, questions or suggestions for guests can send e-mail to: timlohr@yahoo.com OR call the studio after the show at the numbers above. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ltrwritr@moscow.com Fri Jul 18 07:55:43 2003 From: ltrwritr@moscow.com (Mark Rounds) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] guerilla warfare Message-ID: <200307180655.h6I6tfQW061099@whale2.fsr.net> I am just going to draw a few parallels here and if I perhaps you see what I do, we can all cry in my beer. Has anyone compared Rumsfeld to MacNamara? Is it a coincidence that we have another Texan (ala LBJ) is is appearing to be in a bit over his head? Should I continue to draw cultural comparisions to the majority of Americans in the early 60's and today? Quagmire? Mark ROunds At 09:13 AM 7/17/2003 -0700, Carl Westberg wrote: >Just a couple of weeks ago in a press conference, Donald Rumsfeld reacted to >the term guerilla warfare in regards to Iraq with his patented, endearing, >sneering, condescending, "you're not a patriot, are you" kind of response. >Hell no, this isn't guerilla warfare, said Rumsfeld, these are terrorist >attacks. Now that Gen. Abizaid had said that, indeed, this is guerilla >warfare, it's apparently not unpatriotic to use that term. To push the >envelope a little, would it still be unpatriotic to ask a one word question: > Quagmire? > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > From thansen@moscow.com Fri Jul 18 13:57:58 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 05:57:58 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] guerilla warfare In-Reply-To: <200307180655.h6I6tfQW061099@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: Having grown up in the 1960's, I fail to see any common links. During Vietnam, President Johnson was not in over his head. The evolution of the Vietnam War is a long story (again, involving the French). But that is for another topic, another day. The only common thread I see linking the Vietnam War (Johnson) and Persian Gulf War, Part 2 (George W) is that the President publicly disseminated the lies that he was told. General Westmoreland lied to Johnson and Director Tenet lied to Bush. Once the lies were discovered, how did these presidents respond? President Johnson assumed responsibility for lying to the American people and did not seek a second term. President Bush is attempting to covr it up, saying that the lie was insignificant, that he didn't know it was a lie. Yes. We are in a major quagmire (and I use that term for "mixed company" purposes. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Mark Rounds > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:56 PM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] guerilla warfare > > > I am just going to draw a few parallels here and if I perhaps you > see what I > do, we can all cry in my beer. Has anyone compared Rumsfeld to MacNamara? > Is it a coincidence that we have another Texan (ala LBJ) is is > appearing to > be in a bit over his head? Should I continue to draw cultural > comparisions > to the majority of Americans in the early 60's and today? Quagmire? > > Mark ROunds > > At 09:13 AM 7/17/2003 -0700, Carl Westberg wrote: > >Just a couple of weeks ago in a press conference, Donald > Rumsfeld reacted to > >the term guerilla warfare in regards to Iraq with his patented, > endearing, > >sneering, condescending, "you're not a patriot, are you" kind of > response. > >Hell no, this isn't guerilla warfare, said Rumsfeld, these are terrorist > >attacks. Now that Gen. Abizaid had said that, indeed, this is guerilla > >warfare, it's apparently not unpatriotic to use that term. To push the > >envelope a little, would it still be unpatriotic to ask a one > word question: > > Quagmire? > > > > > > > > > Carl > Westberg Jr. > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Fri Jul 18 17:16:44 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:16:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Risks Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FD9@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> "If you never try anything new, you'll miss out on many of life's great disappointments." - www.Despair.com Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From dale@courtneys.us Fri Jul 18 19:40:54 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:40:54 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Boehner-Davis School Choice Bill Passes Hurdle Message-ID: <015101c34d5c$1f49dc10$ca01a8c0@home> On 11 July, Chairman Tom Davis successfully passed his H.R. 2556--the D.C. Parental Choice Incentive Act of 2003 -- through the Government Reform and Oversight Committee. John Boehner (R-OH), a co-author of the bill and Chairman of the U.S. House Committee on Education and the Workforce, praised the passage: "I believe that the competition that this bill will create within the D.C. school system will improve the educational options for all students," Boehner said. The bill would enable residents of the District of Columbia whose family income is less than 185 percent of the poverty level to use vouchers of up to $7,500 to attend their school of choice. Fifteen Million Dollars in scholarships would be distributed through approved non-profit groups. The school choice program has been enthusiastically embraced by Washington D.C.'s Democrat Mayor, Anthony Williams: "I fully and strongly support [President Bush's] initiative to bring scholarships to this city." He argued that the government schools will end up in better shape because of the competition that is brought to bear. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From thansen@moscow.com Fri Jul 18 19:57:48 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:57:48 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Boehner-Davis School Choice Bill Passes Hurdle In-Reply-To: <015101c34d5c$1f49dc10$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: It should also be noted that Washington DC does not have a state government, thus no "state" funds for education. I believe that Wsshington DC is unique in itself, such that the federal government must provide for the residents of that city. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Dale Courtney > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 11:41 AM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: [Vision2020] Boehner-Davis School Choice Bill Passes Hurdle > Importance: High > > > On 11 July, Chairman Tom Davis successfully passed his H.R. 2556--the D.C. > Parental Choice Incentive Act of 2003 -- through the Government Reform and > Oversight Committee. > > John Boehner (R-OH), a co-author of the bill and Chairman of the > U.S. House > Committee on Education and the Workforce, praised the passage: "I believe > that the competition that this bill will create within the D.C. school > system will improve the educational options for all students," > Boehner said. > > The bill would enable residents of the District of Columbia whose family > income is less than 185 percent of the poverty level to use vouchers of up > to $7,500 to attend their school of choice. Fifteen Million Dollars in > scholarships would be distributed through approved non-profit groups. > > The school choice program has been enthusiastically embraced by Washington > D.C.'s Democrat Mayor, Anthony Williams: "I fully and strongly support > [President Bush's] initiative to bring scholarships to this > city." He argued > that the government schools will end up in better shape because of the > competition that is brought to bear. > > Best, > Dale Courtney > Moscow, Idaho > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > From dale@courtneys.us Fri Jul 18 20:27:49 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:27:49 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] =?US-ASCII?Q?Europe's_population_implosion:_Europe's_population_is_shrink?= =?US-ASCII?Q?ing_and_greying-with_grim_consequences?= Message-ID: <015501c34d62$acafc500$ca01a8c0@home> The UN, whose past population predictions have been fairly accurate, predicts that - The world's population will *increase* from just over 6 billion in 2000 to 8.9 billion by 2050. - During the same period, however, the population of the 27 countries that should be members of the EU by 2007 is predicted to *fall* by 6%, from 482m to 454m. For countries with particularly low fertility rates, the decline is dramatic. - By 2050 the number of Italians should fall from 57.5m in 2000 to around 45m - Spain's population should droop from 40m to 37m. - Germany, which currently has a population of around 80m, could find itself with just 25m inhabitants by the end of this century, according to recent projections by Deutsche Bank, which adds: "Even assuming (no doubt unrealistically high) annual immigration of 250,000, Germany's population would decline to about 50m by 2100." Combine a shrinking population with rising life expectancy, and the economic and political consequences are alarming. - In Europe there are currently 35 people of pensionable age for every 100 people of working age. - By 2050, on present demographic trends, there will be 75 pensioners for every 100 workers; - In Spain and Italy the ratio of pensioners to workers is projected to be one-to-one. Since pensions in Germany, France and Italy are paid out of current tax revenue, the obvious implication is that taxes will have to soar to fund the pretty generous pensions that Europeans have got used to. The cost is already stretching government finances. Deutsche Bank calculates that average earners in Germany are already paying around 29% of their wages into the state pension pot, while the figure in Italy is close to 33%. Either Europe must effect a radical cutback in pensions and health care for seniors, or Europe must import scores of millions of internationals (mostly Arabs and Africans) to care for the elderly and pay the taxes to sustain their welfare states. The UN's statistics department (http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/default.htm) and population division (http://www.un.org/esa/population/unpop.htm) have information on world demographic trends. See also the French Institute of International Relations (http://www.ifri.org/frontDispatcher). The above numbers and trends were reported in the 17 July edition of The Economist. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From ddouglas@pacsim.com Fri Jul 18 20:36:19 2003 From: ddouglas@pacsim.com (David Douglas) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:36:19 -0400 Subject: [Vision2020] Boehner-Davis School Choice Bill Passes Hurdle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002d01c34d63$dd56f330$dee6c4d1@LATITUDECPT5> Tom Hansen writes: It should also be noted that Washington DC does not have a state government, thus no "state" funds for education. I believe that Wsshington DC is unique in itself, such that the federal government must provide for the residents of that city. This seems like a distinction without a difference. The funding from the point of view of the school system comes either from city or federal funds (I suspect the latter) and not from the student's families--just like any other government/public school. (Also, I might be wrong, but I think I've heard that their per student spending on education is relatively high). It isn't clear to me how the schools would be better--or worse--with a "state" as the source of what is essentially state funding. -- David Douglas From sprinkley_2000@yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 21:31:06 2003 From: sprinkley_2000@yahoo.com (sprinkley) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] World AIDS Day Community Planning Meeting Update Message-ID: <20030718203106.24368.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1463698714-1058560266=:24353 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Id: Content-Disposition: inline In the attachment you will find the update for the World AIDS Day Community Planning Meeting on July 15th. The next meeting will be Aug. 12th at noon at the UI Gallery. If you have questions or agenda items please email them to Spring Dowse at stonewall@moscow.com or call 883-3438. Thanks for all of your time and hard work. And for those of you who haven't made it to a meeting yet, please still join us at the next meeting. We need your support and insight. Spring Dowse Stonewall Health Project Coordinator Sojourners' Alliance 627 N. Van Buren Moscow, Idaho 83843 (208) 883-3438 stonewall@moscow.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAA --0-1463698714-1058560266=:24353-- From davidcb@acm.org Fri Jul 18 21:49:28 2003 From: davidcb@acm.org (David Camden-Britton) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:49:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse water In-Reply-To: <00f001c34cce$39478bf0$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030718134730.00b5e278@mail.turbonet.com> Great... Nice.  Take a fine emotional issue that we can rant and rave about and inject facts into it!  Fie upon this so-called "Geologist"!  What is that anyway?  Something like a geomancer?  She's a wizard!  Yes! 

PS: Thanks for the post, Dale.

At 06:45 PM 7/17/2003 -0700, you wrote:
A few facts about Palouse water

It's a nice change of pace to see Wayne Olson's letter to the editor (Opinion, July 9) asking for facts, not rhetoric, about "our aquifer."

First fact: There are at least two aquifers below Pullman and Moscow. There may be more, but two are known to all drillers and geologists in the area.

Second fact: The water level of the upper (more shallow) aquifer is not dropping at all. Indeed, water levels in the upper aquifer have done nothing but rise in my lifetime (I'm 43).

Third fact: The water levels near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That statement, however, does not imply that the water levels farther away are dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run out" of water in the lower aquifer. Ask another geologist if you don't care to believe me on these points.

Fourth fact: Most water used in both Moscow and Pullman during the summer is not consumed by "new housing developments," a favorite target of members of the Moscow Civic Association (most of whom, of course, were new arrivals on the Palouse themselves some years back). Most water used in the summer goes to watering golf courses, not to flushing the toilets of new city residents.

More facts and less fear could greatly help move our public discussion of water use forward. Thanks, Wayne, for asking.

Elsa Kirsten Peters

Pullman

David Camden-Britton -=)*(=-  davidcb@acm.org From dale@courtneys.us Fri Jul 18 21:58:34 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:58:34 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse water In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030718134730.00b5e278@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: <016201c34d6f$5a983920$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0163_01C34D34.AE396120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David, =20 Most people don't like to have facts injected into an emotional issue. = It's like having needles around filled balloons.=20 =20 I would really like to see someone from the Moscow Civic Association, or others who are bellowing about the water problem, to answer the question about the upper aquifer.=20 =20 When the Daily News broke the fact that the upper aquifer was actually rising, it was immediately squelched and ignored. =20 Our total water level is the combination of the lower and upper aquifer = -- unless someone knows a reason for focusing only on the lower aquifer as = our water supply. Perhaps the left has a emotional attachment for the lower strata... =20 Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of David Camden-Britton Sent: Friday, 18 July, 2003 13:49 To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse water Great... Nice. Take a fine emotional issue that we can rant and rave = about and inject facts into it! Fie upon this so-called "Geologist"! What is that anyway? Something like a geomancer? She's a wizard! Yes! =20 PS: Thanks for the post, Dale.=20 At 06:45 PM 7/17/2003 -0700, you wrote: A few facts about Palouse water=20 It's a nice change of pace to see Wayne Olson's letter to the editor (Opinion, July 9) asking for facts, not rhetoric, about "our aquifer."=20 First fact: There are at least two aquifers below Pullman and Moscow. = There may be more, but two are known to all drillers and geologists in the = area.=20 Second fact: The water level of the upper (more shallow) aquifer is not dropping at all. Indeed, water levels in the upper aquifer have done = nothing but rise in my lifetime (I'm 43).=20 Third fact: The water levels near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That statement, however, does not imply that the = water levels farther away are dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run out" of water in the lower aquifer. Ask another = geologist if you don't care to believe me on these points.=20 Fourth fact: Most water used in both Moscow and Pullman during the = summer is not consumed by "new housing developments," a favorite target of members = of the Moscow Civic Association (most of whom, of course, were new arrivals = on the Palouse themselves some years back). Most water used in the summer = goes to watering golf courses, not to flushing the toilets of new city = residents. More facts and less fear could greatly help move our public discussion = of water use forward. Thanks, Wayne, for asking.=20 Elsa Kirsten Peters=20 Pullman=20 David Camden-Britton -=3D)*(=3D- davidcb@acm.org _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0163_01C34D34.AE396120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

David,
 
Most=20 people don't like to have facts injected into an emotional issue. It's = like=20 having needles around filled balloons.
 
I=20 would really like to see someone from the Moscow Civic = Association, or=20 others who are bellowing about the water problem, to answer the question = about=20 the upper aquifer.
 
When=20 the Daily News broke the fact that the upper aquifer was = actually=20 rising, it was immediately squelched and ignored.
 
Our=20 total water level is the combination of the lower and upper aquifer -- = unless=20 someone knows a reason for focusing only on the lower aquifer as = our=20 water supply. Perhaps the left has a emotional attachment for the lower=20 strata...
 
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On = Behalf=20 Of David Camden-Britton
Sent: Friday, 18 July, 2003=20 13:49
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: = [Vision2020]=20 A few facts about Palouse water

Great... = Nice.  Take=20 a fine emotional issue that we can rant and rave about and inject = facts into=20 it!  Fie upon this so-called "Geologist"!  What is that=20 anyway?  Something like a geomancer?  She's a wizard! =20 Yes! 

PS: Thanks for the post, Dale.

At 06:45 PM=20 7/17/2003 -0700, you wrote:
A few=20 facts about Palouse water

It's a nice=20 change of pace to see Wayne Olson's letter to the editor (Opinion, = July 9)=20 asking for facts, not rhetoric, about "our aquifer." =

First fact: There are at least two aquifers below = Pullman and=20 Moscow. There may be more, but two are known to all drillers and = geologists=20 in the area.

Second fact: The = water level=20 of the upper (more shallow) aquifer is not dropping at all. Indeed, = water=20 levels in the upper aquifer have done nothing but rise in my = lifetime (I'm=20 43).

Third fact: The water = levels near=20 Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That = statement,=20 however, does not imply that the water levels farther away are = dropping=20 (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run out" of = water in=20 the lower aquifer. Ask another geologist if you don't care to = believe me on=20 these points.

Fourth fact: Most = water=20 used in both Moscow and Pullman during the summer is not consumed by = "new=20 housing developments," a favorite target of members of the Moscow = Civic=20 Association (most of whom, of course, were new arrivals on the = Palouse=20 themselves some years back). Most water used in the summer goes to = watering=20 golf courses, not to flushing the toilets of new city residents.=20

More facts and less fear could = greatly=20 help move our public discussion of water use forward. Thanks, Wayne, = for=20 asking.

Elsa Kirsten Peters=20

Pullman =

David Camden-Britton = -=3D)*(=3D-  davidcb@acm.org=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since=20 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20

------=_NextPart_000_0163_01C34D34.AE396120-- From skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us Fri Jul 18 22:22:57 2003 From: skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us (Stephanie Kalasz) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:22:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Monday Agendas Message-ID: <93812436F60FD511A83A0002B3029EFC73155D@DCFS01> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34D72.C2167CD0 Content-Type: text/plain Please note that the Administrative Committee and Public Works/Finance Committee meetings have been cancelled due to the budget workshop. Stephanie Kalasz Interim City Clerk City of Moscow (208) 883-7015 MOSCOW CITY COUNCIL BUDGET WORKSHOP AGENDA Monday, July 21, 2003 8:30 a.m. - 4:30 p.m. Tuesday, July 22, 2003 8:30 a.m. - Noon (if necessary) Moscow City Hall Council Chambers 206 East 3rd Street MONDAY, JULY 21, 2003 8:30 a.m. 1. Welcome - Jack Hill, Council President 2. Mayor's Budget Presentation/Council Discussion 10:30 a.m. BREAK 10:45 a.m. RECONVENE Mayor's Budget Presentation/Council Discussion Continued 12:00 noon BREAK - LUNCH (served in foyer 2nd floor) 1:00 p.m. RECONVENE 3:00 p.m. BREAK 3:15 p.m. RECONVENE - Mayor's Budget Presentation/Council Discussion Continued 4:30 p.m. ADJOURN TUESDAY, July 22, 2001 8:30 a.m. RECONVENE - Mayor's Budget Presentation/Council Discussion Continued 10:00 a.m. Confirm Date set for Public Hearing on 2003/2004 Moscow City Budget (Aug 4, 2003) 12:00 p.m. ADJOURN AGENDA MOSCOW CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL MEETING Monday, July 21, 2003 7:00 p.m. City Hall Council Chambers 206 East Third Street, Second Floor PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE 1. Consent Agenda: Any item will be removed from the consent agenda at the request of any member of the Council and that item will be considered separately later. Approval by roll call vote. A. Approval of Minutes of June 23, 2003 and July 7, 2003 - Stephanie Kalasz B. Approval of Quarterly Financial Report - Don Palmer 2. 7:00 p.m. Public Hearing - Gritman 'A' Street Comprehensive Plan Amendment and 'A' Street Rezone - Joel Plaskon Gritman Medical Center owns property located on the northeast corner of War Bonnet Drive and West 'A' Street which is currently designated as High Density Residential (HR) on the Comprehensive Plan Map and zoned Multiple Family Residential (R-4) on the Zoning Map. The applicant proposes to amend the land use designation to Extensive Commercial (EC) and rezone the property to Motor Business (MB) with the intention of constructing an ambulatory surgery center for which they have already obtained the Conditional Use Permit necessary to construct the facility in the existing R-4 Zone. The proposed land use designation amendment and rezone would allow the intended facility as a use by right which would give them greater flexibility in use of the building and any expansion thereof. The Planning and Zoning Commission held a public hearing on these matters on June 25, 2003 and recommended approval of both the Comprehensive Plan Land Use Designation amendment and rezone without conditions. Action: 1. Approve or reject Resolution to amend Comprehensive Plan Lane Use Designation Boundary; or take such other action deemed appropriate (as per the attached options in the Zoning Code). 2. Approve the Ordinance amending the Zoning District Boundary under suspension of the rules requiring three complete and separate readings and that it be read by title only, and authorize the Mayor's signature thereon; or reject the proposed Ordinance; or take such other action deemed appropriate. 3. 7:00 p.m. Public Hearing - Hovey N. Polk St. Rezone - Joel Plaskon Scott Hovey is requesting to rezone a portion of his property which fronts North Polk Extension and Rodeo Drive from R-1 to R-3 with the intention of constructing two duplexes along Rodeo Drive. The lot division was approved by the City Council on July 7, 2003, under the existing R-1 Zoning District. The subject property is adjacent to existing R-3 zoning to the west and south. The Planning and Zoning Commission held a public hearing on this rezone application and recommended approval of the rezone on June 25, 2003. ACTION: Approve the Ordinance amending the Zoning District Boundary under suspension of the rules requiring three complete and separate readings and that it be read by title only, and authorize the Mayor's signature thereon; or reject the proposed Ordinance; or take such other action deemed appropriate. 4. COPS Option for HIRC Project - Palmer Staff has presented analytical review on financing for the construction of the Hamilton Indoor Recreation Center to City Council on several occasions. This presentation is primarily for the benefit of the public and to obtain a final decision from the City Council. ACTION: Approve or deny the use of Certificates of Participation to fund the HIRC project or take such other action deemed appropriate. 5. Final Subdivision Plat (Peterson's First Addition) Proposal at the North End of Baker Street- Joel Plaskon Bob Peterson has applied to subdivide a 12-acre parcel of land located at the north end of Baker Street and zoned R-4. The proposal would result in the creation of seven lots ranging in size from 0.88 to 2.33 acres. The final plat is consistent with the preliminary plat and shows compliance with the conditions of dedicating right-of-way to the adjoining Government Lot 2 and providing the right-of-way and easement necessary for the off-site cul-de-sac. The Planning and Zoning Commission recommended approval of the final plat on July 9, 2003. ACTION: Approve the final plat, with or without conditions and subject to adoption of Reasoned Statement of Relevant Criteria and Standards; or reject the final plat subject to adoption of Reasoned Statement of Relevant Criteria and Standards; or take such other action deemed appropriate. 6. Blake Appeal Hearing for Solicitor's License - Stephanie Kalasz Mr. Blake's Solicitor's License was revoked because he did not disclose his criminal history. He has filed an appeal to have his license reinstated. ACTION: Approve or deny Mr. Blake's appeal to reinstate his City Solicitor's License or take such other action deemed appropriate. APPOINTMENTS: Mayor's appointments. COMMITTEE REPORTS: Mayor Administrative Committee Public Works/Finance Committee Other Boards & Commissions EXECUTIVE SESSION - Legal Issue - Pursuant to Idaho Code Section 67-2345(1) NOTICE: Individuals attending the meeting who require special assistance to accommodate physical, hearing, or other impairments, please contact the City Clerk, at (208) 883-7015, as soon as possible so that arrangements may be made. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34D72.C2167CD0 Content-Type: text/html

Please note that the Administrative Committee and Public Works/Finance Committee meetings have been cancelled due to the budget workshop.

 

Stephanie Kalasz

Interim City Clerk

City of Moscow

(208) 883-7015

 

MOSCOW CITY COUNCIL

BUDGET WORKSHOP

AGENDA

 

Monday, July 21, 2003          8:30 a.m. - 4:30 p.m.

Tuesday, July 22, 2003          8:30 a.m. - Noon (if necessary)

 

Moscow City Hall Council Chambers

206 East 3rd Street

 

MONDAY, JULY 21, 2003

8:30 a.m.

1.                  Welcome - Jack Hill, Council President

2.                  Mayor's Budget Presentation/Council Discussion

 

10:30 a.m.        BREAK

 

10:45 a.m.        RECONVENE

                        Mayor's Budget Presentation/Council Discussion Continued

 

12:00 noon       BREAK - LUNCH (served in foyer 2nd floor)

 

1:00 p.m.          RECONVENE

 

3:00 p.m.          BREAK

 

3:15 p.m.          RECONVENE - Mayor's Budget Presentation/Council Discussion Continued

 

4:30 p.m.          ADJOURN

 

 

TUESDAY, July 22, 2001

8:30 a.m.          RECONVENE - Mayor's Budget Presentation/Council Discussion Continued

 

10:00 a.m.        Confirm Date set for Public Hearing on 2003/2004 Moscow City Budget (Aug 4, 2003)

 

12:00 p.m.        ADJOURN

 

 

AGENDA

MOSCOW CITY COUNCIL

SPECIAL MEETING

Monday, July 21, 2003                                                                                                                   7:00 p.m.

City Hall Council Chambers

206 East Third Street, Second Floor

PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

 

1.   Consent Agenda:  Any item will be removed from the consent agenda at the request of any member of the Council and that item will be considered separately later.  Approval by roll call vote.

 

A.        Approval of Minutes of June 23, 2003 and July 7, 2003 - Stephanie Kalasz

 

            B.         Approval of Quarterly Financial Report - Don Palmer

 

2.   7:00 p.m. Public Hearing - Gritman 'A' Street Comprehensive Plan Amendment and 'A' Street Rezone - Joel Plaskon

Gritman Medical Center owns property located on the northeast corner of War Bonnet Drive and West 'A' Street which is currently designated as High Density Residential (HR) on the Comprehensive Plan Map and zoned Multiple Family Residential (R-4) on the Zoning Map.  The applicant proposes to amend the land use designation to Extensive Commercial (EC) and rezone the property to Motor Business (MB) with the intention of constructing an ambulatory surgery center for which they have already obtained the Conditional Use Permit necessary to construct the facility in the existing R-4 Zone.  The proposed land use designation amendment and rezone would allow the intended facility as a use by right which would give them greater flexibility in use of the building and any expansion thereof.  The Planning and Zoning Commission held a public hearing on these matters on June 25, 2003 and recommended approval of both the Comprehensive Plan Land Use Designation amendment and rezone without conditions.

 

Action: 

1.   Approve or reject Resolution to amend Comprehensive Plan Lane Use Designation Boundary; or take such other action deemed appropriate (as per the attached options in the Zoning Code).

2.   Approve the Ordinance amending the Zoning District Boundary under suspension of the rules requiring three complete and separate readings and that it be read by title only, and authorize the Mayor's signature thereon; or reject the proposed Ordinance; or take such other action deemed appropriate.

 

3.   7:00 p.m. Public Hearing - Hovey N. Polk St. Rezone - Joel Plaskon

Scott Hovey is requesting to rezone a portion of his property which fronts North Polk Extension and Rodeo Drive from R-1 to R-3 with the intention of constructing two duplexes along Rodeo Drive.  The lot division was approved by the City Council on July 7, 2003, under the existing R-1 Zoning District.  The subject property is adjacent to existing R-3 zoning to the west and south.  The Planning and Zoning Commission held a public hearing on this rezone application and recommended approval of the rezone on June 25, 2003.

 

ACTION:  Approve the Ordinance amending the Zoning District Boundary under suspension of the rules requiring three complete and separate readings and that it be read by title only, and authorize the Mayor's signature thereon; or reject the proposed Ordinance; or take such other action deemed appropriate.

 

 

4.   COPS Option for HIRC Project - Palmer

Staff has presented analytical review on financing for the construction of the Hamilton Indoor Recreation Center to City Council on several occasions.  This presentation is primarily for the benefit of the public and to obtain a final decision from the City Council.

 

      ACTION:  Approve or deny the use of Certificates of Participation to fund the HIRC project or take such other action deemed appropriate.

 

5.   Final Subdivision Plat (Peterson's First Addition) Proposal at the North End of Baker Street- Joel Plaskon

Bob Peterson has applied to subdivide a 12-acre parcel of land located at the north end of Baker Street and zoned R-4.  The proposal would result in the creation of seven lots ranging in size from 0.88 to 2.33 acres.  The final plat is consistent with the preliminary plat and shows compliance with the conditions of dedicating right-of-way to the adjoining Government Lot 2 and providing the right-of-way and easement necessary for the off-site cul-de-sac.  The Planning and Zoning Commission recommended approval of the final plat on July 9, 2003.

 

ACTION:  Approve the final plat, with or without conditions and subject to adoption of Reasoned Statement of Relevant Criteria and Standards; or reject the final plat subject to adoption of Reasoned Statement of Relevant Criteria and Standards; or take such other action deemed appropriate.

 

6.   Blake Appeal Hearing for Solicitor's License - Stephanie Kalasz

      Mr. Blake's Solicitor's License was revoked because he did not disclose his criminal history.  He has filed an appeal to have his license reinstated.

 

      ACTION:  Approve or deny Mr. Blake's appeal to reinstate his City Solicitor's License or take such other action deemed appropriate.

 

APPOINTMENTS:    Mayor's appointments.

 

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

            Mayor

            Administrative Committee

            Public Works/Finance Committee

Other Boards & Commissions

 

EXECUTIVE SESSION - Legal Issue - Pursuant to Idaho Code Section 67-2345(1)

 

 

NOTICE:  Individuals attending the meeting who require special assistance to accommodate physical, hearing, or other impairments, please contact the City Clerk, at (208) 883-7015, as soon as possible so that arrangements may be made.

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C34D72.C2167CD0-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Fri Jul 18 22:53:14 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:53:14 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Europe's population implosion: Europe's population is shrinking and greying-with grim consequences Message-ID: And the bad news is: If am still around in 2050 I probably won't know what year it is or what 8.9 billion is. : ) Which is something that I look forward to. A day when no race, religion, or culture rules the majority of the World, but instead, everyone is a minority in their religion, nation, and race. A day when all must respect all others to be respected themselves. : ) Donovan J Arnold >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: [Vision2020] Europe's population implosion: Europe's population is >shrinking and greying-with grim consequences >Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:27:49 -0700 > > The UN, whose past population predictions have been fairly accurate, >predicts that >- The world's population will *increase* from just over 6 billion in 2000 >to >8.9 billion by 2050. >- During the same period, however, the population of the 27 countries that >should be members of the EU by 2007 is predicted to *fall* by 6%, from 482m >to 454m. > > For countries with particularly low fertility rates, the decline is >dramatic. >- By 2050 the number of Italians should fall from 57.5m in 2000 to around >45m >- Spain's population should droop from 40m to 37m. >- Germany, which currently has a population of around 80m, could find >itself >with just 25m inhabitants by the end of this century, according to recent >projections by Deutsche Bank, which adds: "Even assuming (no doubt >unrealistically high) annual immigration of 250,000, Germany's population >would decline to about 50m by 2100." > > Combine a shrinking population with rising life expectancy, and the >economic and political consequences are alarming. >- In Europe there are currently 35 people of pensionable age for every 100 >people of working age. >- By 2050, on present demographic trends, there will be 75 pensioners for >every 100 workers; >- In Spain and Italy the ratio of pensioners to workers is projected to be >one-to-one. > > Since pensions in Germany, France and Italy are paid out of current >tax revenue, the obvious implication is that taxes will have to soar to >fund >the pretty generous pensions that Europeans have got used to. The cost is >already stretching government finances. Deutsche Bank calculates that >average earners in Germany are already paying around 29% of their wages >into >the state pension pot, while the figure in Italy is close to 33%. > > Either Europe must effect a radical cutback in pensions and health >care for seniors, or Europe must import scores of millions of >internationals >(mostly Arabs and Africans) to care for the elderly and pay the taxes to >sustain their welfare states. > > The UN's statistics department >(http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/default.htm) and population >division >(http://www.un.org/esa/population/unpop.htm) have information on world >demographic trends. > See also the French Institute of International Relations >(http://www.ifri.org/frontDispatcher). > The above numbers and trends were reported in the 17 July edition of >The Economist. > >Best, >Dale Courtney >Moscow, Idaho > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dougwils@moscow.com Fri Jul 18 23:17:34 2003 From: dougwils@moscow.com (Douglas) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:17:34 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Europe's population implosion: Europe's population is shrinking and greying-with grim consequences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030718151448.03f84948@mail.moscow.com> Dear visionaries, Donovan hopes for "a day when all must respect all others to be respected themselves." And we all know how good the human race is at *that.* As we used to say in the Navy, stand by for heavy rolls. Cordially, Douglas Wilson >Donovan J Arnold > > >>From: "Dale Courtney" >>To: >>Subject: [Vision2020] Europe's population implosion: Europe's population >>is shrinking and greying-with grim consequences >>Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:27:49 -0700 >> >> The UN, whose past population predictions have been fairly accurate, >>predicts that >>- The world's population will *increase* from just over 6 billion in 2000 to >>8.9 billion by 2050. >>- During the same period, however, the population of the 27 countries that >>should be members of the EU by 2007 is predicted to *fall* by 6%, from 482m >>to 454m. >> >> For countries with particularly low fertility rates, the decline is >>dramatic. >>- By 2050 the number of Italians should fall from 57.5m in 2000 to around >>45m >>- Spain's population should droop from 40m to 37m. >>- Germany, which currently has a population of around 80m, could find itself >>with just 25m inhabitants by the end of this century, according to recent >>projections by Deutsche Bank, which adds: "Even assuming (no doubt >>unrealistically high) annual immigration of 250,000, Germany's population >>would decline to about 50m by 2100." >> >> Combine a shrinking population with rising life expectancy, and the >>economic and political consequences are alarming. >>- In Europe there are currently 35 people of pensionable age for every 100 >>people of working age. >>- By 2050, on present demographic trends, there will be 75 pensioners for >>every 100 workers; >>- In Spain and Italy the ratio of pensioners to workers is projected to be >>one-to-one. >> >> Since pensions in Germany, France and Italy are paid out of current >>tax revenue, the obvious implication is that taxes will have to soar to fund >>the pretty generous pensions that Europeans have got used to. The cost is >>already stretching government finances. Deutsche Bank calculates that >>average earners in Germany are already paying around 29% of their wages into >>the state pension pot, while the figure in Italy is close to 33%. >> >> Either Europe must effect a radical cutback in pensions and health >>care for seniors, or Europe must import scores of millions of internationals >>(mostly Arabs and Africans) to care for the elderly and pay the taxes to >>sustain their welfare states. >> >> The UN's statistics department >>(http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/default.htm) and population division >>(http://www.un.org/esa/population/unpop.htm) have information on world >>demographic trends. >> See also the French Institute of International Relations >>(http://www.ifri.org/frontDispatcher). >> The above numbers and trends were reported in the 17 July edition of >>The Economist. >> >>Best, >>Dale Courtney >>Moscow, Idaho >> >> >>_____________________________________________________ >> List services made available by First Step Internet, >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >_________________________________________________________________ >Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Fri Jul 18 23:09:57 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:09:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Europe's population implosion: Europe's populat ion is shrinking and greying-with grim consequences Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FDA@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Greetings Visionaires: To me respect is not a "quid pro quo" thing. "Respect me and I will respect you" doesn't work and never will. Respect is earned. Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: Douglas [mailto:dougwils@moscow.com] Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 3:18 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Europe's population implosion: Europe's population is shrinking and greying-with grim consequences Dear visionaries, Donovan hopes for "a day when all must respect all others to be respected themselves." And we all know how good the human race is at *that.* As we used to say in the Navy, stand by for heavy rolls. Cordially, Douglas Wilson >Donovan J Arnold > > >>From: "Dale Courtney" >>To: >>Subject: [Vision2020] Europe's population implosion: Europe's population >>is shrinking and greying-with grim consequences >>Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:27:49 -0700 >> >> The UN, whose past population predictions have been fairly accurate, >>predicts that >>- The world's population will *increase* from just over 6 billion in 2000 to >>8.9 billion by 2050. >>- During the same period, however, the population of the 27 countries that >>should be members of the EU by 2007 is predicted to *fall* by 6%, from 482m >>to 454m. >> >> For countries with particularly low fertility rates, the decline is >>dramatic. >>- By 2050 the number of Italians should fall from 57.5m in 2000 to around >>45m >>- Spain's population should droop from 40m to 37m. >>- Germany, which currently has a population of around 80m, could find itself >>with just 25m inhabitants by the end of this century, according to recent >>projections by Deutsche Bank, which adds: "Even assuming (no doubt >>unrealistically high) annual immigration of 250,000, Germany's population >>would decline to about 50m by 2100." >> >> Combine a shrinking population with rising life expectancy, and the >>economic and political consequences are alarming. >>- In Europe there are currently 35 people of pensionable age for every 100 >>people of working age. >>- By 2050, on present demographic trends, there will be 75 pensioners for >>every 100 workers; >>- In Spain and Italy the ratio of pensioners to workers is projected to be >>one-to-one. >> >> Since pensions in Germany, France and Italy are paid out of current >>tax revenue, the obvious implication is that taxes will have to soar to fund >>the pretty generous pensions that Europeans have got used to. The cost is >>already stretching government finances. Deutsche Bank calculates that >>average earners in Germany are already paying around 29% of their wages into >>the state pension pot, while the figure in Italy is close to 33%. >> >> Either Europe must effect a radical cutback in pensions and health >>care for seniors, or Europe must import scores of millions of internationals >>(mostly Arabs and Africans) to care for the elderly and pay the taxes to >>sustain their welfare states. >> >> The UN's statistics department >>(http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/default.htm) and population division >>(http://www.un.org/esa/population/unpop.htm) have information on world >>demographic trends. >> See also the French Institute of International Relations >>(http://www.ifri.org/frontDispatcher). >> The above numbers and trends were reported in the 17 July edition of >>The Economist. >> >>Best, >>Dale Courtney >>Moscow, Idaho >> >> >>_____________________________________________________ >> List services made available by First Step Internet, >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >_________________________________________________________________ >Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 23:46:01 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] RFM Part II Message-ID: <20030718224601.26274.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> --0-863926493-1058568361=:22515 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From:"President" | This is spam | Add to Address BookTo:"Douglas Stambler" , president@foundationnw.org, vicepresident@foundationnw.org, latahfoundation@moscow.comSubject:RE: problems with Radio Free MoscowDate:Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:32:57 -0700 [input] [input] [input] [input] [input] Mr. Stambler, Thank you for your concern about Radio Free Moscow. We evaluate all our grantees at the end of the grant period and are always interested in community input about our grants. We will review any additional information on Radio Free Moscow that you may wish to provide us. Any additional information should be directed to Candy Hanford, Vice President. Peter Jackson President & CEO Foundation Northwest -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:ccm_moscow@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 5:52 PM To: president@foundationnw.org; vicepresident@foundationnw.org; latahfoundation@moscow.com Subject: problems with Radio Free Moscow Hello: It is posted on the Radio Free Moscow website that you have given money to support that project. I want you to know that the original founder of Radio Free Moscow has been excluded in this current incarnation of the station, and that RFM as it stands now will not diversify the media market in the Moscow area, but rather make it less representative of the population here. Peter Basoa, the original founder of RFM, can be reached at Clark House in Moscow. He is recouping from a stroke, but has already started his radio show again on KUOI. He is very upset about what people like Bob Hoffman and Garrett Cleavenger are doing with his station. I do have to say that unless Peter Basoa is contacted by your organization, I will have to lead a boycott against your organization, as RFM is currently under boycott as well. All the best, Douglas Stambler (Moscow, Idaho) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-863926493-1058568361=:22515 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
From: "President" <president@foundationnw.org> | This is spam | Add to Address Book
To: "Douglas Stambler" <ccm_moscow@yahoo.com>, president@foundationnw.org, vicepresident@foundationnw.org, latahfoundation@moscow.com
Subject: RE: problems with Radio Free Moscow
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:32:57 -0700

Mr. Stambler,
Thank you for your concern about Radio Free Moscow.  We evaluate all our grantees at the end of the grant period and are always interested in community input about our grants.  We will review any additional information on Radio Free Moscow that you may wish to provide us.  Any additional information should be directed to Candy Hanford, Vice President.
 
Peter Jackson
President & CEO
Foundation Northwest 
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:ccm_moscow@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 5:52 PM
To: president@foundationnw.org; vicepresident@foundationnw.org; latahfoundation@moscow.com
Subject: problems with Radio Free Moscow

Hello:
 
It is posted on the Radio Free Moscow website that you have given money to support that project.  I want you to know that the original founder of Radio Free Moscow has been excluded in this current incarnation of the station, and that RFM as it stands now will not diversify the media market in the Moscow area, but rather make it less representative of the population here.
 
Peter Basoa, the original founder of RFM, can be reached at Clark House in Moscow.  He is recouping from a stroke, but has already started his radio show again on KUOI.  He is very upset about what people like Bob Hoffman and Garrett Cleavenger are doing with his station.
 
I do have to say that unless Peter Basoa is contacted by your organization, I will have to lead a boycott against your organization, as RFM is currently under boycott as well.
 
All the best,
Douglas Stambler
(Moscow, Idaho)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-863926493-1058568361=:22515-- From london@moscow.com Sat Jul 19 00:21:48 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:21:48 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse water References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030718134730.00b5e278@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: <3F18810C.DB9EEEF7@moscow.com> --------------60C136FA373601E7335C1539 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please do not be so quick to assume that Elsa Peters is injecting fact into this discussion of aquifers (in her letter reprinted below). Elsa Peters reflects her own biases more than facts in her letter about the aquifer. She asserts that more water is pumped from the aquifer for golf courses than is used in the ever-expanding number of homes (each with toilets, lawns, sinks, etc). The UI golf course uses recycled effluent water--not water pumped from the aquifer. The Elks golf course has its own well that pumps from the recharging upper aquifer. The homes in Moscow rely on water pumped from the deep wells that are, in fact, dropping more than a foot in depth annually. Concern for this diminishing aquifer source is not an irrational fear, it's just common sense. BL David Camden-Britton wrote: > Great... Nice. Take a fine emotional issue that we can rant and rave > about and inject facts into it! Fie upon this so-called "Geologist"! > What is that anyway? Something like a geomancer? She's a wizard! > Yes! > > PS: Thanks for the post, Dale. > > At 06:45 PM 7/17/2003 -0700, you wrote: > >> A few facts about Palouse water >> >> It's a nice change of pace to see Wayne Olson's letter to the editor >> (Opinion, July 9) asking for facts, not rhetoric, about "our >> aquifer." >> >> First fact: There are at least two aquifers below Pullman and >> Moscow. There may be more, but two are known to all drillers and >> geologists in the area. >> >> Second fact: The water level of the upper (more shallow) aquifer is >> not dropping at all. Indeed, water levels in the upper aquifer have >> done nothing but rise in my lifetime (I'm 43). >> >> Third fact: The water levels near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the >> lower aquifer are dropping. That statement, however, does not imply >> that the water levels farther away are dropping (it's a huge >> aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run out" of water in the >> lower aquifer. Ask another geologist if you don't care to believe me >> on these points. >> >> Fourth fact: Most water used in both Moscow and Pullman during the >> summer is not consumed by "new housing developments," a favorite >> target of members of the Moscow Civic Association (most of whom, of >> course, were new arrivals on the Palouse themselves some years >> back). Most water used in the summer goes to watering golf courses, >> not to flushing the toilets of new city residents. >> >> More facts and less fear could greatly help move our public >> discussion of water use forward. Thanks, Wayne, for asking. >> >> Elsa Kirsten Peters >> >> Pullman > > David Camden-Britton -=)*(=- davidcb@acm.org > _____________________________________________________ List services > made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the > Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------60C136FA373601E7335C1539 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please do not be so quick to assume that Elsa Peters is injecting fact into this discussion of aquifers (in her letter reprinted below).
Elsa Peters reflects her own biases more than facts in her letter about the aquifer.
She asserts that more water is pumped from the aquifer for golf courses than is used in the ever-expanding number of homes (each with toilets, lawns, sinks, etc).  The UI golf course uses recycled effluent water--not water pumped from the aquifer.  The Elks golf course has its own well that pumps from the recharging upper aquifer.  The homes in Moscow rely on water pumped from the deep wells that are, in fact, dropping more than a foot in depth annually.
Concern for this diminishing aquifer source is not an irrational fear, it's just common sense.
BL

David Camden-Britton wrote:

Great... Nice.  Take a fine emotional issue that we can rant and rave about and inject facts into it!  Fie upon this so-called "Geologist"!  What is that anyway?  Something like a geomancer?  She's a wizard!  Yes!

PS: Thanks for the post, Dale.

At 06:45 PM 7/17/2003 -0700, you wrote:

A few facts about Palouse water

It's a nice change of pace to see Wayne Olson's letter to the editor (Opinion, July 9) asking for facts, not rhetoric, about "our aquifer."

First fact: There are at least two aquifers below Pullman and Moscow. There may be more, but two are known to all drillers and geologists in the area.

Second fact: The water level of the upper (more shallow) aquifer is not dropping at all. Indeed, water levels in the upper aquifer have done nothing but rise in my lifetime (I'm 43).

Third fact: The water levels near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That statement, however, does not imply that the water levels farther away are dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run out" of water in the lower aquifer. Ask another geologist if you don't care to believe me on these points.

Fourth fact: Most water used in both Moscow and Pullman during the summer is not consumed by "new housing developments," a favorite target of members of the Moscow Civic Association (most of whom, of course, were new arrivals on the Palouse themselves some years back). Most water used in the summer goes to watering golf courses, not to flushing the toilets of new city residents.

More facts and less fear could greatly help move our public discussion of water use forward. Thanks, Wayne, for asking.

Elsa Kirsten Peters

Pullman

David Camden-Britton -=)*(=-  davidcb@acm.org _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

--------------60C136FA373601E7335C1539-- From dale@courtneys.us Sat Jul 19 00:12:24 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:12:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Graying of America Message-ID: <019201c34d82$0c8c14a0$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0193_01C34D47.602D3CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In case someone should think "why should I care about Europe's Population Implosion" or "what does that have to do with Moscow"... Population Aging Following World War II, there was a dramatic increase in fertility = rates in the United States. Rates began to soar in 1946 and, although they = peaked in 1957, their effect on annual birth rates persisted until 1964. = Following the post-war increases, fertility rates plummeted and, since the early 1970s, have remained below zero population growth. =20 The baby boom generation (those born between 1946 and 1964) is 50 percent larger than the generation it is now supporting in retirement. = The post-1964 baby bust generation, on the other hand, is smaller than the generation that it will eventually have to help to support. Not only are there relatively fewer younger people, but the older = people they are expected to help support in retirement are living longer as = well. When Social Security began paying benefits in 1940, only about half of 21-year-old men could expect to reach 65 to collect benefits, and those = who did could expect to collect benefits for 12 years. It's a dirty little secret, but the African-American average age in the USA has been less = than 65. So most African-American men could count on paying into Social = Security for their entire lifetimes and not expect to get a dime out of it.=20 By 1990, nearly 75 percent of them could expect to reach 65 and = collect benefits for 15 years. These trends are expected to continue at least = until the middle of the 21st century. At that time, an expected 83 percent of 21-year-old men will reach 65, and they can expect to live another 18 = years. The past and projected mortality gains for women are equally impressive. Historic and Projected Changes in=20 U.S. Life Expectancies, 1940-2050 Year cohort turns 65 Percentage surviving from age 21 to 65 Remaining Life Expectancy at 65=09 Male Female Male Female=09 1940 54 61 12.7 14.7=09 1950 56 65 13.1 16.2=09 1960 60 71 13.2 17.4=09 1970 64 77 13.8 18.6=09 1980 68 81 14.6 19.1=09 1990 72 84 15.3 19.6=09 2000 76 85 15.8 20.1=09 2010 78 87 16.3 20.5=09 2020 79 88 16.8 21.0=09 2030 80 89 17.2 21.5=09 2040 82 89 17.6 22.0=09 2050 83 90 18.0 22.4=09 Source: Retooling Social Security for the 21st Century, C. Eugene = Steuerle and Jon=09 As a result, the Social Security Administration estimates that the number of beneficiaries will more than double by 2050. Moreover, because longevity has increased, this level of beneficiaries will tend to = persist despite the baby bust. Longevity, then, can be expected to permanently change the age distribution of the population, and even after the baby = boom is gone, the number of people over age 65 will not drop substantially. Changes in the Size of the Workforce The impact of these demographic trends on the labor force will be dramatic. The traditional working-age population (those between the ages = of 20 and 64) has increased by 13 to 20 million in each decade since 1970. However, it is expected to grow by only seven million between 2010 and = 2020, and between 2020 and 2030 it is expected to actually decrease by = 700,000. So, at the same time that the number of expected Social Security beneficiaries is doubling, there will be fewer potential wage earners entering the labor force. As a result, the potential number of workers supporting each over-65 person will plummet. Between 2010 and 2020, the ratio of the working-age population to the elderly is projected to drop = from 4.7 to 3.6, and by 2030 it is expected to have fallen to 2.8 working-age persons for each person over 65. =20 So what we see for the future is a decreasing workforce trying to provide more benefits for an ever increasing graying population. By 2030 there will be less than 3 working people for every retired person = (assuming that people retire at 64). That means that the tax burden on the next generation just for Social Security will nearly double from what it is today.=20 =20 By 2010, workers will be unable to keep up with the outlays for = Social Security. At that point, there will only be a few decisions open to us:=20 * Cut benefits,=20 * Raise taxes, or=20 * Push out the retirement benefit age even further -- perhaps past the average mortality age again, so SSA only has to pay back a few people.=20 While our predicament is not nearly as critical as it is in Europe, = we are facing our own near-term crisis in the Graying of America. Source: American Academy of Actuaries. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho ------=_NextPart_000_0193_01C34D47.602D3CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
    In case someone should think = "why=20 should I care about Europe's Population Implosion" or "what does that = have to do=20 with Moscow"...

Population Aging

    Following World War II, = there was a=20 dramatic increase in fertility rates in the United States. Rates began = to soar=20 in 1946 and, although they peaked in 1957, their effect on annual birth = rates=20 persisted until 1964. Following the post-war increases, fertility rates=20 plummeted and, since the early 1970s, have remained below zero = population=20 growth.

    The baby boom generation = (those born=20 between 1946 and 1964) is 50 percent larger than the generation it is = now=20 supporting in retirement. The post-1964 baby bust generation, on the = other hand,=20 is smaller than the generation that it will eventually have to help to=20 support.

    Not only are there = relatively fewer=20 younger people, but the older people they are expected to help support = in=20 retirement are living longer as well. When Social Security began paying = benefits=20 in 1940, only about half of 21-year-old men could expect to reach 65 to = collect=20 benefits, and those who did could expect to collect benefits for 12 = years. It's=20 a dirty little secret, but the African-American average age in the USA = has been=20 less than 65. So most African-American men could count on paying into = Social=20 Security for their entire lifetimes and not expect to get a dime out of = it.=20

    By 1990, nearly 75 percent = of them=20 could expect to reach 65 and collect benefits for 15 years. These trends = are=20 expected to continue at least until the middle of the 21st century. At = that=20 time, an expected 83 percent of 21-year-old men will reach 65, and they = can=20 expect to live another 18 years. The past and projected mortality gains = for=20 women are equally impressive.

Historic and Projected = Changes in=20
U.S. Life Expectancies, 1940-2050

Year cohort
turns=20 65

Percentage surviving = from age 21 to=20 65

 Remaining Life Expectancy = at=20 65
Male Female Male Female
1940 54 61 12.7 14.7
1950 56 65 13.1 16.2
1960 60 71 13.2 17.4
1970 64 77 13.8 18.6
1980 68 81 14.6 19.1
1990 72 84 15.3 19.6
2000 76 85 15.8 20.1
2010 78 87 16.3 20.5
2020 79 88 16.8 21.0
2030 80 89 17.2 21.5
2040 82 89 17.6 22.0
2050 83 90 18.0 22.4
Source: Retooling Social = Security for=20 the 21st Century, C. Eugene Steuerle and=20 Jon

    As a result, the Social = Security=20 Administration estimates that the number of beneficiaries will more than = double=20 by 2050. Moreover, because longevity has increased, this level of = beneficiaries=20 will tend to persist despite the baby bust. Longevity, then, can be = expected to=20 permanently change the age distribution of the population, and even = after the=20 baby boom is gone, the number of people over age 65 will not drop=20 substantially.

Changes in the Size of the = Workforce

    The impact of these = demographic trends=20 on the labor force will be dramatic. The traditional working-age = population=20 (those between the ages of 20 and 64) has increased by 13 to 20 million = in each=20 decade since 1970. However, it is expected to grow by only seven million = between=20 2010 and 2020, and between 2020 and 2030 it is expected to actually = decrease by=20 700,000. So, at the same time that the number of expected Social = Security=20 beneficiaries is doubling, there will be fewer potential wage earners = entering=20 the labor force. As a result, the potential number of workers supporting = each=20 over-65 person will plummet. Between 2010 and 2020, the ratio of the = working-age=20 population to the elderly is projected to drop from 4.7 to 3.6, and by = 2030 it=20 is expected to have fallen to 2.8 working-age persons for each person = over=20 65.

    So what we see for the = future is a=20 decreasing workforce trying to provide more benefits for an ever = increasing=20 graying population. By 2030 there will be less than 3 working people for = every=20 retired person (assuming that people retire at 64). That means that the = tax=20 burden on the next generation just for Social Security will = nearly double=20 from what it is today.

    By 2010, workers will be = unable to=20 keep up with the outlays for Social Security. At that point, there will = only be=20 a few decisions open to us:

  • Cut = benefits,=20
  • Raise=20 taxes, or
  • Push=20 out the retirement benefit age even further -- perhaps past the = average=20 mortality age again, so SSA only has to pay back a few people.=20

    While our predicament is not = nearly as=20 critical as it is in Europe, we are facing our own near-term crisis in = the=20 Graying of America.

Source: American Academy of = Actuaries.

Best,
Dale Courtney
Moscow,=20 Idaho

------=_NextPart_000_0193_01C34D47.602D3CA0-- From dale@courtneys.us Sat Jul 19 00:17:24 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:17:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse water In-Reply-To: <3F18810C.DB9EEEF7@moscow.com> Message-ID: <019d01c34d82$bf5cc0c0$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_019E_01C34D48.12FDE8C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, =20 That doesn't cut it for an answer. The issue is not how much water is or should be going to water golf courses.=20 =20 The question is -- is the total amount of water of the two aquifers = falling? Or is it just the deep aquifer that is lowering?=20 =20 Please answer that one question.=20 =20 Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of Bill London Sent: Friday, 18 July, 2003 16:22 To: David Camden-Britton Cc: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse water Please do not be so quick to assume that Elsa Peters is injecting fact = into this discussion of aquifers (in her letter reprinted below).=20 Elsa Peters reflects her own biases more than facts in her letter about = the aquifer.=20 She asserts that more water is pumped from the aquifer for golf courses = than is used in the ever-expanding number of homes (each with toilets, lawns, sinks, etc). The UI golf course uses recycled effluent water--not water pumped from the aquifer. The Elks golf course has its own well that = pumps from the recharging upper aquifer. The homes in Moscow rely on water = pumped from the deep wells that are, in fact, dropping more than a foot in = depth annually.=20 Concern for this diminishing aquifer source is not an irrational fear, = it's just common sense.=20 BL=20 David Camden-Britton wrote:=20 Great... Nice. Take a fine emotional issue that we can rant and rave = about and inject facts into it! Fie upon this so-called "Geologist"! What is that anyway? Something like a geomancer? She's a wizard! Yes!=20 PS: Thanks for the post, Dale.=20 At 06:45 PM 7/17/2003 -0700, you wrote:=20 A few facts about Palouse water=20 It's a nice change of pace to see Wayne Olson's letter to the editor (Opinion, July 9) asking for facts, not rhetoric, about "our aquifer."=20 First fact: There are at least two aquifers below Pullman and Moscow. = There may be more, but two are known to all drillers and geologists in the = area.=20 Second fact: The water level of the upper (more shallow) aquifer is not dropping at all. Indeed, water levels in the upper aquifer have done = nothing but rise in my lifetime (I'm 43).=20 Third fact: The water levels near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That statement, however, does not imply that the = water levels farther away are dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run out" of water in the lower aquifer. Ask another = geologist if you don't care to believe me on these points.=20 Fourth fact: Most water used in both Moscow and Pullman during the = summer is not consumed by "new housing developments," a favorite target of members = of the Moscow Civic Association (most of whom, of course, were new arrivals = on the Palouse themselves some years back). Most water used in the summer = goes to watering golf courses, not to flushing the toilets of new city = residents. More facts and less fear could greatly help move our public discussion = of water use forward. Thanks, Wayne, for asking.=20 Elsa Kirsten Peters=20 Pullman David Camden-Britton -=3D)*(=3D- davidcb@acm.org _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------=_NextPart_000_019E_01C34D48.12FDE8C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Bill,
 
That=20 doesn't cut it for an answer. The issue is not how much water is or = should be=20 going to water golf courses.
 
The=20 question is -- is the total amount of water of the two aquifers = falling?=20 Or is it just the deep aquifer that is lowering? =
 
Please=20 answer that one question.
 
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On = Behalf=20 Of Bill London
Sent: Friday, 18 July, 2003 = 16:22
To:=20 David Camden-Britton
Cc: = vision2020@moscow.com
Subject:=20 Re: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse = water

Please do=20 not be so quick to assume that Elsa Peters is injecting fact into this = discussion of aquifers (in her letter reprinted below).
Elsa = Peters=20 reflects her own biases more than facts in her letter about the = aquifer.=20
She asserts that more water is pumped from the aquifer for golf = courses=20 than is used in the ever-expanding number of homes (each with toilets, = lawns,=20 sinks, etc).  The UI golf course uses recycled effluent = water--not water=20 pumped from the aquifer.  The Elks golf course has its own well = that=20 pumps from the recharging upper aquifer.  The homes in Moscow = rely on=20 water pumped from the deep wells that are, in fact, dropping more than = a foot=20 in depth annually.
Concern for this diminishing aquifer source is = not an=20 irrational fear, it's just common sense.
BL=20

David Camden-Britton wrote:=20

Great... Nice.  Take a fine emotional = issue=20 that we can rant and rave about and inject facts into it!  Fie = upon=20 this so-called "Geologist"!  What is that anyway?  = Something like=20 a geomancer?  She's a wizard!  Yes!=20

PS: Thanks for the post, Dale.=20

At 06:45 PM 7/17/2003 -0700, you wrote:=20

A few=20 facts about Palouse water=20

It's a nice change of pace to see Wayne = Olson's=20 letter to the editor (Opinion, July 9) asking for facts, not = rhetoric,=20 about "our aquifer."=20

First fact: There are at least two = aquifers below=20 Pullman and Moscow. There may be more, but two are known to all = drillers=20 and geologists in the area.=20

Second fact: The water level of the upper = (more=20 shallow) aquifer is not dropping at all. Indeed, water levels in = the upper=20 aquifer have done nothing but rise in my lifetime (I'm 43). =

Third fact: The water levels near = Moscow-Pullman=20 city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That statement, = however,=20 does not imply that the water levels farther away are dropping = (it's a=20 huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run out" of water in = the=20 lower aquifer. Ask another geologist if you don't care to believe = me on=20 these points.=20

Fourth fact: Most water used in both = Moscow and=20 Pullman during the summer is not consumed by "new housing = developments," a=20 favorite target of members of the Moscow Civic Association (most = of whom,=20 of course, were new arrivals on the Palouse themselves some years = back).=20 Most water used in the summer goes to watering golf courses, not = to=20 flushing the toilets of new city residents.=20

More facts and less fear could greatly = help move=20 our public discussion of water use forward. Thanks, Wayne, for=20 asking.=20

Elsa Kirsten Peters=20

Pullman

David = Camden-Britton=20 -=3D)*(=3D-  davidcb@acm.org=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse=20 since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF

------=_NextPart_000_019E_01C34D48.12FDE8C0-- From dkaag@turbonet.com Sat Jul 19 04:26:24 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 20:26:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Europe's population implosion: Europe's population is shrinking and greying-with grim consequences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Donovan: Good luck with the world overpopulation thing. In 2050 I plan to be employed in the field of decomposition! Heh, heh, ("For all men, the world ends when they die".) Don On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 02:53 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote: > And the bad news is: If am still around in 2050 I probably won't know > what year it is or what 8.9 billion is. : ) > Which is something that I look forward to. A day when no race, > religion, or culture rules the majority of the World, but instead, > everyone is a minority in their religion, nation, and race. A day when > all must respect all others to be respected themselves. : ) > > Donovan J Arnold > > >> From: "Dale Courtney" >> To: >> Subject: [Vision2020] Europe's population implosion: Europe's >> population is shrinking and greying-with grim consequences >> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:27:49 -0700 >> >> The UN, whose past population predictions have been fairly accurate, >> predicts that >> - The world's population will *increase* from just over 6 billion in >> 2000 to >> 8.9 billion by 2050. >> - During the same period, however, the population of the 27 countries >> that >> should be members of the EU by 2007 is predicted to *fall* by 6%, >> from 482m >> to 454m. >> >> For countries with particularly low fertility rates, the decline is >> dramatic. >> - By 2050 the number of Italians should fall from 57.5m in 2000 to >> around >> 45m >> - Spain's population should droop from 40m to 37m. >> - Germany, which currently has a population of around 80m, could find >> itself >> with just 25m inhabitants by the end of this century, according to >> recent >> projections by Deutsche Bank, which adds: "Even assuming (no doubt >> unrealistically high) annual immigration of 250,000, Germany's >> population >> would decline to about 50m by 2100." >> >> Combine a shrinking population with rising life expectancy, and the >> economic and political consequences are alarming. >> - In Europe there are currently 35 people of pensionable age for >> every 100 >> people of working age. >> - By 2050, on present demographic trends, there will be 75 pensioners >> for >> every 100 workers; >> - In Spain and Italy the ratio of pensioners to workers is projected >> to be >> one-to-one. >> >> Since pensions in Germany, France and Italy are paid out of current >> tax revenue, the obvious implication is that taxes will have to soar >> to fund >> the pretty generous pensions that Europeans have got used to. The >> cost is >> already stretching government finances. Deutsche Bank calculates that >> average earners in Germany are already paying around 29% of their >> wages into >> the state pension pot, while the figure in Italy is close to 33%. >> >> Either Europe must effect a radical cutback in pensions and health >> care for seniors, or Europe must import scores of millions of >> internationals >> (mostly Arabs and Africans) to care for the elderly and pay the taxes >> to >> sustain their welfare states. >> >> The UN's statistics department >> (http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/default.htm) and population >> division >> (http://www.un.org/esa/population/unpop.htm) have information on world >> demographic trends. >> See also the French Institute of International Relations >> (http://www.ifri.org/frontDispatcher). >> The above numbers and trends were reported in the 17 July edition of >> The Economist. >> >> Best, >> Dale Courtney >> Moscow, Idaho >> >> >> _____________________________________________________ >> List services made available by First Step Internet, >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the > communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From thansen@moscow.com Sat Jul 19 05:15:17 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:15:17 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Europe's population implosion: Europe's population is shrinking and greying-with grim consequences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree, Don. My primary concern in 2050 will be landfill. Tom Hansen LMoscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Don Kaag > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 8:26 PM > To: Vision2020 > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Europe's population implosion: Europe's > population is shrinking and greying-with grim consequences > > > Donovan: > > Good luck with the world overpopulation thing. In 2050 I plan to be > employed in the field of decomposition! > > Heh, heh, > ("For all men, the world ends when they die".) > > Don > > On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 02:53 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote: > > > And the bad news is: If am still around in 2050 I probably won't know > > what year it is or what 8.9 billion is. : ) > > Which is something that I look forward to. A day when no race, > > religion, or culture rules the majority of the World, but instead, > > everyone is a minority in their religion, nation, and race. A day when > > all must respect all others to be respected themselves. : ) > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > >> From: "Dale Courtney" > >> To: > >> Subject: [Vision2020] Europe's population implosion: Europe's > >> population is shrinking and greying-with grim consequences > >> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:27:49 -0700 > >> > >> The UN, whose past population predictions have been fairly accurate, > >> predicts that > >> - The world's population will *increase* from just over 6 billion in > >> 2000 to > >> 8.9 billion by 2050. > >> - During the same period, however, the population of the 27 countries > >> that > >> should be members of the EU by 2007 is predicted to *fall* by 6%, > >> from 482m > >> to 454m. > >> > >> For countries with particularly low fertility rates, the decline is > >> dramatic. > >> - By 2050 the number of Italians should fall from 57.5m in 2000 to > >> around > >> 45m > >> - Spain's population should droop from 40m to 37m. > >> - Germany, which currently has a population of around 80m, could find > >> itself > >> with just 25m inhabitants by the end of this century, according to > >> recent > >> projections by Deutsche Bank, which adds: "Even assuming (no doubt > >> unrealistically high) annual immigration of 250,000, Germany's > >> population > >> would decline to about 50m by 2100." > >> > >> Combine a shrinking population with rising life expectancy, and the > >> economic and political consequences are alarming. > >> - In Europe there are currently 35 people of pensionable age for > >> every 100 > >> people of working age. > >> - By 2050, on present demographic trends, there will be 75 pensioners > >> for > >> every 100 workers; > >> - In Spain and Italy the ratio of pensioners to workers is projected > >> to be > >> one-to-one. > >> > >> Since pensions in Germany, France and Italy are paid out of current > >> tax revenue, the obvious implication is that taxes will have to soar > >> to fund > >> the pretty generous pensions that Europeans have got used to. The > >> cost is > >> already stretching government finances. Deutsche Bank calculates that > >> average earners in Germany are already paying around 29% of their > >> wages into > >> the state pension pot, while the figure in Italy is close to 33%. > >> > >> Either Europe must effect a radical cutback in pensions and health > >> care for seniors, or Europe must import scores of millions of > >> internationals > >> (mostly Arabs and Africans) to care for the elderly and pay the taxes > >> to > >> sustain their welfare states. > >> > >> The UN's statistics department > >> (http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/default.htm) and population > >> division > >> (http://www.un.org/esa/population/unpop.htm) have information on world > >> demographic trends. > >> See also the French Institute of International Relations > >> (http://www.ifri.org/frontDispatcher). > >> The above numbers and trends were reported in the 17 July edition of > >> The Economist. > >> > >> Best, > >> Dale Courtney > >> Moscow, Idaho > >> > >> > >> _____________________________________________________ > >> List services made available by First Step Internet, > >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > >> http://www.fsr.net > >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the > > communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sat Jul 19 07:01:54 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:01:54 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help are dying troops! Message-ID: Community members, Everyday our troops are being shot at, killed, while drinking sodas, buying a candy bar at the store, or just going to the edge of a river to cool off. Meanwhile, their wives, husbands, sons, daughters, moms, dads, friends, and other family members ring their hands wondering who is going to be taken out next. I got an email from somebody recently that was friends with a boy that was shot and killed next to Baghdad University. He was from Florida, and not much older than a boy. Moral among are troops is at a record low as a buddy dies everyday and many more are being badly wounded, with them having nobody to shoot at, no army to fight, no enemy is defined. Bush has insulted our troops once before, by challenging Iraqi troops to attack our troops and to "Bring it On!". Now, as troops write letters home to their congress members, the Bush Administration has been saying this is "untrue". A few troops have been frustrated by the Bush administration blocking their needs and safety issues from being addressed, a few troops voiced this concern on TV. As a result they are being reprimanded for their actions. I am appalled by this action and mistreatment of our troops. They are dying and being ignored half way across the world. I am asking you to do something about this. I don't care if you are a Republican, Democrat, Independent, Libertarian, Green Party, Tax party, or anything way left or right. What we all have in common is we are Americans, and have a genuine belief in this country and the proper treatment of our soldiers. Here is what I ask of all of you: Please go to www.DraftWesleyClark.com and write a letter to General Wesley Clark. Clark is thinking of entering the race for the Presidency against Bush. Clark is a war hero and opposes Bush on his treatment of the military personal. Please ask him to enter this race and hold Bush accountable for the treatment of our troops. This is not a partisan issue. It doesn't matter if are for or against the war. We are all for the proper treatment of our Troops that fight and die every day for this country. Our troops deserve more than to be attacked and threatened by both Bush and Saddam at the same time. Please help. Thank You! Donovan J Arnold _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ddjames@moscow.com Sat Jul 19 08:22:28 2003 From: ddjames@moscow.com (Deacon James) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 00:22:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! References: Message-ID: <001101c34dc6$830fcce0$acf2f5c7@gladiator> Donovan, Golly, you make it sound like Bush is personally shooting the troops. How exactly are our troops (whom I support wholeheartedly) being ignored and mistreated? What needs and saftey issues are not being addressed? I am unclear on these issues. Also, do we know anything about General Clark other than the fact that he is a veteran who sympathizes with soldiers? I wouldn't want to throw my lot in with a fellow who stands on only one issue. Just some questions, Deacon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donovan Arnold" To: Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 11:01 PM Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help are dying troops! > Community members, > > Everyday our troops are being shot at, killed, while drinking sodas, buying > a candy bar at the store, or just going to the edge of a river to cool off. > Meanwhile, their wives, husbands, sons, daughters, moms, dads, friends, and > other family members ring their hands wondering who is going to be taken out > next. I got an email from somebody recently that was friends with a boy that > was shot and killed next to Baghdad University. He was from Florida, and not > much older than a boy. > Moral among are troops is at a record low as a buddy dies everyday and many > more are being badly wounded, with them having nobody to shoot at, no army > to fight, no enemy is defined. Bush has insulted our troops once before, by > challenging Iraqi troops to attack our troops and to "Bring it On!". > Now, as troops write letters home to their congress members, the Bush > Administration has been saying this is "untrue". A few troops have been > frustrated by the Bush administration blocking their needs and safety issues > from being addressed, a few troops voiced this concern on TV. As a result > they are being reprimanded for their actions. > I am appalled by this action and mistreatment of our troops. They are dying > and being ignored half way across the world. > I am asking you to do something about this. I don't care if you are a > Republican, Democrat, Independent, Libertarian, Green Party, Tax party, or > anything way left or right. What we all have in common is we are Americans, > and have a genuine belief in this country and the proper treatment of our > soldiers. Here is what I ask of all of you: > > Please go to www.DraftWesleyClark.com and write a letter to General Wesley > Clark. Clark is thinking of entering the race for the Presidency against > Bush. Clark is a war hero and opposes Bush on his treatment of the military > personal. Please ask him to enter this race and hold Bush accountable for > the treatment of our troops. This is not a partisan issue. It doesn't matter > if are for or against the war. We are all for the proper treatment of our > Troops that fight and die every day for this country. > Our troops deserve more than to be attacked and threatened by both Bush and > Saddam at the same time. Please help. Thank You! > > Donovan J Arnold > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From predator75@moscow.com Sat Jul 19 17:33:32 2003 From: predator75@moscow.com (Dan Carscallen) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:33:32 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Stolen Motorcycle -- 5th and Monroe Message-ID: <005a01c34e13$7edc0740$35f2f5c7@0019522361> I'm on bended knee asking all of the kind and helpful Vision2020 members for their help. Last night/early this morning (July 18-19) my 4 year old nephew's 2000 Yamaha PW50 was stolen out of the back of his dad's (my brother's) red 1988 Mazda pickup. It is blue with white wheels and white number plates, and a red "1" on each (here is a picture: http://www.yamaha-motor.com/products/mcy/500/04PW50_BLU_1.jpg -- although Devin's is slightly more beat up, but you get the idea). Let's not get into the foibles of leaving a motorcycle in the back of a pickup here. My brother discovered it was missing this morning when they were heading out for a ride. Imagine the disappointment of the boy when his motorcycle was missing. Adding insult to injury, it will be my nephew's 5th birthday on Monday. Words cannot describe the anger and hurt I am feeling right now. I'm hoping this will put some more eyes out there on the streets to help us recover this motorcycle. If you have any information, please email me at predator75@moscow.com or phone me at 883-3886 Thanks to all in advance Dan Carscallen (Devin's uncle) From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 18:15:58 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Text of New Saint Andrews Commencement Address, 2003 Message-ID: <20030719171558.10073.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> --0-366008389-1058634958=:9714 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The Christian Extremist An address by Dr. Rob Rayburn, Senior Pastor, Faith Presbyterian Church (PCA), Tacoma, Washington, at New Saint Andrews College's Sixth Commencment May 14, 2003, Logos Field House, Moscow, Idaho Graduates, members of the College administration and faculty, honored guests, I am well aware that someone might doubt the wisdom of speaking in praise of extremism to an assembly gathered in Northern Idaho, but that is what I propose to do. This part of the country, as you know, has a reputation for a certain kind of extremism, whether deserved or not, is not for me to say. But, the extremism I want to recommend to you is, of course, of a very different type than that of the modern recluse who creates a fortress for himself in some thick forest. And that, to be sure, raises the all important question. What do we mean, what does anyone mean, when we call someone an extremist? And can the term be applied positively? It is generally a pejorative term in our own usage as well as the usage of our culture. Can it be a good thing to be an extremist? There are a number of important voices being raised nowadays in our culture decrying extremism of any and all kinds, but, in particular extremism of the religious type. It is that sort of extremism that worries such commentators most of all. And, insofar as this is a deeply religious audience, the notion that you should be extreme in your views and your living is a matter of deep concern in certain influential circles of our culture. But, these people do not hide the fact that by “extremism” they mean simply believing certain things to be absolutely true and living in faithfulness to one’s convictions. Shortly after 9-11 Richard Dawkins, Oxford professor, Darwinist pit bull, and modern champion of popular atheism, argued in the British press that the root cause of the kind of fanaticism that caused the havoc in New York and Washington was religious conviction, and, in particular, a firm belief in life after death. That is what turns an ordinary person into a self-guided miss! ile capable of committing such horrible acts. [Phillip Johnson, The Right Questions, 108-109] For Dawkins, strong-minded and deeply committed evangelical Christians are dangerous in the same way and for the same reason that the militant Muslims are who brought down the World Trade Center. The root of the problem is religious belief taken seriously. That is what he means by extremism and he does not see how such extremism cannot but lead inexorably to catastrophes of the type we have witnessed recently. The same view has been widely circulated in the United States by Richard Rorty, one of the most consequential of American philosophers and perhaps the most influential champion of the modern philosophical project known as post-modernism. Rorty’s is post-modernism with a human face. He means to do good with his post-modernism. It is, if you will, a gospel and, in fact, a gospel of peace. According to Rorty, our culture is faced with a single alternative. We must make a choice between truth and community, between objectivity and solidarity. He means that real community, human beings living peacefully together, human society enjoying tranquillity cannot co-exist with the notion that there is one truth, valid for everyone, and that those who have found that truth are right and those who have not are wrong. Social harmony cannot survive the notion that objective standards of truth and goodness divide mankind into intellectual and moral haves and have-nots. The worst kind of extremism, therefore, according to Rorty, is the extremism represented in this room, a room full of Christians of the historic type, who believe that there is one truth and that it lies behind us in one name, one person, one event, and that it has been preserved in one book. In any case, both of these secular commentators concede that extremism means nothing else to them but taking ideas very seriously. No Christian can thus object to extremism. It is characteristic of all the biblical heroes and of the Lord Jesus himself. He lived a very difficult life, he suffered all manner of ignominy, and finally went to the cruelest imaginable death for the sake of his convictions, what he knew to be true and right and good. And so have countless multitudes who have loved and served him in the world. There are many things to say in response to Dawkins and to Rorty. It is a painfully simplistic and shallow vision of the world that they provide. Neither of them seems to be able to see that they are as extreme and judgmental in holding their convictions as are those whose convictions they condemn. Read Dawkins vituperation against religious believers and doubters of evolution, or read Rorty liken the sexual ethics of biblically minded Christians to that of the Nazis and it becomes painfully clear that one man’s extremism is another man’s common sense. One pundit has wondered aloud if Dawkins or Rorty, virulent as their criticism of religious believers has been, might be willing to sacrifice their own lives in an act of violence if either were convinced that such an act were necessary to save science or philosophy from being taken over by religious fundamentalists! [Johnson, 109] Surely, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. What is more, much more grief has been visited upon the earth over the past century by extremisms of the secular kind than those that are explicitly religious, but neither Dawkins nor Rorty worry over much about secular ideology running amok. Still more, while it is incontestably true that a man or woman whose beliefs are more important to him or to her than life itself is far more dangerous than a person who holds no convictions deeply or intelligently or seriously, convictions so deeply held have been the glory and the honor of mankind and everyone knows it. People who care for nothing for which they would risk their lives are perhaps no threat to social peace, but then they inspire no one either, they are unlikely to improve the lives of others, and they are very definitely never going to make those costly sacrifices that human history repeatedly shows are necessary to better, to ennoble, and to protect what is worthy in the life of human beings. [Johnson, 109] The fact of the matter is that if it were deep convictions of faith, duty, and sacrifice that motivated the 9-11 terrorists, I don’t say that it were, but if it were, it is very similar convictions that compel a fireman to reenter a burning building in search of the living, a father to work long hours to provide for his family, a soldier to risk his life to bring aid to a wounded comrade, or a citizen to stand up for justice and incur the wrath of a corrupt regime. When we condemn the one act and applaud the others we are admitting that the problem is not conviction itself, but wrong convictions and the need is not for tepid faith, but for people to have right beliefs. And this, it seems to me, leads us to consider what a proper kind of Christian extremism consists of. If extremism in common parlance, in the final analysis, is only the consistent practice of deep conviction, surely Christians must be among the most extreme people in the world. But, we are all well enough acquainted with religious extremism, even of the so-called evangelical Christian type, that disgusts us as surely as it does a Richard Dawkins or Richard Rorty. We know all too well that for some who trumpet their Christian conviction true loyalty to God and Christ takes the form of strict racial separation or world flight, reading only the King James Version of the Bible or forbidding women to wear trousers. And, perhaps personally, we are better acquainted with a well known type of evangelical Christian whose extremism, whose strongly held and faithfully practiced conviction is more Bible-based but still repugnant in its tenor and spirit. These Christians tend to beat a single drum and as loudly as they can. These believers never tire of pointing out what they perceive to be the failures of other Christians, of ringing the changes on their favorite parts of the Bible’s teaching, often the hardest parts of its teaching. It matters little if the single note being sounded is gender differentiation or the equality of the sexes, teetotalism or Christian liberty, divine sovereignty or the liberty of the will, one eschatological position or another, the constant pounding gives everyone a headache. We are perhaps in little danger from such people, but our holy faith is not adorned by them either. It is not for nothing that extremism is generally regarded as a bad thing! But it is ours to restore its good press. Christianity is a faith of extremes. As G.K. Chesterton put it, “Christianity got over the difficulty of combining furious opposites by keeping them both and keeping them both furious.” It requires us to believe things not only profoundly offensive to the unrenewed human mind and heart – and thus requires deep conviction on our part – but breathtaking in their implications – and so requires also a decidedly theological living that must set us apart from our culture and its ethos. But there is a wholeness to this living out of Christian conviction, a humanity, even a beauty capable of surprising even the most hardened unbeliever. And it is to this godly extremism that I wish to summon you graduates today. The challenge for you, I believe, will not be that you are too extreme, but that you are not extreme enough. And your failure will likely be that you are extreme at only certain points and not at all of them. What I summon you to today is a life of comprehensive extremism. Let me tell you what I mean. The Bible, to be sure is an intolerant book. It brooks no opposition, it refuses to pander to the spirit of any age. It is the very Word of the living God. It demands, and rightly, our belief and our obedience and that absolutely. God reserves his favor for those human beings who tremble at his Word. But, in the teaching and preaching of its message, notice how large-hearted and tolerant the Bible is, how forgiving of doubt, how eager to help its hearers understand, to remove the obstacles in the way of their belief in its message. The Apostle Paul was a man who had no doubt of the authority and the truthfulness of the Bible, but he himself says that he availed himself of every opportunity to gain a sympathetic hearing for its message. He was even willing, and surely this surprises us, to be thought to agree with people whom he knew to embrace theological error, so as not to put a stumbling block in the way of their hearing him explain the gospel of God. Paul was anyone’s doormat with regard to matters on which it was at all possible to be flexible so that he might win a hearing for Christ. Surely that is a striking juxtaposition of extremisms: a book that demands our absolute submission yet, at the same time, teaches us to bend over backwards to gain a sympathetic hearing for its message. A book that brooks no opposition and yet makes every concession to its opposers for the sake of winning their hearts. Our world is full of those who will bend over backward to win the approval of others and full of people who demand absolute submission to a message, but how few are there who love the unbeliever and the message with a similar passion and are willing to make any personal sacrifice to secure a willing and heart-felt acceptance of the message by others. Or, consider this. No Christian can deny that eternal life and death are at stake in the matter of faith in Jesus Christ. That exclusivism is part and parcel of the Bible’s message. One must believe in Jesus and follow him to live forever. However impolitic to say it nowadays, however distasteful to the modern mind the notion that there is but one way to heaven and one name by which men must be saved, to deny this for the sake of a seemingly wider and more charitable Christianity is to betray the Lord with a kiss. You must hold fast to Jesus Christ as the only name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved. Many people will think you intolerably extreme for holding such a view, so narrow, so exclusive, so discriminatory. But, be extreme in another way as well. Take every opportunity also to say that the Lord does not desire the death of the wicked but that all men come to repentance and the knowledge of the truth. Speak of the Lord’s sorrow over man’s rebellion – even his broken heart, for so the Bible speaks – and then speak with your own sorrow of those who are lost in unbelief. Do not content yourself until you can say as Paul did that you wish yourself accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of the unbelievers you know. Nothing is so likely to adorn and render impressive the truth of solo Christo, salvation by Christ alone, as Christians who so evidently carry in their hearts the burden of the world’s unbelief and who are plainly willing to move heaven and earth if only a man or a woman will believe in Jesus and be saved. Or, consider what is now virtually unmentionable in polite culture: the very real prospect of damnation, guaranteed by the voice of the Son of God himself. If ever there was a doctrine uncongenial to an age and a culture it is the doctrine of hell in the Western world of our time. Anyone seriously determined to proclaim and live by its reality will be considered an extremist of the worst sort. But followers of Jesus Christ can hardly afford to part company with their Master at such a fundamental point of his teaching and motive of his living and loving. Still, how differently that extreme conviction will appear if next to it in the same life one sees the deepest sympathy for those whose hell has already begun in this world. Is it not a striking thing that it was the Son of God, who said so much about hell and spoke so uncompromisingly about it and was so obviously solemnized himself by the prospect of it, nevertheless struck people as so eminently approachable, sympathetic, understanding of the human condition, and always sensitive to the temporal wants and needs of people? Is it not striking that the man who saw hell more clearly and feared it more terribly than anyone ever has, was the man who literally exhausted himself for the sake of the salvation of others and who emanated a tender-heartedness and fellow feeling that continues to draw the needy to him even across the ages? Why is it, but for this other extremism in his life, this extremity of humanity, that so many are attracted to him who nevertheless repudiate his m! essage? Richard Rorty thinks it actually impossible at one and the same time to live a life of self-sacrificial love, a life that blesses others and draws them into peaceful fellowship, and live in submission to an objective truth you believe is rejected by others only at the cost of their eternal life. He is sure that the one is the death of the other. I say to you, graduates, that your summons, your task in life, in obedience and in conformity to your Lord and Master Jesus Christ is to prove Richard Rorty wrong. And you do that by living extremely; by living a life that is both and always an extremism of truth and an extremism of love. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-366008389-1058634958=:9714 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii The Christian Extremist

An address by Dr. Rob Rayburn, Senior Pastor, Faith Presbyterian Church (PCA), Tacoma, Washington, at New Saint Andrews College's Sixth Commencment

May 14, 2003, Logos Field House, Moscow, Idaho

Graduates, members of the College administration and faculty, honored guests,

I am well aware that someone might doubt the wisdom of speaking in praise of extremism to an assembly gathered in Northern Idaho, but that is what I propose to do. This part of the country, as you know, has a reputation for a certain kind of extremism, whether deserved or not, is not for me to say. But, the extremism I want to recommend to you is, of course, of a very different type than that of the modern recluse who creates a fortress for himself in some thick forest. And that, to be sure, raises the all important question. What do we mean, what does anyone mean, when we call someone an extremist? And can the term be applied positively? It is generally a pejorative term in our own usage as well as the usage of our culture. Can it be a good thing to be an extremist?

There are a number of important voices being rai! sed nowadays in our culture decrying extremism of any and all kinds, but, in particular extremism of the religious type. It is that sort of extremism that worries such commentators most of all. And, insofar as this is a deeply religious audience, the notion that you should be extreme in your views and your living is a matter of deep concern in certain influential circles of our culture. But, these people do not hide the fact that by “extremism” they mean simply believing certain things to be absolutely true and living in faithfulness to one’s convictions. Shortly after 9-11 Richard Dawkins, Oxford professor, Darwinist pit bull, and modern champion of popular atheism, argued in the British press that the root cause of the kind of fanaticism that caused the havoc in New York and Washington was religious conviction, and, in particular, a firm belief in life after death. That is what turns an ordinary person into a self-guided missile capable of committing such horrible acts. [Phil! lip Johnson, The Right Questions, 108-109] For Dawkins, strong-minded and deeply committed evangelical Christians are dangerous in the same way and for the same reason that the militant Muslims are who brought down the World Trade Center. The root of the problem is religious belief taken seriously. That is what he means by extremism and he does not see how such extremism cannot but lead inexorably to catastrophes of the type we have witnessed recently.

The same view has been widely circulated in the United States by Richard Rorty, one of the most consequential of American philosophers and perhaps the most influential champion of the modern philosophical project known as post-modernism. Rorty’s is post-modernism with a human face. He means to do good with his post-modernism. It is, if you will, a gospel and, in fact, a gospel of peace.

According to Rorty, our culture is faced with a single alternative. We must make a choice between truth and community, between obje! ctivity and solidarity. He means that real community, human beings living peacefully together, human society enjoying tranquillity cannot co-exist with the notion that there is one truth, valid for everyone, and that those who have found that truth are right and those who have not are wrong. Social harmony cannot survive the notion that objective standards of truth and goodness divide mankind into intellectual and moral haves and have-nots. The worst kind of extremism, therefore, according to Rorty, is the extremism represented in this room, a room full of Christians of the historic type, who believe that there is one truth and that it lies behind us in one name, one person, one event, and that it has been preserved in one book. In any case, both of these secular commentators concede that extremism means nothing else to them but taking ideas very seriously. No Christian can thus object to extremism. It is characteristic of all the biblical heroes and of the Lord Jesus himself. He l! ived a very difficult life, he suffered all manner of ignominy, and finally went to the cruelest imaginable death for the sake of his convictions, what he knew to be true and right and good. And so have countless multitudes who have loved and served him in the world.

There are many things to say in response to Dawkins and to Rorty. It is a painfully simplistic and shallow vision of the world that they provide. Neither of them seems to be able to see that they are as extreme and judgmental in holding their convictions as are those whose convictions they condemn. Read Dawkins vituperation against religious believers and doubters of evolution, or read Rorty liken the sexual ethics of biblically minded Christians to that of the Nazis and it becomes painfully clear that one man’s extremism is another man’s common sense. One pundit has wondered aloud if Dawkins or Rorty, virulent as their criticism of religious believers has been, might be willing to sacrifice their own lives in ! an act of violence if either were convinced that such an act were necessary to save science or philosophy from being taken over by religious fundamentalists! [Johnson, 109] Surely, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

What is more, much more grief has been visited upon the earth over the past century by extremisms of the secular kind than those that are explicitly religious, but neither Dawkins nor Rorty worry over much about secular ideology running amok. Still more, while it is incontestably true that a man or woman whose beliefs are more important to him or to her than life itself is far more dangerous than a person who holds no convictions deeply or intelligently or seriously, convictions so deeply held have been the glory and the honor of mankind and everyone knows it. People who care for nothing for which they would risk their lives are perhaps no threat to social peace, but then they inspire no one either, they are unlikely to improve the lives of others, ! and they are very definitely never going to make those costly sacrifices that human history repeatedly shows are necessary to better, to ennoble, and to protect what is worthy in the life of human beings. [Johnson, 109]

The fact of the matter is that if it were deep convictions of faith, duty, and sacrifice that motivated the 9-11 terrorists, I don’t say that it were, but if it were, it is very similar convictions that compel a fireman to reenter a burning building in search of the living, a father to work long hours to provide for his family, a soldier to risk his life to bring aid to a wounded comrade, or a citizen to stand up for justice and incur the wrath of a corrupt regime. When we condemn the one act and applaud the others we are admitting that the problem is not conviction itself, but wrong convictions and the need is not for tepid faith, but for people to have right beliefs.

And this, it seems to me, leads us to consider what a proper kind of Christian extrem! ism consists of. If extremism in common parlance, in the final analysis, is only the consistent practice of deep conviction, surely Christians must be among the most extreme people in the world. But, we are all well enough acquainted with religious extremism, even of the so-called evangelical Christian type, that disgusts us as surely as it does a Richard Dawkins or Richard Rorty. We know all too well that for some who trumpet their Christian conviction true loyalty to God and Christ takes the form of strict racial separation or world flight, reading only the King James Version of the Bible or forbidding women to wear trousers.

And, perhaps personally, we are better acquainted with a well known type of evangelical Christian whose extremism, whose strongly held and faithfully practiced conviction is more Bible-based but still repugnant in its tenor and spirit. These Christians tend to beat a single drum and as loudly as they can. These believers never tire of pointing out! what they perceive to be the failures of other Christians, of ringing the changes on their favorite parts of the Bible’s teaching, often the hardest parts of its teaching. It matters little if the single note being sounded is gender differentiation or the equality of the sexes, teetotalism or Christian liberty, divine sovereignty or the liberty of the will, one eschatological position or another, the constant pounding gives everyone a headache. We are perhaps in little danger from such people, but our holy faith is not adorned by them either. It is not for nothing that extremism is generally regarded as a bad thing!

But it is ours to restore its good press. Christianity is a faith of extremes. As G.K. Chesterton put it, “Christianity got over the difficulty of combining furious opposites by keeping them both and keeping them both furious.” It requires us to believe things not only profoundly offensive to the unrenewed human mind and heart – and thus requires deep convicti! on on our part – but breathtaking in their implications – and so requires also a decidedly theological living that must set us apart from our culture and its ethos.

But there is a wholeness to this living out of Christian conviction, a humanity, even a beauty capable of surprising even the most hardened unbeliever. And it is to this godly extremism that I wish to summon you graduates today. The challenge for you, I believe, will not be that you are too extreme, but that you are not extreme enough. And your failure will likely be that you are extreme at only certain points and not at all of them. What I summon you to today is a life of comprehensive extremism. Let me tell you what I mean.

The Bible, to be sure is an intolerant book. It brooks no opposition, it refuses to pander to the spirit of any age. It is the very Word of the living God. It demands, and rightly, our belief and our obedience and that absolutely. God reserves his favor for those human beings who trembl! e at his Word. But, in the teaching and preaching of its message, notice how large-hearted and tolerant the Bible is, how forgiving of doubt, how eager to help its hearers understand, to remove the obstacles in the way of their belief in its message.

The Apostle Paul was a man who had no doubt of the authority and the truthfulness of the Bible, but he himself says that he availed himself of every opportunity to gain a sympathetic hearing for its message. He was even willing, and surely this surprises us, to be thought to agree with people whom he knew to embrace theological error, so as not to put a stumbling block in the way of their hearing him explain the gospel of God. Paul was anyone’s doormat with regard to matters on which it was at all possible to be flexible so that he might win a hearing for Christ.

Surely that is a striking juxtaposition of extremisms: a book that demands our absolute submission yet, at the same time, teaches us to bend over backwards to gai! n a sympathetic hearing for its message. A book that brooks no opposition and yet makes every concession to its opposers for the sake of winning their hearts. Our world is full of those who will bend over backward to win the approval of others and full of people who demand absolute submission to a message, but how few are there who love the unbeliever and the message with a similar passion and are willing to make any personal sacrifice to secure a willing and heart-felt acceptance of the message by others.

Or, consider this. No Christian can deny that eternal life and death are at stake in the matter of faith in Jesus Christ. That exclusivism is part and parcel of the Bible’s message. One must believe in Jesus and follow him to live forever. However impolitic to say it nowadays, however distasteful to the modern mind the notion that there is but one way to heaven and one name by which men must be saved, to deny this for the sake of a seemingly wider and more charitable Christianity is to betray the Lord with a kiss. You must hold fast to Jesus Christ as the only name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved. Many people will think you intolerably extreme for holding such a view, so narrow, so exclusive, so discriminatory.

But, be extreme in another way as well. Take every opportunity also to say that the Lord does not desire the death of the wicked but that all men come to repentance and the knowledge of the truth. Speak of the Lord’s sorrow over man’s rebellion – even his broken heart, for so the Bible speaks – and then speak with your own sorrow of those who are lost in unbelief. Do not content yourself until you can say as Paul did that you wish yourself accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of the unbelievers you know. Nothing is so likely to adorn and render impressive the truth of solo Christo, salvation by Christ alone, as Christians who so evidently carry in their hearts the burden of the world’s unbelief! and who are plainly willing to move heaven and earth if only a man or a woman will believe in Jesus and be saved.

Or, consider what is now virtually unmentionable in polite culture: the very real prospect of damnation, guaranteed by the voice of the Son of God himself. If ever there was a doctrine uncongenial to an age and a culture it is the doctrine of hell in the Western world of our time. Anyone seriously determined to proclaim and live by its reality will be considered an extremist of the worst sort. But followers of Jesus Christ can hardly afford to part company with their Master at such a fundamental point of his teaching and motive of his living and loving.

Still, how differently that extreme conviction will appear if next to it in the same life one sees the deepest sympathy for those whose hell has already begun in this world. Is it not a striking thing that it was the Son of God, who said so much about hell and spoke so uncompromisingly about it and was so o! bviously solemnized himself by the prospect of it, nevertheless struck people as so eminently approachable, sympathetic, understanding of the human condition, and always sensitive to the temporal wants and needs of people? Is it not striking that the man who saw hell more clearly and feared it more terribly than anyone ever has, was the man who literally exhausted himself for the sake of the salvation of others and who emanated a tender-heartedness and fellow feeling that continues to draw the needy to him even across the ages? Why is it, but for this other extremism in his life, this extremity of humanity, that so many are attracted to him who nevertheless repudiate his message?

Richard Rorty thinks it actually impossible at one and the same time to live a life of self-sacrificial love, a life that blesses others and draws them into peaceful fellowship, and live in submission to an objective truth you believe is rejected by others only at the cost of their eternal life. He i! s sure that the one is the death of the other. I say to you, graduates, that your summons, your task in life, in obedience and in conformity to your Lord and Master Jesus Christ is to prove Richard Rorty wrong. And you do that by living extremely; by living a life that is both and always an extremism of truth and an extremism of love.


 

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-366008389-1058634958=:9714-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sat Jul 19 19:58:19 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:58:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! Message-ID: Deacon, You raise some legitimate concerns. All of information on General Wesley Clark can be found at www.DraftWesleyClark.com that you are asking. He more than a General. In terms of safety issues their are several. First, they are not the proper resources for the troops to fight a guerilla warfare war. That is not what they were told and trained for. Second, they are punished for expressing their concerns. Third, they are told, "You are going on *), then they are told, nope sorry you are staying longer. The unit that has suffered the greatest number of loses has been told they would go home after Baghdad. After Baghdad, they were told their unit will stay indefinitely. But don't take my word for it. Go talk to some soldiers and their families. I have two neighbors in my apartment complex with women who's husbands are over there. I suggest you talk to them. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: "Deacon James" >To: >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! >Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 00:22:28 -0700 > >Donovan, > >Golly, you make it sound like Bush is personally shooting the troops. How >exactly are our troops (whom I support wholeheartedly) being ignored and >mistreated? What needs and saftey issues are not being addressed? I am >unclear on these issues. > >Also, do we know anything about General Clark other than the fact that he >is >a veteran who sympathizes with soldiers? I wouldn't want to throw my lot in >with a fellow who stands on only one issue. > >Just some questions, >Deacon > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Donovan Arnold" >To: >Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 11:01 PM >Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help are dying troops! > > > > Community members, > > > > Everyday our troops are being shot at, killed, while drinking sodas, >buying > > a candy bar at the store, or just going to the edge of a river to cool >off. > > Meanwhile, their wives, husbands, sons, daughters, moms, dads, friends, >and > > other family members ring their hands wondering who is going to be taken >out > > next. I got an email from somebody recently that was friends with a boy >that > > was shot and killed next to Baghdad University. He was from Florida, and >not > > much older than a boy. > > Moral among are troops is at a record low as a buddy dies everyday and >many > > more are being badly wounded, with them having nobody to shoot at, no >army > > to fight, no enemy is defined. Bush has insulted our troops once before, >by > > challenging Iraqi troops to attack our troops and to "Bring it On!". > > Now, as troops write letters home to their congress members, the Bush > > Administration has been saying this is "untrue". A few troops have been > > frustrated by the Bush administration blocking their needs and safety >issues > > from being addressed, a few troops voiced this concern on TV. As a >result > > they are being reprimanded for their actions. > > I am appalled by this action and mistreatment of our troops. They are >dying > > and being ignored half way across the world. > > I am asking you to do something about this. I don't care if you are a > > Republican, Democrat, Independent, Libertarian, Green Party, Tax party, >or > > anything way left or right. What we all have in common is we are >Americans, > > and have a genuine belief in this country and the proper treatment of >our > > soldiers. Here is what I ask of all of you: > > > > Please go to www.DraftWesleyClark.com and write a letter to General >Wesley > > Clark. Clark is thinking of entering the race for the Presidency against > > Bush. Clark is a war hero and opposes Bush on his treatment of the >military > > personal. Please ask him to enter this race and hold Bush accountable >for > > the treatment of our troops. This is not a partisan issue. It doesn't >matter > > if are for or against the war. We are all for the proper treatment of >our > > Troops that fight and die every day for this country. > > Our troops deserve more than to be attacked and threatened by both Bush >and > > Saddam at the same time. Please help. Thank You! > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From thansen@moscow.com Sat Jul 19 20:19:32 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 12:19:32 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings Visionaires: Wake up, Mr. Arnold. Being a retired Army NCO, I can tell you that there are a different set of rules for the military versus being on the "outside". A soldier may quietly (and privately) question the orders of those appointed over him/her. But, the bottom line is that he/she gave an oath to obey those orders. As situations change, orders could possibly change. You DO NOT whine simply because things are different today than they were yesterday. When things aren't going "according to Hoyle", you do as a common Army slogan suggests, you suck it up and move on. Y Soldiers that whined under my supervision found themselves on details that truly gave them reason to whine. An Army platoon is one unit. It should never be looked at as 40 individuals. That is the primary reason how squads, platoons, companies, battalions, brigades, divisions, regiments, and the United States Army (as a whole) becomes effective. Tom Hansen SFC, U.S. Army (Retired) > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Donovan Arnold > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:58 AM > To: ddjames@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! > > > Deacon, > > You raise some legitimate concerns. All of information on General Wesley > Clark can be found at www.DraftWesleyClark.com that you are > asking. He more > than a General. > In terms of safety issues their are several. First, they are not > the proper > resources for the troops to fight a guerilla warfare war. That is > not what > they were told and trained for. Second, they are punished for expressing > their concerns. Third, they are told, "You are going on *), then they are > told, nope sorry you are staying longer. The unit that has suffered the > greatest number of loses has been told they would go home after Baghdad. > After Baghdad, they were told their unit will stay indefinitely. > But don't take my word for it. Go talk to some soldiers and their > families. > I have two neighbors in my apartment complex with women who's > husbands are > over there. I suggest you talk to them. > > Thanks! > > Donovan J Arnold > > > >From: "Deacon James" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! > >Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 00:22:28 -0700 > > > >Donovan, > > > >Golly, you make it sound like Bush is personally shooting the troops. How > >exactly are our troops (whom I support wholeheartedly) being ignored and > >mistreated? What needs and saftey issues are not being addressed? I am > >unclear on these issues. > > > >Also, do we know anything about General Clark other than the > fact that he > >is > >a veteran who sympathizes with soldiers? I wouldn't want to > throw my lot in > >with a fellow who stands on only one issue. > > > >Just some questions, > >Deacon > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Donovan Arnold" > >To: > >Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 11:01 PM > >Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help are dying troops! > > > > > > > Community members, > > > > > > Everyday our troops are being shot at, killed, while drinking sodas, > >buying > > > a candy bar at the store, or just going to the edge of a river to cool > >off. > > > Meanwhile, their wives, husbands, sons, daughters, moms, > dads, friends, > >and > > > other family members ring their hands wondering who is going > to be taken > >out > > > next. I got an email from somebody recently that was friends > with a boy > >that > > > was shot and killed next to Baghdad University. He was from > Florida, and > >not > > > much older than a boy. > > > Moral among are troops is at a record low as a buddy dies everyday and > >many > > > more are being badly wounded, with them having nobody to shoot at, no > >army > > > to fight, no enemy is defined. Bush has insulted our troops > once before, > >by > > > challenging Iraqi troops to attack our troops and to "Bring it On!". > > > Now, as troops write letters home to their congress members, the Bush > > > Administration has been saying this is "untrue". A few troops > have been > > > frustrated by the Bush administration blocking their needs and safety > >issues > > > from being addressed, a few troops voiced this concern on TV. As a > >result > > > they are being reprimanded for their actions. > > > I am appalled by this action and mistreatment of our troops. They are > >dying > > > and being ignored half way across the world. > > > I am asking you to do something about this. I don't care if you are a > > > Republican, Democrat, Independent, Libertarian, Green Party, > Tax party, > >or > > > anything way left or right. What we all have in common is we are > >Americans, > > > and have a genuine belief in this country and the proper treatment of > >our > > > soldiers. Here is what I ask of all of you: > > > > > > Please go to www.DraftWesleyClark.com and write a letter to General > >Wesley > > > Clark. Clark is thinking of entering the race for the > Presidency against > > > Bush. Clark is a war hero and opposes Bush on his treatment of the > >military > > > personal. Please ask him to enter this race and hold Bush accountable > >for > > > the treatment of our troops. This is not a partisan issue. It doesn't > >matter > > > if are for or against the war. We are all for the proper treatment of > >our > > > Troops that fight and die every day for this country. > > > Our troops deserve more than to be attacked and threatened by > both Bush > >and > > > Saddam at the same time. Please help. Thank You! > > > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From london@moscow.com Sat Jul 19 21:31:13 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:31:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse water References: <019d01c34d82$bf5cc0c0$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: <3F19AA91.61284E00@moscow.com> --------------DB4C2EC6BA92A718D4AD952B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit D- I don't quite get it. If you are looking for someone to tell you it's just fine to waste water 'cause you assume we must have plenty of it--you are not getting that from me. In response to your specific question, I think the best answer is: nobody really knows for sure. Just because all the geological specifics are not known is not license to continue to waste water. As I understand it, the city of Moscow and UI a few decades ago started sucking water from the deep aquifer since the shallower aquifer was going down and was not as pure (lots of iron, etc). So, since the wells are sucking the deep aquifer now, the shallow aquifer is able to refill. And since the water mining impact has shifted to the lower aquifer, it is dropping fast. Whether the water comes from the upper or lower aquifer (or if there are a myriad of aquifers down there), there is no justification for continued water mining. BL Dale Courtney wrote: > Bill,That doesn't cut it for an answer. The issue is not how much > water is or should be going to water golf courses. The question is -- > is the total amount of water of the two aquifers falling? Or is it > just the deep aquifer that is lowering? Please answer that one > question. Best, > Dale > > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Bill > London > Sent: Friday, 18 July, 2003 16:22 > To: David Camden-Britton > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse water > > Please do not be so quick to assume that Elsa Peters is > injecting fact into this discussion of aquifers (in her > letter reprinted below). > Elsa Peters reflects her own biases more than facts in her > letter about the aquifer. > She asserts that more water is pumped from the aquifer for > golf courses than is used in the ever-expanding number of > homes (each with toilets, lawns, sinks, etc). The UI golf > course uses recycled effluent water--not water pumped from > the aquifer. The Elks golf course has its own well that > pumps from the recharging upper aquifer. The homes in > Moscow rely on water pumped from the deep wells that are, in > fact, dropping more than a foot in depth annually. > Concern for this diminishing aquifer source is not an > irrational fear, it's just common sense. > BL > > David Camden-Britton wrote: > > > Great... Nice. Take a fine emotional issue that we can > > rant and rave about and inject facts into it! Fie upon > > this so-called "Geologist"! What is that anyway? > > Something like a geomancer? She's a wizard! Yes! > > > > PS: Thanks for the post, Dale. > > > > At 06:45 PM 7/17/2003 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > A few facts about Palouse water > > > > > > It's a nice change of pace to see Wayne Olson's letter to > > > the editor (Opinion, July 9) asking for facts, not > > > rhetoric, about "our aquifer." > > > > > > First fact: There are at least two aquifers below Pullman > > > and Moscow. There may be more, but two are known to all > > > drillers and geologists in the area. > > > > > > Second fact: The water level of the upper (more shallow) > > > aquifer is not dropping at all. Indeed, water levels in > > > the upper aquifer have done nothing but rise in my > > > lifetime (I'm 43). > > > > > > Third fact: The water levels near Moscow-Pullman city > > > wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That statement, > > > however, does not imply that the water levels farther > > > away are dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply > > > that we "will run out" of water in the lower aquifer. Ask > > > another geologist if you don't care to believe me on > > > these points. > > > > > > Fourth fact: Most water used in both Moscow and Pullman > > > during the summer is not consumed by "new housing > > > developments," a favorite target of members of the Moscow > > > Civic Association (most of whom, of course, were new > > > arrivals on the Palouse themselves some years back). Most > > > water used in the summer goes to watering golf courses, > > > not to flushing the toilets of new city residents. > > > > > > More facts and less fear could greatly help move our > > > public discussion of water use forward. Thanks, Wayne, > > > for asking. > > > > > > Elsa Kirsten Peters > > > > > > Pullman > > > > David Camden-Britton -=)*(=- davidcb@acm.org > > _____________________________________________________ List > > services made available by First Step Internet, serving > > the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > --------------DB4C2EC6BA92A718D4AD952B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D-
I don't quite get it.  If you are looking for someone to tell you it's just fine to waste water 'cause you assume we must have plenty of it--you are not getting that from me.
In response to your specific question, I think the best answer is: nobody really knows for sure.
Just because all the geological specifics are not known is not license to continue to waste water.
As I understand it, the city of Moscow and UI a few decades ago started sucking water from the deep aquifer since the shallower aquifer was going down and was not as pure (lots of iron, etc).  So, since the wells are sucking the deep aquifer now, the shallow aquifer is able to refill.
And since the water mining impact has shifted to the lower aquifer, it is dropping fast.
Whether the water comes from the upper or lower aquifer (or if there are a myriad of aquifers down there), there is no justification for continued water mining.
BL
 
 
 

Dale Courtney wrote:

 Bill,That doesn't cut it for an answer. The issue is not how much water is or should be going to water golf courses. The question is -- is the total amount of water of the two aquifers falling? Or is it just the deep aquifer that is lowering? Please answer that one question.  Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Bill London
Sent: Friday, 18 July, 2003 16:22
To: David Camden-Britton
Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse water
 
Please do not be so quick to assume that Elsa Peters is injecting fact into this discussion of aquifers (in her letter reprinted below).
Elsa Peters reflects her own biases more than facts in her letter about the aquifer.
She asserts that more water is pumped from the aquifer for golf courses than is used in the ever-expanding number of homes (each with toilets, lawns, sinks, etc).  The UI golf course uses recycled effluent water--not water pumped from the aquifer.  The Elks golf course has its own well that pumps from the recharging upper aquifer.  The homes in Moscow rely on water pumped from the deep wells that are, in fact, dropping more than a foot in depth annually.
Concern for this diminishing aquifer source is not an irrational fear, it's just common sense.
BL

David Camden-Britton wrote:

Great... Nice.  Take a fine emotional issue that we can rant and rave about and inject facts into it!  Fie upon this so-called "Geologist"!  What is that anyway?  Something like a geomancer?  She's a wizard!  Yes!

PS: Thanks for the post, Dale.

At 06:45 PM 7/17/2003 -0700, you wrote:

A few facts about Palouse water

It's a nice change of pace to see Wayne Olson's letter to the editor (Opinion, July 9) asking for facts, not rhetoric, about "our aquifer."

First fact: There are at least two aquifers below Pullman and Moscow. There may be more, but two are known to all drillers and geologists in the area.

Second fact: The water level of the upper (more shallow) aquifer is not dropping at all. Indeed, water levels in the upper aquifer have done nothing but rise in my lifetime (I'm 43).

Third fact: The water levels near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That statement, however, does not imply that the water levels farther away are dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run out" of water in the lower aquifer. Ask another geologist if you don't care to believe me on these points.

Fourth fact: Most water used in both Moscow and Pullman during the summer is not consumed by "new housing developments," a favorite target of members of the Moscow Civic Association (most of whom, of course, were new arrivals on the Palouse themselves some years back). Most water used in the summer goes to watering golf courses, not to flushing the toilets of new city residents.

More facts and less fear could greatly help move our public discussion of water use forward. Thanks, Wayne, for asking.

Elsa Kirsten Peters

Pullman

David Camden-Britton -=)*(=-  davidcb@acm.org _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

--------------DB4C2EC6BA92A718D4AD952B-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sat Jul 19 21:58:06 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:58:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! Message-ID: Mr. Hansen, I agree that soldiers should not whine. And a as a rule, they never do. But I tell you, when I guy has been to war,stays up for 4 days straight in 117 degree weather, is shot at, wounded, and has his buddies die. And he never whines. Then one day he does whine about something, but not just him, a great deal of others, that signals something to me. What are the odds of an ABC crew in a tightly restricted area stumbling upon thirteen soldiers that know full well what would happen to them if they spoke out, and still choose to speak out anyway? Not very likely unless there is something serious. I ask you Tom, having been in the military, what would be so bad to make you whine? Are you such a man that nothing would cause you to speak out for the other troops in your unit and take the reprimand? When a battle hardened troop whines, I think wow, what's going on? Not oh what a puss. Most people would not assume our troops are wimps, as you so quickly judge them to be. Donovan J Arnold >From: "Tom Hansen" >Reply-To: >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! >Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 12:19:32 -0700 > >Greetings Visionaires: > >Wake up, Mr. Arnold. > >Being a retired Army NCO, I can tell you that there are a different set of >rules for the military versus being on the "outside". > >A soldier may quietly (and privately) question the orders of those >appointed >over him/her. But, the bottom line is that he/she gave an oath to obey >those orders. > >As situations change, orders could possibly change. You DO NOT whine >simply >because things are different today than they were yesterday. When things >aren't going "according to Hoyle", you do as a common Army slogan suggests, >you suck it up and move on. Y > >Soldiers that whined under my supervision found themselves on details that >truly gave them reason to whine. > >An Army platoon is one unit. It should never be looked at as 40 >individuals. That is the primary reason how squads, platoons, companies, >battalions, brigades, divisions, regiments, and the United States Army (as >a >whole) becomes effective. > > >Tom Hansen >SFC, U.S. Army (Retired) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > Behalf Of Donovan Arnold > > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:58 AM > > To: ddjames@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! > > > > > > Deacon, > > > > You raise some legitimate concerns. All of information on General Wesley > > Clark can be found at www.DraftWesleyClark.com that you are > > asking. He more > > than a General. > > In terms of safety issues their are several. First, they are not > > the proper > > resources for the troops to fight a guerilla warfare war. That is > > not what > > they were told and trained for. Second, they are punished for expressing > > their concerns. Third, they are told, "You are going on *), then they >are > > told, nope sorry you are staying longer. The unit that has suffered the > > greatest number of loses has been told they would go home after Baghdad. > > After Baghdad, they were told their unit will stay indefinitely. > > But don't take my word for it. Go talk to some soldiers and their > > families. > > I have two neighbors in my apartment complex with women who's > > husbands are > > over there. I suggest you talk to them. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > >From: "Deacon James" > > >To: > > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! > > >Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 00:22:28 -0700 > > > > > >Donovan, > > > > > >Golly, you make it sound like Bush is personally shooting the troops. >How > > >exactly are our troops (whom I support wholeheartedly) being ignored >and > > >mistreated? What needs and saftey issues are not being addressed? I am > > >unclear on these issues. > > > > > >Also, do we know anything about General Clark other than the > > fact that he > > >is > > >a veteran who sympathizes with soldiers? I wouldn't want to > > throw my lot in > > >with a fellow who stands on only one issue. > > > > > >Just some questions, > > >Deacon > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Donovan Arnold" > > >To: > > >Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 11:01 PM > > >Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help are dying troops! > > > > > > > > > > Community members, > > > > > > > > Everyday our troops are being shot at, killed, while drinking sodas, > > >buying > > > > a candy bar at the store, or just going to the edge of a river to >cool > > >off. > > > > Meanwhile, their wives, husbands, sons, daughters, moms, > > dads, friends, > > >and > > > > other family members ring their hands wondering who is going > > to be taken > > >out > > > > next. I got an email from somebody recently that was friends > > with a boy > > >that > > > > was shot and killed next to Baghdad University. He was from > > Florida, and > > >not > > > > much older than a boy. > > > > Moral among are troops is at a record low as a buddy dies everyday >and > > >many > > > > more are being badly wounded, with them having nobody to shoot at, >no > > >army > > > > to fight, no enemy is defined. Bush has insulted our troops > > once before, > > >by > > > > challenging Iraqi troops to attack our troops and to "Bring it On!". > > > > Now, as troops write letters home to their congress members, the >Bush > > > > Administration has been saying this is "untrue". A few troops > > have been > > > > frustrated by the Bush administration blocking their needs and >safety > > >issues > > > > from being addressed, a few troops voiced this concern on TV. As a > > >result > > > > they are being reprimanded for their actions. > > > > I am appalled by this action and mistreatment of our troops. They >are > > >dying > > > > and being ignored half way across the world. > > > > I am asking you to do something about this. I don't care if you are >a > > > > Republican, Democrat, Independent, Libertarian, Green Party, > > Tax party, > > >or > > > > anything way left or right. What we all have in common is we are > > >Americans, > > > > and have a genuine belief in this country and the proper treatment >of > > >our > > > > soldiers. Here is what I ask of all of you: > > > > > > > > Please go to www.DraftWesleyClark.com and write a letter to General > > >Wesley > > > > Clark. Clark is thinking of entering the race for the > > Presidency against > > > > Bush. Clark is a war hero and opposes Bush on his treatment of the > > >military > > > > personal. Please ask him to enter this race and hold Bush >accountable > > >for > > > > the treatment of our troops. This is not a partisan issue. It >doesn't > > >matter > > > > if are for or against the war. We are all for the proper treatment >of > > >our > > > > Troops that fight and die every day for this country. > > > > Our troops deserve more than to be attacked and threatened by > > both Bush > > >and > > > > Saddam at the same time. Please help. Thank You! > > > > > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From davesway@hotmail.com Sat Jul 19 21:58:19 2003 From: davesway@hotmail.com (david sarff) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:58:19 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse water Message-ID: Mr Courtney, While I agree that yours and others questions are appropriate to be asked and deserve to be answered, I suspect that many people may not know how precipitously close Moscow may be to loosing local control of its water to the very sort of outside government that seemingly most local residents don’t want. It is my impression that the bottom-line fact being argued is that local governments have an agreement (a standard) that the City of Moscow has been violating for years. I assume and surely hope that the original agreement was based on local consensus based on information derived through the influence of generally agreed to scientific standards. If not, then these should be reinvestigated. If so, they should be upheld and enforced. David Sarff > >A few facts about Palouse water > >It's a nice change of pace to see Wayne Olson's letter to the editor >(Opinion, July 9) asking for facts, not rhetoric, about "our aquifer." > > >First fact: There are at least two aquifers below Pullman and Moscow. There >may be more, but two are known to all drillers and geologists in the area. > > >Second fact: The water level of the upper (more shallow) aquifer is not >dropping at all. Indeed, water levels in the upper aquifer have done >nothing >but rise in my lifetime (I'm 43). > > >Third fact: The water levels near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower >aquifer are dropping. That statement, however, does not imply that the >water >levels farther away are dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply >that we "will run out" of water in the lower aquifer. Ask another geologist >if you don't care to believe me on these points. > > >Fourth fact: Most water used in both Moscow and Pullman during the summer >is >not consumed by "new housing developments," a favorite target of members of >the Moscow Civic Association (most of whom, of course, were new arrivals on >the Palouse themselves some years back). Most water used in the summer goes >to watering golf courses, not to flushing the toilets of new city >residents. > > > >More facts and less fear could greatly help move our public discussion of >water use forward. Thanks, Wayne, for asking. > > >Elsa Kirsten Peters > > >Pullman > >David Camden-Britton -=)*(=- davidcb@acm.org >_____________________________________________________ List services made >available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse >since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sat Jul 19 22:22:22 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:22:22 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] "The Buck Stops Here" Message-ID: All: The Bush administration has cited the British and the CIA as sources for the lies he told the nation about Iraq's nuclear weapons program. But he claims he believed what he said was the truth. The article that the link below leads to suggests otherwise. This article suggests that the information that the Niger uranium purchase was questionable was known, before Bush gave the speech with the false information, by individuals in the US government who should have been listened to by Bush. So either the communications in the Bush administration are problematic in the extreme on such an important issue, or Bush and his advisers for the speech had an agenda that they wanted to make the Iraq uranium purchase assertion to make their case for war more powerful, and truth be damned! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8777-2003Jul17.html?nav=hptop_tb President Truman was well known for having a sign on his deck that read "The buck stops here." It appears George W. Bush needs a sign on his desk that reads "Pass the buck." Ted _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From thansen@moscow.com Sat Jul 19 22:32:09 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:32:09 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mr. Arnold - You stated: "Are you such a man that nothing would cause you to speak out for the other troops in your unit and take the reprimand?" How f***ing dare you even imply that I would not support my troops. I have gone to bat for troops within my squad (and later my platoon) several times. I have gone as far as putting my stripes on the Battalion Commander's desk. That is part of being an NCO. I feel that if my troops do not feel comfortable approaching me with a problem, then I have done something wrong. The foremost characteristic that I have emphasized in training has always been cohesion. Every soldier, from the newest private up to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, should feel more willing to discuss problems with his/her first-line supervisor than taking it up with the media. And what branch of the service were you in, Mr. Arnold. For how long? I am not suggesting that you walk a mile in someon'e shoes before you criticise them. But you should, at minimum know how it feels to wear them. As far as combat tours are concerned, I served a year in Vietnam. I don't care to discuss that part of my life and I certainly will not discuss it here. Tom Hansen SFC, U.S. Army (Retired) From thansen@moscow.com Sat Jul 19 22:34:06 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:34:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] "The Buck Stops Here" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A agree, Mr. Moffett. King George may not have inventing passing the buck, but he certainly has perfected its science. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Ted Moffett > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 2:22 PM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Cc: ted_moffett@hotmail.com > Subject: [Vision2020] "The Buck Stops Here" > > > > All: > > The Bush administration has cited the British and the CIA as > sources for the > lies he told the nation about Iraq's nuclear weapons program. > But he claims > he believed what he said was the truth. > > The article that the link below leads to suggests otherwise. > This article > suggests that the information that the Niger uranium purchase was > questionable was known, before Bush gave the speech with the false > information, by individuals in the US government who should have been > listened to by Bush. So either the communications in the Bush > administration are problematic in the extreme on such an > important issue, or > Bush and his advisers for the speech had an agenda that they > wanted to make > the Iraq uranium purchase assertion to make their case for war more > powerful, and truth be damned! > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8777-2003Jul17.html > ?nav=hptop_tb > > President Truman was well known for having a sign on his deck > that read "The > buck stops here." > It appears George W. Bush needs a sign on his desk that reads "Pass the > buck." > > Ted > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sat Jul 19 22:35:46 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:35:46 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] "The Buck Stops Here": Washington Post Article Included Message-ID: All: The link to the Washington Post story I posted earlier might not work. Here is the article pasted into this e-mail: U.S. Had Uranium Papers Earlier Officials Say Forgeries on Iraqi Efforts Reached State Dept. Before Speech By Walter Pincus and Dana Priest Washington Post Staff Writers Friday, July 18, 2003; Page A01 The State Department received copies of what would turn out to be forged documents suggesting that Iraq tried to purchase uranium oxide from Niger three months before the president's State of the Union address, administration officials said. The documents, which officials said appeared to be of "dubious authenticity," were distributed to the CIA and other agencies within days. But the U.S. government waited four months to turn them over to United Nations weapons inspectors who had been demanding to see evidence of U.S. and British claims that Iraq's attempted purchase of uranium oxide violated U.N. resolutions and was among the reasons to go to war. State Department officials could not say yesterday why they did not turn over the documents when the inspectors asked for them in December. The administration, facing increased criticism over the claims it made about Iraq's attempts to buy uranium, had said until now that it did not have the documents before the State of the Union speech. Even before these documents arrived, both the State Department and the CIA had questions about the reliability of intelligence reports that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger and other African countries. Beginning in October, the CIA warned the administration not to use the Niger claim in public. CIA Director George J. Tenet personally persuaded deputy national security adviser Stephen Hadley to omit it from President Bush's Oct. 7 speech in Cincinnati about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein. But on the eve of Bush's Jan. 28 State of the Union address, Robert Joseph, an assistant to the president in charge of nonproliferation at the National Security Council (NSC), initially asked the CIA if the allegation that Iraq sought to purchase 500 pounds of uranium from Niger could be included in the presidential speech. Alan Foley, a senior CIA official, disclosed this detail when he accompanied Tenet in a closed-door hearing before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence on Wednesday. Foley, director of the CIA's intelligence, nonproliferation and arms control center, told committee members that the controversial 16-word sentence was eventually suggested by Joseph in a telephone conversation just a day or two before the speech, according to congressional and administration sources who were present at the five-hour session. At the hearing, Foley said he called Joseph to object to mentioning Niger and that a specific amount of uranium was being sought. Joseph agreed to eliminate those two elements but then proposed that the speech use more general language, citing British intelligence that said Iraq had recently been seeking uranium in Africa. Foley said he told Joseph that the CIA had objected months earlier to the British including that in their published September dossier because of the weakness of the U.S. information. But Foley said the British had gone ahead based on their own information. When Foley first began answering questions on who from the White House staff sought to put the uranium charge in the State of the Union address, he did not mention Joseph's name, referring only to "a person" at the NSC. It was only after Sen. Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.) and several other senators demanded the name that he identified him. A senior administration official said yesterday the only conversation that took place was about the classification of the source of the alleged uranium transaction. The question was whether to attribute the alleged transaction to a classified U.S. intelligence estimate or to a published British dossier and, he said, it was "agreed to use the British." However, there are six other references to information carried in the U.S. estimate, and they are attributed to "U.S. intelligence" or "intelligence sources." Both the Senate committee and the White House have begun internal discussions over how to handle the potentially delicate task of questioning presidential aides as part of a congressional investigation. Claims of executive privilege have in the past increased public interest and complicated the process of calling on White House aides to testify. Intelligence Committee Chairman Pat Roberts (R-Kan.) said Wednesday night: "We will take this where it leads us. We'll let the chips fall where they may." A senior congressional aide said Roberts is prepared to seek a way to question Joseph and any other White House aides. Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV (W.Va.), the ranking Democrat on the panel, said yesterday: "The intelligence committee has crossed that line . . . and we are looking at people in the executive branch, including the White House." He said that both Republicans and Democrats are concerned "about the further implication beyond Tenet." The FBI is also considering opening a counterintelligence case if it suspects a foreign government created the forgeries about the alleged Iraqi uranium purchase to influence U.S. foreign policy. Next week, the Senate intelligence committee will hold a closed-door hearing to question the CIA's inspector general, who has been investigating the agency's handling of nuclear-related intelligence on Iraq. The documents first came into the U.S. government's hands when a journalist turned them over to U.S. Embassy officials in Rome. Other officials said previously that the Italian intelligence services had given the documents to the British, which first mentioned the Niger-Iraq claim in its published case against Iraq in September. "We acquired the documents in October of 2002, and they were shared widely within the U.S. government, with all the appropriate agencies in various ways," State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said yesterday. The embassy promptly informed the CIA station chief in Rome that it had the documents and, on Oct. 19, gave copies to intelligence officials. A senior intelligence official said the agency did not consider the documents revelatory because they contained the same information, from other sources, already in intelligence reports. But in hindsight, the official said, "we failed to see the signals" that would have indicated they were forged. Another intelligence official said "the documents were such a minor point of analysis for anyone" because the information was not deemed reliable. On Feb. 4, the U.N. inspectors' Iraq team was called to the U.S. mission in Vienna and verbally briefed on the contents of the documents. A day later, they received copies, according to officials familiar with the inspectors' work. Using the Google Internet search engine, books on Niger and interviews with Iraqi and Nigerien officials, International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) experts determined that the documents were fake. On March 7, IAEA Director General Mohamed ElBaradei announced they were forged. It is not yet known who created the forgeries. İ 2003 The Washington Post Company _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sat Jul 19 23:12:58 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:12:58 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! Message-ID: Well Tom, Now you know how offended I feel about! Irritating isn't it? I have every right to insult a man that insults our troops. I will do it again, and again, and again. For someone that says he supports his troops, you ain't doing much about it now are you? WAKE UP Mr. Hansen! Are troops are getting picked off one by one everyday, they are sitting ducks that can't do crap about it. Even the Centcom Commander has stated the troops' needs are being ignored by higher members of the military. The only reason you spent one year in Vietnam was because people back in the states fought against it. They didn't say "Oh what a bunch of pussies." Yet, you having been there, and won't even write ONE letter to ONE person to ask that their commanders address a few of their concerns. That is called hypocritical. I think you should be ashamed. As for my service to the military, it was not the same as yours. But it was none the less very costly. I never even knew my father until I 12 years old. My father was gone all the time until then. I never got to play ball with my daddy. He never taught me to ride a bike, or play baseball. It was my older brother that took on this role. WHY? Because my dad was gone all the time, on tours on ships. Sometimes, I would not see my father for 6-8 months at a time. He was not even around when I was born! When I see children all across this country suffer the same fate of a mom or dad being gone for one-five years at a time, if they return at all, for the sake of this stupid unjust war, if makes my blood boil. Their is no reason men and women should be away from their spouses and children for that long. Some children have both parents over there. BOTH! No parents. What kind of crap is that Mr. Hansen? If you don't have the courage to say something for the sake of our Troops or their families than I question your integrity and commitment to the welfare of the American People. If you have, then thanks, don't write back implying that you have not and ruffel my feathers. If you don't write, to any authority, I have zero respect for you because you are hypocrit to get advantages for people protesting here against the unjust war you were in BUT will not do the same for others in the same situation. Donovan J Arnold >From: "Tom Hansen" >Reply-To: >To: "Donovan Arnold" >CC: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! >Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:32:09 -0700 > >Mr. Arnold - > >You stated: > >"Are you such a man that nothing would cause you to speak out for the other >troops in your unit and take the reprimand?" > >How f***ing dare you even imply that I would not support my troops. > >I have gone to bat for troops within my squad (and later my platoon) >several >times. I have gone as far as putting my stripes on the Battalion >Commander's desk. That is part of being an NCO. I feel that if my troops >do not feel comfortable approaching me with a problem, then I have done >something wrong. The foremost characteristic that I have emphasized in >training has always been cohesion. Every soldier, from the newest private >up to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, should feel more willing >to >discuss problems with his/her first-line supervisor than taking it up with >the media. > >And what branch of the service were you in, Mr. Arnold. For how long? > >I am not suggesting that you walk a mile in someon'e shoes before you >criticise them. But you should, at minimum know how it feels to wear them. > >As far as combat tours are concerned, I served a year in Vietnam. I don't >care to discuss that part of my life and I certainly will not discuss it >here. > >Tom Hansen >SFC, U.S. Army (Retired) > _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From dkaag@turbonet.com Sat Jul 19 23:35:36 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:35:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <510CA5CD-BA39-11D7-B73C-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Mr. Arnold: I take exception to your rude address of Tom Hansen, questioning his integrity and committment and calling him a hypocrite. Even for an immature, clueless, bleeding heart like you, that is slimy. You haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about, and obviously haven't thought through calling a man who wore his country's uniform for 20 years, and put his life on the line for you and those like you, such demeaning things. And stop whining, because the military is not responsible for your personal angst. Talk about self-centered... now your "service in the military" consists of being weaned and potty-trained while your father was at sea! Do you think that you are the only child born while their father was deployed? Millions of children born during World War II fit that description, and many thousands since. Get a grip. If you feel so strongly about how the military is being mistreated, try being part of the solution. How about heading on down to the mall and raising your right hand for a four year tour? I didn't think so. Until then, shut up. Don Kaag On Saturday, July 19, 2003, at 03:12 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote: > Well Tom, > > Now you know how offended I feel about! Irritating isn't it? I have > every right to insult a man that insults our troops. I will do it > again, and again, and again. For someone that says he supports his > troops, you ain't doing much about it now are you? WAKE UP Mr. Hansen! > Are troops are getting picked off one by one everyday, they are > sitting ducks that can't do crap about it. Even the Centcom Commander > has stated the troops' needs are being ignored by higher members of > the military. The only reason you spent one year in Vietnam was > because people back in the states fought against it. They didn't say > "Oh what a bunch of pussies." Yet, you having been there, and won't > even write ONE letter to ONE person to ask that their commanders > address a few of their concerns. That is called hypocritical. I think > you should be ashamed. > As for my service to the military, it was not the same as yours. But > it was none the less very costly. I never even knew my father until I > 12 years old. My father was gone all the time until then. I never got > to play ball with my daddy. He never taught me to ride a bike, or play > baseball. It was my older brother that took on this role. WHY? Because > my dad was gone all the time, on tours on ships. Sometimes, I would > not see my father for 6-8 months at a time. He was not even around > when I was born! > When I see children all across this country suffer the same fate of a > mom or dad being gone for one-five years at a time, if they return at > all, for the sake of this stupid unjust war, if makes my blood boil. > Their is no reason men and women should be away from their spouses and > children for that long. Some children have both parents over there. > BOTH! No parents. What kind of crap is that Mr. Hansen? > If you don't have the courage to say something for the sake of our > Troops or their families than I question your integrity and commitment > to the welfare of the American People. If you have, then thanks, don't > write back implying that you have not and ruffel my feathers. If you > don't write, to any authority, I have zero respect for you because you > are hypocrit to get advantages for people protesting here against the > unjust war you were in BUT will not do the same for others in the same > situation. > > Donovan J Arnold > > >> From: "Tom Hansen" >> Reply-To: >> To: "Donovan Arnold" >> CC: >> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! >> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:32:09 -0700 >> >> Mr. Arnold - >> >> You stated: >> >> "Are you such a man that nothing would cause you to speak out for the >> other >> troops in your unit and take the reprimand?" >> >> How f***ing dare you even imply that I would not support my troops. >> >> I have gone to bat for troops within my squad (and later my platoon) >> several >> times. I have gone as far as putting my stripes on the Battalion >> Commander's desk. That is part of being an NCO. I feel that if my >> troops >> do not feel comfortable approaching me with a problem, then I have >> done >> something wrong. The foremost characteristic that I have emphasized >> in >> training has always been cohesion. Every soldier, from the newest >> private >> up to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, should feel more >> willing to >> discuss problems with his/her first-line supervisor than taking it up >> with >> the media. >> >> And what branch of the service were you in, Mr. Arnold. For how long? >> >> I am not suggesting that you walk a mile in someon'e shoes before you >> criticise them. But you should, at minimum know how it feels to wear >> them. >> >> As far as combat tours are concerned, I served a year in Vietnam. I >> don't >> care to discuss that part of my life and I certainly will not discuss >> it >> here. >> >> Tom Hansen >> SFC, U.S. Army (Retired) >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the > communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From thansen@moscow.com Sat Jul 19 23:38:09 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:38:09 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mr. Arnold - Your last posting reflect your definite lack of maturity. You feel you have the right to criticise a disably retired veteran such as myself (a lifetime member of DAV as a result of a training accident) without having served one day in uniform. You expect me to side with you simply because your father apparently had less maturity than you (if that is possible). You hadn't had the "pleasure" of your father's company until you were 12. I know of several veterans whose children never got any closer to them than rubbing their fingers over a name on a wall in Washington DC. And you consider yourself a patriot? According to your last posting, it reflects more bravery to write letters than it does to put on the uniform for 20 years. Have you even visited a military installation? Have you even writen a solder? Or do you restric your immature banter to this forum and hide behind the comfort of your keyboard. Pro Patria, Tom Hansen SFC, US Army (Retired) From dale@courtneys.us Sat Jul 19 23:37:29 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:37:29 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse water In-Reply-To: <3F19AA91.61284E00@moscow.com> Message-ID: <01e601c34e46$567cc2c0$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01E7_01C34E0B.AA1DEAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, =20 First, I'm not talking about "wasting" water. I've been very diligent to follow the evening watering times, install drip systems in my garden, = and reset the sprinklers to ensure no water gets on the driveway/pavement.=20 =20 However, what may be a waste for you and me (watering golf courses) may = not be a waste to someone else. In an allegedly "free" country, people = should have the right to make that decision -- don't you agree?=20 =20 Second, what do we know?=20 * We do know that the level in the Grande Ronde aquifer is falling 1-2 ft/year for the last 50 years.=20 * We do know that the level in the Wanapum aquifer has been rising for the last 40 years.=20 However, if our water supply were really depleting, as the MCA alleges, = I'd be marching with you down the path to increase prices on water (since = that would lower usage).=20 =20 However, since the total water available to us is not decreasing but = perhaps is even increasing, MCA is going down the wrong path.=20 =20 Finally, I think it is deceptive of the MCA to tell everyone that our = water supply is dwindling without acknowledging the Wanapum aquifer and what = is available to us. I think that you would have more allies in this fight = if you were open and honest with your information and data. Instead, it = looks like you are hiding the facts in order to press your agenda.=20 =20 Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of Bill London Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003 13:31 To: Dale Courtney Cc: 'David Camden-Britton'; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse water D-=20 I don't quite get it. If you are looking for someone to tell you it's = just fine to waste water 'cause you assume we must have plenty of it--you are = not getting that from me.=20 In response to your specific question, I think the best answer is: = nobody really knows for sure.=20 Just because all the geological specifics are not known is not license = to continue to waste water.=20 As I understand it, the city of Moscow and UI a few decades ago started sucking water from the deep aquifer since the shallower aquifer was = going down and was not as pure (lots of iron, etc). So, since the wells are sucking the deep aquifer now, the shallow aquifer is able to refill.=20 And since the water mining impact has shifted to the lower aquifer, it = is dropping fast.=20 Whether the water comes from the upper or lower aquifer (or if there are = a myriad of aquifers down there), there is no justification for continued water mining.=20 BL=20 =20 =20 =20 Dale Courtney wrote:=20 Bill,That doesn't cut it for an answer. The issue is not how much water = is or should be going to water golf courses. The question is -- is the = total amount of water of the two aquifers falling? Or is it just the deep = aquifer that is lowering? Please answer that one question. Best,=20 Dale=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of Bill London=20 Sent: Friday, 18 July, 2003 16:22=20 To: David Camden-Britton=20 Cc: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A few facts about Palouse water=20 =20 Please do not be so quick to assume that Elsa Peters is injecting fact = into this discussion of aquifers (in her letter reprinted below).=20 Elsa Peters reflects her own biases more than facts in her letter about = the aquifer.=20 She asserts that more water is pumped from the aquifer for golf courses = than is used in the ever-expanding number of homes (each with toilets, lawns, sinks, etc). The UI golf course uses recycled effluent water--not water pumped from the aquifer. The Elks golf course has its own well that = pumps from the recharging upper aquifer. The homes in Moscow rely on water = pumped from the deep wells that are, in fact, dropping more than a foot in = depth annually.=20 Concern for this diminishing aquifer source is not an irrational fear, = it's just common sense.=20 BL=20 David Camden-Britton wrote:=20 Great... Nice. Take a fine emotional issue that we can rant and rave = about and inject facts into it! Fie upon this so-called "Geologist"! What is that anyway? Something like a geomancer? She's a wizard! Yes!=20 PS: Thanks for the post, Dale.=20 At 06:45 PM 7/17/2003 -0700, you wrote:=20 A few facts about Palouse water=20 It's a nice change of pace to see Wayne Olson's letter to the editor (Opinion, July 9) asking for facts, not rhetoric, about "our aquifer."=20 First fact: There are at least two aquifers below Pullman and Moscow. = There may be more, but two are known to all drillers and geologists in the = area.=20 Second fact: The water level of the upper (more shallow) aquifer is not dropping at all. Indeed, water levels in the upper aquifer have done = nothing but rise in my lifetime (I'm 43).=20 Third fact: The water levels near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That statement, however, does not imply that the = water levels farther away are dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run out" of water in the lower aquifer. Ask another = geologist if you don't care to believe me on these points.=20 Fourth fact: Most water used in both Moscow and Pullman during the = summer is not consumed by "new housing developments," a favorite target of members = of the Moscow Civic Association (most of whom, of course, were new arrivals = on the Palouse themselves some years back). Most water used in the summer = goes to watering golf courses, not to flushing the toilets of new city = residents. More facts and less fear could greatly help move our public discussion = of water use forward. Thanks, Wayne, for asking.=20 Elsa Kirsten Peters=20 Pullman David Camden-Britton -=3D)*(=3D- davidcb@acm.org _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------=_NextPart_000_01E7_01C34E0B.AA1DEAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Bill,
 
First,=20 I'm not talking about "wasting" water. I've been very diligent to follow = the=20 evening watering times, install drip systems in my garden, and reset the = sprinklers to ensure no water gets on the driveway/pavement.=20
 
However, what may be a waste for you and me (watering golf = courses) may=20 not be a waste to someone else. In an allegedly "free" country, people = should=20 have the right to make that decision -- don't you agree? =
 
Second, what do we know?
  • We=20 do know that the level in the Grande Ronde aquifer is falling = 1-2=20 ft/year for the last 50 years.
  • We=20 do know that the level in the Wanapum aquifer has been rising = for the=20 last 40 years.
However, if our water supply were really depleting, as the MCA = alleges,=20 I'd be marching with you down the path to increase prices on water = (since that=20 would lower usage).
 
However, since the total water available to us is = not=20 decreasing but perhaps is even increasing, MCA is going down the wrong = path.=20
 
Finally, I think it is deceptive of the MCA to tell everyone = that our=20 water supply is dwindling without acknowledging the Wanapum aquifer and = what is=20 available to us. I think that you would have more allies in this fight = if you=20 were open and honest with your information and data. Instead, it looks = like you=20 are hiding the facts in order to press your agenda.
 
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On = Behalf=20 Of Bill London
Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003 = 13:31
To:=20 Dale Courtney
Cc: 'David Camden-Britton';=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A few facts = about=20 Palouse water

D-
I don't quite get it.  = If you=20 are looking for someone to tell you it's just fine to waste water = 'cause you=20 assume we must have plenty of it--you are not getting that from me. =
In=20 response to your specific question, I think the best answer is: nobody = really=20 knows for sure.
Just because all the geological specifics are not = known is=20 not license to continue to waste water.
As I understand it, the = city of=20 Moscow and UI a few decades ago started sucking water from the deep = aquifer=20 since the shallower aquifer was going down and was not as pure (lots = of iron,=20 etc).  So, since the wells are sucking the deep aquifer now, the = shallow=20 aquifer is able to refill.
And since the water mining impact has = shifted=20 to the lower aquifer, it is dropping fast.
Whether the water comes = from=20 the upper or lower aquifer (or if there are a myriad of aquifers down = there),=20 there is no justification for continued water mining.
BL =
 =20
 
 =20

Dale Courtney wrote:=20

 Bill,That doesn't cut = it for an=20 answer. The issue is not how much water is or should be going to = water golf=20 courses. The question is = -- is the=20 total amount of water of the two aquifers falling? Or is it=20 just the deep aquifer that is=20 lowering? Please answer = that one=20 question.  Best,
Dale=20
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@mosco= w.com]=20 On Behalf Of Bill London
Sent: Friday, 18 July, 2003 16:22 =
To: David = Camden-Britton=20
Cc:=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A few facts about = Palouse=20 water
 
Please do not be so quick to = assume=20 that Elsa Peters is injecting fact into this discussion of = aquifers (in=20 her letter reprinted below).
Elsa Peters reflects her own = biases more=20 than facts in her letter about the aquifer.
She asserts that = more=20 water is pumped from the aquifer for golf courses than is used in = the=20 ever-expanding number of homes (each with toilets, lawns, sinks,=20 etc).  The UI golf course uses recycled effluent water--not = water=20 pumped from the aquifer.  The Elks golf course has its own = well that=20 pumps from the recharging upper aquifer.  The homes in Moscow = rely on=20 water pumped from the deep wells that are, in fact, dropping more = than a=20 foot in depth annually.
Concern for this diminishing aquifer = source is=20 not an irrational fear, it's just common sense.
BL=20

David Camden-Britton wrote:=20

Great... Nice.  Take a fine = emotional issue=20 that we can rant and rave about and inject facts into it!  = Fie upon=20 this so-called "Geologist"!  What is that anyway?  = Something=20 like a geomancer?  She's a wizard!  Yes!=20

PS: Thanks for the post, Dale.=20

At 06:45 PM 7/17/2003 -0700, you wrote:=20

A=20 few facts about Palouse water=20

It's a nice change of pace to see = Wayne Olson's=20 letter to the editor (Opinion, July 9) asking for facts, not = rhetoric,=20 about "our aquifer."=20

First fact: There are at least two = aquifers=20 below Pullman and Moscow. There may be more, but two are known = to all=20 drillers and geologists in the area.=20

Second fact: The water level of the = upper (more=20 shallow) aquifer is not dropping at all. Indeed, water levels = in the=20 upper aquifer have done nothing but rise in my lifetime (I'm=20 43).=20

Third fact: The water levels near=20 Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. = That=20 statement, however, does not imply that the water levels = farther away=20 are dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we = "will run=20 out" of water in the lower aquifer. Ask another geologist if = you don't=20 care to believe me on these points.=20

Fourth fact: Most water used in both = Moscow and=20 Pullman during the summer is not consumed by "new housing=20 developments," a favorite target of members of the Moscow = Civic=20 Association (most of whom, of course, were new arrivals on the = Palouse=20 themselves some years back). Most water used in the summer = goes to=20 watering golf courses, not to flushing the toilets of new city = residents.=20

More facts and less fear could = greatly help=20 move our public discussion of water use forward. Thanks, = Wayne, for=20 asking.=20

Elsa Kirsten Peters=20

Pullman

David = Camden-Britton=20 -=3D)*(=3D-  davidcb@acm.org=20 _____________________________________________________ List = services made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse=20 since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF

<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_01E7_01C34E0B.AA1DEAC0-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 00:48:19 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:48:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! Message-ID: Mr. Hansen, I would gladly be lacking in maturity than to being a self-righteous cold hearted fool. I would gladly take a battle injury in return for the years that I lost with my father. But you didn't get your injuries in battle did you? No, so don't play that card with me. I strongly support our troops, you don't. You want them to be picked off one by one like a bunch cattle in a shooting range and not complain about it. Your write: "You expect me to side with you simply because your father apparently had less maturity than you" Insulting my father will get you no place you want to go with me. My father was a true patriot. He respects the men and women in uniform and they respected him. He has saved many lives in action. He designed the electronics for the Tomahawk cruise missile. Ever here of that? As far as being immature, he was mature enough to rise out of poverty and do something with his life. And he was mature enough not to allow the men under his command to be injured. He went to great lengths to avoid that from happening. I wish your commanders would have done the same thing so you would not have been injured. It is sad and unfortunate. And yes I have written men in uniform before, my father one, and my brother the other. Yes, I have been to many military bases all across this country. I even lived on them, for many years. I was yanked from one place to another, back and forth, up and down, all across the country. I went to eleven different schools between preschool-12th grades, that I can remember, maybe more. "I know of several veterans whose children never got any closer to them than rubbing their fingers over a name on a wall in Washington DC." As do I. I have been there. And that is what I am trying to fight, why don't you? I was lucky, I got to know my Dad later on and I know that. You want to add to that list? Why? Why not fight it Mr. Hansen? Why not fight battle field injuries? Do you feel that it is necessary to have this continue? What did we gain being in Vietnam and Iraq? Is it even close to the cost of killing and wounding our men and women in uniform? "According to your last posting, it reflects more bravery to write letters than it does to put on the uniform for 20 years Nope, not at all, but it is the very least people can do to help out the men and women in uniform. It is not patriotic to allow our boys and girls to die senselessly in battle over non-existent weapons of mass destruction. Our military is not suppose to be used as green plastic army men for the pleasure of Bush to promote and steal oil from an impoverish and suppressed people on the other side of the planet. The beltway sniper wore a uniform. The men at West Point that tortured and raped women wore a uniform. Countless men in jail for theft, rape, and murder fill our prisons. Are they patriots? I don't think so. A friend of mines children were molested by a sergeant in the military, was he a patriot? He was injured in battle in Vietnam too. I still don't qualify him as a patriot either. Just now on the news as I write this, another man was killed, next to a bank, another 4 wounded in the attack. That brings the number to 149 since the war was declared over. I ask you Mr. Hansen at what point will you write a letter and say something? 150 troops, 200? 300? 1000? 5,000? I appreciate you service Mr. Hansen. But that is no excuse to alienate our troops when they need you now. I really have a hard understanding why that is so difficult for you? Donovan J Arnold >From: "Tom Hansen" >Reply-To: >To: "Donovan Arnold" >CC: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! >Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:38:09 -0700 > >Mr. Arnold - > >Your last posting reflect your definite lack of maturity. > >You feel you have the right to criticise a disably retired veteran such as >myself (a lifetime member of DAV as a result of a training accident) >without >having served one day in uniform. You expect me to side with you simply >because your father apparently had less maturity than you (if that is >possible). > >You hadn't had the "pleasure" of your father's company until you were 12. >I >know of several veterans whose children never got any closer to them than >rubbing their fingers over a name on a wall in Washington DC. And you >consider yourself a patriot? > >. Have you even visited a >military installation? Have you even writen a solder? Or do you restric >your immature banter to this forum and hide behind the comfort of your >keyboard. > >Pro Patria, > >Tom Hansen >SFC, US Army (Retired) > > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 00:59:27 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:59:27 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] The Article-Please Help our dying troops! Message-ID: A military veteran who was stationed in Iraq, sent this to me and asked for my help. Please it and write your congressmember. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >Fallujah, Iraq -- Morale is dipping pretty low among U.S. soldiers > >as they > > > stew in Iraq's broiling heat, get shot at by an increasingly > >hostile population > > > and get repeated orders to extend their tours of duty. Ask any > >grunt standing > > > guard on a 115-degree day what he or she thinks of the open-ended > >Iraq > > > occupation, and you'll get an earful of colorful complaints. But > >going public isn't > > > always easy, as soldiers of the Army's Second Brigade, Third > >Infantry Division > > > found out after "Good Morning America" aired their complaints. The > >brigade's > > > soldiers received word this week from the Pentagon that it was > >extending their > > > stay, with a vague promise to send them home by September if the > >security > > > situation allows. They've been away from home since September, and > >this week's > > > announcement was the third time their mission has been extended. It > >was bad news > > > for the division's 12,000 homesick soldiers, who were at the > >forefront of the > > > force that overthrew Saddam Hussein's government and moved into > >Baghdad in > > > early April. On Wednesday morning, when the ABC news show reported > >from Fallujah, > > > where the division is based, the troops gave the reporters an > >earful. One > > > soldier said he felt like he'd been "kicked in the guts, slapped in > >the face." > > > Another demanded that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld quit. The > >retaliation > > > from Washington was swift. > > > > > > CAREERS OVER FOR SOME > > > > > > "It was the end of the world," said one officer Thursday. "It went > >all the > > > way up to President Bush and back down again on top of us. At least > >six of us > > > here will lose our careers." First lesson for the troops, it > >seemed: Don't ever > > > talk to the media "on the record" -- that is, with your name > >attached -- > > > unless you're giving the sort of chin-forward, everything's-great > >message the > > > Pentagon loves to hear. Only two days before the ABC show, > >similarly bitter > > > sentiments -- with no names attached -- were voiced in an anonymous > >e-mail > > > circulating around the Internet, allegedly from "the soldiers of > >the Second Brigade, > > > Third ID." "Our morale is not high or even low," the letter > >said. "Our morale is > > > nonexistent. We have been told twice that we were going home, and > >twice we > > > have received a 'stop' movement to stay in Iraq." The message, > >whose authenticity > > > could not be confirmed, concluded: "Our men and women deserve to be > >treated > > > like the heroes they are, not like farm animals. Our men and women > >deserve to > > > see their loved ones again and deserve to come home." After this > >one-two punch, > > > it was perhaps natural that on Thursday, the same troops and > >officers who had > > > been garrulous and outspoken in previous visits were quiet, and > >most declined > > > to speak on the record. During a visit to Fallujah, a small city > >about 30 > > > miles west of Baghdad, military officials expressed intense chagrin > >about the bad > > > publicity. And they slammed the ABC reporters for focusing on the > >soldiers' > > > criticism of Rumsfeld, Bush and other officials and implying that > >they are > > > unwilling to carry out their mission. > > > > > > COMPLAINTS CALLED ROUTINE > > > > > > "Soldiers have bitched since the beginning of time," said Capt. > >James > > > Brownlee, the public affairs officer for the Second > >Brigade. "That's part of being a > > > soldier. They bitch. But what does 'bad morale' really mean? That > >they're not > > > combat-ready or loyal? Nobody here fits that definition." The > >nervousness of > > > the brass has a venerable history. It has long been a practice in > >American > > > democracy that the military do not criticize the nation's civilian > >leaders, as > > > Gen. Douglas MacArthur found out in 1951, when he criticized > >President Harry > > > Truman's Korean War strategy -- and was promptly fired. Yet several > >U.S. officers > > > said privately that troop morale is indeed low. "The problem is not > >the heat," > > > said one high-ranking officer. "Soldiers get used to that. The > >problem is > > > getting orders to go home, so your wife gets all psyched about it, > >then getting > > > them reversed, and then having the same process two more times." In > >Baghdad, > > > average soldiers from other Army brigades are eager to spill > >similar complaints. > > > "I'm not sure people in Washington really know what it's like > >here," said > > > Corp. Todd Burchard as he stood on a street corner, sweating > >profusely and > > > looking bored. "We'll keep doing our jobs as best as anyone can, > >but we shouldn't > > > have to still be here in the first place." Nearby, Pfc. Jason Ring > >stood next to > > > his Humvee. "We liberated Iraq. Now the people here don't want us > >here, and > > > guess what? We don't want to be here either," he said. "So why are > >we still > > > here? Why don't they bring us home?" _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 02:30:15 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 01:30:15 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Cynical and Orchestated Message-ID: All: "Never before in my 40 years of experience in this town has intelligence been used in so cynical and so orchestrated a way" --Raymond McGovern, former CIA analyst. Link to CBS news report quoting former CIA investigator Raymond McGovern: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/25/iraq/main560449.shtml Ted _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From dfrench@moscow.com Sun Jul 20 02:49:26 2003 From: dfrench@moscow.com (French) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:49:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water Message-ID: <002401c34e61$26cd7860$6401a8c0@Dianne> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C34E26.7A331E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those wishing to review water levels in the shallower Wanapum = aquifer (no they haven't increased steadily over the past 42 years) and = any other facts about our current water supply, may I direct you to the = Palouse Basin Water Committee (PBAC) web site at www.uidaho.edu/pbac If = a concerned citizen were to open and review the 2000 Annual Report, that = citizen would find a wealth of information including a graph of water = levels in the Wanapum aquifer. The 2001 Annual Report is also = available, but was largely based on the 2000 report and contains fewer = charts and graphs. Some of us are anxiously awaiting the 2002 Annual = report and the return to timely updates on the PBAC web site, both of = which are on the foreseeable horizon. Dianne French=20 Palouse Water Conservation Network ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C34E26.7A331E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For those wishing to review water = levels in the=20 shallower Wanapum aquifer (no they haven't increased steadily over the = past 42=20 years) and any other facts about our current water supply, may I direct = you to=20 the Palouse Basin Water Committee (PBAC) web site at www.uidaho.edu/pbac  If a = concerned=20 citizen were to open and review the 2000 Annual Report, that = citizen would=20 find a wealth of information including a graph of water levels in the = Wanapum=20 aquifer.  The 2001 Annual Report is also available, but was largely = based=20 on the 2000 report and contains fewer charts and graphs.  Some = of us=20 are anxiously awaiting the 2002 Annual report and the return to timely = updates=20 on the PBAC web site, both of which are on the foreseeable = horizon.
 
Dianne French 
Palouse Water Conservation=20 Network
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C34E26.7A331E00-- From predator75@moscow.com Sun Jul 20 03:31:48 2003 From: predator75@moscow.com (Dan Carscallen) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:31:48 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! References: Message-ID: <000d01c34e67$1250f780$5ff2f5c7@0019522361> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C34E2C.65536E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable These men and women are in the military, right? I'm sorry, but signing = up means you will put your life on the line at time of war. And last I = heard, there's still some shooting going on. I know a lot of people = sign up for the benefits, but the fact is, when it goes from "cold" to = "hot" shots are going to be fired. It sounds cold, but it's the simple = truth.=20 I offer my thanks to all those who have served, whether in battle or = not. You lay your life on the line when you sign on the dotted line. =20 DC ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C34E2C.65536E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
These men and = women are in=20 the military, right?  I'm sorry, but signing up means you will put = your=20 life on the line at time of war.  And last I=20 heard, there's still some shooting going on.  I know a lot of = people sign=20 up for the benefits, but the fact is, when it goes from "cold" to "hot" = shots=20 are going to be fired.  It sounds cold, but it's the simple=20 truth. 
 
I offer my thanks to all those who have served, = whether in=20 battle or not.  You lay your life on the line when you sign on the = dotted=20 line. 
 
DC
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C34E2C.65536E80-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 03:59:48 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:59:48 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] "The Buck Stops Here" Message-ID: It will not be long before Bush plants evidence of WMD's to try and not look stupid. DJA >From: "Tom Hansen" >Reply-To: >To: "Ted Moffett" , >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] "The Buck Stops Here" >Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:34:06 -0700 > >A agree, Mr. Moffett. King George may not have inventing passing the buck, >but he certainly has perfected its science. > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > Behalf Of Ted Moffett > > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 2:22 PM > > To: vision2020@moscow.com > > Cc: ted_moffett@hotmail.com > > Subject: [Vision2020] "The Buck Stops Here" > > > > > > > > All: > > > > The Bush administration has cited the British and the CIA as > > sources for the > > lies he told the nation about Iraq's nuclear weapons program. > > But he claims > > he believed what he said was the truth. > > > > The article that the link below leads to suggests otherwise. > > This article > > suggests that the information that the Niger uranium purchase was > > questionable was known, before Bush gave the speech with the false > > information, by individuals in the US government who should have been > > listened to by Bush. So either the communications in the Bush > > administration are problematic in the extreme on such an > > important issue, or > > Bush and his advisers for the speech had an agenda that they > > wanted to make > > the Iraq uranium purchase assertion to make their case for war more > > powerful, and truth be damned! > > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8777-2003Jul17.html > > ?nav=hptop_tb > > > > President Truman was well known for having a sign on his deck > > that read "The > > buck stops here." > > It appears George W. Bush needs a sign on his desk that reads "Pass the > > buck." > > > > Ted > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dale@courtneys.us Sun Jul 20 04:18:47 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:18:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water In-Reply-To: <002401c34e61$26cd7860$6401a8c0@Dianne> Message-ID: <020b01c34e6d$a251fdb0$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_020C_01C34E32.F5F325B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Diana, Thanks for the link. I'm looking forward to reading the reports and looking at the data. FWIW, that website hasn't been updated since 25 Jan 2002; and the next PBAC meeting scheduled was 18 Apr 2002. I hope that the updated data is better than the updated website. Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of French Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003 18:49 To: vision2020@moscow.com Cc: dale@courtneys.us; london@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water For those wishing to review water levels in the shallower Wanapum aquifer (no they haven't increased steadily over the past 42 years) and any other facts about our current water supply, may I direct you to the Palouse Basin Water Committee (PBAC) web site at www.uidaho.edu/pbac If a concerned citizen were to open and review the 2000 Annual Report, that citizen would find a wealth of information including a graph of water levels in the Wanapum aquifer. The 2001 Annual Report is also available, but was largely based on the 2000 report and contains fewer charts and graphs. Some of us are anxiously awaiting the 2002 Annual report and the return to timely updates on the PBAC web site, both of which are on the foreseeable horizon. Dianne French Palouse Water Conservation Network ------=_NextPart_000_020C_01C34E32.F5F325B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Diana,
 
Thanks=20 for the link. I'm looking forward to reading the reports and looking at = the=20 data.
 
FWIW,=20 that website hasn't been updated since 25 Jan 2002; and the next PBAC = meeting=20 scheduled was 18 Apr 2002. I hope that the updated data is better than = the=20 updated website.
 
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On = Behalf=20 Of French
Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003 = 18:49
To:=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Cc: dale@courtneys.us;=20 london@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse=20 Water

For those wishing to review water = levels in the=20 shallower Wanapum aquifer (no they haven't increased steadily over the = past 42=20 years) and any other facts about our current water supply, may I = direct you to=20 the Palouse Basin Water Committee (PBAC) web site at www.uidaho.edu/pbac  If a = concerned=20 citizen were to open and review the 2000 Annual Report, that = citizen=20 would find a wealth of information including a graph of water levels = in the=20 Wanapum aquifer.  The 2001 Annual Report is also available, but = was=20 largely based on the 2000 report and contains fewer charts and=20 graphs.  Some of us are anxiously awaiting the 2002 Annual report = and the=20 return to timely updates on the PBAC web site, both of which are on = the=20 foreseeable horizon.
 
Dianne French 
Palouse Water Conservation=20 Network
------=_NextPart_000_020C_01C34E32.F5F325B0-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 04:59:45 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:59:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! Message-ID: Don, "You haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about, and >obviously haven't thought through calling a man who wore his country's >uniform for 20 years, and put his life on the line for you and those like >you, such demeaning things." Good for you! your right! I should NOT call the guy that molested my neighbors kids for three years a hypocrite because he served 40 years in the armed forced and was injured in Vietnam. You would like to invite him to your house?? I should not call Oliver North a nonpatriot either despite the fact that he helped fund a drug cartel that gunned down villages. Nor should I call a guy who was injured in a training exercise an expatriot for calling a guy who gets his legs blow off a wimp! You are so shallow to twist my arguments around KAAG. I was not criticizing Mr. Hansen for his service. I was criticizing him for his lack of compassion to the men in uniform. IF YOU BOTHERED TO read my last post you would see that I THANKED HIM FOR IT. I am the one trying to get people to help the troops. And help the families without fathers. Instead you try to TWIST my argument into an attack on Mr. Hansen's service. I have no quarelles with that. AND YOU KNOW THAT YOU ASSHOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would like to meet you in person Mr. Kaag, how damn DARE you accuse me of that. I have spent my whole life supporting the military and their families. And disabled people including veterans. Anybody in this town knows that. Yeah, I will show you how much of a bleeding heart liberal I am! Come over here you sorry, demented excuse for a life! Donovan J Arnold >From: Don Kaag >To: Vision2020 >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! >Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:35:36 -0700 > >Mr. Arnold: > >I take exception to your rude address of Tom Hansen, questioning his >integrity and committment and calling him a hypocrite. Even for an >immature, clueless, bleeding heart like you, that is slimy. > >You haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about, and obviously >haven't thought through calling a man who wore his country's uniform for 20 >years, and put his life on the line for you and those like you, such >demeaning things. > >And stop whining, because the military is not responsible for your personal >angst. Talk about self-centered... now your "service in the military" >consists of being weaned and potty-trained while your father was at sea! >Do you think that you are the only child born while their father was >deployed? Millions of children born during World War II fit that >description, and many thousands since. > >Get a grip. If you feel so strongly about how the military is being >mistreated, try being part of the solution. How about heading on down to >the mall and raising your right hand for a four year tour? > > I didn't think so. > >Until then, shut up. > >Don Kaag > > >On Saturday, July 19, 2003, at 03:12 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote: > >>Well Tom, >> >>Now you know how offended I feel about! Irritating isn't it? I have every >>right to insult a man that insults our troops. I will do it again, and >>again, and again. For someone that says he supports his troops, you ain't >>doing much about it now are you? WAKE UP Mr. Hansen! Are troops are >>getting picked off one by one everyday, they are sitting ducks that can't >>do crap about it. Even the Centcom Commander has stated the troops' needs >>are being ignored by higher members of the military. The only reason you >>spent one year in Vietnam was because people back in the states fought >>against it. They didn't say "Oh what a bunch of pussies." Yet, you having >>been there, and won't even write ONE letter to ONE person to ask that >>their commanders address a few of their concerns. That is called >>hypocritical. I think you should be ashamed. >>As for my service to the military, it was not the same as yours. But it >>was none the less very costly. I never even knew my father until I 12 >>years old. My father was gone all the time until then. I never got to play >>ball with my daddy. He never taught me to ride a bike, or play baseball. >>It was my older brother that took on this role. WHY? Because my dad was >>gone all the time, on tours on ships. Sometimes, I would not see my father >>for 6-8 months at a time. He was not even around when I was born! >>When I see children all across this country suffer the same fate of a mom >>or dad being gone for one-five years at a time, if they return at all, for >>the sake of this stupid unjust war, if makes my blood boil. Their is no >>reason men and women should be away from their spouses and children for >>that long. Some children have both parents over there. BOTH! No parents. >>What kind of crap is that Mr. Hansen? >>If you don't have the courage to say something for the sake of our Troops >>or their families than I question your integrity and commitment to the >>welfare of the American People. If you have, then thanks, don't write back >>implying that you have not and ruffel my feathers. If you don't write, to >>any authority, I have zero respect for you because you are hypocrit to get >>advantages for people protesting here against the unjust war you were in >>BUT will not do the same for others in the same situation. >> >>Donovan J Arnold >> >> >>>From: "Tom Hansen" >>>Reply-To: >>>To: "Donovan Arnold" >>>CC: >>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! >>>Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:32:09 -0700 >>> >>>Mr. Arnold - >>> >>>You stated: >>> >>>"Are you such a man that nothing would cause you to speak out for the >>>other >>>troops in your unit and take the reprimand?" >>> >>>How f***ing dare you even imply that I would not support my troops. >>> >>>I have gone to bat for troops within my squad (and later my platoon) >>>several >>>times. I have gone as far as putting my stripes on the Battalion >>>Commander's desk. That is part of being an NCO. I feel that if my >>>troops >>>do not feel comfortable approaching me with a problem, then I have done >>>something wrong. The foremost characteristic that I have emphasized in >>>training has always been cohesion. Every soldier, from the newest >>>private >>>up to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, should feel more willing >>>to >>>discuss problems with his/her first-line supervisor than taking it up >>>with >>>the media. >>> >>>And what branch of the service were you in, Mr. Arnold. For how long? >>> >>>I am not suggesting that you walk a mile in someon'e shoes before you >>>criticise them. But you should, at minimum know how it feels to wear >>>them. >>> >>>As far as combat tours are concerned, I served a year in Vietnam. I >>>don't >>>care to discuss that part of my life and I certainly will not discuss it >>>here. >>> >>>Tom Hansen >>>SFC, U.S. Army (Retired) >>> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online >>http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 >> >>_____________________________________________________ >>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >>communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ >> > > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 05:19:11 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:19:11 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! Message-ID: Dan, I understand where you are coming from. I tend to think the same thing. Unforuantly, it is not like that in this situation. It is expected that men and women fight for THIS country. And it is expected that they not be recklessly be put in harms way. If we are at war, and it is for a good reason. Yes, they did sign up for it and have to take the good with the bad. But when they are fighting to get rid of fictional WMD's, I think that is the government is abusing the few rights left of our soldiers. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: "Dan Carscallen" >CC: >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! >Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:31:48 -0700 > >These men and women are in the military, right? I'm sorry, but signing up >means you will put your life on the line at time of war. And last I heard, >there's still some shooting going on. I know a lot of people sign up for >the benefits, but the fact is, when it goes from "cold" to "hot" shots are >going to be fired. It sounds cold, but it's the simple truth. > >I offer my thanks to all those who have served, whether in battle or not. >You lay your life on the line when you sign on the dotted line. > >DC _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From thansen@moscow.com Sun Jul 20 05:24:50 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:24:50 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings Visionaires - For a person that says that he has supported our troops his entire life, this is how he supports retired veterans. I feel that I have two options. 1) I can continue this immature babble with a V2020 subscriber that continues to insult my 20 years of service (along with my disability) or 2) I can ignore it and let cooler heads prevail. I am not mad at Mr. Arnold. I pity him. I forgive Mr. Arnold's ignorance. Maybe his venomous comments reflect what he was taught to be right, what he has learned to be appropriate behavior. One other thing that I have learned as a soldier is that sometimes you must turn the other cheek. Although I am extremely tempted to fire back at Mr. Arnold, I feel that by firing back at him I am paying the veterans on the listserve a disservice. By firing back, I am acknowledging that his venomous statements harm me and my fellow veterans. This, to me, is what Mr. Arnold is hoping for. I cannot let statements from an individual who has never warn the uniform insult those who have. As such, I refuse to continue this immature argument and forgive Mr. Arnold. Pro Patria, Tom Hansen SFC, U.S. Army (proudly Retired) From thansen@moscow.com Sun Jul 20 05:31:10 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:31:10 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Enlistment Oath In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When a Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or Marine enlists into the Armed Forces of the United States, he/she takes the following oat. "I, ___________________________________, do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed overme, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." Any failure to obey this sacred oath is a court-martial offense. It is that simple. Pro Patria, Tom Hansen SFC, US Army (Retired) From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Sun Jul 20 00:48:42 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:48:42 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education (again) References: Message-ID: <04f301c34e78$8c5ccd40$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Mr. Moffet > You are not answering the questions posed in this dilemma. If your thinking > is flawed and limited, how can you be certain you understand God's truths > correctly? How hard are the 10 commandments to understand? "Do not covet." "Do not commit adultery." "Do not steal." Hmm, I wonder what those mean? Extremely confusing! You try to claim that truth is some obscure blob, an off-white jello far away from us that we can never truly see. Yet you admitted that you have many doubts about your own beliefs, that you can never claim surety, that all absolutist belief systems are false (yet not the belief that absolutist belief systems are false), and that I cannot be sure without being arrogant, of which you are sure. One self-contradiction after another, it seems. Even though there may be confusing facets to language and logic, there still is truth and falsehood. You seem to think that because some logicians tangle themselves into a knot, it therefore follows that if I use logic, I am in a tangled knot also. But this is clearly false. A scientist can make a mistake in a painstaking calculation, rendering his entire experiment useless, but a child may still add two plus two, and get four. Truth is not the off-white jello on the horizon, but rather an infinite puzzle board; some pieces are placed together for us, giving the general picture; we try to fit the small pieces in, and some have more success than others. And then there are those who refuse to look at the puzzle-board at all. > I think it is clear that there is reasonable doubt about these spiritual > issues, and people of faith believe what they do based on faith. But then > this position of religious belief leads us to the view I am advocating, a > respect for other religions based on a humble realization that the > intentions and thoughts of God may not conform just to one religions > interpretations. And the teacher said, "Children, each of you has his own opinion on these subtraction questions. We're not going to judge you, so each of you gets 100%." The young students cheered madly, and he prided himself on his mathematical humility. After all, 1 + 1 could equal 3. All the best, Luke Nieuwsma From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 06:07:25 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:07:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! Message-ID: Tom, visioneers etc. , I did not intend to attack Mr. Hansen's Service, I intended to attack his position that not helping the troops is patriotic. It is he who attacked my FATHER. A veteran of the US NAVY for 22 years. And a superior of Mr. Hansen. The same thing that he attacks the soldiers for, insubordination. : ) I trust all of you would grow angry, if someone called your father a name. I am close with my family. I said it was unfortunate that Mr. Hansen received a battle injury. I did not make fun of it. For to claim so is shallow. Anyone that knows me knows that me and my family have fought for years in this town to establish services for the disabled. And I have as well at UI. My family established Stepping Stones, and helped with many others updates including buying a house for disabled members of the community. Some of whom are veterans. My grandfather, Leeland G. Connelly pioneered the right of mentally disabled children be given a public education in the state of Idaho. I lose my temper and I apologize. But people are dying overseas, it is for REAL! If Mr.Hansen disagrees fine, don't write a letter. But don't ruffle my feathers by justifying the senseless slaughter of this men when you KNOW I have a bad temper about such things. I asked for people to help the troops, on the bases of a plea from a VETERAN. I think it is UNFAIR for Mr. Hansen to use his disabled and veteran status to say I am attacking him, instead of his argument. He insulted my father, a veteran, he insulted the person that asked me to send this request, who is a veteran. Just because Mr. Hansen is disabled, doesn't mean he can claim that argument and say he right. I Know I don't know what it is like to be in the military. I could not get in because of my kindney problems. I do respect the men and women for their service. That does not mean that I respect every service persons views and positions and actions. That is a stupid argument to say that I have to agree with Mr.Hansen on every issue in politics because if I don't then I don't respect disabled veterans. That is garbage. I sent out a email asking for people to help our troops, Mr. Hansen Attacked me. I responded. Nor do I apologize for anything other than if Mr. Hansen thinks I am attacking his service. I am NOT attacking your service Mr. Hansen, I am attacking your unwillingness to do anything about the problem in Iraq. If that is not Clear, I will say it again, I am not attacking your service Mr. Hansen, I am attacking your views. Got it, good. I think anyone with reasonable intelligence can discern the difference between attacking a disabled person and a veteran,vs. attacking that persons positions on the treatment of soldiers, except Mr. Kaag. Thanks, Donovan J Arnold >From: "Tom Hansen" >Reply-To: >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! >Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:24:50 -0700 > >Greetings Visionaires - > >For a person that says that he has supported our troops his entire life, >this is how he supports retired veterans. > >I feel that I have two options. > >1) I can continue this immature babble with a V2020 subscriber that >continues to insult my 20 years of service (along with my disability) or > >2) I can ignore it and let cooler heads prevail. > >I am not mad at Mr. Arnold. I pity him. I forgive Mr. Arnold's ignorance. >Maybe his venomous comments reflect what he was taught to be right, what he >has learned to be appropriate behavior. > >One other thing that I have learned as a soldier is that sometimes you must >turn the other cheek. Although I am extremely tempted to fire back at Mr. >Arnold, I feel that by firing back at him I am paying the veterans on the >listserve a disservice. By firing back, I am acknowledging that his >venomous statements harm me and my fellow veterans. This, to me, is what >Mr. Arnold is hoping for. I cannot let statements from an individual who >has never warn the uniform insult those who have. As such, I refuse to >continue this immature argument and forgive Mr. Arnold. > >Pro Patria, > >Tom Hansen >SFC, U.S. Army (proudly Retired) > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 06:16:30 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:16:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Death Toll 149 and climbing Message-ID: For what reason are these troops dying? DJA _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 06:19:23 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:19:23 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water Message-ID: Thanks for the info and link Dale. DJA >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Palouse Water >Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:18:47 -0700 > >Diana, > >Thanks for the link. I'm looking forward to reading the reports and looking >at the data. > >FWIW, that website hasn't been updated since 25 Jan 2002; and the next PBAC >meeting scheduled was 18 Apr 2002. I hope that the updated data is better >than the updated website. > >Best, >Dale > >-----Original Message----- >From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On >Behalf Of French >Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003 18:49 >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Cc: dale@courtneys.us; london@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water > > >For those wishing to review water levels in the shallower Wanapum aquifer >(no they haven't increased steadily over the past 42 years) and any other >facts about our current water supply, may I direct you to the Palouse Basin >Water Committee (PBAC) web site at www.uidaho.edu/pbac If a concerned >citizen were to open and review the 2000 Annual Report, that citizen would >find a wealth of information including a graph of water levels in the >Wanapum aquifer. The 2001 Annual Report is also available, but was largely >based on the 2000 report and contains fewer charts and graphs. Some of us >are anxiously awaiting the 2002 Annual report and the return to timely >updates on the PBAC web site, both of which are on the foreseeable horizon. > >Dianne French >Palouse Water Conservation Network > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From DonaldH675@aol.com Sun Jul 20 06:53:52 2003 From: DonaldH675@aol.com (DonaldH675@aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 01:53:52 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Our troops and theirs Message-ID: <1e.15ca1624.2c4b8870@aol.com> --part1_1e.15ca1624.2c4b8870_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Visionaries, It is peculiar to find myself in the role of peacemaker on Vision 20/20 when I am rarely in that position. But, I am very disturbed to see the thread "save a dying soldier" grow more and more acrimonious, especially when I suspect at the heart of the matter we are not very far apart. It is unimaginable to me that Don and Tom, neither of whom could accurately be called shrinking violets, would ever have allowed men and women under their command to be gratuitously abused. Their commitment to serve this country should be honored. It is also fair to say, as Tom has pointed out, that when people enter the military they do take an oath to serve, even if they don't always anticipate the extent of that freely given oath. As a pacifist, I am opposed to all war. I never compromised on that position during my husband's entire Marine Corps service - he was in for the first 15 years of our marriage. I have to say, I never met a Marine who was disrespectful of my position, or indeed seemed eager to go back to a combat situation. But when they were sent, they went, did the best they could for their troops, under conditions often far more severe than those we are currently concerned about. Nonetheless, it is not about the guts and glory. For those concerned about our current troop deployment around the world I urge you to take a strong political position. Do not vote for, and do not support candidates that offer war, or armed intervention as a solution for world problems. For a more immediate, and in my opinion a more constructive approach than insulting former servicemen, I suggest a direct involvement with raising money and supplies for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan. I favor working and raising money for the Friends International Service Committee. < http://www.afsc.org/> They have people on the ground in both countries; they refuse to take sides in the conflict, serving all who come to them and all whom they can reach. Your money and supplies will not be misused. AFSC supplies bedding, clothing, medicine, help with schools and infrastructure needs - and best of all, they know no enemies. Currently in Moscow, my daughter is coordinating a project called "Afghans for Afghanis." Volunteers crochet or knit Afghans, mittens, caps, and other items to be distributed (for free) to Afghan nationals. The "need" for any one to die, American or Iraqi would vanish, if the people felt they were being helped to rebuild their country, not being occupied by an armed force. Everyone, despite cultural or religious differences wants to be able to feed and educate their children, care for their elderly, treat their sick, and have gainful employment. While it may not be a possible to persuade our current political regime of these truths, we can each make a difference in how we respond to this abominable war. Donovan, take some of your youthful energy and organizing ability to your friends and family, and do something positive to help. You'll feel better, and best of all, somewhere 10,000 miles from here you might actually save a life. Best, Rose Huskey --part1_1e.15ca1624.2c4b8870_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Visionaries,
It is peculiar to find myself in the role of peacemaker on Vision 20/20 when= I am rarely in that position.  But, I am very disturbed to see the thr= ead "save a dying soldier" grow more and more acrimonious, especially when I= suspect at the heart of the matter we are not very far apart. It is unimagi= nable to me that Don and Tom, neither of whom could accurately be called shr= inking violets, would ever have allowed men and women under their command to= be gratuitously abused. Their commitment to serve this country should be ho= nored.  It is also fair to say, as Tom has pointed out, that when peopl= e enter the military they do take an oath to serve, even if they don't alway= s anticipate the extent of that freely given oath. 
As a pacifist, I am opposed to all war.  I never compromised on that po= sition during my husband's entire Marine Corps service - he was in for the f= irst 15 years of our marriage. I have to say, I never met a Marine who was d= isrespectful of my position, or indeed seemed eager to go back to a combat s= ituation.  But when they were sent, they went, did the best they could=20= for their troops, under conditions often far more severe than those we are c= urrently concerned about.  Nonetheless, it is not about the guts and gl= ory. 
For those concerned about our current troop deployment around the world I ur= ge you to take a strong political position.  Do not vote for, and do no= t support candidates that offer war, or armed intervention as a solution for= world problems. For a more immediate, and in my opinion a more constructive= approach than insulting former servicemen, I suggest a direct involvement w= ith raising money and supplies for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan. = I favor working and raising money for the Friends International Service Com= mittee. <http://www.afsc.org/> They have people on the ground in both=20= countries; they refuse to take sides in the conflict, serving all who come t= o them and all whom they can reach.  Your money and supplies will not b= e misused.  AFSC supplies bedding, clothing, medicine, help with school= s and infrastructure needs - and best of all, they know no enemies.  Cu= rrently in Moscow, my daughter is coordinating a project called "Afghans for= Afghanis."  Volunteers crochet or knit Afghans, mittens, caps, and oth= er items to be distributed (for free) to Afghan nationals.  The "need"=20= for any one to die, American or Iraqi would vanish, if the people felt they=20= were being helped to rebuild their country, not being occupied by an armed f= orce. 
Everyone, despite cultural or religious differences wants to be able to feed= and educate their children, care for their elderly, treat their sick, and h= ave gainful employment.  While it may not be a possible to persuade our= current political regime of these truths, we can each make a difference in=20= how we respond to this abominable war.  Donovan, take some of your yout= hful energy and organizing ability to your friends and family, and do someth= ing positive to help.  You'll feel better, and best of all, somewhere 1= 0,000 miles from here you might actually save a life.
Best,
Rose Huskey --part1_1e.15ca1624.2c4b8870_boundary-- From ddjames@moscow.com Sun Jul 20 07:15:31 2003 From: ddjames@moscow.com (Deacon James) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:15:31 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! References: Message-ID: <005501c34e86$535cca00$1ef2f5c7@gladiator> Mr. Arnold, As this is a public forum, it would be appreciated if you watched your mouth (or at least your typing fingers). Thanks, Deacon From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 07:21:29 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:21:29 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Our troops and theirs Message-ID: You raise some good points Rose. I agree. I don't think of Mr. Hansen as a cold man. It is just his postion that furstrates me, and I lose my temper. I think the idea of using the email is a good idea. Certainly more productive then me and Tom ripping our throats out. I will use your website address and give that to a few hundred of my contacts on that I am involved with. Many of them should be willing to help. I am not a pacifist as you are. But I hate war, and think it should be a last resort, not a first resort. I really don't want to see more injured vets though. It makes me cry when a friends writes and says they lost another friend :( Thanks Rose! Donovan J Arnold >From: DonaldH675@aol.com >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] Our troops and theirs >Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 01:53:52 EDT > >Dear Visionaries, >It is peculiar to find myself in the role of peacemaker on Vision 20/20 >when >I am rarely in that position. But, I am very disturbed to see the thread >"save a dying soldier" grow more and more acrimonious, especially when I >suspect >at the heart of the matter we are not very far apart. It is unimaginable to >me >that Don and Tom, neither of whom could accurately be called shrinking >violets, would ever have allowed men and women under their command to be >gratuitously >abused. Their commitment to serve this country should be honored. It is >also >fair to say, as Tom has pointed out, that when people enter the military >they >do take an oath to serve, even if they don't always anticipate the extent >of >that freely given oath. >As a pacifist, I am opposed to all war. I never compromised on that >position >during my husband's entire Marine Corps service - he was in for the first >15 >years of our marriage. I have to say, I never met a Marine who was >disrespectful of my position, or indeed seemed eager to go back to a combat >situation. >But when they were sent, they went, did the best they could for their >troops, >under conditions often far more severe than those we are currently >concerned >about. Nonetheless, it is not about the guts and glory. >For those concerned about our current troop deployment around the world I >urge you to take a strong political position. Do not vote for, and do not >support candidates that offer war, or armed intervention as a solution for >world >problems. For a more immediate, and in my opinion a more constructive >approach >than insulting former servicemen, I suggest a direct involvement with >raising >money and supplies for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan. I favor working >and >raising money for the Friends International Service Committee. < >http://www.afsc.org/> They have people on the ground in both countries; >they refuse to take >sides in the conflict, serving all who come to them and all whom they can >reach. Your money and supplies will not be misused. AFSC supplies >bedding, >clothing, medicine, help with schools and infrastructure needs - and best >of all, >they know no enemies. Currently in Moscow, my daughter is coordinating a >project called "Afghans for Afghanis." Volunteers crochet or knit Afghans, >mittens, caps, and other items to be distributed (for free) to Afghan >nationals. The >"need" for any one to die, American or Iraqi would vanish, if the people >felt >they were being helped to rebuild their country, not being occupied by an >armed force. >Everyone, despite cultural or religious differences wants to be able to >feed >and educate their children, care for their elderly, treat their sick, and >have >gainful employment. While it may not be a possible to persuade our current >political regime of these truths, we can each make a difference in how we >respond to this abominable war. Donovan, take some of your youthful energy >and >organizing ability to your friends and family, and do something positive to >help. > You'll feel better, and best of all, somewhere 10,000 miles from here you >might actually save a life. >Best, >Rose Huskey _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 07:26:22 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:26:22 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! Message-ID: OOPPS! Sorry Decon and group. You are right. I lost my temper. I should not have sent that to the entire group. Forget to check that. Thanks Deacon, Donovan J Arnold >From: "Deacon James" >To: , "Donovan Arnold" >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! >Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:15:31 -0700 > >Mr. Arnold, > >As this is a public forum, it would be appreciated if you watched your >mouth >(or at least your typing fingers). > >Thanks, >Deacon > _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 08:10:10 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:10:10 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: Ted wrote: > > You are not answering the questions posed in this dilemma. If your >thinking > > is flawed and limited, how can you be certain you understand God's >truths > > correctly? > Luke answered: > How hard are the 10 commandments to understand? "Do not covet." >"Do not commit adultery." "Do not steal." Hmm, I wonder what those mean? >Extremely confusing! > Ted answers: Do you support the death penalty? The commandment "Thou shall not kill" is taken seriously by some Christians, including the Catholic Church (I can supply the papal decree that verifies the Biblical reasoning involved in this decision), to indicate that the death penalty almost always is against the will of God. Yet many fundamentalist Christians insist that the commandment against killing is really only meant for those cold blooded murderers who kill senselessly, it is a commandment against "murder," but if you kill to punish or gain righteous compensation for a hideous crime (let's forget for a moment that flawed and limited human mind which has sent many to death row, death row inmates who were later released from prison by the dozens after they were shown to be innocent), you have God's blessing. You will dodge this very real and controversial division within Christianity about the death penalty, which demonstrates with startling clarity the relativistic and flawed interpretations of the Bible which Christian's argue over: both interpretations cannot be right, can they? So there are millions of Christians who are wrongly interpreting the Bible on the issue, either the whole Catholic Church, or other groups of Christians who number in the millions who believe staunchly in the death penalty. Obviously it is rather easy to find a commandment out of the Ten that does lead to confusion and contentious complex arguments that lead millions of Christians to disagree with each other. And considering that millions of Christians must be wrong about this issue, those Christians who have chosen the wrong side, we can conclude this must be that flawed and limited human mind at work. Your dismissal of my point that God's laws can be difficult for a flawed limited human mind to comprehend failed! Again, you did not really answer the question posed by this dilemma! Luke wrote: > You try to claim that truth is some obscure blob, an off-white jello >far >away from us that we can never truly see. Yet you admitted that you have >many doubts about your own beliefs, that you can never claim surety, that >all absolutist belief systems are false (yet not the belief that absolutist >belief systems are false), and that I cannot be sure without being >arrogant, >of which you are sure. One self-contradiction after another, it seems. Ted answers: You misstate what I have been saying, showing you are not reading what I wrote. I will break this down into several different statements to attempt to not fall into self referential traps of logic. Some statements I do believe are certain: All men are mortal: Socrates is a man: Therefore Socrates is mortal: Logical certainty. The earth is approximately spherical in shape, not flat: Empirical certainty Some statements I believe involve great uncertainly: Some absolutist belief systems about God and the whole universe may be true in whole. The evidence is lacking to PROVE any of these belief systems to be wholly true, for many reasons. Logical and empirical uncertainty. There is intelligent life elsewhere off earth in our galaxy. Maybe it is probable, but still: Empirical uncertainty So I do think some beliefs are certain, and I do not believe it is certain that all absolutist belief systems are false, so you are wrong on both those points. Any arrogance I stated you possess is based on expressing certainly in denying the possible truth in other belief systems about religion than your own. If you are certain that 1+1=2 I will not call this arrogance. When you imply there are no moral complications in the Ten Commandments that the limited and flawed human mind may have difficulty solving, yes, you are being arrogant. See my points above on the death penalty and the commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill." Luke wrote: > Even though there may be confusing facets to language and logic, there >still is truth and falsehood. You seem to think that because some logicians >tangle themselves into a knot, it therefore follows that if I use logic, I >am in a tangled knot also. Ted anwers: Luke, it is you who were using the traps of self referential logical statements to try to tie me up into knots! I was merely trying to shed some light on these sorts of contradictions that I stated were difficult for anyone to avoid when dealing with complex belief systems. I am saying, however, that you have the same limitations of the flawed and limited human mind that we all have, so yes, you will likely find yourself stuck in contradictions in your belief system if you investigate it fully. Luke wrote: >But this is clearly false. A scientist can make a >mistake in a painstaking calculation, rendering his entire experiment >useless, but a child may still add two plus two, and get four. > Truth is not the off-white jello on the horizon, but rather an >infinite >puzzle board; some pieces are placed together for us, giving the general >picture; we try to fit the small pieces in, and some have more success than >others. And then there are those who refuse to look at the puzzle-board at >all. > Ted answers: Gee, I am at a loss. This last segment I find myself in agreement with. Ted wrote: > > I think it is clear that there is reasonable doubt about these spiritual > > issues, and people of faith believe what they do based on faith. But >then > > this position of religious belief leads us to the view I am advocating, >a > > respect for other religions based on a humble realization that the > > intentions and thoughts of God may not conform just to one religions > > interpretations. > Luke answered: >And the teacher said, "Children, each of you has his own opinion on these >subtraction questions. We're not going to judge you, so each of you gets >100%." The young students cheered madly, and he prided himself on his >mathematical humility. After all, 1 + 1 could equal 3. > Ted answers: Luke, what is the point of this little story? We are not debating simple addition here, Luke. We are discussing the most difficult and complex questions of spirituality and morality and truth. I suppose you are attacking some sort of silly relativism you imply I endorse that you see as ridiculous. But the debate in Christianity about the death penalty, for example, is not silly or ridiculous. Shall I write a mocking little story about Christians arguing over the death penalty, which they do most definitely, exposing the conflicts and doubt within Christianity over a critical moral issue?! To say the commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill" allows for the moral application of the death penalty is to many Christians like saying 1+1=3. Ted _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dale@courtneys.us Sun Jul 20 16:43:01 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 08:43:01 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water In-Reply-To: <002401c34e61$26cd7860$6401a8c0@Dianne> Message-ID: <021801c34ed5$9a7a9030$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0219_01C34E9A.EE1EC570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dianne, Thanks again for the link to the report. For those who would like to find the 2000 annual report directly without reading thru the entire site, it's at http://www.webs.uidaho.edu/pbac/pubs/00report.pdf. The page of interest is page 15. FWIW, the upper (Wanapum) aquifer (as per measurements from Well #2) is at the exact same level as it was in 1977. It has had some significant increases and decreases, but overall the level is what it was at 26 years ago. It would be interesting to see what the data for 2000-2003 would show for Well #2. >From page 14 of the same report, there can be little doubt that the Grande Ronde aquifer has been falling 1-1.5 feet per year. No one disputes that. My question remains, however -- if the overall amount of water available to us is relatively constant, then the draconian measures that the MCA is calling for are unnecessary. Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of French Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003 18:49 To: vision2020@moscow.com Cc: dale@courtneys.us; london@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water For those wishing to review water levels in the shallower Wanapum aquifer (no they haven't increased steadily over the past 42 years) and any other facts about our current water supply, may I direct you to the Palouse Basin Water Committee (PBAC) web site at www.uidaho.edu/pbac If a concerned citizen were to open and review the 2000 Annual Report, that citizen would find a wealth of information including a graph of water levels in the Wanapum aquifer. The 2001 Annual Report is also available, but was largely based on the 2000 report and contains fewer charts and graphs. Some of us are anxiously awaiting the 2002 Annual report and the return to timely updates on the PBAC web site, both of which are on the foreseeable horizon. Dianne French Palouse Water Conservation Network ------=_NextPart_000_0219_01C34E9A.EE1EC570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Dianne,
 
Thanks=20 again for the link to the report.
 
For=20 those who would like to find the 2000 annual report directly without = reading=20 thru the entire site, it's at http://www.web= s.uidaho.edu/pbac/pubs/00report.pdf.=20
 
The=20 page of interest is page 15. FWIW, the upper (Wanapum) aquifer = (as per=20 measurements from Well #2) is at the exact same level as it was = in 1977.=20 It has had some significant increases and decreases, but overall the = level is=20 what it was at 26 years ago. It would be interesting to see what the = data for=20 2000-2003 would show for Well #2.
 
From=20 page 14 of the same report, there can be little doubt that the Grande = Ronde=20 aquifer has been falling 1-1.5 feet per year. No one disputes that.=20
 
My=20 question remains, however -- if the overall amount of water available to = us is=20 relatively constant, then the draconian measures that the MCA is calling = for are=20 unnecessary.
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On = Behalf=20 Of French
Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003 = 18:49
To:=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Cc: dale@courtneys.us;=20 london@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse=20 Water

For those wishing to review water = levels in the=20 shallower Wanapum aquifer (no they haven't increased steadily over the = past 42=20 years) and any other facts about our current water supply, may I = direct you to=20 the Palouse Basin Water Committee (PBAC) web site at www.uidaho.edu/pbac  If a = concerned=20 citizen were to open and review the 2000 Annual Report, that = citizen=20 would find a wealth of information including a graph of water levels = in the=20 Wanapum aquifer.  The 2001 Annual Report is also available, but = was=20 largely based on the 2000 report and contains fewer charts and=20 graphs.  Some of us are anxiously awaiting the 2002 Annual report = and the=20 return to timely updates on the PBAC web site, both of which are on = the=20 foreseeable horizon.
 
Dianne French 
Palouse Water Conservation=20 Network
------=_NextPart_000_0219_01C34E9A.EE1EC570-- From escape@alt-escape.com Sun Jul 20 20:10:50 2003 From: escape@alt-escape.com (Bob Hoffmann) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:10:50 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water In-Reply-To: <021801c34ed5$9a7a9030$ca01a8c0@home> References: <002401c34e61$26cd7860$6401a8c0@Dianne> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030720120916.02ce0ac0@mail.turbonet.com> At 08:43 AM 7/20/2003 -0700, Dale Courtney wrote: >My question remains, however -- if the overall amount of water available >to us is relatively constant, then the draconian measures that the MCA is >calling for are unnecessary. I understand that what MCA is calling for is that the city of Moscow follow state law, and not mine the aquifer. Perhaps Dale thinks the law is Draconian. I that case, I suggest you take it up with Boise. Have the law repealed, and you take away a main MCA argument. Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 From dale@courtneys.us Sun Jul 20 20:55:45 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:55:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030720120916.02ce0ac0@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: <022201c34ef8$e8ec92e0$ca01a8c0@home> > I understand that what MCA is calling for is that the city of > Moscow follow > state law, and not mine the aquifer. Perhaps Dale thinks the law is > Draconian. I that case, I suggest you take it up with Boise. > Have the law > repealed, and you take away a main MCA argument. Bob, Can you please point me to that state law? I'd like to read it for myself. Thanks. Best, Dale From leoames@moscow.com Sun Jul 20 21:18:05 2003 From: leoames@moscow.com (Leo Ames) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:18:05 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: more on upper (Wanapum) aquifer of yore In-Reply-To: <20030720190002.65647.90095.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: Dianne and Dale et al, A note from history - Regarding the upper (Wanapum) aquifer serving Moscow: If that is the same upper aquifer from which Moscow and the UI drew water 50 years ago, we may not wish to go back to depending only or primarily on it. Some of us who came to the university in those years (and before) remember it being the worst water SEEN. It turned buildings golden from the ground to about 3-5 feet where sprinklers reached; bathing in a bathtub was like a bath in weak orange juice; kids who spent their first summers in Moscow's public swimming pool didn't realize until older that it wasn't natural not to be able to see the bottom of the SHALLOW end of the pool. All the white clothing took on a warm, golden glow. The "word out there" was the water was loaded with iron, perhaps other things. Hydrologists can explain better the reasons why we don't use the upper (Wanapum) aquifer more today. Leo Ames, Moscow > 1. RE: Palouse Water (Dale Courtney) > From: "Dale Courtney" > To: > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Palouse Water > Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 08:43:01 -0700 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0219_01C34E9A.EE1EC570 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Dianne, > > Thanks again for the link to the report. > > For those who would like to find the 2000 annual report directly without > reading thru the entire site, it's at > http://www.webs.uidaho.edu/pbac/pubs/00report.pdf. > > The page of interest is page 15. FWIW, the upper (Wanapum) aquifer (as per > measurements from Well #2) is at the exact same level as it was in 1977. It > has had some significant increases and decreases, but overall the level is > what it was at 26 years ago. It would be interesting to see what the data > for 2000-2003 would show for Well #2. > >> From page 14 of the same report, there can be little doubt that the Grande > Ronde aquifer has been falling 1-1.5 feet per year. No one disputes that. > > My question remains, however -- if the overall amount of water available to > us is relatively constant, then the draconian measures that the MCA is > calling for are unnecessary. > Best, > Dale > > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On > Behalf Of French > Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003 18:49 > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Cc: dale@courtneys.us; london@moscow.com > Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water From matt2107@moscow.com Sun Jul 20 22:05:40 2003 From: matt2107@moscow.com (matt decker) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:05:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! References: Message-ID: <006f01c34f02$ae00c200$a0f2f5c7@jared> Mr Arnold, Although I don't agree with you and others at times, I would suggest that when talking to others, you would do so with some respect. You have attacked Mr Hansen and Mr. Kaag, who are both prior veterens of Vietnam, all becuase you don't agree with them. Also, this is a community site, so by saying that you would like to meet Mr. Kaag face to face, I took that as wanting to fight. This makes you look like the idiot that YOU are. Quite frankly, trying to start a fight with an ex-MARINE sniper and black belt shows the dumba** that you are. STOP THE ATTACKS ARNOLD!! Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donovan Arnold" To: ; Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 8:59 PM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! > Don, > > "You haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about, and > >obviously haven't thought through calling a man who wore his country's > >uniform for 20 years, and put his life on the line for you and those like > >you, such demeaning things." > > Good for you! your right! I should NOT call the guy that molested my > neighbors kids for three years a hypocrite because he served 40 years in the > armed forced and was injured in Vietnam. You would like to invite him to > your house?? > > I should not call Oliver North a nonpatriot either despite the fact that he > helped fund a drug cartel that gunned down villages. > > Nor should I call a guy who was injured in a training exercise an expatriot > for calling a guy who gets his legs blow off a wimp! > > You are so shallow to twist my arguments around KAAG. I was not criticizing > Mr. Hansen for his service. I was criticizing him for his lack of compassion > to the men in uniform. IF YOU BOTHERED TO read my last post you would see > that I THANKED HIM FOR IT. > > I am the one trying to get people to help the troops. And help the families > without fathers. > > Instead you try to TWIST my argument into an attack on Mr. Hansen's service. > I have no quarelles with that. AND YOU KNOW THAT YOU > ASSHOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > I would like to meet you in person Mr. Kaag, how damn DARE you accuse me of > that. I have spent my whole life supporting the military and their families. > And disabled people including veterans. Anybody in this town knows that. > Yeah, I will show you how much of a bleeding heart liberal I am! Come over > here you sorry, demented excuse for a life! > > Donovan J Arnold > > >From: Don Kaag > >To: Vision2020 > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! > >Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:35:36 -0700 > > > >Mr. Arnold: > > > >I take exception to your rude address of Tom Hansen, questioning his > >integrity and committment and calling him a hypocrite. Even for an > >immature, clueless, bleeding heart like you, that is slimy. > > > >You haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about, and obviously > >haven't thought through calling a man who wore his country's uniform for 20 > >years, and put his life on the line for you and those like you, such > >demeaning things. > > > >And stop whining, because the military is not responsible for your personal > >angst. Talk about self-centered... now your "service in the military" > >consists of being weaned and potty-trained while your father was at sea! > >Do you think that you are the only child born while their father was > >deployed? Millions of children born during World War II fit that > >description, and many thousands since. > > > >Get a grip. If you feel so strongly about how the military is being > >mistreated, try being part of the solution. How about heading on down to > >the mall and raising your right hand for a four year tour? > > > > I didn't think so. > > > >Until then, shut up. > > > >Don Kaag > > > > > >On Saturday, July 19, 2003, at 03:12 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote: > > > >>Well Tom, > >> > >>Now you know how offended I feel about! Irritating isn't it? I have every > >>right to insult a man that insults our troops. I will do it again, and > >>again, and again. For someone that says he supports his troops, you ain't > >>doing much about it now are you? WAKE UP Mr. Hansen! Are troops are > >>getting picked off one by one everyday, they are sitting ducks that can't > >>do crap about it. Even the Centcom Commander has stated the troops' needs > >>are being ignored by higher members of the military. The only reason you > >>spent one year in Vietnam was because people back in the states fought > >>against it. They didn't say "Oh what a bunch of pussies." Yet, you having > >>been there, and won't even write ONE letter to ONE person to ask that > >>their commanders address a few of their concerns. That is called > >>hypocritical. I think you should be ashamed. > >>As for my service to the military, it was not the same as yours. But it > >>was none the less very costly. I never even knew my father until I 12 > >>years old. My father was gone all the time until then. I never got to play > >>ball with my daddy. He never taught me to ride a bike, or play baseball. > >>It was my older brother that took on this role. WHY? Because my dad was > >>gone all the time, on tours on ships. Sometimes, I would not see my father > >>for 6-8 months at a time. He was not even around when I was born! > >>When I see children all across this country suffer the same fate of a mom > >>or dad being gone for one-five years at a time, if they return at all, for > >>the sake of this stupid unjust war, if makes my blood boil. Their is no > >>reason men and women should be away from their spouses and children for > >>that long. Some children have both parents over there. BOTH! No parents. > >>What kind of crap is that Mr. Hansen? > >>If you don't have the courage to say something for the sake of our Troops > >>or their families than I question your integrity and commitment to the > >>welfare of the American People. If you have, then thanks, don't write back > >>implying that you have not and ruffel my feathers. If you don't write, to > >>any authority, I have zero respect for you because you are hypocrit to get > >>advantages for people protesting here against the unjust war you were in > >>BUT will not do the same for others in the same situation. > >> > >>Donovan J Arnold > >> > >> > >>>From: "Tom Hansen" > >>>Reply-To: > >>>To: "Donovan Arnold" > >>>CC: > >>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! > >>>Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:32:09 -0700 > >>> > >>>Mr. Arnold - > >>> > >>>You stated: > >>> > >>>"Are you such a man that nothing would cause you to speak out for the > >>>other > >>>troops in your unit and take the reprimand?" > >>> > >>>How f***ing dare you even imply that I would not support my troops. > >>> > >>>I have gone to bat for troops within my squad (and later my platoon) > >>>several > >>>times. I have gone as far as putting my stripes on the Battalion > >>>Commander's desk. That is part of being an NCO. I feel that if my > >>>troops > >>>do not feel comfortable approaching me with a problem, then I have done > >>>something wrong. The foremost characteristic that I have emphasized in > >>>training has always been cohesion. Every soldier, from the newest > >>>private > >>>up to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, should feel more willing > >>>to > >>>discuss problems with his/her first-line supervisor than taking it up > >>>with > >>>the media. > >>> > >>>And what branch of the service were you in, Mr. Arnold. For how long? > >>> > >>>I am not suggesting that you walk a mile in someon'e shoes before you > >>>criticise them. But you should, at minimum know how it feels to wear > >>>them. > >>> > >>>As far as combat tours are concerned, I served a year in Vietnam. I > >>>don't > >>>care to discuss that part of my life and I certainly will not discuss it > >>>here. > >>> > >>>Tom Hansen > >>>SFC, U.S. Army (Retired) > >>> > >> > >>_________________________________________________________________ > >>Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > >>http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > >> > >>_____________________________________________________ > >>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the > >>communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >> > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the > >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From london@moscow.com Sun Jul 20 23:50:40 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:50:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] letter to the editor Message-ID: <3F1B1CC0.84BA7896@moscow.com> During the Moscow Farmers' Market on Saturday, I found and used the restroom in the student lounge at the New St. Andrews College building (the former GTE building). My thanks to the college for providing this very needed public service. I hope that providing this public restroom is a step to bridging the gap between the greater Moscow community and New St. Andrews College and the political/social organization it represents. There is plenty of distrust, concern, and uncertainty in Moscow regarding the plans and impact of this growing organization and its ongoing purchase of downtown property. When educational and religious organizations purchase property and remove that property from the tax rolls, the other taxpayers have to pay more to maintain governmental services. In exchange, those educational and religious organizations are assumed to be doing good works that benefit the community. I hope this is the beginning of efforts to enrich our community and that the distrust melts into dialog. Bill London From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jul 21 02:43:49 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:43:49 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: more on upper (Wanapum) aquifer of yore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <022901c34f29$88b76680$ca01a8c0@home> Leo writes: > A note from history - Regarding the upper (Wanapum) aquifer > serving Moscow: If that is the same upper aquifer from which > Moscow and the UI drew water 50 years ago, we may not wish to > go back to depending only or primarily on it. Some of us who > came to the university in those years (and before) remember > it being the worst water SEEN. It turned buildings golden > from the ground to about 3-5 feet where sprinklers reached; > bathing in a bathtub was like a bath in weak orange juice; > kids who spent their first summers in Moscow's public > swimming pool didn't realize until older that it wasn't > natural not to be able to see the bottom of the SHALLOW end > of the pool. All the white clothing took on a warm, golden glow. Leo, not all communities in the USA have the luxury of the quality of water that Moscow has in the *lower* aquifer. Growing up in Florida, we had so much lime in the water that scum would form on the horse watering troughs. The private well user didn't have the facilities to get rid of all the lime, iron, etc. However, the city residents *did* use that same aquifer and was able to process that water into normal usage. I'm not questioning that the lower aquifer is better "straight out of the ground" for household purposes. I am questioning that the water from the upper aquifer is unusable and is discounted from the conversation. Best, Dale From jeanlivingston@turbonet.com Mon Jul 21 05:07:24 2003 From: jeanlivingston@turbonet.com (Bruce and Jean Livingston) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:07:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water References: <021801c34ed5$9a7a9030$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: <004c01c34f3d$981813e0$c870e4ce@momanddad> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C34F02.EAF37AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageDale said: "if the overall amount of water available to us is = relatively constant, then the draconian measures that the MCA is calling = for are unnecessary." This statement suffers from several obvious flaws = that are not typical of Dale's usual arguments. =20 First, it grossly exaggerates the "draconian" measures being requested = by numerous groups, not only the Moscow Civic Association, when in fact, = all that is being requested is that the City of Moscow live up to its = prior agreement about reasonably limiting its water usage along with the = other governmental entities and citizens of the Palouse, those who use = the water at both universities and in Moscow and Pullman. The Moscow = Civic Association and various interested parties who live here on the = Palouse requested that the City stick to its prior agreement and limit = pumping from the aquifer to previously agreed amounts (that included = INCREASES over time, as I understand it). We are asking people to = conserve water as a precious scarce resource while we study and try to = understand the extent of the water resource that we are undeniably = MINING. The "draconian" measures that were being advocated by various = groups were to seek voluntary cooperation by the City -- to live up to = its prior commitments, rather than enforce state law and bring in state = agencies to monitor and possibly control water usage. What was asked by = the citizens concerned about Palouse water was that the City stop = wasting water and encourage conservation of an undeniably scarce = resource. That leads me to my second beef with Dale's recent posting. He is a = bright man and not one to argue from a false premise. He knows better = than that, but his latest post, despite the opportunity to review the = PBAC site, still suffers from the same flaw as his original question. Dale, you state that "the overall amount of water available to us is = relatively constant," when the water site that you checked (and rely = upon in your post) clearly indicates otherwise. The upper aquifer, = aside from its issues regarding poor quality water (i.e., minerals, = pesticides and hebicides), is not offsetting the losses from the deep, = purer, cleaner aquifer water. You acknowledge that PBAC data shows the = upper aquifer is the same as it was in 1977. The same. The lower = aquifer is dropping 1-2 feet per year. Thus, the "overall amount of = water available to us" (not to mention water of high quality) is NOT = constant. It is dropping 1-2 feet per year. =20 Study of the available water sources and conservation efforts during the = study period is a reasonable and prudent effort. I applaud your = conservation efforts, Dale. I encourage all Palouse residnets to do the = same while we study the water situation and attempt to stem the loss of = a precious resource whose quantity is unknown. =20 Bruce Livingston ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dale Courtney=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 8:43 AM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Palouse Water Dianne, Thanks again for the link to the report.=20 For those who would like to find the 2000 annual report directly = without reading thru the entire site, it's at = http://www.webs.uidaho.edu/pbac/pubs/00report.pdf.=20 The page of interest is page 15. FWIW, the upper (Wanapum) aquifer (as = per measurements from Well #2) is at the exact same level as it was in = 1977. It has had some significant increases and decreases, but overall = the level is what it was at 26 years ago. It would be interesting to see = what the data for 2000-2003 would show for Well #2.=20 From page 14 of the same report, there can be little doubt that the = Grande Ronde aquifer has been falling 1-1.5 feet per year. No one = disputes that.=20 My question remains, however -- if the overall amount of water = available to us is relatively constant, then the draconian measures that = the MCA is calling for are unnecessary.=20 Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com = [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of French Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003 18:49 To: vision2020@moscow.com Cc: dale@courtneys.us; london@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water For those wishing to review water levels in the shallower Wanapum = aquifer (no they haven't increased steadily over the past 42 years) and = any other facts about our current water supply, may I direct you to the = Palouse Basin Water Committee (PBAC) web site at www.uidaho.edu/pbac If = a concerned citizen were to open and review the 2000 Annual Report, that = citizen would find a wealth of information including a graph of water = levels in the Wanapum aquifer. The 2001 Annual Report is also = available, but was largely based on the 2000 report and contains fewer = charts and graphs. Some of us are anxiously awaiting the 2002 Annual = report and the return to timely updates on the PBAC web site, both of = which are on the foreseeable horizon. Dianne French=20 Palouse Water Conservation Network ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C34F02.EAF37AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Dale said:  "if = the overall=20 amount of water available to us is relatively constant, then the = draconian=20 measures that the MCA is calling for are unnecessary."  This = statement=20 suffers from several obvious flaws that are not typical = of Dale's=20 usual arguments. 
 
First, it grossly exaggerates the = "draconian"=20 measures being requested by numerous groups, not only the Moscow Civic=20 Association, when in fact, all that is being requested is that = the=20 City of Moscow live up to its prior agreement about=20 reasonably limiting its water usage along with the other = governmental=20 entities and citizens of the Palouse, those who use the water at both=20 universities and in Moscow and Pullman.  The Moscow Civic = Association and=20 various interested parties who live here on the Palouse requested that = the City=20 stick to its prior agreement and limit pumping from the aquifer to = previously=20 agreed amounts (that included INCREASES over time, as I understand=20 it).  We are asking people to conserve water as a precious scarce = resource=20 while we study and try to understand the extent of the water resource = that we=20 are undeniably MINING.  The "draconian" measures that were being = advocated=20 by various groups were to seek voluntary cooperation by the City -- to = live up=20 to its prior commitments, rather than enforce state law and bring = in state=20 agencies to monitor and possibly control water usage.  What = was asked=20 by the citizens concerned about Palouse water was that the City stop = wasting=20 water and encourage conservation of an undeniably scarce=20 resource.
 
That leads me to my second beef with = Dale's recent=20 posting.  He is a bright man and not one to argue from a false = premise.  He knows better than that, but his latest post, despite = the=20 opportunity to review the PBAC site, still suffers from the same flaw as = his=20 original question.
 
Dale, you state that "the overall amount of water available to us is = relatively=20 constant," when = the water site=20 that you checked (and rely upon in your post) clearly indicates = otherwise. =20 The upper aquifer, aside from its issues regarding poor quality water = (i.e.,=20 minerals, pesticides and hebicides), is not offsetting the losses from = the deep,=20 purer, cleaner aquifer water.  You acknowledge that PBAC data = shows=20 the upper aquifer is the same as it was in 1977.  The same.  = The lower=20 aquifer is dropping 1-2 feet per year.  Thus, the "overall amount = of water=20 available to us" (not to mention water of high quality) is NOT=20 constant.  It is dropping 1-2 feet per year. =20
 
Study of the available water sources and = conservation=20 efforts during the study period is a reasonable and prudent = effort.  I=20 applaud your conservation efforts, Dale.  I encourage all Palouse = residnets=20 to do the same while we study the water situation and attempt to stem = the loss=20 of a precious resource whose quantity is unknown. =20
 
Bruce Livingston
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dale = Courtney=20
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 = 8:43 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] = Palouse=20 Water

Dianne,
 
Thanks again for the link to the report.
 
For=20 those who would like to find the 2000 annual report directly without = reading=20 thru the entire site, it's at http://www.web= s.uidaho.edu/pbac/pubs/00report.pdf.=20
 
The=20 page of interest is page 15. FWIW, the upper=20 (Wanapum) aquifer (as per measurements from Well #2) is at the = exact=20 same level as it was in 1977. It has had some significant increases = and=20 decreases, but overall the level is what it was at 26 years ago. It = would be=20 interesting to see what the data for 2000-2003 would show for Well #2. =
 
From=20 page 14 of the same report, there can be little doubt that the Grande = Ronde=20 aquifer has been falling 1-1.5 feet per year. No one disputes that.=20
 
My=20 question remains, however -- if the overall amount of water available = to us is=20 relatively constant, then the draconian measures that the MCA is = calling for=20 are unnecessary.
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On=20 Behalf Of French
Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003=20 18:49
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Cc: = dale@courtneys.us;=20 london@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse=20 Water

For those wishing to review water = levels in the=20 shallower Wanapum aquifer (no they haven't increased steadily over = the past=20 42 years) and any other facts about our current water supply, may I = direct=20 you to the Palouse Basin Water Committee (PBAC) web site at www.uidaho.edu/pbac  If = a=20 concerned citizen were to open and review the 2000 Annual = Report, that=20 citizen would find a wealth of information including a graph of = water levels=20 in the Wanapum aquifer.  The 2001 Annual Report is also = available, but=20 was largely based on the 2000 report and contains fewer charts = and=20 graphs.  Some of us are anxiously awaiting the 2002 Annual = report and=20 the return to timely updates on the PBAC web site, both of which are = on the=20 foreseeable horizon.
 
Dianne French 
Palouse Water Conservation=20 Network
------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C34F02.EAF37AE0-- From cape@moscow.com Mon Jul 21 05:11:51 2003 From: cape@moscow.com (Brent Capener) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:11:51 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] RE: Cynical and Orchestrated Message-ID: <000801c34f3e$370d96f0$83f2f5c7@biff> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C34F03.8A189970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes! I've been waiting for them (the GW gang) to say it, what took them = so long ?! IT'S ALL CLINTON'S FAULT! BC -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 All: "Never before in my 40 years of experience in this town has intelligence = been used in so cynical and so orchestrated a way" --Raymond McGovern,=20 former CIA analyst. Link to CBS news report quoting former CIA investigator Raymond = McGovern: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/25/iraq/main560449.shtml Ted ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C34F03.8A189970 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes!  I've been waiting for them = (the GW gang)=20 to say it, what took them so long ?!   IT'S ALL CLINTON'S=20 FAULT!
 
BC
 
 
All:

"Never before in my 40 years of experience in this town has intelligence =

been used in so cynical and so orchestrated a way"  --Raymond McGovern,=20
former CIA analyst.

Link to CBS news report quoting former CIA investigator Raymond =
McGovern:

=
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/25/iraq/main560449.shtml

Ted
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C34F03.8A189970-- From cape@moscow.com Mon Jul 21 05:31:45 2003 From: cape@moscow.com (Brent Capener) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:31:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] RE: Re: Cynical..... Message-ID: <001401c34f40$fecc50d0$83f2f5c7@biff> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C34F06.51F3DC00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Whoops, by including the quote by R. McGovern my sarcasm is confusing. = It is within the article accessed through the link that the "buck gets = passed on" to Clinton BC ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C34F06.51F3DC00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Whoops, by including the quote by R. = McGovern my=20 sarcasm is confusing.  It is within the article accessed through = the link=20 that the "buck gets passed on" to Clinton
 
BC
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C34F06.51F3DC00-- From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jul 21 05:48:44 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:48:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water In-Reply-To: <004c01c34f3d$981813e0$c870e4ce@momanddad> Message-ID: <023401c34f43$5e93bf10$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0235_01C34F08.B234E710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bruce, =20 I appreciate the tenor of your post as well as your challenges.=20 =20 First, I would really like to see the list of agreements that Moscow = made with the State; and what the agreed amounts (and increases) are. Can = someone please point me to those? That's not been presented so far, and I've = asked; everything has been nebulous. =20 Second, I would like to know where Prof. Elsa Kirsten Peters got her = data about the upper aquifer. Clearly, an instructor at geology at WSU should know what data she is talking about. She points out that "The water = levels near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That statement, however, does not imply that the water levels farther away = are dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run out" = of water in the lower aquifer." I would appreciate hearing a response from = a geologist concerning her sentiments in the editorial from 17 July. =20 Finally, my general wariness comes from knee-jerk reactions as opposed = to well thought out and meticulously planned solutions. It appears to me = that what is being done is taking a no-growth approach to the problem. Bill London well articulated that no-growth "solution" in his post to = vision2020 (suggesting a housing moratorium) recently. I appreciate his = (unintentional) desire to raise all the property values in Moscow (since that's what = housing moratoriums do), but that does not promote growth -- something that I thought MCA explicitly wanted. Perhaps I misunderstood what their goal = was?=20 =20 Still scratching my head, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of Bruce and Jean Livingston Sent: Sunday, 20 July, 2003 21:07 To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Palouse Water Dale said: "if the overall amount of water available to us is = relatively constant, then the draconian measures that the MCA is calling for are unnecessary." This statement suffers from several obvious flaws that = are not typical of Dale's usual arguments. =20 =20 First, it grossly exaggerates the "draconian" measures being requested = by numerous groups, not only the Moscow Civic Association, when in fact, = all that is being requested is that the City of Moscow live up to its prior agreement about reasonably limiting its water usage along with the other governmental entities and citizens of the Palouse, those who use the = water at both universities and in Moscow and Pullman. The Moscow Civic Association and various interested parties who live here on the Palouse requested that the City stick to its prior agreement and limit pumping = from the aquifer to previously agreed amounts (that included INCREASES over = time, as I understand it). We are asking people to conserve water as a = precious scarce resource while we study and try to understand the extent of the = water resource that we are undeniably MINING. The "draconian" measures that = were being advocated by various groups were to seek voluntary cooperation by = the City -- to live up to its prior commitments, rather than enforce state = law and bring in state agencies to monitor and possibly control water usage. What was asked by the citizens concerned about Palouse water was that = the City stop wasting water and encourage conservation of an undeniably = scarce resource. =20 That leads me to my second beef with Dale's recent posting. He is a = bright man and not one to argue from a false premise. He knows better than = that, but his latest post, despite the opportunity to review the PBAC site, = still suffers from the same flaw as his original question. =20 Dale, you state that "the overall amount of water available to us is relatively constant," when the water site that you checked (and rely = upon in your post) clearly indicates otherwise. The upper aquifer, aside from = its issues regarding poor quality water (i.e., minerals, pesticides and hebicides), is not offsetting the losses from the deep, purer, cleaner aquifer water. You acknowledge that PBAC data shows the upper aquifer = is the same as it was in 1977. The same. The lower aquifer is dropping = 1-2 feet per year. Thus, the "overall amount of water available to us" (not = to mention water of high quality) is NOT constant. It is dropping 1-2 feet = per year. =20 =20 Study of the available water sources and conservation efforts during the study period is a reasonable and prudent effort. I applaud your conservation efforts, Dale. I encourage all Palouse residnets to do the same while we study the water situation and attempt to stem the loss of = a precious resource whose quantity is unknown. =20 =20 Bruce Livingston =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dale Courtney =20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 8:43 AM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Palouse Water Dianne, =20 Thanks again for the link to the report.=20 =20 For those who would like to find the 2000 annual report directly without reading thru the entire site, it's at http://www.webs.uidaho.edu/pbac/pubs/00report.pdf.=20 =20 The page of interest is page 15. FWIW, the upper (Wanapum) aquifer (as = per measurements from Well #2) is at the exact same level as it was in 1977. = It has had some significant increases and decreases, but overall the level = is what it was at 26 years ago. It would be interesting to see what the = data for 2000-2003 would show for Well #2.=20 =20 >From page 14 of the same report, there can be little doubt that the = Grande Ronde aquifer has been falling 1-1.5 feet per year. No one disputes = that.=20 =20 My question remains, however -- if the overall amount of water available = to us is relatively constant, then the draconian measures that the MCA is calling for are unnecessary.=20 Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of French Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003 18:49 To: vision2020@moscow.com Cc: dale@courtneys.us; london@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water For those wishing to review water levels in the shallower Wanapum = aquifer (no they haven't increased steadily over the past 42 years) and any = other facts about our current water supply, may I direct you to the Palouse = Basin Water Committee (PBAC) web site at www.uidaho.edu/pbac If a concerned citizen were to open and review the 2000 Annual Report, that citizen = would find a wealth of information including a graph of water levels in the Wanapum aquifer. The 2001 Annual Report is also available, but was = largely based on the 2000 report and contains fewer charts and graphs. Some of = us are anxiously awaiting the 2002 Annual report and the return to timely updates on the PBAC web site, both of which are on the foreseeable = horizon. =20 Dianne French=20 Palouse Water Conservation Network ------=_NextPart_000_0235_01C34F08.B234E710 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Bruce,
 
I=20 appreciate the tenor of your post as well as your challenges.=20
 
First,=20 I would really like to see the list of agreements that Moscow made with = the=20 State; and what the agreed amounts (and increases) are. Can someone = please point=20 me to those? That's not been presented so far, and I've asked; = everything has=20 been nebulous.
 
Second, I would like to know where Prof. Elsa = Kirsten=20 Peters got her data about the upper aquifer. Clearly, an instructor at = geology=20 at WSU should know what data she is talking = about. She points out=20 that "The = water levels=20 near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That=20 statement, however, does not imply that the water levels farther away = are=20 dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run out" = of water=20 in the lower aquifer." I would appreciate hearing a response from a geologist = concerning her=20 sentiments in the editorial from 17=20 July.
 
Finally, my = general=20 wariness comes from knee-jerk reactions as opposed to well thought out = and=20 meticulously planned solutions. It appears to me that what is being = done is=20 taking a no-growth approach to the problem. Bill London well articulated = that=20 no-growth "solution" in his post to vision2020 (suggesting a housing = moratorium)=20 recently. I appreciate his (unintentional) desire to raise all the = property=20 values in Moscow (since that's what housing moratoriums do), but that = does not=20 promote growth -- something that I thought MCA explicitly wanted. = Perhaps I=20 misunderstood what their goal was?
 
Still = scratching my=20 head,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On = Behalf=20 Of Bruce and Jean Livingston
Sent: Sunday, 20 July, 2003 = 21:07
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: = [Vision2020]=20 Palouse Water

Dale said:  "if = the overall=20 amount of water available to us is relatively constant, then the = draconian=20 measures that the MCA is calling for are unnecessary."  This = statement=20 suffers from several obvious flaws that are not typical = of Dale's=20 usual arguments. 
 
First, it grossly exaggerates the = "draconian"=20 measures being requested by numerous groups, not only the Moscow Civic = Association, when in fact, all that is being requested is = that the=20 City of Moscow live up to its prior agreement about=20 reasonably limiting its water usage along with the other=20 governmental entities and citizens of the Palouse, those who use the = water at=20 both universities and in Moscow and Pullman.  The Moscow Civic=20 Association and various interested parties who live here on the = Palouse=20 requested that the City stick to its prior agreement and limit pumping = from=20 the aquifer to previously agreed amounts (that included INCREASES = over=20 time, as I understand it).  We are asking people to conserve = water as a=20 precious scarce resource while we study and try to understand the = extent of=20 the water resource that we are undeniably MINING.  The = "draconian"=20 measures that were being advocated by various groups were to seek = voluntary=20 cooperation by the City -- to live up to its prior commitments, rather = than=20 enforce state law and bring in state agencies to monitor and = possibly control water usage.  What was asked by the citizens = concerned=20 about Palouse water was that the City stop wasting water and encourage = conservation of an undeniably scarce = resource.
 
That leads me to my second beef with = Dale's recent=20 posting.  He is a bright man and not one to argue from a = false=20 premise.  He knows better than that, but his latest post, despite = the=20 opportunity to review the PBAC site, still suffers from the same flaw = as his=20 original question.
 
Dale, you state that "the overall amount of water available to us = is relatively=20 constant," = when the water=20 site that you checked (and rely upon in your post) clearly indicates=20 otherwise.  The upper aquifer, aside from its issues regarding = poor=20 quality water (i.e., minerals, pesticides and hebicides), is not = offsetting=20 the losses from the deep, purer, cleaner aquifer water.  You = acknowledge that PBAC data shows the upper aquifer is the same as it = was in=20 1977.  The same.  The lower aquifer is dropping 1-2 feet per = year.  Thus, the "overall amount of water available to us" (not = to=20 mention water of high quality) is NOT constant.  It is = dropping 1-2=20 feet per year. 
 
Study of the available water sources and = conservation=20 efforts during the study period is a reasonable and prudent = effort.  I=20 applaud your conservation efforts, Dale.  I encourage all Palouse = residnets to do the same while we study the water situation and = attempt to=20 stem the loss of a precious resource whose quantity is unknown. =20
 
Bruce Livingston
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dale = Courtney=20
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 = 8:43=20 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] = Palouse=20 Water

Dianne,
 
Thanks again for the link to the report. =
 
For those who would like to find the 2000 annual report = directly=20 without reading thru the entire site, it's at http://www.web= s.uidaho.edu/pbac/pubs/00report.pdf.=20
 
The page of interest is page 15. FWIW, the=20 upper (Wanapum) aquifer (as per measurements from Well #2) is at the = exact same level as it was in 1977. It has had some = significant=20 increases and decreases, but overall the level is what it was at 26 = years=20 ago. It would be interesting to see what the data for 2000-2003 = would show=20 for Well #2.
 
From page 14 of the same report, there can be little doubt = that the=20 Grande Ronde aquifer has been falling 1-1.5 feet per year. No one = disputes=20 that.
 
My=20 question remains, however -- if the overall amount of water = available to us=20 is relatively constant, then the draconian measures that the MCA is = calling=20 for are unnecessary.
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On=20 Behalf Of French
Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003=20 18:49
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Cc: = dale@courtneys.us;=20 london@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse=20 Water

For those wishing to review water = levels in=20 the shallower Wanapum aquifer (no they haven't increased steadily = over the=20 past 42 years) and any other facts about our current water supply, = may I=20 direct you to the Palouse Basin Water Committee (PBAC) web site at = www.uidaho.edu/pbac  = If a=20 concerned citizen were to open and review the 2000 Annual = Report,=20 that citizen would find a wealth of information including a graph = of water=20 levels in the Wanapum aquifer.  The 2001 Annual Report is = also=20 available, but was largely based on the 2000 report and=20 contains fewer charts and graphs.  Some of us are = anxiously=20 awaiting the 2002 Annual report and the return to timely updates = on the=20 PBAC web site, both of which are on the foreseeable = horizon.
 
Dianne French 
Palouse Water Conservation=20 = Network
= ------=_NextPart_000_0235_01C34F08.B234E710-- From jeanlivingston@turbonet.com Mon Jul 21 07:49:36 2003 From: jeanlivingston@turbonet.com (Bruce and Jean Livingston) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 23:49:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water References: <023401c34f43$5e93bf10$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: <002d01c34f54$408e2350$ea70e4ce@momanddad> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C34F19.937EC000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageI encourage someone with more knowledge than I to answer the = specific questions raised by Dale Courtney about Ms. Peters' aquifer = statements and the City's water agreements. I have a general = understanding of the PBAC agreements re: water usage among UI, WSU, = Pullman and Moscow. Others are better able to give accurate, detailed = descriptions of those agreements than I could do. I don't believe that = the City of Moscow has made any agreements with the State; I believe = the agreements were local, i.e., with the aformentioned, primary Palouse = water users, and NOT the State. =20 As I understand it, the State would enter into this only as a result of = the current water mining situation and forcing of the issue by concerned = citizens in an effort to encourage responsible control/use of our = water. I also am under the impression that it is a virtual "given" that = the State will exert control over the water if a petition is presented = to the State because of the extent of the water usage and the dropping = aquifer levels. The voluntary water conservation efforts are part of an = attempt by the City of Moscow to show that it can cut down on its usage = to fit within its prior agreements, LOCALLY, and obviate the need for = State intervention that could/would occur if the City refuses to live up = to its prior local agreements and the petitions were presented to the = State. Finally, I do not mean to speak for the MCA, of which I am a member, but = my understanding is in accord with yours, Dale, i.e., that MCA is NOT in = favor of "no growth." As outlined in its recent public meetings, MCA = seeks "Smart Growth" - artistically, culturally, downtown, in our = neighborhoods and in the area of city impact and beyond in the valley = between Paradise Ridge and Moscow Mountain that we call home. It is my = impression that the Naylor Farms' attempt at a "water rights grab" -- = for undetermined purposes and with unknown effects upon the rest of us = -- raised concerns about rampant, unfettered and potentially damaging = growth to me, and many of my compatriots in the MCA and Moscow, = generally.=20 Hope that someone answers Dale's water/geology questions before he goes = bald from all of that scratching he's doing. I'd like to know, too, and = I can't spare the hair. Bruce Livingston ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dale Courtney=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Cc: 'Bruce and Jean Livingston'=20 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:48 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Palouse Water Bruce, I appreciate the tenor of your post as well as your challenges.=20 First, I would really like to see the list of agreements that Moscow = made with the State; and what the agreed amounts (and increases) are. = Can someone please point me to those? That's not been presented so far, = and I've asked; everything has been nebulous. Second, I would like to know where Prof. Elsa Kirsten Peters got her = data about the upper aquifer. Clearly, an instructor at geology at WSU = should know what data she is talking about. She points out that "The = water levels near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are = dropping. That statement, however, does not imply that the water levels = farther away are dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that = we "will run out" of water in the lower aquifer." I would appreciate = hearing a response from a geologist concerning her sentiments in the = editorial from 17 July. Finally, my general wariness comes from knee-jerk reactions as opposed = to well thought out and meticulously planned solutions. It appears to me = that what is being done is taking a no-growth approach to the problem. = Bill London well articulated that no-growth "solution" in his post to = vision2020 (suggesting a housing moratorium) recently. I appreciate his = (unintentional) desire to raise all the property values in Moscow (since = that's what housing moratoriums do), but that does not promote growth -- = something that I thought MCA explicitly wanted. Perhaps I misunderstood = what their goal was?=20 Still scratching my head, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com = [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Bruce and Jean = Livingston Sent: Sunday, 20 July, 2003 21:07 To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Palouse Water Dale said: "if the overall amount of water available to us is = relatively constant, then the draconian measures that the MCA is calling = for are unnecessary." This statement suffers from several obvious flaws = that are not typical of Dale's usual arguments. =20 First, it grossly exaggerates the "draconian" measures being = requested by numerous groups, not only the Moscow Civic Association, = when in fact, all that is being requested is that the City of Moscow = live up to its prior agreement about reasonably limiting its water usage = along with the other governmental entities and citizens of the Palouse, = those who use the water at both universities and in Moscow and Pullman. = The Moscow Civic Association and various interested parties who live = here on the Palouse requested that the City stick to its prior agreement = and limit pumping from the aquifer to previously agreed amounts (that = included INCREASES over time, as I understand it). We are asking people = to conserve water as a precious scarce resource while we study and try = to understand the extent of the water resource that we are undeniably = MINING. The "draconian" measures that were being advocated by various = groups were to seek voluntary cooperation by the City -- to live up to = its prior commitments, rather than enforce state law and bring in state = agencies to monitor and possibly control water usage. What was asked by = the citizens concerned about Palouse water was that the City stop = wasting water and encourage conservation of an undeniably scarce = resource. That leads me to my second beef with Dale's recent posting. He is a = bright man and not one to argue from a false premise. He knows better = than that, but his latest post, despite the opportunity to review the = PBAC site, still suffers from the same flaw as his original question. Dale, you state that "the overall amount of water available to us is = relatively constant," when the water site that you checked (and rely = upon in your post) clearly indicates otherwise. The upper aquifer, = aside from its issues regarding poor quality water (i.e., minerals, = pesticides and hebicides), is not offsetting the losses from the deep, = purer, cleaner aquifer water. You acknowledge that PBAC data shows the = upper aquifer is the same as it was in 1977. The same. The lower = aquifer is dropping 1-2 feet per year. Thus, the "overall amount of = water available to us" (not to mention water of high quality) is NOT = constant. It is dropping 1-2 feet per year. =20 Study of the available water sources and conservation efforts during = the study period is a reasonable and prudent effort. I applaud your = conservation efforts, Dale. I encourage all Palouse residnets to do the = same while we study the water situation and attempt to stem the loss of = a precious resource whose quantity is unknown. =20 Bruce Livingston ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dale Courtney=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 8:43 AM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Palouse Water Dianne, Thanks again for the link to the report.=20 For those who would like to find the 2000 annual report directly = without reading thru the entire site, it's at = http://www.webs.uidaho.edu/pbac/pubs/00report.pdf.=20 The page of interest is page 15. FWIW, the upper (Wanapum) aquifer = (as per measurements from Well #2) is at the exact same level as it was = in 1977. It has had some significant increases and decreases, but = overall the level is what it was at 26 years ago. It would be = interesting to see what the data for 2000-2003 would show for Well #2.=20 From page 14 of the same report, there can be little doubt that = the Grande Ronde aquifer has been falling 1-1.5 feet per year. No one = disputes that.=20 My question remains, however -- if the overall amount of water = available to us is relatively constant, then the draconian measures that = the MCA is calling for are unnecessary.=20 Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com = [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of French Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003 18:49 To: vision2020@moscow.com Cc: dale@courtneys.us; london@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water For those wishing to review water levels in the shallower = Wanapum aquifer (no they haven't increased steadily over the past 42 = years) and any other facts about our current water supply, may I direct = you to the Palouse Basin Water Committee (PBAC) web site at = www.uidaho.edu/pbac If a concerned citizen were to open and review the = 2000 Annual Report, that citizen would find a wealth of information = including a graph of water levels in the Wanapum aquifer. The 2001 = Annual Report is also available, but was largely based on the 2000 = report and contains fewer charts and graphs. Some of us are anxiously = awaiting the 2002 Annual report and the return to timely updates on the = PBAC web site, both of which are on the foreseeable horizon. Dianne French=20 Palouse Water Conservation Network ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C34F19.937EC000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
I encourage someone with more knowledge than I = to answer the=20 specific questions raised by Dale Courtney about Ms. Peters' aquifer = statements=20 and the City's water agreements.  I have a general understanding of = the=20 PBAC agreements re: water usage among UI, WSU, Pullman and Moscow.  = Others=20 are better able to give accurate, detailed descriptions of those = agreements than=20 I could do.  I don't believe that the City of  Moscow has made = any=20 agreements with the State;  I believe the agreements were local, = i.e., with=20 the aformentioned, primary Palouse water users, and NOT the = State. =20
 
As I understand it, the State would enter into this only as a = result of the=20 current water mining situation and forcing of the issue by concerned = citizens in=20 an effort to encourage  responsible control/use of our water.  = I also=20 am under the impression that it is a virtual "given" that the State = will=20 exert control over the water if a petition is presented to the=20 State because of the extent of the water usage and the dropping = aquifer=20 levels.  The voluntary water conservation efforts are part of = an=20 attempt by the City of Moscow to show that it can cut down on its usage = to fit=20 within its prior agreements, LOCALLY, and obviate the need for State=20 intervention that could/would occur if the City refuses to live up to = its prior=20 local agreements and the petitions were presented to the State.
 
Finally, I do not mean to speak for the MCA, of which I am a = member, but my=20 understanding is in accord with yours, Dale, i.e., that MCA is NOT = in favor=20 of "no growth."   As outlined in its recent public = meetings,=20 MCA seeks  "Smart Growth" - artistically, culturally, downtown, in = our=20 neighborhoods and in the area of city impact and beyond in the = valley=20 between Paradise Ridge and Moscow Mountain that we call home.  = It is=20 my impression that the Naylor Farms' attempt at a  "water rights = grab" --=20 for undetermined purposes and with unknown effects upon the rest of us=20 -- raised concerns about rampant, unfettered and potentially=20 damaging growth to me, and many of my compatriots in the MCA and = Moscow,=20 generally. 
 
Hope that someone answers Dale's water/geology questions before he = goes=20 bald from all of that scratching he's doing.  I'd like to know, = too, and I=20 can't spare the hair.
 
Bruce Livingston
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dale = Courtney=20
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 = 9:48 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] = Palouse=20 Water

Bruce,
 
I=20 appreciate the tenor of your post as well as your challenges.=20
 
First, I would really like to see the list of agreements that = Moscow=20 made with the State; and what the agreed amounts (and increases) are. = Can=20 someone please point me to those? That's not been presented so far, = and I've=20 asked; everything has been nebulous.
 
Second, I would like to know where Prof. = Elsa Kirsten=20 Peters got her data about the upper aquifer. Clearly, an instructor at = geology=20 at WSU should know what data she is talking = about. She points out=20 that "The water levels=20 near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That = statement, however, does not imply that the water levels farther away = are=20 dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run = out" of=20 water in the lower aquifer." I would appreciate hearing a response from a = geologist=20 concerning her sentiments in the editorial from 17=20 July.
 
Finally, = my general=20 wariness comes from knee-jerk reactions as opposed to well thought out = and=20 meticulously planned solutions. It appears to me that what is = being done=20 is taking a no-growth approach to the problem. Bill London well = articulated=20 that no-growth "solution" in his post to vision2020 (suggesting a = housing=20 moratorium) recently. I appreciate his (unintentional) desire to raise = all the=20 property values in Moscow (since that's what housing moratoriums do), = but that=20 does not promote growth -- something that I thought MCA explicitly = wanted.=20 Perhaps I misunderstood what their goal was?
 
Still = scratching my=20 head,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On=20 Behalf Of Bruce and Jean Livingston
Sent: Sunday, 20 = July,=20 2003 21:07
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: = Re:=20 [Vision2020] Palouse Water

Dale said:  "if the overall=20 amount of water available to us is relatively constant, then the = draconian=20 measures that the MCA is calling for are unnecessary."  This = statement=20 suffers from several obvious flaws that are not typical = of Dale's=20 usual arguments. 
 
First, it grossly exaggerates the = "draconian"=20 measures being requested by numerous groups, not only the Moscow = Civic=20 Association, when in fact, all that is being requested is = that the=20 City of Moscow live up to its prior agreement about=20 reasonably limiting its water usage along with the other=20 governmental entities and citizens of the Palouse, those who use the = water=20 at both universities and in Moscow and Pullman.  The Moscow = Civic=20 Association and various interested parties who live here on the = Palouse=20 requested that the City stick to its prior agreement and limit = pumping from=20 the aquifer to previously agreed amounts (that = included INCREASES over=20 time, as I understand it).  We are asking people to conserve = water as a=20 precious scarce resource while we study and try to understand the = extent of=20 the water resource that we are undeniably MINING.  The = "draconian"=20 measures that were being advocated by various groups were to seek = voluntary=20 cooperation by the City -- to live up to its prior commitments, = rather than=20 enforce state law and bring in state agencies to = monitor and=20 possibly control water usage.  What was asked by the citizens = concerned=20 about Palouse water was that the City stop wasting water and = encourage=20 conservation of an undeniably scarce = resource.
 
That leads me to my second beef with = Dale's=20 recent posting.  He is a bright man and not one to argue = from a=20 false premise.  He knows better than that, but his latest post, = despite=20 the opportunity to review the PBAC site, still suffers from the same = flaw as=20 his original question.
 
Dale, you state that "the overall amount of water available to us = is=20 relatively constant," when=20 the water site that you checked (and rely upon in your post) clearly = indicates otherwise.  The upper aquifer, aside from its issues=20 regarding poor quality water (i.e., minerals, pesticides and = hebicides), is=20 not offsetting the losses from the deep, purer, cleaner aquifer = water.  You acknowledge that PBAC data shows the upper aquifer = is the=20 same as it was in 1977.  The same.  The lower aquifer is = dropping=20 1-2 feet per year.  Thus, the "overall amount of water = available to us"=20 (not to mention water of high quality) is NOT constant.  = It is=20 dropping 1-2 feet per year. 
 
Study of the available water sources and = conservation=20 efforts during the study period is a reasonable and prudent = effort.  I=20 applaud your conservation efforts, Dale.  I encourage all = Palouse=20 residnets to do the same while we study the water situation and = attempt to=20 stem the loss of a precious resource whose quantity is = unknown. =20
 
Bruce Livingston
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Dale=20 Courtney
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 = 8:43=20 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] = Palouse=20 Water

Dianne,
 
Thanks again for the link to the report. =
 
For those who would like to find the 2000 annual report = directly=20 without reading thru the entire site, it's at http://www.web= s.uidaho.edu/pbac/pubs/00report.pdf.=20
 
The page of interest is page 15. FWIW, the=20 upper (Wanapum) aquifer (as per measurements from Well #2) is at = the=20 exact same level as it was in 1977. It has had some = significant=20 increases and decreases, but overall the level is what it was at = 26 years=20 ago. It would be interesting to see what the data for 2000-2003 = would show=20 for Well #2.
 
From page 14 of the same report, there can be little = doubt that the=20 Grande Ronde aquifer has been falling 1-1.5 feet per year. No one = disputes=20 that.
 
My question remains, however -- if the overall amount of = water=20 available to us is relatively constant, then the draconian = measures that=20 the MCA is calling for are unnecessary.
Best,
Dale
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On=20 Behalf Of French
Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003=20 18:49
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Cc:=20 dale@courtneys.us; london@moscow.com
Subject: = [Vision2020]=20 Palouse Water

For those wishing to review = water levels in=20 the shallower Wanapum aquifer (no they haven't increased = steadily over=20 the past 42 years) and any other facts about our current water = supply,=20 may I direct you to the Palouse Basin Water Committee (PBAC) web = site at=20 www.uidaho.edu/pbac  If a=20 concerned citizen were to open and review the 2000 Annual = Report,=20 that citizen would find a wealth of information including a = graph of=20 water levels in the Wanapum aquifer.  The 2001 Annual = Report is=20 also available, but was largely based on the 2000 report and=20 contains fewer charts and graphs.  Some of us are = anxiously=20 awaiting the 2002 Annual report and the return to timely updates = on the=20 PBAC web site, both of which are on the foreseeable=20 horizon.
 
Dianne = French 
Palouse Water Conservation=20 = Network
<= /BODY> ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C34F19.937EC000-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jul 21 13:03:22 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 05:03:22 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! Message-ID: Matt, You stated, "You have attacked Mr Hansen and Mr. Kaag, who are both prior veterans of Vietnam, all because you don't agree with them." This is an arrogant statement Matt. Are you supposing that I never attack an opinion of someone because they served in the military? Sorry, I don't think because someone has served in the military that makes them correct on every issue. It doesn't make them wrong all the time by any means. But it is not an automatic qualification for being correct. You wrote: "Also, this is a community site, so by saying that you would like to meet Mr. Kaag face to face, I took that as wanting to fight." I admit. I was very angry at Mr. Kaag, for defending an attack against my father, a 22 year vet, for being called immature. That is wrong for someone to say that about him and one that is his superior officer and saved many lives of many military people on many occasions. I did not mean for it as to mean only a physical fight, but to talk it out. I called Mr. Kaag on the phone and refused to discuss it. I think that shows that he is unwilling to defend his words against my Father. I was also upset that he accused me of not respecting Mr. Hansen's service as a disabled vet. That is wrong too. Me and my family have spent 55 years fighting for the rights of the disabled and the military vets. Me, and my family's record does not square with that false accusation. If Mr. Kaag takes that to mean a invitation to "kick my butt" to prove he is right, then that is fine he can do that all night long for the next 55 years. But I think Mr. Kaag is still incorrect for his attacking and misrepresenting the 55 year history of me and my family. So quiet frankly, I don't care who attacks my father and my family, or me. If they are wrong in their attacks, they are wrong. And I will not back down from that. People deserve more respect than to be slammed and accused falsely of attacks against them. Mr. Kaag shows arrogance in thinking that I am for hurting vets or disabled people. When I have spent my whole life doing the opposite. I will not sit back and allow people to accuse me or my family of such things and than walk away. He needs to address this issue. If his way of doing that is fighting me, fine. I prefer to talk about it over the phone or a cup of coffee, I'll buy. Matt, your implying that people only stand up for what is right when they are smaller, weaker, or less powerful then you shows weakness of character. If someone attacked your family, mother, or father, would you cower away because they are more powerful than you? I would hope not. Nor does my family that makes up over 200 members of this community. I have great respect for Mr.Kaag, Mr. Hansen,My Father, my brother, and both grandfather, for their service to the military and the people of the United States. But, Mr. Kaag has lost all that respect when defending attacks against my father, another veteran, and attacks against my me and my family that have a 55 year history of serving the military and disabled persons. That I and my family can't ignore, and won't ignore. I do apologize for spending that last email to vision2020. I meant to send it to Mr. Kaag, only. So for that I apologize to Mr. Kaag and the others on Vision2020. It was not appropiate to post on this public server list. I was very angry and hit "reply all" instead of "reply" only out of habit. I also want to thank Mr.Hansen for privatly emailing me and getting our misunderstanding cleared up. I have great respect for Mr. Hansen doing that and am gald you can talk to each other again. Thanks, Donovan J Arnold _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jul 21 13:24:03 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 05:24:03 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Death toll now reaches over 150 since war declared over Message-ID: Another two killed today :( Many more wounded. :( This now brings the toll of deaths over what it was in the invasion. I am so sad. :( "AMBUSH KILLS GI, INTERPRETER An American soldier with the First Armored Division died along with an Iraqi interpreter when the Humvee in which they were riding was attacked Monday morning, a U.S. military spokesman said."---CNN report Donovan J Arnold _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From thansen@moscow.com Mon Jul 21 13:34:15 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 05:34:15 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] RE: Re: Cynical..... In-Reply-To: <001401c34f40$fecc50d0$83f2f5c7@biff> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B6_01C34F49.B92CBE30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Correct me if I am wrong. But, last night on the news did I hear that GW is including his speech writer? I could hav wsworn that I hear that GW is blaming the CIA for lying to him and his speech writer for including the lie in his State of the Union Address. If this is true, GW's definitions of "integrity" and "responsibility" must differ from mine. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Brent Capener Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:32 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] RE: Re: Cynical..... Whoops, by including the quote by R. McGovern my sarcasm is confusing. It is within the article accessed through the link that the "buck gets passed on" to Clinton BC ------=_NextPart_000_00B6_01C34F49.B92CBE30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Correct me if I=20 am wrong.  But, last night on the news did I hear that GW is = including his=20 speech writer?  I could hav wsworn that I hear that GW is blaming = the CIA=20 for lying to him and his speech writer for including the lie in his = State of the=20 Union Address.  If this is true, GW's definitions of "integrity" = and=20 "responsibility" must differ from mine.
 
Tom = Hansen
Moscow,=20 Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Brent=20 Capener
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:32 PM
To:=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] RE: Re:=20 Cynical.....

Whoops, by including the quote by R. = McGovern my=20 sarcasm is confusing.  It is within the article accessed through = the link=20 that the "buck gets passed on" to Clinton
 
BC
------=_NextPart_000_00B6_01C34F49.B92CBE30-- From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jul 21 16:01:50 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 08:01:50 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! In-Reply-To: <005501c34e86$535cca00$1ef2f5c7@gladiator> Message-ID: <025a01c34f99$03dcabd0$ca01a8c0@home> Deacon wrote: > As this is a public forum, it would be appreciated if you > watched your mouth (or at least your typing fingers). Actually, it's been very enlightening, watching how intolerant "the tolerant" are -- hence the expression "the intolerant tolerant". It's a good thing Rose interjected and broke it up. Nothing like a pacifist to end a boy's brawl... Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From mitch@mochaoflove.org Mon Jul 21 16:59:17 2003 From: mitch@mochaoflove.org (Mitch Parks) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 08:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Death toll now reaches over 150 since war declared over In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How do you prioritize your concerns for America? We have a much bigger enemy, which kills 1,200 people every day: cigarette smoking. Sure, this doesn't get much coverage on the evening news, but ~1,200 people will still die today. I'm not saying I'm wholeheartedly(or even half) behind our actions in Iraq, but a little perspective is important. Mitch Parks Moscow, ID On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Donovan Arnold wrote: > Another two killed today :( > > Many more wounded. :( > > This now brings the toll of deaths over what it was in the invasion. I am so > sad. :( > > "AMBUSH KILLS GI, INTERPRETER > > An American soldier with the First Armored Division died along with an Iraqi > interpreter when the Humvee in which they were riding was attacked Monday > morning, a U.S. military spokesman said."---CNN report > > > Donovan J Arnold > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jul 21 17:12:56 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:12:56 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Death toll now reaches over 150 since war declared over Message-ID: Mitch, You bring up a very good point and something that should not be ignored. But I will counter it with another argument. The troops are not putting the guns to their own heads and pulling the trigger, such is the case with cigarette smokers such as myself. Donovan J Arnold >From: Mitch Parks >To: Donovan Arnold >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Death toll now reaches over 150 since war >declared over >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 08:59:17 -0700 (PDT) > >How do you prioritize your concerns for America? > >We have a much bigger enemy, which kills 1,200 people every day: cigarette >smoking. > >Sure, this doesn't get much coverage on the evening news, but ~1,200 >people will still die today. > >I'm not saying I'm wholeheartedly(or even half) behind our actions in >Iraq, but a little perspective is important. > >Mitch Parks >Moscow, ID > >On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Donovan Arnold wrote: > > > Another two killed today :( > > > > Many more wounded. :( > > > > This now brings the toll of deaths over what it was in the invasion. I >am so > > sad. :( > > > > "AMBUSH KILLS GI, INTERPRETER > > > > An American soldier with the First Armored Division died along with an >Iraqi > > interpreter when the Humvee in which they were riding was attacked >Monday > > morning, a U.S. military spokesman said."---CNN report > > > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From dougwils@moscow.com Mon Jul 21 18:14:40 2003 From: dougwils@moscow.com (Douglas) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:14:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Response to Vera Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030721101101.01d02f98@mail.moscow.com> Visionaries, I sent this response to Vera's weekend piece to the Daily News this morning. FYI. Cordially, Douglas Wilson Response to Vera Douglas Wilson Vera White laments the fact that Moscowans are becoming less civil to one another (July 19/20, 2003), and in the course of her discussion she locates the source of the contagion--Christ Church. As the minister of Christ Church, I do not ask Vera to get the facts right--believing as I do that the age of miracles is past--but I would like the opportunity to respond if I may. Progressives love to celebrate diversity, until they actually start getting some. And when they do start hearing opinions not in line with their idea of what ought to be the consensus, they start getting Concerned. And one of the first responses is that the purveyors of heterodoxy (i.e. stuff progressives never heard on NPR) get themselves misrepresented. Like in Vera's column, for instance. First she identified Christ Church as part of the Religious Right, and that we identify ourselves as the one true religion. These claims are, reading from left to right, false and false. For many years, in sermons, magazines and books, our church has been sharply critical of the Religious Right. This could have been verified by means of an arcane technique called "reporting." And we do not believe that our church has a monopoly on truth. We are Christians, and this means that we believe the Christian faith to be true, good and lovely, but we happily share this view with many other Christian churches--Evangelical Free, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican, and more. We repudiate the religious individualism that restricts the faithful to "thee and me, and I have my doubts about thee." Then Vera mentioned the current debate over the state of the government school system--as though the debate created guilt in parents who keep their kids enrolled, and presumably created the exodus of parents leaving those schools. But this is the reverse of what happened. The debate did not create any exodus; the exodus created the debate. The population of school-aged children in our area was rising, the population of students in the government school system was falling, and local solons were publicly scratching their noggins. Where could the kids be? The answer was that they were heading into the private education sector, which is thriving. This was pointed out, and a debate started. But the heart of this issue was not civil discourse or the lack of it, but rather the comparative performance of the schools. Third, Vera says that the welcome mat for gays and lesbians "isn't out" at several downtown church-run businesses. Church-run businesses? Name one. It is true that members of Christ Church have businesses and jobs, but I believe this is also true of other churches. And with regard to lack of welcome, this was not reported on the basis of any policies, any signs in any windows, or anything else of the kind. Rather, this particular breaking story is mentioned on the basis of how several members of the gay and lesbian axis said they felt. What is this? Given my "orientation," if I were to enter a tattoo emporium, I would hardly expect applause to break out. And it wouldn't hurt my feelings if it didn't. This is an area were some folks need to grow up just a little bit. And fourth, she notes (through more cracker-jack shoe leather reporting) that in this new climate woe shall betide the hapless idiot who fails to support President Bush. But that would include me. Now what? I don't support Bush. Didn't vote for him. Neither did a whole bunch of my friends at Christ Church. In short, Vera undertook to discuss incivility, on a mission to locate where all this bad karma was coming from. In the course of her representation of Christ Church, she got every salient fact wrong. Perhaps this is why some are tempted to be uncivil. When the people who buy ink by the barrel do not care enough about the facts to check with those they so glibly misrepresent, the reactions can be bad. I do not say this in defense of any incivility, which is wrong regardless. But the people who have expressed concern about all this incivility need to learn how to blame their own astounding provincialism. Diversity in propaganda puff pieces is quite different from true diversity on the street. From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 18:12:11 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] GO VERA, BASH THAT CULT!! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030721101101.01d02f98@mail.moscow.com> Message-ID: <20030721171211.97723.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> --0-972967262-1058807531=:97426 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii GO VERA, BASH THAT CULT!! Douglas wrote: Visionaries, I sent this response to Vera's weekend piece to the Daily News this morning. FYI. Cordially, Douglas Wilson Response to Vera Douglas Wilson Vera White laments the fact that Moscowans are becoming less civil to one another (July 19/20, 2003), and in the course of her discussion she locates the source of the contagion--Christ Church. As the minister of Christ Church, I do not ask Vera to get the facts right--believing as I do that the age of miracles is past--but I would like the opportunity to respond if I may. Progressives love to celebrate diversity, until they actually start getting some. And when they do start hearing opinions not in line with their idea of what ought to be the consensus, they start getting Concerned. And one of the first responses is that the purveyors of heterodoxy (i.e. stuff progressives never heard on NPR) get themselves misrepresented. Like in Vera's column, for instance. First she identified Christ Church as part of the Religious Right, and that we identify ourselves as the one true religion. These claims are, reading from left to right, false and false. For many years, in sermons, magazines and books, our church has been sharply critical of the Religious Right. This could have been verified by means of an arcane technique called "reporting." And we do not believe that our church has a monopoly on truth. We are Christians, and this means that we believe the Christian faith to be true, good and lovely, but we happily share this view with many other Christian churches--Evangelical Free, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican, and more. We repudiate the religious individualism that restricts the faithful to "thee and me, and I have my doubts about thee." Then Vera mentioned the current debate over the state of the government school system--as though the debate created guilt in parents who keep their kids enrolled, and presumably created the exodus of parents leaving those schools. But this is the reverse of what happened. The debate did not create any exodus; the exodus created the debate. The population of school-aged children in our area was rising, the population of students in the government school system was falling, and local solons were publicly scratching their noggins. Where could the kids be? The answer was that they were heading into the private education sector, which is thriving. This was pointed out, and a debate started. But the heart of this issue was not civil discourse or the lack of it, but rather the comparative performance of the schools. Third, Vera says that the welcome mat for gays and lesbians "isn't out" at several downtown church-run businesses. Church-run businesses? Name one. It is true that members of Christ Church have businesses and jobs, but I believe this is also true of other churches. And with regard to lack of welcome, this was not reported on the basis of any policies, any signs in any windows, or anything else of the kind. Rather, this particular breaking story is mentioned on the basis of how several members of the gay and lesbian axis said they felt. What is this? Given my "orientation," if I were to enter a tattoo emporium, I would hardly expect applause to break out. And it wouldn't hurt my feelings if it didn't. This is an area were some folks need to grow up just a little bit. And fourth, she notes (through more cracker-jack shoe leather reporting) that in this new climate woe shall betide the hapless idiot who fails to support President Bush. But that would include me. Now what? I don't support Bush. Didn't vote for him. Neither did a whole bunch of my friends at Christ Church. In short, Vera undertook to discuss incivility, on a mission to locate where all this bad karma was coming from. In the course of her representation of Christ Church, she got every salient fact wrong. Perhaps this is why some are tempted to be uncivil. When the people who buy ink by the barrel do not care enough about the facts to check with those they so glibly misrepresent, the reactions can be bad. I do not say this in defense of any incivility, which is wrong regardless. But the people who have expressed concern about all this incivility need to learn how to blame their own astounding provincialism. Diversity in propaganda puff pieces is quite different from true diversity on the street. _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-972967262-1058807531=:97426 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

GO VERA, BASH THAT CULT!!

Douglas <dougwils@moscow.com> wrote:
Visionaries,

I sent this response to Vera's weekend piece to the Daily News this
morning. FYI.

Cordially,

Douglas Wilson



Response to Vera
Douglas Wilson

Vera White laments the fact that Moscowans are becoming less civil to one
another (July 19/20, 2003), and in the course of her discussion she locates
the source of the contagion--Christ Church. As the minister of Christ
Church, I do not ask Vera to get the facts right--believing as I do that
the age of miracles is past--but I would like the opportunity to respond if
I may.
Progressives love to celebrate diversity, until they actually
start getting some. And when they do start hearing opinions not in line
with their idea of what ought to be the consensus, they start getting
Concerned. And one of the first responses is that the purveyors of
heterodoxy (i.e. stuff progressives never heard on NPR) get themselves
misrepresented. Like in Vera's column, for instance.
First she identified Christ Church as part of the Religious Right,
and that we identify ourselves as the one true religion. These claims are,
reading from left to right, false and false. For many years, in sermons,
magazines and books, our church has been sharply critical of the Religious
Right. This could have been verified by means of an arcane technique called
"reporting." And we do not believe that our church has a monopoly on truth.
We are Christians, and this means that we believe the Christian faith to be
true, good and lovely, but we happily share this view with many other
Christian churches--Evangelical Free, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian,
Anglican, and more. We repudiate the religious individualism that restricts
the faithful to "thee and me, and I have my doubts about thee."
Then Vera ! mentioned the current debate over the state of the
government school system--as though the debate created guilt in parents who
keep their kids enrolled, and presumably created the exodus of parents
leaving those schools. But this is the reverse of what happened. The debate
did not create any exodus; the exodus created the debate. The population of
school-aged children in our area was rising, the population of students in
the government school system was falling, and local solons were publicly
scratching their noggins. Where could the kids be? The answer was that they
were heading into the private education sector, which is thriving. This was
pointed out, and a debate started. But the heart of this issue was not
civil discourse or the lack of it, but rather the comparative performance
of the schools.
Third, Vera says that the welcome mat for gays and lesbians "isn't
out" at several downtown church-run businesses. Church-run businesses! ? Name
one. It is true that members of Christ Church have businesses and jobs, but
I believe this is also true of other churches. And with regard to lack of
welcome, this was not reported on the basis of any policies, any signs in
any windows, or anything else of the kind. Rather, this particular breaking
story is mentioned on the basis of how several members of the gay and
lesbian axis said they felt. What is this? Given my "orientation," if I
were to enter a tattoo emporium, I would hardly expect applause to break
out. And it wouldn't hurt my feelings if it didn't. This is an area were
some folks need to grow up just a little bit.
And fourth, she notes (through more cracker-jack shoe leather
reporting) that in this new climate woe shall betide the hapless idiot who
fails to support President Bush. But that would include me. Now what? I
don't support Bush. Didn't vote for him. Neither did a whole bunch of my
friends at Christ Church.
In short, Vera undertook to discuss incivility, on a mission to
locate where all this bad karma was coming from. In the course of her
representation of Christ Church, she got every salient fact wrong. Perhaps
this is why some are tempted to be uncivil. When the people who buy ink by
the barrel do not care enough about the facts to check with those they so
glibly misrepresent, the reactions can be bad. I do not say this in defense
of any incivility, which is wrong regardless. But the people who have
expressed concern about all this incivility need to learn how to blame
their own astounding provincialism. Diversity in propaganda puff pieces is
quite different from true diversity on the street.



_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-972967262-1058807531=:97426-- From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Mon Jul 21 18:17:46 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:17:46 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Dysfunction Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FE6@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> "The only consistent feature of all your dissatisfying relationships is you." - www.Despair.com Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From susanp@moscow.com Mon Jul 21 20:29:56 2003 From: susanp@moscow.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:29:56 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] piano Message-ID: <002401c34fbe$77ccd900$c2f2f5c7@hppav> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C34F83.CB01AAA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We have an old, functional, upright piano that we are prepared to part = with. The primary piano player is now out of the house. If you are willing to hire a professional piano mover to move it, it is = yours at no additional cost. Please respond privately if you are interested. Susan Palmer ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C34F83.CB01AAA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We have an old, functional, upright = piano that we=20 are prepared to part with. The primary piano player is now out of the=20 house.
 
If you are willing to hire a = professional piano=20 mover to move it, it is yours at no additional cost.
 
Please respond privately if you are=20 interested.
 
Susan Palmer
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C34F83.CB01AAA0-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 21:16:52 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] regarding doug wilson Message-ID: <20030721201652.5745.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1853593843-1058818612=:3722 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii vera: you were much too generous, only naming Christ Church as the source of impolite behavior in town. i recently made a friend, who works at the alturas technology park. she confirmed the worst that i have been suspecting regarding doug wilson's cult: these people are recruiting church members from places like monroe, louisiana, where the well-known hate preacher j. steven wilkins has a church. she also told me how horrible they are to her on the job. yesterday, on tim lohrman's radio show, bill london talked about a parallel universe being created here in moscow by Christ church. what people are not really understanding, though, is that the doctrine of Christ church goes way beyond the basic brainwashing: doug wilson is actually preaching a thinly-disguised violence from his pulpit, and then he goes and denies what he's doing when people in moscow criticize his techniques. the man is all about violence, just take a look at this year's commencement speech at new saint andrews: the speaker encouraged the students to be EXTREMIST Christians. bill london should have the courage to really come out and say all that he wants to about doug wilson and Christ church, because he sounded very self-restricted on KUOI yesterday. it's obvious that there are people actually moving away from moscow as a result of the discrimination present at bucer's, greenfield's coffee and other Christ church-affiliated businesses. doug wilson is using the chamber of commerce, the Latah Economic Development Council and plain-old "good-old boy" techniques to put on the appearance that he is good for this town: HE IS BAD FOR MOSCOW. speak out against what he's doing! again, doug wilson is a liar and an evil man. STOP HIM FROM CONTINUING IN THIS TOWN. BREAK HIS CULT IN THE MEDIA, AND EXPOSE THE HATRED HE TEACHES FROM HIS PULPIT. -douglas stambler (moscow) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1853593843-1058818612=:3722 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
vera:
 
you were much too generous, only naming Christ Church as the source of impolite behavior in town.  i recently made a friend, who works at the alturas technology park.  she confirmed the worst that i have been suspecting regarding doug wilson's cult: these people are recruiting church members from places like monroe, louisiana, where the well-known hate preacher j. steven wilkins has a church.  she also told me how horrible they are to her on the job.
 
yesterday, on tim lohrman's radio show, bill london talked about a parallel universe being created here in moscow by Christ church.  what people are not really understanding, though, is that the doctrine of Christ church goes way beyond the basic brainwashing: doug wilson is actually preaching a thinly-disguised violence from his pulpit, and then he goes and denies what he's doing when people in moscow criticize his techniques.  the man is all about violence, just take a look at this year's commencement speech at new saint andrews: the speaker encouraged the students to be EXTREMIST Christians.
 
bill london should have the courage to really come out and say all that he wants to about doug wilson and Christ church, because he sounded very self-restricted on KUOI yesterday.  it's obvious that there are people actually moving away from moscow as a result of the discrimination present at bucer's, greenfield's coffee and other Christ church-affiliated businesses.  doug wilson is using the chamber of commerce, the Latah Economic Development Council and plain-old "good-old boy" techniques to put on the appearance that he is good for this town: HE IS BAD FOR MOSCOW.  speak out against what he's doing!
 
again, doug wilson is a liar and an evil man.  STOP HIM FROM CONTINUING IN THIS TOWN.  BREAK HIS CULT IN THE MEDIA, AND EXPOSE THE HATRED HE TEACHES FROM HIS PULPIT.
 
-douglas stambler
(moscow)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1853593843-1058818612=:3722-- From susanp@moscow.com Mon Jul 21 21:26:26 2003 From: susanp@moscow.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:26:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] piano spoken for Message-ID: <003801c34fc6$5ce471e0$a0f2f5c7@hppav> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C34F8B.B017BCE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Amazingly rapid responses to the piano offer! It appears to be spoken = for. Three replies thusfar, so there is a wait list in case things fall = through. Many thanks, Susan Palmer ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C34F8B.B017BCE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Amazingly rapid responses to the piano = offer! It=20 appears to be spoken for. Three replies thusfar, so there is a wait = list in=20 case things fall through.
 
Many thanks,
Susan Palmer
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C34F8B.B017BCE0-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 01:00:35 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 00:00:35 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day: ATR BIAS? Message-ID: Dale et. al. I think ATR (Americans for Tax Reform) provides misleading figures. I present data from the Tax Foundation below to support my claim. http://www.taxfoundation.org See below for an brief analysis of different conclusions than ATR on percent of government costs paid out of their income by the "average American worker" (ATRs wording) based on a brief excerpt from a study by the Tax Foundation. Ted The data Dale presented can be found at: http://www.atr.org/pdffiles/2003cogd.pdf The following is based on a Tax Foundation organization study available through their web site: http://taxfoundation.org/prmedianfamily.html Though the study quoted here does not give information for recent years, it does include data through 1998. Federal, state and local taxes paid as a percent of income, not the absolute amount, according to this study, were in 1997 40.9 % of a median two income families income. A median one income families tax burden was 38.6 % in 1997. Translating this into days worked to pay this percent of tax, comes out to 149 days for the two income median family in 1997, and 142 days for the one income median family. This means they had paid their taxes towards the end of May in 1997. However, on the ATR website, according to the chart they provide, "government costs" for the year 1997 paid by the "average American worker," were not paid till around June 30, over a month later than the data from the Tax Foundation would suggest. The misleading aspect of their calculations may involve including the huge taxes paid by the wealthy, and then averaging them in with the taxes paid by the "average worker." I don't think it is fair, certainly it is misleading, to average in the huge taxes paid by the wealthy, and then claim the data represents the "average worker." I did not find information in the ATR report on whether or not the high taxes of the wealthy were averaged in with the taxes of the "average American worker." Dale, can you provide the data on this question about averaging the high taxes of the wealthy in with the taxes paid by the "average American worker" in the ATR report on number of days worked by the "average American worker" to pay the cost of government? Another variable is how the cost of government regulations are included in the "cost of government" figures used by ATR to determine the number of days worked to cover all government costs. There could be much room for disagreement on this variable. But this may also explain ATRs larger numbers for number of days worked to pay for government than what the Tax Foundation study suggests. An excerpt from the Tax Foundation study is below: http://taxfoundation.org/prmedianfamily.html For release March 9, 2000 Contact: Bill Ahern, (202) 464-5101 New Study Profiles Total Tax Burden of Median American Family Washington, D.C., March 9, 2000– The total tax burden of a median two-income family dipped below 40 percent in 1998, according to a new study by the Tax Foundation. J.D. Foster, Ph.D., executive director and chief economist of the Tax Foundation, unveiled the new study at a tax policy conference on Capitol Hill. Titled "The Tax Burden of the Median American Family" (No. 96 in the Foundation's Special Report series), the study confirms that even adjusting for inflation, recent prosperity has resulted in higher taxes. The $26,759 total tax burden that a median two-earner family paid in 1998 is the highest ever. Taxes as a Percentage of Median Family Income (The chart is missing. See the link to this study. Ted) Federal, state and local taxes claimed 39.0 percent of a median two-income family’s total income ($68,605), down from 40.9 percent in 1997 and down from the historical high of 41.5 percent in 1996. The median one-income family’s tax burden was 37.6 percent of its 1998 income ($36,579), down from a high of 38.6 percent in 1997 (see column chart). Against a backdrop of steadily rising tax burdens, the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997 reduced federal individual income taxes on the median family so dramatically that federal income taxes as a percentage of total income were about the same in 1998 as they were in 1955. The almost two percent decline in the two-earner family’s total tax burden between 1997 and 1998 can be attributed almost entirely to this legislation. It brought such substantial tax relief to the median family because its new tax credits, the Per-Child Tax Credit and the Hope and Lifetime Learning Education Credits, are especially valuable to the demographic group that the median family falls into. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 22 01:07:52 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:07:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day: ATR BIAS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <031001c34fe5$4b62d820$ca01a8c0@home> Ted writes: > I think ATR (Americans for Tax Reform) provides misleading > figures. I > present data from the Tax Foundation below to support my claim. > > http://www.taxfoundation.org > > See below for an brief analysis of different conclusions than > ATR on percent > of government costs paid out of their income by the "average American > worker" (ATRs wording) based on a brief excerpt from a study > by the Tax > Foundation. Ted, I think the difference occurs because the ATR includes *legislated* requirements that we have to pay for that consumers are not clamoring for. ATR *claims* that Federal and State regulations add another 16.9% to our government overhead. Now, we can debate whether all those regulations are good for us or not; but I don't think that we can dismiss them as not increasing the cost of products we buy. Best, Dale From gdickison@moscow.com Tue Jul 22 03:41:30 2003 From: gdickison@moscow.com (gdickison@moscow.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 02:41:30 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bill London's Letter to the Editor Message-ID: <200307220215.h6M2FmQU015333@whale2.fsr.net> Dear Visionaries: It must have hurt Bill to write even this grudgingly complimentary letter about NSA. I am wondering what it is that NSA did to foment the "distrust, concern, and uncertainty" Bill refers to, or why the college has the burden of "bridging the gap" created by those of a less tolerant bent. At least he didn't see through to the true plot. He must not be familiar with the first maxim of tyrants throughout history: "First the bladder, and then the mind." By the way, Bill: you are wrong about the tax situation. But I will let you look that up. Cheers, Gregory C. Dickison Lawyer & Counselor at Law Post Office Box 8846 312 South Main Street Moscow, Idaho 83843 (208) 882-4009 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill London" To: "letter to editor" ; "murf" Cc: "Vision2020" Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 3:50 PM Subject: [Vision2020] letter to the editor > > During the Moscow Farmers' Market on Saturday, I found and used the > restroom in the student lounge at the New St. Andrews College building > (the former GTE building). > My thanks to the college for providing this very needed public service. > > I hope that providing this public restroom is a step to bridging the gap > between the greater Moscow community and New St. Andrews College and the > political/social organization it represents. > > There is plenty of distrust, concern, and uncertainty in Moscow > regarding the plans and impact of this growing organization and its > ongoing purchase of downtown property. > When educational and religious organizations purchase property and > remove that property from the tax rolls, the other taxpayers have to pay > more to maintain governmental services. In exchange, those educational > and religious organizations are assumed to be doing good works that > benefit the community. > > I hope this is the beginning of efforts to enrich our community and that > the distrust melts into dialog. > > Bill London > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 05:10:04 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 04:10:04 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day: ATR BIAS? Message-ID: Dale, et. al. Yes, of course, I mentioned this "cost of regulation" in my post regarding ATR's figures. You could make all sorts of claims that government regulation of one aspect of life or another drives up the cost of products and services. If slavery was legal, think of how much cheaper products could be built with this very inexpensive labor pool! So we are to include the government ban on slavery as as a "cost of government?" Some might include migrant workers as "slaves," and the government's toleration of illegal aliens as a way of keeping farm labor, and other labor costs, low. I did not see that ATR presented data on what regulations they considered exactly as a "cost of regulation" nor what standards they used to determine which regulation they included or not. You make the assertion the standard is "requirements consumers are not clamoring for." Which just begs the question as to what these are determined by who? You could throw the minimum wage and child labor laws into the equation as government regulation of business that drives up the costs of products and services. The ATR report mentions the new laws regulating cigarettes smoked at various businesses as a cost of regulation, doing financial damage to bars, restaurants, etc. But do they include the savings that may be gained in lowering of health care costs for medical insurance with fewer people becoming sick from tobacco related illnesses? I did not see any such admission in their report (unless I missed it) raising a major question regarding their computations of the real overall cost of this regulation to consumers. And the question of whether or not ATR averaged the high tax rates of the wealthy into their equation to figure the number of days an "average American worker" works in a year to pay their "cost of government" has not been answered. The tax figures given from the Tax Foundation focused on those who are truly "average American workers," median one and two income families. You questioned my assertion that ATR might be biased suggesting I was using "argument ad hominem." I am now wondering if you really understand fully whether or not ATR's figures are misleading or biased. It does not appear you understand fully how ATR arrives at their figures or if their methods are fair and accurate. Ted >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Cost of Government Day: ATR BIAS? >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:07:52 -0700 > >Ted writes: > > I think ATR (Americans for Tax Reform) provides misleading > > figures. I > > present data from the Tax Foundation below to support my claim. > > > > http://www.taxfoundation.org > > > > See below for an brief analysis of different conclusions than > > ATR on percent > > of government costs paid out of their income by the "average American > > worker" (ATRs wording) based on a brief excerpt from a study > > by the Tax > > Foundation. > >Ted, > >I think the difference occurs because the ATR includes *legislated* >requirements that we have to pay for that consumers are not clamoring for. >ATR *claims* that Federal and State regulations add another 16.9% to our >government overhead. > >Now, we can debate whether all those regulations are good for us or not; >but >I don't think that we can dismiss them as not increasing the cost of >products we buy. > >Best, >Dale > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ a _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From davidcb@acm.org Tue Jul 22 05:41:59 2003 From: davidcb@acm.org (David Camden-Britton) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:41:59 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030721214013.02df1288@mail.turbonet.com> At 01:58 PM 7/19/2003 -0700, "Donovan Arnold" <donovanarnold@hotmail.com> wrote:
I agree that soldiers should not whine. And a as a rule, they never do. But I tell you, when I guy has been to war,stays up for 4 days straight in 117 degree weather, is shot at, wounded, and has his buddies die. And he never whines. Then one day he does whine about

Out of curiosity, were any of these soldiers drafted or were they all voluntary inductees?  Seems they picked a heck of a time to enlist.

David Camden-Britton -=)*(=-  davidcb@acm.org From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Tue Jul 22 05:50:36 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:50:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Death toll now reaches over 150 since war declared over References: Message-ID: <007b01c3500c$e239e320$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Mr. Parks: > Sure, this doesn't get much coverage on the evening news, but ~1,200 > people will still die today. Far more than that, counting abortions. All the Best, Luke Nieuwsma From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jul 22 14:01:43 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 06:01:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030721214013.02df1288@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01C35016.B9DEB9F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The draft went out a long, long time ago. The armed forces consists of volunteer enlistees now. Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of David Camden-Britton Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 9:42 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Please Help our dying troops! At 01:58 PM 7/19/2003 -0700, "Donovan Arnold" wrote: I agree that soldiers should not whine. And a as a rule, they never do. But I tell you, when I guy has been to war,stays up for 4 days straight in 117 degree weather, is shot at, wounded, and has his buddies die. And he never whines. Then one day he does whine about Out of curiosity, were any of these soldiers drafted or were they all voluntary inductees? Seems they picked a heck of a time to enlist. David Camden-Britton -=)*(=- davidcb@acm.org _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01C35016.B9DEB9F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The = draft went=20 out a long, long time ago.  The armed forces consists of volunteer=20 enlistees now.
 
Tom = Hansen
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of David=20 Camden-Britton
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 9:42 = PM
To:=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Please Help = our=20 dying troops!

At 01:58 PM 7/19/2003 -0700, = "Donovan=20 Arnold" <donovanarnold@hotmail.com> wrote:
I agree that soldiers = should not=20 whine. And a as a rule, they never do. But I tell you, when I guy = has been=20 to war,stays up for 4 days straight in 117 degree weather, is shot = at,=20 wounded, and has his buddies die. And he never whines. Then one day = he does=20 whine about

Out of curiosity, were any of these = soldiers=20 drafted or were they all voluntary inductees?  Seems they picked = a heck=20 of a time to enlist.

David Camden-Britton = -=3D)*(=3D-  davidcb@acm.org=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since=20 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////=20

------=_NextPart_000_009E_01C35016.B9DEB9F0-- From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 22 15:47:21 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 07:47:21 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] IBM sees need to shift jobs overseas: Firm seen moving workforce to India, elsewhere Message-ID: <000801c35060$2b73fcd0$c801a8c0@MoscowHome1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C35025.7BB41F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IBM sees need to shift jobs overseas=20 Reuters=20 Two senior officials at IBM, the world's largest computer maker, said = the company needs to speed its efforts to move white-collar jobs to = India and elsewhere overseas, The New York Times reported on Tuesday. IN A RECORDING of a conference call given to The New York Times by a = labor union, top employee relations executives said IBM needed to make = the same moves its competitors made to save money by shifting service = jobs away from the United States.=20 The article cited Forrester Research as estimating 450,000 U.S. computer = industry jobs could be transferred overseas in the next 12 years, = representing eight percent of U.S. computer jobs.=20 Executives worried on the March IBM conference call that broader = unionization could arise as the trend strengthens, The Times said.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C35025.7BB41F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IBM sees need to = shift jobs=20 overseas=20

Reuters=20

Two senior officials at IBM, the world's largest = computer maker,=20 said the company needs to speed its efforts to move white-collar jobs to = India=20 and elsewhere overseas, The New York Times reported on=20 Tuesday.

IN A RECORDING of a conference call given to = The New=20 York Times by a labor union, top employee relations executives said IBM = needed=20 to make the same moves its competitors made to save money by shifting = service=20 jobs away from the United States.=20

The article cited Forrester Research as estimating 450,000 U.S. = computer=20 industry jobs could be transferred overseas in the next 12 years, = representing=20 eight percent of U.S. computer jobs.=20

Executives worried on the March IBM conference call that broader = unionization=20 could arise as the trend strengthens, The Times said. =

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C35025.7BB41F80-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 18:04:07 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bill London's Letter to the Editor In-Reply-To: <200307220215.h6M2FmQU015333@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <20030722170407.85140.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1687695342-1058893447=:83194 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii who is this guy, dickinson? he sounds like another doug wilson clone, style and everything! GO FOR IT BILL LONDON!! KNOCK THAT CULT DOWN!! gdickison@moscow.com wrote:Dear Visionaries: It must have hurt Bill to write even this grudgingly complimentary letter about NSA. I am wondering what it is that NSA did to foment the "distrust, concern, and uncertainty" Bill refers to, or why the college has the burden of "bridging the gap" created by those of a less tolerant bent. At least he didn't see through to the true plot. He must not be familiar with the first maxim of tyrants throughout history: "First the bladder, and then the mind." By the way, Bill: you are wrong about the tax situation. But I will let you look that up. Cheers, Gregory C. Dickison Lawyer & Counselor at Law Post Office Box 8846 312 South Main Street Moscow, Idaho 83843 (208) 882-4009 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill London" To: "letter to editor" ; "murf" Cc: "Vision2020" Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 3:50 PM Subject: [Vision2020] letter to the editor > > During the Moscow Farmers' Market on Saturday, I found and used the > restroom in the student lounge at the New St. Andrews College building > (the former GTE building). > My thanks to the college for providing this very needed public service. > > I hope that providing this public restroom is a step to bridging the gap > between the greater Moscow community and New St. Andrews College and the > political/social organization it represents. > > There is plenty of distrust, concern, and uncertainty in Moscow > regarding the plans and impact of this growing organization and its > ongoing purchase of downtown property. > When educational and religious organizations purchase property and > remove that property from the tax rolls, the other taxpayers have to pay > more to maintain governmental services. In exchange, those educational > and religious organizations are assumed to be doing good works that > benefit the community. > > I hope this is the beginning of efforts to enrich our community and that > the distrust melts into dialog. > > Bill London > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1687695342-1058893447=:83194 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
who is this guy, dickinson?  he sounds like another doug wilson clone, style and everything!  GO FOR IT BILL LONDON!! KNOCK THAT CULT DOWN!!

gdickison@moscow.com wrote:
Dear Visionaries:

It must have hurt Bill to write even this grudgingly complimentary letter
about NSA. I am wondering what it is that NSA did to foment the "distrust,
concern, and uncertainty" Bill refers to, or why the college has the burden
of "bridging the gap" created by those of a less tolerant bent.

At least he didn't see through to the true plot. He must not be familiar
with the first maxim of tyrants throughout history: "First the bladder, and
then the mind."

By the way, Bill: you are wrong about the tax situation. But I will let you
look that up.

Cheers,

Gregory C. Dickison
Lawyer & Counselor at Law
Post Office Box 8846
312 South Main Street
Moscow, Idaho 83843
(208) 882-4009

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill London"
To: "letter to editor" ; "murf"
Cc: "Vision2020"
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 3:50 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] letter to the editor


>
> During the Moscow Farmers' Market on Saturday, I found and used the
> restroom in the student lounge at the New St. Andrews College building
> (the former GTE building).
> My thanks to the college for providing this very needed public service.
>
> I hope that providing this public restroom is a step to bridging the gap
> between the greater Moscow community and New St. Andrews College and the
> political/social organization it represents.
>
> There is plenty of distrust, concern, and uncertainty in Moscow
> regarding the plans and impact of this growing organization and its
> ongoing purchase of downtown property.
> When educational and religious organizations purchase property and
> remove that property from the tax rolls,! the other taxpayers have to pay
> more to maintain governmental services. In exchange, those educational
> and religious organizations are assumed to be doing good works that
> benefit the community.
>
> I hope this is the beginning of efforts to enrich our community and that
> the distrust melts into dialog.
>
> Bill London
>
> _____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>


---------------------------------------------
This message was sent by First Step Internet.
http://www.fsr.net/


_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse ! since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1687695342-1058893447=:83194-- From Smectymnus@earthlink.net Tue Jul 22 18:25:35 2003 From: Smectymnus@earthlink.net (Thomas Bartnick) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:25:35 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Code Message-ID: <3F1D738F.2000001@earthlink.net> My Fellow Visionaries: Gregory Dickison wrote, "By the way, Bill: you are wrong about the tax situation. But I will let you look that up." Perhaps Mr. Dickison would instruct us on tax codes as they apply to a church's use of 501(c)(3) funds to payoff illegal gambling debts. Thomas From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 18:46:17 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:46:17 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] This is so not important.. Message-ID: But it may be of mild interest to those of us who were rockin' and rollin' in the 1960s. If you were, and you remember the great underground group The Fugs, they have a new CD out. The Spokesman had an article about them over the weekend. As further proof that the 60s are slipping further away in the rear view mirror, the lead singer on the new CD, who was one of the founding members of the band in 1965, is now 79 years old....Hey, I told you this wasn't important. Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dougwils@moscow.com Tue Jul 22 19:09:35 2003 From: dougwils@moscow.com (Douglas) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:09:35 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Code In-Reply-To: <3F1D738F.2000001@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030722110531.01c0d960@mail.moscow.com> Dear visionaries, Gee, that sounds terrible. If it ever happens, I think Mr. Dickison *should* look it up. And right away! In the meantime, lots of people can breathe easier, because moralistic posturing is still perfectly legal, as William Bennett could tell us. Cordially, Douglas Wilson At 10:25 AM 7/22/2003 -0700, you wrote: > My Fellow Visionaries: > >Gregory Dickison wrote, "By the way, Bill: you are wrong about the tax >situation. But I will let you look that up." > >Perhaps Mr. Dickison would instruct us on tax codes as they apply to a >church's use of 501(c)(3) funds to payoff illegal gambling debts. > >Thomas > > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From dunadhaigh@hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 19:46:03 2003 From: dunadhaigh@hotmail.com (Jeremy Downey) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:46:03 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Code Message-ID:

Christ Church is not incorporated as a tax-free organization, as can be read here.

Jeremy Downey

>From: Thomas Bartnick
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Code
>Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:25:35 -0700
>
> My Fellow Visionaries:
>
>Gregory Dickison wrote, "By the way, Bill: you are wrong about the
>tax situation. But I will let you look that up."
>
>Perhaps Mr. Dickison would instruct us on tax codes as they apply to
>a church's use of 501(c)(3) funds to payoff illegal gambling debts.
>
>Thomas
>
>
>_____________________________________________________
>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
>communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>http://www.fsr.net
>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From gdickison@moscow.com Tue Jul 22 19:59:24 2003 From: gdickison@moscow.com (Gregory Dickison) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:59:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Code References: <3F1D738F.2000001@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002b01c35083$5e2ab1a0$6501a8c0@wireless.fsr.net> Dear Visionaries: Mr. Bartnick follows a formula seen too often on this forum: repeat a rumour or false allegation to the masses, then demand that the accused explain it. Looks like he went to the John Ashcroft School of Prosecution. Cheers, Gregory C. Dickison Lawyer & Counselor at Law Post Office Box 8846 312 South Main Street Moscow, Idaho 83843 (208) 882-4009 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Bartnick" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:25 AM Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Code > My Fellow Visionaries: > > Gregory Dickison wrote, "By the way, Bill: you are wrong about the tax > situation. But I will let you look that up." > > Perhaps Mr. Dickison would instruct us on tax codes as they apply to a > church's use of 501(c)(3) funds to payoff illegal gambling debts. > > Thomas > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From jdanahy@turbonet.com Tue Jul 22 20:42:35 2003 From: jdanahy@turbonet.com (John Danahy) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:42:35 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] water rationing?? Message-ID: <000001c35089$697cbcf0$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3504E.BD1DE4F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been out of town for several weeks, what's up with the volunteer water ban?? Is it working? John ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3504E.BD1DE4F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I’ve been out of town for several weeks, = what’s up with the volunteer water ban??  Is it working?

John

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3504E.BD1DE4F0-- From DonaldH675@aol.com Tue Jul 22 21:16:11 2003 From: DonaldH675@aol.com (DonaldH675@aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:16:11 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Code Message-ID: <62.3291c7fc.2c4ef58b@aol.com> --part1_62.3291c7fc.2c4ef58b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Visionaries, I am confused, and since somewhere I might have raised the allegation or spread the rumor myself - although tax stuff is way out of my league - perhaps Greg can help us understand what is being said about the tax status of Christ Church. Is Christ Church and its auxiliary schools, Canon Press, etc., provided a tax shelter as a religious group - or, as I think I am reading - has Christ Church, the auxiliary schools and publishing business refused to claim a religious exemption from taxes? If that is the case, perhaps they are setting a good example for the other churches in this community. Rose Huskey --part1_62.3291c7fc.2c4ef58b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Visionaries,
I am confused, and since somewhere I might have raised the allegation or spr= ead the rumor myself - although tax stuff is way out of my league - perhaps=20= Greg can help us understand what is being said about the tax status of Chris= t Church.  Is Christ Church and its auxiliary schools, Canon Press, etc= ., provided a tax shelter as a religious group - or, as I think I am reading= - has Christ Church, the auxiliary schools and publishing business refused=20= to claim a religious exemption from taxes? If that is the case, perhaps they= are setting a good example for the other churches in this community. =20=
Rose Huskey --part1_62.3291c7fc.2c4ef58b_boundary-- From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Tue Jul 22 21:26:22 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:26:22 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Code Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FED@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Greetings Visionaires - According to http://www.christkirk.com/Literature/Constitution.html#Art7, Christ Church is not tax-exempt and is therefor required to pay taxes. It should also be noted in the above link that they (Christ Church) " . . . accepts the various burdens and entanglements of civil regulation and taxation under protest." It is my impression that the reason Christ Church is paying taxes is not because they are "community conscious", they simply do not meet the requirements for a tax exemption. So, until they do become tax exempt they will just have to pay taxes like the rest of us. Doing my part, Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: DonaldH675@aol.com [mailto:DonaldH675@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:16 PM To: gdickison@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tax Code Dear Visionaries, I am confused, and since somewhere I might have raised the allegation or spread the rumor myself - although tax stuff is way out of my league - perhaps Greg can help us understand what is being said about the tax status of Christ Church. Is Christ Church and its auxiliary schools, Canon Press, etc., provided a tax shelter as a religious group - or, as I think I am reading - has Christ Church, the auxiliary schools and publishing business refused to claim a religious exemption from taxes? If that is the case, perhaps they are setting a good example for the other churches in this community. Rose Huskey From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 21:33:35 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Code In-Reply-To: <002b01c35083$5e2ab1a0$6501a8c0@wireless.fsr.net> Message-ID: <20030722203335.74272.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> --0-351875672-1058906015=:73951 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii gregory is a liar! Gregory Dickison wrote:Dear Visionaries: Mr. Bartnick follows a formula seen too often on this forum: repeat a rumour or false allegation to the masses, then demand that the accused explain it. Looks like he went to the John Ashcroft School of Prosecution. Cheers, Gregory C. Dickison Lawyer & Counselor at Law Post Office Box 8846 312 South Main Street Moscow, Idaho 83843 (208) 882-4009 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Bartnick" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:25 AM Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Code > My Fellow Visionaries: > > Gregory Dickison wrote, "By the way, Bill: you are wrong about the tax > situation. But I will let you look that up." > > Perhaps Mr. Dickison would instruct us on tax codes as they apply to a > church's use of 501(c)(3) funds to payoff illegal gambling debts. > > Thomas > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-351875672-1058906015=:73951 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
gregory is a liar!

Gregory Dickison <gdickison@moscow.com> wrote:
Dear Visionaries:

Mr. Bartnick follows a formula seen too often on this forum: repeat a rumour
or false allegation to the masses, then demand that the accused explain it.
Looks like he went to the John Ashcroft School of Prosecution.

Cheers,

Gregory C. Dickison
Lawyer & Counselor at Law
Post Office Box 8846
312 South Main Street
Moscow, Idaho 83843
(208) 882-4009

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Bartnick"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:25 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Code


> My Fellow Visionaries:
>
> Gregory Dickison wrote, "By the way, Bill: you are wrong about the tax
> situation. But I will let you look that up."
>
> Perhaps Mr. Dickison would instruct us on tax codes as they apply to a
> church! 's use of 501(c)(3) funds to payoff illegal gambling debts.
>
> Thomas
>
>
> _____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>

_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-351875672-1058906015=:73951-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 21:46:32 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:46:32 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, elsewhere Message-ID: April, 2020. Legislation legalizing a 60 hour work week with no overtime for assembly line manufacturing jobs at a 75 cents an hour minimum wage passed the US Congress this week. "It's the only way US workers can stay competitive," said an anonymous business executive with a 7 figure salary. "If we want to keep our workforce employed, we must evolve to adapt to the realities of the global marketplace. There are hundreds of millions of willing workers overseas who accept these conditions and pay. American workers need to quit whining and face reality!" Ted >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: [Vision2020] IBM sees need to shift jobs overseas: Firm seen >moving workforce to India, elsewhere >Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 07:47:21 -0700 > >IBM sees need to shift jobs overseas >Reuters > > >Two senior officials at IBM, the world's largest computer maker, said the >company needs to speed its efforts to move white-collar jobs to India and >elsewhere overseas, The New York Times reported on Tuesday. > >IN A RECORDING of a conference call given to The New York Times by a labor >union, top employee relations executives said IBM needed to make the same >moves its competitors made to save money by shifting service jobs away from >the United States. >The article cited Forrester Research as estimating 450,000 U.S. computer >industry jobs could be transferred overseas in the next 12 years, >representing eight percent of U.S. computer jobs. > >Executives worried on the March IBM conference call that broader >unionization could arise as the trend strengthens, The Times said. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Tue Jul 22 21:52:40 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:52:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, els ewhere Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FEF@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Why stop there, Mr. Moffett? Why don't we simply dissolve all unions, amend the US Constitution making it illegal for workers to organize, and work for whatever pennies "corporate" America is willing to part with? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: Ted Moffett [mailto:ted_moffett@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:47 PM To: dale@courtneys.us Cc: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, elsewhere April, 2020. Legislation legalizing a 60 hour work week with no overtime for assembly line manufacturing jobs at a 75 cents an hour minimum wage passed the US Congress this week. "It's the only way US workers can stay competitive," said an anonymous business executive with a 7 figure salary. "If we want to keep our workforce employed, we must evolve to adapt to the realities of the global marketplace. There are hundreds of millions of willing workers overseas who accept these conditions and pay. American workers need to quit whining and face reality!" Ted >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: [Vision2020] IBM sees need to shift jobs overseas: Firm seen >moving workforce to India, elsewhere >Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 07:47:21 -0700 > >IBM sees need to shift jobs overseas >Reuters > > >Two senior officials at IBM, the world's largest computer maker, said the >company needs to speed its efforts to move white-collar jobs to India and >elsewhere overseas, The New York Times reported on Tuesday. > >IN A RECORDING of a conference call given to The New York Times by a labor >union, top employee relations executives said IBM needed to make the same >moves its competitors made to save money by shifting service jobs away from >the United States. >The article cited Forrester Research as estimating 450,000 U.S. computer >industry jobs could be transferred overseas in the next 12 years, >representing eight percent of U.S. computer jobs. > >Executives worried on the March IBM conference call that broader >unionization could arise as the trend strengthens, The Times said. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 22:29:39 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 21:29:39 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] This is so not important.. Message-ID: Carl, and other Fugs devotes: I believe Ed Sanders (someone correct me if I am wrong) was the brain child of the Fugs, which was more of a protest poetry art performance group, than a "musical" group, depending one ones definition of "music." They were never mainstream in the 60s, in part because they used profanities. But I disagree that the 60s are in the rearview mirror. The revolt of that time is alive and well and with us as we speak. Artists like the Fugs, who were censored in the extreme in the 60s due to questionable content, now have a much wider and more accepting audience. For better or worse, free expression is more "free" now than it was then. Businesses that profit off pornography now are out in the open, for example, when in the 60s they would have ended up in court. Speaking of censorship, the original censored album cover to the one "Blind Faith" album, that super group with Eric Clapton, Steve Winwood and Ginger Baker, is now out on display in stores right here in Moscow, the same cover that was banned when it came out during the 60s era. It features a "topless" female. Time for the Moscow City Council to go to work to protect us! The 1960s really were a conservative time. Ted >From: "Carl Westberg" >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] This is so not important.. >Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:46:17 -0700 > >But it may be of mild interest to those of us who were rockin' and rollin' >in the 1960s. If you were, and you remember the great underground group >The Fugs, they have a new CD out. The Spokesman had an article about them >over the weekend. As further proof that the 60s are slipping further away >in the rear view mirror, the lead singer on the new CD, who was one of the >founding members of the band in 1965, is now 79 years old....Hey, I told >you this wasn't important. > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From bradneuman@moscow.com Tue Jul 22 22:57:14 2003 From: bradneuman@moscow.com (Brad Neuman) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:57:14 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Something you can do that will definitely make an impact. Message-ID: <00b101c3509c$3a0481c0$6401a8c0@DEN> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C35061.8DA5A9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vision2020'ers: =20 If you would like to do something positive, there is an area where you = can make a very large difference not far from your home. The Food Bank in = Troy, Idaho is running very low on food. We do have some USDA commodities, = but we are limited as to the amount we can distribute to each family and furthermore are limited to one distribution per month for family. =20 The Food Bank has patiently been waiting for the tax cut advantages to trickle down to us and grow our inventories so that we can help the = people of Troy, Deary, Kendrick, Nora and Moscow.* As of yet we have not seen = a drip, let alone a trickle. The Food Bank has green beans and corn on = hand, but would really appreciate things like soups, tuna, flower, sugar, = canned fruit etc. Of course we can always use cash donations (checks would be = also appreciated). The Food Bank can be one of the most cost conscious = shoppers around and through arrangements with local food distributors can greatly stretch your contribution dollar. =20 If you want to get together and do a food drive at you school, church, neighborhood or community group, please contact me and I will be glad to arrange for the food to be picked up and delivered to the food bank. There are also collection baskets at the Moscow Chamber of Commerce = Building at 411 S. Main and at Jimmy G's Motorsports at the corner of Veach and = the Troy Highway (Route 9). =20 Finally, this is not an official request from the Food Bank people, this = is a personal request from me, a volunteer who does food distribution at = the food bank and is very aware of the empty shelves. =20 =20 Thank you, Brad Neuman Troy, ID =20 * Yes, we do get in some people from Moscow, there are people that are ashamed that they have to go to a food bank and would rather travel to a place where they won't be seen and their neighbors won't know. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C35061.8DA5A9C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Vision2020’ers:=

 

If you would like to do = something positive, there is an area where you can make a very large difference = not far from your home.  The Food Bank in Troy, = Idaho is running very low on food.  We do have some USDA commodities, but we are = limited as to the amount we can distribute to each family and furthermore are = limited to one distribution per month for family.

 

The Food Bank has patiently = been waiting for the tax cut advantages to trickle down to us and grow our inventories so that we can help the people of Troy, Deary, Kendrick, = Nora and Moscow.*  As of yet we have not seen a drip, let alone a = trickle.  The Food Bank has green beans and corn on hand, but would really = appreciate things like soups, tuna, flower, sugar, canned fruit etc.  Of = course we can always use cash donations (checks would be also appreciated). =  The Food Bank can be one of the most cost conscious shoppers around and = through arrangements with local food distributors can greatly stretch your = contribution dollar.

 

If you want to get together = and do a food drive at you school, church, neighborhood or community group, = please contact me and I will be glad to arrange for the food to be picked up = and delivered to the food bank.    There are also collection = baskets at the Moscow Chamber of Commerce Building at 411 S. Main and at Jimmy = G’s Motorsports at the corner of Veach and the Troy = Highway (Route = 9).

 

Finally, this is not an = official request from the Food Bank people, this is a personal request from me, a volunteer who does food distribution at the food bank and is very aware = of the empty shelves. 

 

Thank = you,

Brad = Neuman

Troy, = ID

 

* Yes, we do get in some = people from Moscow, there are people that are ashamed that = they have to go to a food bank and would rather travel to a place where they won’t be seen and their neighbors won’t = know.

 

------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C35061.8DA5A9C0-- From jsullivan@moscow.com Tue Jul 22 23:31:16 2003 From: jsullivan@moscow.com (JSullivan) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:31:16 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Something you can do that will definitely make an impact. References: <00b101c3509c$3a0481c0$6401a8c0@DEN> Message-ID: <002901c350a0$f7546ac0$edf2f5c7@Janestas> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C35066.4A59C7F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do you accept fresh produce? If so, what day is the best to donate? Janesta Sullivan ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Brad Neuman=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 2:57 PM Subject: [Vision2020] Something you can do that will definitely make = an impact. Vision2020'ers: If you would like to do something positive, there is an area where you = can make a very large difference not far from your home. The Food Bank = in Troy, Idaho is running very low on food. We do have some USDA = commodities, but we are limited as to the amount we can distribute to = each family and furthermore are limited to one distribution per month = for family. The Food Bank has patiently been waiting for the tax cut advantages to = trickle down to us and grow our inventories so that we can help the = people of Troy, Deary, Kendrick, Nora and Moscow.* As of yet we have = not seen a drip, let alone a trickle. The Food Bank has green beans and = corn on hand, but would really appreciate things like soups, tuna, = flower, sugar, canned fruit etc. Of course we can always use cash = donations (checks would be also appreciated). The Food Bank can be one = of the most cost conscious shoppers around and through arrangements with = local food distributors can greatly stretch your contribution dollar. If you want to get together and do a food drive at you school, church, = neighborhood or community group, please contact me and I will be glad to = arrange for the food to be picked up and delivered to the food bank. = There are also collection baskets at the Moscow Chamber of Commerce = Building at 411 S. Main and at Jimmy G's Motorsports at the corner of = Veach and the Troy Highway (Route 9). Finally, this is not an official request from the Food Bank people, = this is a personal request from me, a volunteer who does food = distribution at the food bank and is very aware of the empty shelves. =20 Thank you, Brad Neuman Troy, ID * Yes, we do get in some people from Moscow, there are people that are = ashamed that they have to go to a food bank and would rather travel to a = place where they won't be seen and their neighbors won't know. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C35066.4A59C7F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Do you accept fresh produce? If so, = what day is the=20 best to donate?
 
Janesta Sullivan
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Brad=20 Neuman
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 = 2:57=20 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Something = you can=20 do that will definitely make an impact.

Vision2020=92ers:

 

If you would like to do = something=20 positive, there is an area where you can make a very large difference = not far=20 from your home.  The Food Bank in Troy, = Idaho is=20 running very low on food.  We do have some USDA commodities, but = we are=20 limited as to the amount we can distribute to each family and = furthermore are=20 limited to one distribution per month for family.

 

The Food Bank has = patiently been=20 waiting for the tax cut advantages to trickle down to us and grow our=20 inventories so that we can help the people of Troy, Deary, Kendrick, = Nora and=20 Moscow.*  As of yet we have not seen a drip, let alone a = trickle. =20 The Food Bank has green beans and corn on hand, but would really = appreciate=20 things like soups, tuna, flower, sugar, canned fruit etc.  Of = course we=20 can always use cash donations (checks would be also appreciated). =  The=20 Food Bank can be one of the most cost conscious shoppers around and = through=20 arrangements with local food distributors can greatly stretch your=20 contribution dollar.

 

If you want to get = together and do=20 a food drive at you school, church, neighborhood or community group, = please=20 contact me and I will be glad to arrange for the food to be picked up = and=20 delivered to the food bank.    There are also = collection=20 baskets at the Moscow Chamber of Commerce Building at 411 S. Main and = at Jimmy=20 G=92s Motorsports at the corner of Veach and the Troy=20 Highway (Route = 9).

 

Finally, this is not an = official=20 request from the Food Bank people, this is a personal request from me, = a=20 volunteer who does food distribution at the food bank and is very = aware of the=20 empty shelves. 

 

Thank = you,

Brad = Neuman

Troy, = ID

 

* Yes, we do get in some = people=20 from Moscow, there are people = that are=20 ashamed that they have to go to a food bank and would rather travel to = a place=20 where they won=92t be seen and their neighbors won=92t = know.

 

------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C35066.4A59C7F0-- From dougwils@moscow.com Tue Jul 22 23:50:34 2003 From: dougwils@moscow.com (Douglas) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:50:34 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Codes Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030722154511.01c45710@mail.moscow.com> Visionaries, The motto ought not to be "ready, fire, aim!" My suggestion is that we ask Vera or Bill to run this down for us. We don't want to lend credence to a method that circulates erroneous information first, and then requires the misrepresented entities to put it all right. Let's ask those who want to present their concerns to the public to get the facts straight first. Cordially, Douglas From gburton@sltrib.com Wed Jul 23 00:26:27 2003 From: gburton@sltrib.com (Greg Burton) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:26:27 -0600 Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Codes References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030722154511.01c45710@mail.moscow.com> Message-ID: <3F1DC822.DDEE9EBF@sltrib.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------79D52A703E5CE0C21F7112DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks, a good reporter — even a bad, but diligent one — can find information on 501C3s. This is public information. I did a quick search to speed this debate along and found 144 such tax-situated groups, including the Ren Fair, Appaloosa Museum, Kenworthy, something called Association of Computing Machinery and many churches and civic associations, some of which may be Christ Church-affiliated. Many likely not. Malfeasance is not a requirement for this sort of tax filing — there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of such organizations in America. There is a story here, somewhere, but context is the key. The only obvious Christ Church affiliation I found was Logos. Note, I only searched Moscow, Idaho. Incorporation, though, could be anywhere in the United States, which would require more search time. Here is the basic information I culled, cheers, greg burton Faith Ministries, Inc. aka Logos School 110 Baker St Moscow, ID 83843 Logos School is a K-12, nondenominational, Christian Classical school providing national leadership and service in the field of classical education to other schools and home schools. EIN: 82-0361222 This organization is not required to file an annual return with the IRS because it is a church. It is a 501(c)(03) public charity. Information in this report was supplied by the nonprofit organization within the last two years. Financial snapshot for fiscal year ending 2002 Revenue: $1,322,185 Expenses: $1,272,961 Assets: $1,002,999 Liabilities: $415,973 Douglas wrote: > Visionaries, > > The motto ought not to be "ready, fire, aim!" My suggestion is that we ask > Vera or Bill to run this down for us. We don't want to lend credence to a > method that circulates erroneous information first, and then requires the > misrepresented entities to put it all right. Let's ask those who want to > present their concerns to the public to get the facts straight first. > > Cordially, > > Douglas > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------79D52A703E5CE0C21F7112DE Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="gburton.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Greg Burton Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="gburton.vcf" begin:vcard n:Burton;Greg tel;cell:(801) 918-8097 tel;fax:(801) 257-8525 tel;work:(801) 257-8789 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:www.sltrib.com org:The Salt Lake Tribune;Environment & Adventure Desk adr:;;143 S. Main Street;Salt Lake City;Utah;84111;United States version:2.1 email;internet:gburton@sltrib.com title:News Editor x-mozilla-cpt:;3 fn:Greg Burton end:vcard --------------79D52A703E5CE0C21F7112DE-- From Smectymnus@earthlink.net Wed Jul 23 00:55:07 2003 From: Smectymnus@earthlink.net (Thomas Bartnick) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:55:07 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Code Message-ID: <3F1DCEDB.4060406@earthlink.net> Visionaries, When you throw a rock at a pigpen, you can tell which pig you hit by the one who squeals the loudest. Wilson and Dickison squealed so loud that it sounded like the lovemaking scene in the movie "Deliverance." But all this chatter about love and pigs misses the point. The question that Wilson and Dickison did not answer is this: Did Christ Church use church money to cover gambling debts? Thomas From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Wed Jul 23 00:51:24 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:51:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <02df01c350ad$9db624b0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Hello, Mr. Moffett, et omni: > > Ted answers: > Yet many fundamentalist Christians insist that the > commandment against killing is really only meant for those cold blooded > murderers who kill senselessly, it is a commandment against "murder," but if > you kill to punish or gain righteous compensation for a hideous crime (let's > forget for a moment that flawed and limited human mind which has sent many > to death row, death row inmates who were later released from prison by the > dozens after they were shown to be innocent), you have God's blessing. > > You will dodge this very real and controversial division within Christianity > about the death penalty, which demonstrates with startling clarity the > relativistic and flawed interpretations of the Bible which Christian's argue > over: both interpretations cannot be right, can they? So there are millions > of Christians who are wrongly interpreting the Bible on the issue, either > the whole Catholic Church, or other groups of Christians who number in the > millions who believe staunchly in the death penalty. I do believe in the death penalty, and I don't dodge the fact that there is controversy over this topic throughout our nation. But the death penalty is a side issue; we would not need it if the ten commandments were followed from the beginning. It is not the law of God that leads to confusion; it is man's sinfulness, and in many cases his refusal to follow God's law that bring about the controversies. (To briefly address the issue, OT law lays clear principles that Christ upheld in His ministry, and though not all OT laws carry through today, those principles behind them still do. And one of them is that if you take something unlawfully, the same will be required of you. And if I killed your wife, or your mother, you would very quickly become a proponent of the D penalty, regardless of prior beliefs.) I will agree that man by himself cannot obey God's law. That's why He sends the saints the Holy Spirit. There still is debate and argument, but a disagreement over the death penalty is not going to put you in hell. Denying it does not amount to heresy; you can believe the basic gospel and still be wrong about a side issue. I know that there are many areas of secondary doctrine that I don't fully understand, but the basic gospel is clear, and so are the 10 commandments. Don't get flustered over the death penalty; rather, simply don't murder. To boil down the rest of your arguments, it seems quite clear that you are an empiricist, and you don't believe in anything that you cannot prove under the microscope. That doesn't sound very tolerant to me, Mr. Moffet. There are many things which we know exist that you cannot get a scientific handle on. Life, for one. When an organism is alive, there is energy intake and energy output, but when it dies, for some reason all that stops. Why? What is it that keeps you alive? Science cannot answer that question. Where does love come from? You cannot chemically analyze kindness; you cannot dissect rudeness and attribute it to certain nerves in your body. Or what about music? Here you have an ordered structure of things vibrating. Things buzzing. Scientifically, empirically, music shouldn't exist. Simple sound waves somehow fit into a coherent framework from horsehair rubbing on strings, and you get Bach. Things smash into each other in some strange consistency called rhythm, and out comes CCR. Why? Science alone cannot explain any of these things. My point in all this is somewhat obscure, so let me clarify. Empiricism goes nowhere. Science proves nothing, it only gives evidence. Humans have to make the conclusions, and these conclusions are based on the supposedly flawed and imperfect minds you keep claiming we have. And even then, science and empirical evidence cannot conceive many things. And science cannot give us the answer to morality, for science is constantly changing. Old theories are ever being replaced by the new. If you try to base your religion on the words and claims of the scientists, you're building a house without a foundation. Christiants have a solid foundation, God's word. At the heart of it, the 10 commandments. And though you might point to semi-relevant rabbit trails, the confusion isn't over the 10 Words, but over particular applications. Your attempt to confuse them and replace them with empiricism has failed, I am afraid. Sincerely and respectfully, Luke Nieuwsma From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jul 23 01:17:57 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:17:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, elsewhere Message-ID: What the *&^%? Can somebody explain how someone can afford to buy the products we make if they are only paid .75 cents an hour? This is joke isn't it Ted? Donovan J Arnold >From: Thomas Hansen >To: "'Ted Moffett'" , dale@courtneys.us >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, >elsewhere >Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:52:40 -0700 > >Why stop there, Mr. Moffett? Why don't we simply dissolve all unions, >amend >the US Constitution making it illegal for workers to organize, and work for >whatever pennies "corporate" America is willing to part with? > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ted Moffett [mailto:ted_moffett@hotmail.com] >Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:47 PM >To: dale@courtneys.us >Cc: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, >elsewhere > > > >April, 2020. > >Legislation legalizing a 60 hour work week with no overtime for assembly >line manufacturing jobs at a 75 cents an hour minimum wage passed the US >Congress this week. > >"It's the only way US workers can stay competitive," said an anonymous >business executive with a 7 figure salary. "If we want to keep our >workforce employed, we must evolve to adapt to the realities of the global >marketplace. There are hundreds of millions of willing workers overseas >who > >accept these conditions and pay. American workers need to quit whining and >face reality!" > >Ted > > > >From: "Dale Courtney" > >To: > >Subject: [Vision2020] IBM sees need to shift jobs overseas: Firm seen > >moving workforce to India, elsewhere > >Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 07:47:21 -0700 > > > >IBM sees need to shift jobs overseas > >Reuters > > > > > >Two senior officials at IBM, the world's largest computer maker, said the > >company needs to speed its efforts to move white-collar jobs to India and > >elsewhere overseas, The New York Times reported on Tuesday. > > > >IN A RECORDING of a conference call given to The New York Times by a >labor > >union, top employee relations executives said IBM needed to make the same > >moves its competitors made to save money by shifting service jobs away >from > > >the United States. > >The article cited Forrester Research as estimating 450,000 U.S. computer > >industry jobs could be transferred overseas in the next 12 years, > >representing eight percent of U.S. computer jobs. > > > >Executives worried on the March IBM conference call that broader > >unionization could arise as the trend strengthens, The Times said. > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From credenda@moscow.com Tue Jul 22 22:18:46 2003 From: credenda@moscow.com (Doug Jones) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:18:46 -0400 Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Code In-Reply-To: <3F1DCEDB.4060406@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000301c35096$d6d7f6e0$880aa8c0@credenda.org> "Thomas Bartnick" said: > But all this chatter about love and pigs misses the point. The question > that Wilson and Dickison did not answer is this: Did Christ Church use > church money to cover gambling debts? Christ Church has addressed this slander publicly and in print several times now. Why should we do your homework anymore? And while you're at it, why don't you tell us all why you're using a fake name? Or is truth, as usual, not the real issue? Off to see the Mariners, Doug Jones From london@moscow.com Wed Jul 23 01:40:38 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:40:38 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Codes References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030722154511.01c45710@mail.moscow.com> Message-ID: <3F1DD985.508DAE3B@moscow.com> Both Doug Wilson and Greg Dickison responded to my V2020 posting about the property tax exemption provided by this community to the buildings owned by Christ Church and New St. Andrews College. Both Wilson and Dickison (relevant parts of their posts are reprinted below) clearly implied that I was wrong. Their posts are written in a seemingly-clever way to make their meaning come through without stating anything directly, but it sure seems to me they were denying that their organizations took advantage of a property tax exemption in Moscow. So I called the Latah County Assessor's Office (882-8580) and asked. The answer: both Christ Church and New St. Andrews College are taking significant property tax exemptions. Here is what I was told by the assessor's office personnel: Christ Church owns the Anselm House at 5th and Washington in Moscow (actually 504 South Washington). That building is 81% tax exempt. The other 19% of the building (the part that is taxed) is rented by the church as office space. New St. Andrews College owns the former GTE building at Friendship Square (109 West 4th Street). That building is 89.5% exempt. (The taxed part is the bakery.) To provide an idea of the amount of money they save on property taxes, the tax bill for the Anselm House had been $423,000, and now, with the exemption in force, the tax bill is $80,000. The point I was trying to make in my original post was that non-profit religious and educational organizations are entitled to take such tax exemptions. But the reason they get those exemptions is that they are presumed to be benefitting the community through their good works. I did thank New St. Andrews College for supplying a public bathroom for use during the Farmers Market. Now, I am starting to wonder what else we are getting for this generous property tax exemption, and also wonder why these representatives of the church and college were not more forthcoming and direct. BL ----------------------- > The motto ought not to be "ready, fire, aim!" My suggestion is that we ask > Vera or Bill to run this down for us. We don't want to lend credence to a > method that circulates erroneous information first, and then requires the > misrepresented entities to put it all right. Let's ask those who want to > present their concerns to the public to get the facts straight first. > > Cordially, > > Douglas > ---------------- Gregory Dickison wrote, "By the way, Bill: you are wrong about the tax situation. But I will let you look that up." -------------------- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 23 01:54:36 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:54:36 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: Luke et. al. > > Ted answers: > > Yet many fundamentalist Christians insist that the > > commandment against killing is really only meant for those cold blooded > > murderers who kill senselessly, it is a commandment against "murder," >but >if > > you kill to punish or gain righteous compensation for a hideous crime >(let's > > forget for a moment that flawed and limited human mind which has sent >many > > to death row, death row inmates who were later released from prison by >the > > dozens after they were shown to be innocent), you have God's blessing. > > > > You will dodge this very real and controversial division within >Christianity > > about the death penalty, which demonstrates with startling clarity the > > relativistic and flawed interpretations of the Bible which Christian's >argue > > over: both interpretations cannot be right, can they? So there are >millions > > of Christians who are wrongly interpreting the Bible on the issue, >either > > the whole Catholic Church, or other groups of Christians who number in >the > > millions who believe staunchly in the death penalty. > >I do believe in the death penalty, and I don't dodge the fact that there is >controversy over this topic throughout our nation. But the death penalty is >a side issue; I am talking about the debate within Christianity on the death penalty. Is not one of the Ten Commandments "Thou Shall Not Kill?" Of course I know that this can be interpreted to mean "Do Not Murder" but this just begs the question, when the State takes the life of another human being who is locked up and not a danger to society, is this murder? kIlling in self defense is not the issue here. But you think the State killing someone in cold blood is a side issue? What sort of morality do you really represent? >we would not need it if the ten commandments were followed >from the beginning. But God and everyone knows they have not are not and will not be followed. >It is not the law of God that leads to confusion; You make my argument stronger, the argument you are most certainly avoiding, when avoiding the powerful and difficult debate about the death penalty! The biased human mind at work, filtering facts and logic to suit a pre-determined belief about how perfect their belief system is. And the millions of Christians, well educated Biblical scholars among them, who disagree on this death penalty issue, are ample evidence of the uncertainty of knowing all of Gods laws perfectly with the flawed and limited human mind. >it is >man's sinfulness, and in many cases his refusal to follow God's law that >bring about the controversies. >(To briefly address the issue, OT law lays clear principles that Christ >upheld in His ministry, and though not all OT laws carry through today, >those principles behind them still do. And one of them is that if you take >something unlawfully, the same will be required of you. And if I killed >your >wife, or your mother, you would very quickly become a proponent of the >D penalty, regardless of prior beliefs.) You are absolutely wrong! How about that for certainty! I do not support the death penalty, and if you killed someone I loved it is possible I would lose my temper and take you apart, but that is entirely different than giving the State the power to kill in cold blood in a jail, which is what supporting the "death penalty" means. I try to follow the words of a wise man who once advocated turning the other cheek and that those without sin can cast the first stone. > > I will agree that man by himself cannot obey God's law. That's why He >sends the saints the Holy Spirit. There still is debate and argument, but a >disagreement over the death penalty is not going to put you in hell. >Denying >it does not amount to heresy; you can believe the basic >gospel and still be wrong about a side issue. I know that there are many >areas of secondary doctrine that I don't fully understand, but the basic >gospel is clear, and so are the 10 commandments. Don't get flustered over >the death penalty; rather, simply don't murder. If one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou Shall Not Kill" then the disagreements over the death penalty can easily be linked to the Ten Commandments, again, depending on how they are interpreted. This is not a "secondary doctrine." > > To boil down the rest of your arguments, it seems quite clear that you >are an empiricist, and you don't believe in anything that you cannot prove >under the microscope. That doesn't sound very tolerant to me, Mr. Moffet. > There are many things which we know exist that you cannot get a >scientific handle on. Life, for one. When an organism is alive, there is >energy intake and energy output, but when it dies, for some reason all that >stops. Why? What is it that keeps you alive? Science cannot answer that >question. > Where does love come from? You cannot chemically analyze kindness; you >cannot dissect rudeness and attribute it to certain nerves in your body. Or >what about music? Here you have an ordered structure of things vibrating. >Things buzzing. Scientifically, empirically, music shouldn't exist. Simple >sound waves somehow fit into a coherent framework from horsehair rubbing on >strings, and you get Bach. Things smash into each other in some strange >consistency called rhythm, and out comes CCR. Why? Science alone cannot >explain any of these things. > My point in all this is somewhat obscure, so let me clarify. >Empiricism goes nowhere. Science proves nothing, it only gives evidence. >Humans have to make the conclusions, and these conclusions are based on the >supposedly flawed and imperfect minds you keep claiming we have. And even >then, science and empirical evidence cannot conceive many things. > And science cannot give us the answer to morality, for science is >constantly changing. Old theories are ever being replaced by the new. If >you >try to base your religion on the words and claims of the scientists, you're >building a house without a foundation. This philosophical ramble is so full of holes I don't know where to start. Perhaps I can suggest that you are an empiricist of a sort when you assert that your absolute code of conduct and morality comes from a book which you believe to be divinely revealed. Therefore the empirical data that are the foundation for your belief system are contained in the Bible. You will only accept what you can determine when the Bible is under your microscope. No facts from the Bible, no religion. Or you accept commands from on high when you hear the voice of God talk directly to you? > Christiants have a solid foundation, God's word. At the heart of it, >the >10 commandments. And though you might point to semi-relevant rabbit trails, Again, someone who views the moral debate over the deliberate cold blooded killing of another human being by the State as a "semi-relevant rabbit trail" has a frightening view of morality. Ted _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From timlohr@yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 02:02:23 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] This is so not important.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030723010223.16369.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> Carl, My big brother had a FUGS album. I believe it was called: "It Crawled Into My Hand, Honest." There was only one song that I remember from when he played it though, it was: "Johnny Piss-Off Vs. the Red Angel." I never "got" what was up with them, but still thought they were cool at the time. Of course later on I learned that Alan Ginsberg was a pedophile. The fact that the Fugs were associated with him made them seem even sicker, and in a much worse way, than they wanted to be. TL --- Ted Moffett wrote: > > Carl, and other Fugs devotes: > > I believe Ed Sanders (someone correct me if I am > wrong) was the brain child > of the Fugs, which was more of a protest poetry art > performance group, than > a "musical" group, depending one ones definition of > "music." They were > never mainstream in the 60s, in part because they > used profanities. > > But I disagree that the 60s are in the rearview > mirror. The revolt of that > time is alive and well and with us as we speak. > Artists like the Fugs, who > were censored in the extreme in the 60s due to > questionable content, now > have a much wider and more accepting audience. For > better or worse, free > expression is more "free" now than it was then. > Businesses that profit off > pornography now are out in the open, for example, > when in the 60s they would > have ended up in court. > > Speaking of censorship, the original censored album > cover to the one "Blind > Faith" album, that super group with Eric Clapton, > Steve Winwood and Ginger > Baker, is now out on display in stores right here in > Moscow, the same cover > that was banned when it came out during the 60s era. > It features a > "topless" female. > > Time for the Moscow City Council to go to work to > protect us! > > The 1960s really were a conservative time. > > Ted > > > > > >From: "Carl Westberg" > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: [Vision2020] This is so not important.. > >Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:46:17 -0700 > > > >But it may be of mild interest to those of us who > were rockin' and rollin' > >in the 1960s. If you were, and you remember the > great underground group > >The Fugs, they have a new CD out. The Spokesman > had an article about them > >over the weekend. As further proof that the 60s > are slipping further away > >in the rear view mirror, the lead singer on the new > CD, who was one of the > >founding members of the band in 1965, is now 79 > years old....Hey, I told > >you this wasn't important. > > > > > > > > > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months > FREE* > >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > >_____________________________________________________ > >List services made available by First Step > Internet, serving the > >communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection > with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From nielsen@uidaho.edu Wed Jul 23 03:07:26 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:07:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Government killing, etc. In-Reply-To: <20030723003506.14472.63862.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <68333669-BCB2-11D7-A275-00039385F674@uidaho.edu> > From: "Luke" > Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:51:24 PM US/Pacific > To: "Ted Moffett" > Cc: "vision2020" > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education > > > I do believe in the death penalty, and I don't dodge the fact that > there is > controversy over this topic throughout our nation. But the death > penalty is > a side issue; we would not need it if the ten commandments were > followed > from the beginning. It is not the law of God that leads to confusion; > it is > man's sinfulness, and in many cases his refusal to follow God's law > that > bring about the controversies. > (To briefly address the issue, OT law lays clear principles that Christ > upheld in His ministry, and though not all OT laws carry through today, > those principles behind them still do. And one of them is that if you > take > something unlawfully, the same will be required of you. And if I > killed your > wife, or your mother, you would very quickly become a proponent of the > D penalty, regardless of prior beliefs.) > > I will agree that man by himself cannot obey God's law. That's why > He > sends the saints the Holy Spirit. There still is debate and argument, > but a > disagreement over the death penalty is not going to put you in hell. > Denying > it does not amount to heresy; you can believe the basic > gospel and still be wrong about a side issue. I know that there are > many > areas of secondary doctrine that I don't fully understand, but the > basic > gospel is clear, and so are the 10 commandments. Don't get flustered > over > the death penalty; rather, simply don't murder. > > To boil down the rest of your arguments, it seems quite clear that > you > are an empiricist, and you don't believe in anything that you cannot > prove > under the microscope. That doesn't sound very tolerant to me, Mr. > Moffet. > There are many things which we know exist that you cannot get a > scientific handle on. Life, for one. When an organism is alive, there > is > energy intake and energy output, but when it dies, for some reason all > that > stops. Why? What is it that keeps you alive? Science cannot answer that > question. > Where does love come from? You cannot chemically analyze kindness; > you > cannot dissect rudeness and attribute it to certain nerves in your > body. Or > what about music? Here you have an ordered structure of things > vibrating. > Things buzzing. Scientifically, empirically, music shouldn't exist. > Simple > sound waves somehow fit into a coherent framework from horsehair > rubbing on > strings, and you get Bach. Things smash into each other in some strange > consistency called rhythm, and out comes CCR. Why? Science alone cannot > explain any of these things. > My point in all this is somewhat obscure, so let me clarify. > Empiricism goes nowhere. Science proves nothing, it only gives > evidence. > Humans have to make the conclusions, and these conclusions are based > on the > supposedly flawed and imperfect minds you keep claiming we have. And > even > then, science and empirical evidence cannot conceive many things. > And science cannot give us the answer to morality, for science is > constantly changing. Old theories are ever being replaced by the new. > If you > try to base your religion on the words and claims of the scientists, > you're > building a house without a foundation. > Christiants have a solid foundation, God's word. At the heart of > it, the > 10 commandments. And though you might point to semi-relevant rabbit > trails, > the confusion isn't over the 10 Words, but over particular > applications. > Your > attempt to confuse them and replace them with empiricism has failed, I > am > afraid. > > Sincerely and respectfully, > Luke Nieuwsma > RALPH NIELSEN It is obvious that Luke Nieuwsma doesn't care how many innocent people are killed by governments in the name of capital punishment. He just loves to kill. Civilized countries gave up state killing many years ago. Even the Catholic Church now opposes it, after many centuries of enthusiastically endorsing it. As for Luke's imagined "solid foundation, God's word," would he please tell us where his God has provided the world with a definition of exactly what constitutes the so-called Holy Bible? As for the so-called Ten Commandments, I will give Luke or anyone else a $1,000 reward for showing us an official numbered list in the Bible of these alleged commandments. From troy1@moscow.com Wed Jul 23 03:21:17 2003 From: troy1@moscow.com (Troy Merrill) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:21:17 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Government killing, etc. References: <68333669-BCB2-11D7-A275-00039385F674@uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <000701c350c1$19d44dc0$6864a8c0@tigris> As for the so-called Ten Commandments, I will give Luke or anyone else > a $1,000 reward for showing us an official numbered list in the Bible > of these alleged commandments. Which bible? Troy Merrill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph Nielsen" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 7:07 PM Subject: [Vision2020] Government killing, etc. > > From: "Luke" > > Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:51:24 PM US/Pacific > > To: "Ted Moffett" > > Cc: "vision2020" > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education > > > > > > I do believe in the death penalty, and I don't dodge the fact that > > there is > > controversy over this topic throughout our nation. But the death > > penalty is > > a side issue; we would not need it if the ten commandments were > > followed > > from the beginning. It is not the law of God that leads to confusion; > > it is > > man's sinfulness, and in many cases his refusal to follow God's law > > that > > bring about the controversies. > > (To briefly address the issue, OT law lays clear principles that Christ > > upheld in His ministry, and though not all OT laws carry through today, > > those principles behind them still do. And one of them is that if you > > take > > something unlawfully, the same will be required of you. And if I > > killed your > > wife, or your mother, you would very quickly become a proponent of the > > D penalty, regardless of prior beliefs.) > > > > I will agree that man by himself cannot obey God's law. That's why > > He > > sends the saints the Holy Spirit. There still is debate and argument, > > but a > > disagreement over the death penalty is not going to put you in hell. > > Denying > > it does not amount to heresy; you can believe the basic > > gospel and still be wrong about a side issue. I know that there are > > many > > areas of secondary doctrine that I don't fully understand, but the > > basic > > gospel is clear, and so are the 10 commandments. Don't get flustered > > over > > the death penalty; rather, simply don't murder. > > > > To boil down the rest of your arguments, it seems quite clear that > > you > > are an empiricist, and you don't believe in anything that you cannot > > prove > > under the microscope. That doesn't sound very tolerant to me, Mr. > > Moffet. > > There are many things which we know exist that you cannot get a > > scientific handle on. Life, for one. When an organism is alive, there > > is > > energy intake and energy output, but when it dies, for some reason all > > that > > stops. Why? What is it that keeps you alive? Science cannot answer that > > question. > > Where does love come from? You cannot chemically analyze kindness; > > you > > cannot dissect rudeness and attribute it to certain nerves in your > > body. Or > > what about music? Here you have an ordered structure of things > > vibrating. > > Things buzzing. Scientifically, empirically, music shouldn't exist. > > Simple > > sound waves somehow fit into a coherent framework from horsehair > > rubbing on > > strings, and you get Bach. Things smash into each other in some strange > > consistency called rhythm, and out comes CCR. Why? Science alone cannot > > explain any of these things. > > My point in all this is somewhat obscure, so let me clarify. > > Empiricism goes nowhere. Science proves nothing, it only gives > > evidence. > > Humans have to make the conclusions, and these conclusions are based > > on the > > supposedly flawed and imperfect minds you keep claiming we have. And > > even > > then, science and empirical evidence cannot conceive many things. > > And science cannot give us the answer to morality, for science is > > constantly changing. Old theories are ever being replaced by the new. > > If you > > try to base your religion on the words and claims of the scientists, > > you're > > building a house without a foundation. > > Christiants have a solid foundation, God's word. At the heart of > > it, the > > 10 commandments. And though you might point to semi-relevant rabbit > > trails, > > the confusion isn't over the 10 Words, but over particular > > applications. > > Your > > attempt to confuse them and replace them with empiricism has failed, I > > am > > afraid. > > > > Sincerely and respectfully, > > Luke Nieuwsma > > > RALPH NIELSEN > It is obvious that Luke Nieuwsma doesn't care how many innocent people > are killed by governments in the name of capital punishment. He just > loves to kill. Civilized countries gave up state killing many years > ago. Even the Catholic Church now opposes it, after many centuries of > enthusiastically endorsing it. > As for Luke's imagined "solid foundation, God's word," would he please > tell us where his God has provided the world with a definition of > exactly what constitutes the so-called Holy Bible? > As for the so-called Ten Commandments, I will give Luke or anyone else > a $1,000 reward for showing us an official numbered list in the Bible > of these alleged commandments. > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 23 03:42:15 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 02:42:15 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, elsewhere Message-ID: Donovan and All: Of course it's a joke. I have not been visiting the future. But with current trends with job losses in the USA to overseas sources of cheaper labor, with no unions, no OSHA, no overtime pay, no or few environmental regulations, etc. .... who will buy the goods when wages drop here in the USA to compete with overseas labor? Good question. But how can wages here in the USA stay high when every month more US jobs are sent overseas to cheaper labor? Ah, of course, the profits from the multinationals will "trickle down." We shall see if the latest version of supply side economic theory works now with the big Bush tax cut coming through. Ted >From: "Donovan Arnold" >To: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu, ted_moffett@hotmail.com, dale@courtneys.us >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, >elsewhere >Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:17:57 -0700 > >What the *&^%? Can somebody explain how someone can afford to buy the >products we make if they are only paid .75 cents an hour? > >This is joke isn't it Ted? > >Donovan J Arnold > > >>From: Thomas Hansen >>To: "'Ted Moffett'" , dale@courtneys.us >>CC: vision2020@moscow.com >>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, >>elsewhere >>Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:52:40 -0700 >> >>Why stop there, Mr. Moffett? Why don't we simply dissolve all unions, >>amend >>the US Constitution making it illegal for workers to organize, and work >>for >>whatever pennies "corporate" America is willing to part with? >> >>Tom Hansen >>Moscow, Idaho >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Ted Moffett [mailto:ted_moffett@hotmail.com] >>Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:47 PM >>To: dale@courtneys.us >>Cc: vision2020@moscow.com >>Subject: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, >>elsewhere >> >> >> >>April, 2020. >> >>Legislation legalizing a 60 hour work week with no overtime for assembly >>line manufacturing jobs at a 75 cents an hour minimum wage passed the US >>Congress this week. >> >>"It's the only way US workers can stay competitive," said an anonymous >>business executive with a 7 figure salary. "If we want to keep our >>workforce employed, we must evolve to adapt to the realities of the global >>marketplace. There are hundreds of millions of willing workers overseas >>who >> >>accept these conditions and pay. American workers need to quit whining >>and >>face reality!" >> >>Ted >> >> >> >From: "Dale Courtney" >> >To: >> >Subject: [Vision2020] IBM sees need to shift jobs overseas: Firm seen >> >moving workforce to India, elsewhere >> >Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 07:47:21 -0700 >> > >> >IBM sees need to shift jobs overseas >> >Reuters >> > >> > >> >Two senior officials at IBM, the world's largest computer maker, said >>the >> >company needs to speed its efforts to move white-collar jobs to India >>and >> >elsewhere overseas, The New York Times reported on Tuesday. >> > >> >IN A RECORDING of a conference call given to The New York Times by a >>labor >> >union, top employee relations executives said IBM needed to make the >>same >> >moves its competitors made to save money by shifting service jobs away >>from >> >> >the United States. >> >The article cited Forrester Research as estimating 450,000 U.S. computer >> >industry jobs could be transferred overseas in the next 12 years, >> >representing eight percent of U.S. computer jobs. >> > >> >Executives worried on the March IBM conference call that broader >> >unionization could arise as the trend strengthens, The Times said. >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus >> >>_____________________________________________________ >> List services made available by First Step Internet, >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ >> >>_____________________________________________________ >> List services made available by First Step Internet, >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From bradneuman@moscow.com Wed Jul 23 04:01:45 2003 From: bradneuman@moscow.com (Brad Neuman) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:01:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Which Bible was Government killing, etc. In-Reply-To: <000701c350c1$19d44dc0$6864a8c0@tigris> Message-ID: <010701c350c6$c3a31f20$6401a8c0@DEN> I don't know which Bible, there are lots of them, just like there are lots of true religions. I only suggest we stop this endless bickering and try to treat each other person as that person would like to be treated. I am personally sick of individuals explaining to me the will of God when they don't have the capacity to program a VCR let alone design a computer chip or explain DNA code sequencing. Not that I know for sure, but I guess that each of the above may be slightly less complex than a supreme being. And to quote: King James Version, Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not kill." and shortly afterwards Exodus 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." and Exodus 22:19 "Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death." Standard Revised Bible, Exodus 20:15 "You shall not kill." and once again Exodus 22:18 " You shall not permit a sorceress to live." and Exodus 22:19 "Whoever lies with a beast shall be put to death." Darby, Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not kill." and once again Exodus 22:18 " -- Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." and Exodus 22:19 " -- Every one that lieth with a beast shall certainly be put to death.." In addition I would like to quote the Revised Standard Version of Mark 10:21, " And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."" The donation baskets for the Troy Food Bank are, once again, at Jimmy G's Motorsports and at the Moscow Chamber of Commerce Building. Brad Neuman Troy, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Troy Merrill Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 7:21 PM To: Ralph Nielsen; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Government killing, etc. As for the so-called Ten Commandments, I will give Luke or anyone else > a $1,000 reward for showing us an official numbered list in the Bible > of these alleged commandments. Which bible? Troy Merrill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph Nielsen" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 7:07 PM Subject: [Vision2020] Government killing, etc. > > From: "Luke" > > Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:51:24 PM US/Pacific > > To: "Ted Moffett" > > Cc: "vision2020" > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education > > > > > > I do believe in the death penalty, and I don't dodge the fact that > > there is > > controversy over this topic throughout our nation. But the death > > penalty is > > a side issue; we would not need it if the ten commandments were > > followed > > from the beginning. It is not the law of God that leads to confusion; > > it is > > man's sinfulness, and in many cases his refusal to follow God's law > > that > > bring about the controversies. > > (To briefly address the issue, OT law lays clear principles that Christ > > upheld in His ministry, and though not all OT laws carry through today, > > those principles behind them still do. And one of them is that if you > > take > > something unlawfully, the same will be required of you. And if I > > killed your > > wife, or your mother, you would very quickly become a proponent of the > > D penalty, regardless of prior beliefs.) > > > > I will agree that man by himself cannot obey God's law. That's why > > He > > sends the saints the Holy Spirit. There still is debate and argument, > > but a > > disagreement over the death penalty is not going to put you in hell. > > Denying > > it does not amount to heresy; you can believe the basic > > gospel and still be wrong about a side issue. I know that there are > > many > > areas of secondary doctrine that I don't fully understand, but the > > basic > > gospel is clear, and so are the 10 commandments. Don't get flustered > > over > > the death penalty; rather, simply don't murder. > > > > To boil down the rest of your arguments, it seems quite clear that > > you > > are an empiricist, and you don't believe in anything that you cannot > > prove > > under the microscope. That doesn't sound very tolerant to me, Mr. > > Moffet. > > There are many things which we know exist that you cannot get a > > scientific handle on. Life, for one. When an organism is alive, there > > is > > energy intake and energy output, but when it dies, for some reason all > > that > > stops. Why? What is it that keeps you alive? Science cannot answer that > > question. > > Where does love come from? You cannot chemically analyze kindness; > > you > > cannot dissect rudeness and attribute it to certain nerves in your > > body. Or > > what about music? Here you have an ordered structure of things > > vibrating. > > Things buzzing. Scientifically, empirically, music shouldn't exist. > > Simple > > sound waves somehow fit into a coherent framework from horsehair > > rubbing on > > strings, and you get Bach. Things smash into each other in some strange > > consistency called rhythm, and out comes CCR. Why? Science alone cannot > > explain any of these things. > > My point in all this is somewhat obscure, so let me clarify. > > Empiricism goes nowhere. Science proves nothing, it only gives > > evidence. > > Humans have to make the conclusions, and these conclusions are based > > on the > > supposedly flawed and imperfect minds you keep claiming we have. And > > even > > then, science and empirical evidence cannot conceive many things. > > And science cannot give us the answer to morality, for science is > > constantly changing. Old theories are ever being replaced by the new. > > If you > > try to base your religion on the words and claims of the scientists, > > you're > > building a house without a foundation. > > Christiants have a solid foundation, God's word. At the heart of > > it, the > > 10 commandments. And though you might point to semi-relevant rabbit > > trails, > > the confusion isn't over the 10 Words, but over particular > > applications. > > Your > > attempt to confuse them and replace them with empiricism has failed, I > > am > > afraid. > > > > Sincerely and respectfully, > > Luke Nieuwsma > > > RALPH NIELSEN > It is obvious that Luke Nieuwsma doesn't care how many innocent people > are killed by governments in the name of capital punishment. He just > loves to kill. Civilized countries gave up state killing many years > ago. Even the Catholic Church now opposes it, after many centuries of > enthusiastically endorsing it. > As for Luke's imagined "solid foundation, God's word," would he please > tell us where his God has provided the world with a definition of > exactly what constitutes the so-called Holy Bible? > As for the so-called Ten Commandments, I will give Luke or anyone else > a $1,000 reward for showing us an official numbered list in the Bible > of these alleged commandments. > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jul 23 04:27:06 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:27:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, elsewhere Message-ID: Oh, OK, LOL, I didn't see the date at the top of the email. I would not be surprised if they did that, though. But I would have expected the Senate to fight like crazy to prevent the Republican Congress to reduce the minimum wage. The minimum wage in Texas is $3.25 an hour. Many republicans want to eliminate it completely and let the free market determine the wages. I just say, return to slavery, at least slaves were given one meal and a shack to stay in. Donovan J Arnold >From: "Ted Moffett" >To: donovanarnold@hotmail.com, tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu, dale@courtneys.us >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, >elsewhere >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 02:42:15 +0000 > >Donovan and All: > >Of course it's a joke. I have not been visiting the future. But with >current trends with job losses in the USA to overseas sources of cheaper >labor, with no unions, no OSHA, no overtime pay, no or few environmental >regulations, etc. .... who will buy the goods when wages drop here in the >USA to compete with overseas labor? Good question. But how can wages here >in the USA stay high when every month more US jobs are sent overseas to >cheaper labor? Ah, of course, the profits from the multinationals will >"trickle down." > >We shall see if the latest version of supply side economic theory works now >with the big Bush tax cut coming through. > >Ted > >>From: "Donovan Arnold" >>To: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu, ted_moffett@hotmail.com, dale@courtneys.us >>CC: vision2020@moscow.com >>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, >>elsewhere >>Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:17:57 -0700 >> >>What the *&^%? Can somebody explain how someone can afford to buy the >>products we make if they are only paid .75 cents an hour? >> >>This is joke isn't it Ted? >> >>Donovan J Arnold >> >> >>>From: Thomas Hansen >>>To: "'Ted Moffett'" , dale@courtneys.us >>>CC: vision2020@moscow.com >>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, >>>elsewhere >>>Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:52:40 -0700 >>> >>>Why stop there, Mr. Moffett? Why don't we simply dissolve all unions, >>>amend >>>the US Constitution making it illegal for workers to organize, and work >>>for >>>whatever pennies "corporate" America is willing to part with? >>> >>>Tom Hansen >>>Moscow, Idaho >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Ted Moffett [mailto:ted_moffett@hotmail.com] >>>Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:47 PM >>>To: dale@courtneys.us >>>Cc: vision2020@moscow.com >>>Subject: [Vision2020] US Workers Adapt: moving workforce to India, >>>elsewhere >>> >>> >>> >>>April, 2020. >>> >>>Legislation legalizing a 60 hour work week with no overtime for assembly >>>line manufacturing jobs at a 75 cents an hour minimum wage passed the US >>>Congress this week. >>> >>>"It's the only way US workers can stay competitive," said an anonymous >>>business executive with a 7 figure salary. "If we want to keep our >>>workforce employed, we must evolve to adapt to the realities of the >>>global >>>marketplace. There are hundreds of millions of willing workers overseas >>>who >>> >>>accept these conditions and pay. American workers need to quit whining >>>and >>>face reality!" >>> >>>Ted >>> >>> >>> >From: "Dale Courtney" >>> >To: >>> >Subject: [Vision2020] IBM sees need to shift jobs overseas: Firm seen >>> >moving workforce to India, elsewhere >>> >Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 07:47:21 -0700 >>> > >>> >IBM sees need to shift jobs overseas >>> >Reuters >>> > >>> > >>> >Two senior officials at IBM, the world's largest computer maker, said >>>the >>> >company needs to speed its efforts to move white-collar jobs to India >>>and >>> >elsewhere overseas, The New York Times reported on Tuesday. >>> > >>> >IN A RECORDING of a conference call given to The New York Times by a >>>labor >>> >union, top employee relations executives said IBM needed to make the >>>same >>> >moves its competitors made to save money by shifting service jobs away >>>from >>> >>> >the United States. >>> >The article cited Forrester Research as estimating 450,000 U.S. >>>computer >>> >industry jobs could be transferred overseas in the next 12 years, >>> >representing eight percent of U.S. computer jobs. >>> > >>> >Executives worried on the March IBM conference call that broader >>> >unionization could arise as the trend strengthens, The Times said. >>> >>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. >>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus >>> >>>_____________________________________________________ >>> List services made available by First Step Internet, >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >>> http://www.fsr.net >>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >>>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ >>> >>>_____________________________________________________ >>> List services made available by First Step Internet, >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >>> http://www.fsr.net >>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >>>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ >> > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From sdredge@yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 05:16:21 2003 From: sdredge@yahoo.com (Scott Dredge) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 21:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Code In-Reply-To: <000301c35096$d6d7f6e0$880aa8c0@credenda.org> Message-ID: <20030723041621.45610.qmail@web10507.mail.yahoo.com> Has it ever been addressed in this forum? I didn't find any in the vision2020 archives. -SD --- Doug Jones wrote: > Christ Church has addressed this slander publicly > and in print several > times now. Why should we do your homework anymore? > From sdredge@yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 05:49:37 2003 From: sdredge@yahoo.com (Scott Dredge) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 21:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Douglas Wilson on businesses policies In-Reply-To: <20030723041621.45610.qmail@web10507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030723044937.49196.qmail@web10507.mail.yahoo.com> Last September Douglas Wilson wrote: ------------------------------------ So if I owned a restaurant and a homosexual couple came in, I would not ask them if they were homosexual. But if they began behaving in such a way as to demand my explicit or implicit approval of their lifestyle, which my silence would provide them, would I ask them to leave? You bet I would. And progressives have so trashed the word hate that my attempt to maintain a decent establishment would no doubt be called a form of hatred. But I would do the same with heterosexual women with their tops off, heterosexual men with their trousers off, and any members of Congress. In his response to Vera, Douglas Wilson wrote: ------------------------------------- Third, Vera says that the welcome mat for gays and lesbians "isn't out" at several downtown church-run businesses. Church-run businesses? Name one. It is true that members of Christ Church have businesses and jobs, but I believe this is also true of other churches. And with regard to lack of welcome, this was not reported on the basis of any policies, any signs in any windows, or anything else of the kind. Rather, this particular breaking story is mentioned on the basis of how several members of the gay and lesbian axis said they felt. What is this? Given my "orientation," if I were to enter a tattoo emporium, I would hardly expect applause to break out. And it wouldn't hurt my feelings if it didn't. This is an area were some folks need to grow up just a little bit. From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jul 23 06:00:40 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:00:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Government killing, etc. Message-ID: Luke writes: "I do believe in the death penalty, and I don't dodge the fact that there is controversy over this topic throughout our nation. But the death penalty is a side issue; we would not need it if the ten commandments were followed from the beginning. It is not the law of God that leads to confusion;it is man's sinfulness, and in many cases his refusal to follow God's law that bring about the controversies." First, I don't buy the concept that government sanctioned killing is a law of God. From my understating God was very forgiving, and said let vengeance be his, not ours. We have every right to protect ourselves from people that may do us harm. But the death penalty is not protecting us, it is only used as an act of vengeance. Second, it contradicts itself and generates more sin and violations of Gods law. If a jury, a judge, and a prosecutor convict and send a person to death for a murder they did not commit, are they not sending a person to death that is innocent? If so, then are they not committing a murder if they intentionally kill a person that is innocent? Under God's law, thou shall not kill, they have broken this. In doing such they are now themselves murderers. One could argue that the jury did not know for sure that the person did or did not really commit the crime. Which brings me to my point, only God can actually know this, so therefore, it is he, and he alone, that should take vengeance. I feel that someone that wants the death penalty when they know that we can not possibly know for 100% certainty if they are guilty, still wants to go ahead with it, are taking on the roll of God, that to me is spitting in the face of God. It is our job to protect the innocent and to prevent murder. It is not our job to seek vengeance through a flawed system of justice. Third, the death penalty allows us a way out for helping people and taking on the serious issues that cause people to become murderers. By saying that we will simply kill those that kill is not addressing the issue but rather covering the symptoms of the problem. Your average person is not a murderer. It is easily understandable what generates a murderer. The problem is not easy to solve, but that does not mean that we should ignore it. Finally, the notion of "Killing people to tell people that killing people wrong" is such a contradicting logic that it can not stand up to any reasonable audience expect one that is full of vengeance and vindictiveness that wishes to stand in the place of God himself. Donovan J Arnold _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jul 23 06:35:35 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:35:35 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Douglas Wilson on businesses policies Message-ID: I am hoping that Mr. Wilson, or someone that knows Mr. Wilson well enough, could explain the meaning of this statement: "I would not ask them if they were homosexual. But if they began behaving in such a way as to demand my explicit or implicit approval of their lifestyle, which my silence would provide them, would I ask them to leave?" Then he states: "But I would do the same with heterosexual >women with their tops off, heterosexual men with their >trousers off, and any members of Congress." Does Mr. Wilson mean that a same-gender couple that holds hands or kisses in a public restaurant, as opposite-gender couples do, is equivalent to men and women taking their clothes off in public? Or does he mean that a opposite gendered couple or same-gendered couple are expected to behave in the same manner? To me, I don't think a same-gendered couple would ever attempt to engage in sexual intercourse over an entree at the Olive Garden. To imply or use such an instance as a justification to remove a same-gendered couple seems to far fetched to use as an example that would be applicable to any real life situation. I hope that Mr. Wilson will justify his vague wording and stance on the issue regarding the equal treatment of gays and lesbians in the Moscow community that could be deeply offended his statement. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: Scott Dredge >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] Douglas Wilson on businesses policies >Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 21:49:37 -0700 (PDT) > >Last September Douglas Wilson wrote: >------------------------------------ >So if I owned a restaurant and a homosexual couple >came in, I would not ask them if they were homosexual. >But if they began behaving in such a way as to demand >my explicit or implicit approval of their lifestyle, >which my silence would provide them, would I ask them >to leave? You bet I would. And progressives have so >trashed the word hate that my attempt to maintain a >decent establishment would no doubt be called a form >of hatred. But I would do the same with heterosexual >women with their tops off, heterosexual men with their >trousers off, and any members of Congress. > >In his response to Vera, Douglas Wilson wrote: >------------------------------------- > Third, Vera says that the welcome mat for gays and >lesbians "isn't out" at several downtown church-run >businesses. Church-run businesses? Name one. It is >true that members of Christ Church have businesses and >jobs, but I believe this is also true of other >churches. And with regard to lack of welcome, this was >not reported on the basis of any policies, any signs >in any windows, or anything else of the kind. Rather, >this particular breaking story is mentioned on the >basis of how several members of the gay and lesbian >axis said they felt. What is this? Given my >"orientation," if I were to enter a tattoo emporium, I >would hardly expect applause to break out. And it >wouldn't hurt my feelings if it didn't. This is an >area were some folks need to grow up just a little bit. > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From drp@atscorp.com Wed Jul 23 08:36:16 2003 From: drp@atscorp.com (Randy Petersen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:36:16 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Codes References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030722154511.01c45710@mail.moscow.com> <3F1DD985.508DAE3B@moscow.com> Message-ID: <3F1E3AF0.A1B3BEE7@atscorp.com> + Tax + Tax + Tax..... The property tax exemption is an acknowledgement by government of the Separation of Church and State. Since the Church is limited in their participation in the political process via their 501(c)3 tax exempt status, they may not engage in political interchange or lose their tax exempt status. The Church can not reach into the State and the State can not reach into the Church. They tried that with a State Church in Europe. America chose not to have a State Church. Since taxation with OUT representation was the basis of the American Revolution and Churches can not act in the political realm, they are thus non taxable. Their should be no expectation on the part of the community to receive any benefit from the Church, ie soup kitchens, homeless shelters, then there would be if an individual received a home owners tax exemption, because they used a house as the primary residence. Also taxing a Church would be double taxation, as the people who compose the Church are taxed on sales, income, excise, and realestate already. The Feds, State, County, and City governments even want to get their hand in Gods pockets, because they can't live within a budget when they expect everyone else too. Randy Petersen I already gave at the office ! From gdickison@moscow.com Wed Jul 23 13:59:54 2003 From: gdickison@moscow.com (Gregory Dickison) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 05:59:54 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Codes References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030722154511.01c45710@mail.moscow.com> <3F1DD985.508DAE3B@moscow.com> Message-ID: <002701c3511a$4ffbafc0$6501a8c0@wireless.fsr.net> Dear Visionaries: Bill says that I "implied" that he was wrong about his understanding of the tax situation. I did not imply it, I said it out loud. Bill then says that it "seems" that I was denying that NSA took advantage of a property tax exemption. I was doing no such thing. False assumptions are what started this thread in the first place. How it is that the writer's clear statements turn into implications and the reader's or observer's unfounded assumptions turn into hard facts is beyond me. But since Bill actually did the investigation I invited him to do, I will expand on what was wrong with his letter to the editor. Bill said, "When educational and religious organizations purchase property and remove that property from the tax rolls, the other taxpayers have to pay more to maintain governmental services." NSA did not remove any property from the tax roles. Before NSA bought the building, it was owned by Verizon/GTE, which paid no property taxes. NSA has simply substituted one form of tax exemption for another, keeping the status quo. If anything, NSA has increased the amount of property taxes being paid, lessening the burden on the other taxpayers. I would think this would be happy news. Bill said, "In exchange, those educational and religious organizations are assumed to be doing good works that benefit the community." He then says in his recent post, "Now, I am starting to wonder what else we are getting for this generous property tax exemption...." Tax exemptions of whatever kind are granted to certain organizations because their missions are inherently beneficial to the community. The organizations are not required to submit an additional check list of "good works" that they will do to justify the exemption. But even if I were to grant Bill's point, NSA meets the test in at least two ways: providing restrooms to the Farmers' Market, and providing Diversity in Educational Choice. Now, I do agree that NSA (and Christ Church, and anyone else with a Christian mission) has an obligation to do good works and to benefit Moscow. But that is because they are part of the body of Christ, and not because of some crass financial quid pro quo with the civil government. Cheers, Gregory C. Dickison Lawyer & Counselor at Law Post Office Box 8846 312 South Main Street Moscow, Idaho 83843 (208) 882-4009 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill London" To: "Douglas" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tax Codes > Both Doug Wilson and Greg Dickison responded to my V2020 posting about the > property tax exemption provided by this community to the buildings owned by > Christ Church and New St. Andrews College. > > Both Wilson and Dickison (relevant parts of their posts are reprinted below) > clearly implied that I was wrong. Their posts are written in a > seemingly-clever way to make their meaning come through without stating > anything directly, but it sure seems to me they were denying that their > organizations took advantage of a property tax exemption in Moscow. > > So I called the Latah County Assessor's Office (882-8580) and asked. > The answer: both Christ Church and New St. Andrews College are taking > significant property tax exemptions. Here is what I was told by the > assessor's office personnel: > > Christ Church owns the Anselm House at 5th and Washington in Moscow (actually > 504 South Washington). That building is 81% tax exempt. The other 19% of the > building (the part that is taxed) is rented by the church as office space. > > New St. Andrews College owns the former GTE building at Friendship Square (109 > West 4th Street). That building is 89.5% exempt. (The taxed part is the > bakery.) > > To provide an idea of the amount of money they save on property taxes, the tax > bill for the Anselm House had been $423,000, and now, with the exemption in > force, the tax bill is $80,000. > > The point I was trying to make in my original post was that non-profit > religious and educational organizations are entitled to take such tax > exemptions. But the reason they get those exemptions is that they are > presumed to be benefitting the community through their good works. > > I did thank New St. Andrews College for supplying a public bathroom for use > during the Farmers Market. Now, I am starting to wonder what else we are > getting for this generous property tax exemption, and also wonder why these > representatives of the church and college were not more forthcoming and > direct. > BL > > ----------------------- > > > The motto ought not to be "ready, fire, aim!" My suggestion is that we ask > > Vera or Bill to run this down for us. We don't want to lend credence to a > > method that circulates erroneous information first, and then requires the > > misrepresented entities to put it all right. Let's ask those who want to > > present their concerns to the public to get the facts straight first. > > > > Cordially, > > > > Douglas > > > > ---------------- > Gregory Dickison wrote, "By the way, Bill: you are wrong about the tax > situation. But I will let you look that up." > > -------------------- > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From dkaag@turbonet.com Wed Jul 23 15:57:13 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:57:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... Message-ID: Visionaries: Is anyone else getting tired of the constant sniping at Christ Church and Logos that occurs on this site? Is there nothing else in Moscow and environs that attracts people's attention, or that is worthy of discussion? Let's talk about the aquifer some more, or the paucity of decent restaurants. We live, ostensibly, in a free republic, with separation of church and state. No one, so far as I know, is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to attend Christ Church or to send their kids to Logos. So what's the problem? Why can't the "progressive" people in this community who talk loudly and constantly about freedom of speech, and equal treatment for ethnic and gender minorities, and whine about how George W. Bush "stole" the presidency, allow the members of Christ Church the same freedoms they trumpet so loudly for their various groups and causes? Oh, I know---the Christ Church folks are just not "like us"! I have lost count of the conversations with "progressive" friends, and overheard comments in the Moscow High School faculty lounge and other venues that dealt with "them" (i.e., Doug Wilson and his congregation...) trying to "take over" Moscow. I have been told by friends that I should not patronize Bucers (and now the new bakery on Friendship Square), because the people who own and run it are members of Christ Church. What has that got to do with the quality of their coffee or their cinnamon rolls? I like Bucers, although I would be happy to have an alternative place which puts smokers off in a room by themselves, plays soft classical music, has intellectually-challenging books to read, and serves reasonably good wine by the glass. Someone else open another place like Bucers, and I will spend time there, too. The Corner Club or the Slurp 'n Burp just won't cut it---I dislike second-hand smoke and I loathe country and western music. If I bothered to take the time to do a religious background check on every establishment I do business with in Moscow, I wouldn't have the time to do anything else. Perhaps it would save time if the City Council required any business owned and operated by a Christ Church congregant to paint a large cross on their window, or maybe they could be forced to wear a little cloth cross sewn prominently to their clothing? Then we would all know which establishments were run by "Untermenchen" in our town, and could avoid giving them our business. Rumors abound. "They" are soliciting other conservative Christians to move here and join their congregation, in an attempt to take over the political process. "They" are trying to destroy the public school system. "They", now that New Saint Andrews College has taken over the old GTE building, will take over Friendship Square. Hey, reality check... "They" is us. People who live and work and worship in this community are members of this community. Christ Church members live here. They pay taxes. If they want to be involved in the political process, or encourage their friends to move here, because it is a nice to live and raise a family, more power to them. And if they organize, work hard, and are willing to donate time to community affairs, and they out-organize the local "progressives" (who are already a political minority in this most Republican of states...) and have themselves elected to local and state office, that's the way the political process works. If you don't like it, you are certainly welcome to work harder, or open your own school, or get more "progressive" friends to move here, or run for political office. Until then, find a new obsession, and stop complaining! Regards, Don Kaag From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Wed Jul 23 16:09:13 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:09:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FF1@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Greetings Visionaires - Don Kaag stated: " . . . I would be happy to have an alternative place which puts smokers off in a room by themselves, plays soft classical music, has intellectually-challenging books to read, and serves reasonably good wine by the glass. Someone else open another place like Bucers, and I will spend time there, too. The Corner Club or the Slurp 'n Burp just won't cut it---I dislike second-hand smoke and I loathe country and western music." I agree 10,000% with you, Don. I miss the old Beanery. I love the idea of the old coffee shop/bakery in an atmosphere of old Rhythm and Blues quietly playing in the background as I read my copy of Howard Cosell's "I Never Played the Game". Any chance we can brink it back? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Wed Jul 23 16:39:39 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:39:39 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... Message-ID: To continue on Mr. Kaag's thoughtful message, I was listening to the news this morning (yes, it was NPR) as Bob Dole was speaking at the dedication of his library in Kansas yesterday. Speaking of his continuing close friendship with former political rival George McGovern, Mr. Dole spoke of a world "where strong convictions coexist with civility. Where a clash of ideals never leads to a holy war." Granted, he was speaking of much larger arena than Moscow, Idaho, but I believe his words apply here, also. Carl Westberg Jr. >From: Don Kaag >To: Vision2020 >Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:57:13 -0700 > >Visionaries: > >Is anyone else getting tired of the constant sniping at Christ Church and >Logos that occurs on this site? > >Is there nothing else in Moscow and environs that attracts people's >attention, or that is worthy of discussion? Let's talk about the aquifer >some more, or the paucity of decent restaurants. > >We live, ostensibly, in a free republic, with separation of church and >state. No one, so far as I know, is holding a gun to anyone's head and >forcing them to attend Christ Church or to send their kids to Logos. So >what's the problem? Why can't the "progressive" people in this community >who talk loudly and constantly about freedom of speech, and equal treatment >for ethnic and gender minorities, and whine about how George W. Bush >"stole" the presidency, allow the members of Christ Church the same >freedoms they trumpet so loudly for their various groups and causes? Oh, I >know---the Christ Church folks are just not "like us"! > >I have lost count of the conversations with "progressive" friends, and >overheard comments in the Moscow High School faculty lounge and other >venues that dealt with "them" (i.e., Doug Wilson and his congregation...) >trying to "take over" Moscow. > >I have been told by friends that I should not patronize Bucers (and now the >new bakery on Friendship Square), because the people who own and run it are >members of Christ Church. What has that got to do with the quality of >their coffee or their cinnamon rolls? I like Bucers, although I would be >happy to have an alternative place which puts smokers off in a room by >themselves, plays soft classical music, has intellectually-challenging >books to read, and serves reasonably good wine by the glass. Someone else >open another place like Bucers, and I will spend time there, too. The >Corner Club or the Slurp 'n Burp just won't cut it---I dislike second-hand >smoke and I loathe country and western music. > >If I bothered to take the time to do a religious background check on every >establishment I do business with in Moscow, I wouldn't have the time to do >anything else. Perhaps it would save time if the City Council required any >business owned and operated by a Christ Church congregant to paint a large >cross on their window, or maybe they could be forced to wear a little cloth >cross sewn prominently to their clothing? Then we would all know which >establishments were run by "Untermenchen" in our town, and could avoid >giving them our business. > > Rumors abound. "They" are soliciting other conservative Christians to >move here and join their congregation, in an attempt to take over the >political process. "They" are trying to destroy the public school system. >"They", now that New Saint Andrews College has taken over the old GTE >building, will take over Friendship Square. > >Hey, reality check... "They" is us. People who live and work and worship >in this community are members of this community. Christ Church members >live here. They pay taxes. If they want to be involved in the political >process, or encourage their friends to move here, because it is a nice to >live and raise a family, more power to them. And if they organize, work >hard, and are willing to donate time to community affairs, and they >out-organize the local "progressives" (who are already a political minority >in this most Republican of states...) and have themselves elected to local >and state office, that's the way the political process works. > >If you don't like it, you are certainly welcome to work harder, or open >your own school, or get more "progressive" friends to move here, or run for >political office. Until then, find a new obsession, and stop complaining! > >Regards, > >Don Kaag > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From london@moscow.com Wed Jul 23 17:39:17 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:39:17 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow Civic Association Message-ID: <3F1EBA35.86E7DB6A@moscow.com> LOGO CONTEST FOR $100 PRIZE: The Moscow Civic Association is soliciting entries in a contest for a logo for the organization. Guidelines: an 8½ x 11 black and white copy (can be in color, if it will also print well in black and white). Mail to Moscow Civic Association, PO Box 8788, Moscow, ID 83843. Deadline Aug. 1, 2003. REPORT ON JULY MEETING: The arts in Moscow are alive and thriving. However, we want the artists themselves to thrive, and for Moscow to indeed become the “Heart of the Arts.” This was the main theme of the July open public meeting of the Moscow Civic Association, attended by 47 people on a beautiful summer evening, July 8. Entitled “Smart Art: Improving Moscow Through a More Vibrant Arts Community,” this panel presentation was Part II in a series on Smart Growth for Moscow. Deena Heath, director of the Moscow Arts Commission, introduced the Community Cultural Planning process that she is undertaking. Cultural planning aims to identify community cultural resources and needs and then develop policies and plans in response. The goals are to encourage artists and strengthen nonprofit cultural organizations. This will, in turn, impact tourism, downtown revitalization, and economic/community development. A panel discussion followed, focusing on building a vibrant arts community in Moscow. Diana Pace, a professional painter with a degree in architecture, represented the area’s working artists. Another panel member was Linda Pall, local attorney, former City Council member, and driving force behind development of the Farmers’ Market and the Moscow Arts Commission, advocate for the City’s purchase of the 1912 Building, and an artist/photographer. She described a new corporation, Heart of the Arts, formed to raise funds for finishing Phase III of the 1912 Building as an art and performance space. Four other panel members spoke from their points of view as longtime supporters of the arts in Moscow: Shelly Bennett, owner/broker of Bennett and Associates Real Estate, who serves on the Board of Directors of the Kenworthy Performing Arts Center and is a former member of the Board of Directors of the Idaho Repertory Theatre; Julie Ketchum, executive director of the Kenworthy Performing Arts Centre and former executive director of Rendezvous in the Park; Diana Kendall Woolston, owner of Appearances Marketing and Promotions, currently vice-chair of the Kenworthy Performing Arts Centre, a Moscow Arts commissioner and a Board member of both Rendezvous and Festival Dance; and Jim Boland, owner of C & L Lockers, a longtime supporter of the arts in Moscow. The audience participated actively in a question and commentary session after the panelists’ presentations. There will be no August meeting for the Moscow Civic Association. The next meeting will be on Monday, September 8, 7:30 PM, at the 1912 Building. The program will be a candidate forum for the upcoming elections of City Council members. From MoscowSam@moscow.com Wed Jul 23 17:44:20 2003 From: MoscowSam@moscow.com (MoscowSam) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:44:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] kill pollution-free federal transport programs? Message-ID: <007901c35139$aa3631d0$04fea8c0@ATHLONXPNB> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C350FE.FD943650 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sam Scripter Here is a topic other than "Christ Church" about which no one has "spoken" recently. Take a look at this! Congress to bikers: Get a car A house subcommittee has voted to cut all funding for bike paths and other pollution-free transportation programs. Full story here: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/22/bike_paths/index_np.html ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C350FE.FD943650 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Sam = Scripter
 
Here is a topic other than "Christ = Church"=20 about which no one
has "spoken" = recently.
 
Take a look at = this!
 
Congress to bikers: Get a = car
A house subcommittee has voted to cut all funding for bike = paths and=20 other pollution-free transportation programs.
 
Full story here:
 
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/22/bike_paths/index_np.ht= ml
------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C350FE.FD943650-- From nielsen@uidaho.edu Wed Jul 23 17:51:18 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:51:18 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] John Ashcroft School of Prosecution In-Reply-To: <20030722220001.45661.79653.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: > From: Gregory Dickison > Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 11:59:24 AM US/Pacific > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tax Code > > > Dear Visionaries: > > Mr. Bartnick follows a formula seen too often on this forum: repeat a > rumour > or false allegation to the masses, then demand that the accused > explain it. > Looks like he went to the John Ashcroft School of Prosecution. > > Cheers, > > Gregory C. Dickison > Lawyer & Counselor at Law > Post Office Box 8846 > 312 South Main Street > Moscow, Idaho 83843 > (208) 882-4009 Dear Visionaries: Isn't John Ashcroft a born-again Christian? Doesn't he have intimate chats with both God and Jesus every morning before settling down to work? How can he do anything wrong with such connections? Ralph Nielsen Moscow From tomh@uidaho.edu Wed Jul 23 17:51:07 2003 From: tomh@uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:51:07 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] kill pollution-free federal transport programs? Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FF2@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3513A.9C87BBC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Greetings Visionaires - I see by Mr. Scripter's posting that George W's environmental program has finally reached out and touched Moscow (cough, cough). Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: MoscowSam [mailto:MoscowSam@moscow.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:44 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] kill pollution-free federal transport programs? From: Sam Scripter Here is a topic other than "Christ Church" about which no one has "spoken" recently. Take a look at this! Congress to bikers: Get a car A house subcommittee has voted to cut all funding for bike paths and other pollution-free transportation programs. Full story here: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/22/bike_paths/index_np.html ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3513A.9C87BBC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings Visionaires -
 
I see=20 by Mr. Scripter's posting that George W's environmental program has = finally=20 reached out and touched Moscow (cough, cough).
 
Tom=20 Hansen
-----Original Message-----
From: MoscowSam=20 [mailto:MoscowSam@moscow.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2003 9:44=20 AM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: = [Vision2020] kill=20 pollution-free federal transport programs?

From: Sam = Scripter
 
Here is a topic other than "Christ = Church"=20 about which no one
has "spoken" = recently.
 
Take a look at = this!
 
Congress to bikers: Get a = car
A house subcommittee has voted to cut all funding for bike = paths and=20 other pollution-free transportation programs.
 
Full story here:
 
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/22/bike_paths/index_np= .html
------_=_NextPart_001_01C3513A.9C87BBC0-- From timlohr@yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 18:41:11 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE Message-ID: <20030723174111.17204.qmail@web10909.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, How do all you loyal Democrat/Clintonistas explain ole Bill's taking up for Dub? Think he's trying to embarrass some of the Democrat Pres. candidates he doesn't like? Why would he do that? Is he trying to make sure that W is re-elected so his wife won't have a sittind Democrat obstacle when she runs in '08? How do you analyze? TL CLINTON SAYS BUSH'S URANIUM MISTAKE IS UNDERSTANDABLE Copyright İ 2003 Nando Media Copyright İ 2003 AP Online The Associated Press WASHINGTON (July 22, 7:07 p.m. ADT) - President Bush's erroneous reference to an Iraqi-Africa uranium link was understandable, former President Clinton said Tuesday, in part because Saddam Hussein's regime had not accounted for some weapons by the time Clinton ended his term in 2001. Clinton's comments reinforce one of the pillars of Bush's defense of the war in Iraq - that his Democratic predecessor was never satisfied that Saddam had rid himself of weapons of mass destruction. "When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for," Clinton said on CNN's "Larry King Live." Clinton said he never found out whether a U.S.-British bombing campaign he ordered in 1998 ended Saddam's capability of producing chemical and biological weapons. "We might have gotten it all, we might have gotten half of it, we might have gotten none of it," he said. In his State of the Union speech in February justifying the planned war in Iraq, Bush referred to British intelligence reports that Saddam had tried to purchase uranium for nuclear weapons production. His administration says it now believes those reports were based in part on forged documents. Clinton confined his remarks to biological and chemical weapons, and did not say whether he would consider credible any report that Saddam had wanted to build a nuclear weapons program. Nonetheless, he suggested that Bush's mistake was par for the course - and that it was time to move on now that Bush had acknowledged the error. "You know, everybody makes mistakes when they are president," he said. "I mean, you can't make as many calls as you have to without messing up once in a while. The thing we ought to be focused on is what is the right thing to do now." Clinton said ending tensions in Iraq should be the priority now - another echo of the current White House's talking points. "We should be pulling for America on this. We should be pulling for the people of Iraq." Clinton made his remarks as a call-in guest on a program observing the 80th birthday of Bob Dole, his rival for the White House in 1996. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From tomh@uidaho.edu Wed Jul 23 18:50:11 2003 From: tomh@uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:50:11 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FF3@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Mr. Lohrmann - I am not a "Clintonista". I support who I believe to be the best candidate. I am not a Democrat. I consider myself to be an independent. I do not fall into party lines. What you are addressing below is a "people" thing. President Bush lied (or, at minimum, misled) the American people. It is that simple. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: Tim Lohrmann [mailto:timlohr@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:41 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE Visionaries, How do all you loyal Democrat/Clintonistas explain ole Bill's taking up for Dub? Think he's trying to embarrass some of the Democrat Pres. candidates he doesn't like? Why would he do that? Is he trying to make sure that W is re-elected so his wife won't have a sittind Democrat obstacle when she runs in '08? How do you analyze? TL CLINTON SAYS BUSH'S URANIUM MISTAKE IS UNDERSTANDABLE Copyright İ 2003 Nando Media Copyright İ 2003 AP Online The Associated Press WASHINGTON (July 22, 7:07 p.m. ADT) - President Bush's erroneous reference to an Iraqi-Africa uranium link was understandable, former President Clinton said Tuesday, in part because Saddam Hussein's regime had not accounted for some weapons by the time Clinton ended his term in 2001. Clinton's comments reinforce one of the pillars of Bush's defense of the war in Iraq - that his Democratic predecessor was never satisfied that Saddam had rid himself of weapons of mass destruction. "When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for," Clinton said on CNN's "Larry King Live." Clinton said he never found out whether a U.S.-British bombing campaign he ordered in 1998 ended Saddam's capability of producing chemical and biological weapons. "We might have gotten it all, we might have gotten half of it, we might have gotten none of it," he said. In his State of the Union speech in February justifying the planned war in Iraq, Bush referred to British intelligence reports that Saddam had tried to purchase uranium for nuclear weapons production. His administration says it now believes those reports were based in part on forged documents. Clinton confined his remarks to biological and chemical weapons, and did not say whether he would consider credible any report that Saddam had wanted to build a nuclear weapons program. Nonetheless, he suggested that Bush's mistake was par for the course - and that it was time to move on now that Bush had acknowledged the error. "You know, everybody makes mistakes when they are president," he said. "I mean, you can't make as many calls as you have to without messing up once in a while. The thing we ought to be focused on is what is the right thing to do now." Clinton said ending tensions in Iraq should be the priority now - another echo of the current White House's talking points. "We should be pulling for America on this. We should be pulling for the people of Iraq." Clinton made his remarks as a call-in guest on a program observing the 80th birthday of Bob Dole, his rival for the White House in 1996. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From dale@courtneys.us Wed Jul 23 18:53:03 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:53:03 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow Civic Association In-Reply-To: <3F1EBA35.86E7DB6A@moscow.com> Message-ID: <200307231755.h6NHtoQU044854@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C35108.9B8DB710 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002A_01C35108.9B8DB710" ------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C35108.9B8DB710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill asks:=20 > LOGO CONTEST FOR $100 PRIZE: > The Moscow Civic Association is soliciting entries in a > contest for a logo for the organization. Guidelines: an 8=BD x > 11 black and white copy (can be in color, if it will also > print well in black and white). Mail to Moscow Civic > Association, PO Box 8788, Moscow, ID 83843. Deadline Aug. 1, 2003. MCA Well, this was the first thing that came to mind.=20 Best, Dale ------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C35108.9B8DB710 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill asks: =

> LOGO CONTEST FOR $100 PRIZE:
> The Moscow = Civic=20 Association is soliciting entries in a
> contest for a logo for = the=20 organization.  Guidelines: an 8=BD x
> 11 black and white = copy (can be=20 in color, if it will also
> print well in black and white).  = Mail to=20 Moscow Civic
> Association, PO Box 8788, Moscow, ID 83843.  = Deadline=20 Aug. 1, 2003.
3DMCA

Well, this was the first thing that came to mind. =

Best,
Dale

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Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE In-Reply-To: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FF3@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <20030723175425.66595.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> Tom, Fine, but why do you think the guy who is arguably still(as its most famous and recognizable figure) the leader of the Demo party speaking out now to excuse this Bushian behavior? TL --- Thomas Hansen wrote: > Mr. Lohrmann - > > I am not a "Clintonista". I support who I believe > to be the best candidate. > I am not a Democrat. I consider myself to be an > independent. I do not fall > into party lines. > > What you are addressing below is a "people" thing. > President Bush lied (or, > at minimum, misled) the American people. It is that > simple. > > Tom Hansen > Moscow, Idaho > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Lohrmann [mailto:timlohr@yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:41 AM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE > UNDERSTANDABLE > > > Visionaries, > How do all you loyal Democrat/Clintonistas > explain > ole Bill's taking up for Dub? > Think he's trying to embarrass some of the > Democrat > Pres. candidates he doesn't like? Why would he do > that? Is he trying to make sure that W is re-elected > so his wife won't have a sittind Democrat obstacle > when she runs in '08? > How do you analyze? > TL > > CLINTON SAYS BUSH'S URANIUM MISTAKE IS > UNDERSTANDABLE > Copyright İ 2003 Nando Media > Copyright İ 2003 AP Online > > The Associated Press > WASHINGTON (July 22, 7:07 p.m. ADT) - President > Bush's > erroneous reference to an Iraqi-Africa uranium link > was understandable, former President Clinton said > Tuesday, in part because Saddam Hussein's regime had > not accounted for some weapons by the time Clinton > ended his term in 2001. > Clinton's comments reinforce one of the pillars of > Bush's defense of the war in Iraq - that his > Democratic predecessor was never satisfied that > Saddam > had rid himself of weapons of mass destruction. > > "When I left office, there was a substantial amount > of > biological and chemical material unaccounted for," > Clinton said on CNN's "Larry King Live." > > Clinton said he never found out whether a > U.S.-British > bombing campaign he ordered in 1998 ended Saddam's > capability of producing chemical and biological > weapons. "We might have gotten it all, we might have > gotten half of it, we might have gotten none of it," > he said. > > In his State of the Union speech in February > justifying the planned war in Iraq, Bush referred to > British intelligence reports that Saddam had tried > to > purchase uranium for nuclear weapons production. His > administration says it now believes those reports > were > based in part on forged documents. > > Clinton confined his remarks to biological and > chemical weapons, and did not say whether he would > consider credible any report that Saddam had wanted > to > build a nuclear weapons program. > > Nonetheless, he suggested that Bush's mistake was > par > for the course - and that it was time to move on now > that Bush had acknowledged the error. > > "You know, everybody makes mistakes when they are > president," he said. "I mean, you can't make as many > calls as you have to without messing up once in a > while. The thing we ought to be focused on is what > is > the right thing to do now." > > Clinton said ending tensions in Iraq should be the > priority now - another echo of the current White > House's talking points. "We should be pulling for > America on this. We should be pulling for the people > of Iraq." > > Clinton made his remarks as a call-in guest on a > program observing the 80th birthday of Bob Dole, his > rival for the White House in 1996. > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > http://search.yahoo.com > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From escape@alt-escape.com Wed Jul 23 18:57:15 2003 From: escape@alt-escape.com (Bob Hoffmann) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:57:15 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE In-Reply-To: <20030723174111.17204.qmail@web10909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723105424.01e11318@mail.turbonet.com> Clinton spent 8 years bombing Iraq. He even wanted to escalate bombing to divert attention from his sex scandals (Now that's an impeachable offense). He is a so-called centrist-Democrat--doesn't mind the use of force internationally, as long as it's the U.S. doing it. Bob At 10:41 AM 7/23/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Visionaries, > How do all you loyal Democrat/Clintonistas explain >ole Bill's taking up for Dub? > Think he's trying to embarrass some of the Democrat >Pres. candidates he doesn't like? Why would he do >that? Is he trying to make sure that W is re-elected >so his wife won't have a sittind Democrat obstacle >when she runs in '08? > How do you analyze? > TL > >CLINTON SAYS BUSH'S URANIUM MISTAKE IS UNDERSTANDABLE >Copyright İ 2003 Nando Media >Copyright İ 2003 AP Online > >The Associated Press >WASHINGTON (July 22, 7:07 p.m. ADT) - President Bush's >erroneous reference to an Iraqi-Africa uranium link >was understandable, former President Clinton said >Tuesday, in part because Saddam Hussein's regime had >not accounted for some weapons by the time Clinton >ended his term in 2001. >Clinton's comments reinforce one of the pillars of >Bush's defense of the war in Iraq - that his >Democratic predecessor was never satisfied that Saddam >had rid himself of weapons of mass destruction. > >"When I left office, there was a substantial amount of >biological and chemical material unaccounted for," >Clinton said on CNN's "Larry King Live." > >Clinton said he never found out whether a U.S.-British >bombing campaign he ordered in 1998 ended Saddam's >capability of producing chemical and biological >weapons. "We might have gotten it all, we might have >gotten half of it, we might have gotten none of it," >he said. > >In his State of the Union speech in February >justifying the planned war in Iraq, Bush referred to >British intelligence reports that Saddam had tried to >purchase uranium for nuclear weapons production. His >administration says it now believes those reports were >based in part on forged documents. > >Clinton confined his remarks to biological and >chemical weapons, and did not say whether he would >consider credible any report that Saddam had wanted to >build a nuclear weapons program. > >Nonetheless, he suggested that Bush's mistake was par >for the course - and that it was time to move on now >that Bush had acknowledged the error. > >"You know, everybody makes mistakes when they are >president," he said. "I mean, you can't make as many >calls as you have to without messing up once in a >while. The thing we ought to be focused on is what is >the right thing to do now." > >Clinton said ending tensions in Iraq should be the >priority now - another echo of the current White >House's talking points. "We should be pulling for >America on this. We should be pulling for the people >of Iraq." > >Clinton made his remarks as a call-in guest on a >program observing the 80th birthday of Bob Dole, his >rival for the White House in 1996. > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. >http://search.yahoo.com > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 From tomh@uidaho.edu Wed Jul 23 19:03:59 2003 From: tomh@uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:03:59 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow Civic Association Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FF5@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C35144.CA8C3C80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C35144.CA8C3C80" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35144.CA8C3C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings Visionaires - =20 It seems that Mr. London's Moscow Civic Association logo contest = affords us two options: =20 1) We can take the time to design a logo (indiviually or otherwise) depicting our geat community and its diverse cutlures, people, etc. or =20 2) We can throw together a piece of garbage (thinking it is funny) to ridicule the local community, ultimately reflecting the designer's lack = of maturity. =20 Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho =20 -----Original Message----- From: Dale Courtney [mailto:dale@courtneys.us] Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:53 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Moscow Civic Association Bill asks:=20 > LOGO CONTEST FOR $100 PRIZE: > The Moscow Civic Association is soliciting entries in a > contest for a logo for the organization. Guidelines: an 8=BD x > 11 black and white copy (can be in color, if it will also > print well in black and white). Mail to Moscow Civic > Association, PO Box 8788, Moscow, ID 83843. Deadline Aug. 1, 2003. MCA Well, this was the first thing that came to mind.=20 Best, Dale ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35144.CA8C3C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings Visionaires -
 
It=20 seems that Mr. London's Moscow Civic Association logo contest affords = us two=20 options:
 
1)  We can take the time to design a logo (indiviually or = otherwise)=20 depicting our geat community and its diverse cutlures, people, etc.=20 or
 
2)  We can throw together a piece of garbage (thinking it = is funny)=20 to ridicule the local community, ultimately reflecting the designer's = lack of=20 maturity.
 
Tom=20 Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Courtney=20 [mailto:dale@courtneys.us]
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 = 10:53=20 AM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: = [Vision2020]=20 Moscow Civic Association

Bill asks: =

> LOGO CONTEST FOR $100 PRIZE:
> The = Moscow Civic=20 Association is soliciting entries in a
> contest for a logo for = the=20 organization.  Guidelines: an 8=BD x
> 11 black and white = copy (can=20 be in color, if it will also
> print well in black and = white). =20 Mail to Moscow Civic
> Association, PO Box 8788, Moscow, ID = 83843. =20 Deadline Aug. 1, 2003.
3DMCA

Well, this was the first thing that came to mind. =

Best,
Dale

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sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Wed Jul 23 18:59:23 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:59:23 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE Message-ID:

Tim,

You're not supporting the simple-minded idea that everyone who voted for Clinton supported everything he did, are you?  No, of course not.  I voted for him twice, and I disagreed with his bombing of Iraq.  Why is he taking up for Dub?  I don't know, but I disagree with his position entirely. 

The fact that the White House has either lied several times about this issue, or doesn't seem to know what intelligence they have received is merely one part of this.  Let's also set aside the rebutted claim about the significance of the aluminum tubes Iraq purchased.

More important is the fact that this Administration claims the right to launch pre-emptive wars against supposed threats.  We were told that Iraq was an imminent threat.  Now it should be clear to all that it was not such a threat.  Observe how Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs has morphed into a weapons program, quite different from having actual weapons.  Now the Administration asks for patience as it searches for alleged WMDs.  Where was their patience prior to war?

How can we trust that other threats are imminent when the Administration is so willing to be cavalier with the truth?

Sunil Ramalingam


Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From timlohr@yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 19:20:10 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030723182010.75968.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Sunil and Bob, I posted this because I'm interested in why ole Bill is doing this. Say what you want about him, but Clinton is nothing if not a master of politics. I disagree with Bob that Clinton is not thinking about electoral politics on this. Of course he won't campaign for Bush, but he's got some reason for excusing what the NATIONAL DEMOCRAT PARTY has openly viewed as their best chance to erode some of the voter approval of W's foreign policy. (And not only that, from glancing at polls now and then it seemed to be working for them.) EVERYTHING Clinton has done since he entered puberty is about politics. (OK just about everything--I mean his PUBLIC pronouncements, folks!) This is certainly no different. It's all calculated. But why? TL --- Sunil Ramalingam wrote: --------------------------------- Tim, You're not supporting the simple-minded idea that everyone who voted for Clinton supported everything he did, are you? No, of course not. I voted for him twice, and I disagreed with his bombing of Iraq. Why is he taking up for Dub? I don't know, but I disagree with his position entirely. The fact that the White House has either lied several times about this issue, or doesn't seem to know what intelligence they have received is merely one part of this. Let's also set aside the rebutted claim about the significance of the aluminum tubes Iraq purchased. More important is the fact that this Administration claims the right to launch pre-emptive wars against supposed threats. We were told that Iraq was an imminent threat. Now it should be clear to all that it was not such a threat. Observe how Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs has morphed into a weapons program, quite different from having actual weapons. Now the Administration asks for patience as it searches for alleged WMDs. Where was their patience prior to war? How can we trust that other threats are imminent when the Administration is so willing to be cavalier with the truth? Sunil Ramalingam --------------------------------- Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*._____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Wed Jul 23 19:26:28 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:26:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE Message-ID: Bill Clinton made the comment during an 80th birthday celebration for his old rival Bob Dole. It may well have been made in the spirit of "reaching out". Are all Democrats or independents who voted for Bill Clinton "Clintonistas"? I voted for him twice, and also disagreed with some of his actions while in the White House. I disagree with his defense of Bush now. But, as the quote goes, "I don't belong to any organized party, I'm a Democrat." To suggest that we all somehow march in lockstep with one another is like saying that all conservatives adhere to the rantings of Ann Coulter. Carl Westberg Jr. >From: Tim Lohrmann >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:41:11 -0700 (PDT) > >Visionaries, > How do all you loyal Democrat/Clintonistas explain >ole Bill's taking up for Dub? > Think he's trying to embarrass some of the Democrat >Pres. candidates he doesn't like? Why would he do >that? Is he trying to make sure that W is re-elected >so his wife won't have a sittind Democrat obstacle >when she runs in '08? > How do you analyze? > TL > >CLINTON SAYS BUSH'S URANIUM MISTAKE IS UNDERSTANDABLE >Copyright İ 2003 Nando Media >Copyright İ 2003 AP Online > >The Associated Press >WASHINGTON (July 22, 7:07 p.m. ADT) - President Bush's >erroneous reference to an Iraqi-Africa uranium link >was understandable, former President Clinton said >Tuesday, in part because Saddam Hussein's regime had >not accounted for some weapons by the time Clinton >ended his term in 2001. >Clinton's comments reinforce one of the pillars of >Bush's defense of the war in Iraq - that his >Democratic predecessor was never satisfied that Saddam >had rid himself of weapons of mass destruction. > >"When I left office, there was a substantial amount of >biological and chemical material unaccounted for," >Clinton said on CNN's "Larry King Live." > >Clinton said he never found out whether a U.S.-British >bombing campaign he ordered in 1998 ended Saddam's >capability of producing chemical and biological >weapons. "We might have gotten it all, we might have >gotten half of it, we might have gotten none of it," >he said. > >In his State of the Union speech in February >justifying the planned war in Iraq, Bush referred to >British intelligence reports that Saddam had tried to >purchase uranium for nuclear weapons production. His >administration says it now believes those reports were >based in part on forged documents. > >Clinton confined his remarks to biological and >chemical weapons, and did not say whether he would >consider credible any report that Saddam had wanted to >build a nuclear weapons program. > >Nonetheless, he suggested that Bush's mistake was par >for the course - and that it was time to move on now >that Bush had acknowledged the error. > >"You know, everybody makes mistakes when they are >president," he said. "I mean, you can't make as many >calls as you have to without messing up once in a >while. The thing we ought to be focused on is what is >the right thing to do now." > >Clinton said ending tensions in Iraq should be the >priority now - another echo of the current White >House's talking points. "We should be pulling for >America on this. We should be pulling for the people >of Iraq." > >Clinton made his remarks as a call-in guest on a >program observing the 80th birthday of Bob Dole, his >rival for the White House in 1996. > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. >http://search.yahoo.com > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From timlohr@yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 19:38:29 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030723183829.70974.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Carl, I'm sorry if I implied all Democrats were Clintonistas. The "/" I put between the terms "Loyal Democrats" and "Clintonista" were meant to show that these were two different clans. I should have used the term "and" instead of the "/" to make myself clearer. (Does this remind you of Clinton's statement that "it depends on what the meaning of "is" is?) But you can't deny that many Loyal Demos were the first to support and defend ole Billy boy and algore during their many ethically challenged fundraising and legal adventures. Is it time now for Democrats to heave him overboard and "distance" themselves from him or maybe even (gasp) "move on" from the Clinton era? TL --- Carl Westberg wrote: > Bill Clinton made the comment during an 80th > birthday celebration for his > old rival Bob Dole. It may well have been made in > the spirit of "reaching > out". Are all Democrats or independents who voted > for Bill Clinton > "Clintonistas"? I voted for him twice, and also > disagreed with some of his > actions while in the White House. I disagree with > his defense of Bush now. > But, as the quote goes, "I don't belong to any > organized party, I'm a > Democrat." To suggest that we all somehow march in > lockstep with one > another is like saying that all conservatives adhere > to the rantings of Ann > Coulter. > > > > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE > UNDERSTANDABLE > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:41:11 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Visionaries, > > How do all you loyal Democrat/Clintonistas > explain > >ole Bill's taking up for Dub? > > Think he's trying to embarrass some of the > Democrat > >Pres. candidates he doesn't like? Why would he do > >that? Is he trying to make sure that W is > re-elected > >so his wife won't have a sittind Democrat obstacle > >when she runs in '08? > > How do you analyze? > > TL > > > >CLINTON SAYS BUSH'S URANIUM MISTAKE IS > UNDERSTANDABLE > >Copyright İ 2003 Nando Media > >Copyright İ 2003 AP Online > > > >The Associated Press > >WASHINGTON (July 22, 7:07 p.m. ADT) - President > Bush's > >erroneous reference to an Iraqi-Africa uranium link > >was understandable, former President Clinton said > >Tuesday, in part because Saddam Hussein's regime > had > >not accounted for some weapons by the time Clinton > >ended his term in 2001. > >Clinton's comments reinforce one of the pillars of > >Bush's defense of the war in Iraq - that his > >Democratic predecessor was never satisfied that > Saddam > >had rid himself of weapons of mass destruction. > > > >"When I left office, there was a substantial amount > of > >biological and chemical material unaccounted for," > >Clinton said on CNN's "Larry King Live." > > > >Clinton said he never found out whether a > U.S.-British > >bombing campaign he ordered in 1998 ended Saddam's > >capability of producing chemical and biological > >weapons. "We might have gotten it all, we might > have > >gotten half of it, we might have gotten none of > it," > >he said. > > > >In his State of the Union speech in February > >justifying the planned war in Iraq, Bush referred > to > >British intelligence reports that Saddam had tried > to > >purchase uranium for nuclear weapons production. > His > >administration says it now believes those reports > were > >based in part on forged documents. > > > >Clinton confined his remarks to biological and > >chemical weapons, and did not say whether he would > >consider credible any report that Saddam had wanted > to > >build a nuclear weapons program. > > > >Nonetheless, he suggested that Bush's mistake was > par > >for the course - and that it was time to move on > now > >that Bush had acknowledged the error. > > > >"You know, everybody makes mistakes when they are > >president," he said. "I mean, you can't make as > many > >calls as you have to without messing up once in a > >while. The thing we ought to be focused on is what > is > >the right thing to do now." > > > >Clinton said ending tensions in Iraq should be the > >priority now - another echo of the current White > >House's talking points. "We should be pulling for > >America on this. We should be pulling for the > people > >of Iraq." > > > >Clinton made his remarks as a call-in guest on a > >program observing the 80th birthday of Bob Dole, > his > >rival for the White House in 1996. > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > >http://search.yahoo.com > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months > FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From escape@alt-escape.com Wed Jul 23 19:58:49 2003 From: escape@alt-escape.com (Bob Hoffmann) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:58:49 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow Civic Association In-Reply-To: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FF5@daffy.dfm.uidaho.ed u> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723115738.01cd9788@mail.turbonet.com> --=====================_16504046==.REL Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I dunno. Dale's submission made me laugh quite heartily, although as an=20 MCA supporter, I wouldn't actually vote for his design. Bob At 11:03 AM 7/23/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Greetings Visionaires - > >It seems that Mr. London's Moscow Civic Association logo contest affords=20 >us two options: > >1) We can take the time to design a logo (indiviually or otherwise)=20 >depicting our geat community and its diverse cutlures, people, etc. or > >2) We can throw together a piece of garbage (thinking it is funny) to=20 >ridicule the local community, ultimately reflecting the designer's lack of= =20 >maturity. > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dale Courtney [mailto:dale@courtneys.us] >Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:53 AM >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Moscow Civic Association > >Bill asks: > > > LOGO CONTEST FOR $100 PRIZE: > > The Moscow Civic Association is soliciting entries in a > > contest for a logo for the organization. Guidelines: an 8=BD x > > 11 black and white copy (can be in color, if it will also > > print well in black and white). Mail to Moscow Civic > > Association, PO Box 8788, Moscow, ID 83843. Deadline Aug. 1, 2003. >fbc9e2.jpg > >Well, this was the first thing that came to mind. > >Best, >Dale > Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642=20 --=====================_16504046==.REL Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="fbc9e2.jpg"; x-mac-type="4A504547"; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723115738.01cd9788@mail.turbonet.com.0> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="fbc9e2.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/2wBDAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/wAARCAABAAEDASIA AhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQA AAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3 ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWm p6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEA AwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREAAgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSEx BhJBUQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYkNOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZHSElK U1RVVldYWVpjZGVmZ2hpanN0dXZ3eHl6goOEhYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3 uLm6wsPExcbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4uPk5ebn6Onq8vP09fb3+Pn6/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwD/AD/6 KKKAP//Z --=====================_16504046==.REL-- From thansen@moscow.com Wed Jul 23 20:27:18 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:27:18 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE In-Reply-To: <20030723183829.70974.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Maybe Bill Clinton and/or Al Gore were wrong with their " . . . ethically challenged fundraising and legal adventures", this does not lend credence to the misguided concept, "He was unethical, therefor I can lie to the people." If either (or both) of the presidents led the American people astray, they are wrong and do not desrve the respect and/or trust of the American people. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:38 AM > To: Carl Westberg > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE > > > Carl, > I'm sorry if I implied all Democrats were > Clintonistas. The "/" I put between the terms "Loyal > Democrats" and "Clintonista" were meant to show that > these were two different clans. I should have used the > term "and" instead of the "/" to make myself clearer. > (Does this remind you of Clinton's statement that "it > depends on what the meaning of "is" is?) > But you can't deny that many Loyal Demos were the > first to support and defend ole Billy boy and algore > during their many ethically challenged fundraising and > legal adventures. > Is it time now for Democrats to heave him overboard > and "distance" themselves from him or maybe even > (gasp) "move on" from the Clinton era? > TL > > > --- Carl Westberg wrote: > > Bill Clinton made the comment during an 80th > > birthday celebration for his > > old rival Bob Dole. It may well have been made in > > the spirit of "reaching > > out". Are all Democrats or independents who voted > > for Bill Clinton > > "Clintonistas"? I voted for him twice, and also > > disagreed with some of his > > actions while in the White House. I disagree with > > his defense of Bush now. > > But, as the quote goes, "I don't belong to any > > organized party, I'm a > > Democrat." To suggest that we all somehow march in > > lockstep with one > > another is like saying that all conservatives adhere > > to the rantings of Ann > > Coulter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > > > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > > >Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE > > UNDERSTANDABLE > > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:41:11 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >Visionaries, > > > How do all you loyal Democrat/Clintonistas > > explain > > >ole Bill's taking up for Dub? > > > Think he's trying to embarrass some of the > > Democrat > > >Pres. candidates he doesn't like? Why would he do > > >that? Is he trying to make sure that W is > > re-elected > > >so his wife won't have a sittind Democrat obstacle > > >when she runs in '08? > > > How do you analyze? > > > TL > > > > > >CLINTON SAYS BUSH'S URANIUM MISTAKE IS > > UNDERSTANDABLE > > >Copyright ) 2003 Nando Media > > >Copyright ) 2003 AP Online > > > > > >The Associated Press > > >WASHINGTON (July 22, 7:07 p.m. ADT) - President > > Bush's > > >erroneous reference to an Iraqi-Africa uranium link > > >was understandable, former President Clinton said > > >Tuesday, in part because Saddam Hussein's regime > > had > > >not accounted for some weapons by the time Clinton > > >ended his term in 2001. > > >Clinton's comments reinforce one of the pillars of > > >Bush's defense of the war in Iraq - that his > > >Democratic predecessor was never satisfied that > > Saddam > > >had rid himself of weapons of mass destruction. > > > > > >"When I left office, there was a substantial amount > > of > > >biological and chemical material unaccounted for," > > >Clinton said on CNN's "Larry King Live." > > > > > >Clinton said he never found out whether a > > U.S.-British > > >bombing campaign he ordered in 1998 ended Saddam's > > >capability of producing chemical and biological > > >weapons. "We might have gotten it all, we might > > have > > >gotten half of it, we might have gotten none of > > it," > > >he said. > > > > > >In his State of the Union speech in February > > >justifying the planned war in Iraq, Bush referred > > to > > >British intelligence reports that Saddam had tried > > to > > >purchase uranium for nuclear weapons production. > > His > > >administration says it now believes those reports > > were > > >based in part on forged documents. > > > > > >Clinton confined his remarks to biological and > > >chemical weapons, and did not say whether he would > > >consider credible any report that Saddam had wanted > > to > > >build a nuclear weapons program. > > > > > >Nonetheless, he suggested that Bush's mistake was > > par > > >for the course - and that it was time to move on > > now > > >that Bush had acknowledged the error. > > > > > >"You know, everybody makes mistakes when they are > > >president," he said. "I mean, you can't make as > > many > > >calls as you have to without messing up once in a > > >while. The thing we ought to be focused on is what > > is > > >the right thing to do now." > > > > > >Clinton said ending tensions in Iraq should be the > > >priority now - another echo of the current White > > >House's talking points. "We should be pulling for > > >America on this. We should be pulling for the > > people > > >of Iraq." > > > > > >Clinton made his remarks as a call-in guest on a > > >program observing the 80th birthday of Bob Dole, > > his > > >rival for the White House in 1996. > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > > >Do you Yahoo!? > > >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > > >http://search.yahoo.com > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step > > Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > 1994. > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > >///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months > > FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step > > Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jul 23 20:32:41 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:32:41 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE Message-ID: While I did not like Clinton as a person, or shall I say his lack of being one, I would gladly have Clinton again over this war mongering, environmentially damaging, lying, murdering, economy destroying president that we have now. I don't care about campaign finance reform or adultry, or anything else of that matter. I care about the welfare of people, the environment, and the economy. That is about it. We are worse off then we were 4 years ago, regardless of what we personally think about the personalities of Clinton of Bush. Donovan J Arnold >From: Tim Lohrmann >To: Carl Westberg >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:38:29 -0700 (PDT) > >Carl, > I'm sorry if I implied all Democrats were >Clintonistas. The "/" I put between the terms "Loyal >Democrats" and "Clintonista" were meant to show that >these were two different clans. I should have used the >term "and" instead of the "/" to make myself clearer. >(Does this remind you of Clinton's statement that "it >depends on what the meaning of "is" is?) > But you can't deny that many Loyal Demos were the >first to support and defend ole Billy boy and algore >during their many ethically challenged fundraising and >legal adventures. > Is it time now for Democrats to heave him overboard >and "distance" themselves from him or maybe even >(gasp) "move on" from the Clinton era? > TL > > >--- Carl Westberg wrote: > > Bill Clinton made the comment during an 80th > > birthday celebration for his > > old rival Bob Dole. It may well have been made in > > the spirit of "reaching > > out". Are all Democrats or independents who voted > > for Bill Clinton > > "Clintonistas"? I voted for him twice, and also > > disagreed with some of his > > actions while in the White House. I disagree with > > his defense of Bush now. > > But, as the quote goes, "I don't belong to any > > organized party, I'm a > > Democrat." To suggest that we all somehow march in > > lockstep with one > > another is like saying that all conservatives adhere > > to the rantings of Ann > > Coulter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > > > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > > >Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE > > UNDERSTANDABLE > > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:41:11 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >Visionaries, > > > How do all you loyal Democrat/Clintonistas > > explain > > >ole Bill's taking up for Dub? > > > Think he's trying to embarrass some of the > > Democrat > > >Pres. candidates he doesn't like? Why would he do > > >that? Is he trying to make sure that W is > > re-elected > > >so his wife won't have a sittind Democrat obstacle > > >when she runs in '08? > > > How do you analyze? > > > TL > > > > > >CLINTON SAYS BUSH'S URANIUM MISTAKE IS > > UNDERSTANDABLE > > >Copyright İ 2003 Nando Media > > >Copyright İ 2003 AP Online > > > > > >The Associated Press > > >WASHINGTON (July 22, 7:07 p.m. ADT) - President > > Bush's > > >erroneous reference to an Iraqi-Africa uranium link > > >was understandable, former President Clinton said > > >Tuesday, in part because Saddam Hussein's regime > > had > > >not accounted for some weapons by the time Clinton > > >ended his term in 2001. > > >Clinton's comments reinforce one of the pillars of > > >Bush's defense of the war in Iraq - that his > > >Democratic predecessor was never satisfied that > > Saddam > > >had rid himself of weapons of mass destruction. > > > > > >"When I left office, there was a substantial amount > > of > > >biological and chemical material unaccounted for," > > >Clinton said on CNN's "Larry King Live." > > > > > >Clinton said he never found out whether a > > U.S.-British > > >bombing campaign he ordered in 1998 ended Saddam's > > >capability of producing chemical and biological > > >weapons. "We might have gotten it all, we might > > have > > >gotten half of it, we might have gotten none of > > it," > > >he said. > > > > > >In his State of the Union speech in February > > >justifying the planned war in Iraq, Bush referred > > to > > >British intelligence reports that Saddam had tried > > to > > >purchase uranium for nuclear weapons production. > > His > > >administration says it now believes those reports > > were > > >based in part on forged documents. > > > > > >Clinton confined his remarks to biological and > > >chemical weapons, and did not say whether he would > > >consider credible any report that Saddam had wanted > > to > > >build a nuclear weapons program. > > > > > >Nonetheless, he suggested that Bush's mistake was > > par > > >for the course - and that it was time to move on > > now > > >that Bush had acknowledged the error. > > > > > >"You know, everybody makes mistakes when they are > > >president," he said. "I mean, you can't make as > > many > > >calls as you have to without messing up once in a > > >while. The thing we ought to be focused on is what > > is > > >the right thing to do now." > > > > > >Clinton said ending tensions in Iraq should be the > > >priority now - another echo of the current White > > >House's talking points. "We should be pulling for > > >America on this. We should be pulling for the > > people > > >of Iraq." > > > > > >Clinton made his remarks as a call-in guest on a > > >program observing the 80th birthday of Bob Dole, > > his > > >rival for the White House in 1996. > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > > >Do you Yahoo!? > > >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > > >http://search.yahoo.com > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step > > Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > 1994. > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months > > FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step > > Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From gdickison@moscow.com Wed Jul 23 20:52:35 2003 From: gdickison@moscow.com (Gregory Dickison) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:52:35 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Tax Codes / Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030722154511.01c45710@mail.moscow.com> <3F1DD985.508DAE3B@moscow.com> <002701c3511a$4ffbafc0$6501a8c0@wireless.fsr.net> Message-ID: <000e01c35153$f6998ee0$6501a8c0@wireless.fsr.net> Dear Visionaries: I was asked in a private e-mail the source of Verizon's property tax exemption. I initially got the information from a title report, which stated that no taxes were assessed, and that they were exempt. When I looked in the Idaho Code in response to the question in order to find the specific statutory basis for the exemption, it was not there. Further research, and a conversation with Steve Fiscus, revealed that Verizon did in fact pay property taxes, but they were assessed and paid at the State level. Thus, the county never assessed the property or collected taxes locally. In short, I was wrong when I said Verizon paid no property taxes. My apologies to all, and Bill London in particular. Cheers, Gregory C. Dickison Lawyer & Counselor at Law Post Office Box 8846 312 South Main Street Moscow, Idaho 83843 (208) 882-4009 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Dickison" To: "Vision 2020" Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 5:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tax Codes > Dear Visionaries: > > Bill says that I "implied" that he was wrong about his understanding of the > tax situation. I did not imply it, I said it out loud. Bill then says that > it "seems" that I was denying that NSA took advantage of a property tax > exemption. I was doing no such thing. False assumptions are what started > this thread in the first place. How it is that the writer's clear statements > turn into implications and the reader's or observer's unfounded assumptions > turn into hard facts is beyond me. > > But since Bill actually did the investigation I invited him to do, I will > expand on what was wrong with his letter to the editor. > > Bill said, "When educational and religious organizations purchase property > and remove that property from the tax rolls, the other taxpayers have to pay > more to maintain governmental services." NSA did not remove any property > from the tax roles. Before NSA bought the building, it was owned by > Verizon/GTE, which paid no property taxes. NSA has simply substituted one > form of tax exemption for another, keeping the status quo. If anything, NSA > has increased the amount of property taxes being paid, lessening the burden > on the other taxpayers. I would think this would be happy news. > > Bill said, "In exchange, those educational and religious organizations are > assumed to be doing good works that benefit the community." He then says in > his recent post, "Now, I am starting to wonder what else we are getting for > this generous property tax exemption...." Tax exemptions of whatever kind > are granted to certain organizations because their missions are inherently > beneficial to the community. The organizations are not required to submit an > additional check list of "good works" that they will do to justify the > exemption. But even if I were to grant Bill's point, NSA meets the test in > at least two ways: providing restrooms to the Farmers' Market, and providing > Diversity in Educational Choice. > > Now, I do agree that NSA (and Christ Church, and anyone else with a > Christian mission) has an obligation to do good works and to benefit Moscow. > But that is because they are part of the body of Christ, and not because of > some crass financial quid pro quo with the civil government. > > Cheers, > > Gregory C. Dickison > Lawyer & Counselor at Law > Post Office Box 8846 > 312 South Main Street > Moscow, Idaho 83843 > (208) 882-4009 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill London" > To: "Douglas" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 5:40 PM > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tax Codes > > > > Both Doug Wilson and Greg Dickison responded to my V2020 posting about the > > property tax exemption provided by this community to the buildings owned > by > > Christ Church and New St. Andrews College. > > > > Both Wilson and Dickison (relevant parts of their posts are reprinted > below) > > clearly implied that I was wrong. Their posts are written in a > > seemingly-clever way to make their meaning come through without stating > > anything directly, but it sure seems to me they were denying that their > > organizations took advantage of a property tax exemption in Moscow. > > > > So I called the Latah County Assessor's Office (882-8580) and asked. > > The answer: both Christ Church and New St. Andrews College are taking > > significant property tax exemptions. Here is what I was told by the > > assessor's office personnel: > > > > Christ Church owns the Anselm House at 5th and Washington in Moscow > (actually > > 504 South Washington). That building is 81% tax exempt. The other 19% of > the > > building (the part that is taxed) is rented by the church as office space. > > > > New St. Andrews College owns the former GTE building at Friendship Square > (109 > > West 4th Street). That building is 89.5% exempt. (The taxed part is the > > bakery.) > > > > To provide an idea of the amount of money they save on property taxes, the > tax > > bill for the Anselm House had been $423,000, and now, with the exemption > in > > force, the tax bill is $80,000. > > > > The point I was trying to make in my original post was that non-profit > > religious and educational organizations are entitled to take such tax > > exemptions. But the reason they get those exemptions is that they are > > presumed to be benefitting the community through their good works. > > > > I did thank New St. Andrews College for supplying a public bathroom for > use > > during the Farmers Market. Now, I am starting to wonder what else we are > > getting for this generous property tax exemption, and also wonder why > these > > representatives of the church and college were not more forthcoming and > > direct. > > BL > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > The motto ought not to be "ready, fire, aim!" My suggestion is that we > ask > > > Vera or Bill to run this down for us. We don't want to lend credence to > a > > > method that circulates erroneous information first, and then requires > the > > > misrepresented entities to put it all right. Let's ask those who want to > > > present their concerns to the public to get the facts straight first. > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > > > Douglas > > > > > > > ---------------- > > Gregory Dickison wrote, "By the way, Bill: you are wrong about the tax > > situation. But I will let you look that up." > > > > -------------------- > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From dfrench@moscow.com Wed Jul 23 21:24:28 2003 From: dfrench@moscow.com (French) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:24:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Water Message-ID: <001b01c35158$6adf5920$6401a8c0@Dianne> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C3511D.BE44FEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To the editor: Elsa Kirsten Peters' July 17 letter purports to provide "facts, not = rhetoric" about our groundwater. Unfortunately, her "facts" are more = rhetorical than factual. Ms. Peters claims that water levels in the upper (Wanapum) aquifer "have = done nothing but rise in my lifetime". But a chart in the 2000 Annual = Report of the Palouse Basin Aquifer Committee (PBAC) shows Wanapum = levels between 1976 and 2000 rose twelve years, remained level four = years, and declined eight years. Most of the declining years happened = after 1990, when Moscow increased pumping from the shallow aquifer = because of improved filtration capabilities. Shifting even more pumping = back to the Wanapum now would only accelerate those declines. Ms. Peters also claims that "Most water used in the summer goes to = watering golf courses". The "real" fact is that local golf courses = consume relatively little deep Grande Ronde water. The UI golf course is = watered entirely with effluent from Moscow's wastewater treatment plant. = The Elks course draws from the shallow aquifer that Ms. Peters = (erroneously) claims isn't dropping at all. Irrigation at the WSU golf = course isn't metered, so it can only be estimated. But even if 10% of = WSU pumpage goes to the golf course, that would constitute little more = than 2% of basinwide pumping from the deep aquifer.=20 By contrast, data from the city of Pullman show 75-80% of their annual = water use is residential, the remainder going to commercial and public = uses. If the information were available, Moscow's usage would most = likely mirror Pullman's. Ms. Peters' is correct that "Most water used in = both Moscow and Pullman during the summer is not consumed by 'new = housing developments,'" but residential consumers ARE by far the largest = user group in the basin and should be expected to contribute the = greatest amount to conservation efforts. Bill French, Director = = Palouse Water Conservation Network 202 E 7th St, Moscow, ID 83843 883-3937 * prairiedoc@moscow.com ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C3511D.BE44FEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To the editor:

Elsa Kirsten Peters=92 July 17 letter purports to provide "facts, not = rhetoric"=20 about our groundwater. Unfortunately, her "facts" are more rhetorical = than=20 factual.

Ms. Peters claims that water levels in the upper (Wanapum) aquifer = "have done=20 nothing but rise in my lifetime". But a chart in the 2000 Annual Report = of the=20 Palouse Basin Aquifer Committee (PBAC) shows Wanapum levels between 1976 = and=20 2000 rose twelve years, remained level four years, and declined eight = years.=20 Most of the declining years happened after 1990, when Moscow increased = pumping=20 from the shallow aquifer because of improved filtration capabilities. = Shifting=20 even more pumping back to the Wanapum now would only accelerate those=20 declines.

Ms. Peters also claims that "Most water used in the summer goes to = watering=20 golf courses". The "real" fact is that local golf courses consume = relatively=20 little deep Grande Ronde water. The UI golf course is watered entirely = with=20 effluent from Moscow=92s wastewater treatment plant. The Elks course = draws from=20 the shallow aquifer that Ms. Peters (erroneously) claims isn=92t = dropping at all.=20 Irrigation at the WSU golf course isn=92t metered, so it can only be = estimated.=20 But even if 10% of WSU pumpage goes to the golf course, that would = constitute=20 little more than 2% of basinwide pumping from the deep aquifer.

By contrast, data from the city of Pullman show 75-80% of their = annual water=20 use is residential, the remainder going to commercial and public uses. = If the=20 information were available, Moscow=92s usage would most likely mirror = Pullman=92s.=20 Ms. Peters=92 is correct that "Most water used in both Moscow and = Pullman during=20 the summer is not consumed by =91new housing developments,=92" but = residential=20 consumers ARE by far the largest user group in the basin and should be = expected=20 to contribute the greatest amount to conservation efforts.

Bill French,=20 Director           = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;         =20 Palouse Water Conservation Network

202 E 7th St, Moscow, ID  83843

883-3937 * prairiedoc@moscow.com

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C3511D.BE44FEC0-- From joshuahendrik@yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 22:43:15 2003 From: joshuahendrik@yahoo.com (Joshua Nieuwsma) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Government killing, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030723214315.91955.qmail@web41010.mail.yahoo.com> --0-730431058-1058996595=:91799 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mr. Arnold wrote: "First, I don't buy the concept that government sanctioned killing is a law of God. From my understating God was very forgiving, and said let vengeance be his, not ours. We have every right to protect ourselves from people that may do us harm. But the death penalty is not protecting us, it is only used as an act of vengeance." God is merciful, but requires justice to be done. The death penalty is part of our protection. Every society (ignoring of course those that have corrupt officials since that eliminates the possibility of true justice) that has a consistently applied death penalty always has lower crime and safer streets. No matter how much you liberals want to deny it, fear of a quick, speedy trial for murder, with the unbreakable promise of death at the other end, is a strong deterrent for the criminal who would otherwise kill for some money. Mr. Arnold goes on: "Second, it contradicts itself and generates more sin and violations of Gods law. If a jury, a judge, and a prosecutor convict and send a person to death for a murder they did not commit, are they not sending a person to death that is innocent? If so, then are they not committing a murder if they intentionally kill a person that is innocent? Under God's law, thou shall not kill, they have broken this. In doing such they are now themselves murderers. One could argue that the jury did not know for sure that the person did or did not really commit the crime. Which brings me to my point, only God can actually know this, so therefore, it is he, and he alone, that should take vengeance..." Mr. Arnold, you are in effect presuming to tell God what to do. And yet your email is full of this "leave it to God to sort out" stuff. God says in His Word very clearly that the man who spills innocent blood shall have his own blood spilled. And if by rare chance (and it is very very rare) a man is killed who was truly innocent of the crime, then those who sentenced him, if they did it knowingly, will be punished. But if unknowingly, there is probably no guilt for the judge and jury, because they are to listen to the witnesses and make a decision. If their decision was mislead because the witness was a lie, so be it. They did their God-given duty. God has given the state the power of the sword to punish wrongdoers. And God was not speaking merely of the flat of the sword for beating. Rather He requires the state to use the sharp edge against the wicked throat. It is not a matter of killing, it is a matter of who is killed. A wicked man, who has murdered, has forfeited his God-given right to live, and his life is to be taken from him. The primary reason for that is justice, not deterrent. Even if all the murderers in the world were encouraged when one of their number was killed for murder, that would still not be a reason to refuse to obey God and put that murderer to death. Any man who takes innocent life shall lose his own. Actions have consequences because God says so, not because it makes us feel just and wise (or in mr. arnold's case, sick). cheers, Joshua Nieuwsma --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-730431058-1058996595=:91799 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Mr. Arnold wrote:

"First, I don't buy the concept that government sanctioned killing is a law
of God. From my understating God was very forgiving, and said let vengeance
be his, not ours. We have every right to protect ourselves from people that
may do us harm. But the death penalty is not protecting us, it is only used
as an act of vengeance."
 
God is merciful, but requires justice to be done. The death penalty is part of our protection. Every society (ignoring of course those that have corrupt officials since that eliminates the possibility of true justice) that has a consistently applied death penalty always has lower crime and safer streets. No matter how much you liberals want to deny it, fear of a quick, speedy trial for murder, with the unbreakable promise of death at the other end, is a strong deterrent for the criminal who would otherwise kill for some money. 

Mr. Arnold goes on:
 
"Second, it contradicts itself and generates more sin and violations of Gods law. If a jury, a judge, and a prosecutor convict and send a person to death
for a murder they did not commit, are they not sending a person to death
that is innocent? If so, then are they not committing a murder if they
intentionally kill a person that is innocent? Under God's law, thou shall
not kill, they have broken this. In doing such they are now themselves
murderers. One could argue that the jury did not know for sure that the
person did or did not really commit the crime. Which brings me to my point,
only God can actually know this, so therefore, it is he, and he alone, that
should take vengeance..."
 
Mr. Arnold, you are in effect presuming to tell God what to do. And yet your email is full of this "leave it to God to sort out" stuff. God says in His Word very clearly that the man who spills innocent blood shall have his own blood spilled. And if by rare chance (and it is very very rare) a man is killed who was truly innocent of the crime, then those who sentenced him, if they did it knowingly, will be punished. But if unknowingly, there is probably no guilt for the judge and jury, because they are to listen to the witnesses and make a decision. If their decision was mislead because the witness was a lie, so be it. They did their God-given duty. God has given the state the power of the sword to punish wrongdoers. And God was not speaking merely of the flat of the sword for beating. Rather He requires the state to use the sharp edge against the wicked throat.
 
It is not a matter of killing, it is a matter of who is killed. A wicked man, who has murdered, has forfeited his God-given right to live, and his life is to be taken from him. The primary reason for that is justice, not deterrent. Even if all the murderers in the world were encouraged when one of their number was killed for murder, that would still not be a reason to refuse to obey God and put that murderer to death. Any man who takes innocent life shall lose his own. Actions have consequences because God says so, not because it makes us feel just and wise (or in mr. arnold's case, sick).
 
cheers,
 
Joshua Nieuwsma

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-730431058-1058996595=:91799-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jul 23 23:12:12 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:12:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Water? Message-ID: I was unaware that Moscow had water. The last three apartments I have lived in didn't have water. Every time I turn on my faucets instead of getting water I get this semi-transparent gooey substance that is filled with minerals and who knows what else. Oh, I am sure there is water in it. Just the percentage of the content being water seems to be at debate. Fun and wacky experiments with Moscow tap water: Experiment #1 Take a clean white bowl, fill it with water, then look in the bowl, can you see the bottom? It is magic! Sometimes, it is black other times it is just really white and unclear, but you can't see the bottom of the bowl! Experiment #2 First take a dark colored bowl, fill it with Moscow tap water. Place a net screen over the top. Then place it in a safe clean spot outside and let the tap water dehydrate. Look at the bottom of the bowl. Can you see the bottom of the bowl? No you can't! Is is magic? No, it is an unknown white powdery element. Just think, every time you drink the water, you are also consuming this element. Experiment #3 Take a clean glass jar and fill it with out what ever comes of your tap. Next, seal the jar so it is airtight. Then, place it on your counter top and put a towel over the top. After three days lift the towel. LIFE? We don't know, but that green stuff sure seems to be moving around on its' own power. Well, that is all the experiments we have for this issue of "What is in our water?". Remember, the Palouse water is always safe, just as long as you don't let it touch your skin. Donovan J Arnold >From: "French" >To: "Lewiston Morning Tribune" , > >Subject: [Vision2020] Water >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:24:28 -0700 > >To the editor: > >Elsa Kirsten Peters' July 17 letter purports to provide "facts, not >rhetoric" about our groundwater. Unfortunately, her "facts" are more >rhetorical than factual. > >Ms. Peters claims that water levels in the upper (Wanapum) aquifer "have >done nothing but rise in my lifetime". But a chart in the 2000 Annual >Report of the Palouse Basin Aquifer Committee (PBAC) shows Wanapum levels >between 1976 and 2000 rose twelve years, remained level four years, and >declined eight years. Most of the declining years happened after 1990, when >Moscow increased pumping from the shallow aquifer because of improved >filtration capabilities. Shifting even more pumping back to the Wanapum now >would only accelerate those declines. > >Ms. Peters also claims that "Most water used in the summer goes to watering >golf courses". The "real" fact is that local golf courses consume >relatively little deep Grande Ronde water. The UI golf course is watered >entirely with effluent from Moscow's wastewater treatment plant. The Elks >course draws from the shallow aquifer that Ms. Peters (erroneously) claims >isn't dropping at all. Irrigation at the WSU golf course isn't metered, so >it can only be estimated. But even if 10% of WSU pumpage goes to the golf >course, that would constitute little more than 2% of basinwide pumping from >the deep aquifer. > >By contrast, data from the city of Pullman show 75-80% of their annual >water use is residential, the remainder going to commercial and public >uses. If the information were available, Moscow's usage would most likely >mirror Pullman's. Ms. Peters' is correct that "Most water used in both >Moscow and Pullman during the summer is not consumed by 'new housing >developments,'" but residential consumers ARE by far the largest user group >in the basin and should be expected to contribute the greatest amount to >conservation efforts. > >Bill French, Director > > Palouse Water Conservation Network > >202 E 7th St, Moscow, ID 83843 > >883-3937 * prairiedoc@moscow.com > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jdanahy@turbonet.com Thu Jul 24 00:31:06 2003 From: jdanahy@turbonet.com (John Danahy) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:31:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Water In-Reply-To: <001b01c35158$6adf5920$6401a8c0@Dianne> Message-ID: <000801c35172$8099a3a0$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C35137.D43ACBA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A couple of questions What percentage of Pullman's water use is by city use? Or is that amount included in residential? Is the city of Moscow's water use metered? If not, why not? I remember something said a while ago about the city watering the greenways by hand using a truck and a couple of employees during the day. The effluent from the city's waste water treatment plant is a valuable resource. How is the city compensated by the UI for it's use? What percentage of effluent travels downstream? Can this be captured and reused? John jdanahy@turbonet.com -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of French Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 1:24 PM To: Lewiston Morning Tribune; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Water To the editor: Elsa Kirsten Peters' July 17 letter purports to provide "facts, not rhetoric" about our groundwater. Unfortunately, her "facts" are more rhetorical than factual. Ms. Peters claims that water levels in the upper (Wanapum) aquifer "have done nothing but rise in my lifetime". But a chart in the 2000 Annual Report of the Palouse Basin Aquifer Committee (PBAC) shows Wanapum levels between 1976 and 2000 rose twelve years, remained level four years, and declined eight years. Most of the declining years happened after 1990, when Moscow increased pumping from the shallow aquifer because of improved filtration capabilities. Shifting even more pumping back to the Wanapum now would only accelerate those declines. Ms. Peters also claims that "Most water used in the summer goes to watering golf courses". The "real" fact is that local golf courses consume relatively little deep Grande Ronde water. The UI golf course is watered entirely with effluent from Moscow's wastewater treatment plant. The Elks course draws from the shallow aquifer that Ms. Peters (erroneously) claims isn't dropping at all. Irrigation at the WSU golf course isn't metered, so it can only be estimated. But even if 10% of WSU pumpage goes to the golf course, that would constitute little more than 2% of basinwide pumping from the deep aquifer. By contrast, data from the city of Pullman show 75-80% of their annual water use is residential, the remainder going to commercial and public uses. If the information were available, Moscow's usage would most likely mirror Pullman's. Ms. Peters' is correct that "Most water used in both Moscow and Pullman during the summer is not consumed by 'new housing developments,'" but residential consumers ARE by far the largest user group in the basin and should be expected to contribute the greatest amount to conservation efforts. Bill French, Director Palouse Water Conservation Network 202 E 7th St, Moscow, ID 83843 883-3937 * prairiedoc@moscow.com ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C35137.D43ACBA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A couple of questions =

 

What percentage of = Pullman’s water use is by city use?  Or is that amount included in = residential?

 

Is the city of Moscow’s water use metered? If not, why not?

I remember something said a while = ago about the city watering the greenways by hand using a truck and a couple = of employees during the day.

 

The effluent from the city’s = waste water treatment plant is a valuable resource.  How is the city = compensated by the UI for it’s use?

 

What percentage of effluent travels downstream?  Can this be captured and reused?

 

John

jdanahy@turbonet.com

 

 

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of French
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2003 1:24 PM
To: Lewiston Morning = Tribune; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] = Water

 

To the = editor:

Elsa Kirsten = Peters’ July 17 letter purports to provide "facts, not rhetoric" about = our groundwater. Unfortunately, her "facts" are more rhetorical = than factual.

Ms. Peters claims = that water levels in the upper (Wanapum) aquifer "have done nothing but = rise in my lifetime". But a chart in the 2000 Annual Report of the Palouse = Basin Aquifer Committee (PBAC) shows Wanapum levels between 1976 and 2000 rose = twelve years, remained level four years, and declined eight years. Most of the = declining years happened after 1990, when Moscow increased pumping from the = shallow aquifer because of improved filtration capabilities. Shifting even more = pumping back to the Wanapum now would only accelerate those = declines.

Ms. Peters also = claims that "Most water used in the summer goes to watering golf = courses". The "real" fact is that local golf courses consume relatively = little deep Grande Ronde water. The UI golf course is watered entirely with = effluent from Moscow’s wastewater treatment plant. The Elks course draws = from the shallow aquifer that Ms. Peters (erroneously) claims isn’t = dropping at all. Irrigation at the WSU golf course isn’t metered, so it can = only be estimated. But even if 10% of WSU pumpage goes to the golf course, that = would constitute little more than 2% of basinwide pumping from the deep = aquifer.

By contrast, data = from the city of Pullman show 75-80% of their annual water use is residential, = the remainder going to commercial and public uses. If the information were available, Moscow’s usage would most likely mirror = Pullman’s. Ms. Peters’ is correct that "Most water used in both Moscow and = Pullman during the summer is not consumed by ‘new housing developments,’" but residential consumers ARE by far the = largest user group in the basin and should be expected to contribute the greatest = amount to conservation efforts.

Bill French, Director           = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;          Palouse Water Conservation = Network

202 E 7th St, = Moscow, ID  83843

883-3937 * = prairiedoc@moscow.com

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C35137.D43ACBA0-- From timlohr@yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 01:31:20 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDABLE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030724003120.29449.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Donovan, But you're missing the point of this post. It wasn't to rehash whether Clinton was a good guy or not. It was WHY IS HE APOLOGIZING FOR BUSH? Why is he directly contradicting what you and many other critics are saying about W? All the rest of the national Democrats look on this latest Uranium thing as their chance to pounce. Any ideas? TL --- Donovan Arnold wrote: > While I did not like Clinton as a person, or shall I > say his lack of being > one, I would gladly have Clinton again over this war > mongering, > environmentially damaging, lying, murdering, economy > destroying president > that we have now. I don't care about campaign > finance reform or adultry, or > anything else of that matter. I care about the > welfare of people, the > environment, and the economy. That is about it. We > are worse off then we > were 4 years ago, regardless of what we personally > think about the > personalities of Clinton of Bush. > > Donovan J Arnold > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > >To: Carl Westberg > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE > UNDERSTANDABLE > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:38:29 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Carl, > > I'm sorry if I implied all Democrats were > >Clintonistas. The "/" I put between the terms > "Loyal > >Democrats" and "Clintonista" were meant to show > that > >these were two different clans. I should have used > the > >term "and" instead of the "/" to make myself > clearer. > >(Does this remind you of Clinton's statement that > "it > >depends on what the meaning of "is" is?) > > But you can't deny that many Loyal Demos were > the > >first to support and defend ole Billy boy and > algore > >during their many ethically challenged fundraising > and > >legal adventures. > > Is it time now for Democrats to heave him > overboard > >and "distance" themselves from him or maybe even > >(gasp) "move on" from the Clinton era? > > TL > > > > > >--- Carl Westberg > wrote: > > > Bill Clinton made the comment during an 80th > > > birthday celebration for his > > > old rival Bob Dole. It may well have been made > in > > > the spirit of "reaching > > > out". Are all Democrats or independents who > voted > > > for Bill Clinton > > > "Clintonistas"? I voted for him twice, and also > > > disagreed with some of his > > > actions while in the White House. I disagree > with > > > his defense of Bush now. > > > But, as the quote goes, "I don't belong to any > > > organized party, I'm a > > > Democrat." To suggest that we all somehow march > in > > > lockstep with one > > > another is like saying that all conservatives > adhere > > > to the rantings of Ann > > > Coulter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > > > > > > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > > > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > > > >Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE > > > UNDERSTANDABLE > > > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:41:11 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > > > >Visionaries, > > > > How do all you loyal Democrat/Clintonistas > > > explain > > > >ole Bill's taking up for Dub? > > > > Think he's trying to embarrass some of the > > > Democrat > > > >Pres. candidates he doesn't like? Why would he > do > > > >that? Is he trying to make sure that W is > > > re-elected > > > >so his wife won't have a sittind Democrat > obstacle > > > >when she runs in '08? > > > > How do you analyze? > > > > TL > > > > > > > >CLINTON SAYS BUSH'S URANIUM MISTAKE IS > > > UNDERSTANDABLE > > > >Copyright İ 2003 Nando Media > > > >Copyright İ 2003 AP Online > > > > > > > >The Associated Press > > > >WASHINGTON (July 22, 7:07 p.m. ADT) - President > > > Bush's > > > >erroneous reference to an Iraqi-Africa uranium > link > > > >was understandable, former President Clinton > said > > > >Tuesday, in part because Saddam Hussein's > regime > > > had > > > >not accounted for some weapons by the time > Clinton > > > >ended his term in 2001. > > > >Clinton's comments reinforce one of the pillars > of > > > >Bush's defense of the war in Iraq - that his > > > >Democratic predecessor was never satisfied that > > > Saddam > > > >had rid himself of weapons of mass destruction. > > > > > > > >"When I left office, there was a substantial > amount > > > of > > > >biological and chemical material unaccounted > for," > > > >Clinton said on CNN's "Larry King Live." > > > > > > > >Clinton said he never found out whether a > > > U.S.-British > > > >bombing campaign he ordered in 1998 ended > Saddam's > > > >capability of producing chemical and biological > > > >weapons. "We might have gotten it all, we might > > > have > > > >gotten half of it, we might have gotten none of > > > it," > > > >he said. > > > > > > > >In his State of the Union speech in February > > > >justifying the planned war in Iraq, Bush > referred > > > to > > > >British intelligence reports that Saddam had > tried > > > to > > > >purchase uranium for nuclear weapons > production. > > > His > > > >administration says it now believes those > reports > > > were > > > >based in part on forged documents. > > > > > > > >Clinton confined his remarks to biological and > > > >chemical weapons, and did not say whether he > would > > > >consider credible any report that Saddam had > wanted > > > to > > > >build a nuclear weapons program. > > > > > > > >Nonetheless, he suggested that Bush's mistake > was > > > par > > > >for the course - and that it was time to move > on > > > now > > > >that Bush had acknowledged the error. > > > > > > > >"You know, everybody makes mistakes when they > are > > > >president," he said. "I mean, you can't make as > > > many > > > >calls as you have to without messing up once in > a > > > >while. The thing we ought to be focused on is > what > > > is > > > >the right thing to do now." > > > > > > > >Clinton said ending tensions in Iraq should be > the > > > >priority now - another echo of the current > White > > > >House's talking points. "We should be pulling > for > > > >America on this. We should be pulling for the > > > people > > > >of Iraq." > > > > > > > >Clinton made his remarks as a call-in guest on > a > > > >program observing the 80th birthday of Bob > Dole, > > > his > > > >rival for the White House in 1996. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > > > >Do you Yahoo!? > > > >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > > > >http://search.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > > List services made available by First Step > > > Internet, > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > > 1994. > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 > months > > > FREE* > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step > > > Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > design software > >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From timlohr@yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 01:33:25 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow Civic Association In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723115738.01cd9788@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: <20030724003325.25888.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Bob, I agree. Get a sense of humor, Tom. I think the MCA is doing some good work too, but there's nothing wrong with a joke now and then. TL --- Bob Hoffmann wrote: > I dunno. Dale's submission made me laugh quite > heartily, although as an > MCA supporter, I wouldn't actually vote for his > design. > Bob > > At 11:03 AM 7/23/2003 -0700, you wrote: > >Greetings Visionaires - > > > >It seems that Mr. London's Moscow Civic Association > logo contest affords > >us two options: > > > >1) We can take the time to design a logo > (indiviually or otherwise) > >depicting our geat community and its diverse > cutlures, people, etc. or > > > >2) We can throw together a piece of garbage > (thinking it is funny) to > >ridicule the local community, ultimately reflecting > the designer's lack of > >maturity. > > > >Tom Hansen > >Moscow, Idaho > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Dale Courtney [mailto:dale@courtneys.us] > >Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:53 AM > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Moscow Civic Association > > > >Bill asks: > > > > > LOGO CONTEST FOR $100 PRIZE: > > > The Moscow Civic Association is soliciting > entries in a > > > contest for a logo for the organization. > Guidelines: an 8½ x > > > 11 black and white copy (can be in color, if it > will also > > > print well in black and white). Mail to Moscow > Civic > > > Association, PO Box 8788, Moscow, ID 83843. > Deadline Aug. 1, 2003. > >fbc9e2.jpg > > > >Well, this was the first thing that came to mind. > > > >Best, > >Dale > > > > Bob Hoffmann > 820 S. Logan St. > Moscow, ID 83843 > > Tel: 208 883-0642 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 01:43:51 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:43:51 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow Civic Association In-Reply-To: <20030724003325.25888.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My apologies. Tom Hansen > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 5:33 PM > To: Bob Hoffmann > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Moscow Civic Association > > > Bob, > I agree. > Get a sense of humor, Tom. > I think the MCA is doing some good work too, but > there's nothing wrong with a joke now and then. > TL > > > --- Bob Hoffmann wrote: > > I dunno. Dale's submission made me laugh quite > > heartily, although as an > > MCA supporter, I wouldn't actually vote for his > > design. > > Bob > > > > At 11:03 AM 7/23/2003 -0700, you wrote: > > >Greetings Visionaires - > > > > > >It seems that Mr. London's Moscow Civic Association > > logo contest affords > > >us two options: > > > > > >1) We can take the time to design a logo > > (indiviually or otherwise) > > >depicting our geat community and its diverse > > cutlures, people, etc. or > > > > > >2) We can throw together a piece of garbage > > (thinking it is funny) to > > >ridicule the local community, ultimately reflecting > > the designer's lack of > > >maturity. > > > > > >Tom Hansen > > >Moscow, Idaho > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Dale Courtney [mailto:dale@courtneys.us] > > >Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:53 AM > > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Moscow Civic Association > > > > > >Bill asks: > > > > > > > LOGO CONTEST FOR $100 PRIZE: > > > > The Moscow Civic Association is soliciting > > entries in a > > > > contest for a logo for the organization. > > Guidelines: an 8= x > > > > 11 black and white copy (can be in color, if it > > will also > > > > print well in black and white). Mail to Moscow > > Civic > > > > Association, PO Box 8788, Moscow, ID 83843. > > Deadline Aug. 1, 2003. > > >fbc9e2.jpg > > > > > >Well, this was the first thing that came to mind. > > > > > >Best, > > >Dale > > > > > > > Bob Hoffmann > > 820 S. Logan St. > > Moscow, ID 83843 > > > > Tel: 208 883-0642 > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jul 24 01:43:11 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:43:11 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow Civic Association In-Reply-To: <20030724003325.25888.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200307240045.h6O0jwQU097622@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C35141.E2BE1CE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001A_01C35141.E2BE1CE0" ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C35141.E2BE1CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim wrote: > Get a sense of humor, Tom. Sometimes jokes striking close to home are not found funny. MCA Logo #2 Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C35141.E2BE1CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tim wrote:
>    Get a sense of = humor,=20 Tom.

Sometimes jokes striking close to home are not found funny.=20

3D"MCA

Best,
Dale Courtney
Moscow, = Idaho

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donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:06:03 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Government killing, etc. Message-ID: Joshua, Once again, the logic of the right wing is broken for a multitude of reasons: Quiet ironic how you don't trust the government with your mail or schools but you trust them with your life? You write: "ignoring of course those that have corrupt officials since that eliminates the possibility of true justice" Are you telling me the US Government is not Corrupt? Or are you telling me that it is OK to run people through a corrupt government that has the potential consequence of death? I can't see a "yes" to either one without you undermining your entire argument with this statement. You fail to address my major points of society being responsible for not producing murderers. This is not Christian to ignore the duties of preventing children from growing up to be violent and in poverty. It is cheaper to kill them when they get out of line than to fix them. This way we get to live in lives away from the crime. Second, you misstate the facts. "God is merciful, but requires justice to be done. The death penalty is part of our protection. Every society (ignoring of course those that have corrupt officials since that eliminates the possibility of true justice) that has a consistently applied death penalty always has lower crime and safer streets." This is totally false. The nations that have abolished the Death Penalty have lower rates of Murder than those that do have the Death Penalty. Canada, Britain, Australia, France, Germany, and Italy don't have the Death Penalty. Yet they have much lower rates of murder. Likewise, California, Texas, and Virginia, have the highest number of murders per capita and have the Death Penalty. While states like Hew Hampshire and Vermont have no death penalty and lower per capita rates of murder. Your Death Penalty does no good amongst people that want to die and could care less if you end their miserable life. "Murder-suicide" and "Death by Cop" are common. I think that life in prison would be more of a deterrent than Death. You also confuse God with the State: "But if unknowingly, there is probably no guilt for the judge and jury, because they are to listen to the witnesses and make a decision. If their decision was mislead because the witness was a lie, so be it. They did their God-given duty." Just where does it say that serving on a jury and finding someone "guilty" is a "God-given duty"? I have never seen this written in the Bible or any other religious document whose author claims the credentials of God almighty. I suppose you think God gave us the "Right to bare arms" as well? Don't you also find it extremely odd that God would give us the right to judge who will live and who will die without giving us the most important ingredient of infallible judgment? I would tend to think that God would not be so careless in the treatment of his people if he really loved them. So why is God holding back on the information that would tell the jury if the accused is innocent of guilty? Does he think it is funny to fry an innocent man? Or does He not really care? Or perhaps He said "Thou shall not Judge" and actually really meant what he said. You also write: "And if by rare chance (and it is very very rare) a man is killed who was truly innocent of the crime, then those who sentenced him, if they did it knowingly, will be punished." You mean to say it is OK to pick off one or two innocent people to make sure we get the real bad guys? Should our motto of Justice be "Kill and you absolutely will be killed, don't kill and you will might be killed anyway"? I really think you are living in a fantasy world to think that it is OK to kill people in our messed up legal system and focuses on money rather than actual guilt or innocence. God didn't give humans the right to judge, only the right to love and forgive. Let us focus on this instead of covering the symptoms of hate with more hate and death. Donovan J Arnold >From: Joshua Nieuwsma >To: vision >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Government killing, etc. >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:43:15 -0700 (PDT) > >Mr. Arnold wrote: > >"First, I don't buy the concept that government sanctioned killing is a law >of God. From my understating God was very forgiving, and said let vengeance >be his, not ours. We have every right to protect ourselves from people that >may do us harm. But the death penalty is not protecting us, it is only used >as an act of vengeance." > >God is merciful, but requires justice to be done. The death penalty is part >of our protection. Every society (ignoring of course those that have >corrupt officials since that eliminates the possibility of true justice) >that has a consistently applied death penalty always has lower crime and >safer streets. No matter how much you liberals want to deny it, fear of a >quick, speedy trial for murder, with the unbreakable promise of death at >the other end, is a strong deterrent for the criminal who would otherwise >kill for some money. > >Mr. Arnold goes on: > >"Second, it contradicts itself and generates more sin and violations of >Gods law. If a jury, a judge, and a prosecutor convict and send a person to >death >for a murder they did not commit, are they not sending a person to death >that is innocent? If so, then are they not committing a murder if they >intentionally kill a person that is innocent? Under God's law, thou shall >not kill, they have broken this. In doing such they are now themselves >murderers. One could argue that the jury did not know for sure that the >person did or did not really commit the crime. Which brings me to my point, >only God can actually know this, so therefore, it is he, and he alone, that >should take vengeance..." > >Mr. Arnold, you are in effect presuming to tell God what to do. And yet >your email is full of this "leave it to God to sort out" stuff. God says in >His Word very clearly that the man who spills innocent blood shall have his >own blood spilled. And if by rare chance (and it is very very rare) a man >is killed who was truly innocent of the crime, then those who sentenced >him, if they did it knowingly, will be punished. But if unknowingly, there >is probably no guilt for the judge and jury, because they are to listen to >the witnesses and make a decision. If their decision was mislead because >the witness was a lie, so be it. They did their God-given duty. God has >given the state the power of the sword to punish wrongdoers. And God was >not speaking merely of the flat of the sword for beating. Rather He >requires the state to use the sharp edge against the wicked throat. > >It is not a matter of killing, it is a matter of who is killed. A wicked >man, who has murdered, has forfeited his God-given right to live, and his >life is to be taken from him. The primary reason for that is justice, not >deterrent. Even if all the murderers in the world were encouraged when one >of their number was killed for murder, that would still not be a reason to >refuse to obey God and put that murderer to death. Any man who takes >innocent life shall lose his own. Actions have consequences because God >says so, not because it makes us feel just and wise (or in mr. arnold's >case, sick). > >cheers, > >Joshua Nieuwsma > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From timlohr@yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 02:08:47 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq Message-ID: <20030724010847.38225.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, The Democrats' Iraq stances are looking increasingly schizophrenic, no? TL > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY > By John McCaslin > ---------------------------------------------------- > KERRY'S WAR > > Suffice it to say that Democratic presidential > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" the theme of > his campaign. > > On virtually every stump he's stood on this > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has complained that > President Bush sidestepped the congressionally > approved path to war by bypassing the United > Nations, by not building an international coalition, > and simply by not doing what it was that he had > promised to do (actually, one could argue that the > senator is wrong on all three counts). > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in favor of the > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now says, with > the understanding that Mr. Bush would exhaust every > remedy first. What was the big hurry, in other > words. > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, when nobody > else in Washington except the Inside the Beltway > column led with an item headlined, "Finish the > mission." > > "Debate on whether to take out Saddam Hussein, > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as one > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we had > written. > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is calling > for a 'strong' military attack in response to the > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of amassing a > stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.' " > > Weapons of mass destruction? That's what Mr. > Kerry called them. > > "As the senator points out, military might is > the only language Saddam knows — and fears. 'Saddam > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a currency that > he understands and values, for his unacceptable > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should not be a > strike consisting only of a handful of cruise > missiles hitting isolated targets primarily of > presumed symbolic value. But how long this military > action might continue and how it may escalate ... > and how extensive it would reach are for the [White > House National] Security Council and our allies to > know and for Saddam Hussein to find out!' " > > Just as you wished, Senator. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 02:29:32 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:29:32 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq In-Reply-To: <20030724010847.38225.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Of course, one must realize that John McCaslin stands slightly to the right of Rush Limbaugh as relfected in the articles authored by him at: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/johnmccaslin/archive.shtml Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:09 PM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq > > > Visionaries, > The Democrats' Iraq stances are looking > increasingly schizophrenic, no? > TL > > > > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY > > By John McCaslin > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > KERRY'S WAR > > > > Suffice it to say that Democratic presidential > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" the theme of > > his campaign. > > > > On virtually every stump he's stood on this > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has complained that > > President Bush sidestepped the congressionally > > approved path to war by bypassing the United > > Nations, by not building an international coalition, > > and simply by not doing what it was that he had > > promised to do (actually, one could argue that the > > senator is wrong on all three counts). > > > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in favor of the > > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now says, with > > the understanding that Mr. Bush would exhaust every > > remedy first. What was the big hurry, in other > > words. > > > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, when nobody > > else in Washington except the Inside the Beltway > > column led with an item headlined, "Finish the > > mission." > > > > "Debate on whether to take out Saddam Hussein, > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as one > > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we had > > written. > > > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is calling > > for a 'strong' military attack in response to the > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of amassing a > > stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.'B " > > > > Weapons of mass destruction? That's what Mr. > > Kerry called them. > > > > "As the senator points out, military might is > > the only language Saddam knows B and fears. 'Saddam > > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a currency that > > he understands and values, for his unacceptable > > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should not be a > > strike consisting only of a handful of cruise > > missiles hitting isolated targets primarily of > > presumed symbolic value. But how long this military > > action might continue and how it may escalate ... > > and how extensive it would reach are for the [White > > House National] Security Council and our allies to > > know and for Saddam Hussein to find out!'B " > > > > Just as you wished, Senator. > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 02:38:27 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:38:27 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq Message-ID: Actually, I was thinking the same thing about the Republican Party. They want to censure video games for fake blood but are advocating that we post full color graphic pictures of the dead torn up bodies of Saddam's sons everywhere in Iraqi cities where 50% of the population is under the age of 16? I really don't get it. Although, I do admit that Dean will look stupid, if and when WMD's are found. Donovan J Arnold >From: Tim Lohrmann >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:08:47 -0700 (PDT) > >Visionaries, > The Democrats' Iraq stances are looking >increasingly schizophrenic, no? > TL > > > > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY > > By John McCaslin > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > KERRY'S WAR > > > > Suffice it to say that Democratic presidential > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" the theme of > > his campaign. > > > > On virtually every stump he's stood on this > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has complained that > > President Bush sidestepped the congressionally > > approved path to war by bypassing the United > > Nations, by not building an international coalition, > > and simply by not doing what it was that he had > > promised to do (actually, one could argue that the > > senator is wrong on all three counts). > > > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in favor of the > > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now says, with > > the understanding that Mr. Bush would exhaust every > > remedy first. What was the big hurry, in other > > words. > > > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, when nobody > > else in Washington except the Inside the Beltway > > column led with an item headlined, "Finish the > > mission." > > > > "Debate on whether to take out Saddam Hussein, > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as one > > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we had > > written. > > > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is calling > > for a 'strong' military attack in response to the > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of amassing a > > stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.' " > > > > Weapons of mass destruction? That's what Mr. > > Kerry called them. > > > > "As the senator points out, military might is > > the only language Saddam knows — and fears. 'Saddam > > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a currency that > > he understands and values, for his unacceptable > > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should not be a > > strike consisting only of a handful of cruise > > missiles hitting isolated targets primarily of > > presumed symbolic value. But how long this military > > action might continue and how it may escalate ... > > and how extensive it would reach are for the [White > > House National] Security Council and our allies to > > know and for Saddam Hussein to find out!' " > > > > Just as you wished, Senator. > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From dfrench@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 02:44:54 2003 From: dfrench@moscow.com (French) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:44:54 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Water References: <000801c35172$8099a3a0$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> Message-ID: <003201c35185$2e77a8c0$6401a8c0@Dianne> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C3514A.81DD4E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John: I have been told that all water used in both Pullman and Moscow is = metered. In past years, Moscow only read meters for public buildings = and parks once per year. They have begun reading them monthly very = recently. None of my data shows how much water is being used by either = City. I'm sure if you called Art Garro at the Pullman Water Dept, he = would have those figures. I don't know if Moscow would have similar = figures (although they should) because the categories for customer = accounts in Moscow are listed as either residential or commercial. = Perhaps the Water Dept has a breakdown. Larry Kirkland at PBAC would have all of the latest breakdowns on amount = of effluent used and if the City is compensated by UI. As far as = treated effluent going on downstream, things get much more complicated = because of EPA rules for temperature, etc, based on the classification = of Paradise Creek and the fact that it flows into Washington. I could = get into details, but I think Larry could give you more information = based on the discussions at the PBAC meetings. Dianne=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Danahy=20 To: 'French' ; vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:31 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Water A couple of questions=20 What percentage of Pullman's water use is by city use? Or is that = amount included in residential? Is the city of Moscow's water use metered? If not, why not? I remember something said a while ago about the city watering the = greenways by hand using a truck and a couple of employees during the = day. The effluent from the city's waste water treatment plant is a valuable = resource. How is the city compensated by the UI for it's use? What percentage of effluent travels downstream? Can this be captured = and reused? John jdanahy@turbonet.com -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of French Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 1:24 PM To: Lewiston Morning Tribune; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Water To the editor: Elsa Kirsten Peters' July 17 letter purports to provide "facts, not = rhetoric" about our groundwater. Unfortunately, her "facts" are more = rhetorical than factual. Ms. Peters claims that water levels in the upper (Wanapum) aquifer = "have done nothing but rise in my lifetime". But a chart in the 2000 = Annual Report of the Palouse Basin Aquifer Committee (PBAC) shows = Wanapum levels between 1976 and 2000 rose twelve years, remained level = four years, and declined eight years. Most of the declining years = happened after 1990, when Moscow increased pumping from the shallow = aquifer because of improved filtration capabilities. Shifting even more = pumping back to the Wanapum now would only accelerate those declines. Ms. Peters also claims that "Most water used in the summer goes to = watering golf courses". The "real" fact is that local golf courses = consume relatively little deep Grande Ronde water. The UI golf course is = watered entirely with effluent from Moscow's wastewater treatment plant. = The Elks course draws from the shallow aquifer that Ms. Peters = (erroneously) claims isn't dropping at all. Irrigation at the WSU golf = course isn't metered, so it can only be estimated. But even if 10% of = WSU pumpage goes to the golf course, that would constitute little more = than 2% of basinwide pumping from the deep aquifer.=20 By contrast, data from the city of Pullman show 75-80% of their annual = water use is residential, the remainder going to commercial and public = uses. If the information were available, Moscow's usage would most = likely mirror Pullman's. Ms. Peters' is correct that "Most water used in = both Moscow and Pullman during the summer is not consumed by 'new = housing developments,'" but residential consumers ARE by far the largest = user group in the basin and should be expected to contribute the = greatest amount to conservation efforts. Bill French, Director = = Palouse Water Conservation Network 202 E 7th St, Moscow, ID 83843 883-3937 * prairiedoc@moscow.com ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C3514A.81DD4E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John:
 
I have been told that all water used in = both=20 Pullman and Moscow is metered.  In past years, Moscow only read = meters for=20 public buildings and parks once per year.  They have begun reading = them=20 monthly very recently.  None of my data shows how much water is = being used=20 by either City.  I'm sure if you called Art Garro at the Pullman = Water=20 Dept, he would have those figures.  I don't know if Moscow would = have=20 similar figures (although they should) because the categories for = customer=20 accounts in Moscow are listed as either residential or commercial.  = Perhaps=20 the Water Dept has a breakdown.
 
Larry Kirkland at PBAC would have all = of the latest=20 breakdowns on amount of effluent used and if the City is compensated by=20 UI.  As far as treated effluent going on downstream, things get = much more=20 complicated because of EPA rules for temperature, etc, based on the=20 classification of Paradise Creek and the fact that it flows into=20 Washington.  I could get into details, but I think Larry could give = you more information based on the discussions at the PBAC=20 meetings.
 
Dianne 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Danahy
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 = 4:31=20 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] = Water

A couple of = questions=20

 

What = percentage of=20 Pullman=92s = water use is by=20 city use?  Or is that amount included in = residential?

 

Is the city = of=20 Moscow=92s = water use metered?=20 If not, why not?

I remember = something=20 said a while ago about the city watering the greenways by hand using a = truck=20 and a couple of employees during the day.

 

The = effluent from the=20 city=92s waste water treatment plant is a valuable resource.  How = is the=20 city compensated by the UI for it=92s use?

 

What = percentage of=20 effluent travels downstream?  Can this be captured and=20 reused?

 

John

jdanahy@turbonet.com

 

 

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of French
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 = 1:24=20 PM
To: Lewiston = Morning=20 Tribune; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020]=20 Water

 

To the=20 editor:

Elsa Kirsten = Peters=92=20 July 17 letter purports to provide "facts, not rhetoric" about our=20 groundwater. Unfortunately, her "facts" are more rhetorical than=20 factual.

Ms. Peters = claims that=20 water levels in the upper (Wanapum) aquifer "have done nothing but = rise in my=20 lifetime". But a chart in the 2000 Annual Report of the Palouse Basin = Aquifer=20 Committee (PBAC) shows Wanapum levels between 1976 and 2000 rose = twelve years,=20 remained level four years, and declined eight years. Most of the = declining=20 years happened after 1990, when Moscow increased pumping from the = shallow=20 aquifer because of improved filtration capabilities. Shifting even = more=20 pumping back to the Wanapum now would only accelerate those=20 declines.

Ms. Peters = also claims=20 that "Most water used in the summer goes to watering golf courses". = The "real"=20 fact is that local golf courses consume relatively little deep Grande = Ronde=20 water. The UI golf course is watered entirely with effluent from = Moscow=92s=20 wastewater treatment plant. The Elks course draws from the shallow = aquifer=20 that Ms. Peters (erroneously) claims isn=92t dropping at all. = Irrigation at the=20 WSU golf course isn=92t metered, so it can only be estimated. But even = if 10% of=20 WSU pumpage goes to the golf course, that would constitute little more = than 2%=20 of basinwide pumping from the deep aquifer.

By contrast, = data from=20 the city of Pullman show 75-80% of their annual water use is = residential, the=20 remainder going to commercial and public uses. If the information were = available, Moscow=92s usage would most likely mirror Pullman=92s. Ms. = Peters=92 is=20 correct that "Most water used in both Moscow and Pullman during the = summer is=20 not consumed by =91new housing developments,=92" but residential = consumers ARE by=20 far the largest user group in the basin and should be expected to = contribute=20 the greatest amount to conservation efforts.

Bill French,=20 = Director           = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;         =20 Palouse Water=20 Conservation Network

202 E 7th St, = Moscow,=20 ID  83843

883-3937 *=20 prairiedoc@moscow.com

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C3514A.81DD4E60-- From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 02:54:29 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:54:29 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq In-Reply-To: Message-ID: These weapons of mass destruction have been found. They are located in North Korea. We can either make the same demands on North Korea that Bush made on Saddam Hussein before we "liberated" Iraq. Or we can pursue another nation "considered" to be a hideout for Al Queda (excuse the spelling): Iran. With the next presidential election less than 16 months away, which foe is less likely to cause any problems for King George? My money is on Iran. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Donovan Arnold > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:38 PM > To: timlohr@yahoo.com; vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq > > > Actually, I was thinking the same thing about the Republican Party. They > want to censure video games for fake blood but are advocating > that we post > full color graphic pictures of the dead torn up bodies of Saddam's sons > everywhere in Iraqi cities where 50% of the population is under > the age of > 16? I really don't get it. > Although, I do admit that Dean will look stupid, if and when WMD's are > found. > > Donovan J Arnold > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:08:47 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Visionaries, > > The Democrats' Iraq stances are looking > >increasingly schizophrenic, no? > > TL > > > > > > > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY > > > By John McCaslin > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > KERRY'S WAR > > > > > > Suffice it to say that Democratic presidential > > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" the theme of > > > his campaign. > > > > > > On virtually every stump he's stood on this > > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has complained that > > > President Bush sidestepped the congressionally > > > approved path to war by bypassing the United > > > Nations, by not building an international coalition, > > > and simply by not doing what it was that he had > > > promised to do (actually, one could argue that the > > > senator is wrong on all three counts). > > > > > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in favor of the > > > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now says, with > > > the understanding that Mr. Bush would exhaust every > > > remedy first. What was the big hurry, in other > > > words. > > > > > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, when nobody > > > else in Washington except the Inside the Beltway > > > column led with an item headlined, "Finish the > > > mission." > > > > > > "Debate on whether to take out Saddam Hussein, > > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as one > > > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we had > > > written. > > > > > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is calling > > > for a 'strong' military attack in response to the > > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of amassing a > > > stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.' " > > > > > > Weapons of mass destruction? That's what Mr. > > > Kerry called them. > > > > > > "As the senator points out, military might is > > > the only language Saddam knows — and fears. 'Saddam > > > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a currency that > > > he understands and values, for his unacceptable > > > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should not be a > > > strike consisting only of a handful of cruise > > > missiles hitting isolated targets primarily of > > > presumed symbolic value. But how long this military > > > action might continue and how it may escalate ... > > > and how extensive it would reach are for the [White > > > House National] Security Council and our allies to > > > know and for Saddam Hussein to find out!' " > > > > > > Just as you wished, Senator. > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 03:07:17 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:07:17 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq Message-ID: I thought the WMD's were in the White House? Donovan J Arnold >From: "Tom Hansen" >Reply-To: >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:54:29 -0700 > >These weapons of mass destruction have been found. They are located in >North Korea. > >We can either make the same demands on North Korea that Bush made on Saddam >Hussein before we "liberated" Iraq. Or we can pursue another nation >"considered" to be a hideout for Al Queda (excuse the spelling): Iran. > >With the next presidential election less than 16 months away, which foe is >less likely to cause any problems for King George? My money is on Iran. > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > Behalf Of Donovan Arnold > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:38 PM > > To: timlohr@yahoo.com; vision2020@moscow.com > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq > > > > > > Actually, I was thinking the same thing about the Republican Party. They > > want to censure video games for fake blood but are advocating > > that we post > > full color graphic pictures of the dead torn up bodies of Saddam's sons > > everywhere in Iraqi cities where 50% of the population is under > > the age of > > 16? I really don't get it. > > Although, I do admit that Dean will look stupid, if and when WMD's are > > found. > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > > >Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq > > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:08:47 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >Visionaries, > > > The Democrats' Iraq stances are looking > > >increasingly schizophrenic, no? > > > TL > > > > > > > > > > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY > > > > By John McCaslin > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > KERRY'S WAR > > > > > > > > Suffice it to say that Democratic presidential > > > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" the theme of > > > > his campaign. > > > > > > > > On virtually every stump he's stood on this > > > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has complained that > > > > President Bush sidestepped the congressionally > > > > approved path to war by bypassing the United > > > > Nations, by not building an international coalition, > > > > and simply by not doing what it was that he had > > > > promised to do (actually, one could argue that the > > > > senator is wrong on all three counts). > > > > > > > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in favor of the > > > > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now says, with > > > > the understanding that Mr. Bush would exhaust every > > > > remedy first. What was the big hurry, in other > > > > words. > > > > > > > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, when nobody > > > > else in Washington except the Inside the Beltway > > > > column led with an item headlined, "Finish the > > > > mission." > > > > > > > > "Debate on whether to take out Saddam Hussein, > > > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as one > > > > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we had > > > > written. > > > > > > > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is calling > > > > for a 'strong' military attack in response to the > > > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of amassing a > > > > stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.' " > > > > > > > > Weapons of mass destruction? That's what Mr. > > > > Kerry called them. > > > > > > > > "As the senator points out, military might is > > > > the only language Saddam knows — and fears. 'Saddam > > > > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a currency that > > > > he understands and values, for his unacceptable > > > > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should not be a > > > > strike consisting only of a handful of cruise > > > > missiles hitting isolated targets primarily of > > > > presumed symbolic value. But how long this military > > > > action might continue and how it may escalate ... > > > > and how extensive it would reach are for the [White > > > > House National] Security Council and our allies to > > > > know and for Saddam Hussein to find out!' " > > > > > > > > Just as you wished, Senator. > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > > >Do you Yahoo!? > > >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > > >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 03:26:35 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:26:35 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Government killing, etc. Message-ID: Joshua wrote: >God is merciful, but requires justice to be done. The death penalty is part >of our protection. Every society (ignoring of course those that have >corrupt officials since that eliminates the possibility of true justice) >that has a consistently applied death penalty always has lower crime and >safer streets. YOU ARE FLAT OUT WRONG. CHECK THE FACTS. GERMANY, FRANCE, SWEDEN, ITALY, AND NUMEROUS OTHER NATIONS WITHOUT THE DEATH PENALTY HAVE MUCH LOWER RATES OF VIOLENT CRIME THAN THE USA. AND WITHIN THE USA, THE STATES WITH THE DEATH PENALTY DO NOT HAVE LOWER RATES OF VIOLENT CRIME OVERALL THAN THOSE STATES THAT DO NOT HAVE THE DEATH PENALTY. CHECK THE LINK BELOW FOR THIS DATA, ESPECIALLY FOR TEXAS, WHICH HAS THE HIGHEST EXECUTION RATE IN THE USA: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167 >Mr. Arnold, you are in effect presuming to tell God what to do. And yet >your email is full of this "leave it to God to sort out" stuff. God says in >His Word very clearly that the man who spills innocent blood shall have his >own blood spilled. And if by rare chance (and it is very very rare) a man >is killed who was truly innocent of the crime, AGAIN, FLAT OUT WRONG. CHECK THE DATA AT THE INNOCENCE PROJECT ON THE NUMBER OF EXONERATED INNOCENT INMATES OR FORMER INMATES. THE FACT IS, WE DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PUT TO DEATH IN THE USA, BUT THE NUMBERS ARE LIKELY TO BE IN THE HUNDREDS, BASED ON RECENT FINDINGS. TOOLS SUCH AS DNA TESTING WERE NOT AVAILABLE IN THE PAST TO CONCLUSIVELY PROVE INNOCENCE, AND THE NUMBER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE ON DEATH ROW RECENTLY EXONERATED BY DNA EVIDENCE AND OTHER EVIDENCE IS SHOCKING. FORMER GOVERNOR RYAN OF ILLINOIS RECENTLY COMMUTED ALL DEATH ROW SENTENCES AFTER CONCLUDING THE SYSTEM WAS SO FLAWED AND FULL OF CORRUPTION HE COULD NOT ALLOW EXECUTIONS TO CONTINUE. CHECK THE LINKS BELOW FOR INFO ON THE INNOCENT ON DEATH ROW AND THE FLAWS IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM: http://www.innocenceproject.org/ http://www.idoc.state.il.us/ccp/ccp/reports/commission_report/summary_recommendations.pdf http://justice.policy.net/cjreform/wrong/ God has given the state the power of the sword to punish wrongdoers. And God was not speaking merely of the flat of the sword for beating. Rather He requires the state to use the sharp edge against the wicked throat. THIS IS JUST YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE AND THEOLOGY, AN INTERPRETATION MANY WELL EDUCATED BIBLICAL SCHOLARS REFUTE. CONSIDER THE EVANGELIUM VITAE FROM THE VATICAN DEALING WITH THE THEOLOGICAL AND BIBLICAL BASIS AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html NO DOUBT YOU WILL PICK THE BIBLICAL SCHOLARSHIP THAT SUITS YOUR PRE-DETERMINED CONCLUSIONS, BUT I SEE NO REASON TO BELIEVE YOUR INTERPRETATION OF GOD'S LAW OVER THAT OF THE BIBLICAL SCHOLARS AT THE VATICAN. THERE ARE NUMEROUS ARGUMENTS AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY, BUT I BELIEVE THE FINAL AND BEST ARGUMENT IS THAT IT GIVES THE STATE TOO MUCH POWER. I BELIEVE IN LIMITING THE POWER OF THE STATE OVER THE INDIVIDUAL AS MUCH AS IS PRACTICAL, ASSUMING THAT EVERY POWER THE STATE IS GRANTED CAN AND WILL BE ABUSED. GRANTING THE STATE THE POWER TO KILL ITS OWN CITIZENS WHEN THEY ARE RESTRAINED AND JAILED MUST RANK AS AS ONE OF THE MOST DRACONIAN POWERS THE STATE COULD BE ALLOWED. Ted _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From timlohr@yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 03:48:48 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030724024848.47964.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> Tom, Do the politics of the messenger mean that Kerry didn't make the statement? TL --- Tom Hansen wrote: > Of course, one must realize that John McCaslin > stands slightly to the right > of Rush Limbaugh as relfected in the articles > authored by him at: > > http://www.townhall.com/columnists/johnmccaslin/archive.shtml > > Tom Hansen > Moscow, Idaho > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:09 PM > > To: vision2020@moscow.com > > Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on > Iraq > > > > > > Visionaries, > > The Democrats' Iraq stances are looking > > increasingly schizophrenic, no? > > TL > > > > > > > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY > > > By John McCaslin > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > KERRY'S WAR > > > > > > Suffice it to say that Democratic > presidential > > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" the theme > of > > > his campaign. > > > > > > On virtually every stump he's stood on this > > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has complained > that > > > President Bush sidestepped the congressionally > > > approved path to war by bypassing the United > > > Nations, by not building an international > coalition, > > > and simply by not doing what it was that he had > > > promised to do (actually, one could argue that > the > > > senator is wrong on all three counts). > > > > > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in favor of the > > > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now says, > with > > > the understanding that Mr. Bush would exhaust > every > > > remedy first. What was the big hurry, in other > > > words. > > > > > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, when > nobody > > > else in Washington except the Inside the Beltway > > > column led with an item headlined, "Finish the > > > mission." > > > > > > "Debate on whether to take out Saddam > Hussein, > > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as one > > > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we had > > > written. > > > > > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is > calling > > > for a 'strong' military attack in response to > the > > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of amassing a > > > stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.'B " > > > > > > Weapons of mass destruction? That's what > Mr. > > > Kerry called them. > > > > > > "As the senator points out, military might > is > > > the only language Saddam knows B and fears. > 'Saddam > > > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a currency > that > > > he understands and values, for his unacceptable > > > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should not be a > > > strike consisting only of a handful of cruise > > > missiles hitting isolated targets primarily of > > > presumed symbolic value. But how long this > military > > > action might continue and how it may escalate > ... > > > and how extensive it would reach are for the > [White > > > House National] Security Council and our allies > to > > > know and for Saddam Hussein to find out!'B " > > > > > > Just as you wished, Senator. > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > design software > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 04:29:07 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:29:07 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... Message-ID: Don and All: Part of the political process that we all ostensibly have a right to participate in involves, as everyone knows, focusing on the conduct and impact of groups whose agenda someone disagrees with to galvanize opposition to said group. In terms of Christ Church, St, Andrews and Logos, let everyone who wishes to comment on these groups and their agenda have their say. And Christ Church and Logos supporters can have their say. Pile it on! The more the merrier. What bothers me is the stereotyping and misleading "facts" being presented from any and all sides. But then again, is this not how politics works? If you can get your unpleasant stereotype to stick to your opponent, or promote misleading facts that make your agenda look good, you score points in the political arena. The issue in politics is often not TRUTH, but IMAGE. And US vs. THEM is a real psychological motivating engine to create group unity to further a cause. Part of the problem with progressives is they are too open minded and relativistic, too tolerant of other viewpoints, so they do not organize in groups with sufficient cohesion and power and fiery "true believer" fervor! This is one reason the progressives in America are on the ropes. Certainly the true believers at Christ Church do see the dichotomy between them and the non-believers as a real division that makes a difference. They do not see progressives in the phrasing of Mr. Kaag: "They" is us! To deny this is to deny reality! Anyways, I have spent some enjoyable times in Bucers, one night discussing St. Anselm's ontological argument for the existence of God. A rather interesting argument you rarely hear the faithful make. Ted >From: Don Kaag >To: Vision2020 >Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:57:13 -0700 > >Visionaries: > >Is anyone else getting tired of the constant sniping at Christ Church and >Logos that occurs on this site? > >Is there nothing else in Moscow and environs that attracts people's >attention, or that is worthy of discussion? Let's talk about the aquifer >some more, or the paucity of decent restaurants. > >We live, ostensibly, in a free republic, with separation of church and >state. No one, so far as I know, is holding a gun to anyone's head and >forcing them to attend Christ Church or to send their kids to Logos. So >what's the problem? Why can't the "progressive" people in this community >who talk loudly and constantly about freedom of speech, and equal treatment >for ethnic and gender minorities, and whine about how George W. Bush >"stole" the presidency, allow the members of Christ Church the same >freedoms they trumpet so loudly for their various groups and causes? Oh, I >know---the Christ Church folks are just not "like us"! > >I have lost count of the conversations with "progressive" friends, and >overheard comments in the Moscow High School faculty lounge and other >venues that dealt with "them" (i.e., Doug Wilson and his congregation...) >trying to "take over" Moscow. > >I have been told by friends that I should not patronize Bucers (and now the >new bakery on Friendship Square), because the people who own and run it are >members of Christ Church. What has that got to do with the quality of >their coffee or their cinnamon rolls? I like Bucers, although I would be >happy to have an alternative place which puts smokers off in a room by >themselves, plays soft classical music, has intellectually-challenging >books to read, and serves reasonably good wine by the glass. Someone else >open another place like Bucers, and I will spend time there, too. The >Corner Club or the Slurp 'n Burp just won't cut it---I dislike second-hand >smoke and I loathe country and western music. > >If I bothered to take the time to do a religious background check on every >establishment I do business with in Moscow, I wouldn't have the time to do >anything else. Perhaps it would save time if the City Council required any >business owned and operated by a Christ Church congregant to paint a large >cross on their window, or maybe they could be forced to wear a little cloth >cross sewn prominently to their clothing? Then we would all know which >establishments were run by "Untermenchen" in our town, and could avoid >giving them our business. > > Rumors abound. "They" are soliciting other conservative Christians to >move here and join their congregation, in an attempt to take over the >political process. "They" are trying to destroy the public school system. >"They", now that New Saint Andrews College has taken over the old GTE >building, will take over Friendship Square. > >Hey, reality check... "They" is us. People who live and work and worship >in this community are members of this community. Christ Church members >live here. They pay taxes. If they want to be involved in the political >process, or encourage their friends to move here, because it is a nice to >live and raise a family, more power to them. And if they organize, work >hard, and are willing to donate time to community affairs, and they >out-organize the local "progressives" (who are already a political minority >in this most Republican of states...) and have themselves elected to local >and state office, that's the way the political process works. > >If you don't like it, you are certainly welcome to work harder, or open >your own school, or get more "progressive" friends to move here, or run for >political office. Until then, find a new obsession, and stop complaining! > >Regards, > >Don Kaag > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 05:10:45 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:10:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C3515E.E1D6EB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Of course Kerry is trying to have it both ways. But it's silly to preten= d the Democrats are some sort of monolithic, single-minded party. If the= y were, they'd be in power right now. Tim, let go of the Democrats long enough to answer this question: Do you= think the Bush Administration has been honest, either in its buildup tow= ards war, or since that time, in presenting its rationales for the invasi= on of Iraq? Since they're in charge now, wouldn't you agree that it migh= t be more important to look at what they're doing, rather than focusing o= n Bill Clinton's groin? I for one would rather look elsewhere, and at it= ems with more significance. Sunil Ramalingam ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Lohrmann Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:52 PM To: thansen@moscow.com Cc: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq Tom, Do the politics of the messenger mean that Kerry didn't make the statement? TL --- Tom Hansen wrote: > Of course, one must realize that John McCaslin > stands slightly to the right > of Rush Limbaugh as relfected in the articles > authored by him at: > =20 > http://www.townhall.com/columnists/johnmccaslin/archive.shtml > =20 > Tom Hansen > Moscow, Idaho > =20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:09 PM > > To: vision2020@moscow.com > > Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on > Iraq > > > > > > Visionaries, > > The Democrats' Iraq stances are looking > > increasingly schizophrenic, no? > > TL > > > > > > > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY > > > By John McCaslin > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > KERRY'S WAR > > > > > > Suffice it to say that Democratic > presidential > > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" the theme > of > > > his campaign. > > > > > > On virtually every stump he's stood on this > > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has complained > that > > > President Bush sidestepped the congressionally > > > approved path to war by bypassing the United > > > Nations, by not building an international > coalition, > > > and simply by not doing what it was that he had > > > promised to do (actually, one could argue that > the > > > senator is wrong on all three counts). > > > > > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in favor of the > > > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now says, > with > > > the understanding that Mr. Bush would exhaust > every > > > remedy first. What was the big hurry, in other > > > words. > > > > > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, when > nobody > > > else in Washington except the Inside the Beltway > > > column led with an item headlined, "Finish the > > > mission." > > > > > > "Debate on whether to take out Saddam > Hussein, > > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as one > > > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we had > > > written. > > > > > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is > calling > > > for a 'strong' military attack in response to > the > > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of amassing a > > > stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.'B " > > > > > > Weapons of mass destruction? That's what > Mr. > > > Kerry called them. > > > > > > "As the senator points out, military might > is > > > the only language Saddam knows B=17 and fears. > 'Saddam > > > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a currency > that > > > he understands and values, for his unacceptable > > > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should not be a > > > strike consisting only of a handful of cruise > > > missiles hitting isolated targets primarily of > > > presumed symbolic value. But how long this > military > > > action might continue and how it may escalate > ... > > > and how extensive it would reach are for the > [White > > > House National] Security Council and our allies > to > > > know and for Saddam Hussein to find out!'B " > > > > > > Just as you wished, Senator. > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > design software > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > =20 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, =20 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. =20 http://www.fsr.net =20 mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com /////////////////////////////////////////////////////Get more from the We= b. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C3515E.E1D6EB00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Of course Kerr= y is trying to have it both ways.  But it's silly to pretend the Dem= ocrats are some sort of monolithic, single-minded party.  If they we= re, they'd be in power right now.
 
Tim, let g= o of the Democrats long enough to answer this question:  Do you thin= k the Bush Administration has been honest, either in its buildup towards = war, or since that time, in presenting its rationales for the invasion of= Iraq?  Since they're in charge now, wouldn't you agree that it migh= t be more important to look at what they're doing, rather than focusing o= n Bill Clinton's groin?  I for one would rather look elsewhere, and = at items with more significance.
 
Sunil Ramal= ingam
 
----- Original Message ----= -
Sent= : Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:52 PM
To: thansen@moscow.com
<= B>Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
= Subject: RE: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq
 Tom,
   Do the politics of the messenger mean = that Kerry
didn't make the statement?
   TL

--- To= m Hansen <thansen@moscow.com> wrote:
> Of course, one must re= alize that John McCaslin
> stands slightly to the right
> of = Rush Limbaugh as relfected in the articles
> authored by him at:>
>
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/johnmccaslin/archive= .shtml
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>= > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vision2020-admin@mosc= ow.com
> [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On
> > Behalf= Of Tim Lohrmann
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:09 PM
&= gt; > To: vision2020@moscow.com
> > Subject: [Vision2020] ANO= THER National Democrat on
> Iraq
> >
> >
> = > Visionaries,
> >    The Democrats' Iraq stan= ces are looking
> > increasingly schizophrenic, no?
> >=     TL
> >
> > >
> > > IN= SIDE THE BELTWAY
> > > By John McCaslin
> > >
= > ----------------------------------------------------
> > &g= t;      KERRY'S WAR
> > >
> &g= t; >      Suffice it to say that Democratic> presidential
> > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqga= te" the theme
> of
> > > his campaign.
> > >= ;
> > >      On virtually every stum= p he's stood on this
> > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat h= as complained
> that
> > > President Bush sidestepped t= he congressionally
> > > approved path to war by bypassing th= e United
> > > Nations, by not building an international
&= gt; coalition,
> > > and simply by not doing what it was that= he had
> > > promised to do (actually, one could argue that<= BR>> the
> > > senator is wrong on all three counts).
&= gt; > >
> > >      Forget that= Mr. Kerry voted in favor of the
> > > Iraq war resolution. H= e did so, he now says,
> with
> > > the understanding t= hat Mr. Bush would exhaust
> every
> > > remedy first. = What was the big hurry, in other
> > > words.
> > &g= t;
> > >      But let's revisit Nov.= 17, 1997, when
> nobody
> > > else in Washington excep= t the Inside the Beltway
> > > column led with an item headli= ned, "Finish the
> > > mission."
> > >
> &g= t; >      "Debate on whether to take out Sadd= am
> Hussein,
> > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far= as one
> > > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we had<= BR>> > > written.
> > >
> > >  = ;    "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is
> calling<= BR>> > > for a 'strong' military attack in response to
> t= he
> > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of amassing a
= > > > stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.'B "
> >= >
> > >      Weapons of mass des= truction? That's what
> Mr.
> > > Kerry called them.> > >
> > >      "As the s= enator points out, military might
> is
> > > the only l= anguage Saddam knows B=17 and fears.
> 'Saddam
> > > Hu= ssein should pay a grave price, in a currency
> that
> > &= gt; he understands and values, for his unacceptable
> > > beh= avior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should not be a
> > > strike co= nsisting only of a handful of cruise
> > > missiles hitting i= solated targets primarily of
> > > presumed symbolic value. B= ut how long this
> military
> > > action might continue= and how it may escalate
> ...
> > > and how extensive = it would reach are for the
> [White
> > > House Nationa= l] Security Council and our allies
> to
> > > know and = for Saddam Hussein to find out!'B "
> > >
> > >&n= bsp;     Just as you wished, Senator.
> > &g= t;
> >
> >
> > _______________________________= ___
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, e= asy-to-use web site
> design software
> > http://sitebuild= er.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
_______________________= ______________________________
> >  List services made avai= lable by First Step
> Internet,
> >  serving the comm= unities of the Palouse since
> 1994.
> >   =              = http://www.fsr.net
> >       =     mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> >
>
/= ////////////////////////////////////////////////////
> >
>=


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yaho= o! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sit= ebuilder.yahoo.com

_______________________________________________= ______
List services made available by First Step Internet,
servin= g the communities of the Palouse since 1994.  
  =              = http://www.fsr.net         &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;
          mailto:Vi= sion2020@moscow.com
//////////////////////////////////////////////////= ///

Get more from the W= eb. FREE MSN Explorer download : htt= p://explorer.msn.com

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C3515E.E1D6EB00-- From Brnieuwsma@softhome.net Thu Jul 24 06:03:13 2003 From: Brnieuwsma@softhome.net (Benjamin Nieuwsma) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:03:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Church and State Message-ID: <00c801c351a1$1ab15680$1f00a8c0@benjamin> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C35166.363A72A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings; On a slightly different (and hopefully nicer) topic, I am wondering if = anyone could explain to me how our current understanding of separation = of church and state is supported by the constitution, because it really = doesn't seem to be. In exemplum, I don't think that the argument against = having Bibles in public schools because that breaches the first = ammendment holds any water whatsoever. Perhaps I'm mistaken. If so, = please explain... Thanks and have a great evening! Benjamin ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C35166.363A72A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings;
 
On a slightly different (and hopefully = nicer)=20 topic, I am wondering if anyone could explain to me how our current=20 understanding of separation of church and state is supported by the=20 constitution, because it really doesn't seem to be. In exemplum, I don't = think=20 that the argument against having Bibles in public schools=20 because that breaches the first ammendment holds any = water=20 whatsoever. Perhaps I'm mistaken. If so, please explain...
 
Thanks and have a great = evening!
 
Benjamin
------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C35166.363A72A0-- From cape@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 06:12:08 2003 From: cape@moscow.com (Brent Capener) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:12:08 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] CLINTON SAYS BUSH MISTAKE UNDERSTANDIBLE Message-ID: <002a01c351a2$21f34a10$18f2f5c7@biff> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C35167.750CA470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, I'll bite. Can you say "Compassionate Independent". Or perhaps = someone who shows more concern with the welfare of our country than that = of his own party's agenda? A person who would accept that exploiting GW's mistakes do the country = more harm than good, rather than, well let's say, a group that spends = $50 million plus of my tax dollars to nail their opposition into lying = about a personal marital issue? Something which I really didn't want to = hear about or consider my business? =20 Just throwing this into the mix. Please, no deluge of "you unpatriotic = so-and-so emails. Thanks BC ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C35167.750CA470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK, I'll bite.  Can you say = "Compassionate=20 Independent".  Or perhaps someone who shows more concern with = the=20 welfare of our country than that of his own party's agenda?
A person who would accept that = exploiting GW's=20 mistakes do the country more harm than good, rather than, well = let's say, a=20 group that spends $50 million plus of my tax dollars to nail their=20 opposition into lying about a personal marital issue? Something which I = really=20 didn't want to hear about or consider  my business?  =
Just throwing this into the mix.  = Please, no=20 deluge of "you unpatriotic so-and-so emails.   =20 Thanks        = BC
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C35167.750CA470-- From timlohr@yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 06:14:47 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030724051447.87456.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> Sunil, I CAN'T let go of the Democrats--at least the national ones. They're so-o-o arrogantly condescending towards all sorts of behavior except when one of their own does it. Then it's fine! Kerry is going around criticizing W for doing exactly what he himself has recommended. That's the sort of hypocrisy that needs to be exposed over and over. As for Bill Clinton's groin--even though he has "opened the door" on that one(sorry, couldn't resist)--I only brought him(and not his groin) up this last time to speculate on why he would defend GW at the exact moment when his partymates seem to be making some hay over the W's uranium thingy. That seemed a little puzzling to most on here. They couldn't answer why he'd do it, and neither can I. In any case, Clinton's comments are directly relevant to what you write that you consider important below. Apparently ole Bill HAS looked at what W has and is doing and he doesn't see a whole lot wrong with it. The politics of all this is interesting, but as for my personal view on the buildup to the war. I don't believe it has made the country more secure against possible terrorist attacks. I'd much rather have seen these resources and in some cases manpower devoted to dramatically stepped up efforts at finding out just what and who is coming into our ports, across our own borders, living in our cities etc. As for the W administration's honesty. I believe his administration is run by the neocons, many of whom have written for years about how much they wanted to go to war with Iraq. The WMD idea was a way to justify what they wanted to do already. But again, so apparently did many of the Demos. including many of the ones travelling around to advance themselves by criticizing W right now. TL --- Sunil Ramalingam wrote: > Of course Kerry is trying to have it both ways. But > it's silly to pretend the Democrats are some sort of > monolithic, single-minded party. If they were, > they'd be in power right now. > > Tim, let go of the Democrats long enough to answer > this question: Do you think the Bush Administration > has been honest, either in its buildup towards war, > or since that time, in presenting its rationales for > the invasion of Iraq? Since they're in charge now, > wouldn't you agree that it might be more important > to look at what they're doing, rather than focusing > on Bill Clinton's groin? I for one would rather > look elsewhere, and at items with more significance. > > Sunil Ramalingam > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tim Lohrmann > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:52 PM > To: thansen@moscow.com > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat > on Iraq > > Tom, > Do the politics of the messenger mean that Kerry > didn't make the statement? > TL > > --- Tom Hansen wrote: > > Of course, one must realize that John McCaslin > > stands slightly to the right > > of Rush Limbaugh as relfected in the articles > > authored by him at: > > > > > http://www.townhall.com/columnists/johnmccaslin/archive.shtml > > > > Tom Hansen > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com > > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:09 PM > > > To: vision2020@moscow.com > > > Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat > on > > Iraq > > > > > > > > > Visionaries, > > > The Democrats' Iraq stances are looking > > > increasingly schizophrenic, no? > > > TL > > > > > > > > > > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY > > > > By John McCaslin > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > KERRY'S WAR > > > > > > > > Suffice it to say that Democratic > > presidential > > > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" the > theme > > of > > > > his campaign. > > > > > > > > On virtually every stump he's stood on > this > > > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has > complained > > that > > > > President Bush sidestepped the congressionally > > > > approved path to war by bypassing the United > > > > Nations, by not building an international > > coalition, > > > > and simply by not doing what it was that he > had > > > > promised to do (actually, one could argue that > > the > > > > senator is wrong on all three counts). > > > > > > > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in favor of > the > > > > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now says, > > with > > > > the understanding that Mr. Bush would exhaust > > every > > > > remedy first. What was the big hurry, in other > > > > words. > > > > > > > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, when > > nobody > > > > else in Washington except the Inside the > Beltway > > > > column led with an item headlined, "Finish the > > > > mission." > > > > > > > > "Debate on whether to take out Saddam > > Hussein, > > > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as one > > > > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we had > > > > written. > > > > > > > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is > > calling > > > > for a 'strong' military attack in response to > > the > > > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of amassing > a > > > > stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.'B " > > > > > > > > Weapons of mass destruction? That's what > > Mr. > > > > Kerry called them. > > > > > > > > "As the senator points out, military > might > > is > > > > the only language Saddam knows B and fears. > > 'Saddam > > > > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a > currency > > that > > > > he understands and values, for his > unacceptable > > > > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should not be > a > > > > strike consisting only of a handful of cruise > > > > missiles hitting isolated targets primarily of > > > > presumed symbolic value. But how long this > > military > > > > action might continue and how it may escalate > > ... > > > > and how extensive it would reach are for the > > [White > > > > House National] Security Council and our > allies > > to > > > > know and for Saddam Hussein to find out!'B " > > > > > > > > Just as you wished, Senator. > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > > design software > > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step > > Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > 1994. > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > /////////////////////////////////////////////////////Get > more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 07:11:34 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 23:11:34 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq Message-ID: Tim, I can't believe you don't see why Clinton said that. The Democratic Party is divided. The DLC and DNC want Lieberman and Edwards to win. The left wing of the party is fueled by anger and want Dean. A few others want Kerry because he is more moderate and served in the military. The Uranium words were giving Dean and Kerry the most traction. Clinton's words just pulled the traction and momentum right out from underneath Dean and Kerry moving Lieberman and Edwards into a better position. If WMD are found, Dean falls on his face and Kerry fades away. I have a hunch that there will be some weapons of mass destruction found, or planted, in the next 6 months. Clinton is saving the face of the Democratic Party in that event. I think it is smart. God help us if we have to choose between Bush and Dean in 2004. We might as well concede the 50 colonies back to the British and say this experiment is over in that event. Choosing between a man who lies and is incompetent and a man who does not tell the truth and is not competent, is not much of a choice if you ask most people. I support General Wesley Clark for President, no matter what! He has more qualifications than anyone in the ring now. He is a "to the slightly left" Ronald Reagan. Donovan J Arnold Donovan J Arnold >From: Tim Lohrmann >To: Sunil Ramalingam >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:14:47 -0700 (PDT) > >Sunil, > I CAN'T let go of the Democrats--at least the >national ones. They're so-o-o arrogantly condescending >towards all sorts of behavior except when one of their >own does it. Then it's fine! > Kerry is going around criticizing W for doing >exactly what he himself has recommended. That's the >sort of hypocrisy that needs to be exposed over and >over. > As for Bill Clinton's groin--even though he has >"opened the door" on that one(sorry, couldn't >resist)--I only brought him(and not his groin) up this >last time to speculate on why he would defend GW at >the exact moment when his partymates seem to be making >some hay over the W's uranium thingy. That seemed a >little puzzling to most on here. They couldn't answer >why he'd do it, and neither can I. > > In any case, Clinton's comments are directly >relevant to what you write that you consider important >below. Apparently ole Bill HAS looked at what W has >and is doing and he doesn't see a whole lot wrong with >it. > > The politics of all this is interesting, but as for >my personal view on the buildup to the war. I don't >believe it has made the country more secure against >possible terrorist attacks. I'd much rather have seen >these resources and in some cases manpower devoted to >dramatically stepped up efforts at finding out just >what and who is coming into our ports, across our own >borders, living in our cities etc. > As for the W administration's honesty. I believe >his administration is run by the neocons, many of whom >have written for years about how much they wanted to >go to war with Iraq. The WMD idea was a way to justify >what they wanted to do already. But again, so >apparently did many of the Demos. including many of >the ones travelling around to advance themselves by >criticizing W right now. > TL > > > >--- Sunil Ramalingam >wrote: > > Of course Kerry is trying to have it both ways. But > > it's silly to pretend the Democrats are some sort of > > monolithic, single-minded party. If they were, > > they'd be in power right now. > > > > Tim, let go of the Democrats long enough to answer > > this question: Do you think the Bush Administration > > has been honest, either in its buildup towards war, > > or since that time, in presenting its rationales for > > the invasion of Iraq? Since they're in charge now, > > wouldn't you agree that it might be more important > > to look at what they're doing, rather than focusing > > on Bill Clinton's groin? I for one would rather > > look elsewhere, and at items with more significance. > > > > Sunil Ramalingam > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tim Lohrmann > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:52 PM > > To: thansen@moscow.com > > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat > > on Iraq > > > > Tom, > > Do the politics of the messenger mean that Kerry > > didn't make the statement? > > TL > > > > --- Tom Hansen wrote: > > > Of course, one must realize that John McCaslin > > > stands slightly to the right > > > of Rush Limbaugh as relfected in the articles > > > authored by him at: > > > > > > > > >http://www.townhall.com/columnists/johnmccaslin/archive.shtml > > > > > > Tom Hansen > > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com > > > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > > > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:09 PM > > > > To: vision2020@moscow.com > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat > > on > > > Iraq > > > > > > > > > > > > Visionaries, > > > > The Democrats' Iraq stances are looking > > > > increasingly schizophrenic, no? > > > > TL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY > > > > > By John McCaslin > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > KERRY'S WAR > > > > > > > > > > Suffice it to say that Democratic > > > presidential > > > > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" the > > theme > > > of > > > > > his campaign. > > > > > > > > > > On virtually every stump he's stood on > > this > > > > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has > > complained > > > that > > > > > President Bush sidestepped the congressionally > > > > > approved path to war by bypassing the United > > > > > Nations, by not building an international > > > coalition, > > > > > and simply by not doing what it was that he > > had > > > > > promised to do (actually, one could argue that > > > the > > > > > senator is wrong on all three counts). > > > > > > > > > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in favor of > > the > > > > > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now says, > > > with > > > > > the understanding that Mr. Bush would exhaust > > > every > > > > > remedy first. What was the big hurry, in other > > > > > words. > > > > > > > > > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, when > > > nobody > > > > > else in Washington except the Inside the > > Beltway > > > > > column led with an item headlined, "Finish the > > > > > mission." > > > > > > > > > > "Debate on whether to take out Saddam > > > Hussein, > > > > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as one > > > > > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we had > > > > > written. > > > > > > > > > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is > > > calling > > > > > for a 'strong' military attack in response to > > > the > > > > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of amassing > > a > > > > > stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.'B " > > > > > > > > > > Weapons of mass destruction? That's what > > > Mr. > > > > > Kerry called them. > > > > > > > > > > "As the senator points out, military > > might > > > is > > > > > the only language Saddam knows B and fears. > > > 'Saddam > > > > > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a > > currency > > > that > > > > > he understands and values, for his > > unacceptable > > > > > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should not be > > a > > > > > strike consisting only of a handful of cruise > > > > > missiles hitting isolated targets primarily of > > > > > presumed symbolic value. But how long this > > > military > > > > > action might continue and how it may escalate > > > ... > > > > > and how extensive it would reach are for the > > > [White > > > > > House National] Security Council and our > > allies > > > to > > > > > know and for Saddam Hussein to find out!'B " > > > > > > > > > > Just as you wished, Senator. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > > > design software > > > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > > List services made available by First Step > > > Internet, > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > > 1994. > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > > > > >///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > > design software > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > >/////////////////////////////////////////////////////Get > > more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. >http://search.yahoo.com > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From cape@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 07:13:47 2003 From: cape@moscow.com (Brent Capener) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 23:13:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] D'oh! My spellcheck OK'd 'understandible'. (No further text message) Message-ID: <002501c351aa$beb9e590$18f2f5c7@biff> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C35170.11D33FF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C35170.11D33FF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C35170.11D33FF0-- From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jul 24 13:20:15 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 05:20:15 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Water In-Reply-To: <001b01c35158$6adf5920$6401a8c0@Dianne> Message-ID: <200307241223.h6OCN6QU035304@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C351A3.43A12820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I attended the Moscow Chamber of Commerce meeting yesterday. Larry Kirkland from PBAC spoke. Larry noted that 1.9% of all precipitation makes it to the Wanapum aquifer (the upper aquifer) resulting in more recharge than we are using. This collaborates what Elsa Kirsten Peters wrote in her Letter to the Editor. If anyone cares. Best, Dale _____ From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of French Sent: Wednesday, 23 July, 2003 13:24 To: Lewiston Morning Tribune; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Water To the editor: Elsa Kirsten Peters' July 17 letter purports to provide "facts, not rhetoric" about our groundwater. Unfortunately, her "facts" are more rhetorical than factual. Ms. Peters claims that water levels in the upper (Wanapum) aquifer "have done nothing but rise in my lifetime". But a chart in the 2000 Annual Report of the Palouse Basin Aquifer Committee (PBAC) shows Wanapum levels between 1976 and 2000 rose twelve years, remained level four years, and declined eight years. Most of the declining years happened after 1990, when Moscow increased pumping from the shallow aquifer because of improved filtration capabilities. Shifting even more pumping back to the Wanapum now would only accelerate those declines. Ms. Peters also claims that "Most water used in the summer goes to watering golf courses". The "real" fact is that local golf courses consume relatively little deep Grande Ronde water. The UI golf course is watered entirely with effluent from Moscow's wastewater treatment plant. The Elks course draws from the shallow aquifer that Ms. Peters (erroneously) claims isn't dropping at all. Irrigation at the WSU golf course isn't metered, so it can only be estimated. But even if 10% of WSU pumpage goes to the golf course, that would constitute little more than 2% of basinwide pumping from the deep aquifer. By contrast, data from the city of Pullman show 75-80% of their annual water use is residential, the remainder going to commercial and public uses. If the information were available, Moscow's usage would most likely mirror Pullman's. Ms. Peters' is correct that "Most water used in both Moscow and Pullman during the summer is not consumed by 'new housing developments,'" but residential consumers ARE by far the largest user group in the basin and should be expected to contribute the greatest amount to conservation efforts. Bill French, Director Palouse Water Conservation Network 202 E 7th St, Moscow, ID 83843 883-3937 * prairiedoc@moscow.com ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C351A3.43A12820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I attended the Moscow Chamber of Commerce = meeting=20 yesterday.
 
Larry Kirkland from PBAC spoke. = Larry noted that=20 1.9% of all precipitation makes it to the Wanapum aquifer (the upper = aquifer)=20 resulting in more recharge than we are using. This collaborates what = Elsa=20 Kirsten Peters wrote in her Letter to the Editor.
 
If=20 anyone cares.
 
Best,
Dale
 

From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of=20 French
Sent: Wednesday, 23 July, 2003 = 13:24
To:=20 Lewiston Morning Tribune; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject:=20 [Vision2020] Water

To the editor:

Elsa Kirsten Peters’ July 17 letter purports to provide = "facts, not=20 rhetoric" about our groundwater. Unfortunately, her "facts" are more=20 rhetorical than factual.

Ms. Peters claims that water levels in the upper (Wanapum) aquifer = "have=20 done nothing but rise in my lifetime". But a chart in the 2000 Annual = Report=20 of the Palouse Basin Aquifer Committee (PBAC) shows Wanapum levels = between=20 1976 and 2000 rose twelve years, remained level four years, and = declined eight=20 years. Most of the declining years happened after 1990, when Moscow = increased=20 pumping from the shallow aquifer because of improved filtration = capabilities.=20 Shifting even more pumping back to the Wanapum now would only = accelerate those=20 declines.

Ms. Peters also claims that "Most water used in the summer goes to = watering=20 golf courses". The "real" fact is that local golf courses consume = relatively=20 little deep Grande Ronde water. The UI golf course is watered entirely = with=20 effluent from Moscow’s wastewater treatment plant. The Elks = course draws from=20 the shallow aquifer that Ms. Peters (erroneously) claims isn’t = dropping at=20 all. Irrigation at the WSU golf course isn’t metered, so it can = only be=20 estimated. But even if 10% of WSU pumpage goes to the golf course, = that would=20 constitute little more than 2% of basinwide pumping from the deep = aquifer.=20

By contrast, data from the city of Pullman show 75-80% of their = annual=20 water use is residential, the remainder going to commercial and public = uses.=20 If the information were available, Moscow’s usage would most = likely mirror=20 Pullman’s. Ms. Peters’ is correct that "Most water used in = both Moscow and=20 Pullman during the summer is not consumed by ‘new housing = developments,’" but=20 residential consumers ARE by far the largest user group in the basin = and=20 should be expected to contribute the greatest amount to conservation=20 efforts.

Bill French,=20 = Director           = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;         =20 Palouse Water Conservation Network

202 E 7th St, Moscow, ID  83843

883-3937 * prairiedoc@moscow.com

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C351A3.43A12820-- From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 13:51:46 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 05:51:46 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq In-Reply-To: <20030724024848.47964.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No, Mr. Lohrmann. However, I believe that the same level of faith and confidence that people place in Rush Limbaugh should also be placed in John McCaslin, expecting that all things uttered or published by these self-righteous right wingers is extremely tainted. Tom Hansen MOscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Lohrmann [mailto:timlohr@yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:49 PM > To: thansen@moscow.com > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq > > > Tom, > Do the politics of the messenger mean that Kerry > didn't make the statement? > TL > > --- Tom Hansen wrote: > > Of course, one must realize that John McCaslin > > stands slightly to the right > > of Rush Limbaugh as relfected in the articles > > authored by him at: > > > > > http://www.townhall.com/columnists/johnmccaslin/archive.shtml > > > > Tom Hansen > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com > > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:09 PM > > > To: vision2020@moscow.com > > > Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on > > Iraq > > > > > > > > > Visionaries, > > > The Democrats' Iraq stances are looking > > > increasingly schizophrenic, no? > > > TL > > > > > > > > > > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY > > > > By John McCaslin > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > KERRY'S WAR > > > > > > > > Suffice it to say that Democratic > > presidential > > > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" the theme > > of > > > > his campaign. > > > > > > > > On virtually every stump he's stood on this > > > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has complained > > that > > > > President Bush sidestepped the congressionally > > > > approved path to war by bypassing the United > > > > Nations, by not building an international > > coalition, > > > > and simply by not doing what it was that he had > > > > promised to do (actually, one could argue that > > the > > > > senator is wrong on all three counts). > > > > > > > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in favor of the > > > > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now says, > > with > > > > the understanding that Mr. Bush would exhaust > > every > > > > remedy first. What was the big hurry, in other > > > > words. > > > > > > > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, when > > nobody > > > > else in Washington except the Inside the Beltway > > > > column led with an item headlined, "Finish the > > > > mission." > > > > > > > > "Debate on whether to take out Saddam > > Hussein, > > > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as one > > > > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we had > > > > written. > > > > > > > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is > > calling > > > > for a 'strong' military attack in response to > > the > > > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of amassing a > > > > stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.'B " > > > > > > > > Weapons of mass destruction? That's what > > Mr. > > > > Kerry called them. > > > > > > > > "As the senator points out, military might > > is > > > > the only language Saddam knows B and fears. > > 'Saddam > > > > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a currency > > that > > > > he understands and values, for his unacceptable > > > > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should not be a > > > > strike consisting only of a handful of cruise > > > > missiles hitting isolated targets primarily of > > > > presumed symbolic value. But how long this > > military > > > > action might continue and how it may escalate > > ... > > > > and how extensive it would reach are for the > > [White > > > > House National] Security Council and our allies > > to > > > > know and for Saddam Hussein to find out!'B " > > > > > > > > Just as you wished, Senator. > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > > design software > > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step > > Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > 1994. > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 13:56:48 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 05:56:48 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings Visionaires - Question concerning the New St. Andrews College: I understand that tax-exempt entities cannot actively participate in politics (i.e. contributions to political parties). Since the bakery part of SNA is not tax-exempt, could St. Andrews contribute to a political party/candidate through the bakery (something similar to money laundering)? I realize that this may be be unethical/illegal, but it also seems far too tempting for SNA. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Ted Moffett > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:29 PM > To: dkaag@turbonet.com > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christ Church... > > > Don and All: > > Part of the political process that we all ostensibly have a right to > participate in involves, as everyone knows, focusing on the conduct and > impact of groups whose agenda someone disagrees with to galvanize > opposition > to said group. > > In terms of Christ Church, St, Andrews and Logos, let everyone > who wishes to > comment on these groups and their agenda have their say. And > Christ Church > and Logos supporters can have their say. Pile it on! The more > the merrier. > > What bothers me is the stereotyping and misleading "facts" being > presented > from any and all sides. > > But then again, is this not how politics works? If you can get your > unpleasant stereotype to stick to your opponent, or promote > misleading facts > that make your agenda look good, you score points in the > political arena. > The issue in politics is often not TRUTH, but IMAGE. And US vs. > THEM is a > real psychological motivating engine to create group unity to further a > cause. > > Part of the problem with progressives is they are too open minded and > relativistic, too tolerant of other viewpoints, so they do not > organize in > groups with sufficient cohesion and power and fiery "true > believer" fervor! > This is one reason the progressives in America are on the ropes. > > Certainly the true believers at Christ Church do see the > dichotomy between > them and the non-believers as a real division that makes a > difference. They > do not see progressives in the phrasing of Mr. Kaag: "They" is > us! To deny > this is to deny reality! > > Anyways, I have spent some enjoyable times in Bucers, one night > discussing > St. Anselm's ontological argument for the existence of God. A rather > interesting argument you rarely hear the faithful make. > > Ted > > >From: Don Kaag > >To: Vision2020 > >Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:57:13 -0700 > > > >Visionaries: > > > >Is anyone else getting tired of the constant sniping at Christ > Church and > >Logos that occurs on this site? > > > >Is there nothing else in Moscow and environs that attracts people's > >attention, or that is worthy of discussion? Let's talk about the aquifer > >some more, or the paucity of decent restaurants. > > > >We live, ostensibly, in a free republic, with separation of church and > >state. No one, so far as I know, is holding a gun to anyone's head and > >forcing them to attend Christ Church or to send their kids to Logos. So > >what's the problem? Why can't the "progressive" people in this > community > >who talk loudly and constantly about freedom of speech, and > equal treatment > >for ethnic and gender minorities, and whine about how George W. Bush > >"stole" the presidency, allow the members of Christ Church the same > >freedoms they trumpet so loudly for their various groups and > causes? Oh, I > >know---the Christ Church folks are just not "like us"! > > > >I have lost count of the conversations with "progressive" friends, and > >overheard comments in the Moscow High School faculty lounge and other > >venues that dealt with "them" (i.e., Doug Wilson and his > congregation...) > >trying to "take over" Moscow. > > > >I have been told by friends that I should not patronize Bucers > (and now the > >new bakery on Friendship Square), because the people who own and > run it are > >members of Christ Church. What has that got to do with the quality of > >their coffee or their cinnamon rolls? I like Bucers, although I > would be > >happy to have an alternative place which puts smokers off in a room by > >themselves, plays soft classical music, has intellectually-challenging > >books to read, and serves reasonably good wine by the glass. > Someone else > >open another place like Bucers, and I will spend time there, too. The > >Corner Club or the Slurp 'n Burp just won't cut it---I dislike > second-hand > >smoke and I loathe country and western music. > > > >If I bothered to take the time to do a religious background > check on every > >establishment I do business with in Moscow, I wouldn't have the > time to do > >anything else. Perhaps it would save time if the City Council > required any > >business owned and operated by a Christ Church congregant to > paint a large > >cross on their window, or maybe they could be forced to wear a > little cloth > >cross sewn prominently to their clothing? Then we would all know which > >establishments were run by "Untermenchen" in our town, and could avoid > >giving them our business. > > > > Rumors abound. "They" are soliciting other conservative Christians to > >move here and join their congregation, in an attempt to take over the > >political process. "They" are trying to destroy the public > school system. > >"They", now that New Saint Andrews College has taken over the old GTE > >building, will take over Friendship Square. > > > >Hey, reality check... "They" is us. People who live and work > and worship > >in this community are members of this community. Christ Church members > >live here. They pay taxes. If they want to be involved in the > political > >process, or encourage their friends to move here, because it is > a nice to > >live and raise a family, more power to them. And if they organize, work > >hard, and are willing to donate time to community affairs, and they > >out-organize the local "progressives" (who are already a > political minority > >in this most Republican of states...) and have themselves > elected to local > >and state office, that's the way the political process works. > > > >If you don't like it, you are certainly welcome to work harder, or open > >your own school, or get more "progressive" friends to move here, > or run for > >political office. Until then, find a new obsession, and stop > complaining! > > > >Regards, > > > >Don Kaag > > > >_____________________________________________________ > >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the > >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 13:56:51 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 05:56:51 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Church and State In-Reply-To: <00c801c351a1$1ab15680$1f00a8c0@benjamin> Message-ID: It seems to me that if bibles are allowed in public schools, people are like to interpret that to mean that the state is endorsing one religion over another. On the other side of the coin, if bibles were barred from public schools, other people are likely to interpret that to mean that public school students are not permitted to practice their religion. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Benjamin Nieuwsma Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:03 PM To: Vision2020 Subject: [Vision2020] Church and State Greetings; On a slightly different (and hopefully nicer) topic, I am wondering if anyone could explain to me how our current understanding of separation of church and state is supported by the constitution, because it really doesn't seem to be. In exemplum, I don't think that the argument against having Bibles in public schools because that breaches the first ammendment holds any water whatsoever. Perhaps I'm mistaken. If so, please explain... Thanks and have a great evening! Benjamin From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 14:02:19 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 06:02:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq In-Reply-To: <20030724051447.87456.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tim Lohrmann stated: "I CAN'T let go of the Democrats--at least the national ones. They're so-o-o arrogantly condescending towards all sorts of behavior except when one of their own does it. Then it's fine! Kerry is going around criticizing W for doing exactly what he himself has recommended. That's the sort of hypocrisy that needs to be exposed over and over." The name Chenoweth comes to mind. Oh yeah. She was the congresswoman that openly criticized Clinton for his extra-marital affairs a couple days before it was revealed that she was having an affair. Tell us, Mr. Lohrmann, what color is the kettle today? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jul 24 14:18:10 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 06:18:10 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Gray water Message-ID: <200307241321.h6ODL2QU008360@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C351AB.5B766890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Visionaries, I would hope that we could all agree and get onboard with changing the Moscow "gray water" requirements for home use. The Moscow restrictions are far greater than those in either California or Arizona. In fact, back in 1996, California realized that its legislative requirements on gray water systems were too restrictive. Installing a gray water system requires: * Having the entire holding system underground (like a septic tank). * Having the entire watering system also underground (running underground plumbing to each tree/bush). Our gray water systems are self-imposed by the City of Moscow. I would encourage everyone to ask that these overly restrictive laws be replaced with those similar to California and Arizona. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C351AB.5B766890 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Visionaries,
 
I=20 would hope that we could all agree and get onboard with changing the = Moscow=20 "gray water" requirements for home use.
 
The=20 Moscow restrictions are far greater than those in either California or = Arizona.=20 In fact, back in 1996, California realized that its legislative = requirements on=20 gray water systems were too restrictive.
 
Installing a gray water system requires:
  • Having the entire holding system underground (like a septic = tank).=20
  • Having the entire watering system also underground (running = underground=20 plumbing to each tree/bush).
Our=20 gray water systems are self-imposed by the City of Moscow. I would = encourage=20 everyone to ask that these overly restrictive laws be replaced with = those=20 similar to California and Arizona.
 
Best,
Dale Courtney
Moscow,=20 Idaho
 
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C351AB.5B766890-- From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 14:43:33 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 06:43:33 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Gray water In-Reply-To: <200307241321.h6ODL2QU008360@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C351AE.E6EF2EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Courtney - And your remedy is . . . ? I realize that Moscow tap water is not the most potable in the world. That is why I filter my water. It costs a few bucks to filter, but I am happy with it. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Dale Courtney Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 6:18 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Gray water Visionaries, I would hope that we could all agree and get onboard with changing the Moscow "gray water" requirements for home use. The Moscow restrictions are far greater than those in either California or Arizona. In fact, back in 1996, California realized that its legislative requirements on gray water systems were too restrictive. Installing a gray water system requires: a.. Having the entire holding system underground (like a septic tank). b.. Having the entire watering system also underground (running underground plumbing to each tree/bush). Our gray water systems are self-imposed by the City of Moscow. I would encourage everyone to ask that these overly restrictive laws be replaced with those similar to California and Arizona. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C351AE.E6EF2EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr. = Courtney=20 -
 
And = your remedy=20 is . . . ?
 
I = realize that=20 Moscow tap water is not the most potable in the world.  That is why = I=20 filter my water.  It costs a few bucks to filter, but I am happy = with=20 it.
 
Tom = Hansen
Moscow,=20 Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Dale=20 Courtney
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 6:18 AM
To: = vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Gray=20 water

Visionaries,
 
I=20 would hope that we could all agree and get onboard with changing the = Moscow=20 "gray water" requirements for home use.
 
The=20 Moscow restrictions are far greater than those in either California or = Arizona. In fact, back in 1996, California realized that its = legislative=20 requirements on gray water systems were too restrictive. =
 
Installing a gray water system requires:
  • Having the entire holding system underground (like a septic = tank).=20
  • Having the entire watering system also underground (running = underground plumbing to each tree/bush).
Our=20 gray water systems are self-imposed by the City of Moscow. I would = encourage=20 everyone to ask that these overly restrictive laws be replaced with = those=20 similar to California and Arizona.
 
Best,
Dale Courtney
Moscow,=20 Idaho
 
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C351AE.E6EF2EE0-- From dougwils@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 16:11:00 2003 From: dougwils@moscow.com (Douglas) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:11:00 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030724080834.01bf25a8@mail.moscow.com> Visionaries, Jumping Jehoshaphat! And the basement under the bakery is ideal for hiding dead bodies and our cocaine inventory. Far too tempting . . . I feel myself weakening. Cordially, Douglas Wilson At 05:56 AM 7/24/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Greetings Visionaires - > >Question concerning the New St. Andrews College: I understand that >tax-exempt entities cannot actively participate in politics (i.e. >contributions to political parties). Since the bakery part of SNA is not >tax-exempt, could St. Andrews contribute to a political party/candidate >through the bakery (something similar to money laundering)? I realize that >this may be be unethical/illegal, but it also seems far too tempting for >SNA. > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > Behalf Of Ted Moffett > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:29 PM > > To: dkaag@turbonet.com > > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christ Church... > > > > > > Don and All: > > > > Part of the political process that we all ostensibly have a right to > > participate in involves, as everyone knows, focusing on the conduct and > > impact of groups whose agenda someone disagrees with to galvanize > > opposition > > to said group. > > > > In terms of Christ Church, St, Andrews and Logos, let everyone > > who wishes to > > comment on these groups and their agenda have their say. And > > Christ Church > > and Logos supporters can have their say. Pile it on! The more > > the merrier. > > > > What bothers me is the stereotyping and misleading "facts" being > > presented > > from any and all sides. > > > > But then again, is this not how politics works? If you can get your > > unpleasant stereotype to stick to your opponent, or promote > > misleading facts > > that make your agenda look good, you score points in the > > political arena. > > The issue in politics is often not TRUTH, but IMAGE. And US vs. > > THEM is a > > real psychological motivating engine to create group unity to further a > > cause. > > > > Part of the problem with progressives is they are too open minded and > > relativistic, too tolerant of other viewpoints, so they do not > > organize in > > groups with sufficient cohesion and power and fiery "true > > believer" fervor! > > This is one reason the progressives in America are on the ropes. > > > > Certainly the true believers at Christ Church do see the > > dichotomy between > > them and the non-believers as a real division that makes a > > difference. They > > do not see progressives in the phrasing of Mr. Kaag: "They" is > > us! To deny > > this is to deny reality! > > > > Anyways, I have spent some enjoyable times in Bucers, one night > > discussing > > St. Anselm's ontological argument for the existence of God. A rather > > interesting argument you rarely hear the faithful make. > > > > Ted > > > > >From: Don Kaag > > >To: Vision2020 > > >Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... > > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:57:13 -0700 > > > > > >Visionaries: > > > > > >Is anyone else getting tired of the constant sniping at Christ > > Church and > > >Logos that occurs on this site? > > > > > >Is there nothing else in Moscow and environs that attracts people's > > >attention, or that is worthy of discussion? Let's talk about the aquifer > > >some more, or the paucity of decent restaurants. > > > > > >We live, ostensibly, in a free republic, with separation of church and > > >state. No one, so far as I know, is holding a gun to anyone's head and > > >forcing them to attend Christ Church or to send their kids to Logos. So > > >what's the problem? Why can't the "progressive" people in this > > community > > >who talk loudly and constantly about freedom of speech, and > > equal treatment > > >for ethnic and gender minorities, and whine about how George W. Bush > > >"stole" the presidency, allow the members of Christ Church the same > > >freedoms they trumpet so loudly for their various groups and > > causes? Oh, I > > >know---the Christ Church folks are just not "like us"! > > > > > >I have lost count of the conversations with "progressive" friends, and > > >overheard comments in the Moscow High School faculty lounge and other > > >venues that dealt with "them" (i.e., Doug Wilson and his > > congregation...) > > >trying to "take over" Moscow. > > > > > >I have been told by friends that I should not patronize Bucers > > (and now the > > >new bakery on Friendship Square), because the people who own and > > run it are > > >members of Christ Church. What has that got to do with the quality of > > >their coffee or their cinnamon rolls? I like Bucers, although I > > would be > > >happy to have an alternative place which puts smokers off in a room by > > >themselves, plays soft classical music, has intellectually-challenging > > >books to read, and serves reasonably good wine by the glass. > > Someone else > > >open another place like Bucers, and I will spend time there, too. The > > >Corner Club or the Slurp 'n Burp just won't cut it---I dislike > > second-hand > > >smoke and I loathe country and western music. > > > > > >If I bothered to take the time to do a religious background > > check on every > > >establishment I do business with in Moscow, I wouldn't have the > > time to do > > >anything else. Perhaps it would save time if the City Council > > required any > > >business owned and operated by a Christ Church congregant to > > paint a large > > >cross on their window, or maybe they could be forced to wear a > > little cloth > > >cross sewn prominently to their clothing? Then we would all know which > > >establishments were run by "Untermenchen" in our town, and could avoid > > >giving them our business. > > > > > > Rumors abound. "They" are soliciting other conservative Christians to > > >move here and join their congregation, in an attempt to take over the > > >political process. "They" are trying to destroy the public > > school system. > > >"They", now that New Saint Andrews College has taken over the old GTE > > >building, will take over Friendship Square. > > > > > >Hey, reality check... "They" is us. People who live and work > > and worship > > >in this community are members of this community. Christ Church members > > >live here. They pay taxes. If they want to be involved in the > > political > > >process, or encourage their friends to move here, because it is > > a nice to > > >live and raise a family, more power to them. And if they organize, work > > >hard, and are willing to donate time to community affairs, and they > > >out-organize the local "progressives" (who are already a > > political minority > > >in this most Republican of states...) and have themselves > > elected to local > > >and state office, that's the way the political process works. > > > > > >If you don't like it, you are certainly welcome to work harder, or open > > >your own school, or get more "progressive" friends to move here, > > or run for > > >political office. Until then, find a new obsession, and stop > > complaining! > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > >Don Kaag > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the > > >communities of the Palouse since 1994. >http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From gdickison@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 16:03:12 2003 From: gdickison@moscow.com (Gregory Dickison) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:03:12 -0700 Subject: Fw: [Vision2020] Christ Church... Message-ID: <005d01c351f4$b3fedbc0$6501a8c0@wireless.fsr.net> Dear Visionaries: Here we go again. Homework not done (I *have* done mine on this), assumptions made, a baseless slander set forth, and a defense demanded from the accused. And so it goes. Cheers, Gregory C. Dickison Lawyer & Counselor at Law Post Office Box 8846 312 South Main Street Moscow, Idaho 83843 (208) 882-4009 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Hansen" > To: "Ted Moffett" ; > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 5:56 AM > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Christ Church... > > > > Greetings Visionaires - > > > > Question concerning the New St. Andrews College: I understand that > > tax-exempt entities cannot actively participate in politics (i.e. > > contributions to political parties). Since the bakery part of SNA is not > > tax-exempt, could St. Andrews contribute to a political party/candidate > > through the bakery (something similar to money laundering)? I realize > that > > this may be be unethical/illegal, but it also seems far too tempting for > > SNA. > > > > Tom Hansen > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > > Behalf Of Ted Moffett > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:29 PM > > > To: dkaag@turbonet.com > > > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christ Church... > > > > > > > > > Don and All: > > > > > > Part of the political process that we all ostensibly have a right to > > > participate in involves, as everyone knows, focusing on the conduct and > > > impact of groups whose agenda someone disagrees with to galvanize > > > opposition > > > to said group. > > > > > > In terms of Christ Church, St, Andrews and Logos, let everyone > > > who wishes to > > > comment on these groups and their agenda have their say. And > > > Christ Church > > > and Logos supporters can have their say. Pile it on! The more > > > the merrier. > > > > > > What bothers me is the stereotyping and misleading "facts" being > > > presented > > > from any and all sides. > > > > > > But then again, is this not how politics works? If you can get your > > > unpleasant stereotype to stick to your opponent, or promote > > > misleading facts > > > that make your agenda look good, you score points in the > > > political arena. > > > The issue in politics is often not TRUTH, but IMAGE. And US vs. > > > THEM is a > > > real psychological motivating engine to create group unity to further a > > > cause. > > > > > > Part of the problem with progressives is they are too open minded and > > > relativistic, too tolerant of other viewpoints, so they do not > > > organize in > > > groups with sufficient cohesion and power and fiery "true > > > believer" fervor! > > > This is one reason the progressives in America are on the ropes. > > > > > > Certainly the true believers at Christ Church do see the > > > dichotomy between > > > them and the non-believers as a real division that makes a > > > difference. They > > > do not see progressives in the phrasing of Mr. Kaag: "They" is > > > us! To deny > > > this is to deny reality! > > > > > > Anyways, I have spent some enjoyable times in Bucers, one night > > > discussing > > > St. Anselm's ontological argument for the existence of God. A rather > > > interesting argument you rarely hear the faithful make. > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > >From: Don Kaag > > > >To: Vision2020 > > > >Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... > > > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:57:13 -0700 > > > > > > > >Visionaries: > > > > > > > >Is anyone else getting tired of the constant sniping at Christ > > > Church and > > > >Logos that occurs on this site? > > > > > > > >Is there nothing else in Moscow and environs that attracts people's > > > >attention, or that is worthy of discussion? Let's talk about the > aquifer > > > >some more, or the paucity of decent restaurants. > > > > > > > >We live, ostensibly, in a free republic, with separation of church and > > > >state. No one, so far as I know, is holding a gun to anyone's head and > > > >forcing them to attend Christ Church or to send their kids to Logos. > So > > > >what's the problem? Why can't the "progressive" people in this > > > community > > > >who talk loudly and constantly about freedom of speech, and > > > equal treatment > > > >for ethnic and gender minorities, and whine about how George W. Bush > > > >"stole" the presidency, allow the members of Christ Church the same > > > >freedoms they trumpet so loudly for their various groups and > > > causes? Oh, I > > > >know---the Christ Church folks are just not "like us"! > > > > > > > >I have lost count of the conversations with "progressive" friends, and > > > >overheard comments in the Moscow High School faculty lounge and other > > > >venues that dealt with "them" (i.e., Doug Wilson and his > > > congregation...) > > > >trying to "take over" Moscow. > > > > > > > >I have been told by friends that I should not patronize Bucers > > > (and now the > > > >new bakery on Friendship Square), because the people who own and > > > run it are > > > >members of Christ Church. What has that got to do with the quality of > > > >their coffee or their cinnamon rolls? I like Bucers, although I > > > would be > > > >happy to have an alternative place which puts smokers off in a room by > > > >themselves, plays soft classical music, has intellectually-challenging > > > >books to read, and serves reasonably good wine by the glass. > > > Someone else > > > >open another place like Bucers, and I will spend time there, too. The > > > >Corner Club or the Slurp 'n Burp just won't cut it---I dislike > > > second-hand > > > >smoke and I loathe country and western music. > > > > > > > >If I bothered to take the time to do a religious background > > > check on every > > > >establishment I do business with in Moscow, I wouldn't have the > > > time to do > > > >anything else. Perhaps it would save time if the City Council > > > required any > > > >business owned and operated by a Christ Church congregant to > > > paint a large > > > >cross on their window, or maybe they could be forced to wear a > > > little cloth > > > >cross sewn prominently to their clothing? Then we would all know which > > > >establishments were run by "Untermenchen" in our town, and could avoid > > > >giving them our business. > > > > > > > > Rumors abound. "They" are soliciting other conservative Christians > to > > > >move here and join their congregation, in an attempt to take over the > > > >political process. "They" are trying to destroy the public > > > school system. > > > >"They", now that New Saint Andrews College has taken over the old GTE > > > >building, will take over Friendship Square. > > > > > > > >Hey, reality check... "They" is us. People who live and work > > > and worship > > > >in this community are members of this community. Christ Church members > > > >live here. They pay taxes. If they want to be involved in the > > > political > > > >process, or encourage their friends to move here, because it is > > > a nice to > > > >live and raise a family, more power to them. And if they organize, > work > > > >hard, and are willing to donate time to community affairs, and they > > > >out-organize the local "progressives" (who are already a > > > political minority > > > >in this most Republican of states...) and have themselves > > > elected to local > > > >and state office, that's the way the political process works. > > > > > > > >If you don't like it, you are certainly welcome to work harder, or open > > > >your own school, or get more "progressive" friends to move here, > > > or run for > > > >political office. Until then, find a new obsession, and stop > > > complaining! > > > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > > > >Don Kaag > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the > > > >communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > From tomh@uidaho.edu Thu Jul 24 16:01:10 2003 From: tomh@uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:01:10 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FF6@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Mr. Wilson, Mr. Dickison, et al - In no way was my posting meant to suggest or imply that NSA is currently (or has previously) contributing funds to any political party/candidate through its bakery. It is a simple question. "Would it be possible for NSA to contribute to a political party/candidate through its taxable bakery? Or is such activity (not specifically the NSA, but all tax exempt entities) being monitored in such a manner as to virtually eliminate the possibility? Could somebody (sans any paranoid response) answer these questions? Or does Mr. Dickison need more time to finish his homework? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: Douglas [mailto:dougwils@moscow.com] Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 8:11 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Christ Church... Visionaries, Jumping Jehoshaphat! And the basement under the bakery is ideal for hiding dead bodies and our cocaine inventory. Far too tempting . . . I feel myself weakening. Cordially, Douglas Wilson At 05:56 AM 7/24/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Greetings Visionaires - > >Question concerning the New St. Andrews College: I understand that >tax-exempt entities cannot actively participate in politics (i.e. >contributions to political parties). Since the bakery part of SNA is not >tax-exempt, could St. Andrews contribute to a political party/candidate >through the bakery (something similar to money laundering)? I realize that >this may be be unethical/illegal, but it also seems far too tempting for >SNA. > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > Behalf Of Ted Moffett > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:29 PM > > To: dkaag@turbonet.com > > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christ Church... > > > > > > Don and All: > > > > Part of the political process that we all ostensibly have a right to > > participate in involves, as everyone knows, focusing on the conduct and > > impact of groups whose agenda someone disagrees with to galvanize > > opposition > > to said group. > > > > In terms of Christ Church, St, Andrews and Logos, let everyone > > who wishes to > > comment on these groups and their agenda have their say. And > > Christ Church > > and Logos supporters can have their say. Pile it on! The more > > the merrier. > > > > What bothers me is the stereotyping and misleading "facts" being > > presented > > from any and all sides. > > > > But then again, is this not how politics works? If you can get your > > unpleasant stereotype to stick to your opponent, or promote > > misleading facts > > that make your agenda look good, you score points in the > > political arena. > > The issue in politics is often not TRUTH, but IMAGE. And US vs. > > THEM is a > > real psychological motivating engine to create group unity to further a > > cause. > > > > Part of the problem with progressives is they are too open minded and > > relativistic, too tolerant of other viewpoints, so they do not > > organize in > > groups with sufficient cohesion and power and fiery "true > > believer" fervor! > > This is one reason the progressives in America are on the ropes. > > > > Certainly the true believers at Christ Church do see the > > dichotomy between > > them and the non-believers as a real division that makes a > > difference. They > > do not see progressives in the phrasing of Mr. Kaag: "They" is > > us! To deny > > this is to deny reality! > > > > Anyways, I have spent some enjoyable times in Bucers, one night > > discussing > > St. Anselm's ontological argument for the existence of God. A rather > > interesting argument you rarely hear the faithful make. > > > > Ted > > > > >From: Don Kaag > > >To: Vision2020 > > >Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... > > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:57:13 -0700 > > > > > >Visionaries: > > > > > >Is anyone else getting tired of the constant sniping at Christ > > Church and > > >Logos that occurs on this site? > > > > > >Is there nothing else in Moscow and environs that attracts people's > > >attention, or that is worthy of discussion? Let's talk about the aquifer > > >some more, or the paucity of decent restaurants. > > > > > >We live, ostensibly, in a free republic, with separation of church and > > >state. No one, so far as I know, is holding a gun to anyone's head and > > >forcing them to attend Christ Church or to send their kids to Logos. So > > >what's the problem? Why can't the "progressive" people in this > > community > > >who talk loudly and constantly about freedom of speech, and > > equal treatment > > >for ethnic and gender minorities, and whine about how George W. Bush > > >"stole" the presidency, allow the members of Christ Church the same > > >freedoms they trumpet so loudly for their various groups and > > causes? Oh, I > > >know---the Christ Church folks are just not "like us"! > > > > > >I have lost count of the conversations with "progressive" friends, and > > >overheard comments in the Moscow High School faculty lounge and other > > >venues that dealt with "them" (i.e., Doug Wilson and his > > congregation...) > > >trying to "take over" Moscow. > > > > > >I have been told by friends that I should not patronize Bucers > > (and now the > > >new bakery on Friendship Square), because the people who own and > > run it are > > >members of Christ Church. What has that got to do with the quality of > > >their coffee or their cinnamon rolls? I like Bucers, although I > > would be > > >happy to have an alternative place which puts smokers off in a room by > > >themselves, plays soft classical music, has intellectually-challenging > > >books to read, and serves reasonably good wine by the glass. > > Someone else > > >open another place like Bucers, and I will spend time there, too. The > > >Corner Club or the Slurp 'n Burp just won't cut it---I dislike > > second-hand > > >smoke and I loathe country and western music. > > > > > >If I bothered to take the time to do a religious background > > check on every > > >establishment I do business with in Moscow, I wouldn't have the > > time to do > > >anything else. Perhaps it would save time if the City Council > > required any > > >business owned and operated by a Christ Church congregant to > > paint a large > > >cross on their window, or maybe they could be forced to wear a > > little cloth > > >cross sewn prominently to their clothing? Then we would all know which > > >establishments were run by "Untermenchen" in our town, and could avoid > > >giving them our business. > > > > > > Rumors abound. "They" are soliciting other conservative Christians to > > >move here and join their congregation, in an attempt to take over the > > >political process. "They" are trying to destroy the public > > school system. > > >"They", now that New Saint Andrews College has taken over the old GTE > > >building, will take over Friendship Square. > > > > > >Hey, reality check... "They" is us. People who live and work > > and worship > > >in this community are members of this community. Christ Church members > > >live here. They pay taxes. If they want to be involved in the > > political > > >process, or encourage their friends to move here, because it is > > a nice to > > >live and raise a family, more power to them. And if they organize, work > > >hard, and are willing to donate time to community affairs, and they > > >out-organize the local "progressives" (who are already a > > political minority > > >in this most Republican of states...) and have themselves > > elected to local > > >and state office, that's the way the political process works. > > > > > >If you don't like it, you are certainly welcome to work harder, or open > > >your own school, or get more "progressive" friends to move here, > > or run for > > >political office. Until then, find a new obsession, and stop > > complaining! > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > >Don Kaag > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the > > >communities of the Palouse since 1994. >http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From ddouglas@pacsim.com Thu Jul 24 16:10:28 2003 From: ddouglas@pacsim.com (David Douglas) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:10:28 -0400 Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c351f5$b8b9d650$e1e10e0a@LATITUDECPT5> Tom Hansen writes: "Question concerning the New St. Andrews College: I understand that tax-exempt entities cannot actively participate in politics (i.e. contributions to political parties). Since the bakery part of SNA is not tax-exempt, could St. Andrews contribute to a political party/candidate through the bakery (something similar to money laundering)? I realize that this may be unethical/illegal, but it also seems far too tempting for SNA." Interesting. Well, if sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, would it be ok to reword this in this way? : "Question concerning Tom Hansen, private citizen: I understand that tax-paying entities can actively participate in politics (i.e. contributions to political parties). However since funds are limited, perhaps Mr. Hansen can contribute more to those entities by paying less taxes (there are any number of ruses that can make it appear that you have less taxable income). I realize that this may be unethical/illegal, but it also seems far too tempting for Mr. Hansen." Oh, wait, I have no evidence by which Mr. Hansen's integrity should be impugned in this way. Never mind. Is this where the analogy breaks down? David Douglas From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jul 24 16:13:52 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:13:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] California Democrats Overheard On Budget: Milking Crisis Message-ID: <200307241516.h6OFGjQU073542@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C351BB.84D2FD60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit California Democrats Overheard On Budget GOP Cites Talk Of Milking Crisis Associated Press Wednesday, July 23, 2003; Page A03 SACRAMENTO, July 22 -- Unaware that a live microphone was broadcasting their words around the Capitol, Assembly Democrats meeting behind closed doors debated prolonging California's budget crisis for political gain. A microphone had been left on during the closed meeting Monday, and the conversation was transmitted to about 500 "squawk boxes" that enable staff members, lobbyists and reporters to listen in on legislative meetings. Some members of the group, including Assemblywoman Jackie Goldberg, said if the budget crisis were extended, it could improve chances for a ballot initiative that would make it easier for the Democrats to raise taxes. It would lower the threshold for passage from two-thirds to 55 percent. "No one is running" for reelection, she said, according to a transcript made by Republicans. "And maybe you end up better off than you would have, and maybe you don't. But what you do is show people that you can't get to this without a 55 percent vote." Assembly Republican Leader Dave Cox said he is disappointed that Democrats would consider using the budget crisis to their political advantage. Goldberg said her comments were part of a larger discussion about whether it would be better to make deeper cuts this year to give taxpayers a taste of how bad things would be without a tax increase. "It meant whether or not we do the things this year or next year that let the public understand how serious the situation is," Goldberg said. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C351BB.84D2FD60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

California Democrats Overheard On = Budget
GOP=20 Cites Talk Of Milking Crisis=20


Associated Press
Wednesday, July 23, 2003; = Page A03=20

SACRAMENTO, July 22 -- Unaware that a live microphone was = broadcasting their=20 words around the Capitol, Assembly Democrats meeting behind closed doors = debated=20 prolonging California's budget crisis for political gain.

A microphone had been left on during the closed meeting Monday, and = the=20 conversation was transmitted to about 500 "squawk boxes" that enable = staff=20 members, lobbyists and reporters to listen in on legislative = meetings.

Some members of the group, including Assemblywoman Jackie Goldberg, = said if=20 the budget crisis were extended, it could improve chances for a ballot=20 initiative that would make it easier for the Democrats to raise taxes. = It would=20 lower the threshold for passage from two-thirds to 55 percent.

"No one is running" for reelection, she said, according to a = transcript made=20 by Republicans. "And maybe you end up better off than you would have, = and maybe=20 you don't. But what you do is show people that you can't get to this = without a=20 55 percent vote."

Assembly Republican Leader Dave Cox said he is disappointed that = Democrats=20 would consider using the budget crisis to their political advantage.

Goldberg said her comments were part of a larger discussion about = whether it=20 would be better to make deeper cuts this year to give taxpayers a taste = of how=20 bad things would be without a tax increase.

"It meant whether or not we do the things this year or next year that = let the=20 public understand how serious the situation is," Goldberg=20 said.

------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C351BB.84D2FD60-- From eevans@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 17:30:29 2003 From: eevans@moscow.com (eevans@moscow.com) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:30:29 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church... Message-ID: <200307241604.h6OG4cQU053045@whale2.fsr.net> You must have missed #3 and #4 on the V2020 FAQ: #3 Q. I've got a suspicion I'd like to float to the list. Should I do a little research before posting? A. You may either A) Do your homework, or B) post to the list, but you may not do both! #4 Q. I've got a specific question about a local entity or person. Is the list an appropriate place to ask? A. It is considered bad etiquette to personally contact the entity or person. Public forums such as the list are perfect for this kind of question. Cheers, -Ed Evans > Dear Visionaries: > > Here we go again. Homework not done (I *have* done mine on this), > assumptions made, a baseless slander set forth, and a defense demanded from > the accused. > > And so it goes. > > Cheers, > > Gregory C. Dickison > Lawyer & Counselor at Law > Post Office Box 8846 > 312 South Main Street > Moscow, Idaho 83843 > (208) 882-4009 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Tom Hansen" > > To: "Ted Moffett" ; > > Cc: > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 5:56 AM > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Christ Church... > > > > > > > Greetings Visionaires - > > > > > > Question concerning the New St. Andrews College: I understand that > > > tax-exempt entities cannot actively participate in politics (i.e. > > > contributions to political parties). Since the bakery part of SNA is > not > > > tax-exempt, could St. Andrews contribute to a political party/candidate > > > through the bakery (something similar to money laundering)? I realize > > that > > > this may be be unethical/illegal, but it also seems far too tempting for > > > SNA. > > > > > > Tom Hansen > > > Moscow, Idaho --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 17:11:16 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:11:16 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] California Democrats Overheard On Budget: Milking Crisis Message-ID: What? No missing minutes on the tapes? I think all meetings should be publically broadcast. That would keep the government honest. Imagine, if that is what they Democrats say, I wonder what the Republicans say? Donovan J Arnold >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: [Vision2020] California Democrats Overheard On Budget: Milking >Crisis >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:13:52 -0700 > >California Democrats Overheard On Budget >GOP Cites Talk Of Milking Crisis > > > >Associated Press >Wednesday, July 23, 2003; Page A03 > > > >SACRAMENTO, July 22 -- Unaware that a live microphone was broadcasting >their >words around the Capitol, Assembly Democrats meeting behind closed doors >debated prolonging California's budget crisis for political gain. > >A microphone had been left on during the closed meeting Monday, and the >conversation was transmitted to about 500 "squawk boxes" that enable staff >members, lobbyists and reporters to listen in on legislative meetings. > >Some members of the group, including Assemblywoman Jackie Goldberg, said if >the budget crisis were extended, it could improve chances for a ballot >initiative that would make it easier for the Democrats to raise taxes. It >would lower the threshold for passage from two-thirds to 55 percent. > >"No one is running" for reelection, she said, according to a transcript >made >by Republicans. "And maybe you end up better off than you would have, and >maybe you don't. But what you do is show people that you can't get to this >without a 55 percent vote." > >Assembly Republican Leader Dave Cox said he is disappointed that Democrats >would consider using the budget crisis to their political advantage. > >Goldberg said her comments were part of a larger discussion about whether >it >would be better to make deeper cuts this year to give taxpayers a taste of >how bad things would be without a tax increase. > >"It meant whether or not we do the things this year or next year that let >the public understand how serious the situation is," Goldberg said. > _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From predator75@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 17:17:17 2003 From: predator75@moscow.com (Dan Carscallen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:17:17 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] California Democrats Overheard On Budget: Milking Crisis References: Message-ID: <003501c351ff$0d9d5170$831da13f@MOSCOW1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C351C4.60D0EA90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donovan asked: . . . I wonder what the Republicans say? They only say smart stuff . . . DC ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C351C4.60D0EA90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Donovan asked:
 
. . . I wonder what the Republicans say?

They only say smart stuff . . .
 
DC
------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C351C4.60D0EA90-- From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jul 24 17:37:39 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:37:39 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] California Democrats Overheard On Budget: Milking Crisis In-Reply-To: <003501c351ff$0d9d5170$831da13f@MOSCOW1> Message-ID: <200307241640.h6OGeWQU016235@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01C351C7.394F5CB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nah. They are just less likely to get caught with their pants down... Best, Dale _____ From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Dan Carscallen Sent: Thursday, 24 July, 2003 09:17 To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] California Democrats Overheard On Budget: Milking Crisis Donovan asked: . . . I wonder what the Republicans say? They only say smart stuff . . . DC ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01C351C7.394F5CB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nah. They are just less likely to get caught = with their=20 pants down...
 
Best,
Dale
 

From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Dan=20 Carscallen
Sent: Thursday, 24 July, 2003 09:17
To: = vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] California = Democrats=20 Overheard On Budget: Milking Crisis

Donovan asked:
 
. . . I wonder what the Republicans say?

They only say smart stuff . . .
 
DC
------=_NextPart_000_008F_01C351C7.394F5CB0-- From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 18:11:40 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:11:40 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] Televised Sessions Message-ID: <200307241645.h6OGjnQU026288@whale2.fsr.net> Greetings Visionaires - I am all for putting our cards on the table (as they say, whoever "they" are). I discussed an idea with my brother-in-law at our last family reunion. It is a basic, low-cost, and "truth in advertising" oriented concept. The state legislature could televise their sessions on a state-wide community network (or channel), much like C-SPAN but at state level. Any comments? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 17:49:15 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:49:15 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Bush's Africa trip Message-ID: My boss's daughter just returned from 2 years in the Gambia where she was in the Peace Corps. She received an e-mail from a Gambian friend detailing President Bush's visit to Senegal. He arrived in Senegal at 7:20 AM, and left at 1:30 PM. In the lead-up to his arrival, more than 1,500 people were arrested and jailed between the preceding Thursday and Monday. The U.S. Army planes flew day and night over Dakar, depriving residents of sleep. About 700 security people from the U.S. were there for Bush's security. Senegalese security forcesa were not allowed near the President. All trees in places where Bush would pass were cut down, some of these trees were over 100 years old. All roads going downtown, where hospitals, businesses, and schools are located were closed from Monday night to Tuesday afternoon at 3 PM. Residents could not go to their offices or schools. Sick people had to stay home. National exams that were scheduled to start on Monday were postponed until Wednesday. There is an island called Goree Island that faces Dakar. From the 15th to the 19th century, African slaves were shipped to America from this island. One of the island houses is now a museum designed to remind humanity of this period. It's been visited by many dignitaries (including Bill Clinton). But for "security reasons" the local population was chased out of their own homes from 5 to 12 AM. American security forces forced them to leave their houses open, including their wardrobes to be searched by dogs brought by U.S. security. The ferry that links the island to Dakar was stopped and offices and businesses were closed for the day. Senegal, a very poor country lost huge amounts of money during this visit, because workers were prevented from leaving their homes. King George brought his own armchairs, meals and drinks. Senegalese journalists were forbidden from the airport and where he was visiting. The Senegalese president was not allowed to speak, only Bush. The feeling among this poster's fellow Senegalese: "We have the feeling that everything has been done to convince us that we are nothing, and that America can behave the way it wants, everywhere, even in our country." Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From sslund@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 18:07:05 2003 From: sslund@moscow.com (Saundra Lund) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:07:05 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Gray water In-Reply-To: <200307241321.h6ODL2QU008360@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <002001c35206$02270960$6501a8c0@pooh> This is a topic of great interest to me & I'd like to learn more about gray watering systems. I never realized just how much water is wasted in our household until the outdoor water use restrictions last year (just as much of our garden was getting ready to produce in abundance) and we started collecting what we could to use outdoors. Things like waiting for the water to get hot before jumping into the shower or washing up, how much relatively clean water goes down the drain when showering (even short showers), how much water is wasted rinsing soap off dishes after washing them -- a real eye-opening experience! And, unfortunately, regularly hauling buckets of water aren't in this household's future as the adults have bad backs, and as we found out last year, water is heavy and awkward to carry around. About all I know about household gray watering systems is that the cost is significantly less when incorporated into new construction than it is to retrofit an existing home. So, if anyone has any info they care to share, including cost ideas, I'd love to learn more -- the pros & cons :-)) Mr. Courtney, since it seems like you've already done some research, can you please share more about how Moscow's gray water requirements differ from those in places like CA & AZ? If not, can you point us to where we can learn more? I'm also interested in knowing why gray watering systems aren't mandatory for new construction in Moscow? With my extremely limited knowledge, it would seem to me that requiring gray watering systems in new construction would result in significant water savings for our community. In at least some locations in CA, which Mr. Courtney references, things like interior fire sprinkler systems, not to mention meeting earthquake standards, etc., are required for new *home* (not just commercial) construction, all of which add to costs. Yet, the Powers That Be have decided that the benefits are well worth the increased costs. Why has our community not made a similar decision with respect to wise water use and conservation? Is there a prohibition against this at the state level? Also, what about property tax credits for installing gray watering systems, and, while I'm at it, are there state income tax credits for retrofitting existing homes with gray watering systems? If not, why not? It's my understanding that there are energy tax credits for things like new roofs, furnaces, windows, etc? Encouraging water conservation at the household level seems to me to be just important. Please, no slams, though, for not having done homework to be able to answer my own questions! Since water seems to be a . . . less touchy topic than some others on this list, perhaps that wouldn't happen, but it *really* is tiresome & discouraging to read the insults (rather answers) thrown around when someone asks what seem to me, at least, to be reasonable questions on any topic. Just some thoughts during this HOT time of year! TIA, Saundra Lund Moscow, Idaho The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. Edmund Burke -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Dale Courtney Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 6:18 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Gray water Visionaries, I would hope that we could all agree and get onboard with changing the Moscow "gray water" requirements for home use. The Moscow restrictions are far greater than those in either California or Arizona. In fact, back in 1996, California realized that its legislative requirements on gray water systems were too restrictive. Installing a gray water system requires: Having the entire holding system underground (like a septic tank). Having the entire watering system also underground (running underground plumbing to each tree/bush). Our gray water systems are self-imposed by the City of Moscow. I would encourage everyone to ask that these overly restrictive laws be replaced with those similar to California and Arizona. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 18:32:32 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] CHRIST church - DOWN FOR THE COUNT!!!!!! Message-ID: <20030724173233.11047.qmail@web80604.mail.yahoo.com> --0-624477350-1059067952=:10108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii CHRIST church - DOWN FOR THE COUNT!!!!!! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-624477350-1059067952=:10108 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
CHRIST church - DOWN FOR THE COUNT!!!!!!

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-624477350-1059067952=:10108-- From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jul 24 19:12:25 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:12:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Gray water In-Reply-To: <002001c35206$02270960$6501a8c0@pooh> Message-ID: <200307241815.h6OIFJQU082147@whale2.fsr.net> Sandra wrote: > Mr. Courtney, since it seems like you've already done some > research, can you please share more about how Moscow's gray > water requirements differ from those in places like CA & AZ? > If not, can you point us to where we can learn more? Here is the Arizona law: http://co.coconino.az.us/files/pdfs/health/GrayWater.pdf Here is the California law: http://www.owue.water.ca.gov/recycle/docs/TaskForceCondensedRecommendations. pdf http://www.owue.water.ca.gov/recycle/docs/Appendix_D_AppendixJ.pdf http://www.owue.water.ca.gov/recycle/docs/042703DeniseStLaurent.pdf Moscow's requirements are not online. I'm copying Tom Scallorn (MWD Admin/Policies) to see if he can provide those to us. If you are interested in a great water reuse site, see: http://www.watereuse.org Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From timlohr@yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 19:12:50 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030724181250.87897.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Tom, You're right and Chenoweth wasn't the only GOP'er who criticized Billy boy while having a few of their own irons in the fire, so to speak. At least Helen DID live up to her pledge of 3 terms and then out. That's more than many of the CONTRACT WITH AMERICA class of '94 Congresscritters did. Look at George Nethercutt for example. I can't be responsive to your last question though. I guess it's just me, but I have no idea what asking the color of a kettle means exactly. Sorry. Later, L --- Tom Hansen wrote: > Tim Lohrmann stated: > > "I CAN'T let go of the Democrats--at least the > national ones. They're so-o-o > arrogantly condescending towards all sorts of > behavior except when one of > their own does it. Then it's fine! Kerry is going > around criticizing W for > doing exactly what he himself has recommended. > That's the sort of hypocrisy > that needs to be exposed over and over." > > The name Chenoweth comes to mind. Oh yeah. She was > the congresswoman that > openly criticized Clinton for his extra-marital > affairs a couple days before > it was revealed that she was having an affair. > > Tell us, Mr. Lohrmann, what color is the kettle > today? > > Tom Hansen > Moscow, Idaho > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From sdredge@yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 19:16:12 2003 From: sdredge@yahoo.com (Scott Dredge) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] California Democrats Overheard On Budget: Milking Crisis In-Reply-To: <200307241640.h6OGeWQU016235@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <20030724181612.60053.qmail@web10504.mail.yahoo.com> Republicans are less likely to get caught with their pants down? Hmmm...Bob Livingston, Newt Gingrich, Helen Chenowith, Dan Burton, Henry Hyde (oh yes, this was just a "youthful" indescretion at age 46) versus Bill Clinton, Gary Hart, Jesse Jackson and...well I'm sure there are some more on the left. It's not very clear to me that being conservative or liberal has much of an influence on engaging in extra marital activities. These are mutually exclusive...just like religion and ethics. -SD --- Dale Courtney wrote: > Nah. They are just less likely to get caught with > their pants down... > > Best, > Dale > > > > _____ > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On > Behalf Of Dan Carscallen > Sent: Thursday, 24 July, 2003 09:17 > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] California Democrats > Overheard On Budget: Milking > Crisis > > > Donovan asked: > > . . . I wonder what the Republicans say? > > > They only say smart stuff . . . > > DC > > From timlohr@yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 19:21:34 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030724182134.81802.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Tom, Does the opposite apply as well? If someone is a leftwinger should we discount what he/she says as well? Tom Brokaw once appeared on the front of MOTHER JONES magazine. Too leftie to believe? Or do political views somehow only affect the credibility of those of this or that persuasion? TL --- Tom Hansen wrote: > No, Mr. Lohrmann. However, I believe that the same > level of faith and > confidence that people place in Rush Limbaugh should > also be placed in John > McCaslin, expecting that all things uttered or > published by these > self-righteous right wingers is extremely tainted. > > Tom Hansen > MOscow, Idaho > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tim Lohrmann [mailto:timlohr@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:49 PM > > To: thansen@moscow.com > > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National > Democrat on Iraq > > > > > > Tom, > > Do the politics of the messenger mean that > Kerry > > didn't make the statement? > > TL > > > > --- Tom Hansen wrote: > > > Of course, one must realize that John McCaslin > > > stands slightly to the right > > > of Rush Limbaugh as relfected in the articles > > > authored by him at: > > > > > > > > > http://www.townhall.com/columnists/johnmccaslin/archive.shtml > > > > > > Tom Hansen > > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com > > > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > > > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:09 PM > > > > To: vision2020@moscow.com > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National > Democrat on > > > Iraq > > > > > > > > > > > > Visionaries, > > > > The Democrats' Iraq stances are looking > > > > increasingly schizophrenic, no? > > > > TL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY > > > > > By John McCaslin > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > KERRY'S WAR > > > > > > > > > > Suffice it to say that Democratic > > > presidential > > > > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" the > theme > > > of > > > > > his campaign. > > > > > > > > > > On virtually every stump he's stood on > this > > > > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has > complained > > > that > > > > > President Bush sidestepped the > congressionally > > > > > approved path to war by bypassing the United > > > > > Nations, by not building an international > > > coalition, > > > > > and simply by not doing what it was that he > had > > > > > promised to do (actually, one could argue > that > > > the > > > > > senator is wrong on all three counts). > > > > > > > > > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in favor of > the > > > > > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now says, > > > with > > > > > the understanding that Mr. Bush would > exhaust > > > every > > > > > remedy first. What was the big hurry, in > other > > > > > words. > > > > > > > > > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, when > > > nobody > > > > > else in Washington except the Inside the > Beltway > > > > > column led with an item headlined, "Finish > the > > > > > mission." > > > > > > > > > > "Debate on whether to take out Saddam > > > Hussein, > > > > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as one > > > > > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we > had > > > > > written. > > > > > > > > > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is > > > calling > > > > > for a 'strong' military attack in response > to > > > the > > > > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of > amassing a > > > > > stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.'B > " > > > > > > > > > > Weapons of mass destruction? That's > what > > > Mr. > > > > > Kerry called them. > > > > > > > > > > "As the senator points out, military > might > > > is > > > > > the only language Saddam knows B and fears. > > > 'Saddam > > > > > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a > currency > > > that > > > > > he understands and values, for his > unacceptable > > > > > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should not > be a > > > > > strike consisting only of a handful of > cruise > > > > > missiles hitting isolated targets primarily > of > > > > > presumed symbolic value. But how long this > > > military > > > > > action might continue and how it may > escalate > > > ... > > > > > and how extensive it would reach are for the > > > [White > > > > > House National] Security Council and our > allies > > > to > > > > > know and for Saddam Hussein to find out!'B " > > > > > > > > > > Just as you wished, Senator. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web > site > > > design software > > > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > > > List services made available by First Step > > > Internet, > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > > 1994. > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > > > > > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > design software > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 19:55:39 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:55:39 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] Taxes Message-ID: <200307241829.h6OITnQU009003@whale2.fsr.net> Greetings Visionaires - The other night (rather late) on television, a network conducted an on-the- street survey concerning taxes during the Clinton administration versus taxes during the George Jr. administration. One very interesting response was something like: "Yes. My taxes were considerably higher four years ago (under the Clinton administration) than they are now. I had a job then." Think about it. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jul 24 19:33:39 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:33:39 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] California Democrats Overheard On Budget: Milking Crisis In-Reply-To: <20030724181612.60053.qmail@web10504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200307241836.h6OIaXQU021445@whale2.fsr.net> Scott wrote: > Republicans are less likely to get caught with their pants > down? Hmmm...Bob Livingston, Newt Gingrich, Helen Chenowith, > Dan Burton, Henry Hyde (oh yes, this was just a "youthful" > indescretion at age 46) versus Bill Clinton, Gary Hart, Jesse > Jackson and...well I'm sure there are some more on the left. > It's not very clear to me that being conservative or liberal > has much of an influence on engaging in extra marital > activities. These are mutually exclusive...just like > religion and ethics. Scott, I guess my sarcasm was a little too subtle. My swipe was at Clinton being *caught* with his pants down. The Republicans have been caught -- but not with their flies open for the world to read of the account in the daily newspaper. The Republicans do *not* have the higher ground here. That was *not* what I was intending on saying. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From timlohr@yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 19:47:04 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030724184704.85944.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Donovan, FINALLY! Now this is what I wanted out of what was becoming a tiresome discussion--some genuine political analysis. I was starting to think everyone on here was too defensive about their precious Democrat party to be able to discuss what in the heck they're doing. I think you've made some darned good points. But what about Gephardt? You think he's not in the picture at all? The only reason I do is because he's apparently got a good start in Iowa for those ridiculous caucuses that the press always puts so much stock in. I think he might get off to a good start at least, and possibly after a victory in Iowa become a more moderate, labor-backed alternative to Kerry and Dean in their almost home turf of New Hampshire. So, if Dean and Kerry split the more liberal votes, Gephardt could do well there. I'm not sure if I agree with you or not about whether Dean fades if WMD's are found. You're right, of course, that he's appealing to the more liberal wing by criticizing Bush on foreign policy but I believe that his support is pretty deep. In other words, the people that DO support him are true believers who won't be swayed. Remember, we're talking Demo primary voters here, not the general election. I'm sure they'll be forgiving about criticism of Bush for any reason. Dean will of course be a weak candidate in the Gen. Election, but so will Bush, and somebody's got to win, right? AS for Lieberman, I don't think he's going anywhere because most people just can't visualize the guy as president. Edwards might just catch on yet. But I think he needs to do it pretty quick if he's going to start getting the money he's going to need from any sector of big contributors other than his fellow trial lawyers. Personally, I believe one of the under reported aspects of this primary race is the effect Al Sharpton will have. Of course it won't be much in Iowa or NH where there are fewer minority voters. But when the race moves to South Carolina and other Southern states where blacks make up a very large percentage of Demo primary voters, I think Ole Al will pick up quite a few delegates. Jesse Jackson sure did. Then it will be interesting to watch the Demo bigwigs trying to shut Sharpton up (let's face it the guy DOES come up with some interesting rants now and then) while at the same time keeping black voters on their side. That might be a tough one. TL --- Donovan Arnold wrote: > Tim, > > I can't believe you don't see why Clinton said that. > The Democratic Party is > divided. The DLC and DNC want Lieberman and Edwards > to win. The left wing of > the party is fueled by anger and want Dean. A few > others want Kerry because > he is more moderate and served in the military. The > Uranium words were > giving Dean and Kerry the most traction. Clinton's > words just pulled the > traction and momentum right out from underneath Dean > and Kerry moving > Lieberman and Edwards into a better position. If WMD > are found, Dean falls > on his face and Kerry fades away. I have a hunch > that there will be some > weapons of mass destruction found, or planted, in > the next 6 months. Clinton > is saving the face of the Democratic Party in that > event. I think it is > smart. God help us if we have to choose between Bush > and Dean in 2004. We > might as well concede the 50 colonies back to the > British and say this > experiment is over in that event. Choosing between > a man who lies and is > incompetent and a man who does not tell the truth > and is not competent, is > not much of a choice if you ask most people. > I support General Wesley Clark for President, no > matter what! He has more > qualifications than anyone in the ring now. He is a > "to the slightly left" > Ronald Reagan. > > Donovan J Arnold > > Donovan J Arnold > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > >To: Sunil Ramalingam > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat > on Iraq > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:14:47 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Sunil, > > I CAN'T let go of the Democrats--at least the > >national ones. They're so-o-o arrogantly > condescending > >towards all sorts of behavior except when one of > their > >own does it. Then it's fine! > > Kerry is going around criticizing W for doing > >exactly what he himself has recommended. That's the > >sort of hypocrisy that needs to be exposed over and > >over. > > As for Bill Clinton's groin--even though he > has > >"opened the door" on that one(sorry, couldn't > >resist)--I only brought him(and not his groin) up > this > >last time to speculate on why he would defend GW at > >the exact moment when his partymates seem to be > making > >some hay over the W's uranium thingy. That seemed a > >little puzzling to most on here. They couldn't > answer > >why he'd do it, and neither can I. > > > > In any case, Clinton's comments are directly > >relevant to what you write that you consider > important > >below. Apparently ole Bill HAS looked at what W has > >and is doing and he doesn't see a whole lot wrong > with > >it. > > > > The politics of all this is interesting, but as > for > >my personal view on the buildup to the war. I don't > >believe it has made the country more secure against > >possible terrorist attacks. I'd much rather have > seen > >these resources and in some cases manpower devoted > to > >dramatically stepped up efforts at finding out just > >what and who is coming into our ports, across our > own > >borders, living in our cities etc. > > As for the W administration's honesty. I > believe > >his administration is run by the neocons, many of > whom > >have written for years about how much they wanted > to > >go to war with Iraq. The WMD idea was a way to > justify > >what they wanted to do already. But again, so > >apparently did many of the Demos. including many of > >the ones travelling around to advance themselves by > >criticizing W right now. > > TL > > > > > > > >--- Sunil Ramalingam > >wrote: > > > Of course Kerry is trying to have it both ways. > But > > > it's silly to pretend the Democrats are some > sort of > > > monolithic, single-minded party. If they were, > > > they'd be in power right now. > > > > > > Tim, let go of the Democrats long enough to > answer > > > this question: Do you think the Bush > Administration > > > has been honest, either in its buildup towards > war, > > > or since that time, in presenting its rationales > for > > > the invasion of Iraq? Since they're in charge > now, > > > wouldn't you agree that it might be more > important > > > to look at what they're doing, rather than > focusing > > > on Bill Clinton's groin? I for one would rather > > > look elsewhere, and at items with more > significance. > > > > > > Sunil Ramalingam > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Tim Lohrmann > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:52 PM > > > To: thansen@moscow.com > > > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National > Democrat > > > on Iraq > > > > > > Tom, > > > Do the politics of the messenger mean that > Kerry > > > didn't make the statement? > > > TL > > > > > > --- Tom Hansen wrote: > > > > Of course, one must realize that John McCaslin > > > > stands slightly to the right > > > > of Rush Limbaugh as relfected in the articles > > > > authored by him at: > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.townhall.com/columnists/johnmccaslin/archive.shtml > > > > > > > > Tom Hansen > > > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com > > > > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > > > > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:09 PM > > > > > To: vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National > Democrat > > > on > > > > Iraq > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visionaries, > > > > > The Democrats' Iraq stances are looking > > > > > increasingly schizophrenic, no? > > > > > TL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY > > > > > > By John McCaslin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > KERRY'S WAR > > > > > > > > > > > > Suffice it to say that Democratic > > > > presidential > > > > > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" the > > > theme > > > > of > > > > > > his campaign. > > > > > > > > > > > > On virtually every stump he's stood > on > > > this > > > > > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has > > > complained > > > > that > > > > > > President Bush sidestepped the > congressionally > > > > > > approved path to war by bypassing the > United > > > > > > Nations, by not building an international > > > > coalition, > > > > > > and simply by not doing what it was that > he > > > had > > > > > > promised to do (actually, one could argue > that > > > > the > > > > > > senator is wrong on all three counts). > > > > > > > > > > > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in favor > of > > > the > > > > > > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now > says, > > > > with > > > > > > the understanding that Mr. Bush would > exhaust > > > > every > > > > > > remedy first. What was the big hurry, in > other > > > > > > words. > > > > > > > > > > > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, when > > > > nobody > > > > > > else in Washington except the Inside the > > > Beltway > > > > > > column led with an item headlined, "Finish > the > > > > > > mission." > > > > > > > > > > > > "Debate on whether to take out Saddam > > > > Hussein, > > > > > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as one > > > > > > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we > had > > > > > > written. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is > > > > calling > > > > > > for a 'strong' military attack in response > to > > > > the > > > > > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of > amassing > > > a > > > > > > stockpile of weapons of mass > destruction.'B " > > > > > > > > > > > > Weapons of mass destruction? That's > what > > > > Mr. > > > > > > Kerry called them. > > > > > > > > > > > > "As the senator points out, military > > > might > > > > is > > > > > > the only language Saddam knows B and > fears. > > > > 'Saddam > > > > > > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a > > > currency > > > > that > > > > > > he understands and values, for his > > > unacceptable > > > > > > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should > not be > > > a > > > > > > strike consisting only of a handful of > cruise > > > > > > missiles hitting isolated targets > primarily of > > > > > > presumed symbolic value. But how long this > > > > military > > > > > > action might continue and how it may > escalate > > > > ... > > > > > > and how extensive it would reach are for > the > > > > [White > > > > > > House National] Security Council and our > > > allies > > > > to > > > > > > know and for Saddam Hussein to find out!'B > " > > > > > > > > > > > > Just as you wished, Senator. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web > site > > > > design software > > > > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > > > List services made available by First Step > > > > Internet, > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse > since > > > > 1994. > > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > >///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > > > design software > > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > >/////////////////////////////////////////////////////Get > > > more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > >http://search.yahoo.com > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months > FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jul 24 20:04:20 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:04:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] There go our rights again: Ice Cream 'Isn't Health Food'-Study Message-ID: <200307241907.h6OJ7EQU075325@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C1_01C351DB.B70EE440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Those who think that they can take better care of everyone else's bodies than their own are at it again -- this time with ice cream! Can someone please tell me why we cannot longer enjoy to eat, drink, and be merry without someone trying to sue away our rights to do so? Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho _____ Ice Cream 'Isn't Health Food'-Study http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2 &cid=573&u=/nm/20030724/od_nm/health_icecream_dc&printer=1 By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The healthy food watchdog that took all the fun out of Chinese take-out and movie popcorn has done it again, this time with summer's favored treat -- ice cream. "Everyone knows that ice cream isn't a health food," the Center for Science in the Public Interest, an independent, nonprofit group, said in a study released on Wednesday. "But the staggering calorie and saturated fat content of most of the treats served up at chains like Baskin-Robbins, Ben and Jerry's, Cold Stone Creamery, Friendly's, Haagen-Dazs and TCBY is bound to surprise most consumers." The CSPI said an empty Ben & Jerry's chocolate-dipped waffle cone, designed to hold at least two scoops of ice cream, itself packs 320 calories and 10 grams or half a day's worth of saturated fat. "If you put a regular scoop of Chunky Monkey ice cream in that cone, it is going to be worse for you than (a) one-pound rack of baby back ribs, with 820 calories and 30 grams of saturated fat," CSPI nutritionist Jayne Hurley told a news conference to publicize the study. "This is something eaten by people strolling around a mall," she added. "They have no idea they have just eaten 820 calories and one and a half days worth of saturated fat." Haagen-Dazs's Mint Chip Dazzler, a sundae in a cup, has three scoops of ice cream, fudge, cookies, sprinkles and cream -- and 1,270 calories, the group said. Its 38 grams of fat is more than the day's allowance as calculated by the U.S. government, which says the average American should eat between 2,000 and 2,500 calories a day. The CSPI called on restaurants and ice cream parlors to list the fat and calorie content of food on menus. The CSPI's Michael Jacobson said the report supported his group's argument that restaurants carry at least some responsibility for the obesity epidemic in the United States. More than two-thirds of Americans are overweight and 30 percent are obese, both of which raise the risk of heart disease, cancer, diabetes and other big killers. "It is clear that companies are using every means that they can devise to get us to eat more and bigger products and therefore to spend more in their shops," Jacobsen said. "The least they can do, the least they must do, is provide customers with factual information." Ben & Jerry's spokeswoman Chrystie Heimert said calorie and nutritional information is available online or in notebooks kept in stores, but it is hard to calculate how much each customer gets from a cone with various toppings. "It would be tough to provide that information since it's a kind of scooper's choice," she said in a telephone interview. Asked if she knew that a chocolate-dip waffle cone contained 320 calories, she responded: "Well yes, but I may not be the right person to ask because I work for an ice cream company." Jacobson said even food that is labeled contains hidden fat. "Cold Stone Creamery offers fat-free frozen yogurt, or so they would have you believe," Jacobson said. CSPI tests showed a small, 7 ounce serving contained 11 grams of fat and 7 grams of artery-clogging saturated fat. "Ice cream is an indulgent dessert, and like any indulgence, is meant be enjoyed in moderation," Cold Stone Creamery spokesman Kevin Donnellan responded in a statement. Baskin-Robbins is owned by British food and drink group Allied Domecq Plc, Anglo-Dutch group Unilever owns Ben & Jerry's and Haagen-Dazs is marketed by Swiss food giant Nestle . In the past CSPI has put out reports publicizing the health-threatening qualities of other popular foods, including Chinese take-out meals, burgers and popcorn. ------=_NextPart_000_00C1_01C351DB.B70EE440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Those=20 who think that they can take better care of everyone else's bodies than = their=20 own are at it again -- this time with ice cream!
 
Can=20 someone please tell me why we cannot longer enjoy to eat, drink, = and be=20 merry without someone trying to sue away our rights to do so?=20
 
Best,
Dale=20 Courtney
Moscow, Idaho
Ice Cream 'Isn't = Health=20 Food'-Study
http://news.yahoo.co= m/news?tmpl=3Dstory2&cid=3D573&u=3D/nm/20030724/od_nm/health_icec= ream_dc&printer=3D1

By Maggie Fox, Health and Science = Correspondent=20

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The healthy food watchdog = that took=20 all the fun out of Chinese take-out and movie popcorn has done it again, = this=20 time with summer's favored treat -- ice cream.

 

"Everyone knows that ice cream isn't a health = food," the=20 Center for Science in the Public Interest, an independent, nonprofit = group, said=20 in a study released on Wednesday.

"But the staggering calorie and saturated fat = content of=20 most of the treats served up at chains like Baskin-Robbins, Ben and = Jerry's,=20 Cold Stone Creamery, Friendly's, Haagen-Dazs and TCBY is bound to = surprise most=20 consumers."

The CSPI said an empty Ben & Jerry's = chocolate-dipped=20 waffle cone, designed to hold at least two scoops of ice cream, itself = packs 320=20 calories and 10 grams or half a day's worth of saturated fat.

"If you put a regular scoop of Chunky Monkey ice = cream in=20 that cone, it is going to be worse for you than (a) one-pound rack of = baby back=20 ribs, with 820 calories and 30 grams of saturated fat," CSPI = nutritionist Jayne=20 Hurley told a news conference to publicize the study.

"This is something eaten by people strolling = around a mall,"=20 she added. "They have no idea they have just eaten 820 calories and one = and a=20 half days worth of saturated fat."

Haagen-Dazs's Mint Chip Dazzler, a sundae in a = cup, has=20 three scoops of ice cream, fudge, cookies, sprinkles and cream -- and = 1,270=20 calories, the group said.

Its 38 grams of fat is more than the day's = allowance as=20 calculated by the U.S. government, which says the average American = should eat=20 between 2,000 and 2,500 calories a day.

The CSPI called on restaurants and ice cream = parlors to list=20 the fat and calorie content of food on menus.

The CSPI's Michael Jacobson said the report = supported his=20 group's argument that restaurants carry at least = some=20 responsibility for the obesity epidemic in the United States. =

More than two-thirds of Americans are overweight = and 30=20 percent are obese, both of which raise the risk of heart disease, = cancer,=20 diabetes and other big killers.

"It is clear that companies are using every means = that they=20 can devise to get us to eat more and bigger products and therefore to = spend more=20 in their shops," Jacobsen said. "The least they can do, the least they = must do,=20 is provide customers with factual information."

Ben & Jerry's spokeswoman Chrystie Heimert = said calorie=20 and nutritional information is available online or in notebooks kept in = stores,=20 but it is hard to calculate how much each customer gets from a cone with = various=20 toppings.

"It would be tough to provide that information = since it's a=20 kind of scooper's choice," she said in a telephone interview. Asked if = she knew=20 that a chocolate-dip waffle cone contained 320 calories, she responded: = "Well=20 yes, but I may not be the right person to ask because I work for an ice = cream=20 company."

Jacobson said even food that is labeled contains = hidden fat.=20 "Cold Stone Creamery offers fat-free frozen yogurt, or so they would = have you=20 believe," Jacobson said. CSPI tests showed a small, 7 ounce serving = contained 11=20 grams of fat and 7 grams of artery-clogging saturated fat.

"Ice cream is an indulgent dessert, and like any = indulgence,=20 is meant be enjoyed in moderation," Cold Stone Creamery spokesman Kevin=20 Donnellan responded in a statement.

Baskin-Robbins is owned by British food and drink = group=20 Allied Domecq Plc, Anglo-Dutch group Unilever owns Ben & Jerry's and = Haagen-Dazs is marketed by Swiss food giant Nestle .

In the past CSPI has put out reports publicizing = the=20 health-threatening qualities of other popular foods, including Chinese = take-out=20 meals, burgers and popcorn.

------=_NextPart_000_00C1_01C351DB.B70EE440-- From timlohr@yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 20:10:46 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Bush's Africa trip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030724191046.82057.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Carl, My question would be, why on earth would the Senegalese government agree to such unbelieveable conditions for his visit? They didn't have to agree to any visit. I'm sure if they had objected to any one of the conditions you mention the whole thing would have been off. I wonder what those in charge feel like they're going to get out of this? I'm sure they were promised something. TL --- Carl Westberg wrote: > My boss's daughter just returned from 2 years in the > Gambia where she was in > the Peace Corps. She received an e-mail from a > Gambian friend detailing > President Bush's visit to Senegal. He arrived in > Senegal at 7:20 AM, and > left at 1:30 PM. In the lead-up to his arrival, > more than 1,500 people were > arrested and jailed between the preceding Thursday > and Monday. The U.S. > Army planes flew day and night over Dakar, depriving > residents of sleep. > About 700 security people from the U.S. were there > for Bush's security. > Senegalese security forcesa were not allowed near > the President. All trees > in places where Bush would pass were cut down, some > of these trees were over > 100 years old. All roads going downtown, where > hospitals, businesses, and > schools are located were closed from Monday night to > Tuesday afternoon at 3 > PM. Residents could not go to their offices or > schools. Sick people had to > stay home. National exams that were scheduled to > start on Monday were > postponed until Wednesday. There is an island > called Goree Island that > faces Dakar. From the 15th to the 19th century, > African slaves were shipped > to America from this island. One of the island > houses is now a museum > designed to remind humanity of this period. It's > been visited by many > dignitaries (including Bill Clinton). But for > "security reasons" the local > population was chased out of their own homes from 5 > to 12 AM. American > security forces forced them to leave their houses > open, including their > wardrobes to be searched by dogs brought by U.S. > security. The ferry that > links the island to Dakar was stopped and offices > and businesses were closed > for the day. Senegal, a very poor country lost huge > amounts of money during > this visit, because workers were prevented from > leaving their homes. King > George brought his own armchairs, meals and drinks. > Senegalese journalists > were forbidden from the airport and where he was > visiting. The Senegalese > president was not allowed to speak, only Bush. The > feeling among this > poster's fellow Senegalese: "We have the feeling > that everything has been > done to convince us that we are nothing, and that > America can behave the way > it wants, everywhere, even in our country." > > > > > > > > > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 > months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 20:40:25 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:40:25 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Church and State Message-ID: Benjamin and All: The larger issue of the separation of Church and State I will leave alone, but you are incorrect that Bibles are banned from public schools. Here again we have a stereotyped factually incorrect view of our public schools regarding religion. Anyone can lawfully bring a Bible into a public school, they can read the Bible if they wish, pray if they wish when appropriate, or discuss the Bible with others, but no school sponsored Bible classes (or Koran or Book or Mormon or Christian Science classes etc.) or prayer sessions, or discussions or clubs are allowed. Religion can also be discussed in the context of an academic subject, indeed there would be no way to accurately teach some subjects without including religion as a fact of history or sociology or politics, for example. I think religion should be taught much more in depth in the public schools than it is now, with classes focusing on detailed study of all the world's major religions and including the religions of every student in the public school, without school sponsored advocacy, of course, for any particular religion. Link below to info on religion in public school: http://www.naplesnews.com/03/06/perspective/d934868a.htm Ted >From: "Benjamin Nieuwsma" >To: "Vision2020" >Subject: [Vision2020] Church and State >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:03:13 -0700 > >Greetings; > >On a slightly different (and hopefully nicer) topic, I am wondering if >anyone could explain to me how our current understanding of separation of >church and state is supported by the constitution, because it really >doesn't seem to be. In exemplum, I don't think that the argument against >having Bibles in public schools because that breaches the first ammendment >holds any water whatsoever. Perhaps I'm mistaken. If so, please explain... > >Thanks and have a great evening! > >Benjamin _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 24 20:51:33 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:51:33 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Church and State In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree with you 100%, Mr. Moffett. If public school courses in the major religions, maybe the American people could develop a deeper understanding of these religions (i.e. Muslim). To me, this may have prevented an entire religion being labeled "terrorists" in post-9/11 America. Believing that the glass is still half full, Tom Hansen MOscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Ted Moffett > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:40 PM > To: Brnieuwsma@softhome.net > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State > > > > Benjamin and All: > > The larger issue of the separation of Church and State I will > leave alone, > but you are incorrect that Bibles are banned from public schools. Here > again we have a stereotyped factually incorrect view of our > public schools > regarding religion. Anyone can lawfully bring a Bible into a > public school, > they can read the Bible if they wish, pray if they wish when > appropriate, or > discuss the Bible with others, but no school sponsored Bible classes (or > Koran or Book or Mormon or Christian Science classes etc.) or prayer > sessions, or discussions or clubs are allowed. > > Religion can also be discussed in the context of an academic > subject, indeed > there would be no way to accurately teach some subjects without including > religion as a fact of history or sociology or politics, for example. > > I think religion should be taught much more in depth in the > public schools > than it is now, with classes focusing on detailed study of all > the world's > major religions and including the religions of every student in > the public > school, without school sponsored advocacy, of course, for any particular > religion. > > Link below to info on religion in public school: > > http://www.naplesnews.com/03/06/perspective/d934868a.htm > > Ted > > > >From: "Benjamin Nieuwsma" > >To: "Vision2020" > >Subject: [Vision2020] Church and State > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:03:13 -0700 > > > >Greetings; > > > >On a slightly different (and hopefully nicer) topic, I am wondering if > >anyone could explain to me how our current understanding of > separation of > >church and state is supported by the constitution, because it really > >doesn't seem to be. In exemplum, I don't think that the argument against > >having Bibles in public schools because that breaches the first > ammendment > >holds any water whatsoever. Perhaps I'm mistaken. If so, please > explain... > > > >Thanks and have a great evening! > > > >Benjamin > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 21:14:30 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:14:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Bush's Africa trip Message-ID: Tim, I can't answer the how or why, I just passed along the contents of the e-mail. Perhaps a case of a small, impoverished, weak African nation being overwhelmed by American power and hubris? Go Mariners.....Carl Westberg Jr. >From: Tim Lohrmann >To: Carl Westberg >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bush's Africa trip >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:10:46 -0700 (PDT) > >Carl, > My question would be, why on earth would the >Senegalese government agree to such unbelieveable >conditions for his visit? > They didn't have to agree to any visit. I'm sure if >they had objected to any one of the conditions you >mention the whole thing would have been off. I wonder >what those in charge feel like they're going to get >out of this? I'm sure they were promised something. > TL > > > >--- Carl Westberg wrote: > > My boss's daughter just returned from 2 years in the > > Gambia where she was in > > the Peace Corps. She received an e-mail from a > > Gambian friend detailing > > President Bush's visit to Senegal. He arrived in > > Senegal at 7:20 AM, and > > left at 1:30 PM. In the lead-up to his arrival, > > more than 1,500 people were > > arrested and jailed between the preceding Thursday > > and Monday. The U.S. > > Army planes flew day and night over Dakar, depriving > > residents of sleep. > > About 700 security people from the U.S. were there > > for Bush's security. > > Senegalese security forcesa were not allowed near > > the President. All trees > > in places where Bush would pass were cut down, some > > of these trees were over > > 100 years old. All roads going downtown, where > > hospitals, businesses, and > > schools are located were closed from Monday night to > > Tuesday afternoon at 3 > > PM. Residents could not go to their offices or > > schools. Sick people had to > > stay home. National exams that were scheduled to > > start on Monday were > > postponed until Wednesday. There is an island > > called Goree Island that > > faces Dakar. From the 15th to the 19th century, > > African slaves were shipped > > to America from this island. One of the island > > houses is now a museum > > designed to remind humanity of this period. It's > > been visited by many > > dignitaries (including Bill Clinton). But for > > "security reasons" the local > > population was chased out of their own homes from 5 > > to 12 AM. American > > security forces forced them to leave their houses > > open, including their > > wardrobes to be searched by dogs brought by U.S. > > security. The ferry that > > links the island to Dakar was stopped and offices > > and businesses were closed > > for the day. Senegal, a very poor country lost huge > > amounts of money during > > this visit, because workers were prevented from > > leaving their homes. King > > George brought his own armchairs, meals and drinks. > > Senegalese journalists > > were forbidden from the airport and where he was > > visiting. The Senegalese > > president was not allowed to speak, only Bush. The > > feeling among this > > poster's fellow Senegalese: "We have the feeling > > that everything has been > > done to convince us that we are nothing, and that > > America can behave the way > > it wants, everywhere, even in our country." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 > > months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step > > Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jul 24 21:34:37 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:34:37 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Bush's Africa trip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200307242037.h6OKbWQU041137@whale2.fsr.net> Carl wrote: > Tim, I can't answer the how or why, I just passed along the > contents of the e-mail. Perhaps a case of a small, > impoverished, weak African nation being > overwhelmed by American power and hubris? Actually, it is just this very kind of thing that the smaller countries *need* to do. Can you imagine the uproar if they said "no, we're not going to trash our forests for a Presidential visit!" However, they are probably *more* intimidated about a potential _reduction_ in foreign aid more than anything else. So from their perspective, clear-cutting the land is a small price to pay for what they will get back in $$$$ Just a thought. Best, Dale From joshuahendrik@yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 21:47:12 2003 From: joshuahendrik@yahoo.com (Joshua Nieuwsma) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Church and State In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030724204712.9948.qmail@web41002.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1668188358-1059079632=:8670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism, islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of the public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public education were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it, kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the highway than in the government school classroom. And as to a "bible ban", I do know that students and their families, and corresponding schools, have been sued for prayer during lunch, for prayer before a football game, for prayer in the locker rooms, for prayer just about anywhere but in their car on the school parking lot, and that just might be next. It seems to me that the definition of "appropriate" -as in "pray if they wish when appropriate" is rather up in the air, and much more restrictive than might be understood from Mr. Moffett's view. Allow me also to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an integral part of some classes and point out that it is impossible for any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with direct foundation in God's Holy Word. Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that have successfully implimented such a plan anywhere in the world, without strive and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over another? cheers, Joshua N. Ted Moffett wrote: Benjamin and All: The larger issue of the separation of Church and State I will leave alone, but you are incorrect that Bibles are banned from public schools. Here again we have a stereotyped factually incorrect view of our public schools regarding religion. Anyone can lawfully bring a Bible into a public school, they can read the Bible if they wish, pray if they wish when appropriate, or discuss the Bible with others, but no school sponsored Bible classes (or Koran or Book or Mormon or Christian Science classes etc.) or prayer sessions, or discussions or clubs are allowed. Religion can also be discussed in the context of an academic subject, indeed there would be no way to accurately teach some subjects without including religion as a fact of history or sociology or politics, for example. I think religion should be taught much more in depth in the public schools than it is now, with classes focusing on detailed study of all the world's major religions and including the religions of every student in the public school, without school sponsored advocacy, of course, for any particular religion. Link below to info on religion in public school: http://www.naplesnews.com/03/06/perspective/d934868a.htm Ted >From: "Benjamin Nieuwsma" >To: "Vision2020" >Subject: [Vision2020] Church and State >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:03:13 -0700 > >Greetings; > >On a slightly different (and hopefully nicer) topic, I am wondering if >anyone could explain to me how our current understanding of separation of >church and state is supported by the constitution, because it really >doesn't seem to be. In exemplum, I don't think that the argument against >having Bibles in public schools because that breaches the first ammendment >holds any water whatsoever. Perhaps I'm mistaken. If so, please explain... > >Thanks and have a great evening! > >Benjamin _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-1668188358-1059079632=:8670 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism, islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of the public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public education were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it, kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the highway than in the government school classroom. 
And as to a "bible ban", I do know that students and their families, and corresponding schools, have been sued for prayer during lunch, for prayer before a football game, for prayer in the locker rooms, for prayer just about anywhere but in their car on the school parking lot, and that just might be next. It seems to me that the definition of "appropriate" -as in "pray if they wish when appropriate" is rather up in the air, and much more restrictive than might be understood from Mr. Moffett's view.
 
Allow me also to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an integral part of some classes and point out that it is impossible for any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with direct foundation in God's Holy Word.
 
Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that have successfully implimented such a plan anywhere in the world, without strive and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over another?
 
cheers,
 
Joshua N.


Ted Moffett <ted_moffett@hotmail.com> wrote:

Benjamin and All:

The larger issue of the separation of Church and State I will leave alone,
but you are incorrect that Bibles are banned from public schools. Here
again we have a stereotyped factually incorrect view of our public schools
regarding religion. Anyone can lawfully bring a Bible into a public school,
they can read the Bible if they wish, pray if they wish when appropriate, or
discuss the Bible with others, but no school sponsored Bible classes (or
Koran or Book or Mormon or Christian Science classes etc.) or prayer
sessions, or discussions or clubs are allowed.

Religion can also be discussed in the context of an academic subject, indeed
there would be no way to accurately teach some subjects without including
religion as a fact of history or sociology or politics, for example.

I think religion should be! taught much more in depth in the public schools
than it is now, with classes focusing on detailed study of all the world's
major religions and including the religions of every student in the public
school, without school sponsored advocacy, of course, for any particular
religion.

Link below to info on religion in public school:

http://www.naplesnews.com/03/06/perspective/d934868a.htm

Ted


>From: "Benjamin Nieuwsma"
>To: "Vision2020"
>Subject: [Vision2020] Church and State
>Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:03:13 -0700
>
>Greetings;
>
>On a slightly different (and hopefully nicer) topic, I am wondering if
>anyone could explain to me how our current understanding of separation of
>church and state is supported by the constitution, because it really
>doesn't seem to be. In exemplum, I don't think that the argument against
>h! aving Bibles in public schools because that breaches the first ammendment
>holds any water whatsoever. Perhaps I'm mistaken. If so, please explain...
>
>Thanks and have a great evening!
>
>Benjamin

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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-1668188358-1059079632=:8670-- From nielsen@uidaho.edu Thu Jul 24 22:12:58 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:12:58 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bush's Africa trip In-Reply-To: <20030724182501.179.15992.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <99E1194E-BE1B-11D7-A182-00039385F674@uidaho.edu> --Apple-Mail-4--830400005 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > From: "Carl Westberg" > Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:49:15 AM US/Pacific > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: [Vision2020] Bush's Africa trip > > > My boss's daughter just returned from 2 years in the Gambia where she=20= > was in the Peace Corps. She received an e-mail from a Gambian friend=20= > detailing President Bush's visit to Senegal. He arrived in Senegal at=20= > 7:20 AM, and left at 1:30 PM. In the lead-up to his arrival, more=20 > than 1,500 people were arrested and jailed between the preceding=20 > Thursday and Monday. The U.S. Army planes flew day and night over=20 > Dakar, depriving residents of sleep. About 700 security people from=20= > the U.S. were there for Bush's security. Senegalese security forcesa=20= > were not allowed near the President. All trees in places where Bush=20 > would pass were cut down, some of these trees were over 100 years old.=20= > All roads going downtown, where hospitals, businesses, and schools=20 > are located were closed from Monday night to Tuesday afternoon at 3=20 > PM. Residents could not go to their offices or schools. Sick people=20= > had to stay home. National exams that were scheduled to start on=20 > Monday were postponed until Wednesday. There is an island called=20 > Goree Island that faces Dakar. =46rom the 15th to the 19th century,=20= > African slaves were shipped to America from this island. One of the=20= > island houses is now a museum designed to remind humanity of this=20 > period. It's been visited by many dignitaries (including Bill=20 > Clinton). But for "security reasons" the local population was chased=20= > out of their own homes from 5 to 12 AM. American security forces=20 > forced them to leave their houses open, including their wardrobes to=20= > be searched by dogs brought by U.S. security. The ferry that links=20 > the island to Dakar was stopped and offices and businesses were closed=20= > for the day. Senegal, a very poor country lost huge amounts of money=20= > during this visit, because workers were prevented from leaving their=20= > homes. King George brought his own armchairs, meals and drinks. =20 > Senegalese journalists were forbidden from the airport and where he=20 > was visiting. The Senegalese president was not allowed to speak, only=20= > Bush. The feeling among this poster's fellow Senegalese: "We have the=20= > feeling that everything has been done to convince us that we are=20 > nothing, and that America can behave the way it wants, everywhere,=20 > even in our country." =20= > =20= > =20= > =20= > =20= > =20= > Carl Westberg Jr. I think the answer is here. Ralph Nielsen US to Lock Africa in a Military Embrace=A0 JULIAN BORGER /=A0 The Guardian Weekly (UK) 10jul03 Control over future sources of oil is preoccupying Washington as well=20 as the rival giants of East Asia President Bush's African tour this week is being sold as the gentler,=20 softer, altogether more huggable side of global superpower politics. If=20= you thought we just do wars, it is time to take another look at=20 America, the advance publicity suggests. We do Aids and poverty and=20 fair trade too. If this rings a bell, you may be thinking of=20 "compassionate conservatism". Remember that? Bush was the presidential=20= candidate who spoke Spanish and really cared about public education. As=20= promised, the No Child Left Behind act was passed with great fanfare,=20 but then a strange thing happened. The school rescue programme was=20 quietly drained of funds, which were spent on tax cuts and Pentagon=20 budgets instead, until the whole scheme was hollowed out. Africa and its supporters should keep a close eye on what now happens=20 to Bush's five-year, $15bn plan to combat Aids, and the three-year,=20 $10bn Millennium Challenge to transform the world's poorest countries.=20= Both schemes are up for the chop in Congress. Republicans may well be=20 paring both programmes even as the US president extols them on his=20 African tour. In America they call this tactic "bait and switch". More US Bases Although the mood music on the African trip will be sentimental and=20 uplifting, there are hard-headed calculations behind it. The=20 presidential visit signals a strategic decision by the administration=20 to upgrade the US military presence in Africa to bolster what=20 Washington now sees as important national interests on the continent -=20= the supply of oil and the struggle against terrorism. The global war on al-Qaida and the administration's goal of weaning the=20= US off Middle East oil have put Africa on the map. It is principally=20 for this reason that Bush is contemplating sending troops to Liberia,=20 the sort of humanitarian intervention he criticised in his election=20 campaign. An essential element of the new Africa policy is to enhance=20 military cooperation with the region, particularly the Ecowas West=20 African bloc. On the eve of the president's departure, General James Jones, the=20 commander of the US European command with responsibility for African=20 operations, said the US was trying to negotiate the long-term use of a=20= "family" of military bases across the continent. These would include=20 major installations for up to 5,000-strong brigades, "that could be=20 robustly used for a significant military presence", he told the New=20 York Times. It would also involve smaller, lightly equipped bases=20 available in crises to special forces or marines. The bases would not only be established in North African states such as=20= Algeria, where Islamic extremism is already a potent force, but also in=20= sub-Saharan African nations such as Mali. Gen Jones has also predicted=20= a much bigger role for the navy and marines in the oil-rich Gulf of=20 Guinea. "The carrier battle groups of the future may not spend six months in=20 the Mediterranean sea, but I'll bet they'll spend half the time going=20 down the west coast of Africa," he told journalists. The new bases are=20= described as temporary, but once built they are likely to become part=20 of the African landscape. Camp Lemonier in Djibouti, home to about=20 1,500 marines and special forces troops, is one of the country's=20 biggest employers - and it is still growing. The Djibouti base is in striking distance of Sudan, Somalia and Yemen -=20= all seen as possible havens for al-Qaida. But bases in West Africa and=20= an enhanced naval presence in the Gulf of Guinea would be primarily=20 designed to safeguard an increasingly important source of oil. The US=20 is importing 1.5m barrels a day from West Africa, about the same as it=20= imports from Saudi Arabia. Conversely, the US has so far invested a=20 cumulative total of $10bn in West African oil fields. According to the=20= US energy department, those figures are set to grow, with annual=20 African oil imports soon reaching 770m barrels, and US investment in=20 the oil fields set to exceed $10bn per year. At a meeting organised last month by the Corporate Council on Africa, a=20= senior CIA official, David Gordon, predicted that over the next decade=20= African oil would be potentially more important to the US than oil from=20= Russia or the Caucasus. But, according to other participants at the meeting, he warned that=20 over the following decade the oil industry there ran the risk of=20 imploding as a result of the region's inherent instability, unless the=20= US did more to prop it up. In a report to Congress last year, an advisory panel that included oil=20= executives and Pentagon officials recommended greater military=20 cooperation with oil states. The panel, known as the African Oil Policy=20= Initiative Group, said it considered "the Gulf of Guinea oil basin of=20 West Africa, with greater western and southern Africa and its attendant=20= market of 250 million people located astride key sea lanes of=20 communication, as a 'vital interest' in US national security=20 calculations". The report advised setting up a "unified command" for Africa that would=20= play a similar oversight role to Central Command in the Middle East. To=20= safeguard oil shipments, the report said, "the US should give serious=20 consideration to increased force presence and the establishment of a=20 regional homeport, possibly on the islands of the Republic of Sao Tome=20= and Principe centered in the Gulf." In fact, the second-ranking general from European Command, General=20 Carlton Fulford, visited the islands last year, after which the Sao=20 Tome government declared it had an agreement to build a port. The claim=20= was denied by the state department, but it said the US would be=20 offering naval and coast guard assistance. Wherever the new bases are built, there is no doubt they are coming.=20 The news will be welcomed for now by many long-suffering Liberians, but=20= if the people of the Gulf of Guinea are wondering whether the troops=20 are coming principally to protect oil or lives, they should look beyond=20= this week's speeches and ponder the history of the other Gulf. If you have come to this page from an outside location click here to=20 get back to mindfully.org Please see the Fair Use Notice on the Homepage --Apple-Mail-4--830400005 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 From: "Carl Westberg" < Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:49:15 AM US/Pacific To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Bush's Africa trip My boss's daughter just returned from 2 years in the Gambia where she was in the Peace Corps. She received an e-mail from a Gambian friend detailing President Bush's visit to Senegal. He arrived in Senegal at 7:20 AM, and left at 1:30 PM. In the lead-up to his arrival, more than 1,500 people were arrested and jailed between the preceding Thursday and Monday. The U.S. Army planes flew day and night over Dakar, depriving residents of sleep. About 700 security people from the U.S. were there for Bush's security. Senegalese security forcesa were not allowed near the President. All trees in places where Bush would pass were cut down, some of these trees were over 100 years old.=20= All roads going downtown, where hospitals, businesses, and schools are located were closed from Monday night to Tuesday afternoon at 3 PM.=20 Residents could not go to their offices or schools. Sick people had to stay home. National exams that were scheduled to start on Monday were postponed until Wednesday. There is an island called Goree Island that faces Dakar. =46rom the 15th to the 19th century, African slaves were shipped to America from this island. One of the island houses is now a museum designed to remind humanity of this period.=20 It's been visited by many dignitaries (including Bill Clinton). But for "security reasons" the local population was chased out of their own homes from 5 to 12 AM. American security forces forced them to leave their houses open, including their wardrobes to be searched by dogs brought by U.S. security. The ferry that links the island to Dakar was stopped and offices and businesses were closed for the day.=20 Senegal, a very poor country lost huge amounts of money during this visit, because workers were prevented from leaving their homes. King George brought his own armchairs, meals and drinks. Senegalese journalists were forbidden from the airport and where he was visiting.=20= The Senegalese president was not allowed to speak, only Bush. The feeling among this poster's fellow Senegalese: "We have the feeling that everything has been done to convince us that we are nothing, and that America can behave the way it wants, everywhere, even in our country." = = = = = =20 Carl Westberg Jr. I think the answer is here. Ralph Nielsen Times New Roman US to Lock Africa in a Military Embrace=A0 JULIAN BORGER /=A0 The Guardian Weekly (UK) 10jul03 Control over future sources of oil is preoccupying Washington as well as the rival giants of East Asia President Bush's African tour this week is being sold as the gentler, softer, altogether more huggable side of global superpower politics. If you thought we just do wars, it is time to take another look at America, the advance publicity suggests. We do Aids and poverty and fair trade too. If this rings a bell, you may be thinking of "compassionate conservatism". Remember that? Bush was the presidential candidate who spoke Spanish and really cared about public education. As promised, the No Child Left Behind act was passed with great fanfare, but then a strange thing happened. The school rescue programme was quietly drained of funds, which were spent on tax cuts and Pentagon budgets instead, until the whole scheme was hollowed out. Africa and its supporters should keep a close eye on what now happens to Bush's five-year, $15bn plan to combat Aids, and the three-year, $10bn Millennium Challenge to transform the world's poorest countries. Both schemes are up for the chop in Congress. Republicans may well be paring both programmes even as the US president extols them on his African tour. In America they call this tactic "bait and switch". Arial BlackMore US BasesTimes New = Roman Although the mood music on the African trip will be sentimental and uplifting, there are hard-headed calculations behind it. The presidential visit signals a strategic decision by the administration to upgrade the US military presence in Africa to bolster what Washington now sees as important national interests on the continent - the supply of oil and the struggle against terrorism. The global war on al-Qaida and the administration's goal of weaning the US off Middle East oil have put Africa on the map. It is principally for this reason that Bush is contemplating sending troops to Liberia, the sort of humanitarian intervention he criticised in his election campaign. An essential element of the new Africa policy is to enhance military cooperation with the region, particularly the Ecowas West African bloc. On the eve of the president's departure, General James Jones, the commander of the US European command with responsibility for African operations, said the US was trying to negotiate the long-term use of a "family" of military bases across the continent. These would include major installations for up to 5,000-strong brigades, "that could be robustly used for a significant military presence", he told the New York Times. It would also involve smaller, lightly equipped bases available in crises to special forces or marines. The bases would not only be established in North African states such as Algeria, where Islamic extremism is already a potent force, but also in sub-Saharan African nations such as Mali. Gen Jones has also predicted a much bigger role for the navy and marines in the oil-rich Gulf of Guinea. "The carrier battle groups of the future may not spend six months in the Mediterranean sea, but I'll bet they'll spend half the time going down the west coast of Africa," he told journalists. The new bases are described as temporary, but once built they are likely to become part of the African landscape. Camp Lemonier in Djibouti, home to about 1,500 marines and special forces troops, is one of the country's biggest employers - and it is still growing. The Djibouti base is in striking distance of Sudan, Somalia and Yemen - all seen as possible havens for al-Qaida. But bases in West Africa and an enhanced naval presence in the Gulf of Guinea would be primarily designed to safeguard an increasingly important source of oil. The US is importing 1.5m barrels a day from West Africa, about the same as it imports from Saudi Arabia. Conversely, the US has so far invested a cumulative total of $10bn in West African oil fields. According to the US energy department, those figures are set to grow, with annual African oil imports soon reaching 770m barrels, and US investment in the oil fields set to exceed $10bn per year. At a meeting organised last month by the Corporate Council on Africa, a senior CIA official, David Gordon, predicted that over the next decade African oil would be potentially more important to the US than oil from Russia or the Caucasus. But, according to other participants at the meeting, he warned that over the following decade the oil industry there ran the risk of imploding as a result of the region's inherent instability, unless the US did more to prop it up. In a report to Congress last year, an advisory panel that included oil executives and Pentagon officials recommended greater military cooperation with oil states. The panel, known as the African Oil Policy Initiative Group, said it considered "the Gulf of Guinea oil basin of West Africa, with greater western and southern Africa and its attendant market of 250 million people located astride key sea lanes of communication, as a 'vital interest' in US national security calculations". The report advised setting up a "unified command" for Africa that would play a similar oversight role to Central Command in the Middle East. To safeguard oil shipments, the report said, "the US should give serious consideration to increased force presence and the establishment of a regional homeport, possibly on the islands of the Republic of Sao Tome and Principe centered in the Gulf." In fact, the second-ranking general from European Command, General Carlton Fulford, visited the islands last year, after which the Sao Tome government declared it had an agreement to build a port. The claim was denied by the state department, but it said the US would be offering naval and coast guard assistance. Wherever the new bases are built, there is no doubt they are coming. The news will be welcomed for now by many long-suffering Liberians, but if the people of the Gulf of Guinea are wondering whether the troops are coming principally to protect oil or lives, they should look beyond this week's speeches and ponder the history of the other Gulf. Century SchoolbookIf you have come to this page from an outside location 0000,0000,FFFFclick here to get back to mindfully.org Please see the Fair Use Notice on the HomepageTimes New Roman --Apple-Mail-4--830400005-- From tomh@uidaho.edu Thu Jul 24 22:31:15 2003 From: tomh@uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:31:15 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bush's Africa trip Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FF9@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Now, here is another fine, non-biased website: http://www.mindfully.org This website has links to such troop-supporting organizations as the Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors sensibly located at www.objectors.com. You will probably find this organization listed just to the left of Green Peace. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From nielsen@uidaho.edu Thu Jul 24 23:18:33 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:18:33 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state In-Reply-To: <20030724211600.13284.44722.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: --Apple-Mail-6--826464777 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > From: Joshua Nieuwsma > Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific > To: vision > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State > > > I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism,=20= > islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of=20= > God equal with the words of confused man?=A0Take the Bible out of the=20= > public schools completely!=A0It's about time the goals of public=20 > education=A0were consistent with their practices. And while we're at = it,=20 > kick the Christian children=A0out, too. Their parents should have=20 > have=A0pulled them out a=A0long time=A0ago. It's safer outside on the=20= > highway than in the government school classroom.=A0 > =A0 > Allow me also to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an=20 > integral part of some classes and point out=A0that it is impossible = for=20 > any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one=20 > anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with=20= > direct foundation in God's Holy Word. > =A0 > Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught=20= > about seems=A0merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that=20= > have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world,=20 > without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over=20= > another? > =A0 > cheers, > =A0 > Joshua N. > Dear Joshua: First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, = etc.=20 are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like them=20 or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion here.=20= It is a proper noun, not a generic term. Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, = none of=20 them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around for=20 centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your=20 brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what=20 constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. The=20 reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by human=20 beings, usually men. I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple = of=20 dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I=20= also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you=20 realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that=20= none of them is worth a single drop of blood. Go in peace. Ralph Nielsen= --Apple-Mail-6--826464777 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 From: Joshua Nieuwsma < Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific To: vision < Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism, islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of God equal with the words of confused man?=A0Take the Bible out of the public schools completely!=A0It's about time the goals of public education=A0were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it, kick the Christian children=A0out, too. Their parents should have have=A0pulled them out a=A0long time=A0ago. It's safer = outside on the highway than in the government school classroom.=A0 <=A0 Allow me also to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an integral part of some classes and point out=A0that it is impossible for any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with direct foundation in God's Holy Word. =A0 Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught about seems=A0merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world, without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over another? =A0 cheers, =A0 Joshua N. Dear Joshua: First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, = etc. are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like them or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion here. It is a proper noun, not a generic term. Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, = none of them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around for centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. The reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by human beings, usually men. I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple = of dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that none of them is worth a single drop of blood.=20 Go in peace. Ralph Nielsen= --Apple-Mail-6--826464777-- From tomh@uidaho.edu Thu Jul 24 23:34:30 2003 From: tomh@uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:34:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FFA@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35233.BF74ABD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" No need to look, Mr. Moffett. It took me all of 34.16 seconds to find: http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/religion/index.html It seems that UCLA has a department dedicated to this. Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: Ralph Nielsen [mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu] Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 3:19 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state From: Joshua Nieuwsma Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific To: vision Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism, islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of the public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public education were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it, kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the highway than in the government school classroom. Allow me also to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an integral part of some classes and point out that it is impossible for any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with direct foundation in God's Holy Word. Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world, without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over another? cheers, Joshua N. Dear Joshua: First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like them or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion here. It is a proper noun, not a generic term. Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, none of them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around for centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. The reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by human beings, usually men. I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that none of them is worth a single drop of blood. Go in peace. Ralph Nielsen ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35233.BF74ABD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
No need to look, Mr. Moffett.  It took me all of 34.16 seconds to find:
 
 
It seems that UCLA has a department dedicated to this.
 
Tom Hansen
-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Nielsen [mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 3:19 PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state

From: Joshua Nieuwsma <joshuahendrik@yahoo.com>

Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific

To: vision <vision2020@moscow.com>

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State



I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism, islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of the public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public education were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it, kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the highway than in the government school classroom. 

        <snip> 

Allow me also to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an integral part of some classes and point out that it is impossible for any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with direct foundation in God's Holy Word.

Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world, without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over another?

cheers,

Joshua N.



Dear Joshua:

        First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like them or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion here. It is a proper noun, not a generic term.

        Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, none of them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around for centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. The reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by human beings, usually men.

        I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that none of them is worth a single drop of blood.

        Go in peace.

        Ralph Nielsen

------_=_NextPart_001_01C35233.BF74ABD0-- From tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu Thu Jul 24 23:45:11 2003 From: tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (TEX) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] There go our rights again: Ice Cream 'Isn't Health Food'-Study In-Reply-To: <200307241907.h6OJ7EQU075325@whale2.fsr.net> References: <200307241907.h6OJ7EQU075325@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: Damn it!! Just when I was about to start the Baskin's diet!! Tex tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Dale Courtney wrote: > Those who think that they can take better care of everyone else's bodies > than their own are at it again -- this time with ice cream! > > Can someone please tell me why we cannot longer enjoy to eat, drink, and be > merry without someone trying to sue away our rights to do so? > > Best, > Dale Courtney > Moscow, Idaho > _____ > > Ice Cream 'Isn't Health Food'-Study > > http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2 > icecream_dc&printer=1> > &cid=573&u=/nm/20030724/od_nm/health_icecream_dc&printer=1 > > > By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent > > > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The healthy food watchdog that took all the fun out > of Chinese take-out and movie popcorn has done it again, this time with > summer's favored treat -- ice cream. > > > > > "Everyone knows that ice cream isn't a health food," the Center for Science > in the Public Interest, an independent, nonprofit group, said in a study > released on Wednesday. > > > > "But the staggering calorie and saturated fat content of most of the treats > served up at chains like Baskin-Robbins, Ben and Jerry's, Cold Stone > Creamery, Friendly's, Haagen-Dazs and TCBY is bound to surprise most > consumers." > > > > The CSPI said an empty Ben & Jerry's chocolate-dipped waffle cone, designed > to hold at least two scoops of ice cream, itself packs 320 calories and 10 > grams or half a day's worth of saturated fat. > > > > "If you put a regular scoop of Chunky Monkey ice cream in that cone, it is > going to be worse for you than (a) one-pound rack of baby back ribs, with > 820 calories and 30 grams of saturated fat," CSPI nutritionist Jayne Hurley > told a news conference to publicize the study. > > > > "This is something eaten by people strolling around a mall," she added. > "They have no idea they have just eaten 820 calories and one and a half days > worth of saturated fat." > > > > Haagen-Dazs's Mint Chip Dazzler, a sundae in a cup, has three scoops of ice > cream, fudge, cookies, sprinkles and cream -- and 1,270 calories, the group > said. > > > > Its 38 grams of fat is more than the day's allowance as calculated by the > U.S. government, which says the average American should eat between 2,000 > and 2,500 calories a day. > > > > The CSPI called on restaurants and ice cream parlors to list the fat and > calorie content of food on menus. > > > > The CSPI's Michael Jacobson said the report supported his group's argument > that restaurants carry at least some responsibility for the obesity epidemic > in the United States. > > > > More than two-thirds of Americans are overweight and 30 percent are obese, > both of which raise the risk of heart disease, cancer, diabetes and other > big killers. > > > > "It is clear that companies are using every means that they can devise to > get us to eat more and bigger products and therefore to spend more in their > shops," Jacobsen said. "The least they can do, the least they must do, is > provide customers with factual information." > > > > Ben & Jerry's spokeswoman Chrystie Heimert said calorie and nutritional > information is available online or in notebooks kept in stores, but it is > hard to calculate how much each customer gets from a cone with various > toppings. > > > > "It would be tough to provide that information since it's a kind of > scooper's choice," she said in a telephone interview. Asked if she knew that > a chocolate-dip waffle cone contained 320 calories, she responded: "Well > yes, but I may not be the right person to ask because I work for an ice > cream company." > > > > Jacobson said even food that is labeled contains hidden fat. "Cold Stone > Creamery offers fat-free frozen yogurt, or so they would have you believe," > Jacobson said. CSPI tests showed a small, 7 ounce serving contained 11 grams > of fat and 7 grams of artery-clogging saturated fat. > > > > "Ice cream is an indulgent dessert, and like any indulgence, is meant be > enjoyed in moderation," Cold Stone Creamery spokesman Kevin Donnellan > responded in a statement. > > > > Baskin-Robbins is owned by British food and drink group Allied Domecq Plc, > Anglo-Dutch group Unilever owns Ben & Jerry's and Haagen-Dazs is marketed by > Swiss food giant Nestle . > > > > In the past CSPI has put out reports publicizing the health-threatening > qualities of other popular foods, including Chinese take-out meals, burgers > and popcorn. > > > From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 23:53:16 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:53:16 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Church and State Message-ID: Joshua et. al. I skipped the rant with the comment about kids left out on the highway being safer than the public schools. You strike me as an obscurantist of the highest order if you object to the World Religions Class the syllabus for which I have posted below. Joshua wrote: >It seems to me that the definition of "appropriate" -as in "pray if they >wish when appropriate" is rather >up in the air, and much more restrictive >than might be understood from Mr. Moffett's view. A student can be excused from class during the pledge of allegiance, if they wish, and pray in the hall, or they can pray silently during the pledge, which touches on one of the arguments used to refute the idea that the words "under God" in the pledge are school sponsored prayer. Reciting the pledge of allegiance is voluntary, in theory, and praying during school on school grounds is also voluntary. It can be done whenever it will not interfere with school functions: in breaks between class, silently during class, at lunch in the lunch room (I recall doing this myself in public schools), etc. Obviously, praying out loud during a class lecture would disrupt the class. This is one example of how the word "appropriate" can be defined in this context. Of course peer pressure and other social pressures that are present in public schools may create a climate either where a student feels compelled to pray or not to pray, or recite the pledge of allegiance though they do not want to. > >Allow me also to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an integral >part of some classes and >point out that it is impossible for any class or >"subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one >anyhow. It's not how >the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with direct foundation in God's > >Holy Word. > >Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught >about seems merely a grand >utopia. Can you think of any schools that have >successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the >world, without strive >and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over another? > Here is the class you were wondering about, though it does not teach EVERY religion: OK, you got me there, that probably would be impossible with the hundreds of religions in the world. http://icg.harvard.edu/~rel11/syllabus/ Below read the syllabus from a World Religions Class. This is what I have in mind. World Religions: Diversity and Dialogue Religion 11/Divinity 3220 Fall Term 2002: M, W, F at 10:00 Instructor: Diana L. Eck Office: The Study of Religion, Barker Center, 3rd Floor Phone: 495-5781 Email: dianaeck@fas.harvard.edu Class Website: http://www.courses.fas.harvard.edu/~rel11/ Teaching Fellows: Elijah Ary, Benjamin Dunning, Amod Lele, Alan Wagner This course is an introduction to five of the world's religious traditions -- the Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian and Muslim traditions. We will focus on the writings of twentieth century adherents of each tradition, asking the following questions: How do people in each tradition articulate the central symbols, tenets, and practices of their faith in the context of the questions and challenges of the modern world? How do people in each tradition think about their own faith in the light of the diversity of other religious traditions? Is religious diversity and difference a problem? What is the spectrum of religious perspectives within each tradition? In addition to providing an introduction to the challenges of religious diversity today, the course will investigate some of the critical problems of interpretation in the academic study of religion. SCHEDULE OF CLASS MEETINGS Note: In addition to these class meetings, there will be section meetings for discussion once a week on Thursday or Friday. I. INTRODUCTION Sept. 18 W Introduction to the Course Sept. 20 F What is "Religion?" And how does one study it ? Sept. 23 M Religious Diversity, Religious Pluralism, and Religious Truth Sept. 25 W The American Scene in 2002 Sept. 27 F Film: "Faith and Doubt At Ground Zero" by Helen Whitney First Section Discussions: Bring to your section a three page essay describing the most significant encounter you have had with someone of another faith tradition; if you are not religious, the most significant encounter you have had with someone who is. What was significant for you about this encounter? What did you learn from it? Readings: • Wilfred Cantwell Smith, Patterns of Faith Around the World, part I, pages 7-107. • Diana L. Eck, Encountering God, Chapters 1, 2, 3, 7, 8. • Diana L. Eck, "Dialogue and Method: Reconstructing the Study of Religion," in Kimberley Patton, ed. A Magic Still Dwells. (xerox to be handed out). • John Esposito, Darrell Fasching, and Todd Lewis, World Religions Today, Ch. 1, "Introduction." II. THE HINDU TRADITION Sept. 30 M What is Hinduism? Oct. 2 W Vedanta for Today: Vivekananda and Nikhilananda Oct. 4 F Gandhi and the Unity and Diversity of Religions Readings: • Nikhilananda, Hinduism: Its Meaning for the Liberation of the Spirit. • "Hinduism: Myriad Paths to Salvation," Ch. 5 in World Religions Today. Oct. 7 M Gandhi and the Challenge of Communalism and Hindu Nationalism Oct. 9 W Film: "330 million Gods," BBC, The Long Search Series Oct. 11 F Panel: Hindu Perspectives on Today's Issues Readings: • Selections from M.K. Gandhi, All Religions are True. • Selections from Swami Agnivesh and Valson Thampu, Harvest of Hate. • Web work on Hindu Nationalism III. THE BUDDHIST TRADITION Oct. 14 M No Class: Columbus Day Observed Oct. 16 W Who is the Buddha? Oct. 17 Th Film: "Becoming the Buddha in L.A." by Michael Camerini Oct. 18 F The Four Noble Truths, Then and Now Readings: • Walpola Rahula, What the Buddha Taught. • "Buddhism:Ways to Nirvana" in World Religions Today Oct. 21 M Diversity within the Buddhist Tradition Oct. 23 W Buddhist Approaches to Religious Pluralism Oct. 24 Th Buddhist Film Festival: "Peace is Every Step" and Marcel Poulin's film "Memories from a Previous Life" Oct. 25 F Panel: Buddhist Perspectives on Today's Issues Reading: • Thich Nhat Hanh, Being Peace. • Web reading on Thich Nhat Hanh and Buddhist responses to 9/11. IV. THE JEWISH TRADITION Oct. 28 M The Jewish Tradition: God and Covenant Oct. 30 W Central Symbols of Judaism: Torah Nov. 1 F Panel: Jewish Perspectives on Today's Issues Readings: • Emil Fackenheim, What is Judaism? Introduction, Parts I and II. • "The Many Faces of Judaism: Sacred and Secular," Ch. 3 in World Religions Today. Nov. 4 M Central Symbols of Judaism: Israel and Zion Nov. 6 W Jewish Approaches to Religious Pluralism Nov. 8 F Film: "The Jew in the Lotus" by Laurel Chiten. Readings: • Emil Fackenheim, What is Judaism? Part III. • Irving Greenberg, "Judaism and Christianity after the Holocaust." • Abraham Joshua Heschel, "No Religion is an Island." V. THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION Nov. 11 M No Class: Veterans’ Day Observed Nov. 13 W Central Symbols of Christianity: Christ and Credo Nov. 15 F Central Symbols of Christianity: The Church Readings: • John A.T. Robinson, Honest to God. • "Christianity and the Road to Modernity," Ch. 2 in World Religions Today Nov. 18 M Evangelical and Ecumenical Christianity. Nov. 20 W Christian Approaches to Religious Pluralism. Nov. 22 F Film: "Pope John Paul II." Readings: • Byron Sherwin & Harold Kasimow, eds, John Paul II and Interreligious Dialogue, Ch. 1, 2, 3, & 5. • Diana L. Eck, Encountering God, Ch. 4, 5, 6. • W.C. Smith, "The Church in a Religiously Plural World" in Patterns of Faith Around the World. Nov. 25 M Panel: Christian Perspectives on Today's Issues Nov. 27 W No Class: Thanksgiving Break VI. THE MUSLIM TRADITION Dec. 2 M Fundamentals of Islam: The Oneness of God, The Prophet Muhammad Dec. 4 W Fundamentals of Islam: The Qu'ran Dec. 6 F Film: "Islam in America" by Christian Science Monitor Readings: • Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Ideals and Realities of Islam. • "Islam: The Many Faces of the Muslim Experience," Ch. 4 in World Religions Today. Dec. 9 M Fundamentals of Islam: The Shariah Dec. 11 W Muslim Approaches to Religious Pluralism Dec. 13 F Panel: Muslim Perspectives on Today's Issues Readings: • Sherwin and Kasimow, John Paul II and Interreligious Dialogue, Part 4. Muslim respondents. • Abdolkarim Soroush, "Intellectual Autobiography: An Interview," in Mahmoud Sadri and Ahmad Sadri, eds. Reason, Freedom, and Democracy in Islam: Essential Writings of Abdolkarim Soroush. VII. CONCLUDING DISCUSSIONS Dec. 16 M Responses to Diversity: Fundamentalism, Communalism, Secularism Dec. 18 W Religious Pluralism and the Challenge of a Global Ethic Reading: • "Toward a Global Ethic," available on the web at http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/stiftung-weltethos/dat_eng/st_3_e.htm REQUIRED READING The required reading has been chosen with particular criteria in mind. Most of these are books about a particular religious tradition by an adherent of that tradition. Most are not written as historical introductions to the traditions, but as introductions to the concepts, symbols, and issues of each tradition. One additional text for the course is World Religions Today. In a sense, it constitutes introductory background readings for each tradition. These chapters are not usually the primary subject of discussion in section, but they provide a framework in which to understand the wider context of each tradition we are studying. The following books have been ordered for purchase. They are also on reserve at Hilles, Lamont, and Andover Harvard Libraries: • Wilfred Cantwell Smith, Patterns of Faith Around the World (1962; One World Publications, 1998) • Diana L. Eck, Encountering God: A Spiritual Journey from Bozeman to Banaras (Beacon Press, 1993) • Swami Nikhilananda. Hinduism (1958; Ramakrishna-Vivekananda Center of New York, 1998) • M.K. Gandhi, All Religions Are True (Navajivan Press). Xerox. • Walpola Rahula,What the Buddha Taught (Grove Press, 1959) • Thich Nhat Hanh, Being Peace (Parallax Press, 19xx) • Emil Fackenheim, What is Judaism? (Macmillan, 1987) • Byron L. Sherwin and Harold Kasimow, eds. John Paul II and Interreligious Dialogue (Orbis, 1999) • John A.T. Robinson, Honest to God (Westminster Press, 1962) • Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Ideals and Realities of Islam (1965; Kazi Press, 2000??) • John Esposito, Darrel Fasching, Todd Lewis, World Religions Today, Oxford 2002) These books are available for purchase at the Harvard Coop or at the Harvard Divinity School bookstore in Divinity School Bookstore on the first floor of 14 Divinity Avenue. Additional xerox materials will be made available for purchase in class. The Pluralism Project website is www.pluralism.org and it has a variety of resources for the course, including a section entitled "In the News," a searchable record of news stories on religious traditions, controversies, and interrelations of the United States. COURSE REQUIREMENTS Active section participation. Five short three-page response papers will be due in section during the weeks of October 7, October 25, November 4, November 18, and December 9 -- in each case, the second week of our study of each tradition. These papers along with your participation in section discussions will cumulatively constitute 1/3 of the course grade. There is no midterm examination. Voices on the Web. During the first week in which we study each tradition, you should spend some time exploring the range of voices on the internet. You should look particularly for the voices of women, the voices of those involved in religious conflicts, the voices of those engaged in interreligious dialogue, the collective voices of major religious organizations, the voices of dissidents and reformers. By Tuesday of that week, submit to your section leader a description of the website you have found most interesting. It should be about one paragraph, and along with it you should submit a brief one-line description to become part of the class website. A selection of links will be made on the World Religions: Diversity and Dialogue web page. (This is a required, but not graded, assignment) Term Paper. This gives you a chance to explore a topic germane to the subject matter of this course and close to your own interests. This paper should be about 15 pages in length. An extensive term paper bibliography will be distributed, but it is intended only as a starting place. Your own paper topic and bibliography should be submitted to your section leader by Monday, December 2. The paper is due Friday, January 10. (1/3 of the course grade) Final Exam, Saturday, January 18 (1/3 of the course grade) _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From dkaag@turbonet.com Fri Jul 25 00:54:09 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:54:09 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Ice Cream... Message-ID: <1E060D2A-BE32-11D7-8586-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Guys: Don't worry... give it five or ten years and another study will come out saying that this one is bogus, and that ice cream is actually a health food. Consider eggs (bad, now good), wine (bad, now good) and the AMA's vendetta against Dr. Atkins for the last 20 years (declared bad and unhealthy, now it turns out that he was right about a high protein, low carbohydrate diet). So, Tex, try the Baskins diet, and if it works, I'm there! Regards, Don Kaag From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 01:05:29 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] CHRIST church - DOWN FOR THE COUNT!!!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030725000529.1769.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1992723586-1059091529=:636 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii josh: you know that everyone who attends Christ church worships Satan, and that no one in town likes that church. loser... Joshua Gibbs wrote: Doug, You know that everyone on the forum thinks you are insane, and that nobody likes you, right? Just checking, Josh _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1992723586-1059091529=:636 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
josh: you know that everyone who attends Christ church worships Satan, and that no one in town likes that church.  loser...

Joshua Gibbs <ridethesaintedrhythms@hotmail.com> wrote:

Doug,

You know that everyone on the forum thinks you are insane, and that nobody
likes you, right?

Just checking,
Josh

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1992723586-1059091529=:636-- From thansen@moscow.com Fri Jul 25 01:11:55 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:11:55 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Ice Cream... In-Reply-To: <1E060D2A-BE32-11D7-8586-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Message-ID: Pretty soon they will be telling us that beer isn't one of the major food groups. Tom Hansen > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Don Kaag > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 4:54 PM > To: Vision2020 > Subject: [Vision2020] Ice Cream... > > > Guys: > > Don't worry... give it five or ten years and another study will come > out saying that this one is bogus, and that ice cream is actually a > health food. > > Consider eggs (bad, now good), wine (bad, now good) and the AMA's > vendetta against Dr. Atkins for the last 20 years (declared bad and > unhealthy, now it turns out that he was right about a high protein, low > carbohydrate diet). > > So, Tex, try the Baskins diet, and if it works, I'm there! > > Regards, > > Don Kaag > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > From dkaag@turbonet.com Fri Jul 25 01:13:26 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:13:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religion in schools... Message-ID: Visionaries: A bit of clarification on religion in the public schools. It is not illegal to teach about the various branches of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Shinto, Hinduism, etc. in the school system. It is illegal to teach any of them as advocacy of a particular religion. Teaching American Government would be difficult without mentioning the Judeo/Christian basis of the legal system, and World History would be tough as well without mentioning the effects of religion on the world. How would you explain the Crusades, for example? Cultural Geography must talk about religion in order to teach about various cultures' world views. Our public school system here in Moscow has Bibles and other religious texts on the shelves in the libraries as reference books. We just do not teach the ascendency of one religion over another. When I was teaching at the junior high school, I noticed that the only religious texts in the library were the Revised Standard Bible and the Book of Mormon. I then went to friends in the local Jewish and Islamic communities and obtained copies of the Jerusalem Bible (Hebrew/English) and the Koran (Arabic/English), and donated them to the school to add to their collection. I was unable to find copies of the Analects of Confucious, the Sayings of his disciple Mencius, and the Bhagavad Gita, and my worn paperback copies were inappropriate for donation, but I am sure that if anyone has access to good Mandrin/English and Hindu/English hard cover copies, they would be a welcome addition. Regards, Don Kaag From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Fri Jul 25 01:25:10 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:25:10 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <02bc01c35246$c03c46f0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Hello, Mr. Moffett: > >I do believe in the death penalty, and I don't dodge the fact that there is > >controversy over this topic throughout our nation. But the death penalty is > >a side issue; > > I am talking about the debate within Christianity on the death penalty. Is > not one of the Ten Commandments "Thou Shall Not Kill?" Of course I know > that this can be interpreted to mean "Do Not Murder" but this just begs the > question, when the State takes the life of another human being who is locked > up and not a danger to society, is this murder? kIlling in self defense is > not the issue here. There have been a considerable number of murderers who have been locked up, then broke out and killed again. Serial killers are truly a threat to society, behind bars or not, but they also took away something from someone that cannot be given back. They no longer deserve the right to breathe once they've stopped another human's heart. BTW, I've never actually met another Christian who thought that the death penalty was wrong. It seems more of a leftist position. > But you think the State killing someone in cold blood is a side issue? What > sort of morality do you really represent? Oh, it's important, all right. I was saying that it was a side issue to our discussion. We were debating how difficult it was to understand the Ten commandments, not whether the death penalty is right. Although there is a debate over that, it doesn't come because people read the T. C.'s and said, "?" It comes from someone actually disobeying the command to not murder. > You are absolutely wrong! How about that for certainty! I do not support > the death penalty, and if you killed someone I loved it is possible I would > lose my temper and take you apart, but that is entirely different than > giving the State the power to kill in cold blood in a jail, which is what > supporting the "death penalty" means. I believe you are incorrect. I don't know a whole lot about the legal system, but my understanding is that first you went through something called a trial, where a jury decides what penalty there will be for a crime. The State has no power to enforce the death penalty unless the verdict is guilty as charged (unless, of course, the defendant was foolish enough to opt out of a jury trial, or he knew he was guilty and pled accordingly). The principle behind the courtroom, which you will hear in any trial, is innocent until proven guilty. And if someone kills a loved one of yours, you will try to prove them guilty, Mr. Moffett. BTW, Idaho's methods of authorized execution are lethal injection and a firing squad. Just so you know... > Perhaps I can suggest that you are an empiricist of a sort when you assert > that your absolute code of conduct and morality comes from a book which you > believe to be divinely revealed. Therefore the empirical data that are the > foundation for your belief system are contained in the Bible. You will only > accept what you can determine when the Bible is under your microscope. No > facts from the Bible, no religion. If you mean that I am a Christian because my ears heard the gospel or my eyes read the Bible, then of course. All of us use our faculties to gather information about the world around us - it's known as the Five Senses. You're using them right now to read this post. But that's not the same thing as denying the existence of something unless you can chemically diagram and manipulate it, which is empiricism. Sincerely and respectfully, Luke Nieuwsma P.S. I think for a long time I've been spelling your name with only one 't' - it was completely unintentional, just so you know. I am not trying to mock you From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Fri Jul 25 01:26:34 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:26:34 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Government killing, etc. References: Message-ID: <02bd01c35246$c198a2a0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Dear Visionaries: After yesterday's city tax increase by 4%, a question popped into my mind. Why do we pay property taxes? It seems rather ridiculous that someone can make you pay constant rent for what you own. If I work hard and earn up money to buy a house, once I've paid the 150k or more I shouldn't have to keep paying. We as a nation are falling asleep, and big government is snatching our rights out from under us; why does the gov get to do this? Aren't the massive sales and import taxes enough? Sincerely, Luke Nieuwsma From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 02:30:51 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:30:51 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] California Democrats Overheard On Budget: Milking Crisis Message-ID: Democrats say stuff on accident that meant to be secret and offends people that don't think politicans are corrupt. Republicans just say stupid stuff right out in public that offends gays, lesbians, and minorities. Pick your poison! Donovan J Arnold >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: "'Dan Carscallen'" , >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] California Democrats Overheard On Budget: Milking >Crisis >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:37:39 -0700 > >Nah. They are just less likely to get caught with their pants down... > >Best, >Dale > > > > _____ > >From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On >Behalf Of Dan Carscallen >Sent: Thursday, 24 July, 2003 09:17 >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] California Democrats Overheard On Budget: Milking >Crisis > > >Donovan asked: > >. . . I wonder what the Republicans say? > > >They only say smart stuff . . . > >DC > _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From predator75@moscow.com Fri Jul 25 02:39:43 2003 From: predator75@moscow.com (Dan Carscallen) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:39:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] California Democrats Overheard On Budget: Milking Crisis References: Message-ID: <004401c3524d$a01b29c0$85f2f5c7@0019522361> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C35212.F3147900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donovan said: >Democrats say stuff on accident that meant to be secret and offends = people=20 >that don't think politicans are corrupt. Republicans just say stupid = stuff=20 >right out in public that offends gays, lesbians, and minorities. Pick = your=20 >poison! Well, I guess that means at least those republicans to whom you are = referring are at least honest with the public about their beliefs, = instead of faking it . . . DC ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C35212.F3147900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Donovan said:
 
>Democrats say stuff on accident that meant to be secret and = offends=20 people
>that don't think politicans are corrupt. Republicans just = say=20 stupid stuff
>right out in public that offends gays, lesbians, = and=20 minorities. Pick your
>poison!

Well, I guess that means at = least=20 those republicans to whom you are referring are at least honest with the = public=20 about their beliefs, instead of faking it . . .
 
DC
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C35212.F3147900-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 03:10:24 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:10:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] California Democrats Overheard On Budget: Milking Crisis Message-ID: Well, Dan, if you prefer a genuine bigot over a swindling Democrat, ok. That is the poising you choose. Very few things rank lower to me than a bigot. Donovan J Arnold >From: "Dan Carscallen" >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] California Democrats Overheard On Budget: Milking >Crisis >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:39:43 -0700 > >Donovan said: > > >Democrats say stuff on accident that meant to be secret and offends >people > >that don't think politicans are corrupt. Republicans just say stupid >stuff > >right out in public that offends gays, lesbians, and minorities. Pick >your > >poison! > >Well, I guess that means at least those republicans to whom you are >referring are at least honest with the public about their beliefs, instead >of faking it . . . > >DC _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From timlohr@yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 03:26:32 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Ice Cream... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030725022632.55177.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Tom et al., Or that coffee isn't mandatory for reasonably good mental health. TL --- Tom Hansen wrote: > Pretty soon they will be telling us that beer isn't > one of the major food > groups. > > Tom Hansen > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > Behalf Of Don Kaag > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 4:54 PM > > To: Vision2020 > > Subject: [Vision2020] Ice Cream... > > > > > > Guys: > > > > Don't worry... give it five or ten years and > another study will come > > out saying that this one is bogus, and that ice > cream is actually a > > health food. > > > > Consider eggs (bad, now good), wine (bad, now > good) and the AMA's > > vendetta against Dr. Atkins for the last 20 years > (declared bad and > > unhealthy, now it turns out that he was right > about a high protein, low > > carbohydrate diet). > > > > So, Tex, try the Baskins diet, and if it works, > I'm there! > > > > Regards, > > > > Don Kaag > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From davidcb@acm.org Fri Jul 25 03:29:11 2003 From: davidcb@acm.org (David Camden-Britton) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:29:11 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Ice Cream... In-Reply-To: <1E060D2A-BE32-11D7-8586-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030724192011.02e2c448@mail.turbonet.com> At 04:54 PM 7/24/2003 -0700, Don Kaag <dkaag@turbonet.com> wrote:
Consider eggs (bad, now good), wine (bad, now good) and the AMA's vendetta against Dr. Atkins for the last 20 years (declared bad and unhealthy, now it turns out that he was right about a high protein, low carbohydrate diet).
Some interesting articles...
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/lcd.html
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=503
http://www.eatright.org/Public/Media/PublicMedia_16442.cfm
http://www.ama-assn.org/sci-pubs/amnews/pick_02/hlsd1223.htm
http://www.ama-assn.org/sci-pubs/amnews/pick_01/hlsa0129.htm


David Camden-Britton -=)*(=-  davidcb@acm.org From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 03:47:57 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 02:47:57 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: Luke wrote: > There have been a considerable number of murderers who have been >locked >up, then broke out and killed again. Serial killers are truly a threat to >society, behind bars or not, but they also took away something from someone >that cannot be given back. They no longer deserve the right to breathe once >they've stopped another human's heart. > BTW, I've never actually met another Christian who thought that the >death penalty was wrong. It seems more of a leftist position. Ted replies: Luke, there are churches right here in Moscow where you can meet Christians who do not follow Karl Marx who also do not believe in the death penalty. Are you joking about this? Is support of the death penalty characteristic of dictatorships and so called right wing regimes? I could say it's a right wing position. Your casting of the death penalty as "left wing" reveals a bias on how you view the issue, it seems. So you think the Vatican is "left wing?" That Canada, Australia, France, England, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, etc. are all "left wing?" I am so totally bored with this simple minded linear left vs. right wing scheme for analyzing politics. It is so inadequate to truly describe a complex set of political beliefs for someone who thinks independently. Ted wrote: > > But you think the State killing someone in cold blood is a side issue? >What > > sort of morality do you really represent? > Luke replied: > Oh, it's important, all right. I was saying that it was a side issue >to >our discussion. We were debating how difficult it was to understand the Ten >commandments, not whether the death penalty is right. Although there is a >debate over that, it doesn't come because people read the T. C.'s and said, >"?" It comes from someone actually disobeying the command to not murder. Ted replies: I must have not been clear in my meaning. If one of the commandments is "Thou Shall Not Murder," and it is determined by Biblical scholars that for the State to kill someone who is no longer a danger to society locked up in a jail is "murder," then there is a controversy over the death penalty linked to differing interpretations of one of the Ten Commandments. The evidence is overwhelming that such a difference of opinion in Christianity does exist, is fervent and fundamental, involving millions of people who disagree. The point of emphasizing this disagreement over the interpretation of one of the Ten Commandments is to argue that indeed it can be difficult for the flawed and limited human mind to gain perfect knowledge of God's laws. You, however, appear to be superior, in flawless understanding of God's law, to the millions of Christians who disagree with you on the death penalty's contradictory and troubling connection to the Commandment "Thou Shall Not Murder." Though brilliant Biblical scholars disagree with you, you have no doubt that you are correct and know God's law perfectly with no error. Correct? Ted wrote: > > > You are absolutely wrong! How about that for certainty! I do not >support > > the death penalty, and if you killed someone I loved it is possible I >would > > lose my temper and take you apart, but that is entirely different than > > giving the State the power to kill in cold blood in a jail, which is >what > > supporting the "death penalty" means. > Luke replied: > I believe you are incorrect. I don't know a whole lot about the legal >system, but my understanding is that first you went through something >called >a trial, where a jury decides what penalty there will be for a crime. The >State has no power to enforce the death penalty unless the verdict is >guilty >as charged (unless, of course, the defendant was foolish enough to opt out >of a jury trial, or he knew he was guilty and pled accordingly). The >principle behind the courtroom, which you will hear in any trial, is >innocent until proven guilty. And if someone kills a loved one of yours, >you >will try to prove them guilty, Mr. Moffett. > BTW, Idaho's methods of authorized execution are lethal injection and >a >firing squad. Just so you know... > Ted replied: Yes, of course, I meant that the killing of the convicted by the State after a trial has determined that death penalty is to be enforced is still cold blooded deliberate killing of a person when they are restrained and in jail. Ted wrote: > > Perhaps I can suggest that you are an empiricist of a sort when you >assert > > that your absolute code of conduct and morality comes from a book which >you > > believe to be divinely revealed. Therefore the empirical data that are >the > > foundation for your belief system are contained in the Bible. You will >only > > accept what you can determine when the Bible is under your microscope. >No > > facts from the Bible, no religion. > Luke replied: > If you mean that I am a Christian because my ears heard the gospel or >my >eyes read the Bible, then of course. All of us use our faculties to gather >information about the world around us - it's known as the Five Senses. >You're using them right now to read this post. But that's not the same >thing >as denying the existence of something unless you can chemically diagram and >manipulate it, which is empiricism. Ted replies: I don't want to get into a technical discussion of empiricism vs. rationalism etc. I am not an empiricist in the strict meaning of the term, anyways. But scientific methods and theory involve all sorts of amazing inferences from fact using theory to unobserved inferred realities. So the "invisible" beyond our senses is very much a part of science, and some scientists attempt to study "invisible" para-normal phenomena, for example, that many people think rather unscientific. Science is a method of gaining knowledge based on replicable experiments and/or data gathering using theory to make inferences from the facts, but this method does not, as you state, "deny the existence of something unless it can be chemically diagrammed or manipulated." If something cannot be chemically diagrammed or manipulated, it may not be understood in these terms, but why does it follow it does not exist, according to science? Scientific method indicates that many possibilities exist, and none can be ruled out till they are examined with experiment and observation and theory. Even then, many explanations for a given phenomena may still be possible. What is your point? I think you are arguing from a negative view of science trying to make science look bad by making a case that it somehow demeans or degrades life and spirituality etc. a common tactic by those who do like certain conclusions science has come to. I don't care if you spell my name with one t or two. Minor issue. Ted _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 05:04:48 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:04:48 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq Message-ID: Tim writes: > "FINALLY! Now this is what I wanted out of what was >becoming a tiresome discussion--some genuine political >analysis. I was starting to think everyone on here was >too defensive about their precious Democrat party to >be able to discuss what in the heck they're doing." Tim there is only three things I do very well. 1) Make people mad 2) Stand up for the rights of the disadvantaged 3) Political strategy--(I know this contradicts number one). The third is my second favorite. I have never been that off in my political predictions. Granted, I am not perfect, but for the most part I have a good batting average on political predictions. Let us look at each one that you brought up Tim. Let us start at the bottom and work up. Mosley-Braun is the election only for one reason, she is planted to steal votes from Al Sharpton Sharpton is the election to build up his political base and standing in the Black community. Yes he can pick up a few votes and delegates around the South. However, he is doing this only so he can speak at the Democratic convention and raise issues facing minorities. There is not any other candidate that I like better on the issues than Sharpton. But he doesn't stand a chance. Braun keeps him from picking up more delegates in the convention and lessens his ability to choose a candidate that can't win the general election. His ability to be effective may be cut short if he continues to fail to generate enough funds to even make it to Southern Primaries. Kucinich has a hidden agenda. He can't win the nomination, and he certainly can't win the general election. He probably could not even carry his state at this point if he was a VP pick. But his high media attention does give him good name recognition. He could be using that for another reason, such as fighting for the Democratic nomination for US Senate to defeat Senator Voinovich who is showing weakness. He may need that name recognition to defeat Fingerhut and Jerry Springer for the nomination. Others think he is considering a nomination by the Green Party and running in states where the democratic nominee can't win anyway. Graham, is not a serious contender. He is only looked at as a VP candidate because he could help with carrying Florida. He is only barely placing over Kucinich in the polls and money. Frankly, he is boring and not that appealing. Edwards, I don't think he is taken seriously. He can't win because people that even like him know that he is not experienced enough to be President of the United States. He is also a trial lawyer, not a popular occupation nowadays. He could be picked as a VP by Lieberman to compliment the ticket and bring in the 11 electoral votes needed in addition to the 260 electoral votes the Democrats pretty much already have giving them 271 electoral votes. Gephardt, doesn't have a chance. He can sway who gets the nomination. He is only doing well in Iowa because he has campaigned there since 1986 and they owe him big time for all the legislation he pushed through for the farmers and blue collar labor unions. He is from Missouri and is often called Iowa's fifth Representative(there is not 5th district, but he does just as much for them) If Gephardt places any lower than a strong first place he is done right there. New Hampshire will kill him, he will place probably 4th or fifth there. If he gets lots of attention, he might place fourth. He is known as a great fundraiser for the Democratic party and is not doing that well, a strong sign of weakness in support. Kerry is where we start to see someone that can look and act like a President. He is has a record that matches most past presidential candidates and Presidents. His ability to be a serious contender ends or begins on in the New Hampshire Primary. If he places first in the Primary over Howard Dean he is in the race for a while and could clinch the nomination. He would do much better than Dean in the General election. However, if he places a distant second or third even in the NH primary people will stop supporting him and his funds will dry up quick. He probably could get really nasty with Dean, but this would most likely benefit other candidates besides him for going negative even though it would prevent Dean the nomination. Lieberman, has a good chance in the General election. Most national polls show him ahead of Dean and Kerry. He is also favored by the DLC and DNC over Dean and Kerry. He unfortunately is not ranking well in Iowa and New Hampshire. His lack of media attention, and large number of potential voters taking a "wait and see" attitude is hurting him. He has huge name recognition nationally because he was Al Gore's running mate. His base support is in "right of center" Democrats and independents. This is not good for the Democratic nomination but is good if he should win. He is not an exciting man, and may be weeded out with the pack as he fails to produce results in Iowa and New Hampshire. The Democratic Party leaders are trying to prevent this because he is a viable option for a win in the General election. Dean represents a serious dilemma for those that know better. He has the ability to get the nomination, he also has the ability to defeat Bush in the electoral college in the general election. What he also has the ability to destroy the Democratic Party and bury it deep so nobody can bring it back for the next eight to twenty years. He appeals to the most Democrats but none on the right of center. If Dean did win the nomination and even if he won the election, he would cost US House and Senate Seats all across the nation. This would put the Democratic party as a small minority in the two houses. In addition, I think that Dean would lose the General election. Bush and his people are not going to play nice with Dean. Dean has a huge closet full of skeletons that will brought out and shown to the public. If things get tuff for Bush he can do three things. Have his brother instruct the state legislature in Florida to throw out the popular vote in Florida and cast the electoral vote for him (unfair but legal)Second, he can drop Cheney from the ticket, put him somewhere else in the administration, and choose Tom Ridge, taking Pennsylvania. Impossible for Dean to overcome a 23 electoral vote lose. Third, Cheney can instruct the NEW CIA director to fabricate evidence of WMD in Iraqi that showed a serious threat to the security of the United States and produce *fake* documents that show that Saddam was working with Bin Laudin to unleash chemical and biological weapons on US cities. This would discredit Dean because his stance was that we should not enter war with Iraqi because it was not a threat and show weapons of mass destruction. You are correct that most the people that support Dean would still do so even if he molested a child and it was on video tape. However, this fabricated evidence will be enough to cost Dean one state and cost him the election. That is why I pick General Wesley Clark. He has more brains than the other candidates. He is better looking, is an outsider, and can wipe Bush on issues of National Security, foreign policy, and economics in a live debate. He speaks well and is able to keep his cool. Bush will does not speak well and relies on his advisors to keep him up to date on the security issues and foreign policy issues. The economy is worse than 2000 and Clark use to work in the White House under Ford on in the Office of Budget and Management. So I think Bush will look very inferior to Clark on the national stage, and Bush will mess up eventually. His tricks with the WMD, switching running mates, or stealing Florida will not work because he opposed the war for different sound reasons and can win without Florida or Pennsylvania. So Bush would be toast. The problem is can Clark win the Democratic nomination? I don't know, to many Republicans that back him anger Democrats which threatens efforts to get him the nomination. Republicans for Clark want him to tout his positions on the right, which will not win the Democratic nomination. Democrats want him because of his stances on domestic issues that fit their beliefs, Republicans want him because he is strong on national security and foreign policy. So if the two can get along, I think Clark can win the nomination. If they can't Clark will look wobbly on the issues and the Democrats will bury him at the Nomination and choose someone else like Dean, Kerry, or Lieberman. Other candidates like Joe Biden, if they enter, will lose. My hope is that if Clark doesn't enter the race that Hillary Clinton will and steal the nomination from Dean, lose to Bush, pick up Senate and House Seats and put us in a position to win in 2008. Even though I am a Democrat, I would not vote for Dean or Bush. No way! I will write in Clark or cast a vote for a third party candidate like Nader. Not that my vote counts anyway in Idaho. Donovan J Arnold >From: Tim Lohrmann >To: Donovan Arnold >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:47:04 -0700 (PDT) > >Donovan, > FINALLY! Now this is what I wanted out of what was >becoming a tiresome discussion--some genuine political >analysis. I was starting to think everyone on here was >too defensive about their precious Democrat party to >be able to discuss what in the heck they're doing. > > I think you've made some darned good points. But >what about Gephardt? You think he's not in the picture >at all? The only reason I do is because he's >apparently got a good start in Iowa for those >ridiculous caucuses that the press always puts so much >stock in. I think he might get off to a good start at >least, and possibly after a victory in Iowa become a >more moderate, labor-backed alternative to Kerry and >Dean in their almost home turf of New Hampshire. So, >if Dean and Kerry split the more liberal votes, >Gephardt could do well there. > > I'm not sure if I agree with you or not about >whether Dean fades if WMD's are found. You're right, >of course, that he's appealing to the more liberal >wing by criticizing Bush on foreign policy but I >believe that his support is pretty deep. In other >words, the people that DO support him are true >believers who won't be swayed. Remember, we're talking >Demo primary voters here, not the general election. >I'm sure they'll be forgiving about criticism of Bush >for any reason. Dean will of course be a weak >candidate in the Gen. Election, but so will Bush, and >somebody's got to win, right? > > AS for Lieberman, I don't think he's going anywhere >because most people just can't visualize the guy as >president. Edwards might just catch on yet. But I >think he needs to do it pretty quick if he's going to >start getting the money he's going to need from any >sector of big contributors other than his fellow trial >lawyers. > > Personally, I believe one of the under reported >aspects of this primary race is the effect Al Sharpton >will have. Of course it won't be much in Iowa or NH >where there are fewer minority voters. But when the >race moves to South Carolina and other Southern states >where blacks make up a very large percentage of Demo >primary voters, I think Ole Al will pick up quite a >few delegates. Jesse Jackson sure did. Then it will >be interesting to watch the Demo bigwigs trying to >shut Sharpton up (let's face it the guy DOES come up >with some interesting rants now and then) while at the >same time keeping black voters on their side. That >might be a tough one. > > TL > >--- Donovan Arnold wrote: > > Tim, > > > > I can't believe you don't see why Clinton said that. > > The Democratic Party is > > divided. The DLC and DNC want Lieberman and Edwards > > to win. The left wing of > > the party is fueled by anger and want Dean. A few > > others want Kerry because > > he is more moderate and served in the military. The > > Uranium words were > > giving Dean and Kerry the most traction. Clinton's > > words just pulled the > > traction and momentum right out from underneath Dean > > and Kerry moving > > Lieberman and Edwards into a better position. If WMD > > are found, Dean falls > > on his face and Kerry fades away. I have a hunch > > that there will be some > > weapons of mass destruction found, or planted, in > > the next 6 months. Clinton > > is saving the face of the Democratic Party in that > > event. I think it is > > smart. God help us if we have to choose between Bush > > and Dean in 2004. We > > might as well concede the 50 colonies back to the > > British and say this > > experiment is over in that event. Choosing between > > a man who lies and is > > incompetent and a man who does not tell the truth > > and is not competent, is > > not much of a choice if you ask most people. > > I support General Wesley Clark for President, no > > matter what! He has more > > qualifications than anyone in the ring now. He is a > > "to the slightly left" > > Ronald Reagan. > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > > >To: Sunil Ramalingam > > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com > > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat > > on Iraq > > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:14:47 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >Sunil, > > > I CAN'T let go of the Democrats--at least the > > >national ones. They're so-o-o arrogantly > > condescending > > >towards all sorts of behavior except when one of > > their > > >own does it. Then it's fine! > > > Kerry is going around criticizing W for doing > > >exactly what he himself has recommended. That's the > > >sort of hypocrisy that needs to be exposed over and > > >over. > > > As for Bill Clinton's groin--even though he > > has > > >"opened the door" on that one(sorry, couldn't > > >resist)--I only brought him(and not his groin) up > > this > > >last time to speculate on why he would defend GW at > > >the exact moment when his partymates seem to be > > making > > >some hay over the W's uranium thingy. That seemed a > > >little puzzling to most on here. They couldn't > > answer > > >why he'd do it, and neither can I. > > > > > > In any case, Clinton's comments are directly > > >relevant to what you write that you consider > > important > > >below. Apparently ole Bill HAS looked at what W has > > >and is doing and he doesn't see a whole lot wrong > > with > > >it. > > > > > > The politics of all this is interesting, but as > > for > > >my personal view on the buildup to the war. I don't > > >believe it has made the country more secure against > > >possible terrorist attacks. I'd much rather have > > seen > > >these resources and in some cases manpower devoted > > to > > >dramatically stepped up efforts at finding out just > > >what and who is coming into our ports, across our > > own > > >borders, living in our cities etc. > > > As for the W administration's honesty. I > > believe > > >his administration is run by the neocons, many of > > whom > > >have written for years about how much they wanted > > to > > >go to war with Iraq. The WMD idea was a way to > > justify > > >what they wanted to do already. But again, so > > >apparently did many of the Demos. including many of > > >the ones travelling around to advance themselves by > > >criticizing W right now. > > > TL > > > > > > > > > > > >--- Sunil Ramalingam > > >wrote: > > > > Of course Kerry is trying to have it both ways. > > But > > > > it's silly to pretend the Democrats are some > > sort of > > > > monolithic, single-minded party. If they were, > > > > they'd be in power right now. > > > > > > > > Tim, let go of the Democrats long enough to > > answer > > > > this question: Do you think the Bush > > Administration > > > > has been honest, either in its buildup towards > > war, > > > > or since that time, in presenting its rationales > > for > > > > the invasion of Iraq? Since they're in charge > > now, > > > > wouldn't you agree that it might be more > > important > > > > to look at what they're doing, rather than > > focusing > > > > on Bill Clinton's groin? I for one would rather > > > > look elsewhere, and at items with more > > significance. > > > > > > > > Sunil Ramalingam > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Tim Lohrmann > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:52 PM > > > > To: thansen@moscow.com > > > > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > > > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National > > Democrat > > > > on Iraq > > > > > > > > Tom, > > > > Do the politics of the messenger mean that > > Kerry > > > > didn't make the statement? > > > > TL > > > > > > > > --- Tom Hansen wrote: > > > > > Of course, one must realize that John McCaslin > > > > > stands slightly to the right > > > > > of Rush Limbaugh as relfected in the articles > > > > > authored by him at: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.townhall.com/columnists/johnmccaslin/archive.shtml > > > > > > > > > > Tom Hansen > > > > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com > > > > > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > > > > > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:09 PM > > > > > > To: vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National > > Democrat > > > > on > > > > > Iraq > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visionaries, > > > > > > The Democrats' Iraq stances are looking > > > > > > increasingly schizophrenic, no? > > > > > > TL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY > > > > > > > By John McCaslin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > KERRY'S WAR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suffice it to say that Democratic > > > > > presidential > > > > > > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" the > > > > theme > > > > > of > > > > > > > his campaign. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On virtually every stump he's stood > > on > > > > this > > > > > > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has > > > > complained > > > > > that > > > > > > > President Bush sidestepped the > > congressionally > > > > > > > approved path to war by bypassing the > > United > > > > > > > Nations, by not building an international > > > > > coalition, > > > > > > > and simply by not doing what it was that > > he > > > > had > > > > > > > promised to do (actually, one could argue > > that > > > > > the > > > > > > > senator is wrong on all three counts). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in favor > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now > > says, > > > > > with > > > > > > > the understanding that Mr. Bush would > > exhaust > > > > > every > > > > > > > remedy first. What was the big hurry, in > > other > > > > > > > words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, when > > > > > nobody > > > > > > > else in Washington except the Inside the > > > > Beltway > > > > > > > column led with an item headlined, "Finish > > the > > > > > > > mission." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Debate on whether to take out Saddam > > > > > Hussein, > > > > > > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as one > > > > > > > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we > > had > > > > > > > written. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is > > > > > calling > > > > > > > for a 'strong' military attack in response > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of > > amassing > > > > a > > > > > > > stockpile of weapons of mass > > destruction.'B " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Weapons of mass destruction? That's > > what > > > > > Mr. > > > > > > > Kerry called them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "As the senator points out, military > > > > might > > > > > is > > > > > > > the only language Saddam knows B and > > fears. > > > > > 'Saddam > > > > > > > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a > > > > currency > > > > > that > > > > > > > he understands and values, for his > > > > unacceptable > > > > > > > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should > > not be > > > > a > > > > > > > strike consisting only of a handful of > > cruise > > > > > > > missiles hitting isolated targets > > primarily of > > > > > > > presumed symbolic value. But how long this > > > > > military > > > > > > > action might continue and how it may > > escalate > > > > > ... > > > > > > > and how extensive it would reach are for > > the > > > > > [White > > > > > > > House National] Security Council and our > > > > allies > > > > > to > > > > > > > know and for Saddam Hussein to find out!'B > > " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just as you wished, Senator. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web > > site > > > > > design software > > > > > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > > > > List services made available by First Step > > > > > Internet, > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse > > since > > > > > 1994. > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > > > > design software > > > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > > List services made available by First Step > > Internet, > > > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > 1994. > > > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > > >/////////////////////////////////////////////////////Get > > > > more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > > > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > > >Do you Yahoo!? > > >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > > >http://search.yahoo.com > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > List services made available by First Step > > Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > > 1994. > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months > > FREE*. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From mystic_chic1021@yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 06:12:05 2003 From: mystic_chic1021@yahoo.com (mysticchic) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Photographer Needed Message-ID: <20030725051205.50238.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com> --0-978794468-1059109925=:49919 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi I am trying to find an amateur photographer to help me with a project towards the end of September...Please direct all inquiries to happiness_99163@yahoo.com....I will provide the film and a stipend. Thank you --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-978794468-1059109925=:49919 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi I am trying to find an amateur photographer to help me with a project towards the end of September...Please direct all inquiries to happiness_99163@yahoo.com....I will provide the film and a stipend.
Thank  you

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-978794468-1059109925=:49919-- From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 15:08:07 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:08:07 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Ice Cream... Message-ID: That's when they will have gone too far....you can take my beer when you can pry it off my cold, dead fingers.....motto of my brand new American Beer Association..... Carl Westberg Jr. >From: "Tom Hansen" >Reply-To: >To: "Don Kaag" , "Vision2020" >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Ice Cream... >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:11:55 -0700 > >Pretty soon they will be telling us that beer isn't one of the major food >groups. > >Tom Hansen > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > Behalf Of Don Kaag > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 4:54 PM > > To: Vision2020 > > Subject: [Vision2020] Ice Cream... > > > > > > Guys: > > > > Don't worry... give it five or ten years and another study will come > > out saying that this one is bogus, and that ice cream is actually a > > health food. > > > > Consider eggs (bad, now good), wine (bad, now good) and the AMA's > > vendetta against Dr. Atkins for the last 20 years (declared bad and > > unhealthy, now it turns out that he was right about a high protein, low > > carbohydrate diet). > > > > So, Tex, try the Baskins diet, and if it works, I'm there! > > > > Regards, > > > > Don Kaag > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From joshuahendrik@yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 17:21:04 2003 From: joshuahendrik@yahoo.com (Joshua Nieuwsma) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030725162104.75565.qmail@web41011.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1504819550-1059150064=:74212 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mr. Nielsen, even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His Word and that He has preserved them throughout history for His Church, you would seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance. As Scrooge said: You might be perhaps a bit of bad beef, or a piece of underdone potato. No, there's more of gravy than the grave about you. Humbug I tell you! Humbug! I completely doubt that you would accept a voice from heaven saying "this is my son, hear him". Could you have conquered in the sign of the cross like Constantine did? With respect, I think you would be one of those dwarves in The Last Battle who stubbornly refused to believe they had gone through the stable door into paradise. And so to them paradise was a dank, dark, smelly, muddy, straw-strewn little sh! ed. And yet all around them was green grass, trees with perfect fruit, blue skies, pure streams of water, and next to them stood the King Himself. It is impossible to have "objective" truth according to man. Science is an inductive discipline, it is not deductive. It cannot prove anything. Human logic is based upon our own concepts and ideas. Why should I believe your logic over mine? And if the Bible indeed is not worthy of a single drop of blood in its defense, let alone blood spilled in the offense against the gates of Hell, what would you defend with your life, Mr. Nielsen? What is important enough to you to fight for? Daughter? Mother? Friend? House? Church? Nation? Why are any of those important? Who says they are? By what standard do you defend anything? The Bible shouldn't be in the public school because the Bible is truth, and truth has been denied in most every government school. have a good day, Joshua Nieuwsma Ralph Nielsen wrote: > From: Joshua Nieuwsma > Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific > To: vision > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State > > > I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism, > islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of > God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of the > public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public > education were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it, > kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have > have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the > highway than in the government school classroom. > > Allow me also to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an > integral part of some classes and point out that it is impossible for > any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one > anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with > direct foundation in God's Holy Word. > > Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught > about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that > have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world, > without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over > another? > > cheers, > > Joshua N. > Dear Joshua: First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like them or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion here. It is a proper noun, not a generic term. Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, none of them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around for centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. The reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by human beings, usually men. I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that none of them is worth a single drop of blood. Go in peace. Ralph Nielsen --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-1504819550-1059150064=:74212 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Mr. Nielsen,
 
even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His Word and that He has preserved them throughout history for His Church, you would seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance. As Scrooge said: You might be perhaps a bit of bad beef, or a piece of underdone potato. No, there's more of gravy than the grave about you. Humbug I tell you! Humbug! I completely doubt that you would accept a voice from heaven saying "this is my son, hear him". Could you have conquered in the sign of the cross like Constantine did? With respect, I think you would be one of those dwarves in The Last Battle who stubbornly refused to believe they had gone through the stable door into paradise. And so to them paradise was a dank, dark, smelly, muddy, straw-strewn little shed. And yet all around them was green grass, trees with perfect fruit, blue skies, pure streams of water, and next to them stood the King Himself.
 
It is impossible to have "objective" truth according to man. Science is an inductive discipline, it is not deductive. It cannot prove anything. Human logic is based upon our own concepts and ideas. Why should I believe your logic over mine?
 
And if the Bible indeed is not worthy of a single drop of blood in its defense, let alone blood spilled in the offense against the gates of Hell, what would you defend with your life, Mr. Nielsen? What is important enough to you to fight for? Daughter? Mother? Friend? House? Church? Nation? Why are any of those important? Who says they are? By what standard do you defend anything?
 
The Bible shouldn't be in the public school because the Bible is truth, and truth has been denied in most every government school.
 
have a good day,
 
Joshua Nieuwsma
 
 
 

Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu> wrote:
> From: Joshua Nieuwsma
> Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific
> To: vision
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State
>
>
> I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism,
> islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of
> God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of the
> public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public
> education were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it,
> kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have
> have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the
> highway than in the government school classroom. 
>  
> Allow me also! to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an
> integral part of some classes and point out that it is impossible for
> any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one
> anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with
> direct foundation in God's Holy Word.
>  
> Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught
> about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that
> have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world,
> without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over
> another?
>  
> cheers,
>  
> Joshua N.
>

Dear Joshua:
First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc.
are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like them
or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion he! re.
It is a proper noun, not a generic term.
Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, none of
them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around for
centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your
brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what
constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. The
reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by human
beings, usually men.
I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of
dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I
also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you
realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that
none of them is worth a single drop of blood.
Go in peace.
Ralph Nielsen

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-1504819550-1059150064=:74212-- From tomh@uidaho.edu Fri Jul 25 17:26:39 2003 From: tomh@uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:26:39 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FFD@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C352C9.8644DD30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Do we file this under "self-righteousness" or basic "arrogance"? Tom -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:21 AM To: vision Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state Mr. Nielsen, even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His Word and that He has preserved them throughout history for His Church, you would seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance. As Scrooge said: You might be perhaps a bit of bad beef, or a piece of underdone potato. No, there's more of gravy than the grave about you. Humbug I tell you! Humbug! I completely doubt that you would accept a voice from heaven saying "this is my son, hear him". Could you have conquered in the sign of the cross like Constantine did? With respect, I think you would be one of those dwarves in The Last Battle who stubbornly refused to believe they had gone through the stable door into paradise. And so to them paradise was a dank, dark, smelly, muddy, straw-strewn little shed. And yet all around them was green grass, trees with perfect fruit, blue skies, pure streams of water, and next to them stood the King Himself. It is impossible to have "objective" truth according to man. Science is an inductive discipline, it is not deductive. It cannot prove anything. Human logic is based upon our own concepts and ideas. Why should I believe your logic over mine? And if the Bible indeed is not worthy of a single drop of blood in its defense, let alone blood spilled in the offense against the gates of Hell, what would you defend with your life, Mr. Nielsen? What is important enough to you to fight for? Daughter? Mother? Friend? House? Church? Nation? Why are any of those important? Who says they are? By what standard do you defend anything? The Bible shouldn't be in the public school because the Bible is truth, and truth has been denied in most every government school. have a good day, Joshua Nieuwsma Ralph Nielsen wrote: > From: Joshua Nieuwsma > Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific > To: vision > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State > > > I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism, > islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of > God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of the > public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public > education were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it, > kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have > have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the > highway than in the government school classroom. > > Allow me also! to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an > integral part of some classes and point out that it is impossible for > any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one > anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with > direct foundation in God's Holy Word. > > Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught > about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that > have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world, > without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over > another? > > cheers, > > Joshua N. > Dear Joshua: First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like them or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion he! re. It is a proper noun, not a generic term. Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, none of them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around for centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. The reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by human beings, usually men. I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that none of them is worth a single drop of blood. Go in peace. Ralph Nielsen _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software ------_=_NextPart_001_01C352C9.8644DD30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Do we file this under "self-righteousness" or basic "arrogance"?
 
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:21 AM
To: vision
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state

Mr. Nielsen,
 
even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His Word and that He has preserved them throughout history for His Church, you would seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance. As Scrooge said: You might be perhaps a bit of bad beef, or a piece of underdone potato. No, there's more of gravy than the grave about you. Humbug I tell you! Humbug! I completely doubt that you would accept a voice from heaven saying "this is my son, hear him". Could you have conquered in the sign of the cross like Constantine did? With respect, I think you would be one of those dwarves in The Last Battle who stubbornly refused to believe they had gone through the stable door into paradise. And so to them paradise was a dank, dark, smelly, muddy, straw-strewn little shed. And yet all around them was green grass, trees with perfect fruit, blue skies, pure streams of water, and next to them stood the King Himself.
 
It is impossible to have "objective" truth according to man. Science is an inductive discipline, it is not deductive. It cannot prove anything. Human logic is based upon our own concepts and ideas. Why should I believe your logic over mine?
 
And if the Bible indeed is not worthy of a single drop of blood in its defense, let alone blood spilled in the offense against the gates of Hell, what would you defend with your life, Mr. Nielsen? What is important enough to you to fight for? Daughter? Mother? Friend? House? Church? Nation? Why are any of those important? Who says they are? By what standard do you defend anything?
 
The Bible shouldn't be in the public school because the Bible is truth, and truth has been denied in most every government school.
 
have a good day,
 
Joshua Nieuwsma
 
 
 

Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu> wrote:
> From: Joshua Nieuwsma
> Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific
> To: vision
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State
>
>
> I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism,
> islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of
> God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of the
> public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public
> education were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it,
> kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have
> have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the
> highway than in the government school classroom. 
>  
> Allow me also! to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an
> integral part of some classes and point out that it is impossible for
> any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one
> anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with
> direct foundation in God's Holy Word.
>  
> Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught
> about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that
> have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world,
> without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over
> another?
>  
> cheers,
>  
> Joshua N.
>

Dear Joshua:
First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc.
are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like them
or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion he! re.
It is a proper noun, not a generic term.
Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, none of
them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around for
centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your
brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what
constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. The
reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by human
beings, usually men.
I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of
dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I
also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you
realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that
none of them is worth a single drop of blood.
Go in peace.
Ralph Nielsen

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C352C9.8644DD30-- From thansen@moscow.com Fri Jul 25 17:59:42 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:59:42 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state Message-ID: <200307251633.h6PGXmQU032466@whale2.fsr.net> Wait a minute! Whose Bible are we talking about? There are so many many versions. Please, Mr. Nieuwsma, enlighten us. Which Bible should us poor lemmings follow? Tom Hansen --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From eleysium@hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 18:36:39 2003 From: eleysium@hotmail.com (Joel Wilhelm) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:36:39 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] sects in the city In-Reply-To: <200307251633.h6PGXmQU032466@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: Sects in the City (of God) by Jeffery J. Ventrella If one thing is plain from redemptive history, it is that God is active in fallen creation in drawing a redeemed people to Himself. Time and time again, as history progresses, God divides, God delivers those who are His, and then God destroys His enemies. He does so to serve redemption and the expansion of the Kingdom. This occurs from Genesis to Revelation. A little reflection makes this point plain: Cain and Abel, Noah and the world, Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau, Moses and Pharaoh, David and Goliath, Elijah and Baal, Daniel and Babylon, Jesus and the Pharisees. Scripture's metaphors likewise depict this continuing antithetical clash in vivid terms: light and darkness (Col. 1:13), sheep and goats (Matt. 25:33), wheat and tares (Matt. 13:30), spirit and flesh (Gal. 5:16), alive and dead (Eph. 2:5), and the wise and the fool (Proverbs passim). Augustine describes this enduring conflict-one that serves redemption-as a clash between the City of God, on the one hand, and the City of Man on the other. When battle lines are drawn in the wrong places Sadly, what is too often forgotten is that this conflict occurs by design along covenantal lines-covenant-keepers battling covenant-breakers. Consequently, when division and factions (sects) predominate the City of God, effective cultural engagement-again, conflict that serves redemption-is quenched, as is the Spirit. The "covenant debates" of today often fail to recognize this critical component to the covenant: that the war's battle lines exist between covenant-breakers and covenant-keepers-not between brothers. Covenant-more than conditionality vel non, election, objectivity, justification, works, inclusion, et. al.-is about relationship first and foremost: first to God and then among His people. When the covenant debate is factionalized and relationships thereby crumble, the antagonists cease to be covenantal despite the propriety of their propositions. Today's "covenant wars" fail to appreciate that any community characterized by biting and devouring one another is a community that has dispensed with the gospel of grace, and hence the covenant. Any methodology that fails to place relational restoration as the predominant goal of the discussion-rather than a rush to judicial jihad-is manifestly, in a word, antinomian. Note that Jesus' description of covenantal ethics is entirely relational: And [Jesus] said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." (Matt. 22:37-40 ESV, emphasis added) Paul makes these points quite plain even (especially!) when dealing with the serious covenantal matters facing the churches in Galatia: If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. (Gal. 5:25-6:3 ESV, emphasis added) Covenantal debating Failing to adhere to this ethical mandate produces the biting and devouring Paul previously describes (5:15). The covenant's method must match the covenant's propositions. Absent this trait, there is no true covenant and no valid covenantal theory. The controlling question is very simple: do we who participate in the covenantal debate seek more to be in the right club, or do we seek to truly win the culture for Christ. The covenant is the conduit for cultural victory because God develops the covenant along the lines of the covenantal antithesis. As a result, those in the covenant together-in relationship and in community-assail the gates of Hades-not each other. Any conduct that blunts this God-ordained pathway likewise truncates and retards cultural and hence, redemptive, progress. One cannot truly think covenantally while simultaneously promoting sects in the City of God. Such divisive conduct, no matter how it is labeled, is patently non-covenantal. From dale@courtneys.us Fri Jul 25 17:55:18 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:55:18 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Taxing ourselves into prosperity Message-ID: <200307251658.h6PGwKQU076566@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0158_01C35292.DB1623F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The data for the 2003 State Tax Burden has been released. You'll be proud to know that Idaho has increased its position by 14 States to the #11 highest tax-burdened State in the USA. http://www.taxfoundation.org/statelocal03.html When Idaho's average personal incomes are taken into consideration (you may not have noticed, but it is lower than that of the higher tax-burdened States), we rank as #9 in the nation for the highest tax on personal income. http://www.taxfoundation.org/staterankings.html Congratulations! We truly are taxing ourselves into prosperity! Don't you all feel better off today? Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho ------=_NextPart_000_0158_01C35292.DB1623F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The=20 data for the 2003 State Tax Burden has been released. = You'll be proud=20 to know that Idaho has increased its position by 14 States to the #11 = highest=20 tax-burdened State in the USA.
 
http://www.taxfou= ndation.org/statelocal03.html
 
When=20 Idaho's average personal incomes are taken into consideration (you may = not have=20 noticed, but it is lower than that of the higher tax-burdened States), = we rank=20 as #9 in the nation for the highest tax on personal = income.
 
http://www.taxfo= undation.org/staterankings.html
 
Congratulations! We truly are taxing ourselves into=20 prosperity! Don't you all feel better off today?=20
&nbs= p;
Best,
Dale Courtney
Moscow, Idaho
 
------=_NextPart_000_0158_01C35292.DB1623F0-- From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Fri Jul 25 18:29:19 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:29:19 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] New Coffee House in Moscow? Message-ID: --part1_e4.3b2dcdd9.2c52c2ef_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Visioneers, as stated by Don Kaag in a recent V20/20 post: "I like Bucers, although I would be happy to have an alternative place which= =20 puts=20 smokers off in a room by themselves, plays soft classical music, has=A0=20 intellectually-challenging books to read, and serves reasonably good=20 wine by the glass.=A0 Someone else open another place like Bucers, and I=20 will spend time there, too.=A0 The Corner Club or the Slurp 'n Burp just=20 won't cut it---I dislike second-hand smoke and I loathe country and=20 western music." Phil says: I keep hearing complaints about Bucer's. I have the solution.=20 Are you aware that there is an ideal location for a coffee shop right here i= n=20 Moscow? Maybe with some poetry, jazz and blues? There is already a sound=20 system in place. It even has private outdoor seating. Room for a coffee roas= ter! A=20 cement vault to store your coffee beans or a wine cellar. Handicap=20 accessible. Furnished with couches, love seats and coffee tables. How about=20= a juice bar?=20 Already in place. The owner of the space is willing to work a joint venture=20 with the right individual. Approximately 5k square feet. A day light basement located below CJ's. Why complain? Cease the opportunity.=20 Drop me an email - Phil --part1_e4.3b2dcdd9.2c52c2ef_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Visioneers,

as stated by Don Kaag in a recent V20/20 post:

"I like Bucers, although I would be happy to have an alternative place wh= ich puts
smokers off in a room by themselves, plays soft classical music, has=A0
intellectually-challenging books to read, and serves reasonably good
wine by the glass.=A0 Someone else open another place like Bucers, and I will spend time there, too.=A0 The Corner Club or the Slurp 'n Burp just won't cut it---I dislike second-hand smoke and I loathe country and
western music."

Phil says:

I keep hearing complaints about Bucer's. I have the solution.

Are you aware that there is an ideal location for a coffee shop right here i= n Moscow? Maybe with some poetry, jazz and blues? There is already a sound s= ystem in place. It even has private outdoor seating. Room for a coffee roast= er! A cement vault to store your coffee beans or a wine cellar. Handicap acc= essible. Furnished with couches, love seats and coffee tables. How about a j= uice bar? Already in place. The owner of the space is willing to work a join= t venture with the right individual.

Approximately 5k square feet. A day light basement located below CJ's.

Why complain? Cease the opportunity.

Drop me an email - Phil



 --part1_e4.3b2dcdd9.2c52c2ef_boundary-- From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 19:02:03 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Pres. Speech To Congress On IRAQs WMD Message-ID: <20030725180203.41048.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1056128845-1059156123=:40265 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Mr. Speaker: (Mr. President:) Consistent with the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1) and as part of my effort to keep the Congress fully informed, I am reporting on the status of efforts to obtain Iraq's compliance with the resolutions adopted by the United Nations Security Council (UNSC). ... Overview As stated in my December 18 report, on December 16, ... The decision to use force was made after U.N. Special Commission (UNSCOM) Executive Chairman Richard Butler reported to the U.N. Secretary General on December 14, that Iraq was not cooperating fully with the Commission and that it was "not able to conduct the substantive disarmament work mandated to it by the Security Council." The build-up to the current crisis began on August 5 when the Iraqi government suspended cooperation with UNSCOM and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), except on a limited-range of monitoring activities. On October 31, Iraq announced that it was ceasing all cooperation with UNSCOM. In response to this decision, the Security Council on November 5 unanimously adopted Resolution 1205, which condemned Iraq's decision as a "flagrant violation" of the Gulf War cease-fire Resolution 687 and other relevant resolutions. Resolution 1205 also demanded that Iraq immediately rescind both its October 31 decision and its decision of August 5. This came after the passage on March 3, 1998, of Resolution 1154, warning Iraq that the "severest consequences" would result from Iraq's failure to cooperate with the implementation of Resolution 687. Iraq ignored the Security Council's demands until November 14, when U.S. and British forces prepared to launch air strikes on Iraq. Baghdad initially tried to impose unacceptable conditions on its offer of resumption of cooperation; however, the United States and Great Britain insisted on strict compliance with all relevant Security Council resolutions. Subsequently, Iraq agreed in writing in letters to the U.N. Secretary General to rescind its August 5 and October 31 decisions and to resume full cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA in accordance with Security Council resolutions. Iraq informed the Security Council on November 14 that it was the "clear and unconditional decision of the Iraqi government to resume cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA." On November 15, the Security Council issued a statement in which it stressed that Iraq's commitment "needs to be established by unconditional and sustained cooperation with the Special Commission and the IAEA in exercising the full range of their activities provided for in their mandates." UNSCOM and the IAEA resumed their full range of activities on November 17, but Iraq repeatedly violated its commitment of cooperation. As Chairman Butler's report of December 14 details, Iraq has, over the course of the last 8 years, refused to provide the key documents and critical explanations about its prohibited weapons programs in response to UNSCOM's outstanding requests. It refused to allow removal of missile engine components, denied access to missile test data, restricted photography of bombs, and endangered the safety of inspectors by aggressively maneuvering a helicopter near them. Iraq failed to provide requested access to archives and effectively blocked UNSCOM from visiting a site on November 25. On December 4 and again on December 11, Iraq further restricted UNSCOM's activities by asserting that certain teams could not inspect on Fridays, the Muslim sabbath, despite 7 years of doing so and the fact that other inspection teams' activities were not restricted on Fridays. Iraq blocked access to offices of the ruling Ba'ath Party on December 9, which UNSCOM held "solid evidence" contained prohibited materials. Iraq routinely removed documents from facilities prior to inspection, and initiated new forms of restrictions on UNSCOM's work. We also have information that Iraq ordered the military to destroy WMD-related documents in anticipation of the UNSCOM inspections. Iraq's actions were a material breach of the Gulf War cease-fire resolution (UNSC Resolution 687), the February 23, 1998, Annan-Aziz Memorandum of Understanding, and Iraq's November 14 commitment to the Security Council. The threat to the region posed by Iraq's refusal to cooperate unconditionally with UNSCOM, and the consequent inability of UNSCOM to carry out the responsibilities the Security Council entrusted to it, could not be tolerated. These circumstances led the United States and the United Kingdom to use military force to degrade Iraq's capacity to threaten its neighbors through the development of WMD and long-range delivery systems. During Desert Fox, key WMD sites and the facilities of the organizations that conceal them, as well as important missile repair facilities and surface-to-air missile sites, were attacked. Operation Desert Fox degraded Saddam's ability to threaten his neighbors militarily. UNSCOM and IAEA inspectors withdrew from Iraq on December 15 when Chairman Butler reported that inspectors were not able to conduct the substantive disarmament work required of UNSCOM by the Security Council. The United States continues to support UNSCOM and the IAEA as the agreed mechanisms for Iraq to demonstrate its compliance with UNSC resolutions concerning disarmament. Since December 18, the Security Council has discussed next steps on Iraq. It decided on January 30 to establish three assessment panels to address disarmament issues, humanitarian issues, and Kuwait-related issues. The panels, under the chairmanship of the Brazilian Ambassador to the United Nations, are due to complete their reviews by April 15. The United States also continues to support the international community's efforts to provide for the humanitarian needs of the Iraqi people through the "oil-for-food" program. On November 24, 1998, the Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 1210 establishing a new 6-month phase (phase five) of the oil-for-food program (phase four ended November 25). In January, the United States announced its support for lifting the ceiling on oil sales under the oil-for-food program so that Iraqi civilian humanitarian needs can better be met. As long as Saddam Hussein remains in power, he represents a threat to the well-being of his people, the peace of the region, and the security of the world. We will continue to contain the threat he poses, but over the long term the best way to address that threat is through a new government in Baghdad. To that end, we -- working with the Congress -- are deepening our engagement with the forces for change in Iraq to help make the opposition a more effective voice for the aspirations of the Iraqi people. Our efforts are discussed in more detail below. U.S. and Coalition Force Levels in the Gulf Region Saddam's record of aggressive behavior compels us to retain a highly capable force in the region in order to deter Iraq and deal with any threat it might pose to its neighbors, the reconstitution of its WMD program, or movement against the Kurds in northern Iraq. We demonstrated our resolve in mid-December when forces in the region carried out Operation Desert Fox to degrade Iraq's ability to develop and deliver weapons of mass destruction and its ability to threaten its neighbors. We will continue to maintain a robust posture and have established a rapid reinforcement capability to supplement our forces in the Gulf, if needed. Our forces in the region include land and carrier-based aircraft, surface warships, a Marine Expeditionary unit, a Patriot missile battalion, a mechanized battalion task force, and a mix of special operations forces deployed in support of U.S. Central Command. To enhance force protection throughout the region, additional military security personnel are also deployed. Because of the increased air-defense threat to coalition aircraft, we have also added a robust personnel recovery capability. Operation Northern Watch and Operation Southern Watch The United States and coalition partners continue to enforce the no-fly zones over Iraq through Operation Northern Watch and Operation Southern Watch. Since December 23, following the conclusion of Desert Fox, we have seen a significant increase in the frequency, intensity, and coordination of the Iraqi air defense system to counter enforcement of the no-fly zones. Since that date, U.S. and coalition aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones have been subject to multiple anti-aircraft artillery (AAA) firings, radar illuminations, and over 20 surface-to-air missile attacks. Subsequent to Desert Fox, Iraq significantly increased its air defense presence in both the north and south, but it has since returned to pre-Desert Fox levels. Despite the decrease, however, Iraq has not ceased threatening coalition aircraft. In response to Iraq's increased and repeated no-fly zone violations, and in coordination with the Secretary of Defense's advice, our aircrews have been authorized by me to respond to the increased Iraqi threat. United States and coalition forces can defend themselves against any Iraqi threat in carrying out their no-fly zone enforcement mission. On over 50 occasions since December, U.S. and coalition forces have engaged the Iraqi integrated air defense system. As a consequence, the Iraqi air defense system has been degraded substantially further since December. The Maritime Interception Force The multinational Maritime Interception Force (MIF), operating in accordance with Resolution 665 and other relevant resolutions, enforces U.N. sanctions in the Gulf. The U.S. Navy is the single largest component of the MIF, but it is frequently augmented by ships, aircraft, and other support from Australia, Belgium, Canada, Kuwait, The Netherlands, New Zealand, the UAE, and the United Kingdom. Member states of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) provide logistical support and shipriders to the MIF and accept vessels diverted for violating U.N. sanctions against Iraq. Kuwait was especially helpful providing significant naval and coast guard assistance. Additionally, they accepted over 15 diverted sanctions violators. Although refined petroleum products leaving Iraq comprise most of the prohibited traffic, the MIF has intercepted a growing number of ships smuggling prohibited items into Iraq in violation of U.N. sanctions and outside the parameters of the humanitarian oil-for-food program. In early December, the MIF conducted the latest in a series of periodic surge operations in the far northern Gulf near the major Iraqi waterways. These operations disrupted smuggling in the region. Kuwait and the UAE have stepped up their own enforcement efforts. Although partially repaired and back on line, damage to the Basra refinery inflicted during Desert Fox had a significant impact on Iraq's gas and oil smuggling operations in the Gulf. In December 1998, Iraq relocated surface-to-surface missile batteries to the coastal area of the Al Faw Peninsula. The missiles in question, with a range of nearly 60 nautical miles, could reach far into the North Arabian Gulf and posed a serious threat to the MIF. The deployment of these missiles to a position from which they could engage coalition naval forces was carried out in concert with the increased attempts to shoot down aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones and constituted an enhancement of Iraq's military capability in southern Iraq. Coalition aircraft responded with air strikes to the threat posed by these missiles and are authorized to continue to do so as necessary. Chemical Weapons After Iraq's November 15, 1998, pledge of unconditional cooperation with weapons inspectors, UNSCOM began to test the Iraqi promise. In a November 25 letter, Iraq continued to deny that it ever weaponized VX nerve agent or produced stabilized VX, despite UNSCOM's publicly stated confidence in the Edgewood Arsenal Laboratory finding of stabilized VX components in fragments of Iraqi SCUD missile warheads. Iraq alleges that the presence of VX was a deliberate act of tampering with the samples examined in the United States. On November 26, Iraq agreed to cooperate with UNSCOM efforts to determine the disposition of 155mm shells filled with mustard chemical agent, and UNSCOM agreed to proceed with such an effort when logistically possible. Iraq also agreed to cooperate in verifying the tail assemblies of R-400 bombs, and in determining the precise locations of pits that had been used for the field storage of special warheads at Fallujah Forest and the Tigris Canal. On November 30, the Iraqis failed to meet a deadline to provide various documents Chairman Butler requested pertaining to Iraq's chemical weapons program. Included in this request was the Iraqi Air Force file of documents found previously by UNSCOM inspectors that details chemical weapons expended during the Iran-Iraq war. We understand that UNSCOM believes the file indicates that Iraq's official declarations to UNSCOM have greatly overstated the quantities of chemical weapons expended, which means that at least 6,000 chemical weapons are unaccounted. In a January 25, 1999, report to the U.N. Security Council President, UNSCOM identified as a priority chemical weapons disarmament issues: VX, the 155mm mustard shells; the Iraqi Air Force file of chemical weapons documents; R-400 bombs filled with CBW (field inspections needed); and chemical weapons production equipment (field verification is needed for 18 of 20 shipping containers UNSCOM knows were moved together). On monitoring, the report identified as priorities the ability to verify Iraqi compliance at listed facilities and to detect construction of new dual-use facilities. Biological Weapons Iraq has failed to provide a credible explanation for UNSCOM tests that found anthrax in fragments of seven SCUD missile warheads. Iraq has been claiming since 1995 that it put anthrax in only five such warheads, and had previously denied weaponizing anthrax at all. Iraq's explanations to date are far from satisfactory, although it now acknowledges putting both anthrax and botulinum toxin into some number of warheads. Iraq's biological weapons (BW) program -- including SCUD missile BW warheads, R-400 BW bombs, drop-tanks to be filled with BW, spray devices for BW, production of BW agents (anthrax, botulinum toxin, aflatoxin, and wheat cover smut), and BW agent growth media -- remains the "black hole" described by Chairman Butler. Iraq has consistently failed to provide a credible account of its efforts to produce and weaponize its BW agents. During the period November 17 to December 2, 1998, an undeclared Class II Biosafety Cabinet and some filter presses were discovered; these items are subject to declarations by Iraq and biological monitoring. On November 18 and 20, Chairman Butler again asked Iraq's Deputy Prime Minister for information concerning Iraq's biological weapons programs. Iraq has supplied none of the information requested. In the January 25, 1999, report to the U.N. Security Council President, UNSCOM identified as a priority biological weapons disarmament issue Iraq's incomplete declarations on "the whole scope of the BW program."The declarations are important because "Iraq possesses an industrial capability and knowledge base, through which biological warfare agents could be produced quickly and in volume." The report also identified the importance of monitoring dual-use biological items, equipment, facilities, research, and acquisition at 250 listed sites. The effectiveness of monitoring is "proportional to Iraq's cooperation and transparency, to the number of monitored sites, and to the number of inspectors." Long-Range Missiles Iraq's past practices of (1) refusing to discuss further its system for concealment of longer range missiles and their components, (2) refusing to provide credible evidence of its disposition of large quantities of the unique fuel required for the long-range SCUD missile, and (3) continuing to test modifications to SA-2 VOLGA surface-to-air missile components appear intended to enhance Iraq's capability to produce a surface-to-surface missile of range greater than its permitted range of 150 km. While UNSCOM believes it can account for 817 of 819 imported Soviet-made SCUD missiles, Iraq has refused to give UNSCOM a credible accounting of the indigenous program that produced complete SCUD missiles that were both successfully test-flown and delivered to the Iraqi Army. In its January 25, 1999, report to the U.N. Security Council President, UNSCOM identified the following as priority missile disarmament issues: 50 unaccounted SCUD conventional warheads; 500 tons of SCUD propellants, the destruction of which has not been verified; 7 Iraqi-produced SCUDs given to the army, the destruction of which cannot be verified; truckloads of major components for SCUD production that are missing; the concealment of BW warheads; and the lack of accounting for VX-filled war-heads. The report identified as priorities the capability to monitor declared activities, leaps in missile technology, and changes to declared operational missiles. There are 80 listed missile sites. Nuclear Weapons After Iraq unconditionally rescinded its declarations of non-cooperation on November 15, the IAEA began to test the Iraqi pledge of full cooperation. The IAEA Director General Mohammed El-Baradei's December 14 report on Iraqi cooperation stated: "The Iraqi counterpart has provided the necessary level of cooperation to enable the above-enumerated activities [ongoing monitoring] to be completed efficiently and effectively." In its 6-month report to the Security Council on October 7, the IAEA stated that it had a "technically coherent" view of the Iraqi nuclear program. At that time, the IAEA also stated its remaining questions about Iraq's nuclear program can be dealt with within IAEA's ongoing monitoring and verification (OMV) effort. In the IAEA's February 8 report to the U.N. Security Council it reiterated this position. Nonetheless, Iraq has not yet supplied information in response to the Security Council's May 14 Presidential Statement. This statement noted that the IAEA continues to have questions and concerns regarding foreign assistance, abandonment of the program, and the extent of Iraqi progress in weapons design. Iraq has also not passed penal legislation prohibiting nuclear-related activities contrary to Resolution 687. In a February 8, 1999, report to the U.N. Secretary Council President, IAEA Director General Mohammed El-Baradei summarized previous IAEA assessments of Iraq's compliance with its nuclear disarmament and monitoring obligations. The report restates that "Iraq has not fulfilled its obligation to adopt measures and enact penal laws, to implement and enforce compliance with Iraq's obligations under Resolutions 687 and 707, other relevant Security Council resolutions and the IAEA OMV plan, as required under paragraph 34 of that plan." The IAEA states that the three areas where questions on Iraq's nuclear disarmament remain (lack of technical documentation, lack of information on external assistance to Iraq's clandestine nuclear weapons program, and lack of information on Iraq's abandonment of its nuclear weapons program) would not prevent the full implementation of its OMV plan. The IAEA continues to plan for long-term monitoring and verification under Resolution 715. In its February 8 report, the IAEA restated that monitoring must be "intrusive" and estimated annual monitoring costs would total nearly $10 million. Dual-Use Imports Resolution 1051 established a joint UNSCOM/IAEA unit to monitor Iraq's imports of allowed dual-use items. Iraq must notify the unit before it imports specific items that can be used in both weapons of mass destruction and civilian applications. Similarly, U.N. members must provide timely notification of exports to Iraq of such dual-use items. Following the withdrawal of UNSCOM and IAEA monitors, there is no monitoring of dual-use items inside Iraq. This factor has presented new challenges for the U.N. Sanctions Committee and is taken into consideration in the approval process. The U.N.'s "Oil-for-Food" Program We continue to support the international community's efforts to provide for the humanitarian needs of the Iraqi people through the oil-for-food program. Transition from phase four to phase five authorized by U.N. Security Council Resolution 1210) was smooth. As in phase four, Iraq is again authorized to sell up to $5.2 billion worth of oil every 180 days. However, because of a drop in world oil prices, Iraq was only able to pump and sell approximately $3.1 billion worth of oil during phase four. Since the first deliveries under oil-for-food began in March 1997, food worth $2.75 billion, and over $497 million worth of medicine and health supplies have been delivered to Iraq. As of January 19, under phase four of the oil-for-food program, contracts for the purchase of over $2.3 billion worth of humanitarian goods for the Iraqi people have been presented to the U.N. Office of the Iraq Program for review by the Sanctions Committee; of these, contracts worth over $1.6 billion have been approved; most of the remaining contracts are being processed by the Office of the Iraq Program. As of February 4, the United States had approved 584 contracts in phase four and had placed 28 on hold pending clarification of questions about the proposed contracts. With regard to funds set aside for imports of parts and equipment to increase oil exports, as of February 4, 333 contracts with a total value of nearly $178 million have been approved; 94 contracts are on hold. In January, the United States released a number of holds on oil spare parts contracts. Up to $300 million had been set aside in phase four of the oil-for-food program to pay for spare parts and equipment to increase Iraqi oil exports and thus increase available humanitarian funding. The United States had requested holds on contracts that did not directly boost oil exports. As the current phase of oil-for-food again sets aside $300 million for this purpose, the United States decided to remove holds on lower priority contracts. The Security Council met in January to discuss the humanitarian situation in Iraq. The United States supported an examination of the current situation and exploration of ways to improve the humanitarian situation, particularly with regard to vulnerable groups such as children under age five, and pregnant and nursing women. The United States has expressed its support for lifting the cap on Iraqi oil exports under the oil-for-food program, and has suggested some streamlining of approval of food and medicine contracts in the U.N. Sanctions Committee. Three assessment panels are being formed to look at Iraqi disarmament, the humanitarian situation in Iraq, and Iraq's obligations regarding Kuwait. The panels are expected to complete their work by the middle of April. Resolution 1210 maintains a separate oil-for-food program for northern Iraq, administered directly by the United Nations in consultation with the local population. This program, which the United States strongly supports, receives 13 to 15 percent of the funds generated under the oil-for-food program. The separate northern program was established because of the Baghdad regime's proven disregard for the humanitarian needs of the Kurdish, Assyrian, and Turkomen minorities of northern Iraq, and its readiness to apply the most brutal forms of repression against them. In northern Iraq, where Baghdad does not exercise control, the oil-for-food program has been able to operate relatively effectively. The Kurdish factions are setting aside their differences to work together so that Resolution 1210 is implemented as efficiently as possible. The United Nations is required to monitor carefully implementation of all aspects of the oil-for-food program. The current phase marked by Resolution 1210 anticipates infrastructure repairs in areas such as oil export capacity, generation of electricity, and water purification. The U.N. monitoring regime is presented with increasing challenges, as UNSCOM monitors are no longer in Iraq. Humanitarian programs such as oil-for-food have steadily improved the life of the average Iraqi living under sanctions (who, for example, now receives a ration basket providing over 2,000 calories per day, a significant improvement in nutrition since the program began) while denying Saddam Hussein control over oil revenues. We will continue to work with the U.N. Secretariat, the Security Council, and others in the international community to ensure that the humanitarian needs of the Iraqi people are met while denying any political or economic benefits to the Baghdad regime. Northern Iraq: Kurdish Reconciliation Since their ground-breaking meeting with Secretary Albright in September, Massoud Barzani, President of the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP), and Jalal Talabani, Chairman of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), have met three times to continue their work towards full reconciliation. Both parties have condemned internal fighting, pledged to refrain from violence in settling their differences, and resolved to eliminate terrorism by establishing stronger safeguards for Iraq's borders. Our deep concern for the safety, security, and economic well-being of Iraqi Kurds, Shias, Sunnis, and others who have been subject to brutal attacks by the Baghdad regime remains a primary focus of our Iraq policy. On November 4, the Governments of Turkey and the United Kingdom joined us in recognizing and welcoming the cooperative achievement of Mr. Barzani and Mr. Talabani. The three states reiterated the importance of preserving the unity and territorial integrity of Iraq and noted, with pleasure, the prominence the KDP and PUK have accorded this principle. We also welcomed the commitment by the KDP and PUK to deny sanctuary to the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), to eliminate all PKK bases from the region, and to safeguard the Turkish border. The parties believe that key decisions on Iraq's future should be made by all the Iraqi people together at an appropriate time and in a regular political process. Their work to achieve the principles embodied in the Ankara Statements are thus meant to implement a framework of regional administration until a united, pluralistic, and democratic Iraq is achieved. On January 8, the two leaders met without recourse to U.S., U.K., or Turkish interlocutors, in Salahidin in northern Iraq. They reiterated their determination to implement the September agreement, made concrete progress on key issues of revenue sharing and closing down PKK bases, and agreed to stay in close contact. The United States is committed to ensuring that international aid continues to reach the north, that the human rights of the Kurds and northern Iraq minority groups, such as the Turkomen, Assyrians, Yezedis, and others are respected, and that the no-fly-zone enforced by Operation Northern Watch is observed. The United States will decide how and when to respond should Baghdad's actions pose an increased threat to Iraq's neighbors, to regional security, to vital U.S. interests, and to the Iraqi people, including those in the north. The Human Rights Situation in Iraq The human rights situation throughout Iraq continues to be a cause for grave concern. As I reported November 5, the Iraqi army has stepped up repressive operations against the Shia in the south. In mid-November, we received unconfirmed reports from the Iraqi opposition that 150 persons had been executed at Amara, with three bodies left hanging on the city's main bridge over the Tigris River as a warning to those who oppose the regime. An additional 172 persons, some detained since 1991, were reported to have been summarily executed in Abu Gharaib and Radwaniya prisons; as in prior waves of summary prison killings, bodies showing clear signs of torture were reportedly returned to their families. Reports reached us in December that a mass grave containing at least 25 bodies was found near the Khoraisan River in Diyala province, east of Baghdad. The Iraqi government continues to work toward the destruction of the Marsh Arabs' way of life and the unique ecology of the southern marshes. In the past 2 months, 7 more villages were reportedly destroyed on the margins of the marshes, with irrigation water cut off and the vegetation cut down and burned. Those who could not flee to the interior of the marshes -- particularly the old, infirm, women, and children -- were said to have been taken hostage by regime forces. On February 19, the Shia Grand Ayatollah Mohammed al-Sadr was murdered in Iraq along with several of his relatives. Opposition sources indicate this murder was the work of the Saddam regime. The regime also violently suppressed demonstrations that followed in Baghdad and other cities opposing the murder. In the north, outside the Kurdish-controlled areas, the government continues the forced expulsion of ethnic Kurds and Turkomen from Kirkuk and other cities. In recent months, hundreds of families have reportedly been expelled from Kirkuk with seven new Arab settlements created on land seized from the Kurds. Reports from the Kurdish-controlled areas where the displaced persons are received indicate that they are forced to leave behind almost all of their personal property. Due to a shortage of housing, they are still living in temporary shelters. A conference on the research and treatment of victims of chemical and biological weapons attacks in northern Iraq, organized by the Washington Kurdish Institute and sponsored by the Department of State was held on November 18-19, 1998. The conference focused on the long-range effects of the Iraqi chemical attack on the village of Halabja, where nearly 5,000 persons were killed in 1988. According to panelists, the hideous combination of mustard gas, tabun, sarin, VX, tear gas, and possibly aflatoxin that the Iraqi military used in the attack has resulted in dramatically increased rates of cancer, respiratory problems, heart failure, infertility, miscarriages, and possibly genetic damage in the surviving population. On December 1, the London-based INDICT organization announced that 12 senior Iraqi officials -- including Saddam Hussein, his sons Uday and Qusay, his half-brother Barzan al-Tikriti, Vice President Taha Yasin Ramadan, and Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz -- would be the focus of its campaign for prosecution by an international tribunal. The Iraqi government continues to stall and obfuscate attempts to account for more than 600 Kuwaitis and third-country nationals who disappeared at the hands of Iraqi authorities during or after the occupation of Kuwait, despite a Security Council resolution requiring it to do so. Baghdad still refuses to allow independent human rights monitors to enter Iraq, despite repeated requests by U.N. Special Rapporteur for Iraq, Max Van der Stoel. The U.N. Human Rights Commission has issued a strong condemnation of the "all-pervasive repression and oppression" of the Iraqi government. The Iraqi Opposition We are deepening our engagement with the forces of change in Iraq, helping Iraqis inside and outside Iraq become a more effective voice for the aspirations of the people. We will work toward the day when Iraq has a government worthy of its people -- a government prepared to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its citizens, rather than represses them. On October 31, I signed into law the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. It provides significant new discretionary authorities to assist the opposition in its struggle against the regime. On January 19, I submitted to the Congress a notification of my intent to designate certain groups under the Act; I designated those groups on February 4. The assessment of additional groups that may qualify for assistance under the Act is progressing. Also on October 31, Radio Free Iraq began operations. Its broadcasts are being heard in Iraq and its message profoundly displeases the regime. On November 17, Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs, Martin Indyk, met with 17 London-based representatives of the Iraqi opposition. He heard the full range of views of the parties present, and outlined the new U.S. policy toward the opposition. Indyk urged them to work together toward the common purpose of a new government in Baghdad; the United States will help, but the opposition itself must take the lead. He urged them to do all they could to get a message to the people of Iraq that there is an alternative to Saddam Hussein, adding that the United States will support the campaign to indict Saddam as a war criminal. Former Iraqi Foreign Minister Adnan Pachachi outlined a number of agreed points to Indyk. The group: 1) welcomed the new U.S. policy toward the opposition; 2) will work to create a democratic government in Iraq; 3) will redouble efforts to get all groups to work together; 4) wants the opposition to serve as an interlocutor for the Iraqi people with the international community; and 5) expressed thanks for the U.S. role in the recent Kurdish reconciliation. On January 21, Secretary of State Albright announced the appointment of Frank Ricciardone as Special Representative for Transition in Iraq (SRTI). He will abbreviate his current tour as Deputy Chief of Mission in Ankara, and take up his new responsibilities in early March. He traveled with the Secretary of State to London, Riyadh, and Cairo in late January to discuss U.S. policy on this issue. He outlined U.S. intentions to help Iraq resume its rightful place in the region -- a goal the United States believes can only be achieved under new Iraqi leadership. He emphasized U.S. desire to work with Iraqis -- who alone can make this happen -- inside Iraq and outside Iraq, as well as with Iraq's neighbors who share the same objectives. There are, of course, other important elements of U.S. policy. These include the maintenance of Security Council support for efforts to eliminate Iraq's prohibited weapons and missile programs, and economic sanctions that continue to deny the regime the means to reconstitute those threats to international peace and security. United States support for the Iraqi opposition will be carried out consistent with those policy objectives as well. Similarly, U.S. support must be attuned to what Iraqis can effectively make use of as it develops over time. The United Nations Compensation Commission The United Nations Compensation Commission (UNCC), established pursuant to Resolutions 687, 692, and 1210, continues to resolve claims against Iraq arising from Iraq's unlawful invasion and occupation of Kuwait. The UNCC has issued over 1.3 million awards worth approximately $7 billion. Thirty percent of the proceeds from the oil sales permitted by Security Council resolutions have been allocated to the Compensation Fund to pay awards and to finance operations of the UNCC. Pursuant to decisions of the UNCC Governing Council, certain small claims are to receive initial payments of $2,500 toward the amounts approved on those claims before large claims of individuals and claims of corporations and governments may share in the funds available for claims payments. As money from Iraqi oil sales is deposited in the Compensation Fund the UNCC makes these initial $2,500 payments on eligible claims in the order in which those claims were approved by the UNCC. To date, the United States Government has received funds from the UNCC for initial installment payments on approximately 1435 claims of U.S. claimants. Conclusion Iraq remains a serious threat to international peace and security. I remain determined to see Iraq comply fully with all of its obligations under Security Council resolutions. The United States looks forward to the day when Iraq rejoins the family of nations as a responsible and law-abiding member. I appreciate the support of the Congress for our efforts and shall continue to keep the Congress informed about this important issue. Sincerely, --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-1056128845-1059156123=:40265 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Dear Mr. Speaker:   (Mr. President:)
Consistent with the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq
Resolution (Public Law 102-1) and as part of my effort to keep the
Congress fully informed, I am reporting on the status of efforts to
obtain Iraq's compliance with the resolutions adopted by the United
Nations Security Council (UNSC).  ...

Overview
As stated in my December 18 report, on December 16, ...
The decision to use force was made after U.N. Special Commission
(UNSCOM) Executive Chairman Richard Butler reported to the U.N.
Secretary General on December 14, that Iraq was not cooperating fully
with the Commission and that it was "not able to conduct the substantive
disarmament work mandated to it by the Security Council."
The build-up to the current crisis began on August 5 when the Iraqi
government suspended cooperation with UNSCOM and the International
Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), except on a limited-range of monitoring
activities.  On October 31, Iraq announced that it was ceasing all
cooperation with UNSCOM.  In response to this decision, the Security
Council on November 5 unanimously adopted Resolution 1205, which
condemned Iraq's decision as a "flagrant violation" of the Gulf War
cease-fire Resolution 687 and other relevant resolutions.  Resolution
1205 also demanded that Iraq immediately rescind both its October 31
decision and its decision of August 5.  This came after the passage on
March 3, 1998, of Resolution 1154, warning Iraq that the "severest
consequences" would result from Iraq's failure to cooperate with the
implementation of Resolution 687.
Iraq ignored the Security Council's demands until November 14, when U.S.
and British forces prepared to launch air strikes on Iraq.  Baghdad
initially tried to impose unacceptable conditions on its offer of
resumption of cooperation; however, the United States and Great Britain
insisted on strict compliance with all relevant Security Council
resolutions.
Subsequently, Iraq agreed in writing in letters to the U.N. Secretary
General to rescind its August 5 and October 31 decisions and to resume
full cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA in accordance with Security
Council resolutions.  Iraq informed the Security Council on November 14
that it was the "clear and unconditional decision of the Iraqi
government to resume cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA."
On November 15, the Security Council issued a statement in which it
stressed that Iraq's commitment "needs to be established by
unconditional and sustained cooperation with the Special Commission and
the IAEA in exercising the full range of their activities provided for
in their mandates."
UNSCOM and the IAEA resumed their full range of activities on November
17, but Iraq repeatedly violated its commitment of cooperation.  As
Chairman Butler's report of December 14 details, Iraq has, over the
course of the last 8 years, refused to provide the key documents and
critical explanations about its prohibited weapons programs in response
to UNSCOM's outstanding requests.  It refused to allow removal of
missile engine components, denied access to missile test data,
restricted photography of bombs, and endangered the safety of inspectors
by aggressively maneuvering a helicopter near them.  Iraq failed to
provide requested access to archives and effectively blocked UNSCOM from
visiting a site on November 25.
On December 4 and again on December 11, Iraq further restricted UNSCOM's
activities by asserting that certain teams could not inspect on Fridays,
the Muslim sabbath, despite 7 years of doing so and the fact that other
inspection teams' activities were not restricted on Fridays.  Iraq
blocked access to offices of the ruling Ba'ath Party on December 9,
which UNSCOM held "solid evidence" contained prohibited materials.  Iraq
routinely removed documents from facilities prior to inspection, and
initiated new forms of restrictions on UNSCOM's work.  We also have
information that Iraq ordered the military to destroy WMD-related
documents in anticipation of the UNSCOM inspections.
Iraq's actions were a material breach of the Gulf War cease-fire
resolution (UNSC Resolution 687), the February 23, 1998, Annan-Aziz
Memorandum of Understanding, and Iraq's November 14 commitment to the
Security Council.  The threat to the region posed by Iraq's refusal to
cooperate unconditionally with UNSCOM, and the consequent inability of
UNSCOM to carry out the responsibilities the Security Council entrusted
to it, could not be tolerated.  These circumstances led the United
States and the United Kingdom to use military force to degrade Iraq's
capacity to threaten its neighbors through the development of WMD and
long-range delivery systems.  During Desert Fox, key WMD sites and the
facilities of the organizations that conceal them, as well as important
missile repair facilities and surface-to-air missile sites, were
attacked.  Operation Desert Fox degraded Saddam's ability to threaten
his neighbors militaril! y.
UNSCOM and IAEA inspectors withdrew from Iraq on December 15 when
Chairman Butler reported that inspectors were not able to conduct the
substantive disarmament work required of UNSCOM by the Security Council.
The United States continues to support UNSCOM and the IAEA as the agreed
mechanisms for Iraq to demonstrate its compliance with UNSC resolutions
concerning disarmament.
Since December 18, the Security Council has discussed next steps on
Iraq.  It decided on January 30 to establish three assessment panels to
address disarmament issues, humanitarian issues, and Kuwait-related
issues.  The panels, under the chairmanship of the Brazilian Ambassador
to the United Nations, are due to complete their reviews by April 15.
The United States also continues to support the international
community's efforts to provide for the humanitarian needs of the Iraqi
people through the "oil-for-food" program.  On November 24, 1998, the
Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 1210 establishing a new
6-month phase (phase five) of the oil-for-food program (phase four ended
November 25).  In January, the United States announced its support for
lifting the ceiling on oil sales under the oil-for-food program so that
Iraqi civilian humanitarian needs can better be met.
As long as Saddam Hussein remains in power, he represents a threat to
the well-being of his people, the peace of the region, and the security
of the world.  We will continue to contain the threat he poses, but over
the long term the best way to address that threat is through a new
government in Baghdad.  To that end, we -- working with the Congress --
are deepening our engagement with the forces for change in Iraq to help
make the opposition a more effective voice for the aspirations of the
Iraqi people.  Our efforts are discussed in more detail below.

U.S. and Coalition Force Levels in the Gulf Region
Saddam's record of aggressive behavior compels us to retain a highly
capable force in the region in order to deter Iraq and deal with any
threat it might pose to its neighbors, the reconstitution of its WMD
program, or movement against the Kurds in northern Iraq.  We
demonstrated our resolve in mid-December when forces in the region
carried out Operation Desert Fox to degrade Iraq's ability to develop
and deliver weapons of mass destruction and its ability to threaten its
neighbors.  We will continue to maintain a robust posture and have
established a rapid reinforcement capability to  supplement our forces
in the Gulf, if needed.
Our forces in the region include land and carrier-based aircraft,
surface warships, a Marine Expeditionary unit, a Patriot missile
battalion, a mechanized battalion task force, and a mix of special
operations forces deployed in support of U.S. Central Command.  To
enhance force protection throughout the region, additional military
security personnel are also deployed.  Because of the increased
air-defense threat to coalition aircraft, we have also added a robust
personnel recovery capability.

Operation Northern Watch and Operation Southern Watch
The United States and coalition partners continue to enforce the no-fly
zones over Iraq through Operation Northern Watch and Operation Southern
Watch.  Since December 23, following the conclusion of Desert Fox, we
have seen a significant increase in the frequency, intensity, and
coordination of the Iraqi air defense system to counter enforcement of
the no-fly zones.  Since that date, U.S. and coalition aircraft
enforcing the no-fly zones have been subject to multiple anti-aircraft
artillery (AAA) firings, radar illuminations, and over 20 surface-to-air
missile attacks.  Subsequent to Desert Fox, Iraq significantly increased
its air defense presence in both the north and south, but it has since
returned to pre-Desert Fox levels.  Despite the decrease, however, Iraq
has not ceased threatening coalition aircraft.
In response to Iraq's increased and repeated no-fly zone violations, and
in coordination with the Secretary of Defense's advice, our aircrews
have been authorized by me to respond to the increased Iraqi threat.
United States and coalition forces can defend themselves against any
Iraqi threat in carrying out their no-fly zone enforcement mission.  On
over 50 occasions since December, U.S. and coalition forces have engaged
the Iraqi integrated air defense system.  As a consequence, the Iraqi
air defense system has been degraded substantially further since
December.

The Maritime Interception Force
The multinational Maritime Interception Force (MIF), operating in
accordance with Resolution 665 and other relevant resolutions, enforces
U.N. sanctions in the Gulf.  The U.S. Navy is the single largest
component of the MIF, but it is frequently augmented by ships, aircraft,
and other support from Australia, Belgium, Canada, Kuwait, The
Netherlands, New Zealand, the UAE, and the United Kingdom.  Member
states of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) provide logistical support
and shipriders to the MIF and accept vessels diverted for violating U.N.
sanctions against Iraq.  Kuwait was especially helpful providing
significant naval and coast guard assistance.  Additionally, they
accepted over 15 diverted sanctions violators.
Although refined petroleum products leaving Iraq comprise most of the
prohibited traffic, the MIF has intercepted a growing number of ships
smuggling prohibited items into Iraq in violation of U.N. sanctions and
outside the parameters of the humanitarian oil-for-food program.  In
early December, the MIF conducted the latest in a series of periodic
surge operations in the far northern Gulf near the major Iraqi
waterways.  These operations disrupted smuggling in the region.  Kuwait
and the UAE have stepped up their own enforcement efforts.  Although
partially repaired and back on line, damage to the Basra refinery
inflicted during Desert Fox had a significant impact on Iraq's gas and
oil smuggling operations in the Gulf.
In December 1998, Iraq relocated surface-to-surface missile batteries to
the coastal area of the Al Faw Peninsula.  The missiles in question,
with a range of nearly 60 nautical miles, could reach far into the North
Arabian Gulf and posed a serious threat to the MIF.  The deployment of
these missiles to a position from which they could engage coalition
naval forces was carried out in concert with the increased attempts to
shoot down aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones and constituted an
enhancement of Iraq's military capability in southern Iraq.  Coalition
aircraft responded with air strikes to the threat posed by these
missiles and are authorized to continue to do so as necessary.

Chemical Weapons
After Iraq's November 15, 1998, pledge of unconditional cooperation with
weapons inspectors, UNSCOM began to test the Iraqi promise.  In a
November 25 letter, Iraq continued to deny that it ever weaponized VX
nerve agent or produced stabilized VX, despite UNSCOM's publicly stated
confidence in the Edgewood Arsenal Laboratory finding of stabilized VX
components in fragments of Iraqi SCUD missile warheads.  Iraq alleges
that the presence of VX was a deliberate act of tampering with the
samples examined in the United States.
On November 26, Iraq agreed to cooperate with UNSCOM efforts to
determine the disposition of 155mm shells filled with mustard chemical
agent, and UNSCOM agreed to proceed with such an effort when
logistically possible.  Iraq also agreed to cooperate in verifying the
tail assemblies of R-400 bombs, and in determining the precise locations
of pits that had been used for the field storage of special warheads at
Fallujah Forest and the Tigris Canal.
On November 30, the Iraqis failed to meet a deadline to provide various
documents Chairman Butler requested pertaining to Iraq's chemical
weapons program.  Included in this request was the Iraqi Air Force file
of documents found previously by UNSCOM inspectors that details chemical
weapons expended during the Iran-Iraq war.  We understand that UNSCOM
believes the file indicates that Iraq's official declarations to UNSCOM
have greatly overstated the quantities of chemical weapons expended,
which means that at least 6,000 chemical weapons are unaccounted.
In a January 25, 1999, report to the U.N. Security Council President,
UNSCOM identified as a priority chemical weapons disarmament issues: VX,
the 155mm mustard shells; the Iraqi Air Force file of chemical weapons
documents; R-400 bombs filled with CBW (field inspections needed); and
chemical weapons production equipment (field verification is needed for
18 of 20 shipping containers UNSCOM knows were moved together).  On
monitoring, the report identified as priorities the ability to verify
Iraqi compliance at listed facilities and to detect construction of new
dual-use facilities.

Biological Weapons
Iraq has failed to provide a credible explanation for UNSCOM tests that
found anthrax in fragments of seven SCUD missile warheads.  Iraq has
been claiming since 1995 that it put anthrax in only five such warheads,
and had previously denied weaponizing anthrax at all.  Iraq's
explanations to date are far from satisfactory, although it now
acknowledges putting both anthrax and botulinum toxin into some  number
of warheads.
Iraq's biological weapons (BW) program -- including SCUD missile BW
warheads, R-400 BW bombs, drop-tanks to be filled with BW, spray devices
for BW, production of BW agents (anthrax, botulinum toxin, aflatoxin,
and wheat cover smut), and BW agent growth media -- remains the "black
hole" described by Chairman Butler.  Iraq has consistently failed to
provide a credible account of its efforts to produce and weaponize its
BW agents.
During the period November 17 to December 2, 1998, an undeclared Class
II Biosafety Cabinet and some filter presses were discovered; these
items are subject to declarations by Iraq and biological monitoring.
On November 18 and 20, Chairman Butler again asked Iraq's Deputy Prime
Minister for information concerning Iraq's biological weapons programs.
Iraq has supplied none of the information requested.
In the January 25, 1999, report to the U.N. Security Council President,
UNSCOM identified as a priority biological weapons disarmament issue
Iraq's incomplete declarations on "the whole scope of the BW
program."The declarations are important because "Iraq possesses an
industrial capability and knowledge base, through which biological
warfare agents could be produced quickly and in volume."  The report
also identified the importance of monitoring dual-use biological items,
equipment, facilities, research, and acquisition at 250 listed sites.
The effectiveness of monitoring is "proportional to Iraq's cooperation
and transparency, to the number of monitored sites, and to the number of
inspectors."

Long-Range Missiles
Iraq's past practices of (1) refusing to discuss further its system for
concealment of longer range missiles and their components, (2) refusing
to provide credible evidence of its disposition of large quantities of
the unique fuel required for the long-range SCUD missile, and (3)
continuing to test modifications to SA-2 VOLGA surface-to-air missile
components appear intended to enhance Iraq's capability to produce a
surface-to-surface missile of range greater than its permitted range of
150 km.
While UNSCOM believes it can account for 817 of 819 imported Soviet-made
SCUD missiles, Iraq has refused to give UNSCOM a credible accounting of
the indigenous program that produced complete SCUD missiles that were
both successfully test-flown and delivered to the Iraqi Army.
In its January 25, 1999, report to the U.N. Security Council President,
UNSCOM identified the following as priority missile disarmament issues:
50 unaccounted SCUD conventional warheads; 500 tons of SCUD propellants,
the destruction of which has not been verified; 7 Iraqi-produced SCUDs
given to the army, the destruction of which cannot be verified;
truckloads of major components for SCUD production that are missing; the
concealment of BW warheads; and the lack of accounting for VX-filled
war-heads.  The report identified as priorities the capability to
monitor declared activities, leaps in missile technology, and changes to
declared operational missiles.  There are 80 listed missile sites.

Nuclear Weapons
After Iraq unconditionally rescinded its declarations of non-cooperation
on November 15, the IAEA began to test the Iraqi pledge of full
cooperation.  The IAEA Director General Mohammed El-Baradei's December
14 report on Iraqi cooperation stated:  "The Iraqi counterpart has
provided the necessary level of cooperation to enable the
above-enumerated activities [ongoing monitoring] to be completed
efficiently and effectively."  In its 6-month report to the Security
Council on October 7, the IAEA stated that it had a "technically
coherent" view of the Iraqi nuclear program.  At that time, the IAEA
also stated its remaining questions about Iraq's nuclear program can be
dealt with within IAEA's ongoing monitoring and verification (OMV)
effort.  In the IAEA's February 8 report to the U.N. Security Council it
reiterated this position.
Nonetheless, Iraq has not yet supplied information in response to the
Security Council's May 14 Presidential Statement.  This statement noted
that the IAEA continues to have questions and concerns regarding foreign
assistance, abandonment of the program, and the extent of Iraqi progress
in weapons design.  Iraq has also not passed penal legislation
prohibiting nuclear-related activities contrary to Resolution 687.
In a February 8, 1999, report to the U.N. Secretary Council President,
IAEA Director General Mohammed El-Baradei summarized previous IAEA
assessments of Iraq's compliance with its nuclear disarmament and
monitoring obligations.  The report restates that "Iraq has not
fulfilled its obligation to adopt measures and enact penal laws, to
implement and enforce compliance with Iraq's obligations under
Resolutions 687 and 707, other relevant Security Council resolutions and
the IAEA OMV plan, as required under paragraph 34 of that plan."  The
IAEA states that the three areas where questions on Iraq's nuclear
disarmament remain (lack of technical documentation, lack of information
on external assistance to Iraq's clandestine nuclear weapons program,
and lack of information on Iraq's abandonment of its nuclear weapons
program) would not prevent the full implementation of its OMV plan.
The IAEA continues to plan for long-term monitoring and verification
under Resolution 715.  In its February 8 report, the IAEA restated that
monitoring must be "intrusive" and estimated annual monitoring costs
would total nearly $10 million.

Dual-Use Imports
Resolution 1051 established a joint UNSCOM/IAEA unit to monitor Iraq's
imports of allowed dual-use items.  Iraq must notify the unit before it
imports specific items that can be used in both weapons of mass
destruction and civilian applications.  Similarly, U.N. members must
provide timely notification of exports to Iraq of such dual-use items.
Following the withdrawal of UNSCOM and IAEA monitors, there is no
monitoring of dual-use items inside Iraq.  This factor has presented new
challenges for the U.N. Sanctions Committee and is taken into
consideration in the approval process.

The U.N.'s "Oil-for-Food" Program
We continue to support the international community's efforts to provide
for the humanitarian needs of the Iraqi people through the oil-for-food
program.  Transition from phase four to phase five authorized by U.N.
Security Council Resolution 1210) was smooth.  As in phase four, Iraq is
again authorized to sell up to $5.2 billion worth of oil every 180 days.
However, because of a drop in world oil prices, Iraq was only able to
pump and sell approximately $3.1 billion worth of oil during phase four.
Since the first deliveries under oil-for-food began in March 1997, food
worth $2.75 billion, and over $497 million worth of medicine and health
supplies have been delivered to Iraq.
As of January 19, under phase four of the oil-for-food program,
contracts for the purchase of over $2.3 billion worth of humanitarian
goods for the Iraqi people have been presented to the U.N. Office of the
Iraq Program for review by the Sanctions Committee; of these, contracts
worth over $1.6 billion have been approved; most of the remaining
contracts are being processed by the Office of the Iraq Program.  As of
February 4, the United States had approved 584 contracts in phase four
and had placed 28 on hold pending clarification of questions about the
proposed contracts.
With regard to funds set aside for imports of parts and equipment to
increase oil exports, as of February 4, 333 contracts with a total value
of nearly $178 million have been approved; 94 contracts are on hold. In
January, the United States released a number of holds on oil spare parts
contracts.  Up to $300 million had been set aside in phase four of the
oil-for-food program to pay for spare parts and equipment to increase
Iraqi oil exports and thus increase available humanitarian funding.  The
United States had requested holds on contracts that did not directly
boost oil exports.  As the current phase of oil-for-food again sets
aside $300 million for this purpose, the United States decided to remove
holds on lower priority contracts.
The Security Council met in January to discuss the humanitarian
situation in Iraq.  The United States supported an examination of the
current situation and exploration of ways to improve the humanitarian
situation, particularly with regard to vulnerable groups such as
children under age five, and pregnant and nursing women.  The United
States has expressed its support for lifting the cap on Iraqi oil
exports under the oil-for-food program, and has suggested some
streamlining of approval of food and medicine contracts in the U.N.
Sanctions Committee.
Three assessment panels are being formed to look at Iraqi disarmament,
the humanitarian situation in Iraq, and Iraq's obligations regarding
Kuwait.  The panels are expected to complete their work by the middle of
April.
Resolution 1210 maintains a separate oil-for-food program for northern
Iraq, administered directly by the United Nations in consultation with
the local population.  This program, which the United States strongly
supports, receives 13 to 15 percent of the funds generated under the
oil-for-food program.  The separate northern program was established
because of the Baghdad regime's proven disregard for the humanitarian
needs of the Kurdish, Assyrian, and Turkomen minorities of northern
Iraq, and its readiness to apply the most brutal forms of repression
against them.  In northern Iraq, where Baghdad does not exercise
control, the oil-for-food program has been able to operate relatively
effectively.  The Kurdish factions are setting aside their differences
to work together so that Resolution 1210 is implemented as efficiently
as possible.
The United Nations is required to monitor carefully implementation of
all aspects of the oil-for-food program.  The current phase marked by
Resolution 1210 anticipates infrastructure repairs in areas such as oil
export capacity, generation of electricity, and water purification.  The
U.N. monitoring regime is presented with increasing challenges, as
UNSCOM monitors are no longer in Iraq.
Humanitarian programs such as oil-for-food have steadily improved the
life of the average Iraqi living under sanctions (who, for example, now
receives a ration basket providing over 2,000 calories per day, a
significant improvement in nutrition since the program began) while
denying Saddam Hussein control over oil revenues.  We will continue to
work with the U.N. Secretariat, the Security Council, and others in the
international community to ensure that the humanitarian needs of the
Iraqi people are met while denying any political or economic benefits to
the Baghdad regime.

Northern Iraq:  Kurdish Reconciliation
Since their ground-breaking meeting with Secretary Albright in
September, Massoud Barzani, President of the Kurdistan Democratic Party
(KDP), and Jalal Talabani, Chairman of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan
(PUK), have met three times to continue their work towards full
reconciliation.  Both parties have condemned internal fighting, pledged
to refrain from violence in settling their differences, and resolved to
eliminate terrorism by establishing stronger safeguards for Iraq's
borders.  Our deep concern for the safety, security, and economic
well-being of Iraqi Kurds, Shias, Sunnis, and others who have been
subject to brutal attacks by the Baghdad regime remains a primary focus
of our Iraq policy.
On November 4, the Governments of Turkey and the United Kingdom joined
us in recognizing and welcoming the cooperative achievement of Mr.
Barzani and Mr. Talabani.  The three states reiterated the importance of
preserving the unity and territorial integrity of Iraq and noted, with
pleasure, the prominence the KDP and PUK have accorded this principle.
We also welcomed the commitment by the KDP and PUK to deny sanctuary to
the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), to eliminate all PKK bases from the
region, and to safeguard the Turkish border.  The parties believe that
key decisions on Iraq's future should be made by all the Iraqi people
together at an appropriate time and in a regular political process.
Their work to achieve the principles embodied in the Ankara Statements
are thus meant to implement a framework of regional administration until
a united, pluralistic, and democratic Iraq is achieved.
On January 8, the two leaders met without recourse to U.S., U.K., or
Turkish interlocutors, in Salahidin in northern Iraq.  They reiterated
their determination to implement the September agreement, made concrete
progress on key issues of revenue sharing and closing down PKK bases,
and agreed to stay in close contact.
The United States is committed to ensuring that international aid
continues to reach the north, that the human rights of the Kurds and
northern Iraq minority groups, such as the Turkomen, Assyrians, Yezedis,
and others are respected, and that the no-fly-zone enforced by Operation
Northern Watch is observed.  The United States will decide how and when
to respond should Baghdad's actions pose an increased threat to Iraq's
neighbors, to regional security, to vital U.S. interests, and to the
Iraqi people, including those in the north.

The Human Rights Situation in Iraq
The human rights situation throughout Iraq continues to be a cause for
grave concern.  As I reported November 5, the Iraqi army has stepped up
repressive operations against the Shia in the south.  In mid-November,
we received unconfirmed reports from the Iraqi opposition that 150
persons had been executed at Amara, with three bodies left hanging on
the city's main bridge over the Tigris River as a warning to those who
oppose the regime.  An additional 172 persons, some detained since 1991,
were reported to have been summarily executed in Abu Gharaib and
Radwaniya prisons; as in prior waves of summary prison killings, bodies
showing clear signs of torture were reportedly returned to their
families.  Reports reached us in December that a mass grave containing
at least 25 bodies was found near the Khoraisan River in Diyala
province, east of Baghdad.
The Iraqi government continues to work toward the destruction of the
Marsh Arabs' way of life and the unique ecology of the southern marshes.
In the past 2 months, 7 more villages were reportedly destroyed on the
margins of the marshes, with irrigation water cut off and the vegetation
cut down and burned.  Those who could not flee to the interior of the
marshes -- particularly the old, infirm, women, and children -- were
said to have been taken hostage by regime forces.
On February 19, the Shia Grand Ayatollah Mohammed al-Sadr was murdered
in Iraq along with several of his relatives.  Opposition sources
indicate this murder was the work of the Saddam regime.  The regime also
violently suppressed demonstrations that followed in Baghdad and other
cities opposing the murder.
In the north, outside the Kurdish-controlled areas, the government
continues the forced expulsion of ethnic Kurds and Turkomen from Kirkuk
and other cities.  In recent months, hundreds of families have
reportedly been expelled from Kirkuk with seven new Arab settlements
created on land seized from the Kurds.  Reports from the
Kurdish-controlled areas where the displaced persons are received
indicate that they are forced to leave behind almost all of their
personal property.  Due to a shortage of  housing, they are still living
in temporary shelters.
A conference on the research and treatment of victims of chemical and
biological weapons attacks in northern Iraq, organized by the Washington
Kurdish Institute and sponsored by the Department of State was held on
November 18-19, 1998.  The conference focused on the long-range effects
of the Iraqi chemical attack on the village of Halabja, where nearly
5,000 persons were killed in 1988. According to panelists, the hideous
combination of mustard gas, tabun, sarin, VX, tear gas, and possibly
aflatoxin that the Iraqi military used in the attack has resulted in
dramatically increased rates of cancer, respiratory problems, heart
failure, infertility, miscarriages, and possibly genetic damage in the
surviving population.
On December 1, the London-based INDICT organization announced that 12
senior Iraqi officials -- including Saddam Hussein, his sons Uday and
Qusay, his half-brother Barzan al-Tikriti, Vice President Taha Yasin
Ramadan, and Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz -- would be the focus of
its campaign for prosecution by an international tribunal.
The Iraqi government continues to stall and obfuscate attempts to
account for more than 600 Kuwaitis and third-country nationals who
disappeared at the hands of Iraqi authorities during or after the
occupation of Kuwait, despite a Security Council resolution requiring it
to do so.  Baghdad still refuses to allow independent human rights
monitors to enter Iraq, despite repeated requests by U.N. Special
Rapporteur for Iraq, Max Van der Stoel.  The U.N. Human Rights
Commission has issued a strong condemnation of the "all-pervasive
repression and oppression" of the Iraqi government.

The Iraqi Opposition
We are deepening our engagement with the forces of change in Iraq,
helping Iraqis inside and outside Iraq become a more effective voice for
the aspirations of the people.  We will work toward the day when Iraq
has a government worthy of its people -- a government prepared to live
in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of
its citizens, rather than represses them.  On October 31, I signed into
law the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998.  It provides significant new
discretionary authorities to assist the opposition in its struggle
against the regime.  On January 19, I submitted to the Congress a
notification of my intent to designate certain groups under the Act; I
designated those groups on February 4.  The assessment of additional
groups that may qualify for assistance under the Act is progressing.
Also on October 31, Radio Free Iraq began operations.  Its broadcasts
are being hear! d in Iraq and its message profoundly displeases the
regime.
On November 17, Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs,
Martin Indyk, met with 17 London-based representatives of the Iraqi
opposition.  He heard the full range of views of the parties present,
and outlined the new U.S. policy toward the opposition.  Indyk urged
them to work together toward the common purpose of a new government in
Baghdad; the United States will help, but the opposition itself must
take the lead.  He urged them to do all they could to get a message to
the people of Iraq that there is an alternative to Saddam Hussein,
adding that the United States will support the campaign to indict Saddam
as a war criminal.
Former Iraqi Foreign Minister Adnan Pachachi outlined a number of agreed
points to Indyk.  The group:  1) welcomed the new U.S. policy toward the
opposition; 2) will work to create a democratic government in Iraq; 3)
will redouble efforts to get all groups to work together; 4) wants the
opposition to serve as an interlocutor for the Iraqi people with the
international community; and 5) expressed thanks for the U.S. role in
the recent Kurdish reconciliation.
On January 21, Secretary of State Albright announced the appointment of
Frank Ricciardone as Special Representative for Transition in Iraq
(SRTI).  He will abbreviate his current tour as Deputy Chief of Mission
in Ankara, and take up his new responsibilities in early March.  He
traveled with the Secretary of State to London, Riyadh, and Cairo in
late January to discuss U.S. policy on this issue.  He outlined U.S.
intentions to help Iraq resume its rightful place in the region -- a
goal the United States believes can only be achieved under new Iraqi
leadership.  He emphasized U.S. desire to work with Iraqis -- who alone
can make this happen -- inside Iraq and outside Iraq, as well as with
Iraq's neighbors who share the same objectives.
There are, of course, other important elements of U.S. policy.  These
include the maintenance of Security Council support for efforts to
eliminate Iraq's prohibited weapons and missile programs, and economic
sanctions that continue to deny the regime the means to reconstitute
those threats to international peace and security.  United States
support for the Iraqi opposition will be carried out consistent with
those policy objectives as well.  Similarly, U.S. support must be
attuned to what Iraqis can effectively make use of as it develops over
time.

The United Nations Compensation Commission
The United Nations Compensation Commission (UNCC), established pursuant
to Resolutions 687, 692, and 1210, continues to resolve claims against
Iraq arising from Iraq's unlawful invasion and occupation of Kuwait. The
UNCC has issued over 1.3 million awards worth approximately $7 billion.
Thirty percent of the proceeds from the oil sales permitted by Security
Council resolutions have been allocated to the Compensation Fund to pay
awards and to finance operations of the UNCC.  Pursuant to decisions of
the UNCC Governing Council, certain small claims are to receive initial
payments of $2,500 toward the amounts approved on those claims before
large claims of individuals and claims of corporations and governments
may share in the funds available for claims payments.  As money from
Iraqi oil sales is deposited in the Compensation Fund the UNCC makes
these initial $2,500 payments on eligible claims in the order in which
those cla! ims were approved by the UNCC.  To date, the United States
Government has received funds from the UNCC for initial installment
payments on approximately 1435 claims of U.S. claimants.

Conclusion
Iraq remains a serious threat to international peace and security.  I
remain determined to see Iraq comply fully with all of its obligations
under Security Council resolutions.  The United States looks forward to
the day when Iraq rejoins the family of nations as a responsible and
law-abiding member.  I appreciate the support of the Congress for our
efforts and shall continue to keep the Congress informed about this
important issue.
Sincerely,
 

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-1056128845-1059156123=:40265-- From sdredge@yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 19:31:23 2003 From: sdredge@yahoo.com (Scott Dredge) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Pres. Speech To Congress On IRAQs WMD In-Reply-To: <20030725180203.41048.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030725183123.60915.qmail@web10507.mail.yahoo.com> Which president's speech is this? Clinton, Bush, or other? -Scott --- John Harrell wrote: > Dear Mr. Speaker: (Mr. President:) > Consistent with the Authorization for Use of > Military Force Against Iraq > Resolution (Public Law 102-1) and as part of my > effort to keep the > Congress fully informed, I am reporting on the > status of efforts to > obtain Iraq's compliance with the resolutions > adopted by the United > Nations Security Council (UNSC). ... > > Overview > As stated in my December 18 report, on December 16, > ... > The decision to use force was made after U.N. > Special Commission > (UNSCOM) Executive Chairman Richard Butler reported > to the U.N. > Secretary General on December 14, that Iraq was not > cooperating fully > with the Commission and that it was "not able to > conduct the substantive > disarmament work mandated to it by the Security > Council." > The build-up to the current crisis began on August 5 > when the Iraqi > government suspended cooperation with UNSCOM and the > International > Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), except on a > limited-range of monitoring > activities. On October 31, Iraq announced that it > was ceasing all > cooperation with UNSCOM. In response to this > decision, the Security > Council on November 5 unanimously adopted Resolution > 1205, which > condemned Iraq's decision as a "flagrant violation" > of the Gulf War > cease-fire Resolution 687 and other relevant > resolutions. Resolution > 1205 also demanded that Iraq immediately rescind > both its October 31 > decision and its decision of August 5. This came > after the passage on > March 3, 1998, of Resolution 1154, warning Iraq that > the "severest > consequences" would result from Iraq's failure to > cooperate with the > implementation of Resolution 687. > Iraq ignored the Security Council's demands until > November 14, when U.S. > and British forces prepared to launch air strikes on > Iraq. Baghdad > initially tried to impose unacceptable conditions on > its offer of > resumption of cooperation; however, the United > States and Great Britain > insisted on strict compliance with all relevant > Security Council > resolutions. > Subsequently, Iraq agreed in writing in letters to > the U.N. Secretary > General to rescind its August 5 and October 31 > decisions and to resume > full cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA in > accordance with Security > Council resolutions. Iraq informed the Security > Council on November 14 > that it was the "clear and unconditional decision of > the Iraqi > government to resume cooperation with UNSCOM and the > IAEA." > On November 15, the Security Council issued a > statement in which it > stressed that Iraq's commitment "needs to be > established by > unconditional and sustained cooperation with the > Special Commission and > the IAEA in exercising the full range of their > activities provided for > in their mandates." > UNSCOM and the IAEA resumed their full range of > activities on November > 17, but Iraq repeatedly violated its commitment of > cooperation. As > Chairman Butler's report of December 14 details, > Iraq has, over the > course of the last 8 years, refused to provide the > key documents and > critical explanations about its prohibited weapons > programs in response > to UNSCOM's outstanding requests. It refused to > allow removal of > missile engine components, denied access to missile > test data, > restricted photography of bombs, and endangered the > safety of inspectors > by aggressively maneuvering a helicopter near them. > Iraq failed to > provide requested access to archives and effectively > blocked UNSCOM from > visiting a site on November 25. > On December 4 and again on December 11, Iraq further > restricted UNSCOM's > activities by asserting that certain teams could not > inspect on Fridays, > the Muslim sabbath, despite 7 years of doing so and > the fact that other > inspection teams' activities were not restricted on > Fridays. Iraq > blocked access to offices of the ruling Ba'ath Party > on December 9, > which UNSCOM held "solid evidence" contained > prohibited materials. Iraq > routinely removed documents from facilities prior to > inspection, and > initiated new forms of restrictions on UNSCOM's > work. We also have > information that Iraq ordered the military to > destroy WMD-related > documents in anticipation of the UNSCOM inspections. > Iraq's actions were a material breach of the Gulf > War cease-fire > resolution (UNSC Resolution 687), the February 23, > 1998, Annan-Aziz > Memorandum of Understanding, and Iraq's November 14 > commitment to the > Security Council. The threat to the region posed by > Iraq's refusal to > cooperate unconditionally with UNSCOM, and the > consequent inability of > UNSCOM to carry out the responsibilities the > Security Council entrusted > to it, could not be tolerated. These circumstances > led the United > States and the United Kingdom to use military force > to degrade Iraq's > capacity to threaten its neighbors through the > development of WMD and > long-range delivery systems. During Desert Fox, key > WMD sites and the > facilities of the organizations that conceal them, > as well as important > missile repair facilities and surface-to-air missile > sites, were > attacked. Operation Desert Fox degraded Saddam's > ability to threaten > his neighbors militarily. > UNSCOM and IAEA inspectors withdrew from Iraq on > December 15 when > Chairman Butler reported that inspectors were not > able to conduct the > substantive disarmament work required of UNSCOM by > the Security Council. > The United States continues to support UNSCOM and > the IAEA as the agreed > mechanisms for Iraq to demonstrate its compliance > with UNSC resolutions > concerning disarmament. > Since December 18, the Security Council has > discussed next steps on > Iraq. It decided on January 30 to establish three > assessment panels to > address disarmament issues, humanitarian issues, and > Kuwait-related > issues. The panels, under the chairmanship of the > Brazilian Ambassador > to the United Nations, are due to complete their > reviews by April 15. > The United States also continues to support the > international > community's efforts to provide for the humanitarian > needs of the Iraqi > people through the "oil-for-food" program. On > November 24, 1998, the > Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 1210 > establishing a new > 6-month phase (phase five) of the oil-for-food > program (phase four ended > November 25). In January, the United States > announced its support for > lifting the ceiling on oil sales under the > oil-for-food program so that > Iraqi civilian humanitarian needs can better be met. > As long as Saddam Hussein remains in power, he > represents a threat to > the well-being of his people, the peace of the > region, and the security > of the world. We will continue to contain the > threat he poses, but over > the long term the best way to address that threat is > through a new > government in Baghdad. To that end, we -- working > with the Congress -- > are deepening our engagement with the forces for > change in Iraq to help > make the opposition a more effective voice for the > aspirations of the > Iraqi people. Our efforts are discussed in more > detail below. > > === message truncated === From jschutz@moscow.com Fri Jul 25 19:40:44 2003 From: jschutz@moscow.com (Jerry L. Schutz) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:40:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] New Coffee House in Moscow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C352A1.9557AFF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit of course I'm sure he meant seize, but it sure made me chuckle. Jerry -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Cjsnightclub@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:29 AM Subject: [Vision2020] New Coffee House in Moscow? ... Cease the opportunity. Drop me an email - Phil --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 7/18/2003 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C352A1.9557AFF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
of=20 course I'm sure he meant seize, but it sure made me = chuckle.
 
Jerry
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of=20 Cjsnightclub@aol.com
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:29=20 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] New Coffee House in=20 Moscow?

 ...  Cease the opportunity.=20

Drop me an email -=20 Phil



------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C352A1.9557AFF0-- From timlohr@yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 19:46:37 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] POLITICAL PREDICTIONS-(was ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030725184637.84593.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Donavan, Well, your resume actually looks pretty good in two out of the three areas you mention. Making people mad is of course a well-known pre-requisite to accomplishing anything. Or at least that's what this old man I used to go fishing with told me. Political predictions are a great skill, if for no other reason than the fact that there are some really cheap flights to Nevada just now. You can get some excellent odds on long-range predictions. Just don't wait too long. The "standing up for the rights of the disadvantaged" one is probably not as impressive. As you know that's already a crowded multi-billion dollar industry in this country. Oh well, there's always room for one more I guess. I enjoyed reading your prognostications. But I've got some squabbles with a few of them. 1. Sharpton/Braun: You're right of course that the Algore/Clinton DLC Democrats put Mosely-Braun in to blunt Sharpton's appeal. They're terrified of Al, but I don't think it's going to work. Al has national appeal among Blacks but Braun, as a defeated Senator is not nearly as well-known, particularly not in the South. I never meant to imply that I thought Sharpton had a chance to win, but I think he'll get quite a few delegates starting in SC and continuing on to SUPER TUESDAY when a number of Southern states vote. ------So the chore for the DLC types will be to keep Al off primetime--where the average voter won't dig him--while making it look as if they still "embrace" him and his supporters. That should be an interesting squirm fest to observe. 2. Kucinich: I'm thinking that the only thing Dennis will do if he ever gets going will be to take a few points from Dean. He's completely different from the rest of these guys policy wise in ways that should appeal to labor voters, but I think the labor elite will be afraid to support him. I've heard the Green party thing too, but I believe Nader will run with Cynthia McKinney. Kucinich will probably just go back and run for re-election to the House. 3. Gephardt: I think you underestimate the importance of Iowa to what happens in NH.(And by the way, Dick has been in NH for years as well.) IF Dick Gephardt can kick it in Iowa--and he will have enough labor support in the larger towns to make sure his supporters get out-- and get a momentum surge from that, he could easily finish a strong second in NH with a last minute surge. That way, he could win the "expectations game" the press always plays and eliminate either Kerry or Dean and seriously weaken the other one right there. After that, he'd still have hard battles in the South with Edwards and etc. but he'd be off to an awesome start. It could happen. And by the way, I saw the other day that his fundraising in Iowa is going well. I believe he'd be the strongest Demo. in the general because he would be very strong in the upper midwest(MI, Wisc.,MN) because of his union support and career long-focus on economic issues. And Bush is going to need some of those states with Gephardt taking Missouri away from him. 4. Kerry and Dean: I agree Kerry would be stronger in the general, but Dean has cost him a lot of support. I believe his Kennedy-posing(he wants to be referred to as John F. Kerry now) and his constant attempts to cash in on his veteran status will wear thin and be seen as phony by voters. Also, Mass. liberal candidates are regarded as parodies or pariahs in the south---and Kerry would probably need to pick up either GA or NC in addition to Fla. I totally disagree with you that Dean could win a general election. His record on calling for gay "civil unions" won't help. The GOP is going to use that big time in the general election. Most voters don't favor it--don't forget that in CA gay marriage lost big time statewide and by even larger margins among hispanics. And Hispanic voters are crucial in New Mexico, Nevada, and Colorado--all states that are competitive in national elections. I'm not sure if it would mean a loss of CA for the Demos. but that would be within the realm of possibility if Davis is recalled there and a popular GOP governor goes into office and is somewhat successful. I'm interested in the Dean skeletons--got a website for me? 4. Clark is, in my opinion running for VP as someone voters would take seriously on military and foreign issues. However, there are quite a few questions about his command of NATO forces that, when they're brought up will turn the Demo. liberals right off. For example, it has been reported that the intelligence about genocidal slaughter of muslims was way off. And also there's the problem that the KLA is now known to have been engaged in heroin smuggling. The fruits of this enterprise were then funneled to groups affiliated with Al Qaida. And the KLA are the folks we were helping over there. Once Clark sees the light of day politically and gets some real examination by the media and his opponents, he won't be able to handle it and his support will evaporate. 5. You could be right about Hillary, but I really believe she's too calculating to risk what you mention. I think she'd much rather stay out of it in 04 for a clear shot in four years. TL --- Donovan Arnold wrote: > Tim writes: > > "FINALLY! Now this is what I wanted out of > what was > >becoming a tiresome discussion--some genuine > political > >analysis. I was starting to think everyone on here > was > >too defensive about their precious Democrat party > to > >be able to discuss what in the heck they're doing." > > Tim there is only three things I do very well. > 1) Make people mad > 2) Stand up for the rights of the disadvantaged > 3) Political strategy--(I know this contradicts > number one). > > The third is my second favorite. > > I have never been that off in my political > predictions. Granted, I am not > perfect, but for the most part I have a good batting > average on political > predictions. > > Let us look at each one that you brought up Tim. > > Let us start at the bottom and work up. > > Mosley-Braun is the election only for one reason, > she is planted to steal > votes from Al Sharpton > > Sharpton is the election to build up his political > base and standing in the > Black community. Yes he can pick up a few votes and > delegates around the > South. However, he is doing this only so he can > speak at the Democratic > convention and raise issues facing minorities. There > is not any other > candidate that I like better on the issues than > Sharpton. But he doesn't > stand a chance. Braun keeps him from picking up more > delegates in the > convention and lessens his ability to choose a > candidate that can't win the > general election. His ability to be effective may be > cut short if he > continues to fail to generate enough funds to even > make it to Southern > Primaries. > > Kucinich has a hidden agenda. He can't win the > nomination, and he certainly > can't win the general election. He probably could > not even carry his state > at this point if he was a VP pick. But his high > media attention does give > him good name recognition. He could be using that > for another reason, such > as fighting for the Democratic nomination for US > Senate to defeat Senator > Voinovich who is showing weakness. He may need that > name recognition to > defeat Fingerhut and Jerry Springer for the > nomination. Others think he is > considering a nomination by the Green Party and > running in states where the > democratic nominee can't win anyway. > > Graham, is not a serious contender. He is only > looked at as a VP candidate > because he could help with carrying Florida. He is > only barely placing over > Kucinich in the polls and money. Frankly, he is > boring and not that > appealing. > > > Edwards, I don't think he is taken seriously. He > can't win because people > that even like him know that he is not experienced > enough to be President of > the United States. He is also a trial lawyer, not a > popular occupation > nowadays. He could be picked as a VP by Lieberman to > compliment the ticket > and bring in the 11 electoral votes needed in > addition to the 260 electoral > votes the Democrats pretty much already have giving > them 271 electoral > votes. > > > Gephardt, doesn't have a chance. He can sway who > gets the nomination. He is > only doing well in Iowa because he has campaigned > there since 1986 and they > owe him big time for all the legislation he pushed > through for the farmers > and blue collar labor unions. He is from Missouri > and is often called Iowa's > fifth Representative(there is not 5th district, but > he does just as much for > them) If Gephardt places any lower than a strong > first place he is done > right there. New Hampshire will kill him, he will > place probably 4th or > fifth there. If he gets lots of attention, he might > place fourth. He is > known as a great fundraiser for the Democratic party > and is not doing that > well, a strong sign of weakness in support. > > Kerry is where we start to see someone that can look > and act like a > President. He is has a record that matches most past > presidential candidates > and Presidents. His ability to be a serious > contender ends or begins on in > the New Hampshire Primary. If he places first in the > Primary over Howard > Dean he is in the race for a while and could clinch > the nomination. He would > do much better than Dean in the General election. > However, if he places a > distant second or third even in the NH primary > people will stop supporting > him and his funds will dry up quick. He probably > could get really nasty with > Dean, but this would most likely benefit other > candidates besides him for > going negative even though it would prevent Dean the > nomination. > > Lieberman, has a good chance in the General > election. Most national polls > show him ahead of Dean and Kerry. He is also favored > by the DLC and DNC over > Dean and Kerry. He unfortunately is not ranking well > in Iowa and New > Hampshire. His lack of media attention, and large > number of potential voters > taking a "wait and see" attitude is hurting him. He > has huge name > recognition nationally because he was Al Gore's > running mate. His base > support is in "right of center" Democrats and > independents. This is not good > for the Democratic nomination but is good if he > should win. He is not an > exciting man, and may be weeded out with the pack as > he fails to produce > results in Iowa and New Hampshire. The Democratic > Party leaders are trying > to prevent this because he is a viable option for a > win in the General > election. > > Dean represents a serious dilemma for those that > know better. He has the > ability to get the nomination, he also has the > ability to defeat Bush in the > electoral college in the general election. What he > also has the ability to > destroy the Democratic Party and bury it deep so > nobody can bring it back > for the next eight to twenty years. He appeals to > the most Democrats but > none on the right of center. If Dean did win the > nomination and even if he > won the election, he would cost US House and Senate > Seats all across the > nation. This would put the Democratic party as a > small minority in the two > houses. In addition, I think that Dean would lose > the General election. Bush > and his people are not going to play nice with Dean. > Dean has a huge closet > full of skeletons that will brought out and shown to > the public. If things > get tuff for Bush he can do three things. Have his > brother instruct the > state legislature in Florida to throw out the > popular vote in Florida and > cast the electoral vote for him (unfair but > legal)Second, he can drop Cheney > from the ticket, put him somewhere else in the > administration, and choose > Tom Ridge, taking Pennsylvania. Impossible for Dean > to overcome a 23 > electoral vote lose. Third, Cheney can instruct the > NEW CIA director to > fabricate evidence of WMD in Iraqi that showed a > serious threat to the > security of the United States and produce *fake* > documents that show that > Saddam was working with Bin Laudin to unleash > chemical and biological > weapons on US cities. This would discredit Dean > because his stance was that > we should not enter war with Iraqi because it was > not a threat and show > weapons of mass destruction. You are correct that > most the people that > support Dean would still do so even if he molested a > child and it was on > video tape. However, this fabricated evidence will > be enough to cost Dean > one state and cost him the election. > > That is why I pick General Wesley Clark. He has more > brains than the other > candidates. He is better looking, is an outsider, > and can wipe Bush on > issues of National Security, foreign policy, and > economics in a live debate. > He speaks well and is able to keep his cool. Bush > will does not speak well > and relies on his advisors to keep him up to date on > the security issues and > foreign policy issues. The economy is worse than > 2000 and Clark use to work > in the White House under Ford on in the Office of > Budget and Management. So > I think Bush will look very inferior to Clark on the > national stage, and > Bush will mess up eventually. His tricks with the > WMD, switching running > mates, or stealing Florida will not work because he > opposed the war for > different sound reasons and can win without Florida > or Pennsylvania. So Bush > would be toast. The problem is can Clark win the > Democratic nomination? I > don't know, to many Republicans that back him anger > Democrats which > threatens efforts to get him the nomination. > Republicans for Clark want him > to tout his positions on the right, which will not > win the Democratic > nomination. Democrats want him because of his > stances on domestic issues > that fit their beliefs, Republicans want him because > he is strong on > national security and foreign policy. So if the two > can get along, I think > Clark can win the nomination. If they can't Clark > will look wobbly on the > issues and the Democrats will bury him at the > Nomination and choose someone > else like Dean, Kerry, or Lieberman. > > > Other candidates like Joe Biden, if they enter, will > lose. My hope is that > if Clark doesn't enter the race that Hillary Clinton > will and steal the > nomination from Dean, lose to Bush, pick up Senate > and House Seats and put > us in a position to win in 2008. Even though I am a > Democrat, I would not > vote for Dean or Bush. No way! I will write in Clark > or cast a vote for a > third party candidate like Nader. Not that my vote > counts anyway in Idaho. > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > >To: Donovan Arnold > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat > on Iraq > >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:47:04 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Donovan, > > FINALLY! Now this is what I wanted out of what > was > >becoming a tiresome discussion--some genuine > political > >analysis. I was starting to think everyone on here > was > >too defensive about their precious Democrat party > to > >be able to discuss what in the heck they're doing. > > > > I think you've made some darned good points. > But > >what about Gephardt? You think he's not in the > picture > >at all? The only reason I do is because he's > >apparently got a good start in Iowa for those > >ridiculous caucuses that the press always puts so > much > >stock in. I think he might get off to a good start > at > >least, and possibly after a victory in Iowa become > a > >more moderate, labor-backed alternative to Kerry > and > >Dean in their almost home turf of New Hampshire. > So, > >if Dean and Kerry split the more liberal votes, > >Gephardt could do well there. > > > > I'm not sure if I agree with you or not about > >whether Dean fades if WMD's are found. You're > right, > >of course, that he's appealing to the more liberal > >wing by criticizing Bush on foreign policy but I > >believe that his support is pretty deep. In other > >words, the people that DO support him are true > >believers who won't be swayed. Remember, we're > talking > >Demo primary voters here, not the general election. > >I'm sure they'll be forgiving about criticism of > Bush > >for any reason. Dean will of course be a weak > >candidate in the Gen. Election, but so will Bush, > and > >somebody's got to win, right? > > > > AS for Lieberman, I don't think he's going > anywhere > >because most people just can't visualize the guy as > >president. Edwards might just catch on yet. But I > >think he needs to do it pretty quick if he's going > to > >start getting the money he's going to need from any > >sector of big contributors other than his fellow > trial > >lawyers. > > > > Personally, I believe one of the under reported > >aspects of this primary race is the effect Al > Sharpton > >will have. Of course it won't be much in Iowa or NH > >where there are fewer minority voters. But when the > >race moves to South Carolina and other Southern > states > >where blacks make up a very large percentage of > Demo > >primary voters, I think Ole Al will pick up quite a > >few delegates. Jesse Jackson sure did. Then it > will > >be interesting to watch the Demo bigwigs trying to > >shut Sharpton up (let's face it the guy DOES come > up > >with some interesting rants now and then) while at > the > >same time keeping black voters on their side. That > >might be a tough one. > > > > TL > > > >--- Donovan Arnold > wrote: > > > Tim, > > > > > > I can't believe you don't see why Clinton said > that. > > > The Democratic Party is > > > divided. The DLC and DNC want Lieberman and > Edwards > > > to win. The left wing of > > > the party is fueled by anger and want Dean. A > few > > > others want Kerry because > > > he is more moderate and served in the military. > The > > > Uranium words were > > > giving Dean and Kerry the most traction. > Clinton's > > > words just pulled the > > > traction and momentum right out from underneath > Dean > > > and Kerry moving > > > Lieberman and Edwards into a better position. If > WMD > > > are found, Dean falls > > > on his face and Kerry fades away. I have a hunch > > > that there will be some > > > weapons of mass destruction found, or planted, > in > > > the next 6 months. Clinton > > > is saving the face of the Democratic Party in > that > > > event. I think it is > > > smart. God help us if we have to choose between > Bush > > > and Dean in 2004. We > > > might as well concede the 50 colonies back to > the > > > British and say this > > > experiment is over in that event. Choosing > between > > > a man who lies and is > > > incompetent and a man who does not tell the > truth > > > and is not competent, is > > > not much of a choice if you ask most people. > > > I support General Wesley Clark for President, no > > > matter what! He has more > > > qualifications than anyone in the ring now. He > is a > > > "to the slightly left" > > > Ronald Reagan. > > > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > > > >To: Sunil Ramalingam > > > > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com > > > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National > Democrat > > > on Iraq > > > >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:14:47 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > > > >Sunil, > > > > I CAN'T let go of the Democrats--at least > the > > > >national ones. They're so-o-o arrogantly > > > condescending > > > >towards all sorts of behavior except when one > of > > > their > > > >own does it. Then it's fine! > > > > Kerry is going around criticizing W for > doing > > > >exactly what he himself has recommended. That's > the > > > >sort of hypocrisy that needs to be exposed over > and > > > >over. > > > > As for Bill Clinton's groin--even though > he > > > has > > > >"opened the door" on that one(sorry, couldn't > > > >resist)--I only brought him(and not his groin) > up > > > this > > > >last time to speculate on why he would defend > GW at > > > >the exact moment when his partymates seem to be > > > making > > > >some hay over the W's uranium thingy. That > seemed a > > > >little puzzling to most on here. They couldn't > > > answer > > > >why he'd do it, and neither can I. > > > > > > > > In any case, Clinton's comments are > directly > > > >relevant to what you write that you consider > > > important > > > >below. Apparently ole Bill HAS looked at what W > has > > > >and is doing and he doesn't see a whole lot > wrong > > > with > > > >it. > > > > > > > > The politics of all this is interesting, > but as > > > for > > > >my personal view on the buildup to the war. I > don't > > > >believe it has made the country more secure > against > > > >possible terrorist attacks. I'd much rather > have > > > seen > > > >these resources and in some cases manpower > devoted > > > to > > > >dramatically stepped up efforts at finding out > just > > > >what and who is coming into our ports, across > our > > > own > > > >borders, living in our cities etc. > > > > As for the W administration's honesty. I > > > believe > > > >his administration is run by the neocons, many > of > > > whom > > > >have written for years about how much they > wanted > > > to > > > >go to war with Iraq. The WMD idea was a way to > > > justify > > > >what they wanted to do already. But again, so > > > >apparently did many of the Demos. including > many of > > > >the ones travelling around to advance > themselves by > > > >criticizing W right now. > > > > TL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- Sunil Ramalingam > > > > >wrote: > > > > > Of course Kerry is trying to have it both > ways. > > > But > > > > > it's silly to pretend the Democrats are some > > > sort of > > > > > monolithic, single-minded party. If they > were, > > > > > they'd be in power right now. > > > > > > > > > > Tim, let go of the Democrats long enough to > > > answer > > > > > this question: Do you think the Bush > > > Administration > > > > > has been honest, either in its buildup > towards > > > war, > > > > > or since that time, in presenting its > rationales > > > for > > > > > the invasion of Iraq? Since they're in > charge > > > now, > > > > > wouldn't you agree that it might be more > > > important > > > > > to look at what they're doing, rather than > > > focusing > > > > > on Bill Clinton's groin? I for one would > rather > > > > > look elsewhere, and at items with more > > > significance. > > > > > > > > > > Sunil Ramalingam > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Tim Lohrmann > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:52 PM > > > > > To: thansen@moscow.com > > > > > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National > > > Democrat > > > > > on Iraq > > > > > > > > > > Tom, > > > > > Do the politics of the messenger mean > that > > > Kerry > > > > > didn't make the statement? > > > > > TL > > > > > > > > > > --- Tom Hansen wrote: > > > > > > Of course, one must realize that John > McCaslin > > > > > > stands slightly to the right > > > > > > of Rush Limbaugh as relfected in the > articles > > > > > > authored by him at: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.townhall.com/columnists/johnmccaslin/archive.shtml > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom Hansen > > > > > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com > > > > > > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > > > > > > > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:09 PM > > > > > > > To: vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National > > > Democrat > > > > > on > > > > > > Iraq > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visionaries, > > > > > > > The Democrats' Iraq stances are > looking > > > > > > > increasingly schizophrenic, no? > > > > > > > TL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY > > > > > > > > By John McCaslin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > KERRY'S WAR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suffice it to say that Democratic > > > > > > presidential > > > > > > > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" > the > > > > > theme > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > his campaign. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On virtually every stump he's > stood > > > on > > > > > this > > > > > > > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has > > > > > complained > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > President Bush sidestepped the > > > congressionally > > > > > > > > approved path to war by bypassing the > > > United > > > > > > > > Nations, by not building an > international > > > > > > coalition, > > > > > > > > and simply by not doing what it was > that > > > he > > > > > had > > > > > > > > promised to do (actually, one could > argue > > > that > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > senator is wrong on all three counts). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in > favor > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now > > > says, > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > the understanding that Mr. Bush would > > > exhaust > > > > > > every > > > > > > > > remedy first. What was the big hurry, > in > > > other > > > > > > > > words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, > when > > > > > > nobody > > > > > > > > else in Washington except the Inside > the > > > > > Beltway > > > > > > > > column led with an item headlined, > "Finish > > > the > > > > > > > > mission." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Debate on whether to take out > Saddam > > > > > > Hussein, > > > > > > > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as > one > > > > > > > > Democratic senator is concerned," or > so we > > > had > > > > > > > > written. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts > is > > > > > > calling > > > > > > > > for a 'strong' military attack in > response > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of > > > amassing > > > > > a > > > > > > > > stockpile of weapons of mass > > > destruction.'B " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Weapons of mass destruction? > That's > > > what > > > > > > Mr. > > > > > > > > Kerry called them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "As the senator points out, > military > > > > > might > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > the only language Saddam knows B and > > > fears. > > > > > > 'Saddam > > > > > > > > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a > > > > > currency > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > he understands and values, for his > > > > > unacceptable > > > > > > > > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This > should > > > not be > > > > > a > > > > > > > > strike consisting only of a handful of > > > cruise > > > > > > > > missiles hitting isolated targets > > > primarily of > > > > > > > > presumed symbolic value. But how long > this > > > > > > military > > > > > > > > action might continue and how it may > > > escalate > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > and how extensive it would reach are > for > > > the > > > > > > [White > > > > > > > > House National] Security Council and > our > > > > > allies > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > know and for Saddam Hussein to find > out!'B > > > " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just as you wished, Senator. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > > > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > > > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use > web > > > site > > > > > > design software > > > > > > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > > > > > > List services made available by First > Step > > > > > > Internet, > > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse > > > since > > > > > > 1994. > > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > > > Yahoo! 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SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 19:58:50 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:58:50 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai Message-ID: This morning's Spokesman carried the pictures of the bodies of Hussein's sons, with an explanation of why the decision was made on the front page. I understand the Tribune did not. It did slow me down a little bit while eating my orange chicken right now, but I got over it. Should the pictures be published? Not? Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From sdredge@yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 20:02:43 2003 From: sdredge@yahoo.com (Scott Dredge) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Pres. Clinton Speech To Congress On IRAQs WMD In-Reply-To: <20030725180203.41048.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030725190243.62469.qmail@web10502.mail.yahoo.com> Full text of President Clinton's speech, without John Harrell's editing, can be located at... http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/w960104.htm -Scott From timlohr@yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 20:17:48 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Questions That Won't Be Asked Message-ID: <20030725191748.96480.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, Ron Paul may have been on to a few issues here, huh? TL > Questions That Won't Be Asked About Iraq > by Rep. Ron Paul, MD > In the House of Representatives, September 10, 2002 > Soon we hope to have hearings on the pending war > with Iraq. I am concerned > there are some questions that won’t be asked – and > maybe will not even be > allowed to be asked. Here are some questions I > would like answered by those > who are urging us to start this war. > 1. Is it not true that the reason we did not bomb > the Soviet Union at the > height of the Cold War was because we knew they > could retaliate? > 2. Is it not also true that we are willing to bomb > Iraq now because we know > it cannot retaliate – which just confirms that there > is no real threat? > 3. Is it not true that those who argue that even > with inspections we cannot > be sure that Hussein might be hiding weapons, at the > same time imply that we > can be more sure that weapons exist in the absence > of inspections? > 4. Is it not true that the UN’s International Atomic > Energy Agency was able > to complete its yearly verification mission to Iraq > just this year with > Iraqi cooperation? > 5. Is it not true that the intelligence community > has been unable to develop > a case tying Iraq to global terrorism at all, much > less the attacks on the > United States last year? Does anyone remember that > 15 of the 19 hijackers > came from Saudi Arabia and that none came from Iraq? > 6. Was former CIA counter-terrorism chief Vincent > Cannistraro wrong when he > recently said there is no confirmed evidence of > Iraq’s links to terrorism? > 7. Is it not true that the CIA has concluded there > is no evidence that a > Prague meeting between 9/11 hijacker Atta and Iraqi > intelligence took place? > 8. Is it not true that northern Iraq, where the > administration claimed > al-Qaeda were hiding out, is in the control of our > "allies," the Kurds? > 9. Is it not true that the vast majority of al-Qaeda > leaders who escaped > appear to have safely made their way to Pakistan, > another of our so-called > allies? > 10. Has anyone noticed that Afghanistan is rapidly > sinking into total chaos, > with bombings and assassinations becoming daily > occurrences; and that > according to a recent UN report the al-Qaeda "is, by > all accounts, alive and > well and poised to strike again, how, when, and > where it chooses"? > 11. Why are we taking precious military and > intelligence resources away from > tracking down those who did attack the United States > – and who may again > attack the United States – and using them to invade > countries that have not > attacked the United States? > > 12. Would an attack on Iraq not just confirm the > Arab world's worst > suspicions about the US – and isn't this what bin > Laden wanted? > > 13. How can Hussein be compared to Hitler when he > has no navy or air force, > and now has an army 1/5 the size of twelve years > ago, which even then proved > totally inept at defending the country? > 14. Is it not true that the constitutional power to > declare war is > exclusively that of the Congress? Should presidents, > contrary to the > Constitution, allow Congress to concur only when > pressured by public > opinion? Are presidents permitted to rely on the UN > for permission to go to > war? > 15. Are you aware of a Pentagon report studying > charges that thousands of > Kurds in one village were gassed by the Iraqis, > which found no conclusive > evidence that Iraq was responsible, that Iran > occupied the very city > involved, and that evidence indicated the type of > gas used was more likely > controlled by Iran not Iraq? > 16. Is it not true that anywhere between 100,000 and > 300,000 US soldiers > have suffered from Persian Gulf War syndrome from > the first Gulf War, and > that thousands may have died? > 17. Are we prepared for possibly thousands of > American casualties in a war > against a country that does not have the capacity to > attack the United > States? > 18. Are we willing to bear the economic burden of a > $100 billion war against > Iraq, with oil prices expected to skyrocket and > further rattle an already > shaky American economy? How about an estimated 30 > years occupation of Iraq > that some have deemed necessary to "build democracy" > there? > 19. Iraq’s alleged violations of UN resolutions are > given as reason to > initiate an attack, yet is it not true that hundreds > of UN Resolutions have > been ignored by various countries without penalty? > 20. Did former President Bush not cite the UN > Resolution of 1990 as the > reason he could not march into Baghdad, while > supporters of a new attack > assert that it is the very reason we can march into > Baghdad? > 21. Is it not true that, contrary to current claims, > the no-fly zones were > set up by Britain and the United States without > specific approval from the > United Nations? > 22. If we claim membership in the international > community and conform to its > rules only when it pleases us, does this not serve > to undermine our > position, directing animosity toward us by both > friend and foe? > 23. How can our declared goal of bringing democracy > to Iraq be believable > when we prop up dictators throughout the Middle East > and support military > tyrants like Musharraf in Pakistan, who overthrew a > democratically-elected > president? > 24. Are you familiar with the 1994 Senate Hearings > that revealed the U.S. > knowingly supplied chemical and biological materials > to Iraq during the > Iran-Iraq war and as late as 1992 – including after > the alleged Iraqi gas > attack on a Kurdish village? > 25. Did we not assist Saddam Hussein’s rise to power > by supporting and > encouraging his invasion of Iran? Is it honest to > criticize Saddam now for > his invasion of Iran, which at the time we actively > supported? > 26. Is it not true that preventive war is synonymous > with an act of > aggression, and has never been considered a moral or > legitimate US policy? > 27. Why do the oil company executives strongly > support this war if oil is > not the real reason we plan to take over Iraq? > 28. Why is it that those who never wore a uniform > and are confident that > they won’t have to personally fight this war are > more anxious for this war > than our generals? > 29. What is the moral argument for attacking a > nation that has not initiated > aggression against us, and could not if it wanted? > 30. Where does the Constitution grant us permission > to wage war for any > reason other than self-defense? > 31. Is it not true that a war against Iraq rejects > the sentiments of the > time-honored Treaty of Westphalia, nearly 400 years > ago, that countries > should never go into another for the purpose of > regime change? > 32. Is it not true that the more civilized a society > is, the less likely > disagreements will be settled by war? > 33. Is it not true that since World War II Congress > has not declared war > and – not coincidentally – we have not since then > had a clear-cut victory? > 34. Is it not true that Pakistan, especially through > its intelligence > services, was an active supporter and key organizer > of the Taliban? > 35. Why don't those who want war bring a formal > declaration of war > resolution to the floor of Congress? > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from > Texas. > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From ridethesaintedrhythms@hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 20:35:38 2003 From: ridethesaintedrhythms@hotmail.com (Joshua Gibbs) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 19:35:38 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] CHRIST church - DOWN FOR THE COUNT!!!!!! Message-ID: Oh, yeah? I don't go to Christ Church, so you need a better nasty thing to say back to me, Mr. Head-Prophet-of-Your-Mom-Boy. Note to everyone in this forum: Sorry to use this forum in such a childish way, but it's a slow summer, it's way too hot outside, and Bill London kind of already does. Nobody mind me, this is between me and The Future President of the United States. Oi! Joshua Gibbs >From: Douglas Stambler >To: Joshua Gibbs , vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] CHRIST church - DOWN FOR THE COUNT!!!!!! >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:05:29 -0700 (PDT) > >josh: you know that everyone who attends Christ church worships Satan, and >that no one in town likes that church. loser... > >Joshua Gibbs wrote: >Doug, > >You know that everyone on the forum thinks you are insane, and that nobody >likes you, right? > >Just checking, >Josh > >_________________________________________________________________ >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From thansen@moscow.com Fri Jul 25 20:43:03 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:43:03 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The question becomes: What purpose would it serve to publish the pictures here in the states? I can understand publishing these pictures in Iraq, to show the Iraqi people that they are dead. The only purpose I see for publishing these pictures in the states is sensationalism. No. I am definitely against publishing these pictures locally. If an article in the paper says that John Smith was killed, I really don't need a picture of a dead body to prov it, ok? Tom Hansen > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Carl Westberg > Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 11:59 AM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai > > > This morning's Spokesman carried the pictures of the bodies of Hussein's > sons, with an explanation of why the decision was made on the > front page. I > understand the Tribune did not. It did slow me down a little bit while > eating my orange chicken right now, but I got over it. Should > the pictures > be published? Not? > > > > > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us Fri Jul 25 22:14:13 2003 From: skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us (Stephanie Kalasz) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:14:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Monday Agendas Message-ID: <93812436F60FD511A83A0002B3029EFC73157F@DCFS01> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C352F1.B2664A70 Content-Type: text/plain AGENDA CITY OF MOSCOW ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEE Monday, July 28, 2003 4:00 p.m. CITY HALL COUNCIL CHAMBERS 206 East 3rd Street, Second Floor 1. Approval of Minutes of June 23, 2003 and July 7, 2003 - Stephanie Kalasz 2. Proposed Reasoned Statement for Denial of Solicitor's Appeal - Randy Fife On July 21, 2003, the Council denied reinstatement of Mr. Billy Blake's Solicitor's License. Per Moscow City Code, A Reasoned Statement must be completed within fifteen (15) days of the decision. The City Attorney has prepared a draft Reasoned Statement for Council approval. ACTION: Recommend approval of the Reasoned Statement with or without changes or take such other action deemed appropriate. 3. Cingular Agreement - Brant Kucera The City has been negotiating with Cingular Wireless LLC to locate digital cellular equipment on the Residence Street water reservoir in accordance with the City's co-location policy. Cingular Wireless proposes to mount six panel and one microwave antennas on the water tank. The lease agreement has been reviewed and approved by the Cell Tower Team and City Attorney. Cingular Wireless will pay an annual base fee of $7,200 for five (5) years with a CPI multiplier and a one-time application fee of $1,500. ACTION: Recommend approval of the Cingular Agreement and authorization of the Mayor's signature thereon. 4. Solicitor's License Discussion - Randy Fife/Stephanie Kalasz In reviewing the Peddlers, Solicitors and Canvassers Ordinance, staff believes that changes may be appropriate. A list of areas for possible change is included in the packet information. ACTION: Direct staff to continue reviewing the Peddlers, Solicitors and Canvassers Ordinance as outlined in the packet information; direct staff to draft alternate changes deemed appropriate; or take such other action deemed appropriate. Reports: City Park Planning - Dwight Curtis Aquifer Use Report - Tracie Kern FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS: Business License Discussion - Gary J. Riedner Entrance Park Planning w/U of Idaho - Dwight Curtis Status Report/Strategic Planning - Gary J. Riedner Grant Resolution Process - Gary J. Riedner NOTICE: Individuals attending the meeting who require special assistance to accommodate physical, hearing, or other impairments, please contact the City Clerk, at (208) 883-7015, as soon as possible so that arrangements may be made. AGENDA CITY OF MOSCOW PUBLIC WORKS/FINANCE COMMITTEE Monday, July 28, 2003 5:00 p.m. CITY HALL COUNCIL CHAMBERS 206 East 3rd Street, 2nd Floor 1. Approval of Minutes of July 7, 2003 - Stephanie Kalasz 2. Franchise Renewal with Latah Sanitation - Brant Kucera Staff has been working with Latah Sanitation, Inc., to renew the current omnibus solid waste franchise agreement. Currently, the City is operating under the first renewable 10-year franchise that was effective October 1, 1993. At that time, the franchise agreement was negotiated to include three 10-year terms. Staff has conducted a study comparing solid waste rates in the City of Moscow with other surrounding jurisdictions and rates continue to be favorable. Terms of the draft renewed agreements are similar to the expiring agreement. ACTION: Review the attached franchise documents and rate comparison survey and if acceptable, recommend approval and renew second term of solid waste franchise agreement with Latah Sanitation, Inc. 3. Itani & Itani Lot Line Adjustment - Plaskon Rafik Itani is requesting a lot line adjustment between Lots 8 and 9 of Block 1 of the Rolling Hills 5th Addition to the City of Moscow. The applicant describes the proposed lot line configuration as a more logical division of property relative to the site topography and would provide better access to Lot 9. Both lots resulting from the adjustment would retain adequate lot area and set back distance requirements for the applicable R-2 Zoning District. ACTION: Recommend approval of the lot-line adjustment. 4. Proposed Reasoned Statement for Denial of Solicitor's Appeal - Randy Fife On July 21, 2003, the Council denied reinstatement of Mr. Billy Blake's Solicitor's License. Per Moscow City Code, a Reasoned Statement must be completed within fifteen (15) days of the decision. The City Attorney has prepared a draft Reasoned Statement for Council approval. ACTION: Recommend approval of the Reasoned Statement with or without changes or take such other action deemed appropriate. REPORTS: City Park Planning - Dwight Curtis Aquifer Use Report - Tracie Kern Public Works Projects - Dave Klatt FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS: Status Report Strategic Planning - Gary J. Riedner URA Report - Gary J. Riedner Bid Discussion - Gary J. Riedner/Joel Plaskon SE Water and Sewer District Change Order Policy - Mark Cook Extension of Water Service to Polk - Tom Scallorn Temperature RFP - Mark Cook Discussion of Sidewalk Installation on "F" Street - Mark Cook NOTICE: Individuals attending the meeting who require special assistance to accommodate physical, hearing, or other impairments, please contact the City Clerk at (208) 883-7015, as soon as possible so that arrangements may be made. Stephanie Kalasz Interim City Clerk City of Moscow (208) 883-7015 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C352F1.B2664A70 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

AGENDA

=

CITY OF = MOSCOW

=

ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEE

Monday, July 28, 2003         =             =             =             =             =                   =         =             =             =             =             =             =             =    4:00 = p.m.

CITY HALL COUNCIL CHAMBERS

206 East 3rd = Street, Second = Floor

1.     &= nbsp;   Approval of Minutes of June 23, 2003 and July 7, = 2003 - Stephanie Kalasz

 

2.   Proposed Reasoned Statement for Denial = of Solicitor's Appeal - Randy = Fife

      On July 21, = 2003, the Council denied = reinstatement of Mr. Billy Blake's Solicitor's License.  Per Moscow City Code, A Reasoned Statement must be completed within fifteen (15) days of the decision.  The City Attorney has prepared a draft Reasoned = Statement for Council approval.

 

    &n= bsp; ACTION:  Recommend approval of the Reasoned Statement with = or without changes or take such other action deemed = appropriate.

 

3.     &= nbsp;   Cingular Agreement - Brant Kucera

The City has been negotiating with Cingular = Wireless LLC to locate digital cellular equipment on the Residence Street water = reservoir in accordance with the City's co-location policy.  Cingular Wireless = proposes to mount six panel and one microwave antennas on the water tank.  = The lease agreement has been reviewed and approved by the Cell Tower Team = and City Attorney.  Cingular Wireless will pay an annual base fee of $7,200 = for five (5) years with a CPI multiplier and a one-time application fee of = $1,500.

 

    &n= bsp; ACTION:  Recommend approval of the Cingular Agreement and authorization of the Mayor's signature thereon.

 

=

4.    &n= bsp;    Solicitor's License Discussion - Randy = Fife/Stephanie = Kalasz

      = In reviewing the Peddlers, = Solicitors and Canvassers Ordinance, staff believes that changes may be = appropriate.  A list of areas for possible change is included in the packet = information.

 

      ACTION:  Direct staff to = continue reviewing the Peddlers, Solicitors and Canvassers Ordinance as outlined = in the packet information; direct staff to draft alternate changes deemed = appropriate; or take such other action deemed appropriate.

 

 

 

Reports:

City = Park Planning - Dwight Curtis

Aquifer Use Report - Tracie = Kern

 

FUTURE AGENDA = ITEMS:

Business = License Discussion - Gary J. Riedner

Entrance Park Planning w/U of Idaho - Dwight Curtis

Status = Report/Strategic Planning - Gary J. Riedner

Grant = Resolution Process - Gary J. Riedner

 

NOTICE:  Individuals attending the meeting who = require special assistance to accommodate physical, hearing, or other = impairments, please contact the City Clerk, at (208) 883-7015, as soon as possible = so that arrangements may be made.

 

 

AGENDA

CITY OF = MOSCOW

PUBLIC WORKS/FINANCE = COMMITTEE

Monday, July 28,  2003        = ;            = ;            = ;  =             =             =             =             =             =             =             =             =      5:00 = p.m.

CITY HALL COUNCIL CHAMBERS

206 East 3rd = Street, = 2nd Floor

1.   Approval of Minutes of = July 7, 2003 - Stephanie Kalasz

 

2.   = Franchise = Renewal with Latah Sanitation - Brant = Kucera

      = Staff has been working with = Latah Sanitation, Inc., to renew the current omnibus solid waste franchise agreement.  Currently, the City is operating under the first = renewable 10-year franchise that was effective October 1, = 1993.  At that time, the = franchise agreement was negotiated to include three 10-year terms.  Staff = has conducted a study comparing solid waste rates in the City of = Moscow with other surrounding jurisdictions and = rates continue to be favorable.  Terms of the draft renewed agreements = are similar to the expiring agreement.

 

        = ACTION:  Review the attached franchise documents and rate comparison = survey and if acceptable, recommend approval and renew second term of solid waste = franchise agreement with Latah Sanitation, Inc.

 

3.   = Itani & = Itani Lot Line Adjustment - Plaskon

      = Rafik Itani is requesting a = lot line adjustment between Lots 8 and 9 of Block 1 of the Rolling Hills = 5th Addition to the City of Moscow.  The applicant = describes the proposed lot line configuration as a more logical division of property = relative to the site topography and would provide better access to = Lot 9.  Both lots resulting from the = adjustment would retain adequate lot area and set back distance requirements for = the applicable R-2 Zoning District.

 

=

    &nbs= p; ACTION:  Recommend approval of the lot-line adjustment.

 

=

4.   Proposed Reasoned Statement for Denial = of Solicitor's Appeal - Randy Fife

      On July 21, = 2003, the Council denied = reinstatement of Mr. Billy Blake's Solicitor's License.  Per Moscow City Code, a Reasoned Statement must be completed within fifteen (15) days of the decision.  The City Attorney has prepared a draft Reasoned = Statement for Council approval.

 

    &n= bsp; ACTION:  Recommend approval of the Reasoned Statement with = or without changes or take such other action deemed = appropriate.

 

=

REPORTS:

City Park Planning - Dwight = Curtis

Aquifer Use Report - Tracie Kern

Public Works Projects - Dave = Klatt

 

FUTURE AGENDA = ITEMS:

Status Report = Strategic Planning - Gary J. Riedner

URA Report - = Gary J. Riedner

Bid Discussion = - Gary J. Riedner/Joel Plaskon

SE Water and = Sewer District

Change Order = Policy - Mark Cook

Extension of = Water Service to Polk  - Tom Scallorn

Temperature = RFP - Mark Cook

Discussion of Sidewalk Installation on "F" Street - = Mark Cook

 

NOTICE:  Individuals attending = the meeting who require special assistance to accommodate physical, hearing, or = other impairments, please contact the City Clerk at (208) 883-7015, as soon = as possible so that arrangements may be made.

 

 

Stephanie = Kalasz

Interim City Clerk

City of = Moscow

(208) = 883-7015

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C352F1.B2664A70-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 22:10:18 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:10:18 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state Message-ID: Joshua, et. al. The author denies the importance of science and what he terms "human logic and ideas." "Why should I believe your logic over mine?" he queries Mr. Nielsen. At the end of this post he insists the Bible does not belong in the public schools, "because the Bible is truth, and truth has been denied in most every government school." It seems the author is using the very "human logic and ideas" he disparages to make his case. By what logic or evidence does the author know the Bible is truth, and does not belong in the "government schools," which deny truth? If his logic is derived from some source other than "human logic and ideas" then he might truly stand in a superior position to Mr. Nielson. So if this logic of this special superior form of thinking can be communicated, please do spell out the propositions of this special logic, so we can all be enlightened. I am sure the world's mathematicians and logicians would be grateful. But if you throw away human logic and ideas to refute the validity of someone's ideas, or the need to listen to someone who disagrees with you, while later on you slip in the back door some of this same "human logic and ideas" to prove your case, your are engaging in an intellectual sleight of hand trick that might fool some, but not all. Does the Bible contain Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity? Does the Bible contain the statements of Calculus or Analytic Geometry? Does the Bible contain the logic of binary systems upon which most computers are based. Does the Bible contain the poetry of Shakespeare, Emily Dickenson or T. S. Eliot? Does the Bible have instructions for open heart surgery or building a nuclear reactor or how to fix your cars engine? I could go on, but why? It seems the public schools do offer truths the Bible does not! The Bible likely contains some truth and some falsehood, just like the public schools. Is a student making a pledge to be "one nation under God" against your religion? Would you rather the public schools featured a pledge to be "one nation, under science against God?" It appear this last pledge is what you really think! By the way, science utilizes both inductive and deductive reasoning. Whether "proofs" are supplied by science is a debatable question. No one thinks the weather report is a "proof" of what sort of weather we will have two days hence. It is a very inductive and probabilistic prediction. But when a missile goes into orbit, the equations involved work with such precision that some would consider it "proved" that the equations are correct in their predictions of what will happen with a given mass at a given speed leaving the earth's surface, etc. But one of the major sources of doubt about the world is derived from the simple question: "Why should the universe continue to operate with the same laws as we have observed it operating?" Or to put it theologically, "Why it is considered impossible that God not be allowed to change his own laws, being all powerful and all knowing?" Do we have a proof the laws of nature or God will not change suddenly for reasons we do not understand? Such a proof appears evasive for either question, which should plant doubt in the minds of scientific atheists and anti-scientific theists alike. As to whether logical laws humans have discovered are just "human logic and ideas" is seriously debatable. Some of the greatest thinkers of history have determined that certain logical laws are true by virtue of their inherent construction, and remain true whether human beings remain in the universe or not. In this sense these logical statements are not "human," but universal to all times and places and intelligent beings, even perhaps God. Ted >From: Joshua Nieuwsma >To: vision >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:21:04 -0700 (PDT) > >Mr. Nielsen, > >even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you >wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your >rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to >appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His Word >and that He has preserved them throughout history for His Church, you would >seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance. As Scrooge said: You >might be perhaps a bit of bad beef, or a piece of underdone potato. No, >there's more of gravy than the grave about you. Humbug I tell you! Humbug! >I completely doubt that you would accept a voice from heaven saying "this >is my son, hear him". Could you have conquered in the sign of the cross >like Constantine did? With respect, I think you would be one of those >dwarves in The Last Battle who stubbornly refused to believe they had gone >through the stable door into paradise. And so to them paradise was a dank, >dark, smelly, muddy, straw-strewn little sh! > ed. And > yet all around them was green grass, trees with perfect fruit, blue >skies, pure streams of water, and next to them stood the King Himself. > >It is impossible to have "objective" truth according to man. Science is an >inductive discipline, it is not deductive. It cannot prove anything. Human >logic is based upon our own concepts and ideas. Why should I believe your >logic over mine? > >And if the Bible indeed is not worthy of a single drop of blood in its >defense, let alone blood spilled in the offense against the gates of Hell, >what would you defend with your life, Mr. Nielsen? What is important enough >to you to fight for? Daughter? Mother? Friend? House? Church? Nation? Why >are any of those important? Who says they are? By what standard do you >defend anything? > >The Bible shouldn't be in the public school because the Bible is truth, and >truth has been denied in most every government school. > >have a good day, > >Joshua Nieuwsma > > > > >Ralph Nielsen wrote: > > From: Joshua Nieuwsma > > Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific > > To: vision > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State > > > > > > I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism, > > islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of > > God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of the > > public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public > > education were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it, > > kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have > > have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the > > highway than in the government school classroom. > > > > Allow me also to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an > > integral part of some classes and point out that it is impossible for > > any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one > > anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with > > direct foundation in God's Holy Word. > > > > Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught > > about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that > > have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world, > > without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over > > another? > > > > cheers, > > > > Joshua N. > > > >Dear Joshua: >First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. >are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like them >or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion here. >It is a proper noun, not a generic term. >Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, none of >them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around for >centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your >brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what >constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. The >reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by human >beings, usually men. >I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of >dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I >also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you >realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that >none of them is worth a single drop of blood. >Go in peace. >Ralph Nielsen > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From casandrab@sub.uidaho.edu Sat Jul 26 01:30:49 2003 From: casandrab@sub.uidaho.edu (Casandra Byington) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:30:49 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Food Drive Message-ID: <9ED40ACAD972CB40AF23181E18795996CD0F46@fox.sub.uidaho.edu> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3530D.29CBD574 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Vision 2020, =20 In response to the need at the Troy Food Bank, the Civic Education Project at the University of Idaho will sponsor a food drive next week. We would like to invite Vision2020 members to volunteer their time with the distribution and collection of the donation bags. =20 We will be distributing bags Tuesday, July 29, 7:00 - 9:00 p.m. and picking up the full bags Thursday, July 31, 7:00 - 9:00 p.m. RSVP by e-mail to civic_ed@sub.uidaho.edu so we can create routes ahead of time. We will meet at the SUB Parking Lot both nights at 6:45 p.m. =20 We look forward to serving with you next week. =20 Casandra Byington Civic Education Project Special Projects Intern Idaho Commons Room 302 (208) 885-9442 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3530D.29CBD574 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Vision 2020,

 

In response to the need at the Troy Food Bank, the = Civic Education Project at the University of Idaho will sponsor a food drive next week.  We would like to invite Vision2020 members to volunteer their time with the distribution and collection of = the donation bags.

 

We will be distributing bags = Tuesday, July 29, 7:00 – 9:00 p.m. and = picking up the full bags Thursday, July 31, 7:00 – 9:00 = p.m.  RSVP by e-mail to civic_ed@sub.uidaho.edu so we can create routes ahead of time.  We will meet at the SUB = Parking Lot both nights at 6:45 = p.m.

 

We look forward to serving with you next = week.

 

Casandra Byington

Civic Education Project

Special Projects Intern

Idaho Commons Room 302

(208) 885-9442

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3530D.29CBD574-- From Brnieuwsma@softhome.net Fri Jul 25 06:59:55 2003 From: Brnieuwsma@softhome.net (Benjamin Nieuwsma) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:59:55 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Church and State Message-ID: <018201c35332$a4f4c240$1f00a8c0@benjamin> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0123_01C35237.4C704190 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings - Thank you for your responses to my query. As far as my statement about = Bibles in the public schools goes, I merely mentioned it as an example = of our modern understanding of this separation. Whether it has been = completely thrown out at certain schools, I know not. But I do know that = people have argued against having the Bible there, praying to the = Christian God openly there, and, (heaven forbid!), actually teaching the = Bible as the truth.=20 But I might ask why these are wrong? The thing about this that baffles = me is that the basis for their arguments has been the first amendment. = What I'm wondering is how in the world they manage to make this = amendment stand for the "separation of church and state" as understood = today.=20 Again, many thanks! Benjamin ------=_NextPart_000_0123_01C35237.4C704190 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings -
 
Thank you for your responses to my = query. As far as=20 my statement about Bibles in the public schools goes, I = merely mentioned it=20 as an example of our modern understanding of this separation. Whether it = has=20 been completely thrown out at certain schools, I know not. But I do know = that=20 people have argued against having the Bible there, praying to the = Christian God=20 openly there, and, (heaven forbid!), actually teaching the Bible as the = truth.=20
 
But I might ask why these are = wrong?=20 The thing about this that baffles me = is that the=20 basis for their arguments has been the first amendment. What I'm = wondering is=20 how in the world they manage to make this amendment stand for = the=20 "separation of church and state" as understood today.
 
Again, many thanks!
 
Benjamin
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0123_01C35237.4C704190-- From Brnieuwsma@softhome.net Sat Jul 26 06:14:30 2003 From: Brnieuwsma@softhome.net (Benjamin Nieuwsma) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 22:14:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state References: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FFD@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <01d201c35334$e3f93230$1f00a8c0@benjamin> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01C7_01C352FA.1ED20D90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Sir et altera, Please consider Luke 16:19-31 Gratias Ago! Benjamin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas Hansen=20 To: 'Joshua Nieuwsma' ; vision=20 Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:26 AM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state Do we file this under "self-righteousness" or basic "arrogance"? Tom -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:21 AM To: vision Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state Mr. Nielsen, even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, = you wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your = rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to = appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His = Word and that He has preserved them throughout history for His Church, = you would seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance. As = Scrooge said: You might be perhaps a bit of bad beef, or a piece of = underdone potato. No, there's more of gravy than the grave about you. = Humbug I tell you! Humbug! I completely doubt that you would accept a = voice from heaven saying "this is my son, hear him". Could you have = conquered in the sign of the cross like Constantine did? With respect, I = think you would be one of those dwarves in The Last Battle who = stubbornly refused to believe they had gone through the stable door into = paradise. And so to them paradise was a dank, dark, smelly, muddy, = straw-strewn little shed. And yet all around them was green grass, trees = with perfect fruit, blue skies, pure streams of water, and next to them = stood the King Himself.=20 It is impossible to have "objective" truth according to man. Science = is an inductive discipline, it is not deductive. It cannot prove = anything. Human logic is based upon our own concepts and ideas. Why = should I believe your logic over mine?=20 And if the Bible indeed is not worthy of a single drop of blood in = its defense, let alone blood spilled in the offense against the gates of = Hell, what would you defend with your life, Mr. Nielsen? What is = important enough to you to fight for? Daughter? Mother? Friend? House? = Church? Nation? Why are any of those important? Who says they are? By = what standard do you defend anything?=20 The Bible shouldn't be in the public school because the Bible is = truth, and truth has been denied in most every government school. have a good day, Joshua Nieuwsma Ralph Nielsen wrote: > From: Joshua Nieuwsma=20 > Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific > To: vision=20 > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State > > > I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside = mormonism,=20 > islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the = Word of=20 > God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of = the=20 > public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public=20 > education were consistent with their practices. And while we're = at it,=20 > kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have=20 > have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the=20 > highway than in the government school classroom.=20 > =20 > Allow me also! to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as = an=20 > integral part of some classes and point out that it is = impossible for=20 > any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad = one=20 > anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught = with=20 > direct foundation in God's Holy Word. > =20 > Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class = taught=20 > about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools = that=20 > have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world, = > without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one = religion over=20 > another? > =20 > cheers, > =20 > Joshua N. > Dear Joshua: First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, = etc.=20 are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like = them=20 or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion = he! re.=20 It is a proper noun, not a generic term. Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, none = of=20 them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around = for=20 centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your = brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what=20 constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. = The=20 reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by = human=20 beings, usually men. I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of = dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my = shelves. I=20 also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you = realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel = that=20 none of them is worth a single drop of blood. Go in peace. Ralph Nielsen -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software=20 ------=_NextPart_000_01C7_01C352FA.1ED20D90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Sir et altera,
 
Please consider Luke = 16:19-31
 
Gratias Ago!
 
Benjamin
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Thomas = Hansen=20
To: 'Joshua Nieuwsma' ; vision=20
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 = 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: = Bible in=20 school. Was Church and state

Do=20 we file this under "self-righteousness" or basic=20 "arrogance"?
 
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua Nieuwsma=20 [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, = 2003 9:21=20 AM
To: vision
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: = Bible in=20 school. Was Church and state

Mr. Nielsen,
 
even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's = word, you=20 wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your = rational=20 mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to appear = before=20 you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His Word and that = He has=20 preserved them throughout history for His Church, you would seek to = find=20 some reason to discredit His appearance. As Scrooge said: You = might be=20 perhaps a bit of bad beef, or a piece of underdone potato. No, = there's more=20 of gravy than the grave about you. Humbug I tell you! Humbug! I = completely doubt that you would accept a voice from heaven saying = "this is=20 my son, hear him". Could you have conquered in the sign of the cross = like=20 Constantine did? With respect, I think you would be one of those = dwarves in=20 The Last Battle who stubbornly refused to believe they had = gone=20 through the stable door into paradise. And so to them paradise was a = dank,=20 dark, smelly, muddy, straw-strewn little shed. And yet all around = them was=20 green grass, trees with perfect fruit, blue skies, pure streams of = water,=20 and next to them stood the King Himself.
 
It is impossible to have "objective" truth according to man. = Science is=20 an inductive discipline, it is not deductive. It cannot = prove=20 anything. Human logic is based upon our own concepts and=20 ideas. Why should I believe your logic over mine?
 
And if the Bible indeed is not worthy of a single drop of = blood in=20 its defense, let alone blood spilled in the offense against the = gates of=20 Hell, what would you defend with your life, Mr. Nielsen? What is = important=20 enough to you to fight for? Daughter? Mother? Friend? House? Church? = Nation? Why are any of those important? Who says they are? By = what=20 standard do you defend anything?
 
The Bible shouldn't be in the public school because the Bible = is truth,=20 and truth has been denied in most every government = school.
 
have a good day,
 
Joshua Nieuwsma
 
 
 

Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu> = wrote:
>=20 From: Joshua Nieuwsma
> Date: Thu = Jul 24,=20 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific
> To: vision=20
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church = and=20 State
>
>
> I for one don't want to see a bible = class=20 taught alongside mormonism,
> islam, hinduism, buddhism, = and any=20 other -'isms. Why set the Word of
> God equal with the = words of=20 confused man? Take the Bible out of the
> public = schools=20 completely! It's about time the goals of public
>=20 education were consistent with their practices. And while = we're at=20 it,
> kick the Christian children out, too. Their = parents=20 should have
> have pulled them out a long = time ago.=20 It's safer outside on the
> highway than in the government = school=20 classroom. 
>  
> Allow me also! to = take Mr.=20 Moffett's statement about religion as an
> integral part of = some=20 classes and point out that it is impossible for
> any = class or=20 "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one
> = anyhow.=20 It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with =
>=20 direct foundation in God's Holy Word.
>  
> Mr. = Moffett,=20 your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught
> = about=20 seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools = that=20
> have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the = world,=20
> without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one = religion=20 over
> another?
>  
> cheers,
>=20  
> Joshua N.
>

Dear Joshua:
First of = all, a=20 lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc.
are proper = nouns.=20 They require a capital letter whether you like them
or not. = The same=20 is true of the Bible, which is under discussion he! re.
It is = a proper=20 noun, not a generic term.
Although many religions claim they = have the=20 true Word of God, none of
them have any objective proof. = Religious=20 warfare has been around for
centuries and is still with us = today. A=20 few days ago I asked (your
brother?) Luke for an official = divine=20 definition of exactly what
constitutes "God's Holy Word, the = Bible."=20 We are still waiting. The
reason is that all holy books have = been=20 written and compiled by human
beings, usually men.
I am = personally=20 well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of
dozen = different=20 translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I
also = have=20 copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you =
realize that=20 they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that
none = of them=20 is worth a single drop of blood.
Go in peace.
Ralph=20 Nielsen

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo!=20 SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software=20
------=_NextPart_000_01C7_01C352FA.1ED20D90-- From cape@moscow.com Sat Jul 26 06:34:52 2003 From: cape@moscow.com (Brent Capener) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 22:34:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Who's Carwash Is It? Message-ID: <003901c35337$a3ae6d50$84f2f5c7@biff> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C352FC.F6B4B4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After years of mild frustration, it finally occurred to me that V2020 is = possibly the ideal forum in which to vent this. When a philanthropic, = charity, school, or otherwise group does a carwash, would you please = write on the signboards out front just who you are? Many times I have = driven past a carwash in my dirty pickup with money "burning a hole in = my pocket" but didn't feel like taking the time to pull out of traffic = to inquire about who I would be supporting. Had the identity been = posted, 99% of the time I would have pulled in, but I didn't feel like = dealing with the 1% possibility that it was an organization that I = oppose. =20 =20 Please forward or mention this to your non-V2020 friends. = Thanks BC ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C352FC.F6B4B4E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
After years of mild frustration, it = finally=20 occurred to me that V2020 is possibly the ideal forum in which to vent=20 this.  When a philanthropic, charity, school, or otherwise group = does a=20 carwash, would you please write on the signboards out front just = who you=20 are?  Many times I have driven past a carwash in my dirty pickup = with money=20 "burning a hole in my pocket" but didn't feel like taking the time to = pull out=20 of traffic to inquire about who I would be supporting. Had the identity = been=20 posted,  99% of the time I would have pulled in, but I didn't = feel=20 like dealing with the 1% possibility that it was an organization that I=20 oppose.           =             &= nbsp; 
 
Please forward or mention this to your = non-V2020=20 friends.           = ;=20 Thanks   BC
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C352FC.F6B4B4E0-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sat Jul 26 10:11:47 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 09:11:47 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Correction! Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: All: Correction! The second to the last sentence at the bottom of this post should read "...a common tactic by those who do NOT like certain conclusions science has come to." not "...a common tactic by those who DO like certain conclusions science has come to." Geez, I'm glad I'm not on a death penalty jury, I might have accidentally sent someone to the death chamber! Obviously a flawed and limited human mind at work! Ted >From: "Ted Moffett" >To: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 02:47:57 +0000 > >Luke wrote: > >> There have been a considerable number of murderers who have been >>locked >>up, then broke out and killed again. Serial killers are truly a threat to >>society, behind bars or not, but they also took away something from >>someone >>that cannot be given back. They no longer deserve the right to breathe >>once >>they've stopped another human's heart. >> BTW, I've never actually met another Christian who thought that the >>death penalty was wrong. It seems more of a leftist position. > >Ted replies: > >Luke, there are churches right here in Moscow where you can meet Christians >who do not follow Karl Marx who also do not believe in the death penalty. >Are you joking about this? > >Is support of the death penalty characteristic of dictatorships and so >called right wing regimes? I could say it's a right wing position. Your >casting of the death penalty as "left wing" reveals a bias on how you view >the issue, it seems. So you think the Vatican is "left wing?" That >Canada, Australia, France, England, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, etc. are all >"left wing?" I am so totally bored with this simple minded linear left vs. >right wing scheme for analyzing politics. It is so inadequate to truly >describe a complex set of political beliefs for someone who thinks >independently. > >Ted wrote: > > >> > But you think the State killing someone in cold blood is a side issue? >>What >> > sort of morality do you really represent? >> > >Luke replied: > >> Oh, it's important, all right. I was saying that it was a side issue >>to >>our discussion. We were debating how difficult it was to understand the >>Ten >>commandments, not whether the death penalty is right. Although there is a >>debate over that, it doesn't come because people read the T. C.'s and >>said, >>"?" It comes from someone actually disobeying the command to not murder. > >Ted replies: > >I must have not been clear in my meaning. If one of the commandments is >"Thou Shall Not Murder," and it is determined by Biblical scholars that for >the State to kill someone who is no longer a danger to society locked up in >a jail is "murder," then there is a controversy over the death penalty >linked to differing interpretations of one of the Ten Commandments. The >evidence is overwhelming that such a difference of opinion in Christianity >does exist, is fervent and fundamental, involving millions of people who >disagree. The point of emphasizing this disagreement over the >interpretation of one of the Ten Commandments is to argue that indeed it >can be difficult for the flawed and limited human mind to gain perfect >knowledge of God's laws. > >You, however, appear to be superior, in flawless understanding of God's >law, to the millions of Christians who disagree with you on the death >penalty's contradictory and troubling connection to the Commandment "Thou >Shall Not Murder." Though brilliant Biblical scholars disagree with you, >you have no doubt that you are correct and know God's law perfectly with no >error. > >Correct? > >Ted wrote: > >> >> > You are absolutely wrong! How about that for certainty! I do not >>support >> > the death penalty, and if you killed someone I loved it is possible I >>would >> > lose my temper and take you apart, but that is entirely different than >> > giving the State the power to kill in cold blood in a jail, which is >>what >> > supporting the "death penalty" means. >> > >Luke replied: > >> I believe you are incorrect. I don't know a whole lot about the legal >>system, but my understanding is that first you went through something >>called >>a trial, where a jury decides what penalty there will be for a crime. The >>State has no power to enforce the death penalty unless the verdict is >>guilty >>as charged (unless, of course, the defendant was foolish enough to opt out >>of a jury trial, or he knew he was guilty and pled accordingly). The >>principle behind the courtroom, which you will hear in any trial, is >>innocent until proven guilty. And if someone kills a loved one of yours, >>you >>will try to prove them guilty, Mr. Moffett. >> BTW, Idaho's methods of authorized execution are lethal injection and >>a >>firing squad. Just so you know... >> > >Ted replied: > >Yes, of course, I meant that the killing of the convicted by the State >after a trial has determined that death penalty is to be enforced is still >cold blooded deliberate killing of a person when they are restrained and in >jail. > >Ted wrote: > >> > Perhaps I can suggest that you are an empiricist of a sort when you >>assert >> > that your absolute code of conduct and morality comes from a book which >>you >> > believe to be divinely revealed. Therefore the empirical data that are >>the >> > foundation for your belief system are contained in the Bible. You will >>only >> > accept what you can determine when the Bible is under your microscope. >>No >> > facts from the Bible, no religion. >> > >Luke replied: > >> If you mean that I am a Christian because my ears heard the gospel or >>my >>eyes read the Bible, then of course. All of us use our faculties to gather >>information about the world around us - it's known as the Five Senses. >>You're using them right now to read this post. But that's not the same >>thing >>as denying the existence of something unless you can chemically diagram >>and >>manipulate it, which is empiricism. > >Ted replies: > >I don't want to get into a technical discussion of empiricism vs. >rationalism etc. I am not an empiricist in the strict meaning of the term, >anyways. But scientific methods and theory involve all sorts of amazing >inferences from fact using theory to unobserved inferred realities. So the >"invisible" beyond our senses is very much a part of science, and some >scientists attempt to study "invisible" para-normal phenomena, for example, >that many people think rather unscientific. > >Science is a method of gaining knowledge based on replicable experiments >and/or data gathering using theory to make inferences from the facts, but >this method does not, as you state, "deny the existence of something unless >it can be chemically diagrammed or manipulated." If something cannot be >chemically diagrammed or manipulated, it may not be understood in these >terms, but why does it follow it does not exist, according to science? >Scientific method indicates that many possibilities exist, and none can be >ruled out till they are examined with experiment and observation and >theory. Even then, many explanations for a given phenomena may still be >possible. > >What is your point? > >I think you are arguing from a negative view of science trying to make >science look bad by making a case that it somehow demeans or degrades life >and spirituality etc. a common tactic by those who do like certain >conclusions science has come to. > >I don't care if you spell my name with one t or two. Minor issue. > >Ted > >_________________________________________________________________ >Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Sat Jul 26 18:04:41 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Who's Brainwash Is It? In-Reply-To: <003901c35337$a3ae6d50$84f2f5c7@biff> Message-ID: <20030726170441.896.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1991975652-1059239081=:97355 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If it's brainwashing you're after, brent, you might try attending Christ church, as i heard they do a thorough sterilization of all free-thinking minds that walk in there on any given sunday. the thing about Christ church, is that they think they are above the law of the land...why, just this week a Christ church affiliate broke into my e-mail account! well, doug wilson is god, and so, i guess that's all okay...even to the point of killing people in the name of doug wilson's lunatic ideas about Christianity. STOP THE CULT. DO YOUR PART. BOYCOTT CHRIST CHURCH AND ITS AFFILIATES. SPEAK OPENLY AND CANDIDLY ABOUT THE END OF THIS CULT, AS IF IT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. DO THE LITTLE THINGS NECESSARY TO STOP THE EVIL THAT LOOMS FROM THE SPIRES OF CHRIST CHURCH. STOP KIMMEL, STOP THE TAKEOVER OF THIS TOWN BY FASCISTS, POSING AS CHRISTIANS. all the best, douglas stambler (moscow) Brent Capener wrote: After years of mild frustration, it finally occurred to me that V2020 is possibly the ideal forum in which to vent this. When a philanthropic, charity, school, or otherwise group does a carwash, would you please write on the signboards out front just who you are? Many times I have driven past a carwash in my dirty pickup with money "burning a hole in my pocket" but didn't feel like taking the time to pull out of traffic to inquire about who I would be supporting. Had the identity been posted, 99% of the time I would have pulled in, but I didn't feel like dealing with the 1% possibility that it was an organization that I oppose. Please forward or mention this to your non-V2020 friends. Thanks BC --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1991975652-1059239081=:97355 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
If it's brainwashing you're after, brent, you might try attending Christ church, as i heard they do a thorough sterilization of all free-thinking minds that walk in there on any given sunday.
 
the thing about Christ church, is that they think they are above the law of the land...why, just this week a Christ church affiliate broke into my e-mail account!  well, doug wilson is god, and so, i guess that's all okay...even to the point of killing people in the name of doug wilson's lunatic ideas about Christianity.
 
STOP THE CULT.  DO YOUR PART.  BOYCOTT CHRIST CHURCH AND ITS AFFILIATES.  SPEAK OPENLY AND CANDIDLY ABOUT THE END OF THIS CULT, AS IF IT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.
 
DO THE LITTLE THINGS NECESSARY TO STOP THE EVIL THAT LOOMS FROM THE SPIRES OF CHRIST CHURCH.
 
STOP KIMMEL, STOP THE TAKEOVER OF THIS TOWN BY FASCISTS, POSING AS CHRISTIANS.
 
all the best,
douglas stambler
(moscow)

Brent Capener <cape@moscow.com> wrote:
After years of mild frustration, it finally occurred to me that V2020 is possibly the ideal forum in which to vent this.  When a philanthropic, charity, school, or otherwise group does a carwash, would you please write on the signboards out front just who you are?  Many times I have driven past a carwash in my dirty pickup with money "burning a hole in my pocket" but didn't feel like taking the time to pull out of traffic to inquire about who I would be supporting. Had the identity been posted,  99% of the time I would have pulled in, but I didn't feel like dealing with the 1% possibility that it was an organization that I oppose.                         
 
Please forward or mention this to your non-V2020 friends.            Thanks   BC
 
 
 

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1991975652-1059239081=:97355-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Sat Jul 26 18:12:23 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Re: CHRIST church - DOWN FOR THE COUNT! - 8, 9, 10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030726171223.13618.qmail@web80604.mail.yahoo.com> --0-702038670-1059239543=:13284 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii i never said that you attend Christ church. but you do work for the credenda, don't you? or have in the past? i think that's in the ballpark, wouldn't you say, "Nicholas Van Orton?" you're a total idiot, josh. give up violence and try Christ. and please, get over the idea that homosexuals aren't Christians. yes, homosexuality is a sin, like any other form of fornication, but that doesn't necessarily make someone NOT a Christian. Christ church teaches people to hate homosexuals: that is simply not what Christ taught. Christ taught to love the person, not the sin. besides, with all the homosexuality and perversion that goes on at Christ church and its affiliates, you gotta wonder what kind of man doug wilson really is: what i mean is, who is this guy, anyway? i think he should wear a tail and horns around town, just so we can identify him. in fact, why don't we have all Christ church members wear horns and a tail around town, maybe a cowbell, too? cuz you know, it's so hard to SMELL evil coming, we regular citizens in moscow have to have a better way of identifying your putrefying influence here. josh gibbs is a jerk, douglas stambler (moscow) Joshua Gibbs wrote: Oh, yeah? I don't go to Christ Church, so you need a better nasty thing to say back to me, Mr. Head-Prophet-of-Your-Mom-Boy. Note to everyone in this forum: Sorry to use this forum in such a childish way, but it's a slow summer, it's way too hot outside, and Bill London kind of already does. Nobody mind me, this is between me and The Future President of the United States. Oi! Joshua Gibbs >From: Douglas Stambler >To: Joshua Gibbs , vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] CHRIST church - DOWN FOR THE COUNT!!!!!! >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:05:29 -0700 (PDT) > >josh: you know that everyone who attends Christ church worships Satan, and >that no one in town likes that church. loser... > >Joshua Gibbs wrote: >Doug, > >You know that everyone on the forum thinks you are insane, and that nobody >likes you, right? > >Just checking, >Josh > >_________________________________________________________________ >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-702038670-1059239543=:13284 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
i never said that you attend Christ church.  but you do work for the credenda, don't you?  or have in the past?  i think that's in the ballpark, wouldn't you say, "Nicholas Van Orton?"
 
you're a total idiot, josh.  give up violence and try Christ.  and please, get over the idea that homosexuals aren't Christians.  yes, homosexuality is a sin, like any other form of fornication, but that doesn't necessarily make someone NOT a Christian.  Christ church teaches people to hate homosexuals: that is simply not what Christ taught.  Christ taught to love the person, not the sin.
 
besides, with all the homosexuality and perversion that goes on at Christ church and its affiliates, you gotta wonder what kind of man doug wilson really is: what i mean is, who is this guy, anyway?  i think he should wear a tail and horns around town, just so we can identify him.  in fact, why don't we have all Christ church members wear horns and a tail around town, maybe a cowbell, too?  cuz you know, it's so hard to SMELL evil coming, we regular citizens in moscow have to have a better way of identifying your putrefying influence here.
 
josh gibbs is a jerk,
douglas stambler
(moscow)

Joshua Gibbs <ridethesaintedrhythms@hotmail.com> wrote:
Oh, yeah? I don't go to Christ Church, so you need a better nasty thing to
say back to me, Mr. Head-Prophet-of-Your-Mom-Boy.

Note to everyone in this forum: Sorry to use this forum in such a childish
way, but it's a slow summer, it's way too hot outside, and Bill London kind
of already does. Nobody mind me, this is between me and The Future President
of the United States.

Oi!
Joshua Gibbs



>From: Douglas Stambler
>To: Joshua Gibbs , vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] CHRIST church - DOWN FOR THE COUNT!!!!!!
>Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:05:29 -0700 (PDT)
>
>josh: you know that everyone who attends Christ church worships Satan, and
>that no one in town likes that church. loser...
>
>Joshua Gibbs wrote:
>Doug,
>
>You know that everyone on the forum thinks you are insane, and that nobody
>likes you, right?
>
>Just checking,
>Josh
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
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>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-702038670-1059239543=:13284-- From nielsen@uidaho.edu Sat Jul 26 22:41:21 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:41:21 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Vision2020 digest, Vol 1 #599 - 4 msgs In-Reply-To: <20030726190002.66556.95842.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: --Apple-Mail-105--655896842 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > 1. Who's Carwash Is It? (Brent Capener) > > From: Brent Capener > Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 10:34:52 PM US/Pacific > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Cc: verawhite@aol.com > Subject: [Vision2020] Who's Carwash Is It? > > > After years of mild frustration, it finally occurred to me that V2020=20= > is possibly the ideal forum in which to vent this.=A0 When a=20 > philanthropic, charity, school, or otherwise group does a carwash,=20 > would you please write on the=A0signboards out front just who you = are?=A0=20 > Many times I have driven past a carwash in my dirty pickup with money=20= > "burning a hole in my pocket" but didn't feel like taking the time to=20= > pull out of traffic to inquire about who I would be supporting. Had=20 > the identity been posted,=A0 99% of the time=A0I would have pulled in, = but=20 > I didn't feel like dealing with the 1% possibility that it was an=20 > organization that I oppose.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 > =A0 > Please forward or mention this to your non-V2020 friends.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20 > Thanks=A0=A0 BC > Who is carwash is it? What kind of language is this? "Who's" means "Who is." Ralph Nielsen --Apple-Mail-105--655896842 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 1. Who's Carwash Is It? (Brent Capener) From: Brent Capener < Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 10:34:52 PM US/Pacific To: vision2020@moscow.com Cc: verawhite@aol.com Subject: [Vision2020] Who's Carwash Is It? ArialAfter years of mild frustration, it finally occurred to me that V2020 is possibly the ideal forum in which to vent this.=A0 When a philanthropic, charity, school, or otherwise group does a carwash, would you please write on the=A0signboards out front just who you are?=A0 Many times I have driven past a carwash in my dirty pickup with money "burning a hole in my pocket" but didn't feel like taking the time to pull out of traffic to inquire about who I would be supporting. Had the identity been posted,=A0 99% of the time=A0I would have pulled in, but I didn't feel like dealing with the 1% possibility that it was an organization that I oppose.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0 Arial=A0 ArialPlease forward or mention this to your non-V2020 friends.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Thanks=A0=A0 BC Who is carwash is it? What kind of language is this? "Who's" means "Who is." Ralph Nielsen --Apple-Mail-105--655896842-- From nielsen@uidaho.edu Sat Jul 26 23:15:03 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:15:03 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school In-Reply-To: <20030725180600.90891.32403.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <9B2FDD7C-BFB6-11D7-993C-00039385F674@uidaho.edu> --Apple-Mail-107--653874657 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:21 AM > To: vision > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state > > Mr. Nielsen, > =A0 > even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you=20= > wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your=20 > rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to=20= > appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His=20= > Word and that He has preserved them throughout history for His Church,=20= > you would seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance. Joshua Nieuwsma, Where do you get the idea that there are 66 books in the Bible? I have a couple of Bibles that have 39 books. One of them has = Hebrew=20 and English text on facing pages. I have several Bibles in several languages that have 66 books in = them.=20 One of them is given royal approval by Her Majesty Queen Margrethe II=20 of Denmark. I have a facsimile copy of the King James Bible of 1611. It = contains=20 72 books. It is called the Authorised Version because it was approved=20 by His Majesty King James I of England. I have other Bibles, two of=20 them in French, that also contain 72 books. I also have a Bible that=20 contains 74 books plus the Prayer of Manasseh. So I can show you Bibles that have written royal approval but = you=20 can't show me a Bible that has written divine approval. Even your=20 irrational mind can't help you find one. Ralph Nielsen =09 --Apple-Mail-107--653874657 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 <= excerpt>TahomaFrom:Tahoma Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:21 AM To: vision Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state Mr. Nielsen, =A0 even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His Word and that He has preserved them throughout history for His Church, you would seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance.=20 Joshua Nieuwsma, Where do you get the idea that there are 66 books in the Bible?=20= I have a couple of Bibles that have 39 books. One of them has = Hebrew and English text on facing pages.=20 I have several Bibles in several languages that have 66 books in them. One of them is given royal approval by Her Majesty Queen Margrethe II of Denmark.=20 I have a facsimile copy of the King James Bible of 1611. It = contains 72 books. It is called the Authorised Version because it was approved by His Majesty King James I of England. I have other Bibles, two of them in French, that also contain 72 books. I also have a Bible that contains 74 books plus the Prayer of Manasseh.=20 So I can show you Bibles that have written royal approval but = you can't show me a Bible that has written divine approval. Even your irrational mind can't help you find one. Ralph Nielsen =09 --Apple-Mail-107--653874657-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Sat Jul 26 23:27:21 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] BOYCOTT ZUME Message-ID: <20030726222721.13641.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com> --0-946956652-1059258441=:12806 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii BOYCOTT ZUME --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-946956652-1059258441=:12806 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
BOYCOTT ZUME

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-946956652-1059258441=:12806-- From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Sat Jul 26 23:37:58 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school In-Reply-To: <9B2FDD7C-BFB6-11D7-993C-00039385F674@uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <20030726223758.36513.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Mr. Ralph Nielsen, Don't forget Thomas Jefferson's bible, I believe he wrote one also, or at least edited it. What about you, Ralph, how would you edit the Bible? Would it have one book, or more? What would the bible according to Ralph look like? Would you add more stuff according to your "infinite" wisdom? Or, would you rip stuff out? Or, would you add some stuff and rip some stuff out? Should the bible according to Ralph Nielson be THE bible and THE ultimate standard? Or should we all have one that we individually get to create, and therefore, we individually decide to follow? Cheers! John Harrell --- Ralph Nielsen wrote: > > From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:21 AM > > To: vision > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state > > > > Mr. Nielsen, > >   > > even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you > > wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your > > rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to > > appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His > > Word and that He has preserved them throughout history for His Church, > > you would seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance. > > Joshua Nieuwsma, > Where do you get the idea that there are 66 books in the Bible? > I have a couple of Bibles that have 39 books. One of them has Hebrew > and English text on facing pages. > I have several Bibles in several languages that have 66 books in them. > One of them is given royal approval by Her Majesty Queen Margrethe II > of Denmark. > I have a facsimile copy of the King James Bible of 1611. It contains > 72 books. It is called the Authorised Version because it was approved > by His Majesty King James I of England. I have other Bibles, two of > them in French, that also contain 72 books. I also have a Bible that > contains 74 books plus the Prayer of Manasseh. > So I can show you Bibles that have written royal approval but you > can't show me a Bible that has written divine approval. Even your > irrational mind can't help you find one. > Ralph Nielsen > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Sun Jul 27 00:35:26 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 16:35:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai Message-ID:

Carl,

I think the Spokesman Review could have done without those pictures.  Steven A. Smith's note about the decision-making process ends by saying, "But we sincerely believe publication serves the interests of the larger audience and the interests of history."

It seems to me that if the S-R is interested in serving a larger audience and history, they might consider doing some reporting on the unravelling of the rationales for this war. They could follow up on Rumsfeld's comment that it was impossible to capture the folks in that villa.  I guess our ability to wait people out has deteriorated since we got Old What's His Name in Panama, back in the first Bush Administration.  Must be Clinton's fault.

Perhaps they could write an article about whether our government has any interest in taking any of the Hussein family alive. By now it ought to be clear that we have no intention.  Whenever we think we know where he is, everything and everyone in the vicinity gets blown up.  Hey, in the interest of History, why not an article about why our government might prefer not to have Hussein alive and talking to reporters?

Sunil Ramalingam

>From: "Carl Westberg"
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai
>Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:58:50 -0700
>
>This morning's Spokesman carried the pictures of the bodies of
>Hussein's sons, with an explanation of why the decision was made on
>the front page. I understand the Tribune did not. It did slow me
>down a little bit while eating my orange chicken right now, but I
>got over it. Should the pictures be published? Not?
>
>
>
>
>Carl Westberg Jr.
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
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>_____________________________________________________
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>communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From dkaag@turbonet.com Sun Jul 27 00:44:30 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 16:44:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Jefferson's Bible... Message-ID: <19AB2AAA-BFC3-11D7-A49D-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Visionaries: Copies of Jefferson's Bible are hard to come by, as most organized Christian sects abhor what he did. He went through and edited out everything but Jesus' words and philosophy. The original published version was in parallel Latin, Greek, French and English, in all of which Jefferson was fluent. He told John Adams that he was rescuing the Philosophy of Jesus and the "pure principles which he taught," from the "artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms as instruments of riches and power for themselves." When he was through, the volume was pretty thin, even with four different translations. Actually, the present Bible was designed by a committee. It would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall when the members decided which books got to be in the Bible and which prophets were going to be consigned to the Apocrypha. Maybe we could've gotten something more interesting than the "Begats"... Regards, Don Kaag From timlohr@yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 01:13:25 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 17:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030727001325.97370.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Sunil, What do you think about the rationale we hear so much--the folks in Iraq are so paranoid Hussein and his sons are going to eventually come back to power that they are reluctant to get involved in any sort of reconstruction efforts. Is that a good reason for letting their corpses be seen? TL --- Sunil Ramalingam wrote: --------------------------------- Carl, I think the Spokesman Review could have done without those pictures. Steven A. Smith's note about the decision-making process ends by saying, "But we sincerely believe publication serves the interests of the larger audience and the interests of history." It seems to me that if the S-R is interested in serving a larger audience and history, they might consider doing some reporting on the unravelling of the rationales for this war. They could follow up on Rumsfeld's comment that it was impossible to capture the folks in that villa. I guess our ability to wait people out has deteriorated since we got Old What's His Name in Panama, back in the first Bush Administration. Must be Clinton's fault. Perhaps they could write an article about whether our government has any interest in taking any of the Hussein family alive. By now it ought to be clear that we have no intention. Whenever we think we know where he is, everything and everyone in the vicinity gets blown up. Hey, in the interest of History, why not an article about why our government might prefer not to have Hussein alive and talking to reporters? Sunil Ramalingam >From: "Carl Westberg" >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:58:50 -0700 > >This morning's Spokesman carried the pictures of the bodies of >Hussein's sons, with an explanation of why the decision was made on >the front page. I understand the Tribune did not. It did slow me >down a little bit while eating my orange chicken right now, but I >got over it. Should the pictures be published? Not? > > > > >Carl Westberg Jr. > >_________________________________________________________________ >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. >http://www.fsr.net >mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*_____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From ridethesaintedrhythms@hotmail.com Sun Jul 27 01:31:43 2003 From: ridethesaintedrhythms@hotmail.com (Joshua Gibbs) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 00:31:43 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: CHRIST church - DOWN FOR THE COUNT! - 8, 9, 10 Message-ID: Head Prophet, When you're the president, in the future, are you going to keep that fried hair you have when you go on television to address the nation? I tell you what, promise me you'll keep the goofy hair, and I'll totally vote for you. And quit being jealous of Doug Wilson. You know you'd give your good spot at the shelter for a single follower. Oh Snap, Josh _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From petew@completebbs.com Sun Jul 27 01:57:11 2003 From: petew@completebbs.com (Peter Willard) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 17:57:11 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Jefferson's Bible... In-Reply-To: <19AB2AAA-BFC3-11D7-A49D-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030726174838.00a1a1e0@mail.completebbs.com> --=======7C6D22A8======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4B8BE76; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 04:44 PM 7/26/03 -0700, Don Kaag wrote: >Visionaries: > >Copies of Jefferson's Bible are hard to come by, Even on the dial-up, which doesn't want me to have a connection today, it takes about 20 seconds to find a dozen sites with the complete text of the Jefferson Bible. Try typing in "Jefferson Bible" at google.com. Prefer the KJV myself, but the Jefferson is worth a read. Here's Google's first pick. http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/ If you like a "normal" book, they are about $12 new. Hope that helps. Also... >Actually, the present Bible was designed by a committee I thought it was just Jerome sitting in his cave or whatever? --=======7C6D22A8======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4B8BE76 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 7/18/03 --=======7C6D22A8=======-- From nielsen@uidaho.edu Sun Jul 27 04:23:36 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:23:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school In-Reply-To: <20030726223758.36513.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 03:37 PM, John Harrell wrote: > Mr. Ralph Nielsen, > > Don't forget Thomas Jefferson's bible, I believe he wrote one also, or > at > least edited it. > > What about you, Ralph, how would you edit the Bible? Would it have one > book, > or more? What would the bible according to Ralph look like? Would you > add > more stuff according to your "infinite" wisdom? Or, would you rip > stuff out? > Or, would you add some stuff and rip some stuff out? > > Should the bible according to Ralph Nielson be THE bible and THE > ultimate > standard? Or should we all have one that we individually get to > create, and > therefore, we individually decide to follow? > > Cheers! > John Harrell > > > --- Ralph Nielsen wrote: >>> From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com] >>> Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:21 AM >>> To: vision >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state >>> >>> Mr. Nielsen, >>>   >>> even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you >>> wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your >>> rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to >>> appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His >>> Word and that He has preserved them throughout history for His >>> Church, >>> you would seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance. >> >> Joshua Nieuwsma, >> Where do you get the idea that there are 66 books in the Bible? >> I have a couple of Bibles that have 39 books. One of them has Hebrew >> and English text on facing pages. >> I have several Bibles in several languages that have 66 books in >> them. >> One of them is given royal approval by Her Majesty Queen Margrethe II >> of Denmark. >> I have a facsimile copy of the King James Bible of 1611. It contains >> 72 books. It is called the Authorised Version because it was approved >> by His Majesty King James I of England. I have other Bibles, two of >> them in French, that also contain 72 books. I also have a Bible that >> contains 74 books plus the Prayer of Manasseh. >> So I can show you Bibles that have written royal approval but you >> can't show me a Bible that has written divine approval. Even your >> irrational mind can't help you find one. >> Ralph Nielsen >> Hi John, I get the impression you are trying to evade the issue here. Ralph Nielsen From thansen@moscow.com Sun Jul 27 05:24:18 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:24:18 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai In-Reply-To: <20030727001325.97370.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes. As I stated before, it makes sense to publish the photos in Iraq so that Iraqi citizens (who know exactly what thye look like) would know that they are dead, not here. Tom Hansen > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 5:13 PM > To: Sunil Ramalingam > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai > > > Sunil, > What do you think about the rationale we hear so > much--the folks in Iraq are so paranoid Hussein and > his sons are going to eventually come back to power > that they are reluctant to get involved in any sort of > reconstruction efforts. > Is that a good reason for letting their corpses be > seen? > TL > > > > > > --- Sunil Ramalingam > wrote: > > --------------------------------- > > Carl, > > I think the Spokesman Review could have done without > those pictures. Steven A. Smith's note about the > decision-making process ends by saying, "But we > sincerely believe publication serves the interests of > the larger audience and the interests of history." > > It seems to me that if the S-R is interested in > serving a larger audience and history, they might > consider doing some reporting on the unravelling of > the rationales for this war. They could follow up on > Rumsfeld's comment that it was impossible to capture > the folks in that villa. I guess our ability to wait > people out has deteriorated since we got Old What's > His Name in Panama, back in the first Bush > Administration. Must be Clinton's fault. > > Perhaps they could write an article about whether our > government has any interest in taking any of the > Hussein family alive. By now it ought to be clear that > we have no intention. Whenever we think we know where > he is, everything and everyone in the vicinity gets > blown up. Hey, in the interest of History, why not an > article about why our government might prefer not to > have Hussein alive and talking to reporters? > > Sunil Ramalingam > > > > >From: "Carl Westberg" > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai > >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:58:50 -0700 > > > >This morning's Spokesman carried the pictures of the > bodies of > >Hussein's sons, with an explanation of why the > decision was made on > >the front page. I understand the Tribune did not. It > did slow me > >down a little bit while eating my orange chicken > right now, but I > >got over it. Should the pictures be published? Not? > > > > > > > > > >Carl Westberg Jr. > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months > FREE* > >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > >List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the > >communities of the Palouse since 1994. > >http://www.fsr.net > >mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > > > --------------------------------- > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months > FREE*_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com////////////////////////////////////// > /////////////// > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Sun Jul 27 20:30:13 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 12:30:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai Message-ID:

I doubt the Iraqis you are talking about are going to be reading the Spokesman-Review.

Sunil

>From: Tim Lohrmann
>To: Sunil Ramalingam
>CC: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai
>Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 17:13:25 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Sunil,
> What do you think about the rationale we hear so
>much--the folks in Iraq are so paranoid Hussein and
>his sons are going to eventually come back to power
>that they are reluctant to get involved in any sort of
>reconstruction efforts.
> Is that a good reason for letting their corpses be
>seen?
> TL
>
>
>
>
>
>--- Sunil Ramalingam
>wrote:
>
>---------------------------------
>
>Carl,
>
>I think the Spokesman Review could have done without
>those pictures. Steven A. Smith's note about the
>decision-making process ends by saying, "But we
>sincerely believe publication serves the interests of
>the larger audience and the interests of history."
>
>It seems to me that if the S-R is interested in
>serving a larger audience and history, they might
>consider doing some reporting on the unravelling of
>the rationales for this war. They could follow up on
>Rumsfeld's comment that it was impossible to capture
>the folks in that villa. I guess our ability to wait
>people out has deteriorated since we got Old What's
>His Name in Panama, back in the first Bush
>Administration. Must be Clinton's fault.
>
>Perhaps they could write an article about whether our
>government has any interest in taking any of the
>Hussein family alive. By now it ought to be clear that
>we have no intention. Whenever we think we know where
>he is, everything and everyone in the vicinity gets
>blown up. Hey, in the interest of History, why not an
>article about why our government might prefer not to
>have Hussein alive and talking to reporters?
>
>Sunil Ramalingam
>
>
>
> >From: "Carl Westberg"
> >To: vision2020@moscow.com
> >Subject: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai
> >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:58:50 -0700
> >
> >This morning's Spokesman carried the pictures of the
>bodies of
> >Hussein's sons, with an explanation of why the
>decision was made on
> >the front page. I understand the Tribune did not. It
>did slow me
> >down a little bit while eating my orange chicken
>right now, but I
> >got over it. Should the pictures be published? Not?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Carl Westberg Jr.
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
>
> >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months
>FREE*
> >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
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> >_____________________________________________________
>
> >List services made available by First Step Internet,
>serving the
> >communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >http://www.fsr.net
> >mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months
>FREE*_____________________________________________________
>List services made available by First Step Internet,
>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>
>__________________________________
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>Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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>_____________________________________________________
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> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From cape@moscow.com Sun Jul 27 20:39:54 2003 From: cape@moscow.com (Brent Capener) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 12:39:54 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Vision2020 digest, Vol 1 #599 - 4 msgs Message-ID: <003001c35476$db4ebb30$54f2f5c7@biff> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C3543C.2E67EE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Very nice snag Ralph! At first glance I thought that the person = who* I very much admire for his uncanny accuracy in, shall we say, = "truth in literature" had erred with grammar. After all, does the = statement "Ralph's car is red" translate into "Ralph is car is red"? = But upon leafing through the 'ole Webster's, I find that indeed "who's' = is the abbreviation for "who is" and not listed as a possessive form of = the pronoun "who". "Whose" is the correct word for my last post. If = only my PC had a "syntax check" along with the spellcheck (which allowed = "understandible" just recently!). Gosh, all these silly quirks in the = American version of the English language! = BC I asked: Who's Carwash Is It? Ralph responded: Who is carwash is it? What kind of language is this? "Who's" means "Who is." Ralph Nielsen =20 *Webster says 'who' and 'whom' are interchangeable thank goodness ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C3543C.2E67EE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Very nice snag = Ralph!  At=20 first glance I thought that the person who* I very = much admire=20 for his uncanny accuracy in, shall we say, "truth in literature" = had erred=20 with grammar.  After all, does the statement "Ralph's car is red" = translate=20 into "Ralph is car is red"?  But upon leafing through the 'ole = Webster's, I=20 find that indeed "who's' is the abbreviation for "who is" and not = listed as=20 a possessive form of the pronoun "who".  "Whose" is the correct = word for my=20 last post. If only my PC had a "syntax check" along = with the=20 spellcheck (which allowed "understandible"  just recently!).  = Gosh,=20 all these silly quirks in the American version of the English=20 language!
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;      =20 BC
 
 
I asked:  Who's = Carwash Is=20 It?
 
 
Ralph responded:
 
Who is carwash is it?
What kind of language is this? "Who's" = means "Who=20 is."
Ralph Nielsen
 
*Webster says 'who' and 'whom' are = interchangeable=20 thank goodness
------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C3543C.2E67EE80-- From timlohr@yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 20:45:50 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 12:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030727194550.4049.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Sunil, I meant the publication of the pics in Iraq and the middle east media of course. TL --- Sunil Ramalingam wrote: --------------------------------- I doubt the Iraqis you are talking about are going to be reading the Spokesman-Review. Sunil >From: Tim Lohrmann >To: Sunil Ramalingam >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai >Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 17:13:25 -0700 (PDT) > >Sunil, > What do you think about the rationale we hear so >much--the folks in Iraq are so paranoid Hussein and >his sons are going to eventually come back to power >that they are reluctant to get involved in any sort of >reconstruction efforts. > Is that a good reason for letting their corpses be >seen? > TL > > > > > >--- Sunil Ramalingam >wrote: > >--------------------------------- > >Carl, > >I think the Spokesman Review could have done without >those pictures. Steven A. Smith's note about the >decision-making process ends by saying, "But we >sincerely believe publication serves the interests of >the larger audience and the interests of history." > >It seems to me that if the S-R is interested in >serving a larger audience and history, they might >consider doing some reporting on the unravelling of >the rationales for this war. They could follow up on >Rumsfeld's comment that it was impossible to capture >the folks in that villa. I guess our ability to wait >people out has deteriorated since we got Old What's >His Name in Panama, back in the first Bush >Administration. Must be Clinton's fault. > >Perhaps they could write an article about whether our >government has any interest in taking any of the >Hussein family alive. By now it ought to be clear that >we have no intention. Whenever we think we know where >he is, everything and everyone in the vicinity gets >blown up. Hey, in the interest of History, why not an >article about why our government might prefer not to >have Hussein alive and talking to reporters? > >Sunil Ramalingam > > > > >From: "Carl Westberg" > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: [Vision2020] Photos of Odai and Qusai > >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:58:50 -0700 > > > >This morning's Spokesman carried the pictures of the >bodies of > >Hussein's sons, with an explanation of why the >decision was made on > >the front page. I understand the Tribune did not. It >did slow me > >down a little bit while eating my orange chicken >right now, but I > >got over it. Should the pictures be published? Not? > > > > > > > > > >Carl Westberg Jr. > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months >FREE* > >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > >List services made available by First Step Internet, >serving the > >communities of the Palouse since 1994. > >http://www.fsr.net > >mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > >--------------------------------- >Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months >FREE*_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, >serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > >mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*._____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sun Jul 27 21:56:27 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:56:27 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Attacks Not From Saddam Loyalists? Message-ID: Visionaries: Five US troops now killed in attacks since Saddam's sons killed. The spin we get from the Bush administration is that Saddam loyalists are the source of the attacks against US troops. Of course the Bush administration wants to make what really is an ongoing war, though Bush declared the major combat phase over, seem to be about the evil Saddam regime, not a war against the Iraq people who are not accepting our plans to bring "democracy" to Iraq. But what about forces in Iraq who just do not want their country or clan or the home of their religious faith occupied by a foreign power? Or what about Iraq people who are simply out for revenge after their mother, grandfather, daughter, son, or wife etc. were killed by an American attack? I also have gathered that the home invasions US troops carry out to search for weapons or suspects are particularly intense violations of honor for men in Iraq, especially when their women are "exposed," as it were, to the troops invading their homes. Link below to a different view of the source of attacks against US troops in Iraq. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3099201.stm Ted _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From dkaag@turbonet.com Mon Jul 28 00:31:47 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:31:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Morgue photos of the "Bobbsey Twins"... Message-ID: <7DADFF1A-C08A-11D7-A7CF-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Visionaries: The U.S. government didn't make the decision to publish the photos of Hussein's "Bad Boys"... the media did. If they hadn't been in mainline papers like the SR and other reputable newspapers around the country , count on them having been in the supermarket tabloids, anyway. Who says that there is no market for bad taste? Besides, the pictures of Uday and his Bro, shaved for easier identification, pretty much nip in the bud the partisian carping that would have been in the media, both U.S. and foreign, if pictures had not been distributed... that the U.S. claimed to have had killed the sons of Saddam Hussein, but probably faked the whole thing for good publicity. Regards, Don Kaag From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jul 28 02:54:13 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:54:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Morgue photos of the "Bobbsey Twins"... Message-ID: Mr. Kaag Wrote: "The U.S. government didn't make the decision to publish the photos >of Hussein's "Bad Boys"... the media did. If they hadn't been in mainline >papers like the SR and other reputable newspapers around the country , >count on them having been in the supermarket tabloids, anyway." I don't agree with that based on what CNN, FOX, CBS, and countless number of newspaper and radio stations have reported. The United States Government took the pictures of the bodies and sent them to all the major news organizations. It was also military personnel that did the restructuring of the bodies. I think it would have been difficult for the media to take pictures and publish them if they were locked away in a military base and the pictures sealed as well. I don't think it would that easy to publish the pictures anyway considering that the data could be classified and any media that published them could be prosecuted. My major disagreement with the published photos was that we now make ourselves vulnerable to the idea of any future military conflict we have when the body of an American Soldier is captured by enemy forces can and will publish photos of them and send them to people in the United States. I also find it extremely ironic that the same political party that fights to limit and abolish fake violence and blood from children then shows the same thing for real is a country that has over 12 million children. Can anyone explain this? Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: Don Kaag >To: Vision2020 >Subject: [Vision2020] Morgue photos of the "Bobbsey Twins"... >Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:31:47 -0700 > >Visionaries: > >The U.S. government didn't make the decision to publish the photos of >Hussein's "Bad Boys"... the media did. If they hadn't been in mainline >papers like the SR and other reputable newspapers around the country , >count on them having been in the supermarket tabloids, anyway. > >Who says that there is no market for bad taste? > >Besides, the pictures of Uday and his Bro, shaved for easier >identification, pretty much nip in the bud the partisian carping that would >have been in the media, both U.S. and foreign, if pictures had not been >distributed... that the U.S. claimed to have had killed the sons of Saddam >Hussein, but probably faked the whole thing for good publicity. > >Regards, > >Don Kaag > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 04:00:50 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030728030050.15727.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> Mr. Ralph Nielson, No "evasion" of the issue; I did actually intend to address a different but related topic. Possibly you would have preferred me to start my post as follows: "Mr. Ralph Nielsen, on a different but related topic,...." Now, was your intent below to evade the questions I posed? But now since I have clearly stated the intent of my post, possibly you can now address it - or not. Cheers! John Harrell --- Ralph Nielsen wrote: > > On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 03:37 PM, John Harrell wrote: > > > Mr. Ralph Nielsen, > > > > Don't forget Thomas Jefferson's bible, I believe he wrote one also, or > > at > > least edited it. > > > > What about you, Ralph, how would you edit the Bible? Would it have one > > book, > > or more? What would the bible according to Ralph look like? Would you > > add > > more stuff according to your "infinite" wisdom? Or, would you rip > > stuff out? > > Or, would you add some stuff and rip some stuff out? > > > > Should the bible according to Ralph Nielson be THE bible and THE > > ultimate > > standard? Or should we all have one that we individually get to > > create, and > > therefore, we individually decide to follow? > > > > Cheers! > > John Harrell > > > > > > --- Ralph Nielsen wrote: > >>> From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com] > >>> Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:21 AM > >>> To: vision > >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state > >>> > >>> Mr. Nielsen, > >>>   > >>> even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you > >>> wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your > >>> rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to > >>> appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His > >>> Word and that He has preserved them throughout history for His > >>> Church, > >>> you would seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance. > >> > >> Joshua Nieuwsma, > >> Where do you get the idea that there are 66 books in the Bible? > >> I have a couple of Bibles that have 39 books. One of them has Hebrew > >> and English text on facing pages. > >> I have several Bibles in several languages that have 66 books in > >> them. > >> One of them is given royal approval by Her Majesty Queen Margrethe II > >> of Denmark. > >> I have a facsimile copy of the King James Bible of 1611. It contains > >> 72 books. It is called the Authorised Version because it was approved > >> by His Majesty King James I of England. I have other Bibles, two of > >> them in French, that also contain 72 books. I also have a Bible that > >> contains 74 books plus the Prayer of Manasseh. > >> So I can show you Bibles that have written royal approval but you > >> can't show me a Bible that has written divine approval. Even your > >> irrational mind can't help you find one. > >> Ralph Nielsen > >> > > Hi John, > I get the impression you are trying to evade the issue here. > Ralph Nielsen > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Mon Jul 28 04:01:07 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 03:01:07 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Morgue photos of the "Bobbsey Twins"... Message-ID: Visionaries: Those pictures prove nothing. The best evidence the US can provide is independent DNA analysis done by a team of international observers and scientists. Even claims of dental records proving identity can be faked or altered. As far as partisan carping about faking the whole thing, many people in Iraq don't believe those pictures anyways, and the main reason for publishing them was to convince people in Iraq of Saddam's sons deaths. Or was it to change the subject in the media from US military deaths, the quagmire in Iraq and the damage that could be done by the 9/11 report which just came out, to "progress" being made in stopping the Iraq insurgency, with grisly photos to grab everyone's attention? My partisan carping is not that the deaths are faked, it is that the deaths of Saddam's sons suddenly came down when the 9/11 report went public, a report which censors the Saudi involvement in 9/11, though many know that that is what is censored. We tried to link Saddam to 9/11 in some vague manner as part of the justification for war, so the fact that elements in Saudi Arabia are far more connected to 9/11 than even the fantasies of the Bush administration linked Iraq to 9/11, is the wrong spin for the Project for a New American Century propagandists. This must be kept off the headlines! Ted >From: Don Kaag >To: Vision2020 >Subject: [Vision2020] Morgue photos of the "Bobbsey Twins"... >Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:31:47 -0700 > >Visionaries: > >The U.S. government didn't make the decision to publish the photos of >Hussein's "Bad Boys"... the media did. If they hadn't been in mainline >papers like the SR and other reputable newspapers around the country , >count on them having been in the supermarket tabloids, anyway. > >Who says that there is no market for bad taste? > >Besides, the pictures of Uday and his Bro, shaved for easier >identification, pretty much nip in the bud the partisian carping that would >have been in the media, both U.S. and foreign, if pictures had not been >distributed... that the U.S. claimed to have had killed the sons of Saddam >Hussein, but probably faked the whole thing for good publicity. > >Regards, > >Don Kaag > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 04:07:49 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Pres. Clinton Speech To Congress On IRAQs WMD In-Reply-To: <20030725190243.62469.qmail@web10502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030728030749.90331.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> Scott, That is not the speech. You don't Google near as well as the "Google Queen" Melynda Huskey. But nice try. Also, regarding my edits, I had a request that I didn't edit near enough. A private reply to me by one of the more frequent posters suggested that I should have edited it down a whole lot. Cheers! John Harrell --- Scott Dredge wrote: > Full text of President Clinton's speech, without John > Harrell's editing, can be located at... > > http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/w960104.htm > > -Scott > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From jdanahy@turbonet.com Mon Jul 28 05:10:01 2003 From: jdanahy@turbonet.com (John Danahy) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:10:01 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes Message-ID: <000001c354be$20ae2930$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C35483.744F5130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I heard somewhere that the city of Moscow has decided to raise local property taxes by 4%. Is this true? And if so, Why? John ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C35483.744F5130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I heard somewhere that the city of = Moscow has decided to raise = local property taxes by 4%.  Is this true?  And if so, Why?

John

 

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C35483.744F5130-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jul 28 06:22:21 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:22:21 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes Message-ID: I am know I am viewed as major liberal but I would oppose that move. I think property taxes in Moscow are already outrageous and people can't afford to pay anymore. I think they need to look at other ways of raising money instead of unfairly and unjustly always picking on property owners. 25% of the population live on Campus, so they don't pay ANY property taxes. People that live off campus and own homes pay all the taxes. It does effect renters because they pay rent and covers the property tax. I think a tax on hotels, beer, services, and an increase in fines would be more appropriate for an increase. I think that homeowners are about to be taxed out of their homes pretty soon if this continues. Property tax doesn't work well in Moscow for two basic reasons. 1) Homes are over valued because students can cram five people into an apartment with two rooms and pay $1000. A family of four with one full time worker and a part time worker can't afford $1000 in rent. However, renters will charge all they can and students will pay it. 2) We refuse to build more housing. Moscow has a 99% occupancy rate. When there are no choices for a place to stay rent goes up and the standard of living goes down. If we would build more housing we could spread the burden of schools, the hospital, fire departments, and of city services out a little bit more rather than placing the burden on a small percentage of the population. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: "John Danahy" >To: "Vision2020" >Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes >Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:10:01 -0700 > >I heard somewhere that the city of Moscow has decided to raise local >property taxes by 4%. Is this true? And if so, Why? > >John > > > _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From strand@pacsim.com Mon Jul 28 06:56:41 2003 From: strand@pacsim.com (Bill Strand) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:56:41 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003b01c354cd$0b4a3f70$2802a8c0@engstrand> Donovan, The issue of high property taxes will remain as long as the city of Moscow remains dependent upon entities such as the University of Idaho and Gritman that pay no property taxes. Think about the land that has come off the tax rolls in the last few years (such as Cavanaugh's Landing). This means that a larger percentage of property taxes will be placed on homeowners. I was once told that Latah County has one of the highest proportion of taxes coming from the homeowners in all of Idaho. The answer isn't to tax the students and/or visitors to Moscow - the answer is to develop the business community in this town. These entities require the minimum amount of increased services (fire, hospital, water, garbage, etc...) and thus have the highest return on investment for their taxes. However, this takes a long term commitment in a wide range of areas. Bill Strand From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Mon Jul 28 07:14:11 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 02:14:11 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes Message-ID: <1a4.17d585e1.2c561933@aol.com> --part1_1a4.17d585e1.2c561933_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The best and only real solution is to get a property tax ordinance similar to Prop 13 in California. You force the politicians to live within their budgets. Just like you. Just like me. Politicians think that our pockets have too much money in them and they want to move it to their special agendas. Hence, over taxation. If you read my solutions for the school district that would also help to eliminate some of the burden. Corporations that are on the verge of bankruptcy bring in a new CEO just for the privilege of taking the heat of trimming all the fat. A lot of people on the school board today don't have enough guts to do what is financially prudent. Same with the city. Some pet projects need to stay on the drawing board and never leave it. California's financial woes today have absolutely nothing to do with Prop 13. I don''t want to hear about it. I think any 8 year old child who gets an allowance can tell ya exactly what he can spend his allowance on. He doesn't have the ability to reach into anybody else's pocket so that he can spend twice as much as he can afford. I think it is high time that everybody lives within their budget. Phil --part1_1a4.17d585e1.2c561933_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The best and only real solution is to get a property t= ax ordinance similar to Prop 13 in California. You force the politicians to=20= live within their budgets. Just like you. Just like me. Politicians think th= at our pockets have too much money in them and they want to move it to their= special agendas. Hence, over taxation. If you read my solutions for the sch= ool district that would also help to eliminate some of the burden.

Corporations that are on the verge of bankruptcy bring in a new CEO just for= the privilege of taking the heat of trimming all the fat. A lot of people o= n the school board today don't have enough guts to do what is financially pr= udent. Same with the city. Some pet projects need to stay on the drawing boa= rd and never leave it. California's financial woes today have absolutely not= hing to do with Prop 13. I don''t want to hear about it.

I think any 8 year old child who gets an allowance can tell ya exactly what=20= he can spend his allowance on. He doesn't have the ability to reach into any= body else's pocket so that he can spend twice as much as he can afford. I th= ink it is high time that everybody lives within their budget.

Phil --part1_1a4.17d585e1.2c561933_boundary-- From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jul 28 07:23:18 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:23:18 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes References: <003b01c354cd$0b4a3f70$2802a8c0@engstrand> Message-ID: <00e201c354d0$bca693b0$cb01a8c0@Laptop2> > The answer isn't to tax the students and/or visitors to Moscow - the > answer is to develop the business community in this town. These entities > require the minimum amount of increased services (fire, hospital, water, > garbage, etc...) and thus have the highest return on investment for > their taxes. > > However, this takes a long term commitment in a wide range of areas. Bill, The problem with this logic is that there is a vocal minority that is anti-business in Moscow. If you are going to be anti-business, and yet want to increase the amount of cash coming into the city coffers, that forces you (in a college town) to raise the property taxes. Phil's Email concerning this was right-on the money. Our politicians (and we) need to learn to live within our means -- and not try "keeping up with the Joneses". Best, Dale From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jul 28 09:40:39 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:40:39 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes Message-ID: Mr. Strand, I agree with you in part. We must provide more business opportunities in Moscow. I also agree that Moscow remains to dependant on the University. Where I disagree is where you have one student that contributes to the running of Moscow and another doesn't. One business pays taxes and another doesn't. One farmer pays taxes and another doesn't. One restaurant pays taxes to the community and another doesn't. I don't like that concept. I think it is unjust. I am student. I choose to live off campus for two reasons. One, Moscow is my hometown and I want to help support it. Second, it is actually cheaper to live off campus than on campus. What many people don't realize is that the University has established "legal domain" over many services and products. A few examples are computers and health insurance. The University unfairly claims rights of products and services that render other Moscow community businesses profitless. I find it unjust for a health insurance company to pay money to a system that in turn creates health insurance that is cheaper than what they can provide. Likewise, computer companies have to pay the University which requires some students to buy computers from them. To me, this is like requiring Safeway to pay a certain percentage of its' income to Tidyman's so they can make their prices cheaper than Safeway. This kills businesses. It is a monopoly that can't be fought. The reason I support more businesses to come in is to lessen our dependence on the University so that we can say "NO" to the University every time it wants something. To many politicians in Moscow cave into the University demands that hurt students and residents of Moscow. We need to have Resident Halls run and managed by Moscow Businesses. We need to have the University do Health Insurance through local and Idaho businesses. We need to have all construction done by area workers in Idaho. We need to have computers purchased through Moscow and/or Idaho computer companies. We need to have all the University banking go through local area branches. Moscow Businesses are in competition with the University. I don't think this economy can grow as long the University sucks up the profit margin and gives all profits to national and foreign corporations or wastes it on water fountains and poorly constructed building that cost a fortune. I have been to meetings on campus where they told the students not to buy from local businesses. The University has policies and contracts that prevent local businesses from even being allowed to compete for business from Students. Any student that lives on campus is required to put money on a Vandal Card. The Vandal Card cannot be used off campus. I also don't think businesses like Naylor Farms are the solution either. Naylor Farms will use more water than the entire cities of Pullman and Moscow combined. The area does not have the resources nor can we tolerate the environmental damage it would bring. Moscow needs to grow. But it needs to grow intelligently and within the structure of Moscow culture. I don't want Moscow changing its' face or turning into another American sprawled suburb. Moscow is Unique. I hope to keep its' flavor. Unfortunately, the University has become a corporation and not a school, and it hijacking the local community from being able to move in the friendly direction of helping Moscow residents and more toward the interests of the University of Idaho Incorporated to make more money and expand to an ever fattening bureaucracy that has the purpose of only feeding itself even more. This must stop for any Moscow Community businesses to move in here and be able to survive. We must first stop the annihilation of businesses before creating new ones. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: "Bill Strand" >To: "'Donovan Arnold'" , , > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city tazes >Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:56:41 -0700 > >Donovan, > >The issue of high property taxes will remain as long as the city of >Moscow remains dependent upon entities such as the University of Idaho >and Gritman that pay no property taxes. Think about the land that has >come off the tax rolls in the last few years (such as Cavanaugh's >Landing). This means that a larger percentage of property taxes will be >placed on homeowners. I was once told that Latah County has one of the >highest proportion of taxes coming from the homeowners in all of Idaho. > >The answer isn't to tax the students and/or visitors to Moscow - the >answer is to develop the business community in this town. These entities >require the minimum amount of increased services (fire, hospital, water, >garbage, etc...) and thus have the highest return on investment for >their taxes. > >However, this takes a long term commitment in a wide range of areas. > >Bill Strand > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From nielsen@uidaho.edu Mon Jul 28 16:48:43 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:48:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Bible. Was Bible in school In-Reply-To: <20030728030532.88270.84261.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: Mr. John Harrell, Unlike Thomas Jefferson, I have never had any desire to edit any existing version of the Bible. I read them all. The editor of one edition of the so-called Jefferson Bible is Forrest Church, the son of the late Senator Frank Church of Idaho. I do however recommend The Complete Gospels. Annotated scholars version. Robert J. Miller, editor. (HarperSanFrancisco, c1992). It contains the 4 canonical gospels, including additions to Mark and John, plus the Sayings Gospel Q, the long-buried Gospel of Thomas, and various other gospels and fragments. They are all translated into contemporary American English with introductions and footnotes. Ralph Nielsen > From: John Harrell > Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:00:50 PM US/Pacific > To: Ralph Nielsen > Cc: vision2020 > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school > > > Mr. Ralph Nielson, > > No "evasion" of the issue; I did actually intend to address a different > but related topic. > > Possibly you would have preferred me to start my post as follows: > "Mr. Ralph Nielsen, on a different but related topic,...." > > Now, was your intent below to evade the questions I posed? But now > since > I have clearly stated the intent of my post, possibly you can now > address > it - or not. > > Cheers! > John Harrell > > > > > > --- Ralph Nielsen wrote: >> >> On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 03:37 PM, John Harrell wrote: >> >>> Mr. Ralph Nielsen, >>> >>> Don't forget Thomas Jefferson's bible, I believe he wrote one also, >>> or >>> at >>> least edited it. >>> >>> What about you, Ralph, how would you edit the Bible? Would it have >>> one >>> book, >>> or more? What would the bible according to Ralph look like? Would you >>> add >>> more stuff according to your "infinite" wisdom? Or, would you rip >>> stuff out? >>> Or, would you add some stuff and rip some stuff out? >>> >>> Should the bible according to Ralph Nielson be THE bible and THE >>> ultimate >>> standard? Or should we all have one that we individually get to >>> create, and >>> therefore, we individually decide to follow? >>> >>> Cheers! >>> John Harrell >>> From edc@moscow.com Mon Jul 28 17:55:51 2003 From: edc@moscow.com (Barbara Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:55:51 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city taxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All, Please be aware that the university of Idaho transfers more than $1 million per year to the City of Moscow to cover police expenses, etc. The University also paid for 1/2 of the wastewater treatment plant, and maintains all the City streets located on campus. The University has no "legal domain" over health insurance - a student may purchase health insurance from any carrier - but they must have insurance. Earlier this year, the University met with local builders in a meeting sponsored by the City of Moscow. They told the local communities exactly what housing needs the University will have over the next 10 years. But, no private developer can build apartment complexes that they rent for less than market. Most students and families that live on campus do so because they cannot afford to live in Moscow. It is only cheaper to live off campus if you are single - what about married graduate and law students, many of whom have children? The University supported and supports legislation to allow the use of the Vandal Card off campus. Many in the banking industry do not. If students can use their vandal card off campus - will they still opt for local bank accounts. No decision or change happens in a vacuum. What may be good for one group of businesses may devastate another group. Ultimately, Moscow needs to increase its business base and decide to live within its means. That may include limited the number of parks and programs operated by the City. Also, how many buildings have been removed from he tax roles by the City of Moscow in the past three years? But on the other side of the coin, we save about $4 per year having a volunteer fire department. It is not simply a University issue. We have lots of government - federal, state, county, local - in Moscow and Latah county that do not pay taxes. Please take a look at your property tax bill - what percentage goes to what governmental entity? It is difficult for government to live within its means, citizens always want more services - but lower taxes. Barbara -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 1:41 AM To: strand@pacsim.com; jdanahy@turbonet.com; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city tazes Mr. Strand, I agree with you in part. We must provide more business opportunities in Moscow. I also agree that Moscow remains to dependant on the University. Where I disagree is where you have one student that contributes to the running of Moscow and another doesn't. One business pays taxes and another doesn't. One farmer pays taxes and another doesn't. One restaurant pays taxes to the community and another doesn't. I don't like that concept. I think it is unjust. I am student. I choose to live off campus for two reasons. One, Moscow is my hometown and I want to help support it. Second, it is actually cheaper to live off campus than on campus. What many people don't realize is that the University has established "legal domain" over many services and products. A few examples are computers and health insurance. The University unfairly claims rights of products and services that render other Moscow community businesses profitless. I find it unjust for a health insurance company to pay money to a system that in turn creates health insurance that is cheaper than what they can provide. Likewise, computer companies have to pay the University which requires some students to buy computers from them. To me, this is like requiring Safeway to pay a certain percentage of its' income to Tidyman's so they can make their prices cheaper than Safeway. This kills businesses. It is a monopoly that can't be fought. The reason I support more businesses to come in is to lessen our dependence on the University so that we can say "NO" to the University every time it wants something. To many politicians in Moscow cave into the University demands that hurt students and residents of Moscow. We need to have Resident Halls run and managed by Moscow Businesses. We need to have the University do Health Insurance through local and Idaho businesses. We need to have all construction done by area workers in Idaho. We need to have computers purchased through Moscow and/or Idaho computer companies. We need to have all the University banking go through local area branches. Moscow Businesses are in competition with the University. I don't think this economy can grow as long the University sucks up the profit margin and gives all profits to national and foreign corporations or wastes it on water fountains and poorly constructed building that cost a fortune. I have been to meetings on campus where they told the students not to buy from local businesses. The University has policies and contracts that prevent local businesses from even being allowed to compete for business from Students. Any student that lives on campus is required to put money on a Vandal Card. The Vandal Card cannot be used off campus. I also don't think businesses like Naylor Farms are the solution either. Naylor Farms will use more water than the entire cities of Pullman and Moscow combined. The area does not have the resources nor can we tolerate the environmental damage it would bring. Moscow needs to grow. But it needs to grow intelligently and within the structure of Moscow culture. I don't want Moscow changing its' face or turning into another American sprawled suburb. Moscow is Unique. I hope to keep its' flavor. Unfortunately, the University has become a corporation and not a school, and it hijacking the local community from being able to move in the friendly direction of helping Moscow residents and more toward the interests of the University of Idaho Incorporated to make more money and expand to an ever fattening bureaucracy that has the purpose of only feeding itself even more. This must stop for any Moscow Community businesses to move in here and be able to survive. We must first stop the annihilation of businesses before creating new ones. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: "Bill Strand" >To: "'Donovan Arnold'" , , > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city tazes >Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:56:41 -0700 > >Donovan, > >The issue of high property taxes will remain as long as the city of >Moscow remains dependent upon entities such as the University of Idaho >and Gritman that pay no property taxes. Think about the land that has >come off the tax rolls in the last few years (such as Cavanaugh's >Landing). This means that a larger percentage of property taxes will be >placed on homeowners. I was once told that Latah County has one of the >highest proportion of taxes coming from the homeowners in all of Idaho. > >The answer isn't to tax the students and/or visitors to Moscow - the >answer is to develop the business community in this town. These entities >require the minimum amount of increased services (fire, hospital, water, >garbage, etc...) and thus have the highest return on investment for >their taxes. > >However, this takes a long term commitment in a wide range of areas. > >Bill Strand > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 18:04:30 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Re: CHRIST church - KNOCKOUT!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030728170430.91127.qmail@web80604.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1664734754-1059411870=:88541 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii HAW HAW!! thanks for revealing yourself, josh gibbs, you're no Christian. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Moscow) Joshua Gibbs wrote: Head Prophet, When you're the president, in the future, are you going to keep that fried hair you have when you go on television to address the nation? I tell you what, promise me you'll keep the goofy hair, and I'll totally vote for you. And quit being jealous of Doug Wilson. You know you'd give your good spot at the shelter for a single follower. Oh Snap, Josh _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1664734754-1059411870=:88541 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
HAW HAW!!  thanks for revealing yourself, josh gibbs, you're no Christian.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Moscow)

Joshua Gibbs <ridethesaintedrhythms@hotmail.com> wrote:

Head Prophet,

When you're the president, in the future, are you going to keep that fried
hair you have when you go on television to address the nation? I tell you
what, promise me you'll keep the goofy hair, and I'll totally vote for you.

And quit being jealous of Doug Wilson. You know you'd give your good spot at
the shelter for a single follower.

Oh Snap,
Josh

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1664734754-1059411870=:88541-- From rforce@moscow.com Mon Jul 28 18:08:13 2003 From: rforce@moscow.com (Ron Force) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:08:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The use of the Vandal card as a "cash card" is strictly voluntary--students are not required to have cash in the system. Its use off-campus has repeatedly been vetoed by Idaho banking corporations. ******************************************** Ron Force rforce@moscow.com Moscow Idaho USA ******************************************** > Any student that lives on campus is required to put money on a > Vandal Card. > The Vandal Card cannot be used off campus. From sdredge@yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 20:12:10 2003 From: sdredge@yahoo.com (Scott Dredge) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] First Public Gay High School in the U.S. to Open in NYC Message-ID: <20030728191210.17384.qmail@web10508.mail.yahoo.com> http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/gayschool030728.html From jon@n-k-ins.com Mon Jul 28 20:46:58 2003 From: jon@n-k-ins.com (Jon Kimberling) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:46:58 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes References: <000001c354be$20ae2930$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> Message-ID: <010b01c35541$01e02d90$0da8a8c0@JON> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0108_01C35506.55481D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John- the city budget for the coming year provides for the following = increases: 3% property tax increase(as allowed by State law) $25,436 of previously available but not taken property tax- this is = catch up for an overly conservative estimate made a year ago on the = growth of our tax base 4% for sewer rates 4% for water rates I would note that prior to this year the City had taken a total of 10% = of the 24% available over the last 8 years. Other sister institutions in = the state have consistently taken their 3% annually. One of the reasons for the increase is that the City is receiving = reduced revenues from the State. Specifically, our revenues from the = State including state-share revenues, sales tax and highway user fees = are all lagging. I'm hopeful that last months positive revenue report = from the State is the beginning of a positive trend about the business = climate within the state. Thanks for the question. Jon Kimberling ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Danahy=20 To: Vision2020=20 Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes I heard somewhere that the city of Moscow has decided to raise local = property taxes by 4%. Is this true? And if so, Why? John ------=_NextPart_000_0108_01C35506.55481D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John- the city budget for the coming = year provides=20 for the following increases:
 
3% property tax increase(as allowed by = State=20 law)
$25,436 of previously available = but not taken=20 property tax- this is catch up for an overly conservative estimate made = a year=20 ago on the growth of our tax base
4% for sewer rates
4% for water rates
 
I would note that prior to this = year the City=20 had taken a total of 10% of the 24% available over the last 8 years. = Other=20 sister institutions in the state have consistently taken their 3%=20 annually.
 
One of the reasons for the = increase is that=20 the City is receiving reduced revenues from the State.=20 Specifically, our revenues from the State including = state-share=20 revenues, sales tax and highway user fees=20 are all lagging. I'm hopeful that last months positive revenue report = from the=20 State is the beginning of a positive trend about the business climate = within the=20 state.
 
Thanks for the question.
 
Jon Kimberling
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Danahy
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 = 9:10 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] city = tazes

I heard somewhere that = the city of=20 Moscow has decided to raise local property = taxes by=20 4%.  Is this true?  And if so, Why?

John

 

------=_NextPart_000_0108_01C35506.55481D20-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 20:46:20 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] hey, josh Message-ID: <20030728194620.40090.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> --0-341175131-1059421580=:38847 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hi, josh: i've only had a chance for one-liner style responses to your stuff, so i wanted to get you an opportunity to talk with me for real. i mean, why not let wilson defend wilson, right? you should know better than to think that you making fun of the way i look is going to make any difference in my life. kind of childish really, i mean we're talking about some heavy issues with regards to doug wilson, right? fraud, theft, illegal use of 501 3(c) status, child abuse. yes, i have lived at sojourner's, mostly to investigate its anti-Christian agenda. my verdict? it should be shut down. but about the way i present myself in public, i mean, who's to say that i'm not just putting the way i am together, just so that i can be overlooked and looked down upon? i mean, i'm not, but you got to agree that the only way i can go is up from here...and the only way doug wilson can go is down from here. right? besides, the credenda isn't a horrible publication: i think that it's a worthy publication that will outlast doug wilson's cult here in moscow. i mean, i think that doug jones is a decent fellow, and that he'll be able to succeed where doug wilson fails: with truth, Christ and honesty. i think that you fail there, too, josh, after all, i have never tried to lead another person to believe that i was "nicholas van orton" or the like: LIKE YOU DID. when i mocked doug wilson's writing style, i in no way pretended i was him - i even got an e-mail response from a LADY ADMIRER OF DOUG WILSON's, but I did not reply in kind, because I WAS NOT IMPERSONATING HIM, JUST MOCKING HIM. but then, doug wilson's slaving followers have a typically corrupted sense of humor, and so you wouldn't understand true mockery: you like to DEGRADE others, not just mock them. anyway, feel free to drop me a line when you're not feeling aggressive, angry and in denial about who doug wilson is: the man would be a killer if he could, and maybe all that money he's already sent to white supremacist groups has already caused a death or two. but you don't care about facts, now, do you? well, then, neither does doug wilson. snap back at ya! douglas stambler (on your brain, fool...) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-341175131-1059421580=:38847 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
hi, josh:
 
i've only had a chance for one-liner style responses to your stuff, so i wanted to get you an opportunity to talk with me for real.  i mean, why not let wilson defend wilson, right?  you should know better than to think that you making fun of the way i look is going to make any difference in my life.  kind of childish really, i mean we're talking about some heavy issues with regards to doug wilson, right?  fraud, theft, illegal use of 501 3(c) status, child abuse. 
 
yes, i have lived at sojourner's, mostly to investigate its anti-Christian agenda.  my verdict?  it should be shut down.  but about the way i present myself in public, i mean, who's to say that i'm not just putting the way i am together, just so that i can be overlooked and looked down upon?  i mean, i'm not, but you got to agree that the only way i can go is up from here...and the only way doug wilson can go is down from here. right?
 
besides, the credenda isn't a horrible publication: i think that it's a worthy publication that will outlast doug wilson's cult here in moscow.  i mean, i think that doug jones is a decent fellow, and that he'll be able to succeed where doug wilson fails: with truth, Christ and honesty.  i think that you fail there, too, josh, after all, i have never tried to lead another person to believe that i was "nicholas van orton" or the like: LIKE YOU DID.  when i mocked doug wilson's writing style, i in no way pretended i was him - i even got an e-mail response from a LADY ADMIRER OF DOUG WILSON's, but I did not reply in kind, because I WAS NOT IMPERSONATING HIM, JUST MOCKING HIM.  but then, doug wilson's slaving followers have a typically corrupted sense of humor, and so you wouldn't understand true mockery: you like to DEGRADE others, not just mock them. 
 
anyway, feel free to drop me a line when you're not feeling aggressive, angry and in denial about who doug wilson is: the man would be a killer if he could, and maybe all that money he's already sent to white supremacist groups has already caused a death or two.  but you don't care about facts, now, do you?  well, then, neither does doug wilson.
 
snap back at ya!
douglas stambler
(on your brain, fool...)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-341175131-1059421580=:38847-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jul 28 22:18:44 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:18:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city taxes Message-ID: Barbara, I have the greatest respect for you. I voted for you, and will again. However, you are incorrect about your interpretation and understanding about the operation and costs to students and taxpayers at the University of Idaho. I have all the documentation to prove what I am saying and would be happy to take you around the University. You are listening to what UI Administrators are publishing and saying. I spent 3 years working with Dan Schoenberg, the head of Auxiliary Services, which runs the vandal cards, streets, parking, and housing. I also spent two years working with Administrators on the students Health Insurance. I would be happy to produce all the documentation I have saved for the last three years working with students, administrators, and other government officials. I will run down each of your points and explain where you misunderstand. "the university of Idaho transfers more than $1 million >per year to the City of Moscow to cover police expenses, etc." Yes, this is true, but they produce more than 1/2 the costs to the Police department. " University also paid for 1/2 of the wastewater treatment plant" The University of Idaho Fisheries Department alone uses more than 40% of the water in Moscow. Combine that with all other water uses it has for gardens and occupants and other departments and it does not cover its share of the need for water treatment plant. "and maintains all the City streets located on campus" Which is no maintenance at all. The University acquired the "rights" to the streets so they could charge $45 a parking space. See here: http://www.info.uidaho.edu/parking/default.asp?page=map and here: http://www.info.uidaho.edu/parking/default.asp?page=regs# under purple permit.They say they are to maintain it. When in facts there are NO real requirements to maintain the road. They are not required to do anything to the road except rake the leaves once a year. Nor are they required to remove snow from the streets. Sidewalks are also not under the jurisdiction, the owners of the property in front of the sidewalks are legally required to maintain that area. What this means is that even though the Moscow taxpayer bought the roads and paid for there construction, they would have to buy a parking permit to park there because the University has the rights to the road. They paid zero in the original construction of the road. "The University has no "legal domain" over health insurance - a student may purchase health insurance from any carrier - but they must have insurance." This is incorrect as well. Any student that cannot meet the requirements of the University is automatically enrolled in the "University of Idaho" "Student Health Insurance Program (SHIP)". Those requirements are designed so that only dependant students that are covered by more extensive coverage plans such a "Blue Cross" are allowed out of the requirement. The University also uses tax dollars to promote the program over local coverage and try to sell it to parents that are sending their children to the University even if they already have the qualifying Health Insurance and/or better health insurance. In addition, the Health Insurance does not cover dental, skin, and eyes. These are the leading problems and costs of students at the University. That is probably why they cut them out of the program. Students had this coverage before this program was required. Moscow Dentists were willing to work with the University to allow students health insurance of dental coverage at a very low rate. However, the University denied this opportunity for the students because it opted to go with a national insurance provider that would not allow local Dentists to be a part of the plan. The only thing the University Health Insurance program is good for is for purchasing drugs and if you are in a horrible accident. I insist that if you don't believe this to go to any dentist office in Moscow or at least visit this site: www.uidaho.edu/ship/PDF/SHIPenrollmentform.pdf "But, no private developer can build apartment complexes that they rent for less than market." This is incorrect, in fact, the total opposite is true. The Moscow City council just approved a low income housing project that will be located at the South entrance of Moscow off of Highway 95 in the next year. Rent here will be about $370 for a two bedroom apartment. They are making a profit. You are ignoring three important facts, one, that the University asks for requirements of Builders that are not needed by the majority of students and will cost huge amounts of money. Second, that builders are going to complain about what they can rent an apartment for on the market no matter what. Go to Taylor avenue, it is full of tiny apartments that were built many years ago and the rent is outrageous check this site out: . Just run the numbers, a complex that has 6 unites and rents each one for $1000 dollars will bring in $72,000 a year. Unless you are getting a 15% interest rate on your loan you have to make a profit on a 20 year loan. Third, the University misconstrues to total costs of living in a resident hall versus that of an off campus apartment. A Student living in a resident hall sharing a room with one other student, and a rest room with an adjoining room of two others pays $6000 for nine months for room and board. That is $666 a month for just the rent and food. Now, those same four students get a two bedroom apartment for $1000 they pay $250 each for rent, about $50 for utilities a piece, $6 for local phone, about $5 for basic cabal and another $100 for food. That amount equals $411 a month. The University plays with the numbers. When it states the rent, it excludes the meal plan they are required to buy when living in the Resident Halls. So rather than saying it costs in $6000, they can say it costs $4000. They than use the term "school year" rather than month. That is cheaper on paper. But not in reality. The fact is 90-95% of students move out of the Resident Halls after the first year contract is up after they figure this out. The ones that usually stay are students that get Resident Hall paying positions, don't have cars or computers, enjoy the social life, or have parents that refuse to pay for them to move out. A 5% return rate is a sign of something when 95%+ of students are first year students at the University. See this site: "what about married graduate and law students, many of whom have children?" Oh, I would love to give you some papers on the University Budget. I would also like to take you on a tour of Family Housing and Graduate Housing. I could introduce you to some people and take you into some apartments. You would not be happy and your image of the University would change. Graduate housing is NOT Cheaper. Family Housing is cheaper. But the conditions that 3/4 of them are living in are well below what they are paying. They have mold on the ceilings, broken utility boxes, loose railings, and virtually no lighting. The bark on the playground is 6 inches long, hard, and has gagged edges. I had to fight for three months to get a piece of slide replaced that had a hole large enough for a childs leg to fall through. I had to fight for young Asia women to get another apartment elsewhere on campus after she moved out the apartment it was condemned because the ground it was build on. Another lady had the city sewer system go up her drain and it spilled all over inside her apartment. Another lady pulled her child off the floor and his knees were all scratched and sore from the carpet of an apartment she just moved into. I have a million stories to tell and would love to tell them all to you. One might think that Family Housing is subsidized by other Student Housing. But in fact it is the opposite. South Side Vista Apartments in Family housing are so old that the University has them paid off. The money that they pay does not go to repair and maintenance of the old mold infested apartments. In turn it goes to Resident Halls. The Resident Halls pay out to Sodexho, which takes the profit of $120,000 a year. Almost the exact amount of money that South Hill Vista pays in total rent after expenses are paid in Family Housing. That $120,000 should go back to family housing to maintain it not to some international corporation the invested in third world country prisons that have many prisoners that were not even guilty of a crime and live in conditions that are so horrible many people all across the world have protested. I have a copy of the Sodexho contract if you would like to see it or copy it. It is not online and is difficult to get a hold of. You have to fill out a request form giving your reasons and wait about 3 months. Two other ASUI Senators before me could not get a copy. I never got it from the office I applied for it, I had to ask Director Schoenberg for the copy. "The University supported and supports legislation to allow the use of the >Vandal Card off campus. Many in the banking industry do not." You are incorrect about this too, in part, the important part. The part you are correct about is the part of the Vandal Card being used as a credit card or checking card. This competes with local businesses. The Banks have no problem with making the Vandal Card run by the Banks. This would in fact benefit from it. ASUI and UI Lobbied to have the banking laws changed,we dropped our idea when the students and banks agreed to change our tactic of lobbing for private banks to take over the Vandal Card program. It is the University that is blocking this agreement. The University will not allow private banks to take over the Vandal Card program and make a profit. Although it would make a profit, it would cost less for students because the Private Banks can run the program for less and students could buy products off campus for cheaper than on campus. "No decision or change happens in a vacuum. What may be good for >one group of businesses may devastate another group." I agree, but if someone has to be devastated, let us choose to devastate national corporations where Moscow is only .0000001% of the profit versus devastating local businesses where jobs are located in the community. "Ultimately, Moscow needs to increase its business base and decide to live >within its means" I agree, but you can't just say it, we have to have a plan. My idea is to allow businesses not to have to compete with the University which is subsidized by the State taxpayer. "We have lots of government - federal, state, county, local - in Moscow and Latah county that >do not pay taxes." Yes, but they provide direct services for the community. The University is not providing services by cornering the market in Health Insurance, Computers, and Housing. the University provides jobs, which helps the city of Moscow. But when it doesn't go much beyond that in helping. It could allow local businesses in on the sales of Health Insurance, computers, food, housing, and many other services and products that it purchases from non-local businesses. I don't think we should be allowing the University to walk all over people. Many Moscow residents are suffering from Battered Wife Syndrome when it comes to their rights. Just because the University brings us a pay check, doesn't mean it has the right to take businesses away, take our water, and get what ever it demands upon the people of Moscow. Like I said, when was the last time a Moscow Politician said "no" to the University instead of giving them what ever they wanted. I can't recall a time in the 10 years they did this. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: "Barbara Richardson" >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , >, >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city taxes >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:55:51 -0700 > >All, > >Please be aware that the university of Idaho transfers more than $1 million >per year to the City of Moscow to cover police expenses, etc. The >University also paid for 1/2 of the wastewater treatment plant, and >maintains all the City streets located on campus. The University has no >"legal domain" over health insurance - a student may purchase health >insurance from any carrier - but they must have insurance. > >Earlier this year, the University met with local builders in a meeting >sponsored by the City of Moscow. They told the local communities exactly >what housing needs the University will have over the next 10 years. But, >no >private developer can build apartment complexes that they rent for less >than >market. Most students and families that live on campus do so because they >cannot afford to live in Moscow. It is only cheaper to live off campus if >you are single - what about married graduate and law students, many of whom >have children? > >The University supported and supports legislation to allow the use of the >Vandal Card off campus. Many in the banking industry do not. If students >can use their vandal card off campus - will they still opt for local bank >accounts. No decision or change happens in a vacuum. What may be good for >one group of businesses may devastate another group. > >Ultimately, Moscow needs to increase its business base and decide to live >within its means. That may include limited the number of parks and >programs >operated by the City. Also, how many buildings have been removed from he >tax roles by the City of Moscow in the past three years? But on the other >side of the coin, we save about $4 per year having a volunteer fire >department. It is not simply a University issue. We have lots of >government - federal, state, county, local - in Moscow and Latah county >that >do not pay taxes. Please take a look at your property tax bill - what >percentage goes to what governmental entity? > >It is difficult for government to live within its means, citizens always >want more services - but lower taxes. > >Barbara > >-----Original Message----- >From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On >Behalf Of Donovan Arnold >Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 1:41 AM >To: strand@pacsim.com; jdanahy@turbonet.com; vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city tazes > > >Mr. Strand, > >I agree with you in part. We must provide more business opportunities in >Moscow. I also agree that Moscow remains to dependant on the University. > >Where I disagree is where you have one student that contributes to the >running of Moscow and another doesn't. One business pays taxes and another >doesn't. One farmer pays taxes and another doesn't. One restaurant pays >taxes to the community and another doesn't. I don't like that concept. I >think it is unjust. I am student. I choose to live off campus for two >reasons. One, Moscow is my hometown and I want to help support it. Second, >it is actually cheaper to live off campus than on campus. > >What many people don't realize is that the University has established >"legal >domain" over many services and products. A few examples are computers and >health insurance. The University unfairly claims rights of products and >services that render other Moscow community businesses profitless. > >I find it unjust for a health insurance company to pay money to a system >that in turn creates health insurance that is cheaper than what they can >provide. Likewise, computer companies have to pay the University which >requires some students to buy computers from them. To me, this is like >requiring Safeway to pay a certain percentage of its' income to Tidyman's >so >they can make their prices cheaper than Safeway. This kills businesses. It >is a monopoly that can't be fought. > >The reason I support more businesses to come in is to lessen our dependence >on the University so that we can say "NO" to the University every time it >wants something. To many politicians in Moscow cave into the University >demands that hurt students and residents of Moscow. > >We need to have Resident Halls run and managed by Moscow Businesses. We >need >to have the University do Health Insurance through local and Idaho >businesses. We need to have all construction done by area workers in Idaho. >We need to have computers purchased through Moscow and/or Idaho computer >companies. We need to have all the University banking go through local area >branches. > >Moscow Businesses are in competition with the University. I don't think >this >economy can grow as long the University sucks up the profit margin and >gives >all profits to national and foreign corporations or wastes it on water >fountains and poorly constructed building that cost a fortune. I have been >to meetings on campus where they told the students not to buy from local >businesses. The University has policies and contracts that prevent local >businesses from even being allowed to compete for business from Students. >Any student that lives on campus is required to put money on a Vandal Card. >The Vandal Card cannot be used off campus. > >I also don't think businesses like Naylor Farms are the solution either. >Naylor Farms will use more water than the entire cities of Pullman and >Moscow combined. The area does not have the resources nor can we tolerate >the environmental damage it would bring. > >Moscow needs to grow. But it needs to grow intelligently and within the >structure of Moscow culture. I don't want Moscow changing its' face or >turning into another American sprawled suburb. Moscow is Unique. I hope to >keep its' flavor. Unfortunately, the University has become a corporation >and >not a school, and it hijacking the local community from being able to move >in the friendly direction of helping Moscow residents and more toward the >interests of the University of Idaho Incorporated to make more money and >expand to an ever fattening bureaucracy that has the purpose of only >feeding >itself even more. This must stop for any Moscow Community businesses to >move >in here and be able to survive. We must first stop the annihilation of >businesses before creating new ones. > >Thanks! > >Donovan J Arnold > > > >From: "Bill Strand" > >To: "'Donovan Arnold'" , >, > > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city tazes > >Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:56:41 -0700 > > > >Donovan, > > > >The issue of high property taxes will remain as long as the city of > >Moscow remains dependent upon entities such as the University of Idaho > >and Gritman that pay no property taxes. Think about the land that has > >come off the tax rolls in the last few years (such as Cavanaugh's > >Landing). This means that a larger percentage of property taxes will be > >placed on homeowners. I was once told that Latah County has one of the > >highest proportion of taxes coming from the homeowners in all of Idaho. > > > >The answer isn't to tax the students and/or visitors to Moscow - the > >answer is to develop the business community in this town. These entities > >require the minimum amount of increased services (fire, hospital, water, > >garbage, etc...) and thus have the highest return on investment for > >their taxes. > > > >However, this takes a long term commitment in a wide range of areas. > > > >Bill Strand > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jul 28 22:43:57 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:43:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes Message-ID: Ron wrote: "The use of the Vandal card as a "cash card" is strictly voluntary--students >are not required to have cash in the system. Its use off-campus has >repeatedly been vetoed by Idaho banking corporations." Wrong and Wrong. Students living in the Resident Halls are required to purchase Flex Dollars in their rent that is included in the Meal Plan and put on the Vandal Card. You are fooled by the vocabulary used by the University. They change the name from Vandal Dollars to Flex Dollars. The Average student chooses Meal Plan B which is $340 in Flex. That is $840,000 total. Also, all students that don't use their flex dollars by the end of the Semester lose it. That is if you have 20 Block means and $50 on the card at the end of the Semester you lose it all, your balance goes to $0. Want a fee meal, go the Wallace Complex the last week of the Semester, students will buy you meal because they will lose it anyway. Please Read: http://resnet.uidaho.edu/other_rates_03-04.htm www.argonaut.uidaho.edu/archives/091002/news6.html - 10k - Cached resnet.uidaho.edu/Docs/GiddyUpWelcome.pdf www.argonaut.uidaho.edu/archives/091002/newsindex.html resnet.uidaho.edu/Docs/GiddyUpWelcome.pdf The campus card was not vetoed by Banking. Banking doesn't have a vote nonetheless a veto, in the House Legislature. Representative Tom Trail withdrew the bill based on an agreement between the Students and the Banks that the University has blocked. We may have to return to the legislation. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: "Ron Force" >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city tazes >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:08:13 -0700 > >The use of the Vandal card as a "cash card" is strictly voluntary--students >are not required to have cash in the system. Its use off-campus has >repeatedly been vetoed by Idaho banking corporations. > >******************************************** >Ron Force rforce@moscow.com >Moscow Idaho USA >******************************************** > > > Any student that lives on campus is required to put money on a > > Vandal Card. > > The Vandal Card cannot be used off campus. > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jschutz@moscow.com Mon Jul 28 22:52:19 2003 From: jschutz@moscow.com (Jerry L. Schutz) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:52:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city taxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Donovan; Barbara is not an elected official. She is the Executive Director of the Moscow/Latah Economic Development Council. Unless you sit on the LEDC Board you did not, nor will have the opportunity to vote for her. Jerry L. Schutz -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 02:19 PM To: edc@moscow.com; strand@pacsim.com; jdanahy@turbonet.com; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city taxes Barbara, I have the greatest respect for you. I voted for you, and will again. However, you are incorrect about your interpretation and understanding about the operation and costs to students and taxpayers at the University of Idaho. I have all the documentation to prove what I am saying and would be happy to take you around the University. You are listening to what UI Administrators are publishing and saying. I spent 3 years working with Dan Schoenberg, the head of Auxiliary Services, which runs the vandal cards, streets, parking, and housing. I also spent two years working with Administrators on the students Health Insurance. I would be happy to produce all the documentation I have saved for the last three years working with students, administrators, and other government officials. I will run down each of your points and explain where you misunderstand. "the university of Idaho transfers more than $1 million >per year to the City of Moscow to cover police expenses, etc." Yes, this is true, but they produce more than 1/2 the costs to the Police department. " University also paid for 1/2 of the wastewater treatment plant" The University of Idaho Fisheries Department alone uses more than 40% of the water in Moscow. Combine that with all other water uses it has for gardens and occupants and other departments and it does not cover its share of the need for water treatment plant. "and maintains all the City streets located on campus" Which is no maintenance at all. The University acquired the "rights" to the streets so they could charge $45 a parking space. See here: http://www.info.uidaho.edu/parking/default.asp?page=map and here: http://www.info.uidaho.edu/parking/default.asp?page=regs# under purple permit.They say they are to maintain it. When in facts there are NO real requirements to maintain the road. They are not required to do anything to the road except rake the leaves once a year. Nor are they required to remove snow from the streets. Sidewalks are also not under the jurisdiction, the owners of the property in front of the sidewalks are legally required to maintain that area. What this means is that even though the Moscow taxpayer bought the roads and paid for there construction, they would have to buy a parking permit to park there because the University has the rights to the road. They paid zero in the original construction of the road. "The University has no "legal domain" over health insurance - a student may purchase health insurance from any carrier - but they must have insurance." This is incorrect as well. Any student that cannot meet the requirements of the University is automatically enrolled in the "University of Idaho" "Student Health Insurance Program (SHIP)". Those requirements are designed so that only dependant students that are covered by more extensive coverage plans such a "Blue Cross" are allowed out of the requirement. The University also uses tax dollars to promote the program over local coverage and try to sell it to parents that are sending their children to the University even if they already have the qualifying Health Insurance and/or better health insurance. In addition, the Health Insurance does not cover dental, skin, and eyes. These are the leading problems and costs of students at the University. That is probably why they cut them out of the program. Students had this coverage before this program was required. Moscow Dentists were willing to work with the University to allow students health insurance of dental coverage at a very low rate. However, the University denied this opportunity for the students because it opted to go with a national insurance provider that would not allow local Dentists to be a part of the plan. The only thing the University Health Insurance program is good for is for purchasing drugs and if you are in a horrible accident. I insist that if you don't believe this to go to any dentist office in Moscow or at least visit this site: www.uidaho.edu/ship/PDF/SHIPenrollmentform.pdf "But, no private developer can build apartment complexes that they rent for less than market." This is incorrect, in fact, the total opposite is true. The Moscow City council just approved a low income housing project that will be located at the South entrance of Moscow off of Highway 95 in the next year. Rent here will be about $370 for a two bedroom apartment. They are making a profit. You are ignoring three important facts, one, that the University asks for requirements of Builders that are not needed by the majority of students and will cost huge amounts of money. Second, that builders are going to complain about what they can rent an apartment for on the market no matter what. Go to Taylor avenue, it is full of tiny apartments that were built many years ago and the rent is outrageous check this site out: . Just run the numbers, a complex that has 6 unites and rents each one for $1000 dollars will bring in $72,000 a year. Unless you are getting a 15% interest rate on your loan you have to make a profit on a 20 year loan. Third, the University misconstrues to total costs of living in a resident hall versus that of an off campus apartment. A Student living in a resident hall sharing a room with one other student, and a rest room with an adjoining room of two others pays $6000 for nine months for room and board. That is $666 a month for just the rent and food. Now, those same four students get a two bedroom apartment for $1000 they pay $250 each for rent, about $50 for utilities a piece, $6 for local phone, about $5 for basic cabal and another $100 for food. That amount equals $411 a month. The University plays with the numbers. When it states the rent, it excludes the meal plan they are required to buy when living in the Resident Halls. So rather than saying it costs in $6000, they can say it costs $4000. They than use the term "school year" rather than month. That is cheaper on paper. But not in reality. The fact is 90-95% of students move out of the Resident Halls after the first year contract is up after they figure this out. The ones that usually stay are students that get Resident Hall paying positions, don't have cars or computers, enjoy the social life, or have parents that refuse to pay for them to move out. A 5% return rate is a sign of something when 95%+ of students are first year students at the University. See this site: "what about married graduate and law students, many of whom have children?" Oh, I would love to give you some papers on the University Budget. I would also like to take you on a tour of Family Housing and Graduate Housing. I could introduce you to some people and take you into some apartments. You would not be happy and your image of the University would change. Graduate housing is NOT Cheaper. Family Housing is cheaper. But the conditions that 3/4 of them are living in are well below what they are paying. They have mold on the ceilings, broken utility boxes, loose railings, and virtually no lighting. The bark on the playground is 6 inches long, hard, and has gagged edges. I had to fight for three months to get a piece of slide replaced that had a hole large enough for a childs leg to fall through. I had to fight for young Asia women to get another apartment elsewhere on campus after she moved out the apartment it was condemned because the ground it was build on. Another lady had the city sewer system go up her drain and it spilled all over inside her apartment. Another lady pulled her child off the floor and his knees were all scratched and sore from the carpet of an apartment she just moved into. I have a million stories to tell and would love to tell them all to you. One might think that Family Housing is subsidized by other Student Housing. But in fact it is the opposite. South Side Vista Apartments in Family housing are so old that the University has them paid off. The money that they pay does not go to repair and maintenance of the old mold infested apartments. In turn it goes to Resident Halls. The Resident Halls pay out to Sodexho, which takes the profit of $120,000 a year. Almost the exact amount of money that South Hill Vista pays in total rent after expenses are paid in Family Housing. That $120,000 should go back to family housing to maintain it not to some international corporation the invested in third world country prisons that have many prisoners that were not even guilty of a crime and live in conditions that are so horrible many people all across the world have protested. I have a copy of the Sodexho contract if you would like to see it or copy it. It is not online and is difficult to get a hold of. You have to fill out a request form giving your reasons and wait about 3 months. Two other ASUI Senators before me could not get a copy. I never got it from the office I applied for it, I had to ask Director Schoenberg for the copy. "The University supported and supports legislation to allow the use of the >Vandal Card off campus. Many in the banking industry do not." You are incorrect about this too, in part, the important part. The part you are correct about is the part of the Vandal Card being used as a credit card or checking card. This competes with local businesses. The Banks have no problem with making the Vandal Card run by the Banks. This would in fact benefit from it. ASUI and UI Lobbied to have the banking laws changed,we dropped our idea when the students and banks agreed to change our tactic of lobbing for private banks to take over the Vandal Card program. It is the University that is blocking this agreement. The University will not allow private banks to take over the Vandal Card program and make a profit. Although it would make a profit, it would cost less for students because the Private Banks can run the program for less and students could buy products off campus for cheaper than on campus. "No decision or change happens in a vacuum. What may be good for >one group of businesses may devastate another group." I agree, but if someone has to be devastated, let us choose to devastate national corporations where Moscow is only .0000001% of the profit versus devastating local businesses where jobs are located in the community. "Ultimately, Moscow needs to increase its business base and decide to live >within its means" I agree, but you can't just say it, we have to have a plan. My idea is to allow businesses not to have to compete with the University which is subsidized by the State taxpayer. "We have lots of government - federal, state, county, local - in Moscow and Latah county that >do not pay taxes." Yes, but they provide direct services for the community. The University is not providing services by cornering the market in Health Insurance, Computers, and Housing. the University provides jobs, which helps the city of Moscow. But when it doesn't go much beyond that in helping. It could allow local businesses in on the sales of Health Insurance, computers, food, housing, and many other services and products that it purchases from non-local businesses. I don't think we should be allowing the University to walk all over people. Many Moscow residents are suffering from Battered Wife Syndrome when it comes to their rights. Just because the University brings us a pay check, doesn't mean it has the right to take businesses away, take our water, and get what ever it demands upon the people of Moscow. Like I said, when was the last time a Moscow Politician said "no" to the University instead of giving them what ever they wanted. I can't recall a time in the 10 years they did this. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: "Barbara Richardson" >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , >, >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city taxes >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:55:51 -0700 > >All, > >Please be aware that the university of Idaho transfers more than $1 million >per year to the City of Moscow to cover police expenses, etc. The >University also paid for 1/2 of the wastewater treatment plant, and >maintains all the City streets located on campus. The University has no >"legal domain" over health insurance - a student may purchase health >insurance from any carrier - but they must have insurance. > >Earlier this year, the University met with local builders in a meeting >sponsored by the City of Moscow. They told the local communities exactly >what housing needs the University will have over the next 10 years. But, >no >private developer can build apartment complexes that they rent for less >than >market. Most students and families that live on campus do so because they >cannot afford to live in Moscow. It is only cheaper to live off campus if >you are single - what about married graduate and law students, many of whom >have children? > >The University supported and supports legislation to allow the use of the >Vandal Card off campus. Many in the banking industry do not. If students >can use their vandal card off campus - will they still opt for local bank >accounts. No decision or change happens in a vacuum. What may be good for >one group of businesses may devastate another group. > >Ultimately, Moscow needs to increase its business base and decide to live >within its means. That may include limited the number of parks and >programs >operated by the City. Also, how many buildings have been removed from he >tax roles by the City of Moscow in the past three years? But on the other >side of the coin, we save about $4 per year having a volunteer fire >department. It is not simply a University issue. We have lots of >government - federal, state, county, local - in Moscow and Latah county >that >do not pay taxes. Please take a look at your property tax bill - what >percentage goes to what governmental entity? > >It is difficult for government to live within its means, citizens always >want more services - but lower taxes. > >Barbara > >-----Original Message----- >From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On >Behalf Of Donovan Arnold >Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 1:41 AM >To: strand@pacsim.com; jdanahy@turbonet.com; vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city tazes > > >Mr. Strand, > >I agree with you in part. We must provide more business opportunities in >Moscow. I also agree that Moscow remains to dependant on the University. > >Where I disagree is where you have one student that contributes to the >running of Moscow and another doesn't. One business pays taxes and another >doesn't. One farmer pays taxes and another doesn't. One restaurant pays >taxes to the community and another doesn't. I don't like that concept. I >think it is unjust. I am student. I choose to live off campus for two >reasons. One, Moscow is my hometown and I want to help support it. Second, >it is actually cheaper to live off campus than on campus. > >What many people don't realize is that the University has established >"legal >domain" over many services and products. A few examples are computers and >health insurance. The University unfairly claims rights of products and >services that render other Moscow community businesses profitless. > >I find it unjust for a health insurance company to pay money to a system >that in turn creates health insurance that is cheaper than what they can >provide. Likewise, computer companies have to pay the University which >requires some students to buy computers from them. To me, this is like >requiring Safeway to pay a certain percentage of its' income to Tidyman's >so >they can make their prices cheaper than Safeway. This kills businesses. It >is a monopoly that can't be fought. > >The reason I support more businesses to come in is to lessen our dependence >on the University so that we can say "NO" to the University every time it >wants something. To many politicians in Moscow cave into the University >demands that hurt students and residents of Moscow. > >We need to have Resident Halls run and managed by Moscow Businesses. We >need >to have the University do Health Insurance through local and Idaho >businesses. We need to have all construction done by area workers in Idaho. >We need to have computers purchased through Moscow and/or Idaho computer >companies. We need to have all the University banking go through local area >branches. > >Moscow Businesses are in competition with the University. I don't think >this >economy can grow as long the University sucks up the profit margin and >gives >all profits to national and foreign corporations or wastes it on water >fountains and poorly constructed building that cost a fortune. I have been >to meetings on campus where they told the students not to buy from local >businesses. The University has policies and contracts that prevent local >businesses from even being allowed to compete for business from Students. >Any student that lives on campus is required to put money on a Vandal Card. >The Vandal Card cannot be used off campus. > >I also don't think businesses like Naylor Farms are the solution either. >Naylor Farms will use more water than the entire cities of Pullman and >Moscow combined. The area does not have the resources nor can we tolerate >the environmental damage it would bring. > >Moscow needs to grow. But it needs to grow intelligently and within the >structure of Moscow culture. I don't want Moscow changing its' face or >turning into another American sprawled suburb. Moscow is Unique. I hope to >keep its' flavor. Unfortunately, the University has become a corporation >and >not a school, and it hijacking the local community from being able to move >in the friendly direction of helping Moscow residents and more toward the >interests of the University of Idaho Incorporated to make more money and >expand to an ever fattening bureaucracy that has the purpose of only >feeding >itself even more. This must stop for any Moscow Community businesses to >move >in here and be able to survive. We must first stop the annihilation of >businesses before creating new ones. > >Thanks! > >Donovan J Arnold > > > >From: "Bill Strand" > >To: "'Donovan Arnold'" , >, > > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city tazes > >Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:56:41 -0700 > > > >Donovan, > > > >The issue of high property taxes will remain as long as the city of > >Moscow remains dependent upon entities such as the University of Idaho > >and Gritman that pay no property taxes. Think about the land that has > >come off the tax rolls in the last few years (such as Cavanaugh's > >Landing). This means that a larger percentage of property taxes will be > >placed on homeowners. I was once told that Latah County has one of the > >highest proportion of taxes coming from the homeowners in all of Idaho. > > > >The answer isn't to tax the students and/or visitors to Moscow - the > >answer is to develop the business community in this town. These entities > >require the minimum amount of increased services (fire, hospital, water, > >garbage, etc...) and thus have the highest return on investment for > >their taxes. > > > >However, this takes a long term commitment in a wide range of areas. > > > >Bill Strand > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 7/18/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 7/18/2003 From joshuahendrik@yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 23:13:09 2003 From: joshuahendrik@yahoo.com (Joshua Nieuwsma) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030728221309.2366.qmail@web41013.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1151287375-1059430389=:99403 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Visionaries, As a U of I student, I can concur with almost all of Mr. Arnold's comments about the UI administrations policies and money-making schemes, although I almost never agree with anything he says :). It is entirely true that the students end up throwing their money away at the end of the semester due to the Flex Money plan. I got free food from the both fall semester and spring semester from that university courtesy (or lack thereof!). Same thing goes for smaller things like printer paper allotments (500 pages/semester, non-transferable to the next semester even though you got charged for it in your student fees). The university explains that not passing the pages to the next semester "saves the UI money". Well, actually, multiplied by several thousand students, that makes them money, since most people I know don't end up using all their pages, but often have a couple hundred left. I know I did. They also charge every student for the cost of the Rec center, regardless of individu! al use. That fee is something like $150 a semester. And students who are on-campus residents are required to use the food plan, while all students are given the same page allotments. The comments in the other email about the cost of living on campus, the campus living situations, the streets, and other things are most all consistent with my own observations on campus and my own studying of the living situations. The university is a business, not a godfather of the community. They are out to make money as much as possible and as in as many areas as possible. Which is why they charge their students to be able to park there. But an interesting note, if you're not a UI student technically they cannot require you to pay the fine for parking without a permit on UI parking lots. It's not in the law. They can only fine registered students because being a student gives them legal authority over you. A specific comment on the Health Insurance deal. The university automatically charges a student's account without giving him the option of waiving the fee beforehand. In fact, you have to search to find the page that lets you waive the fee. I'll bet there are quite a few students who just pay the fees and don't look at the bill to see what they're paying for. So they might very easily have their own insurance, but be paying for university provided insurance at the same time. I know my account was charged without the courtesy of asking me whether I wanted the Insurance. And that even though last year I waived the Insurance policy. cheers, Joshua Nieuwsma --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-1151287375-1059430389=:99403 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Visionaries,
As a U of I student, I can concur with almost all of Mr. Arnold's comments about the UI administrations policies and money-making schemes, although I almost never agree with anything he says :). It is entirely true that the students end up throwing their money away at the end of the semester due to the Flex Money plan. I got free food from the both fall semester and spring semester from that university courtesy (or lack thereof!). Same thing goes for smaller things like printer paper allotments (500 pages/semester, non-transferable to the next semester even though you got charged for it in your student fees). The university explains that not passing the pages to the next semester "saves the UI money". Well, actually, multiplied by several thousand students, that makes them money, since most people I know don't end up using all their pages, but often have a couple hundred left. I know I did. They also charge every student for the cost o! f the Rec center, regardless of individual use. That fee is something like $150 a semester. And students who are on-campus residents are required to use the food plan, while all students are given the same page allotments. 
The comments in the other email about the cost of living on campus, the campus living situations, the streets, and other things are most all consistent with my own observations on campus and my own studying of the living situations. The university is a business, not a godfather of the community. They are out to make money as much as possible and as in as many areas as possible. Which is why they charge their students to be able to park there. But an interesting note, if you're not a UI student technically they cannot require you to pay the fine for parking without a permit on UI parking lots. It's not in the law. They can only fine registered students because being a student gives them legal authority over you.
 
A specific comment on the Health Insurance deal. The university automatically charges a student's account without giving him the option of waiving the fee beforehand. In fact, you have to search to find the page that lets you waive the fee. I'll bet there are quite a few students who just pay the fees and don't look at the bill to see what they're paying for. So they might very easily have their own insurance, but be paying for university provided insurance at the same time. I know my account was charged without the courtesy of asking me whether I wanted the Insurance. And that even though last year I waived the Insurance policy.
 
cheers,
 
Joshua Nieuwsma

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-1151287375-1059430389=:99403-- From ridethesaintedrhythms@hotmail.com Mon Jul 28 23:22:26 2003 From: ridethesaintedrhythms@hotmail.com (Joshua Gibbs) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:22:26 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: CHRIST church - DOWN FOR THE COUNT! - 8, 9, 10 Message-ID: Stamblerino, As you said, "Christ taught to love the person, not the sin." And you talk about how we shouldn't hate homosexuals and all this, and then you say Christ Church is filled with queers and we all need to wear little devil horns. Where is the love in this? Where is your love for Christ Church? Where is your love for Doug Wilson? You probably make out with your mirror every morning. You should feel honored I'm taking you seriously enough to respond to you, nobody else does. I'm just that bored, and crazy people interest me, even though they're very cliche. I used to know about this guy in Virginia who, honestly, thought the world was a big spaceship and he was the captain. Do they have conferences for insane people? Have you ever met him? Also, if you absolutely had to pick, would you prefer I made fun of the fact that you don't have a job or the fact that you're crazy? You pick and I'll only use that one. Also, when you spell things in ALL CAPS, that only makes you seem crazier. I picture you screaming random words, with your head kind of jerking around and your tongue hanging out. Feel free to write your next letter with some clever twist on me pointing this out so you seem really witty. Like having everything capitalized, or nothing capitalized, or everything but one word capitalized. Your pick. Your only friend, Josh _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 23:33:30 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] response to Josh Gibbs Message-ID: <20030728223330.75648.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> --0-307518137-1059431610=:60708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am ready to work, Josh, as long as it's not kissing Mr. Wilson's you-know-what. But that's what seems to pay in Moscow, and it works for you, with your lips all brown and what-not. Hey, you've never seen me with a Bible, ranting and raving like a New Saint Andrews freak. Again, (CAPS INTENDED), I'M NOT THE ONE WHO IS SEXUALLY ABUSING YOUNG MEN AT CHRIST CHURCH; I'M NOT THE ONE WHO IS LYING TO THE GOVERNMENT ON MY TAXES; I'M NOT THE ONE SPONSORING WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUPS; AND I'M DEFINITELY NOT THE ONE TRYING TO TAKE OVER THIS TOWN (got no dough, bro!). Again, Josh, you don't bother me: God will take care of you in God's own time. Unless you want to take the Doug Wilson approach and threaten my life, instead? Why NOT follow him to the letter, seeing that you're here on the forum wiping his butt for him, because he still has yet to answer to any of the charges from this forum: TAX FRAUD; CHILD ABUSE; PROMOTION OF HATRED. You're just a fence to keep people away from the real deal: But he's not the real deal, bro: Satan (DOUG WILSON'S boss) is who you are in effect working for, Josh. ONLY CHRIST IS THE REAL DEAL. And regarding a job: You're too much of a coward to even offer me a job, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT I WOULD ACCEPT ANY JOB FROM ANYBODY AT THIS POINT, BECAUSE NO ONE WILL HIRE ME. COME ON, JOSH, OFFER ME A JOB, I'LL DO IT...IN FACT, I'LL DO IT FOR FREE IN EXCHANGE FOR 2 WEEKS HOUSING. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Moscow) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-307518137-1059431610=:60708 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I am ready to work, Josh, as long as it's not kissing Mr. Wilson's you-know-what.  But that's what seems to pay in Moscow, and it works for you, with your lips all brown and what-not.
 
Hey, you've never seen me with a Bible, ranting and raving like a New Saint Andrews freak.
 
Again, (CAPS INTENDED), I'M NOT THE ONE WHO IS SEXUALLY ABUSING YOUNG MEN AT CHRIST CHURCH; I'M NOT THE ONE WHO IS LYING TO THE GOVERNMENT ON MY TAXES; I'M NOT THE ONE SPONSORING WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUPS; AND I'M DEFINITELY NOT THE ONE TRYING TO TAKE OVER THIS TOWN (got no dough, bro!).
 
Again, Josh, you don't bother me: God will take care of you in God's own time.  Unless you want to take the Doug Wilson approach and threaten my life, instead?  Why NOT follow him to the letter, seeing that you're here on the forum wiping his butt for him, because he still has yet to answer to any of the charges from this forum: TAX FRAUD; CHILD ABUSE; PROMOTION OF HATRED.  You're just a fence to keep people away from the real deal: But he's not the real deal, bro: Satan (DOUG WILSON'S boss) is who you are in effect working for, Josh.  ONLY CHRIST IS THE REAL DEAL.
 
And regarding a job: You're too much of a coward to even offer me a job, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT I WOULD ACCEPT ANY JOB FROM ANYBODY AT THIS POINT, BECAUSE NO ONE WILL HIRE ME.
 
COME ON, JOSH, OFFER ME A JOB, I'LL DO IT...IN FACT, I'LL DO IT FOR FREE IN EXCHANGE FOR 2 WEEKS HOUSING.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Moscow)

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-307518137-1059431610=:60708-- From jschutz@moscow.com Mon Jul 28 23:47:13 2003 From: jschutz@moscow.com (Jerry L. Schutz) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:47:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city taxes In-Reply-To: <010b01c35541$01e02d90$0da8a8c0@JON> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C3551F.83BEC2D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jon, Reduced State Revenue, which also comes from my pocket means increased City taxes? The State shortfall was only about $60,000 The Council cut $78, 000 from the proposed budget by trimming spending on travel, a GPS system for the sewer & water Dept, new Emergency Dispatch equipment for the Police, and development of parkland. Since the council was originally asked to increase taxes by 6.8% should we thank you for only increasing by 3%? According to the DN (accurate or not(7/22)) " ...The $35 million budget approved by the council is less than was spent last year. Spending in most departments is at current levels. ... City administrators had argued for the tax increase saying Moscow was owed the money." IF the shortfall was $60K, and the $35 Million budget is less than last year, why did the City need to raise property taxes 3%? WHY is the City OWED the money? Your quote from your V2020 post is: "I would note that prior to this year the City had taken a total of 10% of the 24% available over the last 8 years." Just because the City is allowed to raise taxes by 3% a year does not mean that they should. During Mayor Agidius' terms I remember far fewer increases and pretty decent City services. According to Steve Busch Moscow's tax levy is increasing faster than the School District over the past 5 years. If the City can keep Departments at the same level as last year and NOT increase spending in other areas, and trim more than the State shortfall, does that mean that we don't actually need 2 Asst. City Supervisors? Since the Council cut the travel budget then they should have more staff time to spend in house doing their jobs, maybe we could get by with just one? Then we could forego the 3% all together. When business and the University are laying people off, and taxpayers can't find living wage jobs I believe it is the government's job to keep pace with the taxpayers. Which means if WE have less money and have to live with it, so should government. Jerry L. Schutz From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Jon Kimberling Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:47 PM To: John Danahy; Vision2020 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] city tazes I would note that prior to this year the City had taken a total of 10% of the 24% available over the last 8 years. One of the reasons for the increase is that the City is receiving reduced revenues from the State. Specifically, our revenues from the State including state-share revenues, sales tax and highway user fees are all lagging. I'm hopeful that last months positive revenue report from the State is the beginning of a positive trend about the business climate within the state. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 7/18/2003 ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C3551F.83BEC2D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jon,
 
Reduced State=20 Revenue, which also comes from my pocket means increased City = taxes?  =20 The State shortfall was only about $60,000  The Council cut $78, 000 from the = proposed budget=20 by trimming spending on travel, a GPS system for the = sewer & water=20 Dept, new Emergency Dispatch equipment for the Police, and = development of=20 parkland. 
 
Since = the council=20 was originally asked to increase taxes by 6.8% should we thank you = for only=20 increasing by 3%?  According to the DN (accurate or not(7/22))=20
 
       &nbs= p;       "=20 ...The $35 million budget approved by the council is less than was spent = last=20 year.  Spending in most departments is at current levels. ...  = City=20 administrators had argued for the tax increase saying Moscow = was owed the=20 money."  
 
IF the = shortfall was=20 $60K, and the $35 Million budget is less than last year, why did the = City need=20 to raise property taxes 3%?
 
 WHY is the=20 City OWED the money?  Your quote from your V2020 post is:=20
   =20 "I would note that prior to this year the City had taken a total of = 10% of=20 the 24% available over the last 8 years." 
 
Just because the = City is=20 allowed to raise taxes by 3% a year does not mean that they = should.  During=20 Mayor Agidius' terms I remember far fewer increases and pretty decent = City=20 services.  According to Steve Busch Moscow's tax levy is increasing = faster=20 than the School District over the past 5 years.  =
 
If the = City can keep=20 Departments at the same level as last year and NOT increase spending in = other=20 areas, and trim more than the State shortfall, does that mean that we = don't=20 actually need 2 Asst. City Supervisors?  Since the=20 Council cut the travel budget then they should have more staff time = to=20 spend in house doing their jobs, maybe we could get by with just = one?  Then=20 we could forego the 3% all together.
 
When = business and=20 the University are laying people off, and taxpayers can't find = living wage=20 jobs I believe it is the government's job to keep pace with the = taxpayers. =20 Which means if WE have less money and have to live with it, so should=20 government.  
 
Jerry = L.=20 Schutz
 

From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On = Behalf Of=20 Jon Kimberling
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:47 = PM
To:=20 John Danahy; Vision2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] city=20 tazes

I would note that prior to this = year the City=20 had taken a total of 10% of the 24% available over the last 8=20 years.  
One of the reasons for the = increase is that=20 the City is receiving reduced revenues from the State.=20 Specifically, our revenues from the State including = state-share=20 revenues, sales tax and highway user=20 fees are all lagging. I'm hopeful that last months positive revenue = report=20 from the State is the beginning of a positive trend about the business = climate=20 within the state.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C3551F.83BEC2D0-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jul 29 00:14:38 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:14:38 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city taxes Message-ID: My Apologies. I confused "Barbara Richardson", with the "Betty Richardson" that ran for the US House of Representatives. My oops, sorry Barbara. I can get mixed up with names easily. Donovan J Arnold >From: "Jerry L. Schutz" >To: "Donovan Arnold" , "Moscow Vision 2020" > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city taxes >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:52:19 -0700 > >Donovan; >Barbara is not an elected official. She is the Executive Director of the >Moscow/Latah Economic Development Council. Unless you sit on the LEDC Board >you did not, nor will have the opportunity to vote for her. > >Jerry L. Schutz > >-----Original Message----- >From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On >Behalf Of Donovan Arnold >Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 02:19 PM >To: edc@moscow.com; strand@pacsim.com; jdanahy@turbonet.com; >vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city taxes > > >Barbara, > >I have the greatest respect for you. I voted for you, and will again. >However, you are incorrect about your interpretation and understanding >about the operation and costs to students and taxpayers at the University >of >Idaho. I have all the documentation to prove what I am saying and would be >happy to take you around the University. You are listening to what UI >Administrators are publishing and saying. I spent 3 years working with Dan >Schoenberg, the head of Auxiliary Services, which runs the vandal cards, >streets, parking, and housing. I also spent two years working with >Administrators on the students Health Insurance. > >I would be happy to produce all the documentation I have saved for the last >three years working with students, administrators, and other government >officials. I will run down each of your points and explain where you >misunderstand. > >"the university of Idaho transfers more than $1 million > >per year to the City of Moscow to cover police expenses, etc." > >Yes, this is true, but they produce more than 1/2 the costs to the Police >department. > > >" University also paid for 1/2 of the wastewater treatment plant" > >The University of Idaho Fisheries Department alone uses more than 40% of >the >water in Moscow. Combine that with all other water uses it has for gardens >and occupants and other departments and it does not cover its share of the >need for water treatment plant. > > >"and maintains all the City streets located on campus" > >Which is no maintenance at all. The University acquired the "rights" to the >streets so they could charge $45 a parking space. See here: >http://www.info.uidaho.edu/parking/default.asp?page=map and here: >http://www.info.uidaho.edu/parking/default.asp?page=regs# under purple >permit.They say they are to maintain it. When in facts there are NO real >requirements to maintain the road. They are not required to do anything to >the road except rake the leaves once a year. Nor are they required to >remove >snow from the streets. Sidewalks are also not under the jurisdiction, the >owners of the property in front of the sidewalks are legally required to >maintain that area. What this means is that even though the Moscow taxpayer >bought the roads and paid for there construction, they would have to buy a >parking permit to park there because the University has the rights to the >road. They paid zero in the original construction of the road. > > >"The University has no "legal domain" over health insurance - a student may >purchase health insurance from any carrier - but they must have insurance." > > >This is incorrect as well. Any student that cannot meet the requirements of >the University is automatically enrolled in the "University of Idaho" >"Student Health Insurance Program (SHIP)". Those requirements are designed >so that only dependant students that are covered by more extensive coverage >plans such a "Blue Cross" are allowed out of the requirement. The >University >also uses tax dollars to promote the program over local coverage and try to >sell it to parents that are sending their children to the University even >if >they already have the qualifying Health Insurance and/or better health >insurance. In addition, the Health Insurance does not cover dental, skin, >and eyes. These are the leading problems and costs of students at the >University. That is probably why they cut them out of the program. Students >had this coverage before this program was required. Moscow Dentists were >willing to work with the University to allow students health insurance of >dental coverage at a very low rate. However, the University denied this >opportunity for the students because it opted to go with a national >insurance provider that would not allow local Dentists to be a part of the >plan. The only thing the University Health Insurance program is good for is >for purchasing drugs and if you are in a horrible accident. I insist that >if >you don't believe this to go to any dentist office in Moscow or at least >visit this site: www.uidaho.edu/ship/PDF/SHIPenrollmentform.pdf > > >"But, no private developer can build apartment complexes that they rent for >less than market." > >This is incorrect, in fact, the total opposite is true. The Moscow City >council just approved a low income housing project that will be located at >the South entrance of Moscow off of Highway 95 in the next year. Rent here >will be about $370 for a two bedroom apartment. They are making a profit. >You are ignoring three important facts, one, that the University asks for >requirements of Builders that are not needed by the majority of students >and >will cost huge amounts of money. Second, that builders are going to >complain >about what they can rent an apartment for on the market no matter what. Go >to Taylor avenue, it is full of tiny apartments that were built many years >ago and the rent is outrageous check this site out: . Just run the numbers, >a complex that has 6 unites and rents each one for $1000 dollars will bring >in $72,000 a year. Unless you are getting a 15% interest rate on your loan >you have to make a profit on a 20 year loan. > >Third, the University misconstrues to total costs of living in a resident >hall versus that of an off campus apartment. A Student living in a resident >hall sharing a room with one other student, and a rest room with an >adjoining room of two others pays $6000 for nine months for room and board. >That is $666 a month for just the rent and food. Now, those same four >students get a two bedroom apartment for $1000 they pay $250 each for rent, >about $50 for utilities a piece, $6 for local phone, about $5 for basic >cabal and another $100 for food. That amount equals $411 a month. > >The University plays with the numbers. When it states the rent, it excludes >the meal plan they are required to buy when living in the Resident Halls. >So >rather than saying it costs in $6000, they can say it costs $4000. They >than >use the term "school year" rather than month. That is cheaper on paper. But >not in reality. The fact is 90-95% of students move out of the Resident >Halls after the first year contract is up after they figure this out. The >ones that usually stay are students that get Resident Hall paying >positions, >don't have cars or computers, enjoy the social life, or have parents that >refuse to pay for them to move out. A 5% return rate is a sign of something >when 95%+ of students are first year students at the University. See this >site: > >"what about married graduate and law students, many of whom have children?" > >Oh, I would love to give you some papers on the University Budget. I would >also like to take you on a tour of Family Housing and Graduate Housing. I >could introduce you to some people and take you into some apartments. You >would not be happy and your image of the University would change. > >Graduate housing is NOT Cheaper. Family Housing is cheaper. But the >conditions that 3/4 of them are living in are well below what they are >paying. They have mold on the ceilings, broken utility boxes, loose >railings, and virtually no lighting. The bark on the playground is 6 inches >long, hard, and has gagged edges. I had to fight for three months to get a >piece of slide replaced that had a hole large enough for a childs leg to >fall through. I had to fight for young Asia women to get another apartment >elsewhere on campus after she moved out the apartment it was condemned >because the ground it was build on. Another lady had the city sewer system >go up her drain and it spilled all over inside her apartment. Another lady >pulled her child off the floor and his knees were all scratched and sore >from the carpet of an apartment she just moved into. I have a million >stories to tell and would love to tell them all to you. > >One might think that Family Housing is subsidized by other Student Housing. >But in fact it is the opposite. South Side Vista Apartments in Family >housing are so old that the University has them paid off. The money that >they pay does not go to repair and maintenance of the old mold infested >apartments. In turn it goes to Resident Halls. The Resident Halls pay out >to >Sodexho, which takes the profit of $120,000 a year. Almost the exact amount >of money that South Hill Vista pays in total rent after expenses are paid >in >Family Housing. > > >That $120,000 should go back to family housing to maintain it not to some >international corporation the invested in third world country prisons that >have many prisoners that were not even guilty of a crime and live in >conditions that are so horrible many people all across the world have >protested. >I have a copy of the Sodexho contract if you would like to see it or copy >it. It is not online and is difficult to get a hold of. You have to fill >out >a request form giving your reasons and wait about 3 months. Two other ASUI >Senators before me could not get a copy. I never got it from the office I >applied for it, I had to ask Director Schoenberg for the copy. > > >"The University supported and supports legislation to allow the use of the > >Vandal Card off campus. Many in the banking industry do not." > >You are incorrect about this too, in part, the important part. The part you >are correct about is the part of the Vandal Card being used as a credit >card >or checking card. This competes with local businesses. The Banks have no >problem with making the Vandal Card run by the Banks. This would in fact >benefit from it. ASUI and UI Lobbied to have the banking laws changed,we >dropped our idea when the students and banks agreed to change our tactic of >lobbing for private banks to take over the Vandal Card program. It is the >University that is blocking this agreement. The University will not allow >private banks to take over the Vandal Card program and make a profit. >Although it would make a profit, it would cost less for students because >the >Private Banks can run the program for less and students could buy products >off campus for cheaper than on campus. > > >"No decision or change happens in a vacuum. What may be good for > >one group of businesses may devastate another group." > >I agree, but if someone has to be devastated, let us choose to devastate >national corporations where Moscow is only .0000001% of the profit versus >devastating local businesses where jobs are located in the community. > >"Ultimately, Moscow needs to increase its business base and decide to live > >within its means" > >I agree, but you can't just say it, we have to have a plan. My idea is to >allow businesses not to have to compete with the University which is >subsidized by the State taxpayer. > > >"We have lots of government - federal, state, county, local - in Moscow and >Latah county that > >do not pay taxes." > >Yes, but they provide direct services for the community. The University is >not providing services by cornering the market in Health Insurance, >Computers, and Housing. the University provides jobs, which helps the city >of Moscow. But when it doesn't go much beyond that in helping. It could >allow local businesses in on the sales of Health Insurance, computers, >food, >housing, and many other services and products that it purchases from >non-local businesses. > >I don't think we should be allowing the University to walk all over people. >Many Moscow residents are suffering from Battered Wife Syndrome when it >comes to their rights. Just because the University brings us a pay check, >doesn't mean it has the right to take businesses away, take our water, and >get what ever it demands upon the people of Moscow. Like I said, when was >the last time a Moscow Politician said "no" to the University instead of >giving them what ever they wanted. I can't recall a time in the 10 years >they did this. > >Thanks! > >Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Barbara Richardson" > >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , > >, > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city taxes > >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:55:51 -0700 > > > >All, > > > >Please be aware that the university of Idaho transfers more than $1 >million > >per year to the City of Moscow to cover police expenses, etc. The > >University also paid for 1/2 of the wastewater treatment plant, and > >maintains all the City streets located on campus. The University has no > >"legal domain" over health insurance - a student may purchase health > >insurance from any carrier - but they must have insurance. > > > >Earlier this year, the University met with local builders in a meeting > >sponsored by the City of Moscow. They told the local communities exactly > >what housing needs the University will have over the next 10 years. But, > >no > >private developer can build apartment complexes that they rent for less > >than > >market. Most students and families that live on campus do so because >they > >cannot afford to live in Moscow. It is only cheaper to live off campus >if > >you are single - what about married graduate and law students, many of >whom > >have children? > > > >The University supported and supports legislation to allow the use of >the > >Vandal Card off campus. Many in the banking industry do not. If >students > >can use their vandal card off campus - will they still opt for local bank > >accounts. No decision or change happens in a vacuum. What may be good >for > >one group of businesses may devastate another group. > > > >Ultimately, Moscow needs to increase its business base and decide to live > >within its means. That may include limited the number of parks and > >programs > >operated by the City. Also, how many buildings have been removed from >he > >tax roles by the City of Moscow in the past three years? But on the other > >side of the coin, we save about $4 per year having a volunteer fire > >department. It is not simply a University issue. We have lots of > >government - federal, state, county, local - in Moscow and Latah county > >that > >do not pay taxes. Please take a look at your property tax bill - what > >percentage goes to what governmental entity? > > > >It is difficult for government to live within its means, citizens always > >want more services - but lower taxes. > > > >Barbara > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > >Behalf Of Donovan Arnold > >Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 1:41 AM > >To: strand@pacsim.com; jdanahy@turbonet.com; vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city tazes > > > > > >Mr. Strand, > > > >I agree with you in part. We must provide more business opportunities in > >Moscow. I also agree that Moscow remains to dependant on the University. > > > >Where I disagree is where you have one student that contributes to the > >running of Moscow and another doesn't. One business pays taxes and >another > >doesn't. One farmer pays taxes and another doesn't. One restaurant pays > >taxes to the community and another doesn't. I don't like that concept. I > >think it is unjust. I am student. I choose to live off campus for two > >reasons. One, Moscow is my hometown and I want to help support it. >Second, > >it is actually cheaper to live off campus than on campus. > > > >What many people don't realize is that the University has established > >"legal > >domain" over many services and products. A few examples are computers and > >health insurance. The University unfairly claims rights of products and > >services that render other Moscow community businesses profitless. > > > >I find it unjust for a health insurance company to pay money to a system > >that in turn creates health insurance that is cheaper than what they can > >provide. Likewise, computer companies have to pay the University which > >requires some students to buy computers from them. To me, this is like > >requiring Safeway to pay a certain percentage of its' income to Tidyman's > >so > >they can make their prices cheaper than Safeway. This kills businesses. >It > >is a monopoly that can't be fought. > > > >The reason I support more businesses to come in is to lessen our >dependence > >on the University so that we can say "NO" to the University every time it > >wants something. To many politicians in Moscow cave into the University > >demands that hurt students and residents of Moscow. > > > >We need to have Resident Halls run and managed by Moscow Businesses. We > >need > >to have the University do Health Insurance through local and Idaho > >businesses. We need to have all construction done by area workers in >Idaho. > >We need to have computers purchased through Moscow and/or Idaho computer > >companies. We need to have all the University banking go through local >area > >branches. > > > >Moscow Businesses are in competition with the University. I don't think > >this > >economy can grow as long the University sucks up the profit margin and > >gives > >all profits to national and foreign corporations or wastes it on water > >fountains and poorly constructed building that cost a fortune. I have >been > >to meetings on campus where they told the students not to buy from local > >businesses. The University has policies and contracts that prevent local > >businesses from even being allowed to compete for business from Students. > >Any student that lives on campus is required to put money on a Vandal >Card. > >The Vandal Card cannot be used off campus. > > > >I also don't think businesses like Naylor Farms are the solution either. > >Naylor Farms will use more water than the entire cities of Pullman and > >Moscow combined. The area does not have the resources nor can we tolerate > >the environmental damage it would bring. > > > >Moscow needs to grow. But it needs to grow intelligently and within the > >structure of Moscow culture. I don't want Moscow changing its' face or > >turning into another American sprawled suburb. Moscow is Unique. I hope >to > >keep its' flavor. Unfortunately, the University has become a corporation > >and > >not a school, and it hijacking the local community from being able to >move > >in the friendly direction of helping Moscow residents and more toward the > >interests of the University of Idaho Incorporated to make more money and > >expand to an ever fattening bureaucracy that has the purpose of only > >feeding > >itself even more. This must stop for any Moscow Community businesses to > >move > >in here and be able to survive. We must first stop the annihilation of > >businesses before creating new ones. > > > >Thanks! > > > >Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > >From: "Bill Strand" > > >To: "'Donovan Arnold'" , > >, > > > > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city tazes > > >Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:56:41 -0700 > > > > > >Donovan, > > > > > >The issue of high property taxes will remain as long as the city of > > >Moscow remains dependent upon entities such as the University of Idaho > > >and Gritman that pay no property taxes. Think about the land that has > > >come off the tax rolls in the last few years (such as Cavanaugh's > > >Landing). This means that a larger percentage of property taxes will be > > >placed on homeowners. I was once told that Latah County has one of the > > >highest proportion of taxes coming from the homeowners in all of Idaho. > > > > > >The answer isn't to tax the students and/or visitors to Moscow - the > > >answer is to develop the business community in this town. These >entities > > >require the minimum amount of increased services (fire, hospital, >water, > > >garbage, etc...) and thus have the highest return on investment for > > >their taxes. > > > > > >However, this takes a long term commitment in a wide range of areas. > > > > > >Bill Strand > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >_________________________________________________________________ >Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 7/18/2003 > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 7/18/2003 > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From shawnc@outtrack.com Tue Jul 29 00:17:00 2003 From: shawnc@outtrack.com (Shawn Clabough) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:17:00 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes Message-ID: <89B16A73680AD31194A30090274FFC422E88C7@cdsl010.cda.spro.net> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3555E.5934DFB0 Content-Type: text/plain Just to comment on a common misconception. The part of the computing fee that goes to printer allotments was not calculated by taking the number of students * 500 pages, but by the number of students * average number of pages each person prints. Therefore, it is not a money-maker as you state. So if everyone used their full 500 pages, the average would increase. But in response to comments, they are changing the policy to roll-over unused pages. Shawn -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 3:13 PM To: vision Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city tazes Visionaries, As a U of I student, I can concur with almost all of Mr. Arnold's comments about the UI administrations policies and money-making schemes, although I almost never agree with anything he says :). It is entirely true that the students end up throwing their money away at the end of the semester due to the Flex Money plan. I got free food from the both fall semester and spring semester from that university courtesy (or lack thereof!). Same thing goes for smaller things like printer paper allotments (500 pages/semester, non-transferable to the next semester even though you got charged for it in your student fees). The university explains that not passing the pages to the next semester "saves the UI money". Well, actually, multiplied by several thousand students, that makes them money, since most people I know don't end up using all their pages, but often have a couple hundred left. I know I did. (...) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3555E.5934DFB0 Content-Type: text/html Message
Just to comment on a common misconception.  The part of the computing fee that goes to printer allotments was not calculated by taking the number of students * 500 pages, but by the number of students * average number of pages each person prints.  Therefore, it is not a money-maker as you state.  So if everyone used their full 500 pages, the average would increase.  But in response to comments, they are changing the policy to roll-over unused pages.
 
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 3:13 PM
To: vision
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city tazes

Visionaries,
As a U of I student, I can concur with almost all of Mr. Arnold's comments about the UI administrations policies and money-making schemes, although I almost never agree with anything he says :). It is entirely true that the students end up throwing their money away at the end of the semester due to the Flex Money plan. I got free food from the both fall semester and spring semester from that university courtesy (or lack thereof!). Same thing goes for smaller things like printer paper allotments (500 pages/semester, non-transferable to the next semester even though you got charged for it in your student fees). The university explains that not passing the pages to the next semester "saves the UI money". Well, actually, multiplied by several thousand students, that makes them money, since most people I know don't end up using all their pages, but often have a couple hundred left. I know I did.  (...) 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C3555E.5934DFB0-- From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 29 00:27:15 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:27:15 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article was incomplete Message-ID: <001701c3555f$c7c47160$c801a8c0@Laptop2> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C35525.1AF91BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wrote the following Letter to the Editor in response to Alexis = Bacharach's article last weekend. It ran in today's Daily News.=20 Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Moscow teachers are paid more than the state average because teacher pay = is based on a) the number of college credits attained (in any subject) = and b) the number of years of teaching. However, the article left out = many important details. Teachers are further compensated in at least = three significant ways that are typically ignored in salary discussions. = First, teacher benefits account for an additional 28.6% of their salary. = In the private sector, fringe benefits average 15.8% of salary.=20 Second, MSD teachers instruct 168-170 days per year for the salary = discussed above (the national average is 180 teaching days per year). = The average American works 240 days per year-nearly 30 percent more days = than government teachers for the pay they receive; plus, they have the = opportunity to teach summer school, go on vacations, take other = employment opportunities, or be paid by MSD to attend college to add to = their salary. To compare MSD teacher salaries to the rest of the = nation's salaries, teacher salaries must be "annualized"-converted from = a school year to a 12-month scale. To see the results of this = normalization, visit http://courtneys.us/msd/Teacher_Salaries.htm When you include these first two compensations (benefits and annualized = salary), the real average MSD teacher salary is $63,663; and 77% of all = MSD teachers are making over this amount. Third, these salary figures do not include extra pay for all the = extracurricular activities, such as coaching. This compensation at MSD = can be significant-up to 48% again the teacher's base salary. Three things fall out from the above discussion. First, teacher pay is = not based on merit or excellence in teaching. Second, the fastest way to = a pay raise is to get more college credit-in anything! Third, having 77% = of all teachers at the top of the salary grid is mismanagement of = taxpayer funds. Dale Courtney=20 Moscow=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C35525.1AF91BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I wrote the following Letter to the Editor in response to Alexis = Bacharach's=20 article last weekend. It ran in today's Daily News.=20

Best,
Dale Courtney
Moscow, Idaho

Moscow teachers = are paid=20 more than the state average because teacher pay is based on a) the = number of=20 college credits attained (in any subject) and b) the number of years of=20 teaching. However, the article left out many important details. Teachers = are=20 further compensated in at least three significant ways that are = typically=20 ignored in salary discussions. First, teacher benefits account for an = additional=20 28.6% of their salary. In the private sector, fringe benefits average = 15.8% of=20 salary.

Second, MSD=20 teachers instruct 168-170 days per year for the salary discussed above = (the=20 national average is 180 teaching days per year). The average American = works 240=20 days per year=97nearly 30 percent more days than government teachers for = the pay=20 they receive; plus, they have the opportunity to teach summer school, go = on=20 vacations, take other employment opportunities, or be paid by MSD to = attend=20 college to add to their salary. To compare MSD teacher salaries to the = rest of=20 the nation's salaries, teacher salaries must be "annualized"=97converted = from a=20 school year to a 12-month scale. To see the results of this = normalization, visit=20 http://courtneys.us/msd/Teacher_Salaries.htm

When you=20 include these first two compensations (benefits and annualized salary), = the real=20 average MSD teacher salary is $63,663; and 77% of all MSD teachers are = making=20 over this amount.

Third,=20 these salary figures do not include extra pay for all the = extracurricular=20 activities, such as coaching. This compensation at MSD can be = significant=97up to=20 48% again the teacher's base salary.

Three=20 things fall out from the above discussion. First, teacher pay is not = based on=20 merit or excellence in teaching. Second, the fastest way to a pay raise = is to=20 get more college credit=97in anything! Third, having 77% of all teachers = at the=20 top of the salary grid is mismanagement of taxpayer funds.

Dale Courtney
Moscow

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C35525.1AF91BF0-- From jdanahy@turbonet.com Tue Jul 29 00:42:11 2003 From: jdanahy@turbonet.com (John Danahy) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:42:11 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again Message-ID: <000e01c35561$e0b39500$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C35527.345706F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all who responded. Quite a bit of information to absorb, and, of course, I have more questions. There has been a great deal of development in and around the city, why hasn't this development resulted in sufficient increases in tax revenues? Are tax breaks being given to spur development? Does the UI expect student populations to keep on increasing in the near future? Personally, I would not be surprised by flat or even decreasing student numbers over the next three to five years. How does the combined UI/City growth plan deal with over-development? Is the UI required to meet some "rent" level comparable with the city? What impact will the UI have on the city when it makes living on campus more desirable to fill its housing? John jdanahy@turbonet.com ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C35527.345706F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks to all who responded.  Quite a bit of = information to absorb, and, of course, I have more questions.

 

There has been a great deal of development in and = around the city, why hasn’t this development resulted in sufficient increases = in tax revenues?  Are tax breaks being given to spur = development?

 

Does the UI expect student populations to keep on = increasing in the near future?

     Personally, I would not be surprised by flat or even decreasing student numbers over the next three = to

     five = years.

 

How does the combined UI/City growth plan deal with = over-development?

 

Is the UI required to meet some “rent” = level comparable with the city? 

 

What impact will the UI have on the city when it = makes living on campus more desirable to fill its housing?

 

John

jdanahy@turbonet.com

 

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C35527.345706F0-- From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 29 00:49:34 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:49:34 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again In-Reply-To: <000e01c35561$e0b39500$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> Message-ID: <200307282353.h6SNr1QU075654@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C35528.39A67950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, I'll take a stab at one of your questions: student population at UI. The predictions that I have seen show that the numbers will continue to rise because of the poor economy. Historically, students, with no good job choices in an economic downturn, elect to stay in school (or even go to school) and get higher degrees. UI is projecting an short-term increase in the number of students, then for that number to level off. What I'm personally unconvinced of is that the numbers will not return to what they were prior to the economy taking a dump. Perhaps someone knowledgeable from the UI will jump in and tell us why they project an increased student population. Best, Dale _____ From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of John Danahy Sent: Monday, 28 July, 2003 16:42 To: Vision2020 Subject: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again Thanks to all who responded. Quite a bit of information to absorb, and, of course, I have more questions. There has been a great deal of development in and around the city, why hasn't this development resulted in sufficient increases in tax revenues? Are tax breaks being given to spur development? Does the UI expect student populations to keep on increasing in the near future? Personally, I would not be surprised by flat or even decreasing student numbers over the next three to five years. How does the combined UI/City growth plan deal with over-development? Is the UI required to meet some "rent" level comparable with the city? What impact will the UI have on the city when it makes living on campus more desirable to fill its housing? John jdanahy@turbonet.com ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C35528.39A67950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,
 
I'll take a stab at one of your questions: = student=20 population at UI. The predictions that I have seen show that the numbers = will=20 continue to rise because of the poor economy. Historically, students, = with no=20 good job choices in an economic downturn, elect to stay in school (or = even=20 go to school) and get higher degrees. UI is projecting an = short-term=20 increase in the number of students, then for that number to level=20 off.
 
What I'm personally unconvinced of is that the = numbers will=20 not return to what they were prior to the economy taking a dump. Perhaps = someone=20 knowledgeable from the UI will jump in and tell us why they = project an=20 increased student population.
 
Best,
Dale
 

From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of John=20 Danahy
Sent: Monday, 28 July, 2003 16:42
To:=20 Vision2020
Subject: [Vision2020] City Taxes,=20 again

Thanks to all who = responded. =20 Quite a bit of information to absorb, and, of course, I have more=20 questions.

 

There has been a great = deal of=20 development in and around the city, why hasn’t this development = resulted in=20 sufficient increases in tax revenues?  Are tax breaks being given = to spur=20 development?

 

Does the UI expect = student=20 populations to keep on increasing in the near = future?

  =20   Personally, I would not be surprised by flat or even = decreasing=20 student numbers over the next three to

     = five=20 years.

 

How does the combined = UI/City=20 growth plan deal with over-development?

 

Is the UI required to = meet some=20 “rent” level comparable with the city?  =

 

What impact will the UI = have on=20 the city when it makes living on campus more desirable to fill its=20 housing?

 

John

jdanahy@turbonet.com

 

------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C35528.39A67950-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jul 29 00:59:47 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:59:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city taxes Message-ID: Jon, I follow your argument. However, I disagree with cutting jobs in a time of economic stress. Often times Government jobs produce a stable economy. When you cut city jobs, they lose their jobs and spend less, causing others to lose their jobs, and than causing others to lose their jobs, and on and on. When we have a poor economy, it is time to raise taxes and have the government create jobs for those because the private sector is not producing them. Government jobs pay money to people that go out and spend that money generating more jobs. The problem is how the government is raising that money. Property taxes don't hit the wealthy as hard as the middle class and those living on a fixed income. We need to get the money locked up in the bank accounts of the wealthiest 10% and put that into producing more government jobs that will in turn spend money and generate more jobs. Over taxing the middle and lower classes generates more poverty and causes them to spend less in the community destroying more jobs. No, the time to tax, build, and spend is when the economy is suffering. When the economy is good people don't need the government as much and it should not build and grow nearly as quickly, or it should shrink. In a poor economy jobs go down, crime goes up, education goes down, and interests rates go down. We should counter this by building when interest rates are less and jobs are scarce. We should fine criminal and criminal causing activity more to generate wealth for police enforcement and deter crime, and produce jobs. We should hire more teachers to train out of work residents and produce jobs. This doesn't work though when you use Property Taxes. People pay property taxes not according to their ability to pay. If you are employed or not employed you have to pay the property taxes. Since you home is the last thing you want to give up you spend less on other things. This hurts the economy. I would come up with another form of taxation to help deal with our economy. Not property taxes that hurt more than they help people. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: "Jerry L. Schutz" >To: "Jon Kimberling" , "Vision2020" > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city taxes >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:47:13 -0700 > >Jon, > >Reduced State Revenue, which also comes from my pocket means increased City >taxes? The State shortfall was only about $60,000 The Council cut $78, >000 from the proposed budget by trimming spending on travel, a GPS system >for the sewer & water Dept, new Emergency Dispatch equipment for the >Police, >and development of parkland. > >Since the council was originally asked to increase taxes by 6.8% should we >thank you for only increasing by 3%? According to the DN (accurate or >not(7/22)) > > " ...The $35 million budget approved by the council is less >than was spent last year. Spending in most departments is at current >levels. ... City administrators had argued for the tax increase saying >Moscow was owed the money." > >IF the shortfall was $60K, and the $35 Million budget is less than last >year, why did the City need to raise property taxes 3%? > > WHY is the City OWED the money? Your quote from your V2020 post is: > "I would note that prior to this year the City had taken a total of >10% >of the 24% available over the last 8 years." > >Just because the City is allowed to raise taxes by 3% a year does not mean >that they should. During Mayor Agidius' terms I remember far fewer >increases and pretty decent City services. According to Steve Busch >Moscow's tax levy is increasing faster than the School District over the >past 5 years. > >If the City can keep Departments at the same level as last year and NOT >increase spending in other areas, and trim more than the State shortfall, >does that mean that we don't actually need 2 Asst. City Supervisors? Since >the Council cut the travel budget then they should have more staff time to >spend in house doing their jobs, maybe we could get by with just one? Then >we could forego the 3% all together. > >When business and the University are laying people off, and taxpayers can't >find living wage jobs I believe it is the government's job to keep pace >with >the taxpayers. Which means if WE have less money and have to live with it, >so should government. > >Jerry L. Schutz > > >From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On >Behalf Of Jon Kimberling >Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:47 PM >To: John Danahy; Vision2020 >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] city tazes > >I would note that prior to this year the City had taken a total of 10% of >the 24% available over the last 8 years. > One of the reasons for the increase is that the City is receiving >reduced >revenues from the State. Specifically, our revenues from the State >including >state-share revenues, sales tax and highway user fees are all lagging. I'm >hopeful that last months positive revenue report from the State is the >beginning of a positive trend about the business climate within the state. > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 7/18/2003 _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jdanahy@turbonet.com Tue Jul 29 01:21:24 2003 From: jdanahy@turbonet.com (John Danahy) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:21:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city taxes In-Reply-To: <010b01c35541$01e02d90$0da8a8c0@JON> Message-ID: <000601c35567$5b18a4c0$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C3552C.AEBC3DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jon; Thanks for responding. The 4% for water, is that basic rate or actual usage, or both? Also, why increase rates at this time when less than a year ago basic rate doubled? I think I remember, shortly after the pump was fixed, the city announcing that the water department was broke, and rates were doubled. And Jon, if the city was receiving reduced revenues from the state, why did the city significantly increase salaries for top administrators? Thanks again. John -----Original Message----- From: Jon Kimberling [mailto:jon@n-k-ins.com] Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:47 PM To: John Danahy; Vision2020 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] city tazes John- the city budget for the coming year provides for the following increases: 3% property tax increase(as allowed by State law) $25,436 of previously available but not taken property tax- this is catch up for an overly conservative estimate made a year ago on the growth of our tax base 4% for sewer rates 4% for water rates I would note that prior to this year the City had taken a total of 10% of the 24% available over the last 8 years. Other sister institutions in the state have consistently taken their 3% annually. One of the reasons for the increase is that the City is receiving reduced revenues from the State. Specifically, our revenues from the State including state-share revenues, sales tax and highway user fees are all lagging. I'm hopeful that last months positive revenue report from the State is the beginning of a positive trend about the business climate within the state. Thanks for the question. Jon Kimberling ----- Original Message ----- From: John Danahy To: Vision2020 Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes I heard somewhere that the city of Moscow has decided to raise local property taxes by 4%. Is this true? And if so, Why? John ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C3552C.AEBC3DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jon;

Thanks for = responding.

 

The 4% for water, is that basic = rate or actual usage, or both?  Also, why increase rates at this time when = less than a year ago basic rate doubled?  I think I remember, shortly = after the pump was fixed, the city announcing that the water department was broke, = and rates were doubled.

 

And Jon, if the city was receiving = reduced revenues from the state, why did the city significantly increase = salaries for top administrators?

 

Thanks again.

John

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Jon Kimberling [mailto:jon@n-k-ins.com]
Sent: Monday, July 28, = 2003 12:47 PM
To: John Danahy; = Vision2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] = city tazes

 

John- the city budget for = the coming year provides for the following increases:

 

3% property tax increase(as = allowed by State law)

$25,436 of previously = available but not taken property tax- this is catch up for an overly conservative estimate made a year ago on the growth of our tax base

4% for sewer = rates

4% for water = rates

 

I would note that prior to = this year the City had taken a total of 10% of the 24% available over = the last 8 years. Other sister institutions in the state have consistently taken = their 3% annually.

 

One of the reasons for the = increase is that the City is receiving reduced revenues from the State. Specifically, our revenues from the State including = state-share revenues, sales tax and highway user fees are all = lagging. I'm hopeful that last months positive revenue report from the State is = the beginning of a positive trend about the business climate within the = state.

 

Thanks for the = question.

 

Jon = Kimberling

 

 

 

----- Original Message ----- =

To:<= /font> Vision2020

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 9:10 PM

Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes

 

I heard somewhere that the = city of Moscow has decided to raise local property taxes by 4%.  Is this true?  And if so, Why?

John

 

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C3552C.AEBC3DC0-- From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Tue Jul 29 01:07:07 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:07:07 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again References: <000e01c35561$e0b39500$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> Message-ID: <020a01c35566$2e16d7e0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01D9_01C3552A.ACCD7800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Visionaries: Just a thought; why don't we try to cut taxes in Moscow to stimulate = economic and housing growth? Simply slowing the tax increase doesn't fix = things because there is still an increase, so why not work on = eliminating certain taxes altogether?=20 All the best, Luke Nieuwsma ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Danahy=20 To: Vision2020=20 Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 4:42 PM Subject: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again Thanks to all who responded. Quite a bit of information to absorb, = and, of course, I have more questions. There has been a great deal of development in and around the city, why = hasn't this development resulted in sufficient increases in tax = revenues? Are tax breaks being given to spur development? Does the UI expect student populations to keep on increasing in the = near future? Personally, I would not be surprised by flat or even decreasing = student numbers over the next three to=20 five years. How does the combined UI/City growth plan deal with over-development?=20 Is the UI required to meet some "rent" level comparable with the city? = =20 What impact will the UI have on the city when it makes living on = campus more desirable to fill its housing? John jdanahy@turbonet.com ------=_NextPart_000_01D9_01C3552A.ACCD7800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Visionaries:
    Just a thought; why = don't we try=20 to cut taxes in Moscow to stimulate economic and housing growth? Simply = slowing=20 the tax increase doesn't fix things because there is still an increase, = so why=20 not work on eliminating certain taxes altogether?
All the best,
Luke Nieuwsma
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Danahy
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 = 4:42 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] City = Taxes,=20 again

Thanks to all who = responded. =20 Quite a bit of information to absorb, and, of course, I have more=20 questions.

 

There has been a great = deal of=20 development in and around the city, why hasn=92t this development = resulted in=20 sufficient increases in tax revenues?  Are tax breaks being given = to spur=20 development?

 

Does the UI expect = student=20 populations to keep on increasing in the near = future?

  =20   Personally, I would not be surprised by flat or even = decreasing=20 student numbers over the next three to

     = five=20 years.

 

How does the combined = UI/City=20 growth plan deal with over-development?

 

Is the UI required to = meet some=20 =93rent=94 level comparable with the city? 

 

What impact will the UI = have on=20 the city when it makes living on campus more desirable to fill its=20 housing?

 

John

jdanahy@turbonet.com

 

------=_NextPart_000_01D9_01C3552A.ACCD7800-- From jsullivan@moscow.com Tue Jul 29 01:24:26 2003 From: jsullivan@moscow.com (JSullivan) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:24:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Water question Message-ID: <001401c35567$c4f726f0$7bf2f5c7@Janestas> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C3552D.1808B920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please excuse me if this question has been asked before. Today, as I left Wal-Mart at around 3:30 pm, I noticed over a dozen = sprinklers running at the U of I on the hill above the Water treatment = plant. Is this reused water from the treatment plant, or fresh water fom = the aquifer? Why are they watering during the day? Will they get cited = like the rest of us? I just heard on the news (channel 2) that this is the hottest, driest = summer on record for the last 40 years. Might this be the cause of more = water usage, despite the new regulations?=20 Janesta Sullivan ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C3552D.1808B920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  Please excuse me if this = question has been=20 asked before.
 
Today, as I left Wal-Mart at around = 3:30 pm, I=20 noticed over a dozen sprinklers running at the U of I on the hill above = the=20 Water treatment plant. Is this reused water from the treatment plant, or = fresh=20 water fom the aquifer? Why are they watering during the day? Will they = get cited=20 like the rest of us?
 
I just heard on the news (channel 2) = that this=20 is the hottest, driest summer on record for the last 40 = years. Might=20 this be the cause of more water usage, despite the new regulations? =
 
Janesta = Sullivan
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C3552D.1808B920-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jul 29 01:27:37 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:27:37 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again Message-ID: Dale, I suggest you talk to this man: Lincks, Dennis Phone: (208) 885-9220 Email: dennis@uidaho.edu Title: Splst, Stdt Rcds Srvcs He knows all those student numbers very well. His office is in the Student Union Building if you want to talk to him. Why the Students Union Building? Well, the administration took it over, but don't worry, the students still pay for the building. Donovan J Arnold >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:49:34 -0700 > >John, > >I'll take a stab at one of your questions: student population at UI. The >predictions that I have seen show that the numbers will continue to rise >because of the poor economy. Historically, students, with no good job >choices in an economic downturn, elect to stay in school (or even go to >school) and get higher degrees. UI is projecting an short-term increase in >the number of students, then for that number to level off. > >What I'm personally unconvinced of is that the numbers will not return to >what they were prior to the economy taking a dump. Perhaps someone >knowledgeable from the UI will jump in and tell us why they project an >increased student population. > >Best, >Dale > > > > _____ > >From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On >Behalf Of John Danahy >Sent: Monday, 28 July, 2003 16:42 >To: Vision2020 >Subject: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again > > > >Thanks to all who responded. Quite a bit of information to absorb, and, of >course, I have more questions. > > > >There has been a great deal of development in and around the city, why >hasn't this development resulted in sufficient increases in tax revenues? >Are tax breaks being given to spur development? > > > >Does the UI expect student populations to keep on increasing in the near >future? > > Personally, I would not be surprised by flat or even decreasing >student >numbers over the next three to > > five years. > > > >How does the combined UI/City growth plan deal with over-development? > > > >Is the UI required to meet some "rent" level comparable with the city? > > > >What impact will the UI have on the city when it makes living on campus >more >desirable to fill its housing? > > > >John > >jdanahy@turbonet.com > > > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 29 01:28:04 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:28:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city taxes In-Reply-To: <000601c35567$5b18a4c0$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> Message-ID: <200307290031.h6T0VWQU058720@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C3552D.9AA7E6D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, One reason for the increase in the cost of water is that Moscow was only charging for the cost of pumping/storing the water; then charging for the delivery fee (to your house). One thing that was not being costed was the "worth" of the water itself. If we were in an area with a tremendous amount of water readily available for "free", then the water itself doesn't cost much. However, in an environment of depleting water, there is a real "value" to the water that needs to be charged. Consider it the "Net Present Value" of our aquifer water :) Best, Dale _____ From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of John Danahy Sent: Monday, 28 July, 2003 17:21 To: 'Jon Kimberling'; 'Vision2020' Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city taxes Jon; Thanks for responding. The 4% for water, is that basic rate or actual usage, or both? Also, why increase rates at this time when less than a year ago basic rate doubled? I think I remember, shortly after the pump was fixed, the city announcing that the water department was broke, and rates were doubled. And Jon, if the city was receiving reduced revenues from the state, why did the city significantly increase salaries for top administrators? Thanks again. John -----Original Message----- From: Jon Kimberling [mailto:jon@n-k-ins.com] Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:47 PM To: John Danahy; Vision2020 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] city tazes John- the city budget for the coming year provides for the following increases: 3% property tax increase(as allowed by State law) $25,436 of previously available but not taken property tax- this is catch up for an overly conservative estimate made a year ago on the growth of our tax base 4% for sewer rates 4% for water rates I would note that prior to this year the City had taken a total of 10% of the 24% available over the last 8 years. Other sister institutions in the state have consistently taken their 3% annually. One of the reasons for the increase is that the City is receiving reduced revenues from the State. Specifically, our revenues from the State including state-share revenues, sales tax and highway user fees are all lagging. I'm hopeful that last months positive revenue report from the State is the beginning of a positive trend about the business climate within the state. Thanks for the question. Jon Kimberling ----- Original Message ----- From: John Danahy To: Vision2020 Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes I heard somewhere that the city of Moscow has decided to raise local property taxes by 4%. Is this true? And if so, Why? John ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C3552D.9AA7E6D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,
 
One reason for the increase in the cost of = water is that=20 Moscow was only charging for the cost of pumping/storing the water; then = charging for the delivery fee (to your house). One thing that was = not=20 being costed was the "worth" of the water itself.
 
If we were in an area with a tremendous amount = of water=20 readily available for "free", then the water itself doesn't cost much. = However,=20 in an environment of depleting water, there is a real "value" to the = water that=20 needs to be charged.
 
Consider it the "Net Present Value" of our = aquifer=20 water  :)
 
Best,
Dale
 

From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of John=20 Danahy
Sent: Monday, 28 July, 2003 17:21
To: 'Jon=20 Kimberling'; 'Vision2020'
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city=20 taxes

Jon;=20

Thanks for=20 responding.

 

The 4% for = water, is=20 that basic rate or actual usage, or both?  Also, why increase = rates at=20 this time when less than a year ago basic rate doubled?  I think = I=20 remember, shortly after the pump was fixed, the city announcing that = the water=20 department was broke, and rates were doubled.

 

And Jon, if = the city=20 was receiving reduced revenues from the state, why did the city = significantly=20 increase salaries for top administrators?

 

Thanks=20 again.

John

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Jon=20 Kimberling [mailto:jon@n-k-ins.com]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 = 12:47=20 PM
To: John Danahy; = Vision2020
Subject: = Re:=20 [Vision2020] city tazes

 

John- the city budget = for the=20 coming year provides for the following = increases:

 

3% property tax = increase(as=20 allowed by State law)

$25,436 of = previously=20 available but not taken property tax- this is catch up for an overly=20 conservative estimate made a year ago on the growth of our tax=20 base

4% for sewer=20 rates

4% for water=20 rates

 

I would note that prior = to this=20 year the City had taken a total of 10% of the 24% available over = the last=20 8 years. Other sister institutions in the state have consistently = taken their=20 3% annually.

 

One of the reasons for = the=20 increase is that the City is receiving reduced revenues from the = State.=20 Specifically, our revenues from the State including = state-share=20 revenues, sales tax and highway user fees are = all lagging.=20 I'm hopeful that last months positive revenue report from the State is = the=20 beginning of a positive trend about the business climate within the=20 state.

 

Thanks for the=20 question.

 

Jon=20 Kimberling

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----=20

From: John=20 Danahy

To: Vision2020 =

Sent: Sunday,=20 July 27, 2003 9:10 PM

Subject:=20 [Vision2020] city tazes

 

I heard somewhere that = the city=20 of Moscow has decided to raise local property taxes by 4%.  Is = this=20 true?  And if so, Why?

John

 

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C3552D.9AA7E6D0-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jul 29 01:50:05 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:50:05 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes Message-ID: It is a money maker for Boise Cascade which contracts the paper, which is fine. the rollover is pointless because if people only use 300 sheets giving them 700 the next semester is kind of pointless don't you think? The University paper purchased is consdered a "academic support service" so the students are buying the paper they don't use. A better way of handeling the situtation is to alot students different amounts of paper based on the courses they are taking. I would give students their money back and allow them to buy the paper at a fixed rate per 50 pages. At the end of the year if they don't use all the paper give the money back if they are not re-enrolling, or turn it over the next year. I am all for the government helping us out, but mircomanaging individual student paper usuage is a little over the top. Next will be toilet paper. We will be required to buy 100 rolls of toilet paper and if we don't use it all we will be able to roll it over to a next semester. It will be called a student support service and the fee will increase at 10% a year. Of course like all other student services Idaho Taxpayers will have to pay 2/3 the cost of the service and students will qualify for more in student loans and scholarships to help pay for it. Give me a break. Where does it end? Donovan J Arnold >From: Shawn Clabough >To: "'vision'" >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city tazes >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:17:00 -0700 > >Just to comment on a common misconception. The part of the computing fee >that goes to printer allotments was not calculated by taking the number of >students * 500 pages, but by the number of students * average number of >pages each person prints. Therefore, it is not a money-maker as you state. >So if everyone used their full 500 pages, the average would increase. But >in response to comments, they are changing the policy to roll-over unused >pages. > >Shawn > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com] >Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 3:13 PM >To: vision >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city tazes > > >Visionaries, >As a U of I student, I can concur with almost all of Mr. Arnold's comments >about the UI administrations policies and money-making schemes, although I >almost never agree with anything he says :). It is entirely true that the >students end up throwing their money away at the end of the semester due to >the Flex Money plan. I got free food from the both fall semester and spring >semester from that university courtesy (or lack thereof!). Same thing goes >for smaller things like printer paper allotments (500 pages/semester, >non-transferable to the next semester even though you got charged for it in >your student fees). The university explains that not passing the pages to >the next semester "saves the UI money". Well, actually, multiplied by >several thousand students, that makes them money, since most people I know >don't end up using all their pages, but often have a couple hundred left. I >know I did. (...) > _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From dkaag@turbonet.com Tue Jul 29 02:36:02 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 18:36:02 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article was incomplete In-Reply-To: <001701c3555f$c7c47160$c801a8c0@Laptop2> Message-ID: <0397B376-C165-11D7-BFB0-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> --Apple-Mail-2--469015899 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Dale: As the token public school teacher, I have a couple of questions and=20 comments... 1. Our compensation package is not as good as either UI or WSU. 2. In the last three years, the cost of our medical insurance to each=20= member (and we are required to be members of the pool...) has increased=20= each year by more than the district has increased their contribution. =20= Given that our salaries have not come close to matching annual=20 cost-of-living inflation, that means that, in effect, we have=20 experienced pay cuts for at least the last three years. 3. What summer school? 4. Continuing recertification requirements generally require teachers=20 to go to school every summer, and no, the school district does NOT pay=20= us to attend! We pay tuition like everyone else. Most of us not=20 attending college courses in the summer are working on curriculum, on=20 our own time, "off the clock", for the next school year. 5. If you are attending summer school most of the summer, the chances=20= of A) other employment, or B) extended vacations, are slim. 6. There are very few coaches as a percentage of the total number of=20 teachers in this district. Those teachers who do coach make a=20 pittance, and work long hours on nights and weekends to earn it. Most=20= of the extracurricular activities requiring teacher presence are=20 covered by volunteer teachers, i.e., WE DO NOT GET PAID FOR OUR TIME=20 OUTSIDE OF THE SCHOOL DAY! 7. Most of the teachers I know come early and stay late. =20 Additionally, we work nights and weekends on correcting assignments and=20= exams, writing lesson plans, contacting parents, and on professional=20 reading and education. 8. Salaries in Idaho are so low, and the attitude of many Idahoans=20 towards public education is so poor, that very few of our student=20 teachers stay here and teach in the state. We are supporting higher=20 education to train teachers to teach in Idaho schools, and they are=20 very intelligently packing their bags and going elsewhere to teach upon=20= graduation. So, what will happen to both the public and private=20 schools in Moscow when the 77% of the district teachers who are at the=20= top of the experience and education scales hit retirement (Most of them=20= in the next 5 years.), should be interesting to watch. 9. I am all for merit pay. My salary will go up. I have a Masters=20 degree (3.93 GPA) in History, and the equivalent of another in=20 post-Masters courses. (I teach Advanced Placement U.S. History to high=20= school juniors, and my kids are tested by worldwide competitive exam,=20 administered by the Educational Testing Service, the same folks who=20 write and administer the College Boards.) Regards, Don Kaag On Monday, July 28, 2003, at 04:27 PM, Dale Courtney wrote: > I wrote the following Letter to the Editor in response to Alexis=20 > Bacharach's article last weekend. It ran in today's Daily News. > > Best, > Dale Courtney > Moscow, Idaho > > > > Moscow teachers are paid more than the state average because teacher=20= > pay is based on a) the number of college credits attained (in any=20 > subject) and b) the number of years of teaching. However, the article=20= > left out many important details. Teachers are further compensated in=20= > at least three significant ways that are typically ignored in salary=20= > discussions. First, teacher benefits account for an additional 28.6%=20= > of their salary. In the private sector, fringe benefits average 15.8%=20= > of salary. > > Second, MSD teachers instruct 168-170 days per year for the salary=20 > discussed above (the national average is 180 teaching days per year).=20= > The average American works 240 days per year=97nearly 30 percent more=20= > days than government teachers for the pay they receive; plus, they=20 > have the opportunity to teach summer school, go on vacations, take=20 > other employment opportunities, or be paid by MSD to attend college to=20= > add to their salary. To compare MSD teacher salaries to the rest of=20 > the nation's salaries, teacher salaries must be "annualized"=97converted= =20 > from a school year to a 12-month scale. To see the results of this=20 > normalization, visit http://courtneys.us/msd/Teacher_Salaries.htm > > When you include these first two compensations (benefits and=20 > annualized salary), the real average MSD teacher salary is $63,663;=20 > and 77% of all MSD teachers are making over this amount. > > Third, these salary figures do not include extra pay for all the=20 > extracurricular activities, such as coaching. This compensation at MSD=20= > can be significant=97up to 48% again the teacher's base salary. > > Three things fall out from the above discussion. First, teacher pay is=20= > not based on merit or excellence in teaching. Second, the fastest way=20= > to a pay raise is to get more college credit=97in anything! Third,=20 > having 77% of all teachers at the top of the salary grid is=20 > mismanagement of taxpayer funds. > > Dale Courtney > Moscow > --Apple-Mail-2--469015899 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Dale: As the token public school teacher, I have a couple of questions and comments... 1. Our compensation package is not as good as either UI or WSU. =20 2. In the last three years, the cost of our medical insurance to each member (and we are required to be members of the pool...) has increased each year by more than the district has increased their contribution. Given that our salaries have not come close to matching annual cost-of-living inflation, that means that, in effect, we have experienced pay cuts for at least the last three years. 3. What summer school? 4. Continuing recertification requirements generally require teachers to go to school every summer, and no, the school district does NOT pay us to attend! We pay tuition like everyone else. Most of us not attending college courses in the summer are working on curriculum, on our own time, "off the clock", for the next school year. 5. If you are attending summer school most of the summer, the chances of A) other employment, or B) extended vacations, are slim. 6. There are very few coaches as a percentage of the total number of teachers in this district. Those teachers who do coach make a pittance, and work long hours on nights and weekends to earn it. Most of the extracurricular activities requiring teacher presence are covered by volunteer teachers, i.e., WE DO NOT GET PAID FOR OUR TIME OUTSIDE OF THE SCHOOL DAY! 7. Most of the teachers I know come early and stay late.=20 Additionally, we work nights and weekends on correcting assignments and exams, writing lesson plans, contacting parents, and on professional reading and education. 8. Salaries in Idaho are so low, and the attitude of many Idahoans towards public education is so poor, that very few of our student teachers stay here and teach in the state. We are supporting higher education to train teachers to teach in Idaho schools, and they are very intelligently packing their bags and going elsewhere to teach upon graduation. So, what will happen to both the public and private schools in Moscow when the 77% of the district teachers who are at the top of the experience and education scales hit retirement (Most of them in the next 5 years.), should be interesting to watch. 9. I am all for merit pay. My salary will go up. I have a Masters degree (3.93 GPA) in History, and the equivalent of another in post-Masters courses. (I teach Advanced Placement U.S. History to high school juniors, and my kids are tested by worldwide competitive exam, administered by the Educational Testing Service, the same folks who write and administer the College Boards.) Regards, Don Kaag On Monday, July 28, 2003, at 04:27 PM, Dale Courtney wrote: I wrote the following Letter to the Editor in response to Alexis Bacharach's article last weekend. It ran in today's Daily News. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho < Moscow teachers are paid more than the state average because teacher pay is based on a) the number of college credits attained (in any subject) and b) the number of years of teaching. However, the article left out many important details. Teachers are further compensated in at least three significant ways that are typically ignored in salary discussions. First, teacher benefits account for an additional 28.6% of their salary. In the private sector, fringe benefits average 15.8% of salary. Second, MSD teachers instruct 168-170 days per year for the salary discussed above (the national average is 180 teaching days per year). The average American works 240 days per year=97nearly 30 percent more days than government teachers for the pay they receive; plus, they have the opportunity to teach summer school, go on vacations, take other employment opportunities, or be paid by MSD to attend college to add to their salary. To compare MSD teacher salaries to the rest of the nation's salaries, teacher salaries must be "annualized"=97converted from a school year to a 12-month scale. To see the results of this normalization, visit = 1999,1999,FFFFhttp://courtneys.us/msd/Tea= cher_Salaries.htm When you include these first two compensations (benefits and annualized salary), the real average MSD teacher salary is $63,663; and 77% of all MSD teachers are making over this amount. Third, these salary figures do not include extra pay for all the extracurricular activities, such as coaching. This compensation at MSD can be significant=97up to 48% again the teacher's base salary. Three things fall out from the above discussion. First, teacher pay is not based on merit or excellence in teaching. Second, the fastest way to a pay raise is to get more college credit=97in anything! Third, having 77% of all teachers at the top of the salary grid is mismanagement of taxpayer funds. Dale Courtney Moscow = --Apple-Mail-2--469015899-- From timlohr@yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 03:02:29 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article was incomplete In-Reply-To: <0397B376-C165-11D7-BFB0-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Message-ID: <20030729020229.44277.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Don, This is an era when teachers are being laid off from their jobs because of either a lack of funding or a decline in the number of students or both. Why doesn't the teacher's union, in the spirit of solidarity, voluntarily adopt an across the board pay cut for all teachers and especially the higher paid administrators in the approximate per-capita amount that it would require to retain those teachers? The issue these days doesn't seem to involve teachers with much bargaining power to make demands other than retaining their jobs. There are many qualified teachers in Moscow who are unemployed, underemployed etc. Most teaching jobs advertised in the public schools hereabouts receive dozens of applications. If the union is sincerely concerned with the cutbacks and layoffs it would seem that they should demonstrate it. TL --- Don Kaag wrote: > Dale: > > As the token public school teacher, I have a couple > of questions and > comments... > > 1. Our compensation package is not as good as > either UI or WSU. > > 2. In the last three years, the cost of our medical > insurance to each > member (and we are required to be members of the > pool...) has increased > each year by more than the district has increased > their contribution. > Given that our salaries have not come close to > matching annual > cost-of-living inflation, that means that, in > effect, we have > experienced pay cuts for at least the last three > years. > > 3. What summer school? > > 4. Continuing recertification requirements generally > require teachers > to go to school every summer, and no, the school > district does NOT pay > us to attend! We pay tuition like everyone else. > Most of us not > attending college courses in the summer are working > on curriculum, on > our own time, "off the clock", for the next school > year. > > 5. If you are attending summer school most of the > summer, the chances > of A) other employment, or B) extended vacations, > are slim. > > 6. There are very few coaches as a percentage of > the total number of > teachers in this district. Those teachers who do > coach make a > pittance, and work long hours on nights and weekends > to earn it. Most > of the extracurricular activities requiring teacher > presence are > covered by volunteer teachers, i.e., WE DO NOT GET > PAID FOR OUR TIME > OUTSIDE OF THE SCHOOL DAY! > > 7. Most of the teachers I know come early and stay > late. > Additionally, we work nights and weekends on > correcting assignments and > exams, writing lesson plans, contacting parents, and > on professional > reading and education. > > 8. Salaries in Idaho are so low, and the attitude > of many Idahoans > towards public education is so poor, that very few > of our student > teachers stay here and teach in the state. We are > supporting higher > education to train teachers to teach in Idaho > schools, and they are > very intelligently packing their bags and going > elsewhere to teach upon > graduation. So, what will happen to both the public > and private > schools in Moscow when the 77% of the district > teachers who are at the > top of the experience and education scales hit > retirement (Most of them > in the next 5 years.), should be interesting to > watch. > > 9. I am all for merit pay. My salary will go up. > I have a Masters > degree (3.93 GPA) in History, and the equivalent of > another in > post-Masters courses. (I teach Advanced Placement > U.S. History to high > school juniors, and my kids are tested by worldwide > competitive exam, > administered by the Educational Testing Service, the > same folks who > write and administer the College Boards.) > > Regards, > > Don Kaag > > > > > On Monday, July 28, 2003, at 04:27 PM, Dale Courtney > wrote: > > > I wrote the following Letter to the Editor in > response to Alexis > > Bacharach's article last weekend. It ran in > today's Daily News. > > > > Best, > > Dale Courtney > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > > > > > > Moscow teachers are paid more than the state > average because teacher > > pay is based on a) the number of college credits > attained (in any > > subject) and b) the number of years of teaching. > However, the article > > left out many important details. Teachers are > further compensated in > > at least three significant ways that are typically > ignored in salary > > discussions. First, teacher benefits account for > an additional 28.6% > > of their salary. In the private sector, fringe > benefits average 15.8% > > of salary. > > > > Second, MSD teachers instruct 168-170 days per > year for the salary > > discussed above (the national average is 180 > teaching days per year). > > The average American works 240 days per > year—nearly 30 percent more > > days than government teachers for the pay they > receive; plus, they > > have the opportunity to teach summer school, go on > vacations, take > > other employment opportunities, or be paid by MSD > to attend college to > > add to their salary. To compare MSD teacher > salaries to the rest of > > the nation's salaries, teacher salaries must be > "annualized"—converted > > from a school year to a 12-month scale. To see the > results of this > > normalization, visit > http://courtneys.us/msd/Teacher_Salaries.htm > > > > When you include these first two compensations > (benefits and > > annualized salary), the real average MSD teacher > salary is $63,663; > > and 77% of all MSD teachers are making over this > amount. > > > > Third, these salary figures do not include extra > pay for all the > > extracurricular activities, such as coaching. This > compensation at MSD > > can be significant—up to 48% again the teacher's > base salary. > > > > Three things fall out from the above discussion. > First, teacher pay is > > not based on merit or excellence in teaching. > Second, the fastest way > > to a pay raise is to get more college credit—in > anything! Third, > > having 77% of all teachers at the top of the > salary grid is > > mismanagement of taxpayer funds. > > > > Dale Courtney > > Moscow > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 29 03:22:14 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:22:14 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article was incomplete In-Reply-To: <0397B376-C165-11D7-BFB0-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Message-ID: <200307290225.h6T2PgQU002202@whale2.fsr.net> Don, Thanks for taking the time to write and make comments. I hope my comments are not perceived as either harsh or a personal attack; they are neither. > 1. Our compensation package is not as good as either UI or WSU. *Should* the compensation for the elementary/junior/senior high be commensurate with that of a University? *Should* primary school teachers be paid the same as a University Professor? Or have the same benefits? > 2. In the last three years, the cost of our medical insurance > to each member (and we are required to be members of the > pool...) has increased each year by more than the district > has increased their contribution. Given that our salaries > have not come close to matching annual cost-of-living > inflation, that means that, in effect, we have experienced > pay cuts for at least the last three years. The "cost-of-living inflation" is a distracter. Because your salaries are tied to the number of years you've taught (see: http://courtneys.us/msd/data/Table_1.htm), you could *never* have a COLA and still be accelerating faster than the inflation rate (at least until the salary grid maxes out). As it is, the teaching grid accelerates the pay faster than inflation. > 3. What summer school? That is one of *many* options, not the only one. All of these are opportunity costs that you have (more on that later). > 4. Continuing recertification requirements generally require > teachers to go to school every summer, and no, the school > district does NOT pay us to attend! We pay tuition like > everyone else. Most of us not attending college courses in > the summer are working on curriculum, on our own time, "off > the clock", for the next school year. I would double check with the district. There are reimbursements for teachers in continuing education. But *even* if there were not -- I don't know anyone else who gets a salary increase in any other field just by taking underwater basket weaving. Do you? My point is: the degree doesn't matter, just punching the ticket for the classes (*any* classes!). Also, there's no requirement that the teacher get a degree in his/her area of specialty. A math teacher with a BA, weary of those long nights deriving proofs in college, may choose to get a M.Ed. -- much easier; and, hey! The pay on the other end is the same! There's no incentive to get a degree in your specialty. > 5. If you are attending summer school most of the summer, the > chances of A) other employment, or B) extended vacations, are slim. But these are opportunity costs (see: http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/OpportunityCost.html). I don't know very many businessmen/women who have the opportunity to take the entire summer "off" if they so choose. > 6. There are very few coaches as a percentage of the total > number of teachers in this district. Those teachers who do > coach make a pittance, and work long hours on nights and > weekends to earn it. Most of the extracurricular activities > requiring teacher presence are covered by volunteer teachers, > i.e., WE DO NOT GET PAID FOR OUR TIME OUTSIDE OF THE SCHOOL DAY! Coaches were the example I used because they are paid the most (head coach at Moscow High gets a 48% bonus). It goes down from there. I *do* have the list of all the bonuses given (there wasn't enough room in my 300-word limit to list them all); but if you coach Knowledge Bowl or teach Jazz Band, you get a bonus. If you like, I'll post those for you. Of course, it *does* show where our interests lie -- that the sports coaches get the biggest bonuses. So much for "education". If we *really* wanted education, it would be the intellectuals in the schools who would get the bonuses, not the jocks. But that's another discussion for another time. > 7. Most of the teachers I know come early and stay late. > Additionally, we work nights and weekends on correcting > assignments and exams, writing lesson plans, contacting > parents, and on professional reading and education. And so does the rest of the business world. I don't know anyone paid what the average government school teacher is paid that doesn't take a significant amount of work home in the evenings/weekends. > 8. Salaries in Idaho are so low, and the attitude of many > Idahoans towards public education is so poor, that very few > of our student teachers stay here and teach in the state. We > are supporting higher education to train teachers to teach in > Idaho schools, and they are very intelligently packing their > bags and going elsewhere to teach upon graduation. So, what > will happen to both the public and private schools in Moscow > when the 77% of the district teachers who are at the top of > the experience and education scales hit retirement (Most of > them in the next 5 years.), should be interesting to watch. Actually, I think we have much to gain -- but not until the salary grid is removed (among other things). But that's because your union has forced us into this mess. > 9. I am all for merit pay. My salary will go up. I have a > Masters degree (3.93 GPA) in History, and the equivalent of > another in post-Masters courses. (I teach Advanced Placement > U.S. History to high school juniors, and my kids are tested > by worldwide competitive exam, administered by the > Educational Testing Service, the same folks who write and > administer the College Boards.) Great! But the other side of the coin is -- history majors are a dime a dozen (sorry, it's true). My sister-in-law has her Masters in History from Duke. She's a manager at JC Penny's. However, the people who *really* need to be paid well are those in the low-supplied topics: math & science. "Supply and demand" says that when you have a shortage, it's because the market is underpriced; and when you have a glut, the market is overpriced. We have a shortage in the hard sciences and math. The salary grid only accelerates that shortage: why should someone want to be a math/science major when he/she can get a degree in English and be paid just the same? The only way in our current teacher-salary-grid to afford to attract math/science teachers is by raising *everyone's* pay. Very convenient for those in non-critical jobs; but very expensive for the tax payers to have to pay *all* the teachers at that high wage to attract the few we need. This conversation will have to continue another time; company has just arrived. Best, Dale From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jul 29 03:43:49 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:43:49 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article was incomplete Message-ID: This has never happened before, but I agree with Mr. Kaag. (What is happening to me, I agree with Luke, Dale, and now Mr. Kaag on something!) I think teachers are treated horriblely, and I would fight to have them keep the pay they have. I think many teachers already spend their own free time and income helping students. Tim, I think having teachers agree to a pay cut is a BAD idea. This is saying that they can afford a pay cut and will be used in the future as a way to save money. I think members of the community need to agree to pay our teachers more pay, not have the teachers agree to take less pay. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: Tim Lohrmann >To: Don Kaag >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article was >incomplete >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:02:29 -0700 (PDT) > >Don, > This is an era when teachers are being laid off >from their jobs because of either a lack of funding or >a decline in the number of students or both. > Why doesn't the teacher's union, in the spirit of >solidarity, voluntarily adopt an across the board pay >cut for all teachers and especially the higher paid >administrators in the approximate per-capita amount >that it would require to retain those teachers? > The issue these days doesn't seem to involve >teachers with much bargaining power to make demands >other than retaining their jobs. There are many >qualified teachers in Moscow who are unemployed, >underemployed etc. Most teaching jobs advertised in >the public schools hereabouts receive dozens of >applications. > If the union is sincerely concerned with the >cutbacks and layoffs it would seem that they should >demonstrate it. > > TL > > > > >--- Don Kaag wrote: > > Dale: > > > > As the token public school teacher, I have a couple > > of questions and > > comments... > > > > 1. Our compensation package is not as good as > > either UI or WSU. > > > > 2. In the last three years, the cost of our medical > > insurance to each > > member (and we are required to be members of the > > pool...) has increased > > each year by more than the district has increased > > their contribution. > > Given that our salaries have not come close to > > matching annual > > cost-of-living inflation, that means that, in > > effect, we have > > experienced pay cuts for at least the last three > > years. > > > > 3. What summer school? > > > > 4. Continuing recertification requirements generally > > require teachers > > to go to school every summer, and no, the school > > district does NOT pay > > us to attend! We pay tuition like everyone else. > > Most of us not > > attending college courses in the summer are working > > on curriculum, on > > our own time, "off the clock", for the next school > > year. > > > > 5. If you are attending summer school most of the > > summer, the chances > > of A) other employment, or B) extended vacations, > > are slim. > > > > 6. There are very few coaches as a percentage of > > the total number of > > teachers in this district. Those teachers who do > > coach make a > > pittance, and work long hours on nights and weekends > > to earn it. Most > > of the extracurricular activities requiring teacher > > presence are > > covered by volunteer teachers, i.e., WE DO NOT GET > > PAID FOR OUR TIME > > OUTSIDE OF THE SCHOOL DAY! > > > > 7. Most of the teachers I know come early and stay > > late. > > Additionally, we work nights and weekends on > > correcting assignments and > > exams, writing lesson plans, contacting parents, and > > on professional > > reading and education. > > > > 8. Salaries in Idaho are so low, and the attitude > > of many Idahoans > > towards public education is so poor, that very few > > of our student > > teachers stay here and teach in the state. We are > > supporting higher > > education to train teachers to teach in Idaho > > schools, and they are > > very intelligently packing their bags and going > > elsewhere to teach upon > > graduation. So, what will happen to both the public > > and private > > schools in Moscow when the 77% of the district > > teachers who are at the > > top of the experience and education scales hit > > retirement (Most of them > > in the next 5 years.), should be interesting to > > watch. > > > > 9. I am all for merit pay. My salary will go up. > > I have a Masters > > degree (3.93 GPA) in History, and the equivalent of > > another in > > post-Masters courses. (I teach Advanced Placement > > U.S. History to high > > school juniors, and my kids are tested by worldwide > > competitive exam, > > administered by the Educational Testing Service, the > > same folks who > > write and administer the College Boards.) > > > > Regards, > > > > Don Kaag > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, July 28, 2003, at 04:27 PM, Dale Courtney > > wrote: > > > > > I wrote the following Letter to the Editor in > > response to Alexis > > > Bacharach's article last weekend. It ran in > > today's Daily News. > > > > > > Best, > > > Dale Courtney > > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moscow teachers are paid more than the state > > average because teacher > > > pay is based on a) the number of college credits > > attained (in any > > > subject) and b) the number of years of teaching. > > However, the article > > > left out many important details. Teachers are > > further compensated in > > > at least three significant ways that are typically > > ignored in salary > > > discussions. First, teacher benefits account for > > an additional 28.6% > > > of their salary. In the private sector, fringe > > benefits average 15.8% > > > of salary. > > > > > > Second, MSD teachers instruct 168-170 days per > > year for the salary > > > discussed above (the national average is 180 > > teaching days per year). > > > The average American works 240 days per > > year—nearly 30 percent more > > > days than government teachers for the pay they > > receive; plus, they > > > have the opportunity to teach summer school, go on > > vacations, take > > > other employment opportunities, or be paid by MSD > > to attend college to > > > add to their salary. To compare MSD teacher > > salaries to the rest of > > > the nation's salaries, teacher salaries must be > > "annualized"—converted > > > from a school year to a 12-month scale. To see the > > results of this > > > normalization, visit > > http://courtneys.us/msd/Teacher_Salaries.htm > > > > > > When you include these first two compensations > > (benefits and > > > annualized salary), the real average MSD teacher > > salary is $63,663; > > > and 77% of all MSD teachers are making over this > > amount. > > > > > > Third, these salary figures do not include extra > > pay for all the > > > extracurricular activities, such as coaching. This > > compensation at MSD > > > can be significant—up to 48% again the teacher's > > base salary. > > > > > > Three things fall out from the above discussion. > > First, teacher pay is > > > not based on merit or excellence in teaching. > > Second, the fastest way > > > to a pay raise is to get more college credit—in > > anything! Third, > > > having 77% of all teachers at the top of the > > salary grid is > > > mismanagement of taxpayer funds. > > > > > > Dale Courtney > > > Moscow > > > > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 29 04:22:25 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 20:22:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article was incomplete In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200307290325.h6T3PsQU033204@whale2.fsr.net> > I think teachers are treated horriblely, and I would fight to > have them keep the pay they have. And this is exactly what is *factually* incorrect. Because of the shorter work year and workday, teachers earn more on an hourly basis. See: http://www.educationnext.org/20033/71.html > Tim, I think having teachers agree to a pay cut is a BAD > idea. This is saying that they can afford a pay cut and will > be used in the future as a way to save money. I think members > of the community need to agree to pay our teachers more pay, > not have the teachers agree to take less pay. I'm going to have a coronary on the table. It's like talking to a rock. Did you not hear *anything* that has been said? 76% of MSD teachers are already earning between $65,000 and $90,000 per year (http://courtneys.us/msd/Teacher_Salaries.htm). Compare this to the fact that the per capita personal income for Idaho was $25,057; for Latah County it was $21,716 (in 1991). Teachers are *well* paid; *overpaid*. One last thing -- non-parochial schools pay 80-85% for comparable teachers in comparable schools (see Podgursky's research on these numbers: http://www.educationnext.org/20033/71.html), and 65% on average because private schools employ a much less top-heavy mix of teachers. No, the union will *never* agree to right-size government education. So the only other option is to out-source it. Best, Dale Courtney From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jul 29 04:43:54 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 03:43:54 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article Message-ID: Dale, Don et. al. I have discovered several logical errors in Dale's arguments regarding teacher pay. Dale asserts that teachers pay should be "annualized" to truly reflect what they could earn over the course of a full year as if two months of extra pay were tacked on to their yearly salary by dividing their salary by ten and multiplying this figure by 2 for the extra two months. But in fact if teachers are required to attend summer school during this "off" time, part of the requirements of their profession negates the possibility they could work full time during this "off" period, so in fact it is not correct to claim their salary must be annualized for a true estimate of their income compared to other professions. Also, Dale's referencing of the concept of "opportunity costs" is in some cases backwards from what it appears he intends to assert via the use of this concept. If a teacher must take summer school during the summer 2 month break from the regular school year as a requirement of their profession, and their next best alternative would be to work a well paying job during this 2 month period instead, the "opportunity cost" of summer school is in part the loss of the income that could have been generated by working during summer school. Therefore the "opportunity cost" argument, in this case of a teacher who must attend summer school as a requirement of their profession, leads to subtracting the money they might have made in the two month break from the regular school year, and does not support the argument that these teachers salaries must be annualized for accuracy in comparisons with other professions. In this example, the "opportunity cost" of summer school is less income earned during that year for the teacher compared to what they could earn if they truly "worked" a full 12 months. The teacher MUST take the summer school courses, and thus loses the income that might otherwise be generated during this time. Of course, in the case of a teacher who can take a two month summer vacation, with no penalty to their career, then Dale's concept of "opportunity costs" would reinforce his argument, considering that the "opportunity cost" of the summer vacation could be income generated by a good paying job during this time period which is lost by going on vacation. In this example it might be fair to annualize the teachers pay to do a comparison between their pay and the pay of other professions. Read the passage below and see the link Dale supplied on "opportunity costs" in regards to my arguments above. Ted > > 4. Continuing recertification requirements generally require > > teachers to go to school every summer, and no, the school > > district does NOT pay us to attend! We pay tuition like > > everyone else. Most of us not attending college courses in > > the summer are working on curriculum, on our own time, "off > > the clock", for the next school year. > >I would double check with the district. There are reimbursements for >teachers in continuing education. > >But *even* if there were not -- I don't know anyone else who gets a salary >increase in any other field just by taking underwater basket weaving. Do >you? My point is: the degree doesn't matter, just punching the ticket for >the classes (*any* classes!). > >Also, there's no requirement that the teacher get a degree in his/her area >of specialty. A math teacher with a BA, weary of those long nights deriving >proofs in college, may choose to get a M.Ed. -- much easier; and, hey! The >pay on the other end is the same! There's no incentive to get a degree in >your specialty. > > > 5. If you are attending summer school most of the summer, the > > chances of A) other employment, or B) extended vacations, are slim. > >But these are opportunity costs (see: > http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/OpportunityCost.html). > >I don't know very many businessmen/women who have the opportunity to take >the entire summer "off" if they so choose. > > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dkaag@turbonet.com Tue Jul 29 04:56:35 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 20:56:35 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article was incomplete In-Reply-To: <20030729020229.44277.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tim: I don't aspire to speak for Moscow teachers' professional association, just myself. To answer your question, why would any intelligent, educated, person, with house payments, car payments, food bills, taxes, kids to send to college, etc., voluntarily reduce their salary? And people with little knowledge of teaching and education in general would still carp about their being too many teachers per student load, even if we all agreed to take a pay cut in the interests of protecting our colleagues' jobs, so what would be the point? The Moscow Education Association has nothing whatsoever to say about administrators' salaries. They are not members, and their group negotiates separately with the Superintendent and the Board on salary and compensation issues. And, parenthetically, does so much more successfully than the teaching staff, if you check the raises accrued by administrators over the same three year period I mentioned. Yes, since Moscow is a university town, it will always have its share of unemployed and underemployed teachers wandering the streets. It is the nature of a university town. Most of them are not beginning teachers. Many have applied for jobs in the district and not made the cut, others are here so they or a spouse can get an advanced degree. Hiring them wouldn't save the district much in the pay and benefits department. And the overall shortage of teachers in Idaho is going to get very much worse in the next 5 to 10 years. The only way those teaching jobs being vacated by retiring teachers will be filled is by raising beginning teachers' salaries to keep recently-graduated teachers in, or attract them to, the state. And even that won't tempt them if they look at the salary scale and see that if they stay here, they will be required to get a bunch more education at their own expense, and will not be adequately compensated for it as they rise in seniority. If there is a lousy career path, most college graduates are smart enough not to follow it. If you want to see the future, look around, because other western states are already paying bounties for teachers to come and teach in their schools. Back east, some states are paying as much as $20,000 for a teacher willing to commit to a 5 year extended contract. On Monday, July 28, 2003, at 07:02 PM, Tim Lohrmann wrote: > Don, > This is an era when teachers are being laid off > from their jobs because of either a lack of funding or > a decline in the number of students or both. > Why doesn't the teacher's union, in the spirit of > solidarity, voluntarily adopt an across the board pay > cut for all teachers and especially the higher paid > administrators in the approximate per-capita amount > that it would require to retain those teachers? > The issue these days doesn't seem to involve > teachers with much bargaining power to make demands > other than retaining their jobs. There are many > qualified teachers in Moscow who are unemployed, > underemployed etc. Most teaching jobs advertised in > the public schools hereabouts receive dozens of > applications. > If the union is sincerely concerned with the > cutbacks and layoffs it would seem that they should > demonstrate it. > > TL > > > > > --- Don Kaag wrote: >> Dale: >> >> As the token public school teacher, I have a couple >> of questions and >> comments... >> >> 1. Our compensation package is not as good as >> either UI or WSU. >> >> 2. In the last three years, the cost of our medical >> insurance to each >> member (and we are required to be members of the >> pool...) has increased >> each year by more than the district has increased >> their contribution. >> Given that our salaries have not come close to >> matching annual >> cost-of-living inflation, that means that, in >> effect, we have >> experienced pay cuts for at least the last three >> years. >> >> 3. What summer school? >> >> 4. Continuing recertification requirements generally >> require teachers >> to go to school every summer, and no, the school >> district does NOT pay >> us to attend! We pay tuition like everyone else. >> Most of us not >> attending college courses in the summer are working >> on curriculum, on >> our own time, "off the clock", for the next school >> year. >> >> 5. If you are attending summer school most of the >> summer, the chances >> of A) other employment, or B) extended vacations, >> are slim. >> >> 6. There are very few coaches as a percentage of >> the total number of >> teachers in this district. Those teachers who do >> coach make a >> pittance, and work long hours on nights and weekends >> to earn it. Most >> of the extracurricular activities requiring teacher >> presence are >> covered by volunteer teachers, i.e., WE DO NOT GET >> PAID FOR OUR TIME >> OUTSIDE OF THE SCHOOL DAY! >> >> 7. Most of the teachers I know come early and stay >> late. >> Additionally, we work nights and weekends on >> correcting assignments and >> exams, writing lesson plans, contacting parents, and >> on professional >> reading and education. >> >> 8. Salaries in Idaho are so low, and the attitude >> of many Idahoans >> towards public education is so poor, that very few >> of our student >> teachers stay here and teach in the state. We are >> supporting higher >> education to train teachers to teach in Idaho >> schools, and they are >> very intelligently packing their bags and going >> elsewhere to teach upon >> graduation. So, what will happen to both the public >> and private >> schools in Moscow when the 77% of the district >> teachers who are at the >> top of the experience and education scales hit >> retirement (Most of them >> in the next 5 years.), should be interesting to >> watch. >> >> 9. I am all for merit pay. My salary will go up. >> I have a Masters >> degree (3.93 GPA) in History, and the equivalent of >> another in >> post-Masters courses. (I teach Advanced Placement >> U.S. History to high >> school juniors, and my kids are tested by worldwide >> competitive exam, >> administered by the Educational Testing Service, the >> same folks who >> write and administer the College Boards.) >> >> Regards, >> >> Don Kaag >> >> >> >> >> On Monday, July 28, 2003, at 04:27 PM, Dale Courtney >> wrote: >> >>> I wrote the following Letter to the Editor in >> response to Alexis >>> Bacharach's article last weekend. It ran in >> today's Daily News. >>> >>> Best, >>> Dale Courtney >>> Moscow, Idaho >>> >> >>> >>> >>> Moscow teachers are paid more than the state >> average because teacher >>> pay is based on a) the number of college credits >> attained (in any >>> subject) and b) the number of years of teaching. >> However, the article >>> left out many important details. Teachers are >> further compensated in >>> at least three significant ways that are typically >> ignored in salary >>> discussions. First, teacher benefits account for >> an additional 28.6% >>> of their salary. In the private sector, fringe >> benefits average 15.8% >>> of salary. >>> >>> Second, MSD teachers instruct 168-170 days per >> year for the salary >>> discussed above (the national average is 180 >> teaching days per year). >>> The average American works 240 days per >> year—nearly 30 percent more >>> days than government teachers for the pay they >> receive; plus, they >>> have the opportunity to teach summer school, go on >> vacations, take >>> other employment opportunities, or be paid by MSD >> to attend college to >>> add to their salary. To compare MSD teacher >> salaries to the rest of >>> the nation's salaries, teacher salaries must be >> "annualized"—converted >>> from a school year to a 12-month scale. To see the >> results of this >>> normalization, visit >> http://courtneys.us/msd/Teacher_Salaries.htm >>> >>> When you include these first two compensations >> (benefits and >>> annualized salary), the real average MSD teacher >> salary is $63,663; >>> and 77% of all MSD teachers are making over this >> amount. >>> >>> Third, these salary figures do not include extra >> pay for all the >>> extracurricular activities, such as coaching. This >> compensation at MSD >>> can be significant—up to 48% again the teacher's >> base salary. >>> >>> Three things fall out from the above discussion. >> First, teacher pay is >>> not based on merit or excellence in teaching. >> Second, the fastest way >>> to a pay raise is to get more college credit—in >> anything! Third, >>> having 77% of all teachers at the top of the >> salary grid is >>> mismanagement of taxpayer funds. >>> >>> Dale Courtney >>> Moscow >>> >> > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 05:02:16 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Water Usage Message-ID: <20030729040217.24146.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1009283735-1059451336=:23208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii why would you shop at WalMart, and then complain about water conservation measures? WalMart is the most wasteful corporation in the United States! the best thing to do is to boycott WalMart, boycott the University of I-gnorance (until they disclose where $40-45 million went when Hoover left), boycott Christ church, boycott Bucer's, boycott Zume... that's really where your focus needs to be, Janesta: "Stop picking on the water sprinklers: They're just doing their job!!" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1009283735-1059451336=:23208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
why would you shop at WalMart, and then complain about water conservation measures?  WalMart is the most wasteful corporation in the United States!
 
the best thing to do is to boycott WalMart, boycott the University of I-gnorance (until they disclose where $40-45 million went when Hoover left), boycott Christ church, boycott Bucer's, boycott Zume...
 
that's really where your focus needs to be, Janesta:
 
"Stop picking on the water sprinklers: They're just doing their job!!"

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1009283735-1059451336=:23208-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 05:08:44 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] The Rose Bowl and Teacher's Salaries Message-ID: <20030729040844.40626.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1676673885-1059451724=:38340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii HERE'S SOME VISION 2020 FROM JANUARY: TAKE THE UNSOLD TICKETS, AND GIVE THEM TO THE F**KING selfish TEACHERS IN IDAHO, AND HAVE THEM RAISE MONEY BY SELLING THOSE UNUSED TICKETS AS MEMORABILIA!! stop complaining...**************************************************************************What I found most interesting about the Rose Bowl was the information in the Lewiston Tribune that the bowl had very low attendance, and that thousands of WSU tickets remained unsold. Why--if 5 years ago the WSU tickets all sold and many at inflated prices--did WSU not sell out this time? BL ************************************************************************ Don Kaag wrote: > Visionaries: > > So, I logged onto my email this morning and there was nothing posted on Vision 2020 but dirges about the Cougs' lackluster performance in Pasadena. > > Was there a Rose Bowl game yesterday? > > For those of us who would rather read biography and History than "get our game face on" and watch large, semi-agile, goons run into each other on the vidiot box, WSU's dismal performance in the Rose Bowl is a mere bagatelle. > > Given that most of the WSU squad were not even Washington natives made it even less attractive. You'd have thought that they would have performed better in front of their home crowd, however---since many of them are from California. > > I didn't even know who won the game until I, as usual, sorted the > sports page out of the SR and into the discard pile this morning, in > pursuit of the funnies and political cartoons. Back to Ambrose's essay on Dwight David Eisenhower's contribution to the founding of NATO, and the eventual withering-away of the Evil Empire (Steven Ambrose was Ike's designated editor and biographer...). > > Keep your chins up. Perhaps WSU can hire another coach who can make his name by taking the Cougars to a Rose Bowl and then bail to a REAL football school prior to the big game. > > Heh, heh, > > Don Kaag > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1676673885-1059451724=:38340 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

HERE'S SOME VISION 2020 FROM JANUARY: TAKE THE UNSOLD TICKETS, AND GIVE THEM TO THE F**KING selfish TEACHERS IN IDAHO, AND HAVE THEM RAISE MONEY BY SELLING THOSE UNUSED TICKETS AS MEMORABILIA!!  stop complaining...

**************************************************************************

What I found most interesting about the Rose Bowl was the information in the Lewiston Tribune that the bowl had very low attendance, and that thousands of WSU tickets remained unsold.
Why--if 5 years ago the WSU tickets all sold and many at inflated
prices--did WSU not sell out this time?
BL
************************************************************************
Don Kaag wrote:

> Visionaries:
>
> So, I logged onto my email this morning and there was nothing posted on Vision 2020 but dirges about the Cougs' lackluster performance in Pasadena.
>
> Was there a Rose Bowl game yesterday?
>
> For those of us who would rather read biography and History than "get our game face on" and watch large, semi-agile, goons run into each other on the vidiot box, WSU's dismal performance in the Rose Bowl is a mere bagatelle.
>
> Given that most of the WSU squad were not even Washington natives made it even less attractive.  You'd have thought that they would have performed better in front of their home crowd, however---since many of them are from California.
>
> I didn't even know who won the game until I, as usual, sorted the
> sports page out of the SR and into the discard pile this morning, in
> pursuit of the funnies and political cartoons.  Back to Ambrose's essay ! on Dwight David Eisenhower's contribution to the founding of  NATO, and the eventual withering-away of the Evil Empire (Steven Ambrose was Ike's designated editor and biographer...).
>
> Keep your chins up.  Perhaps WSU can hire another coach who can make his name by taking the Cougars to a Rose Bowl and then bail to a REAL football school prior to the big game.
>
> Heh, heh,
>
> Don Kaag
>

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1676673885-1059451724=:38340-- From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 29 05:22:27 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:22:27 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200307290425.h6T4PtQU022430@whale2.fsr.net> Ted wrote: > I have discovered several logical errors in Dale's arguments > regarding teacher pay. Let's have at it! > Dale asserts that teachers pay should be "annualized" to > truly reflect what they could earn over the course of a full > year as if two months of extra pay were tacked on to their > yearly salary by dividing their salary by ten and multiplying > this figure by 2 for the extra two months. But in fact if > teachers are required to attend summer school during this > "off" time, part of the requirements of their profession > negates the possibility they could work full time during this > "off" period, so in fact it is not correct to claim their > salary must be annualized for a true estimate of their income > compared to other professions. They are not *required* to attend during school during that off time. They can teach summer school, go on a 3 month cruise, or hand out carts at Wal-Mart. It's up to them. The point is -- it is an *opportunity* for them to earn extra money. Going to school is one way that they can increase their pay. > Also, Dale's referencing of the concept of "opportunity > costs" is in some cases backwards from what it appears he > intends to assert via the use of this concept. If a teacher > must take summer school during the summer 2 month break from > the regular school year as a requirement of their profession, > and their next best alternative would be to work a well > paying job during this 2 month period instead, the > "opportunity cost" of summer school is in part the loss of > the income that could have been generated by working during > summer school. No, they must *not* take classes. It is an opportunity to. Please read up on what Opportunity Costs mean in the economic sense. It's quite revealing: http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/OpportunityCost.html > Read the passage below and see the link Dale supplied on > "opportunity costs" > in regards to my arguments above. You missed the boat because there is no mandatory thing that government teachers *must* do during their summers off. That's what makes it a real dream for their opportunities. Best, Dale From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 29 05:36:33 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:36:33 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article was incomplete In-Reply-To: <20030729020229.44277.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200307290440.h6T4e1QU042139@whale2.fsr.net> Tim writes: > This is an era when teachers are being laid off from > their jobs because of either a lack of funding or a decline > in the number of students or both. And with a decline of 15% (see http://courtneys.us/msd/msd_enrollment.htm), you just *have* to wonder how MSD can continue to add staff to their rolls (http://courtneys.us/msd/MSD_Trends.htm). In fact, MSD is adding staff faster than the kids are leaving MSD. Go figure! > Why doesn't the teacher's union, in the spirit of > solidarity, voluntarily adopt an across the board pay cut for > all teachers and especially the higher paid administrators in > the approximate per-capita amount that it would require to > retain those teachers? Because the union, like all unions, cares about the needs/desires/wants of its constituency (the teachers). This translates to more pay, fewer hours, more benefits, etc. > The issue these days doesn't seem to involve teachers > with much bargaining power to make demands other than > retaining their jobs. There are many qualified teachers in > Moscow who are unemployed, underemployed etc. Most teaching > jobs advertised in the public schools hereabouts receive > dozens of applications. Wouldn't *anyone* who has a B.A. apply for a job that starts (with all the benefits) at $34k (with zero experience)? > If the union is sincerely concerned with the cutbacks and > layoffs it would seem that they should demonstrate it. Again, that's *not* what the union really cares about. The union cares about the things that its dues-payers care about. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From escape@alt-escape.com Tue Jul 29 05:59:09 2003 From: escape@alt-escape.com (Bob Hoffmann) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:59:09 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again In-Reply-To: <000e01c35561$e0b39500$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030728215005.01db7c40@mail.turbonet.com> At 04:42 PM 7/28/2003 -0700, John Danahy wrote: >There has been a great deal of development in and around the city, why >hasn't this development resulted in sufficient increases in tax >revenues? Are tax breaks being given to spur development? John & Co., The misconception is that development increases revenues, decreasing the total tax burden. Development generally increases expenditures, and the taxes generated are typically insufficient to cover the increase in municipal expenditures. This eventually results in an overall increase in taxation. New development means new roads, new sewers, new schools and fire departments, etc. While there are more efficient modes of development (such as cluster housing) that use fewer roads, sewers, etc., developers frequently would rather increase infrastructure costs, because they pass these costs at a profit to the consumer. And then they leave the infrastructure to the city to maintain. Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jul 29 06:30:47 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:30:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again Message-ID: I can see this point being made in the short run. Obviously a road and sewage is going to costs more to build and pay off. However, would it not eventually make the city money as the taxes paid on the housing units pay off the costs of the road and other utilities? Just a thought. Donovan J Arnold >From: Bob Hoffmann >To: "Vision2020" >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:59:09 -0700 > >At 04:42 PM 7/28/2003 -0700, John Danahy wrote: >>There has been a great deal of development in and around the city, why >>hasn't this development resulted in sufficient increases in tax revenues? >>Are tax breaks being given to spur development? > >John & Co., > >The misconception is that development increases revenues, decreasing the >total tax burden. Development generally increases expenditures, and the >taxes generated are typically insufficient to cover the increase in >municipal expenditures. This eventually results in an overall increase in >taxation. New development means new roads, new sewers, new schools and >fire departments, etc. While there are more efficient modes of development >(such as cluster housing) that use fewer roads, sewers, etc., developers >frequently would rather increase infrastructure costs, because they pass >these costs at a profit to the consumer. And then they leave the >infrastructure to the city to maintain. > > >Bob Hoffmann >820 S. Logan St. >Moscow, ID 83843 > >Tel: 208 883-0642 > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Tue Jul 29 06:52:18 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 01:52:18 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again Message-ID: <144.163c51d9.2c576592@aol.com> --part1_144.163c51d9.2c576592_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The University is supposed to be a nonprofit educational system. What are they doing in the housing business? The apartment business? Those are profit bearing. They have nothing to do with higher education. That portion of the University business should not be tax free. They should pay property taxes the same as the rest of us. We educate their kids. We handle their sewage and water. Wake up! I'll bet ya a smart attorney might be able to slap the University around with that one. Phil --part1_144.163c51d9.2c576592_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The University is supposed to be a nonprofit education= al system. What are they doing in the housing business? The apartment busine= ss? Those are profit bearing. They have nothing to do with higher education.= That portion of the University business should not be tax free. They should= pay property taxes the same as the rest of us. We educate their kids. We ha= ndle their sewage and water. Wake up! I'll bet ya a smart attorney might be=20= able to slap the University around with that one.

Phil --part1_144.163c51d9.2c576592_boundary-- From ridethesaintedrhythms@hotmail.com Tue Jul 29 07:45:07 2003 From: ridethesaintedrhythms@hotmail.com (Joshua Gibbs) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 06:45:07 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: CHRIST church - DOWN FOR THE COUNT! - 8, 9, 10 Message-ID: Luke, I thought maybe I could take some of Stambler's retardation from people he constantly gives it, have a little for myself. But I don't think it's worth it, like you say. I'm fine with ending up muddy, but in this case, the pig isn't smart enough to know when it's lost. Thanks for the advice. Joshua >From: "Luke" >To: "Joshua Gibbs" >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: CHRIST church - DOWN FOR THE COUNT! - 8, 9, >10 >Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:50:23 -0700 > >Dear Josh: > A suggestion from a younger brother - Stambler isn't worth the expense >of your own image in attacking him. By tangling with a pig in the mud, >you'll end up rather muddy too. >In Christ, >Luke Nieuwsma >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joshua Gibbs" >To: ; >Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 5:31 PM >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: CHRIST church - DOWN FOR THE COUNT! - 8, 9, >10 > > > > > > Head Prophet, > > > > When you're the president, in the future, are you going to keep that >fried > > hair you have when you go on television to address the nation? I tell >you > > what, promise me you'll keep the goofy hair, and I'll totally vote for >you. > > > > And quit being jealous of Doug Wilson. You know you'd give your good >spot >at > > the shelter for a single follower. > > > > Oh Snap, > > Josh > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jul 29 07:56:50 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 23:56:50 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again Message-ID: Phil writes: "The University is supposed to be a nonprofit educational system. What are >they doing in the housing business? The apartment business? Those are >profit >bearing. They have nothing to do with higher education. That portion of the >University business should not be tax free. They should pay property taxes >the same >as the rest of us. We educate their kids. We handle their sewage and water. >Wake up! I'll bet ya a smart attorney might be able to slap the University >around with that one." I am nearly having a heart attack! Me and Phil Agree! This is exactly what I have been saying for about 3 years at the UI. They are in the health care business, the health club business, the road care business, the farming business, the mall business, the computer business, the housing business, the food business, the laundry business, the gardening business, the photocopy business, the clothing business, and the food service business. They need to get out of all that and get back to the business they are paid to do, education. We need to shut down the Wallace Complex, the McConnell Building, and the Tower. We need to sell the land that Fraternities and Sororities are on. We need to give control of the city streets back to the City, We need to sell the land under the Palouse Mall. We need to get rid of the pointless required health insurance that covers nothing and then kick Sodexho out of Moscow. The people of Moscow are smart enough to provide these services without the help of national corporations or the government stepping in to baby-sit us, and we don't need the profits going to stock investors and CEO's in New York, we need them here in Moscow. Moscow residents are are getting the $5.15 an hour jobs while others are making huge profits off our labor, this needs to stop. Before the 1980's Moscow Residents use to live pretty well, now they are spending about 40 percent of their income just on housing and paying ever increasing property taxes. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 01:52:18 >EDT > >The University is supposed to be a nonprofit educational system. What are >they doing in the housing business? The apartment business? Those are >profit >bearing. They have nothing to do with higher education. That portion of the >University business should not be tax free. They should pay property taxes >the same >as the rest of us. We educate their kids. We handle their sewage and water. >Wake up! I'll bet ya a smart attorney might be able to slap the University >around with that one. > >Phil _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From strand@pacsim.com Tue Jul 29 15:17:31 2003 From: strand@pacsim.com (Bill Strand) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 07:17:31 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030728215005.01db7c40@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: <000701c355dc$26042dc0$edb7130a@engstrand> Hi Bob, The word "development" is a broad term. You seem to be applying it specifically to housing development. I must admit, I have very little experience in this area and can't argue with your comments. However, business development can be a different matter. New business does not necessarily affect sewers, water use, schools, etc... However, this is a long term investment. Don't expect an investment in business development to lower your property taxes next year. Like any good investment, it takes time to mature. But the alternative employers in this town are the University, the City, the County, Gritman, etc... All these entities pay no property taxes. As these grow, more and more property will be removed from the tax rolls and your property taxes will increase. The universities are a great asset to this area. We would not have founded our business here without the universities. But there are negative aspects to depending upon them for our local economy - the primary one being high property taxes. The universities must be balanced with a healthy business community. Bill Strand From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 16:09:43 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Predictions For August 2003 Message-ID: <20030729150943.53799.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> --0-739761787-1059491383=:52354 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The Month of August 2003 Too many problems in the world now. A mathematician could not solve them. The Book of Revelation in The New Testament explains why all these events are happening: These are the End Times, it is to be expected. Here are my predictions for the month of August 2003. 1) There will be a nuclear war, somewhere in the world. 2) Millions of people, worldwide, will die -as if spontaneously- from inexplicable causes. 3) 90% of all universities and colleges will cancel Fall semester 2003. 4) The East Coast of the United States will displace at least 3 million of its current population. 5) Pullman, Washington will be totally abandoned. 6) Moscow, Idaho will be all but abandoned. 7) The United States will experience an acute gas shortage. Rural areas will be most severely affected by this. Many rural communities will be abandoned. 8) Train transportation will be the only possible long distance mode of travel in the United States. 9) The Internet will crash, never to be fully functional again. 10) The United States federal government will go into hiding. 11) Crooks and wrongdoers will inexplicably confess all their law-breaking deeds. Then, they will inexplicably die. 12) Europe will be overrun by gangs. 13) The food supply in the Northwest will be secure, only if food is only grown in greenhouses. All other farming will not yield crops. 14) All foreign nationals in the United States will be urged to permanently leave the United States. Violence against foreign nationals will unfortunately become a regular occurrence. 15) Christ will spare no one, who has been slated for dying. 16) Millions of married couples will find themselves inexplicably and permanently separated. 17) All those who fornicate after receiving a personal sign from God not to, will perish within 7 months. How prediction works Prediction is not at all like science. Either the prediction comes to pass, or it doesn't. There is no in-between. In science, there is much room for error. But when predicting, there is no room for error: All predictions must come true in order for anyone predicting to have any credibility. Either the person predicting is 100% accurate, or they are 100% incorrect. There is no middle ground when predictions are made, because too much is at stake. Statistics are useless, because all predictions are based on the future, and only marginally on the past. Rapidly uncontrollable world events like the civil war in Liberia; the inhumane conquest of the Iraqi people by the United States; the almost random death, worldwide, that happens daily. All of our lives will soon be radically changed by the "unpredictability" of world events. But it is not that these events are unpredictable, but rather that they are unstoppable. Any Christian knows that The End Times are upon us. Death, then, will become an ordinary, daily occurrence for young and old, all around the world. Without prediction, humanity has much less of a chance to survive. Only God-given prediction can help humans organize in these very deadly and unimaginable times. The perfection of God's timing Only God knows precisely when an event should happen. For example, if God assigns a specific time when He will communicate some specific information to human beings, then that information will not be given before or after the appropriate time. All ongoing revelation from God is given to human beings with divine perfection, and that always means "at the right time." When 1 + 1 does not equal 2 How is it that predictions come to pass in non-linear fashion? That's the nature of prediction. True, predicted events happen as if in a whirlwind that has no beginning, no ending and seemingly comes out of nowhere. Predicted events can be subtle or obvious, and they always defy logic. Only people with a decent amount of faith can understand and appreciate the true characteristics of predicted events. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Moscow, Idaho) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-739761787-1059491383=:52354 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
The Month of August 2003
 
Too many problems in the world now.  A mathematician could not solve them.  The Book of Revelation in The New Testament explains why all these events are happening: These are the End Times, it is to be expected.  Here are my predictions for the month of August 2003.
 
1) There will be a nuclear war, somewhere in the world.
2) Millions of people, worldwide, will die -as if spontaneously- from inexplicable causes.
3) 90% of all universities and colleges will cancel Fall semester 2003.
4) The East Coast of the United States will displace at least 3 million of its current population.
5) Pullman, Washington will be totally abandoned.
6) Moscow, Idaho will be all but abandoned.
7) The United States will experience an acute gas shortage.  Rural areas will be most severely affected by this.  Many rural communities will be abandoned.
8) Train transportation will be the only possible long distance mode of travel in the United States.
9) The Internet will crash, never to be fully functional again.
10) The United States federal government will go into hiding.
11) Crooks and wrongdoers will inexplicably confess all their law-breaking deeds.  Then, they will inexplicably die.
12) Europe will be overrun by gangs.
13) The food supply in the Northwest will be secure, only if food is only grown in greenhouses.  All other farming will not yield crops.
14) All foreign nationals in the United States will be urged to permanently leave the United States.  Violence against foreign nationals will unfortunately become a regular occurrence.
15) Christ will spare no one, who has been slated for dying.
16) Millions of married couples will find themselves inexplicably and permanently separated.
17) All those who fornicate after receiving a personal sign from God not to, will perish within 7 months.
 
How prediction works
 
Prediction is not at all like science.  Either the prediction comes to pass, or it doesn't.  There is no in-between.  In science, there is much room for error.  But when predicting, there is no room for error: All predictions must come true in order for anyone predicting to have any credibility.  Either the person predicting is 100% accurate, or they are 100% incorrect.  There is no middle ground when predictions are made, because too much is at stake.  Statistics are useless, because all predictions are based on the future, and only marginally on the past.
 
Rapidly uncontrollable world events like the civil war in Liberia; the inhumane conquest of the Iraqi people by the United States; the almost random death, worldwide, that happens daily.  All of our lives will soon be radically changed by the "unpredictability" of world events.  But it is not that these events are unpredictable, but rather that they are unstoppable.  Any Christian knows that The End Times are upon us.  Death, then, will become an ordinary, daily occurrence for young and old, all around the world.  Without prediction, humanity has much less of a chance to survive.  Only God-given prediction can help humans organize in these very deadly and unimaginable times.
 
The perfection of God's timing
 
Only God knows precisely when an event should happen.  For example, if God assigns a specific time when He will communicate some specific information to human beings, then that information will not be given before or after the appropriate time.  All ongoing revelation from God is given to human beings with divine perfection, and that always means "at the right time."
 
When 1 + 1 does not equal 2
 
How is it that predictions come to pass in non-linear fashion?  That's the nature of prediction.  True, predicted events happen as if in a whirlwind that has no beginning, no ending and seemingly comes out of nowhere.  Predicted events can be subtle or obvious, and they always defy logic.  Only people with a decent amount of faith can understand and appreciate the true characteristics of predicted events.
 
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Moscow, Idaho)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-739761787-1059491383=:52354-- From jon@n-k-ins.com Tue Jul 29 16:17:33 2003 From: jon@n-k-ins.com (Jon Kimberling) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:17:33 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] city taxes References: <000601c35567$5b18a4c0$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> Message-ID: <003201c355e4$890c8770$0da8a8c0@JON> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C355A9.DC76E800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: water- my understanding is base rate. My view on the rate is that we = need to continue to build reserves in the water fund. This is the = compromise we came up with. There is interest for tiered rating, ways to = possibly increase incentives to conserve this resource. To do that I = believe this fund needs to on solid financial ground. Re: salary- we've already had this discussion and you know the answer to = the question. The City adopted compensation numbers based on information = from BDPA. All City employees were impacted. It just happened that some = of our top people(in the pay scale) were the most underpaid. Is it fair = to characterize that as a "significant salary increase?" Not in my book. = It was a one time correction. However, lets look at the chart below: 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004=20 COLA $91,137 $96,811 $174,702 $52,573 =20 Merit Increase $162,743 $100,675 $178,050 $128,547 =20 Pay for Performance $188,385=20 Total Actual $253,880 $197,486 $352,752 $181,120 $188,385=20 When the City made the decision to switch to pay for performance = compensation, we also said that we did not expect it to balloon salary = costs. I believe this chart confirms that fact. Jon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Danahy=20 To: 'Jon Kimberling' ; 'Vision2020'=20 Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 5:21 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city taxes Jon;=20 Thanks for responding. The 4% for water, is that basic rate or actual usage, or both? Also, = why increase rates at this time when less than a year ago basic rate = doubled? I think I remember, shortly after the pump was fixed, the city = announcing that the water department was broke, and rates were doubled. And Jon, if the city was receiving reduced revenues from the state, = why did the city significantly increase salaries for top administrators? Thanks again. John -----Original Message----- From: Jon Kimberling [mailto:jon@n-k-ins.com]=20 Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:47 PM To: John Danahy; Vision2020 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] city tazes John- the city budget for the coming year provides for the following = increases: 3% property tax increase(as allowed by State law) $25,436 of previously available but not taken property tax- this is = catch up for an overly conservative estimate made a year ago on the = growth of our tax base 4% for sewer rates 4% for water rates I would note that prior to this year the City had taken a total of 10% = of the 24% available over the last 8 years. Other sister institutions in = the state have consistently taken their 3% annually. One of the reasons for the increase is that the City is receiving = reduced revenues from the State. Specifically, our revenues from the = State including state-share revenues, sales tax and highway user fees = are all lagging. I'm hopeful that last months positive revenue report = from the State is the beginning of a positive trend about the business = climate within the state. Thanks for the question. Jon Kimberling ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Danahy=20 To: Vision2020=20 Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: [Vision2020] city tazes I heard somewhere that the city of Moscow has decided to raise local = property taxes by 4%. Is this true? And if so, Why? John ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C355A9.DC76E800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Re: water- my understanding is base = rate. My view=20 on the rate is that we need to continue to build reserves in the water = fund.=20 This is the compromise we came up with. There is interest for tiered = rating,=20 ways to possibly increase incentives to conserve this resource. To do = that I=20 believe this fund needs to on solid financial ground.
 
Re: salary- we've already had this = discussion=20 and you know the answer to the question. The City adopted compensation = numbers=20 based on information from BDPA. All City employees were impacted. = It just=20 happened that some of our top people(in the pay scale) were the most = underpaid.=20 Is it fair to characterize that as a "significant salary increase?" Not = in my=20 book. It was a one time correction.
 
However, lets look at the chart=20 below:
 
  2000 2001 2002 2003 2004
COLA $91,137 $96,811 $174,702 $52,573  
Merit Increase $162,743 $100,675 $178,050 $128,547  
Pay for Performance         $188,385
Total Actual $253,880 $197,486 $352,752 $181,120 $188,385
 
When the City made the decision to switch to pay for performance=20 compensation, we also said that we did not expect it to balloon salary = costs. I=20 believe this chart confirms that fact.
 
Jon
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Danahy
To: 'Jon Kimberling' ; 'Vision2020'
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 = 5:21 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] city=20 taxes

Jon;=20

Thanks for=20 responding.

 

The 4% for = water, is=20 that basic rate or actual usage, or both?  Also, why increase = rates at=20 this time when less than a year ago basic rate doubled?  I think = I=20 remember, shortly after the pump was fixed, the city announcing that = the water=20 department was broke, and rates were doubled.

 

And Jon, if = the city=20 was receiving reduced revenues from the state, why did the city = significantly=20 increase salaries for top administrators?

 

Thanks=20 again.

John

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Jon=20 Kimberling [mailto:jon@n-k-ins.com]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 = 12:47=20 PM
To: John Danahy; = Vision2020
Subject: = Re:=20 [Vision2020] city tazes

 

John- the city budget = for the=20 coming year provides for the following = increases:

 

3% property tax = increase(as=20 allowed by State law)

$25,436 of = previously=20 available but not taken property tax- this is catch up for an overly=20 conservative estimate made a year ago on the growth of our tax=20 base

4% for sewer=20 rates

4% for water=20 rates

 

I would note that prior = to this=20 year the City had taken a total of 10% of the 24% available over = the last=20 8 years. Other sister institutions in the state have consistently = taken their=20 3% annually.

 

One of the reasons for = the=20 increase is that the City is receiving reduced revenues from the = State.=20 Specifically, our revenues from the State including = state-share=20 revenues, sales tax and highway user fees are = all lagging.=20 I'm hopeful that last months positive revenue report from the State is = the=20 beginning of a positive trend about the business climate within the=20 state.

 

Thanks for the=20 question.

 

Jon=20 Kimberling

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----=20

From: John=20 Danahy

To: Vision2020 =

Sent: Sunday,=20 July 27, 2003 9:10 PM

Subject:=20 [Vision2020] city tazes

 

I heard somewhere that = the city=20 of Moscow has decided to raise local property taxes by 4%.  Is = this=20 true?  And if so, Why?

John

 

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C355A9.DC76E800-- From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Tue Jul 29 17:15:32 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:15:32 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Predictions For August 2003 Message-ID: I'm a little concerned about this. I live in Moscow, which is going to be abandoned next month. I work at the University of Idaho, which, if 90% of all universities are going to cancel fall semester, may well be one of those institutions that do so. These two events alone, not to mention the others, cannot help but have a significant impact on my lifestyle. Carl Westberg Jr. >From: Douglas Stambler >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] Predictions For August 2003 >Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:09:43 -0700 (PDT) > >The Month of August 2003 > >Too many problems in the world now. A mathematician could not solve them. >The Book of Revelation in The New Testament explains why all these events >are happening: These are the End Times, it is to be expected. Here are my >predictions for the month of August 2003. > >1) There will be a nuclear war, somewhere in the world. >2) Millions of people, worldwide, will die -as if spontaneously- from >inexplicable causes. >3) 90% of all universities and colleges will cancel Fall semester 2003. >4) The East Coast of the United States will displace at least 3 million of >its current population. >5) Pullman, Washington will be totally abandoned. >6) Moscow, Idaho will be all but abandoned. >7) The United States will experience an acute gas shortage. Rural areas >will be most severely affected by this. Many rural communities will be >abandoned. >8) Train transportation will be the only possible long distance mode of >travel in the United States. >9) The Internet will crash, never to be fully functional again. >10) The United States federal government will go into hiding. >11) Crooks and wrongdoers will inexplicably confess all their law-breaking >deeds. Then, they will inexplicably die. >12) Europe will be overrun by gangs. >13) The food supply in the Northwest will be secure, only if food is only >grown in greenhouses. All other farming will not yield crops. >14) All foreign nationals in the United States will be urged to permanently >leave the United States. Violence against foreign nationals will >unfortunately become a regular occurrence. >15) Christ will spare no one, who has been slated for dying. >16) Millions of married couples will find themselves inexplicably and >permanently separated. >17) All those who fornicate after receiving a personal sign from God not >to, will perish within 7 months. > >How prediction works > >Prediction is not at all like science. Either the prediction comes to >pass, or it doesn't. There is no in-between. In science, there is much >room for error. But when predicting, there is no room for error: All >predictions must come true in order for anyone predicting to have any >credibility. Either the person predicting is 100% accurate, or they are >100% incorrect. There is no middle ground when predictions are made, >because too much is at stake. Statistics are useless, because all >predictions are based on the future, and only marginally on the past. > >Rapidly uncontrollable world events like the civil war in Liberia; the >inhumane conquest of the Iraqi people by the United States; the almost >random death, worldwide, that happens daily. All of our lives will soon be >radically changed by the "unpredictability" of world events. But it is not >that these events are unpredictable, but rather that they are unstoppable. >Any Christian knows that The End Times are upon us. Death, then, will >become an ordinary, daily occurrence for young and old, all around the >world. Without prediction, humanity has much less of a chance to survive. >Only God-given prediction can help humans organize in these very deadly and >unimaginable times. > >The perfection of God's timing > >Only God knows precisely when an event should happen. For example, if God >assigns a specific time when He will communicate some specific information >to human beings, then that information will not be given before or after >the appropriate time. All ongoing revelation from God is given to human >beings with divine perfection, and that always means "at the right time." > >When 1 + 1 does not equal 2 > >How is it that predictions come to pass in non-linear fashion? That's the >nature of prediction. True, predicted events happen as if in a whirlwind >that has no beginning, no ending and seemingly comes out of nowhere. >Predicted events can be subtle or obvious, and they always defy logic. >Only people with a decent amount of faith can understand and appreciate the >true characteristics of predicted events. > > >In Christ, >Douglas Stambler >(Moscow, Idaho) > > > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From nielsen@uidaho.edu Tue Jul 29 17:59:04 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:59:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Predictions for August 2003 In-Reply-To: <20030729151900.17019.56867.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: --Apple-Mail-4--413633728 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > From: Douglas Stambler > Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:09:43 AM US/Pacific > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: [Vision2020] Predictions For August 2003 > > > The Month of August 2003 > =A0 > Too many problems in the world now.=A0 A mathematician could not solve = =20 > them.=A0 The Book of Revelation in The New Testament explains why all =20= > these events are happening: These are the End Times, it is to be =20 > expected.=A0 Here are my predictions for the month of August 2003. > =A0 > 1) There will be a nuclear war, somewhere in the world. > 2) Millions of people, worldwide, will die -as if spontaneously- from =20= > inexplicable causes. > 3) 90% of all universities and colleges will cancel Fall semester = 2003. > 4) The East Coast of the United States will displace at least 3 =20 > million of its current population. > 5) Pullman, Washington will be totally abandoned. > 6) Moscow, Idaho will be all but abandoned. > 7) The United States will experience an acute gas shortage.=A0 Rural =20= > areas will be most severely affected by this.=A0 Many rural = communities =20 > will be abandoned. > 8) Train transportation will be the only possible long distance mode =20= > of travel in the United States. > 9) The Internet will crash, never to be fully functional again. > 10) The United States federal government will go into hiding. > 11) Crooks and wrongdoers will inexplicably confess all their =20 > law-breaking deeds.=A0 Then, they will inexplicably die. > 12) Europe will be overrun by gangs. > 13) The food supply in the Northwest will be secure, only if food is =20= > only grown in greenhouses.=A0 All other farming will not yield crops. > 14) All foreign nationals in the United States will be urged to =20 > permanently leave the United States.=A0 Violence against foreign =20 > nationals will unfortunately become a regular occurrence. > 15) Christ will spare no one, who has been slated for dying. > 16) Millions of married couples will find themselves inexplicably and =20= > permanently separated. > 17) All those who fornicate after receiving a personal sign from God =20= > not to, will perish within 7 months. > =A0 > How prediction works > =A0 > Prediction is not at all like science.=A0 Either the prediction comes = to =20 > pass, or it doesn't.=A0 There is no in-between.=A0 In science, there = is =20 > much room for error.=A0 But when predicting, there is no room for = error: =20 > All predictions must come true in order for anyone predicting to have =20= > any credibility.=A0 Either the person predicting is 100% accurate, or =20= > they are 100% incorrect.=A0 There is no middle ground when predictions = =20 > are made, because too much is at stake.=A0 Statistics are useless, =20 > because all predictions are based on the future, and only marginally =20= > on the past. > =A0 > Rapidly uncontrollable world events like the civil war in Liberia; the = =20 > inhumane conquest of the Iraqi people by the United States; the almost = =20 > random death, worldwide, that happens daily.=A0 All of our lives will =20= > soon be radically changed by the "unpredictability" of world events.=A0 = =20 > But it is not that these events are unpredictable, but rather that =20 > they are unstoppable.=A0 Any Christian knows that The End Times are = upon =20 > us.=A0 Death, then, will become an ordinary, daily occurrence for = young =20 > and old, all around the world.=A0 Without prediction, humanity has = much =20 > less of a chance to survive.=A0 Only God-given prediction can help =20 > humans organize in these very deadly and unimaginable times. > =A0 > The perfection of God's timing > =A0 > Only God knows precisely when an event should happen.=A0 For example, = if =20 > God assigns a specific time when He will communicate some specific =20 > information to human beings, then that information will not be given =20= > before or after the appropriate time.=A0 All ongoing revelation from = God =20 > is given to human beings with divine perfection, and that always means = =20 > "at the right time." > =A0 > When 1 + 1 does not equal 2 > =A0 > How is it that predictions come to pass in non-linear fashion?=A0 = That's =20 > the nature of prediction.=A0 True, predicted events happen as if in a =20= > whirlwind that has no beginning, no ending and seemingly comes out of =20= > nowhere.=A0 Predicted events can be subtle or obvious, and they always = =20 > defy logic.=A0 Only people with a decent amount of faith can = understand =20 > and appreciate the true characteristics of predicted events. > =A0 > =A0 > In Christ, > Douglas Stambler > (Moscow, Idaho) > Here are some predictions that were made over 1900 years ago that were =20= supposed to have taken place within a generation or two after they were =20= made: Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matt. 16:28 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27 See Acts 2:15-17 in which Peter invokes a prophecy by Joel to explain why a gathering of diverse peoples understood each other's language. This outpouring of God's Spirit was a sign that the end was near. But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; 1 Cor. 7:29 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Phil. 4:5 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven... Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds... 1 Thess. 4:15-16 God...Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son... Heb. 1:1-2 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb. 9:26 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Heb. 10:37 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord... stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh...behold, the judge standeth before the door. James 5:7-9 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 Christ...was manifest in these last times for you,... 1 Peter 1:19- 20 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1 John 2:18 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;... Rev. 1:1 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev. 1:3 Behold, I come quickly. Rev. 3:11 And he said unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand... He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Rev. 22:10, 20. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Matt 10:23 ************************************************************************=20= ********************* Nixon: "I am not a crook." Bush I: "Read my lips -- no new taxes." Jesus: "I am coming soon." (Rev. 3:11) Ralph Nielsen Moscow --Apple-Mail-4--413633728 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 From: Douglas Stambler < Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:09:43 AM US/Pacific To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Predictions For August 2003 The Month of August 2003 =A0 Too many problems in the world now.=A0 A mathematician could not solve them.=A0 The Book of Revelation in The New Testament explains why all these events are happening: These are the End Times, it is to be expected.=A0 Here are my predictions for the month of August 2003. =A0 1) There will be a nuclear war, somewhere in the world. 2) Millions of people, worldwide, will die -as if spontaneously- from inexplicable causes. 3) 90% of all universities and colleges will cancel Fall semester 2003. 4) The East Coast of the United States will displace at least 3 million of its current population. 5) Pullman, Washington will be totally abandoned. 6) Moscow, Idaho will be all but abandoned. 7) The United States will experience an acute gas shortage.=A0 Rural areas will be most severely affected by this.=A0 Many rural communities will be abandoned. 8) Train transportation will be the only possible long distance mode of travel in the United States. 9) The Internet will crash, never to be fully functional again. 10) The United States federal government will go into hiding. 11) Crooks and wrongdoers will inexplicably confess all their law-breaking deeds.=A0 Then, they will inexplicably die. 12) Europe will be overrun by gangs. 13) The food supply in the Northwest will be secure, only if food is only grown in greenhouses.=A0 All other farming will not yield crops. 14) All foreign nationals in the United States will be urged to permanently leave the United States.=A0 Violence against foreign nationals will unfortunately become a regular occurrence. 15) Christ will spare no one, who has been slated for dying. 16) Millions of married couples will find themselves inexplicably and permanently separated. 17) All those who fornicate after receiving a personal sign from God not to, will perish within 7 months. =A0 How prediction works =A0 Prediction is not at all like science.=A0 Either the prediction comes to pass, or it doesn't.=A0 There is no in-between.=A0 In science, there is much room for error.=A0 But when predicting, there is no room for error: All predictions must come true in order for anyone predicting to have any credibility.=A0 Either the person predicting is 100% accurate, or they are 100% incorrect.=A0 There is no middle ground when predictions are made, because too much is at stake.=A0 Statistics are useless, because all predictions are based on the future, and only marginally on the past. =A0 Rapidly uncontrollable world events like the civil war in Liberia; the inhumane conquest of the Iraqi people by the United States; the almost random death, worldwide, that happens daily.=A0 All of our lives will soon be radically changed by the "unpredictability" of world events.=A0 But it is not that these events are unpredictable, but rather that they are unstoppable.=A0 Any Christian knows that The End Times are upon us.=A0 Death, then, will become an ordinary, daily occurrence for young and old, all around the world.=A0 Without prediction, humanity has much less of a chance to survive.=A0 Only God-given prediction can help humans organize in these very deadly and unimaginable times. =A0 The perfection of God's timing =A0 Only God knows precisely when an event should happen.=A0 For example, if God assigns a specific time when He will communicate some specific information to human beings, then that information will not be given before or after the appropriate time.=A0 All ongoing revelation from God is given to human beings with divine perfection, and that always means "at the right time." =A0 When 1 + 1 does not equal 2 =A0 How is it that predictions come to pass in non-linear fashion?=A0 That's the nature of prediction.=A0 True, predicted events happen as if in a whirlwind that has no beginning, no ending and seemingly comes out of nowhere.=A0 Predicted events can be subtle or obvious, and they always defy logic.=A0 Only people with a decent amount of faith can understand and appreciate the true characteristics of predicted events. =A0 =A0 In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Moscow, Idaho) Here are some predictions that were made over 1900 years ago that were supposed to have taken place within a generation or two after they were made: Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matt. 16:28 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27 See Acts 2:15-17 in which Peter invokes a prophecy by Joel to explain why a gathering of diverse peoples understood each other's language. This outpouring of God's Spirit was a sign that the end was near. But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; 1 Cor. 7:29 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Phil. 4:5 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede]=20 them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven... Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds... 1 Thess. 4:15-16 God...Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son... Heb. 1:1-2 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb. 9:26 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Heb. 10:37 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord... stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh...behold, the judge standeth before the door. James 5:7-9 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 Christ...was manifest in these last times for you,... 1 Peter 1:19- 20 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1 John 2:18 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;... Rev. 1:1 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev. 1:3 Behold, I come quickly. Rev. 3:11 And he said unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand... He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Rev. 22:10, 20. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Matt 10:23 = **************************************************************************= ******************* Nixon: "I am not a crook." Bush I: "Read my lips -- no new taxes." Jesus: "I am coming soon." (Rev. 3:11) Ralph Nielsen Moscow --Apple-Mail-4--413633728-- From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 29 18:12:53 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 10:12:53 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Predictions for August 2003 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200307291712.h6THCsQU019559@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C355B9.F9590F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ralph, You're a hoot. Stambler is a false prophet and you falsely interpret prophecies. Are you sure that he's not your son? Even a child can understand the difference between a "coming in judgment" and a personal coming. There was a coming in judgment in 70 AD. All those prophecies you cited were fully fulfilled in the first century, just as Christ said they would be. But then again, your mind has already chosen to embrace what your heart believes. Enjoy your spiritual mastu... oh, never mind. Dale _____ From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Nielsen Sent: Tuesday, 29 July, 2003 09:59 To: vision2020@moscow.com Cc: Douglas Stambler Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Predictions for August 2003 From: Douglas Stambler Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:09:43 AM US/Pacific To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Predictions For August 2003 The Month of August 2003 Too many problems in the world now. A mathematician could not solve them. The Book of Revelation in The New Testament explains why all these events are happening: These are the End Times, it is to be expected. Here are my predictions for the month of August 2003. 1) There will be a nuclear war, somewhere in the world. 2) Millions of people, worldwide, will die -as if spontaneously- from inexplicable causes. 3) 90% of all universities and colleges will cancel Fall semester 2003. 4) The East Coast of the United States will displace at least 3 million of its current population. 5) Pullman, Washington will be totally abandoned. 6) Moscow, Idaho will be all but abandoned. 7) The United States will experience an acute gas shortage. Rural areas will be most severely affected by this. Many rural communities will be abandoned. 8) Train transportation will be the only possible long distance mode of travel in the United States. 9) The Internet will crash, never to be fully functional again. 10) The United States federal government will go into hiding. 11) Crooks and wrongdoers will inexplicably confess all their law-breaking deeds. Then, they will inexplicably die. 12) Europe will be overrun by gangs. 13) The food supply in the Northwest will be secure, only if food is only grown in greenhouses. All other farming will not yield crops. 14) All foreign nationals in the United States will be urged to permanently leave the United States. Violence against foreign nationals will unfortunately become a regular occurrence. 15) Christ will spare no one, who has been slated for dying. 16) Millions of married couples will find themselves inexplicably and permanently separated. 17) All those who fornicate after receiving a personal sign from God not to, will perish within 7 months. How prediction works Prediction is not at all like science. Either the prediction comes to pass, or it doesn't. There is no in-between. In science, there is much room for error. But when predicting, there is no room for error: All predictions must come true in order for anyone predicting to have any credibility. Either the person predicting is 100% accurate, or they are 100% incorrect. There is no middle ground when predictions are made, because too much is at stake. Statistics are useless, because all predictions are based on the future, and only marginally on the past. Rapidly uncontrollable world events like the civil war in Liberia; the inhumane conquest of the Iraqi people by the United States; the almost random death, worldwide, that happens daily. All of our lives will soon be radically changed by the "unpredictability" of world events. But it is not that these events are unpredictable, but rather that they are unstoppable. Any Christian knows that The End Times are upon us. Death, then, will become an ordinary, daily occurrence for young and old, all around the world. Without prediction, humanity has much less of a chance to survive. Only God-given prediction can help humans organize in these very deadly and unimaginable times. The perfection of God's timing Only God knows precisely when an event should happen. For example, if God assigns a specific time when He will communicate some specific information to human beings, then that information will not be given before or after the appropriate time. All ongoing revelation from God is given to human beings with divine perfection, and that always means "at the right time." When 1 + 1 does not equal 2 How is it that predictions come to pass in non-linear fashion? That's the nature of prediction. True, predicted events happen as if in a whirlwind that has no beginning, no ending and seemingly comes out of nowhere. Predicted events can be subtle or obvious, and they always defy logic. Only people with a decent amount of faith can understand and appreciate the true characteristics of predicted events. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Moscow, Idaho) Here are some predictions that were made over 1900 years ago that were supposed to have taken place within a generation or two after they were made: Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matt. 16:28 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27 See Acts 2:15-17 in which Peter invokes a prophecy by Joel to explain why a gathering of diverse peoples understood each other's language. This outpouring of God's Spirit was a sign that the end was near. But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; 1 Cor. 7:29 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Phil. 4:5 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven... Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds... 1 Thess. 4:15-16 God...Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son... Heb. 1:1-2 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb. 9:26 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Heb. 10:37 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord... stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh...behold, the judge standeth before the door. James 5:7-9 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 Christ...was manifest in these last times for you,... 1 Peter 1:19- 20 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1 John 2:18 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;... Rev. 1:1 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev. 1:3 Behold, I come quickly. Rev. 3:11 And he said unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand... He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Rev. 22:10, 20. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Matt 10:23 **************************************************************************** ***************** Nixon: "I am not a crook." Bush I: "Read my lips -- no new taxes." Jesus: "I am coming soon." (Rev. 3:11) Ralph Nielsen Moscow ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C355B9.F9590F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ralph,
 
You're a hoot. Stambler is a false prophet and = you falsely=20 interpret prophecies. Are you sure that he's not your son? =
 
Even a child can understand the difference = between a=20 "coming in judgment" and a personal coming. There was a coming in = judgment=20 in 70 AD. All those prophecies you cited were fully fulfilled in the = first=20 century, just as Christ said they would be.
 
But then again, your mind has already chosen to = embrace=20 what your heart believes. Enjoy your spiritual mastu...  oh, = never=20 mind.
 
Dale
 

From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Ralph=20 Nielsen
Sent: Tuesday, 29 July, 2003 09:59
To:=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Cc: Douglas = Stambler
Subject:=20 [Vision2020] Re: Predictions for August 2003

From: Douglas Stambler=20 <ccm_moscow@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 = 8:09:43 AM=20 US/Pacific
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject:=20 [Vision2020] Predictions For August 2003


The Month = of=20 August 2003
 
Too many problems in the world = now.  A=20 mathematician could not solve them.  The Book of Revelation in = The New=20 Testament explains why all these events are happening: These are the = End=20 Times, it is to be expected.  Here are my predictions for the = month of=20 August 2003.
 
1) There will be a nuclear war, somewhere = in the=20 world.
2) Millions of people, worldwide, will die -as if = spontaneously-=20 from inexplicable causes.
3) 90% of all universities and colleges = will=20 cancel Fall semester 2003.
4) The East Coast of the United States = will=20 displace at least 3 million of its current population.
5) = Pullman,=20 Washington will be totally abandoned.
6) Moscow, Idaho will be = all but=20 abandoned.
7) The United States will experience an acute gas=20 shortage.  Rural areas will be most severely affected by = this. =20 Many rural communities will be abandoned.
8) Train transportation = will be=20 the only possible long distance mode of travel in the United = States.
9)=20 The Internet will crash, never to be fully functional again.
10) = The=20 United States federal government will go into hiding.
11) Crooks = and=20 wrongdoers will inexplicably confess all their law-breaking = deeds. =20 Then, they will inexplicably die.
12) Europe will be overrun by=20 gangs.
13) The food supply in the Northwest will be secure, only = if food=20 is only grown in greenhouses.  All other farming will not yield = crops.
14) All foreign nationals in the United States will be = urged to=20 permanently leave the United States.  Violence against foreign=20 nationals will unfortunately become a regular occurrence.
15) = Christ will=20 spare no one, who has been slated for dying.
16) Millions of = married=20 couples will find themselves inexplicably and permanently = separated.
17)=20 All those who fornicate after receiving a personal sign from God not = to,=20 will perish within 7 months.
 
How prediction=20 works
 
Prediction is not at all like science.  = Either=20 the prediction comes to pass, or it doesn't.  There is no=20 in-between.  In science, there is much room for error.  = But when=20 predicting, there is no room for error: All predictions must come = true in=20 order for anyone predicting to have any credibility.  Either = the person=20 predicting is 100% accurate, or they are 100% incorrect.  There = is no=20 middle ground when predictions are made, because too much is at = stake. =20 Statistics are useless, because all predictions are based on the = future, and=20 only marginally on the past.
 
Rapidly uncontrollable = world=20 events like the civil war in Liberia; the inhumane conquest of the = Iraqi=20 people by the United States; the almost random death, worldwide, = that=20 happens daily.  All of our lives will soon be radically changed = by the=20 "unpredictability" of world events.  But it is not that these = events=20 are unpredictable, but rather that they are unstoppable.  Any = Christian=20 knows that The End Times are upon us.  Death, then, will become = an=20 ordinary, daily occurrence for young and old, all around the = world. =20 Without prediction, humanity has much less of a chance to = survive. =20 Only God-given prediction can help humans organize in these very = deadly and=20 unimaginable times.
 
The perfection of God's=20 timing
 
Only God knows precisely when an event = should=20 happen.  For example, if God assigns a specific time when He = will=20 communicate some specific information to human beings, then that = information=20 will not be given before or after the appropriate time.  All = ongoing=20 revelation from God is given to human beings with divine perfection, = and=20 that always means "at the right time."
 
When 1 + 1 = does not=20 equal 2
 
How is it that predictions come to pass in=20 non-linear fashion?  That's the nature of prediction.  = True,=20 predicted events happen as if in a whirlwind that has no beginning, = no=20 ending and seemingly comes out of nowhere.  Predicted events = can be=20 subtle or obvious, and they always defy logic.  Only = people with=20 a decent amount of faith can understand and appreciate the true=20 characteristics of predicted events.
 
 
In=20 Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Moscow, = Idaho)


Here=20 are some predictions that were made over 1900 years ago that were = supposed to=20 have taken place within a generation or two after they were=20 made:

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which = shall
not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in=20 his
kingdom. Matt. 16:28

But I tell you of a truth, there be = some=20 standing here, which shall
not taste of death, till they see the = kingdom of=20 God. Luke 9:27

See Acts 2:15-17 in which Peter invokes a = prophecy by=20 Joel to
explain why a gathering of diverse peoples understood each=20 other's
language. This outpouring of God's Spirit was a sign that = the=20 end
was near.

But this I say, brethren, the time is short: = it=20 remaineth, that both
they that have wives be as though they had = none; 1=20 Cor. 7:29

Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord = is=20 at
hand. Phil. 4:5

For this we say unto you by the word of = the Lord,=20 that we which are
alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord = shall not=20 prevent [precede]
them which are asleep. For the Lord himself = shall=20 descend from
heaven... Then we which are alive and remain shall be = caught=20 up
together with them in the clouds...
1 Thess.=20 4:15-16

God...Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his = Son...=20 Heb.
1:1-2

For then must he often have suffered since the = foundation=20 of the
world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared = to
put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb. 9:26

For = yet a=20 little while, and he that shall come will come, and
will not tarry. = Heb.=20 10:37

Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the=20 Lord...
stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord=20 draweth
nigh...behold, the judge standeth before the door. James=20 5:7-9

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore = sober,=20 and
watch unto prayer. 1 Peter 4:7

Christ...was manifest in = these=20 last times for you,... 1 Peter 1:19-
20

Little children, it = is the=20 last time: and as ye have heard that
antichrist shall come, even = now are=20 there many antichrists; whereby
we know that it is the last time. 1 = John=20 2:18

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,=20 to
shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to=20 pass;...
Rev. 1:1

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that = hear the=20 words of this
prophecy, and keep those things which are written = therein:=20 for the
time is at hand.
Rev. 1:3

Behold, I come quickly. = Rev.=20 3:11

And he said unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy = of=20 this
book: for the time is at hand... He which testifieth these=20 things
saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord=20 Jesus.
Rev. 22:10, 20.

But when they persecute you in this = city,=20 flee ye into another: for
verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have = gone=20 over the cities of
Israel, till the Son of man be come. Matt=20 = 10:23

************************************************************= *********************************
Nixon:=20 "I am not a crook."
Bush I: "Read my lips -- no new = taxes."
Jesus: "I am=20 coming soon." (Rev. 3:11)

Ralph=20 Nielsen
Moscow

------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C355B9.F9590F60-- From sslund@moscow.com Tue Jul 29 18:55:47 2003 From: sslund@moscow.com (Saundra Lund) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 10:55:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Water question In-Reply-To: <001401c35567$c4f726f0$7bf2f5c7@Janestas> Message-ID: <007401c355fa$a4160f80$6501a8c0@pooh> Hi Ms. Sullivan, I can't answer your questions, but I'm wondering about water, too . . . Are businesses subject to the same outdoor irrigation regulations as residential customers? The reason I ask is that over the past couple of days, I've been out & about in the afternoons (*well* before 6 PM) and have seen a couple of businesses, which shall remain nameless, watering to beat the band, with automatic mist-type (most prone to evaporative loss) sprinkler systems during the hottest part of the day. I know the mandatory restrictions are new, but the voluntary hours of restricting outdoor irrigation to the hours between 6 PM and 9 AM have been in effect for over a month now. So, are businesses exempt from the outdoor irrigation restrictions? Inquiring minds want to know . . . Saundra Lund Moscow, Idaho The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. Edmund Burke -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of JSullivan Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 5:24 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Water question Please excuse me if this question has been asked before. Today, as I left Wal-Mart at around 3:30 pm, I noticed over a dozen sprinklers running at the U of I on the hill above the Water treatment plant. Is this reused water from the treatment plant, or fresh water fom the aquifer? Why are they watering during the day? Will they get cited like the rest of us? I just heard on the news (channel 2) that this is the hottest, driest summer on record for the last 40 years. Might this be the cause of more water usage, despite the new regulations? Janesta Sullivan From jsullivan@moscow.com Tue Jul 29 21:04:02 2003 From: jsullivan@moscow.com (JSullivan) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:04:02 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Water Message-ID: <000801c3560c$8ecbe7f0$41f2f5c7@Janestas> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C355D1.E1ECBC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To each of you who answered my water question. Thank you very much! Janesta Sullivan ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C355D1.E1ECBC60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To each of you who answered my water=20 question.
 
Thank you very much!
 
Janesta = Sullivan
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C355D1.E1ECBC60-- From jsullivan@moscow.com Tue Jul 29 21:12:12 2003 From: jsullivan@moscow.com (JSullivan) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:12:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Housing rental question Message-ID: <001101c3560d$b30d9040$41f2f5c7@Janestas> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C355D3.062CDE10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good afternoon! A hot one, isn't it? *fanning myself* I have a question, that I thought perhaps someone might be able to = answer for me. I heard there are some rental lists around town, where one can list a = house, apartment, or needing a roommate... That kind of thing. Would = someone be so kind as to send one my way? I would certainly appreciate = it. Thank you, Janesta Sullivan For those needing housing-- 3 br, 1.5 bath, LR, DR, Den, w/d, stove, = fridge, fireplace w/insert, deck with view of Moscow Mountain, patio, = with enclosed back yard. Am unsure about pets at the moment, or how much = I will be asking. It will be avaliable on the 1st of August. Month to = month lease, with deposit. W/S/G paid. Located in the Lena Whitmore School District, close to Eastside Market = Place.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C355D3.062CDE10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good afternoon!
 
A hot one, isn't it? *fanning = myself*
 
I have a question, that I thought = perhaps someone=20 might be able to answer for me.
 
I heard there are some rental lists = around town,=20 where one can list a house, apartment, or needing a roommate... = That kind=20 of thing. Would someone be so kind as to send one my way? I would = certainly=20 appreciate it.
 
Thank you,
Janesta Sullivan
 
For those needing housing-- 3 br, 1.5 = bath, LR,=20 DR, Den, w/d, stove, fridge, fireplace w/insert, deck with = view of=20 Moscow Mountain, patio, with enclosed back yard. Am unsure about pets at = the=20 moment, or how much I will be asking. It will be avaliable on the 1st of = August.=20 Month to month lease, with deposit. W/S/G paid.
 
Located in the Lena Whitmore School = District, close=20 to Eastside Market Place.
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C355D3.062CDE10-- From tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu Tue Jul 29 21:23:52 2003 From: tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (TEX) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Housing rental question In-Reply-To: <001101c3560d$b30d9040$41f2f5c7@Janestas> References: <001101c3560d$b30d9040$41f2f5c7@Janestas> Message-ID: http://www.asui.uidaho.edu/housing/ Tex tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu On Tue, 29 Jul 2003, JSullivan wrote: > Good afternoon! > > A hot one, isn't it? *fanning myself* > > I have a question, that I thought perhaps someone might be able to answer for me. > > I heard there are some rental lists around town, where one can list a house, apartment, or needing a roommate... That kind of thing. Would someone be so kind as to send one my way? I would certainly appreciate it. > > Thank you, > Janesta Sullivan > > For those needing housing-- 3 br, 1.5 bath, LR, DR, Den, w/d, stove, fridge, fireplace w/insert, deck with view of Moscow Mountain, patio, with enclosed back yard. Am unsure about pets at the moment, or how much I will be asking. It will be avaliable on the 1st of August. Month to month lease, with deposit. W/S/G paid. > > Located in the Lena Whitmore School District, close to Eastside Market Place. > From rforce@moscow.com Tue Jul 29 21:36:45 2003 From: rforce@moscow.com (Ron Force) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:36:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Predictions For August 2003 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No, the UI will remain open, attracting tens of thousands of transfer students. With that many additional students to exploit, we'll make millions, MILLIONS! I'll cash my UI stock options and retire to a gated community some place that hasn't been devastated by the apocalypse. ******************************************** Ron Force rforce@moscow.com Moscow Idaho USA ******************************************** > I'm a little concerned about this. I live in Moscow, which is > going to be > abandoned next month. I work at the University of Idaho, which, > if 90% of > all universities are going to cancel fall semester, may well be > one of those > institutions that do so. > From DonaldH675@aol.com Tue Jul 29 21:37:15 2003 From: DonaldH675@aol.com (DonaldH675@aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:37:15 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Fiscal Failures at Charter Schools Message-ID: <4e.1fcddf86.2c5834fb@aol.com> --part1_4e.1fcddf86.2c5834fb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Visionaries, One aspect of public education rarely discussed on this list is the charter school. Charter schools are public schools paid for with public monies that must meet state standards regarding achievement but which have a great deal of latitude in how education is delivered. Locally, Moscow School District "holds" the charters of Renaissance Public Charter School and Moscow Charter School, but it has no statutory authority to address internal governance. MSD conducts an annual review of the local charter schools which includes audited financial records and educational testing scores, among other items. Recently, at an MSD Board meeting preliminary approval for the year was granted to Moscow Charter School and was withheld from Renaissance Charter School. Charter school board members are not directly elected by the parents of charter school parents or by the tax-payers in the charter school's district. Rather, they are generally self-selected by school founders and evolve over to time to include members nominated and voted for by the sitting board members. A system of self-selection can make for a system rife with abuse. Our local legislators have made gallant attempts to sponsor legislation that will correct this glitch, but so far, the state legislature has not been able to enact a statute that will remedy the situation. Renaissance Public Charter School, which my grandchildren attended until recently, is facing a huge deficit. (Approximately $18,000 was overspent during last year's budget, they have a $9,000 holdback from the state, and they misappropriated $5,000 from a grant that must be paid back.) This deficit is the result of very poor financial management, state educational holdbacks, lack of Board oversight, and a declining student population. It is not due, which is the excuse offered by director Susan Seaman, to lower than expected daily attendance, or - and this is a deliberate misrepresentation she favors - a planned downsizing because the school buildings are small. RPCS is blessed with an extraordinary faculty and cursed by fiscally irresponsible administrators, and a historically disinterested board. (Not all board members were disinterested, however they learned very quickly that they did not hold a voting majority and were simply outvoted when disagreements arose. Three of these board members, who represented the Lets-Not-Do-Business-As-Usual party have recently resigned.) On the other hand, a long serving board member, Ray Richmond has proudly summed up his duties by saying "our job is to rubber stamp the director." He plans to continue on the Board until 2005 - at which time he will have served 6 + years. Unfortunately, while the truly wonderful teachers are working their bums off to serve their students and giving Idaho tax payers the best bang for their buck imaginable (they are paid well under the local teacher pay rate) the administrator, many Board members, and the financial / business manager are diligently at work wasting our tax dollars. As a taxpayer and sensible adult, it did not make me happy to learn that during the Christmas Break of 2001 the school director and her husband were treated by the Board to an overnight stay at the Coeur d' Alene Resort (the Fantasy in Lights Package for $295.00) as a reward for her work after only four months on the job. I have copies of the minutes in which Susan Seaman, the director, thanks the board for "a memorable evening." I have a copy of the flyer detailing the holiday package chosen, a copy of the payment voucher, and a written admission on school letterhead from the business manager that the trip was paid with general education funds. (Without the Freedom of Information Act, neither you nor I would know anything about this grotesque abuse of state funds.) The school's treasurer and the school's business manager arranged this little trip; the school's director happily accepted it. Is this beginning to sound like the Mayor of Boise? When this information was made public (to the parents in the school), the parties involved dashed off to the school attorney to construct a defense for themselves. Apparently they believe that paying back the money and sending a contrite letter to the prosecutor will absolve them of liability. I hope this is not the case, and I also hope that our tax dollars will not be used to pay for their defense. Perhaps you will be equally cheered to learn that the business manager hired, supervised and paid her husband for off again on again handyman work around the school. With one minuted exception, this work was done without the direct knowledge or oversight of the Board. (By the way, the business manager is also an ex-officio board member. Can you say ethics problem? I think you can.) Most of the Board members who presented the school director with the "appreciation" trip vigorously defend the business manager's hiring of her own husband as well as his generous rate of pay, despite their ignorance of his employment. I understand that, under pressure, the Board has agreed not to hire him in the future. Still, if the terms are as liberal for you as they were for him, here's what you can expect to be paid for the following odd jobs: 8-19-02: Labor $175, Material $0; Comments: Stow unwanted books & Mat'ls 9-18-02: Labor $200, Material $0; Comments: Expecting visitors from Boise Spruce up doors, windows, trash, grounds 9-24-02: Labor $75; Materials $5; Comments: Put up tv 9-25: Labor $50; Materials $5; Comments: Repr doorlock H/S Our ex-handyman is not the only employee who benefits from the board's selective generosity. The director, Susan Seaman's salary this year will is in excess of $68,000 (plus benefits and she will also have a lovely travel budget for her endless jaunts). FYI, there are currently less than 70 students enrolled in the school. The business manager, Carol Kampenhout, pays herself in excess of $19.00/hr plus overtime (roughly 40,000 - 45,000/year.) She is unable/unwilling to tell us how many hours she plans to work. MSD officials have been courteous and responsive to the concerns of Renaissance Public Charter School parents. They have lived up to the letter and, in my opinion, the spirit of the current Charter School law. RPCS has been routinely audited and has passed the audits. The money in and money out part balances. But an audit that reveals the kind of information that I am sharing is not required, and certainly Moscow School District had no way of knowing about it. Despite these horrific examples, Moscow School District has done a good job in monitoring financial oversight at the school, but their hands are tied. The director and Board members of RPCS have repeatedly warned parents and supporters not to report these problems to the district - and until this summer have generally stifled dissent. (Okay guys, imagine trying to shut me up by threats - in your dreams.) By statue, the only enforcement mechanism the district has is to remove the charter, thus closing the school. If management and Board membership issues could be addressed, we could avoid throwing the baby out with the bath water. Many concerned parents and supporters of Renaissance have spent the summer asking the Board to address our concerns. We won't be receiving an appreciation gift for our hard work. Instead, we are characterized by the director, Susan Seaman, as "well poisoners" and "troublemakers". Some board members prefer to use obscenities when referring to us, or, dismiss us as liars. ) Seasoned readers of Vision 20/20 can imagine how deeply hurt I feel by these unkind words : ) Moreover, the RPCS Board is right in their assertion that we can bring these problems into the light but we can do nothing about them. We have no power to force board responsiveness, and hence no power to effect changes. Therefore, I am asking that readers of Vision 20/20 to support legislation that will increase accountability for Board members of charter schools by having direct elections from their constituency. I also ask that those readers who are interested in fiscal responsibility and accountability from our public schools join with the concerned parents and supporters of Renaissance School and demand the immediate resignation of Susan Seaman, the school director; Carol Kampenhout, the Business Manager, Ray Richmond, Board Member and Deborah Lind, Acting Board President. Please feel free to email me privately with any questions or documentation of my allegations. Best, Rose Huskey --part1_4e.1fcddf86.2c5834fb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Visionaries,

One aspect of public education rarely discussed on this list is the charter=20= school.  Charter schools are public schools paid for with public monies= that must meet state standards regarding achievement but which have a great= deal of latitude in how education is delivered. Locally, Moscow School Dist= rict "holds" the charters of Renaissance Public Charter School and Moscow Ch= arter School, but it has no statutory authority to address internal governan= ce.  MSD conducts an annual review of the local charter schools which i= ncludes audited financial records and educational testing scores, among othe= r items.  Recently, at an MSD Board meeting preliminary approval for th= e year was granted to Moscow Charter School and was withheld from Renaissanc= e Charter School.

Charter school board members are not directly elected by the parents of char= ter school parents or by the tax-payers in the charter school's district. Ra= ther, they are generally self-selected by school founders and evolve over to= time to include members nominated and voted for by the sitting board member= s.   A system of self-selection can make for a system rife with ab= use.  Our local legislators have made gallant attempts to sponsor legis= lation that will correct this glitch, but so far, the state legislature has=20= not been able to enact a statute that will remedy the situation.

Renaissance Public Charter School, which my grandchildren attended until rec= ently, is facing a huge deficit.  (Approximately $18,000 was overspent=20= during last year's budget, they have a $9,000 holdback from the state, and t= hey misappropriated $5,000 from a grant that must be paid back.)  This=20= deficit is the result of very poor financial management, state educational h= oldbacks, lack of Board oversight, and a declining student population. It is= not due, which is the excuse offered by director Susan Seaman, to lower tha= n expected daily attendance, or - and this is a deliberate misrepresentation= she favors - a planned downsizing because the school buildings are small. <= BR>
RPCS is blessed with an extraordinary faculty and cursed by fiscally irrespo= nsible administrators, and a historically disinterested board.  (Not al= l board members were disinterested, however they learned very quickly that t= hey did not hold a voting majority and were simply outvoted when disagreemen= ts arose. Three of these board members, who represented the Lets-Not-Do-Busi= ness-As-Usual party have recently resigned.) On the other hand, a long servi= ng board member, Ray Richmond has proudly summed up his duties by saying "ou= r job is to rubber stamp the director."  He plans to continue on the Bo= ard until 2005 - at which time he will have served 6 + years.

Unfortunately, while the truly wonderful teachers are working their bums off= to serve their students and giving Idaho tax payers the best bang for their= buck imaginable (they are paid well under the local teacher pay rate) the a= dministrator, many Board members, and the financial / business manager are d= iligently at work wasting our tax dollars.

As a taxpayer and sensible adult, it did not make me happy to learn that dur= ing the Christmas Break of 2001 the school director and her husband were tre= ated by the Board to an overnight stay at the Coeur d' Alene Resort (the Fan= tasy in Lights Package for $295.00) as a reward for her work after only four= months on the job.  I have copies of the minutes in which Susan Seaman= , the director, thanks the board for "a memorable evening."  I have a c= opy of the flyer detailing the holiday package chosen, a copy of the payment= voucher, and a written admission on school letterhead from the business man= ager that the trip was paid with general education funds.  (Without the= Freedom of Information Act, neither you nor I would know anything about thi= s grotesque abuse of state funds.)

The school's treasurer and the school's business manager arranged this littl= e trip; the school's director happily accepted it.  Is this beginning t= o sound like the Mayor of Boise?  When this information was made public= (to the parents in the school), the parties involved dashed off to the scho= ol attorney to construct a defense for themselves.  Apparently they bel= ieve that paying back the money and sending a contrite letter to the prosecu= tor will absolve them of liability.  I hope this is not the case, and I= also hope that our tax dollars will not be used to pay for their defense.&n= bsp;

Perhaps you will be equally cheered to learn that the business manager hired= , supervised and paid her husband for off again on again handyman work aroun= d the school. With one minuted exception, this work was done without the dir= ect knowledge or oversight of the Board.  (By the way, the business man= ager is also an ex-officio board member.  Can you say ethics problem?&n= bsp; I think you can.)  Most of the Board members who presented the sch= ool director with the "appreciation" trip vigorously defend the business man= ager's hiring of her own husband as well as his generous rate of pay, despit= e their ignorance of his employment.   I understand that, under pr= essure, the Board has agreed not to hire him in the future.  Still, if=20= the terms are as liberal for you as they were for him, here's what you can e= xpect to be paid for the following odd jobs:

8-19-02:  Labor $175, Material $0; Comments:  Stow unwanted books=20= & Mat'ls
9-18-02:  Labor $200, Material $0; Comments: Expecting visitors from Bo= ise Spruce up doors, windows, trash, grounds
9-24-02: Labor $75; Materials $5; Comments: Put up tv
9-25: Labor $50; Materials $5; Comments: Repr doorlock H/S

Our ex-handyman is not the only employee who benefits from the board's selec= tive generosity. The director, Susan Seaman's salary this year will is in ex= cess of $68,000 (plus benefits and she will also have a lovely travel budget= for her endless jaunts).  FYI, there are currently less than 70 studen= ts enrolled in the school.  The business manager, Carol Kampenhout, pay= s herself in excess of $19.00/hr plus overtime (roughly 40,000 - 45,000/year= .)  She is unable/unwilling to tell us how many hours she plans to work= .

MSD officials have been courteous and responsive to the concerns of Renaissa= nce Public Charter School parents.  They have lived up to the letter an= d, in my opinion, the spirit of the current Charter School law.  RPCS h= as been routinely audited and has passed the audits. The money in and money=20= out part balances.  But an audit that reveals the kind of information t= hat I am sharing is not required, and certainly Moscow School District had n= o way of knowing about it.  Despite these horrific examples, Moscow Sch= ool District has done a good job in monitoring financial oversight at the sc= hool, but their hands are tied.  The director and Board members of RPCS= have repeatedly warned parents and supporters not to report these problems=20= to the district - and until this summer have generally stifled dissent. = ; (Okay guys, imagine trying to shut me up by threats - in your dreams.)
By statue, the only enforcement mechanism the district has is to remove the= charter, thus closing the school.  If management and Board membership=20= issues could be addressed, we could avoid throwing the baby out with the bat= h water.

Many concerned parents and supporters of Renaissance have spent the summer a= sking the Board to address our concerns. We won't be receiving an appreciati= on gift for our hard work. Instead, we are characterized by the director, Su= san Seaman, as "well poisoners" and "troublemakers".  Some board member= s prefer to use obscenities when referring to us, or, dismiss us as liars. )= Seasoned readers of Vision 20/20 can imagine how deeply hurt I feel by thes= e unkind words : )  Moreover, the RPCS Board is right in their assertio= n that we can bring these problems into the light but we can do nothing abou= t them. We have no power to force board responsiveness, and hence no power t= o effect changes. 

Therefore, I am asking that readers of Vision 20/20 to support legislation t= hat will increase accountability for Board members of charter schools by hav= ing direct elections from their constituency.  I also ask that those re= aders who are interested in fiscal responsibility and accountability from ou= r public schools join with the concerned parents and supporters of Renaissan= ce School and demand the immediate resignation of Susan Seaman, the school d= irector; Carol Kampenhout, the Business Manager, Ray Richmond, Board Member=20= and Deborah Lind, Acting Board President.  Please feel free to email me= privately with any questions or documentation of my allegations.
Best,
Rose Huskey

 --part1_4e.1fcddf86.2c5834fb_boundary-- From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Tue Jul 29 22:04:21 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:04:21 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Predictions For August 2003 Message-ID: Regarding prediction number 11 on the list for August: Crooks and wrongdoers will inexplicably confess all their law-breaking deeds. Then, they will enexplicably die. I know I'm jumping the gun, it's still July, but I confess that in 1961 or so, I stole a rubber knife from Fonk's 5 and 10 cent store in Moscow. I'm not too keen on the second part of this prediction, though. Carl Westberg Jr. >From: "Ron Force" >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Predictions For August 2003 >Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:36:45 -0700 > >No, the UI will remain open, attracting tens of thousands of transfer >students. With that many additional students to exploit, we'll make >millions, MILLIONS! I'll cash my UI stock options and retire to a gated >community some place that hasn't been devastated by the apocalypse. > >******************************************** >Ron Force rforce@moscow.com >Moscow Idaho USA >******************************************** > > > I'm a little concerned about this. I live in Moscow, which is > > going to be > > abandoned next month. I work at the University of Idaho, which, > > if 90% of > > all universities are going to cancel fall semester, may well be > > one of those > > institutions that do so. > > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 29 22:14:57 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:14:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fiscal Failures at Charter Schools In-Reply-To: <4e.1fcddf86.2c5834fb@aol.com> Message-ID: <200307292115.h6TLF1QU048632@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C355DB.D08F8010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently, the Thomas B. Fordham Institute did a review of charter school overseers. Check out: http://www.edexcellence.net/tbfinstitute/authorizers.html Note #1: Idaho Charter schools were not part of the study because they were deemed to have insufficient legal or fiscal autonomy so that they it was questionable as to whether they should be called charter schools at all. The law allowing charter schools in Idaho was so loaded with strings that there is some question as to their ability to operate independently. Note #2: the Moscow Education Association, at one of their recent meetings, discussed ways of shutting down the local charter schools to force students back into the public schools to increase state aid. Rose, I wish you the best in trying to resolve these issues. It could be a watershed action in Moscow. Best, Dale _____ From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of DonaldH675@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, 29 July, 2003 13:37 To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Fiscal Failures at Charter Schools Dear Visionaries, One aspect of public education rarely discussed on this list is the charter school. Charter schools are public schools paid for with public monies that must meet state standards regarding achievement but which have a great deal of latitude in how education is delivered. Locally, Moscow School District "holds" the charters of Renaissance Public Charter School and Moscow Charter School, but it has no statutory authority to address internal governance. MSD conducts an annual review of the local charter schools which includes audited financial records and educational testing scores, among other items. Recently, at an MSD Board meeting preliminary approval for the year was granted to Moscow Charter School and was withheld from Renaissance Charter School. Charter school board members are not directly elected by the parents of charter school parents or by the tax-payers in the charter school's district. Rather, they are generally self-selected by school founders and evolve over to time to include members nominated and voted for by the sitting board members. A system of self-selection can make for a system rife with abuse. Our local legislators have made gallant attempts to sponsor legislation that will correct this glitch, but so far, the state legislature has not been able to enact a statute that will remedy the situation. Renaissance Public Charter School, which my grandchildren attended until recently, is facing a huge deficit. (Approximately $18,000 was overspent during last year's budget, they have a $9,000 holdback from the state, and they misappropriated $5,000 from a grant that must be paid back.) This deficit is the result of very poor financial management, state educational holdbacks, lack of Board oversight, and a declining student population. It is not due, which is the excuse offered by director Susan Seaman, to lower than expected daily attendance, or - and this is a deliberate misrepresentation she favors - a planned downsizing because the school buildings are small. RPCS is blessed with an extraordinary faculty and cursed by fiscally irresponsible administrators, and a historically disinterested board. (Not all board members were disinterested, however they learned very quickly that they did not hold a voting majority and were simply outvoted when disagreements arose. Three of these board members, who represented the Lets-Not-Do-Business-As-Usual party have recently resigned.) On the other hand, a long serving board member, Ray Richmond has proudly summed up his duties by saying "our job is to rubber stamp the director." He plans to continue on the Board until 2005 - at which time he will have served 6 + years. Unfortunately, while the truly wonderful teachers are working their bums off to serve their students and giving Idaho tax payers the best bang for their buck imaginable (they are paid well under the local teacher pay rate) the administrator, many Board members, and the financial / business manager are diligently at work wasting our tax dollars. As a taxpayer and sensible adult, it did not make me happy to learn that during the Christmas Break of 2001 the school director and her husband were treated by the Board to an overnight stay at the Coeur d' Alene Resort (the Fantasy in Lights Package for $295.00) as a reward for her work after only four months on the job. I have copies of the minutes in which Susan Seaman, the director, thanks the board for "a memorable evening." I have a copy of the flyer detailing the holiday package chosen, a copy of the payment voucher, and a written admission on school letterhead from the business manager that the trip was paid with general education funds. (Without the Freedom of Information Act, neither you nor I would know anything about this grotesque abuse of state funds.) The school's treasurer and the school's business manager arranged this little trip; the school's director happily accepted it. Is this beginning to sound like the Mayor of Boise? When this information was made public (to the parents in the school), the parties involved dashed off to the school attorney to construct a defense for themselves. Apparently they believe that paying back the money and sending a contrite letter to the prosecutor will absolve them of liability. I hope this is not the case, and I also hope that our tax dollars will not be used to pay for their defense. Perhaps you will be equally cheered to learn that the business manager hired, supervised and paid her husband for off again on again handyman work around the school. With one minuted exception, this work was done without the direct knowledge or oversight of the Board. (By the way, the business manager is also an ex-officio board member. Can you say ethics problem? I think you can.) Most of the Board members who presented the school director with the "appreciation" trip vigorously defend the business manager's hiring of her own husband as well as his generous rate of pay, despite their ignorance of his employment. I understand that, under pressure, the Board has agreed not to hire him in the future. Still, if the terms are as liberal for you as they were for him, here's what you can expect to be paid for the following odd jobs: 8-19-02: Labor $175, Material $0; Comments: Stow unwanted books & Mat'ls 9-18-02: Labor $200, Material $0; Comments: Expecting visitors from Boise Spruce up doors, windows, trash, grounds 9-24-02: Labor $75; Materials $5; Comments: Put up tv 9-25: Labor $50; Materials $5; Comments: Repr doorlock H/S Our ex-handyman is not the only employee who benefits from the board's selective generosity. The director, Susan Seaman's salary this year will is in excess of $68,000 (plus benefits and she will also have a lovely travel budget for her endless jaunts). FYI, there are currently less than 70 students enrolled in the school. The business manager, Carol Kampenhout, pays herself in excess of $19.00/hr plus overtime (roughly 40,000 - 45,000/year.) She is unable/unwilling to tell us how many hours she plans to work. MSD officials have been courteous and responsive to the concerns of Renaissance Public Charter School parents. They have lived up to the letter and, in my opinion, the spirit of the current Charter School law. RPCS has been routinely audited and has passed the audits. The money in and money out part balances. But an audit that reveals the kind of information that I am sharing is not required, and certainly Moscow School District had no way of knowing about it. Despite these horrific examples, Moscow School District has done a good job in monitoring financial oversight at the school, but their hands are tied. The director and Board members of RPCS have repeatedly warned parents and supporters not to report these problems to the district - and until this summer have generally stifled dissent. (Okay guys, imagine trying to shut me up by threats - in your dreams.) By statue, the only enforcement mechanism the district has is to remove the charter, thus closing the school. If management and Board membership issues could be addressed, we could avoid throwing the baby out with the bath water. Many concerned parents and supporters of Renaissance have spent the summer asking the Board to address our concerns. We won't be receiving an appreciation gift for our hard work. Instead, we are characterized by the director, Susan Seaman, as "well poisoners" and "troublemakers". Some board members prefer to use obscenities when referring to us, or, dismiss us as liars. ) Seasoned readers of Vision 20/20 can imagine how deeply hurt I feel by these unkind words : ) Moreover, the RPCS Board is right in their assertion that we can bring these problems into the light but we can do nothing about them. We have no power to force board responsiveness, and hence no power to effect changes. Therefore, I am asking that readers of Vision 20/20 to support legislation that will increase accountability for Board members of charter schools by having direct elections from their constituency. I also ask that those readers who are interested in fiscal responsibility and accountability from our public schools join with the concerned parents and supporters of Renaissance School and demand the immediate resignation of Susan Seaman, the school director; Carol Kampenhout, the Business Manager, Ray Richmond, Board Member and Deborah Lind, Acting Board President. Please feel free to email me privately with any questions or documentation of my allegations. Best, Rose Huskey ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C355DB.D08F8010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Recently, the Thomas = B. Fordham=20 Institute did a review of charter school overseers. Check out: http://www.edexcellence.net/tbfinstitute/authorizers.html=

Note #1:=20 Idaho Charter schools were not part of the study because = they were=20 deemed to have insufficient legal or fiscal autonomy so that they it was = questionable as to whether they should be called charter schools at all. = The law=20 allowing charter schools in Idaho was so loaded with strings that there = is some=20 question as to their ability to operate independently.
 
Note #2: = the=20 Moscow Education Association, at one of their recent meetings, discussed = ways of=20 shutting down the local charter schools to force students back = into the=20 public schools to increase state aid.
 
Rose, I wish = you the=20 best in trying to resolve these issues. It could be a watershed action = in=20 Moscow.
 
Best,
Dale
 

From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of=20 DonaldH675@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, 29 July, 2003=20 13:37
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: = [Vision2020]=20 Fiscal Failures at Charter Schools

Dear Visionaries,

One aspect of public = education=20 rarely discussed on this list is the charter school.  Charter = schools are=20 public schools paid for with public monies that must meet state = standards=20 regarding achievement but which have a great deal of latitude in how = education=20 is delivered. Locally, Moscow School District "holds" the charters of=20 Renaissance Public Charter School and Moscow Charter School, but it = has no=20 statutory authority to address internal governance.  MSD conducts = an=20 annual review of the local charter schools which includes audited = financial=20 records and educational testing scores, among other items.  = Recently, at=20 an MSD Board meeting preliminary approval for the year was granted to = Moscow=20 Charter School and was withheld from Renaissance Charter=20 School.

Charter school board members are not directly elected = by the=20 parents of charter school parents or by the tax-payers in the charter = school's=20 district. Rather, they are generally self-selected by school founders = and=20 evolve over to time to include members nominated and voted for by the = sitting=20 board members.   A system of self-selection can make for a = system=20 rife with abuse.  Our local legislators have made gallant = attempts to=20 sponsor legislation that will correct this glitch, but so far, the = state=20 legislature has not been able to enact a statute that will remedy the=20 situation.

Renaissance Public Charter School, which my = grandchildren=20 attended until recently, is facing a huge deficit.  = (Approximately=20 $18,000 was overspent during last year's budget, they have a $9,000 = holdback=20 from the state, and they misappropriated $5,000 from a grant that must = be paid=20 back.)  This deficit is the result of very poor financial = management,=20 state educational holdbacks, lack of Board oversight, and a declining = student=20 population. It is not due, which is the excuse offered by director = Susan=20 Seaman, to lower than expected daily attendance, or - and this is a = deliberate=20 misrepresentation she favors - a planned downsizing because the school = buildings are small.

RPCS is blessed with an extraordinary = faculty and=20 cursed by fiscally irresponsible administrators, and a historically=20 disinterested board.  (Not all board members were disinterested, = however=20 they learned very quickly that they did not hold a voting majority and = were=20 simply outvoted when disagreements arose. Three of these board = members, who=20 represented the Lets-Not-Do-Business-As-Usual party have recently = resigned.)=20 On the other hand, a long serving board member, Ray Richmond has = proudly=20 summed up his duties by saying "our job is to rubber stamp the=20 director."  He plans to continue on the Board until 2005 - at = which time=20 he will have served 6 + years.

Unfortunately, while the truly = wonderful=20 teachers are working their bums off to serve their students and giving = Idaho=20 tax payers the best bang for their buck imaginable (they are paid well = under=20 the local teacher pay rate) the administrator, many Board members, and = the=20 financial / business manager are diligently at work wasting our tax=20 dollars.

As a taxpayer and sensible adult, it did not make me = happy to=20 learn that during the Christmas Break of 2001 the school director and = her=20 husband were treated by the Board to an overnight stay at the Coeur d' = Alene=20 Resort (the Fantasy in Lights Package for $295.00) as a reward for her = work=20 after only four months on the job.  I have copies of the minutes = in which=20 Susan Seaman, the director, thanks the board for "a memorable = evening." =20 I have a copy of the flyer detailing the holiday package chosen, a = copy of the=20 payment voucher, and a written admission on school letterhead from the = business manager that the trip was paid with general education = funds. =20 (Without the Freedom of Information Act, neither you nor I would know = anything=20 about this grotesque abuse of state funds.)

The school's = treasurer and=20 the school's business manager arranged this little trip; the school's = director=20 happily accepted it.  Is this beginning to sound like the Mayor = of=20 Boise?  When this information was made public (to the parents in = the=20 school), the parties involved dashed off to the school attorney to = construct a=20 defense for themselves.  Apparently they believe that paying back = the=20 money and sending a contrite letter to the prosecutor will absolve = them of=20 liability.  I hope this is not the case, and I also hope that our = tax=20 dollars will not be used to pay for their defense.  =

Perhaps you=20 will be equally cheered to learn that the business manager hired, = supervised=20 and paid her husband for off again on again handyman work around the = school.=20 With one minuted exception, this work was done without the direct = knowledge or=20 oversight of the Board.  (By the way, the business manager is = also an=20 ex-officio board member.  Can you say ethics problem?  I = think you=20 can.)  Most of the Board members who presented the school = director with=20 the "appreciation" trip vigorously defend the business manager's = hiring of her=20 own husband as well as his generous rate of pay, despite their = ignorance of=20 his employment.   I understand that, under pressure, the = Board has=20 agreed not to hire him in the future.  Still, if the terms are as = liberal=20 for you as they were for him, here's what you can expect to be paid = for the=20 following odd jobs:

8-19-02:  Labor $175, Material $0;=20 Comments:  Stow unwanted books & Mat'ls
9-18-02:  = Labor $200,=20 Material $0; Comments: Expecting visitors from Boise Spruce up doors, = windows,=20 trash, grounds
9-24-02: Labor $75; Materials $5; Comments: Put up=20 tv
9-25: Labor $50; Materials $5; Comments: Repr doorlock = H/S

Our=20 ex-handyman is not the only employee who benefits from the board's = selective=20 generosity. The director, Susan Seaman's salary this year will is in = excess of=20 $68,000 (plus benefits and she will also have a lovely travel budget = for her=20 endless jaunts).  FYI, there are currently less than 70 students = enrolled=20 in the school.  The business manager, Carol Kampenhout, pays = herself in=20 excess of $19.00/hr plus overtime (roughly 40,000 - = 45,000/year.)  She is=20 unable/unwilling to tell us how many hours she plans to = work.

MSD=20 officials have been courteous and responsive to the concerns of = Renaissance=20 Public Charter School parents.  They have lived up to the letter = and, in=20 my opinion, the spirit of the current Charter School law.  RPCS = has been=20 routinely audited and has passed the audits. The money in and money = out part=20 balances.  But an audit that reveals the kind of information that = I am=20 sharing is not required, and certainly Moscow School District had no = way of=20 knowing about it.  Despite these horrific examples, Moscow School = District has done a good job in monitoring financial oversight at the = school,=20 but their hands are tied.  The director and Board members of RPCS = have=20 repeatedly warned parents and supporters not to report these problems = to the=20 district - and until this summer have generally stifled dissent.  = (Okay=20 guys, imagine trying to shut me up by threats - in your dreams.)
By = statue,=20 the only enforcement mechanism the district has is to remove the = charter, thus=20 closing the school.  If management and Board membership issues = could be=20 addressed, we could avoid throwing the baby out with the bath=20 water.

Many concerned parents and supporters of Renaissance = have spent=20 the summer asking the Board to address our concerns. We won't be = receiving an=20 appreciation gift for our hard work. Instead, we are characterized by = the=20 director, Susan Seaman, as "well poisoners" and "troublemakers".  = Some=20 board members prefer to use obscenities when referring to us, or, = dismiss us=20 as liars. ) Seasoned readers of Vision 20/20 can imagine how deeply = hurt I=20 feel by these unkind words : )  Moreover, the RPCS Board is right = in=20 their assertion that we can bring these problems into the light but we = can do=20 nothing about them. We have no power to force board responsiveness, = and hence=20 no power to effect changes. 

Therefore, I am asking that = readers=20 of Vision 20/20 to support legislation that will increase = accountability for=20 Board members of charter schools by having direct elections from their = constituency.  I also ask that those readers who are interested = in fiscal=20 responsibility and accountability from our public schools join with = the=20 concerned parents and supporters of Renaissance School and demand the=20 immediate resignation of Susan Seaman, the school director; Carol = Kampenhout,=20 the Business Manager, Ray Richmond, Board Member and Deborah Lind, = Acting=20 Board President.  Please feel free to email me privately with any = questions or documentation of my allegations.
Best,
Rose=20 Huskey

 ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C355DB.D08F8010-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jul 29 22:37:57 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:37:57 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article Message-ID: Dale et. al. I was relying on the statements of a Moscow High School teacher, Don Kaag, who wrote in a V2020 post addressed to you, Dale, asserting in his fourth point in that post regarding teacher's pay: "Continuing recertification requirements generally require teachers to go to school every summer." Perhaps I misunderstood what this statement means, but it sounds like a serious professional expectation for teachers to take summer school courses or will they lose certification? What does it mean to have a "recertification requirement?" But even if summer school courses are not absolutely mandatory, there is still a cost to taking summer vacations that eventually will lower a teachers pay, that involves professional expectations that are not optional without penalty, which still means that the annualized salary figure you are using would need to be adjusted to reflect the income lost when taking summer vacations or while taking summer courses. There is the cost of the lack of advancement that will occur by not doing more academic education while on vacation. And again, if they MUST take the summer school courses to advance, then the income from the job they could have worked during this time is still income lost! Yes of course they will earn more money due to advancement after taking the courses, but the income lost while taking the courses and not working a job is still lost. And if teachers must sometimes pay their own tuition for summer school courses connected to professional requirements, this also must be included in your estimates. So your annualizing equation needs to be adjusted to reflect this fact. Let' get to the heart of this argument: In annualizing teachers pay the point is to show what they really could make if they worked a full 12 months compared to other professions that must work 12 months out of the year for their income. But there are many jobs where you can advance your career and income without being forced to take time off to take courses. This is where your annualizing of teacher pay from 10 to 12 months to compare their profession with other professions who must work 12 months breaks down. In effect when you annualize teachers pay, you are assuming they always could work 12 months at a certain rate of pay. But the 2 months off are not always in reality a time when they could be working a job earning income: to consider summer school course work as an income earning "job" is not accurate. I will state again, many other professions offer advancement and pay increases without a period of "off time" with no pay that is mandatory for advancement in that profession. So your annualizing of teachers pay leads you to inflate their income, and make a misleading comparison of their profession with many others. I understand you have pointed out that teachers can take course work that has nothing to do with their specialty to satisfy requirements for advancement, which seems the wrong approach to maximizing teacher performance in their specialty. But they still must take courses of some sort to advance. More comments spliced in below: >>Ted wrote: > > I have discovered several logical errors in Dale's arguments > > regarding teacher pay. > >Let's have at it! > > > Dale asserts that teachers pay should be "annualized" to > > truly reflect what they could earn over the course of a full > > year as if two months of extra pay were tacked on to their > > yearly salary by dividing their salary by ten and multiplying > > this figure by 2 for the extra two months. But in fact if > > teachers are required to attend summer school during this > > "off" time, part of the requirements of their profession > > negates the possibility they could work full time during this > > "off" period, so in fact it is not correct to claim their > > salary must be annualized for a true estimate of their income > > compared to other professions. > >They are not *required* to attend during school during that off time. They >can teach summer school, go on a 3 month cruise, or hand out carts at >Wal-Mart. It's up to them. > >The point is -- it is an *opportunity* for them to earn extra money. Going >to school is one way that they can increase their pay. Yes, but you must figure into your calculations for annualizing pay the money not earned pushing carts at Wal-Mart (a rather unlikely summer job for a teacher) while they take those summer school courses which are REQUIRED for advancement, even if they are not required to maintain teaching certification (and this later point needs to be followed up on). This is my point. When you annualize the teachers pay you assume they can always work the full 12 month year at a certain rate of pay. But somewhere in the career of a teacher they are in summer school to do more academic work, and this activity is required for their career as a teacher. Any increase in pay they may gain via the summer school courses does not happen while they are in summer school. And if they continue to take summer vacations, there can be a real reduction in their income do to not fulfilling academic requirements for advancement. So the annualized pay figures need to be adjusted to reflect the income lost while not working during summer school courses, or the income lost because they did not advance as quickly by skipping the summer school courses, no matter how you look at it. > > > Also, Dale's referencing of the concept of "opportunity > > costs" is in some cases backwards from what it appears he > > intends to assert via the use of this concept. If a teacher > > must take summer school during the summer 2 month break from > > the regular school year as a requirement of their profession, > > and their next best alternative would be to work a well > > paying job during this 2 month period instead, the > > "opportunity cost" of summer school is in part the loss of > > the income that could have been generated by working during > > summer school. > >No, they must *not* take classes. It is an opportunity to. But if they do not take the courses, there is an real economic penalty somewhere eventually that lowers their pay. This must be reflected in your annualizing equation. Is it? > >Please read up on what Opportunity Costs mean in the economic sense. It's >quite revealing: http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/OpportunityCost.html > > > Read the passage below and see the link Dale supplied on > > "opportunity costs" > > in regards to my arguments above. > >You missed the boat because there is no mandatory thing that government >teachers *must* do during their summers off. That's what makes it a real >dream for their opportunities. > But still a dream that has real economic consequences. You seem to imply a teacher can take summer vacations ad infinitum with no economic penalty. This is false. I think in making your case regarding the overall income of teachers when you figure in benefits and perks and annualizing their salary, you are not fairly considering all variables in your equations. Ted _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 29 22:54:52 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:54:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200307292154.h6TLstQU021308@whale2.fsr.net> Ted writes: > Let' get to the heart of this argument: > In annualizing teachers pay the point is to show what they > really could make if they worked a full 12 months compared to > other professions that must work > 12 months out of the year for their income. But there are > many jobs where you can advance your career and income > without being forced to take time off to take courses. This > is where your annualizing of teacher pay from 10 to 12 months > to compare their profession with other professions who must > work 12 months breaks down. In effect when you annualize > teachers pay, you are assuming they always could work 12 > months at a certain rate of pay. But the 2 months off are > not always in > reality a time when they could be working a job earning > income: to consider summer school course work as an income > earning "job" is not accurate. I will state again, many > other professions offer advancement and pay increases without > a period of "off time" with no pay that is mandatory for > advancement in that profession. So your annualizing of > teachers pay leads you to inflate their income, and make a > misleading comparison of their profession with many others. Ted, First, they teach < 180 days/year. You cannot count the entire time that they have off during the summer as "a wash". They *do* have the opportunity to do other things for more income. If they didn't, then I'd agree with your points. But they *do* -- and when you do salary calculations, you *must* take opportunity costs into consideration. BTW, it's not *me* who decided this is the right way to do salary normalization. All economists that I know of, when looking at total cost, take the summer months into consideration. For instance, see this economic evaluation done by the "Education Next" foundation (http://www.educationnext.org/20033/71.html) -- they have an entire section dealing with "Summers Off" (and I think answer your objection). Bottom line: the Summers off cannot be ignored when you realize that teachers are paid $76k/9 months! > I understand you have pointed out that teachers can take > course work that has nothing to do with their specialty to > satisfy requirements for advancement, which seems the wrong > approach to maximizing teacher performance in their > specialty. But they still must take courses of some sort to advance. Yes, but the entire incentive system is upside down -- and people *do* act according to the incentives given. We're giving teachers a *big* incentive (get more pay!) but with the easiest course (in *any* subject!). Finally, one question for you -- how do you feel about paying (from your property taxes) for 77% of all MSD teachers to be at the top of the salary grid? Does *that* seem like a wise use of taxpayers funds? Best, Dale From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 29 23:04:42 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:04:42 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article In-Reply-To: <200307292154.h6TLstQU021308@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <200307292204.h6TM4jQU039044@whale2.fsr.net> I wrote: > Bottom line: the Summers off cannot be ignored when you > realize that teachers are paid $76k/9 months! That should have read "the Summers off cannot be ignored when you realize that teachers are paid $55.3k/9 months!" My apologies. Best, Dale From FCS@Moscow.com Tue Jul 29 23:11:00 2003 From: FCS@Moscow.com (Mark Seman) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:11:00 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] City Taxes, again In-Reply-To: <000e01c35561$e0b39500$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C355E3.9E9E56A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There have been a lot of good issues brought up about this topic and the impact on local businesses that governmental and institutional decision makers have. When the economy is rolling along, there is generally enough currency flowing to everyone, but during hard times the flow really slows down. Those that have control over cashflow should adjust their mindsets to allow sustainability of the local businesses that are more susceptible to downturns. Local businesses lose out to the larger corporations that offer money savings to the spenders. It makes perfect short-term sense to help cut costs, but it also has long-term effects that won't be evident for some time. It's about perspective and priority. Talk about economic development is always good, but it takes a change in mindset and a willingness to spend (invest) locally for the long-term ROI. To change the zeitgeist, to make adjustments for the changing times takes foresight and commitment, not just slogans and propaganda. This high level of commitment to local investment is rarely seen, but when it occurs, it stands head and shoulders above the status quo. Everyone can sense the difference between the quick buck and the investment for the future. Mark Seman *** ***** *** Full Circle Studios 828 South Washington, Suite B Moscow, Idaho 83843 v 208-883-3276 f 208-883-0112 FCS@Moscow.com ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C355E3.9E9E56A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There=20 have been a lot of good issues brought up about this topic and the = impact on=20 local businesses that governmental and institutional decision makers = have. =20 When the economy is rolling along, there is generally enough currency = flowing to=20 everyone, but during hard times the flow really slows down.  Those = that=20 have control over cashflow should adjust their mindsets to allow = sustainability=20 of the local businesses that are more susceptible to = downturns.  Local=20 businesses lose out to the larger corporations that offer money savings = to the=20 spenders.  It makes perfect short-term sense to help cut costs, but = it also=20 has long-term effects that won't be evident for some time.  It's = about=20 perspective and priority.  Talk about economic development is = always good,=20 but it takes a change in mindset and a willingness to spend (invest) = locally for=20 the long-term ROI.  To change the zeitgeist, to make adjustments = for the=20 changing times takes foresight and commitment, not just slogans and=20 propaganda.  This high = level of=20 commitment to local investment is rarely seen, but when it occurs, it = stands=20 head and shoulders above the status quo.  Everyone can sense the = difference=20 between the quick buck and the investment for the=20 future.
 
Mark Seman
***  =20 *****   ***
Full Circle Studios
828 South Washington, = Suite=20 B
Moscow, Idaho 83843
v 208-883-3276
f=20 208-883-0112
FCS@Moscow.com
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C355E3.9E9E56A0-- From nielsen@uidaho.edu Tue Jul 29 23:24:38 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:24:38 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Predictions for 1st century C.E. In-Reply-To: <20030729171300.19787.52663.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <70D397C8-C213-11D7-AB6D-00039385F674@uidaho.edu> --Apple-Mail-2--394100204 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > RALPH NIELSEN > Here are some predictions that were made over 1900 years ago that were = =20 > supposed to have taken place within a generation or two after they =20 > were made: > > Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall > not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his > kingdom. Matt. 16:28 > > But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall > not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27 > > See Acts 2:15-17 in which Peter invokes a prophecy by Joel to > explain why a gathering of diverse peoples understood each other's > language. This outpouring of God's Spirit was a sign that the end > was near. > > But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both > they that have wives be as though they had none; 1 Cor. 7:29 > > Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at > hand. Phil. 4:5 > > For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are > alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent =20 > [precede] > them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from > heaven... Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up > together with them in the clouds... > 1 Thess. 4:15-16 > > God...Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son... Heb. > 1:1-2 > > For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the > world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to > put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb. 9:26 > > For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and > will not tarry. Heb. 10:37 > > Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord... > stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth > nigh...behold, the judge standeth before the door. James 5:7-9 > > But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and > watch unto prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 > > Christ...was manifest in these last times for you,... 1 Peter 1:19- > 20 > > Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that > antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby > we know that it is the last time. 1 John 2:18 > > The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to > shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;... > Rev. 1:1 > > Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this > prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the > time is at hand. > Rev. 1:3 > > Behold, I come quickly. Rev. 3:11 > > And he said unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this > book: for the time is at hand... He which testifieth these things > saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. > Rev. 22:10, 20. > > But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for > verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of > Israel, till the Son of man be come. Matt 10:23 > > = ***********************************************************************=20= > ********************** > Nixon: "I am not a crook." > Bush I: "Read my lips -- no new taxes." > Jesus: "I am coming soon." (Rev. 3:11) > > Ralph Nielsen > Moscow > > > > > From: "Dale Courtney" > Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:12:53 AM US/Pacific > To: > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Predictions for August 2003 > > > Ralph, > =A0 > You're a hoot. Stambler is a false prophet and you falsely interpret =20= > prophecies. Are you sure that he's not your son? > =A0 > Even a child can understand the difference between a "coming in =20 > judgment" and a personal coming. There was=A0a coming in judgment in = 70 =20 > AD. All those prophecies you cited were fully fulfilled in the first =20= > century, just as Christ said they would be. > =A0 > But then again, your mind has already chosen to embrace what your =20 > heart=A0believes. Enjoy your spiritual mastu...=A0 oh, never mind. > RALPH NIELSEN Dale, you forgot to show us where in the New Testament it distinguishes =20= between what you call "a coming in judgment" and "a personal coming." =20= You didn't get them from the text and you didn't get the idea from =20 serious NT scholars. I have never heard of this kind of rationalization =20= before.=20= --Apple-Mail-2--394100204 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 RALPH NIELSEN Here are some predictions that were made over 1900 years ago that were supposed to have taken place within a generation or two after they were made: Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matt. 16:28 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27 See Acts 2:15-17 in which Peter invokes a prophecy by Joel to explain why a gathering of diverse peoples understood each other's language. This outpouring of God's Spirit was a sign that the end was near. But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; 1 Cor. 7:29 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Phil. 4:5 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede]=20 them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven... Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds... 1 Thess. 4:15-16 God...Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son... Heb. 1:1-2 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb. 9:26 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Heb. 10:37 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord... stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh...behold, the judge standeth before the door. James 5:7-9 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 Christ...was manifest in these last times for you,... 1 Peter 1:19- 20 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1 John 2:18 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;... Rev. 1:1 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev. 1:3 Behold, I come quickly. Rev. 3:11 And he said unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand... He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Rev. 22:10, 20. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Matt 10:23 = **************************************************************************= ******************* Nixon: "I am not a crook." Bush I: "Read my lips -- no new taxes." Jesus: "I am coming soon." (Rev. 3:11) Ralph Nielsen Moscow From: "Dale Courtney" < Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:12:53 AM US/Pacific To: < Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Predictions for August 2003 = Arial8080,0000,0000Ralph, =A0 = Arial8080,0000,0000You're a hoot. Stambler is a false prophet and you falsely interpret prophecies. Are you sure that he's not your = son? =A0 = Arial8080,0000,0000Even a child can understand the difference between a "coming in judgment" and a personal coming. There was=A0a coming in judgment in 70 AD. All those prophecies you cited were fully fulfilled in the first century, just as Christ said they would be. =A0 = Arial8080,0000,0000But then again, your mind has already chosen to embrace what your heart=A0believes. Enjoy your spiritual mastu...=A0 oh, never = mind. RALPH NIELSEN Dale, you forgot to show us where in the New Testament it distinguishes between what you call "a coming in judgment" and "a personal coming." You didn't get them from the text and you didn't get the idea from serious NT scholars. I have never heard of this kind of rationalization before.=20= --Apple-Mail-2--394100204-- From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jul 29 23:33:25 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:33:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Predictions for 1st century C.E. In-Reply-To: <70D397C8-C213-11D7-AB6D-00039385F674@uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <200307292233.h6TMXSQU088599@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C355E6.C06D1840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ralph, Then you need to get out and smell the coffee more often. These charges are not novel with you. Bertrand Russell tried them long ago. However, they were not new with him either; in fact, they were effectively argued against centuries ago. How funny we think that we find new questions that no one has asked for the last 2,000 years. Very provincial of us... Vision2020 is not a forum for discussing Christian doctrine, so I'm not going to tutor you here. If you want a reading list that discusses what you call a "novel" (but what is a historical) distinction between a "coming in judgment" and a "physical coming", contact me off-line and I'll give you more references that you have years left to read. Best, Dale RALPH NIELSEN Dale, you forgot to show us where in the New Testament it distinguishes between what you call "a coming in judgment" and "a personal coming." You didn't get them from the text and you didn't get the idea from serious NT scholars. I have never heard of this kind of rationalization before. ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C355E6.C06D1840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ralph,
 
Then you need to get out and smell the coffee = more=20 often. These charges are not novel with you. Bertrand Russell tried them = long=20 ago. However, they were not new with him either; in fact, they were = effectively=20 argued against centuries ago.
 
How funny we think that we find new questions = that no=20 one has asked for the last 2,000 years. Very provincial of=20 us...
 
Vision2020 is not a forum for discussing = Christian=20 doctrine, so I'm not going to tutor you here. If you want a reading list = that=20 discusses what you call a "novel" (but what is a historical) distinction = between=20 a "coming in judgment" and a "physical coming", contact me off-line and = I'll=20 give you more references that you have years left to read. =
 
Best,
Dale
 

RALPH=20 NIELSEN
Dale, you forgot to show us where in the New Testament it=20 distinguishes between what you call "a coming in judgment" and "a = personal=20 coming." You didn't get them from the text and you didn't get the idea = from=20 serious NT scholars. I have never heard of this kind of = rationalization=20 before. ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C355E6.C06D1840-- From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Wed Jul 30 01:04:43 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:04:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <051c01c3562e$c068e4d0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Greetings, Mr. Moffett: > Is support of the death penalty characteristic of dictatorships and so > called right wing regimes? I could say it's a right wing position. Your > casting of the death penalty as "left wing" reveals a bias on how you view > the issue, it seems. So you think the Vatican is "left wing?" That Canada, > Australia, France, England, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, etc. are all "left > wing?" I am so totally bored with this simple minded linear left vs. right > wing scheme for analyzing politics. You''ve got a nasty bias on this issue, don't you? > linked to differing interpretations of one of the Ten Commandments. The > evidence is overwhelming that such a difference of opinion in Christianity > does exist, is fervent and fundamental, involving millions of people who > disagree. The point of emphasizing this disagreement over the > interpretation of one of the Ten Commandments is to argue that indeed it can > be difficult for the flawed and limited human mind to gain perfect knowledge > of God's laws. Suppose there's a 35 mph sign somewhere in Moscow. Two men walk up, and one says, "Thirty-five? That's a fairly safe speed, don't you think?" Then the other fellow replies, "Thirty-five? It doesn't say thirty-five, it says 20. Are you blind or something?" Then an argument ensues between them. But the mere existence of a controversy doesn't make the law wrong, or confusing. The sign still says 35, and that's still the right speed to go.. The reason that there is a controversy over the death penalty is really because of man's sinfulness. Whatever God commands us not to do is what we want to do the most. He condemns stealing, yet thievery occurs en mass throughout the world. He condemns lying, but it is so natural for us to deceive others, and sometimes ourselves, when it suits our purposes. He condemns fornication, yet there are millions who either do it or tolerate it; the same goes for adultery. And the list goes ever on. Everything divinely forbidden is sought after, and so when God draws out a just reward for the murderer, the world today shuns His justice and lets the slayer get off free. > Science is a method of gaining knowledge based on replicable experiments > and/or data gathering using theory to make inferences from the facts, but > this method does not, as you state, "deny the existence of something unless > it can be chemically diagrammed or manipulated." If something cannot be > chemically diagrammed or manipulated, it may not be understood in these > terms, but why does it follow it does not exist, according to science? > Scientific method indicates that many possibilities exist, and none can be > ruled out till they are examined with experiment and observation and theory. > Even then, many explanations for a given phenomena may still be possible. > What is your point? Oh, I have nothing wrong with science, but it is a tool with limited application; you cannot make moral judgments off of scientific knowledge, or upon the basis of empirical probability, which is in effect what you were doing. Have a good day, Luke Nieuwsma From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 01:45:02 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Library Renovations - Public Internet Access Message-ID: <20030730004502.7051.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1098391378-1059525902=:4522 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi: As you probably already know, the Moscow public library will be closing for two weeks at the beginning of August. Since the University of Idaho does not allow the public to use its computers to access the Internet, I am wondering if either Cactus Computer or First Step Internet can come up with an alternative for the general public while the public library is being renovated. I am posting this message on the Vision 2020 Forum, with the hope that maybe someone will step forward with public access to the Internet during the first half of August. Thanks. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Moscow) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1098391378-1059525902=:4522 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hi:
 
As you probably already know, the Moscow public library will be closing for two weeks at the beginning of August.  Since the University of Idaho does not allow the public to use its computers to access the Internet, I am wondering if either Cactus Computer or First Step Internet can come up with an alternative for the general public while the public library is being renovated.
 
I am posting this message on the Vision 2020 Forum, with the hope that maybe someone will step forward with public access to the Internet during the first half of August.
 
Thanks.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Moscow)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1098391378-1059525902=:4522-- From timlohr@yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 02:26:43 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article was incomplete In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030730012643.76075.qmail@web10909.mail.yahoo.com> Donavan, What you write at the end is just the point. Teachers are NOW being used to save money. The only difference is that a few of them are losing their employment entirely instead of a smaller cut for all. My point is that IF cuts are going to happen, wouldn't the teacher's union's spirit of solidarity be better exemplified by all taking a small cut rather than a few losing their jobs entirely. TL --- Donovan Arnold wrote: > This has never happened before, but I agree with Mr. > Kaag. (What is > happening to me, I agree with Luke, Dale, and now > Mr. Kaag on something!) > > I think teachers are treated horriblely, and I would > fight to have them keep > the pay they have. I think many teachers already > spend their own free time > and income helping students. > > Tim, I think having teachers agree to a pay cut is a > BAD idea. This is > saying that they can afford a pay cut and will be > used in the future as a > way to save money. I think members of the community > need to agree to pay our > teachers more pay, not have the teachers agree to > take less pay. > > Thanks! > > Donovan J Arnold > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann > >To: Don Kaag > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Letter to the Editor: > Teacher salary article was > >incomplete > >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:02:29 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Don, > > This is an era when teachers are being laid > off > >from their jobs because of either a lack of funding > or > >a decline in the number of students or both. > > Why doesn't the teacher's union, in the spirit > of > >solidarity, voluntarily adopt an across the board > pay > >cut for all teachers and especially the higher paid > >administrators in the approximate per-capita amount > >that it would require to retain those teachers? > > The issue these days doesn't seem to involve > >teachers with much bargaining power to make demands > >other than retaining their jobs. There are many > >qualified teachers in Moscow who are unemployed, > >underemployed etc. Most teaching jobs advertised in > >the public schools hereabouts receive dozens of > >applications. > > If the union is sincerely concerned with the > >cutbacks and layoffs it would seem that they should > >demonstrate it. > > > > TL > > > > > > > > > >--- Don Kaag wrote: > > > Dale: > > > > > > As the token public school teacher, I have a > couple > > > of questions and > > > comments... > > > > > > 1. Our compensation package is not as good as > > > either UI or WSU. > > > > > > 2. In the last three years, the cost of our > medical > > > insurance to each > > > member (and we are required to be members of the > > > pool...) has increased > > > each year by more than the district has > increased > > > their contribution. > > > Given that our salaries have not come close to > > > matching annual > > > cost-of-living inflation, that means that, in > > > effect, we have > > > experienced pay cuts for at least the last three > > > years. > > > > > > 3. What summer school? > > > > > > 4. Continuing recertification requirements > generally > > > require teachers > > > to go to school every summer, and no, the school > > > district does NOT pay > > > us to attend! We pay tuition like everyone > else. > > > Most of us not > > > attending college courses in the summer are > working > > > on curriculum, on > > > our own time, "off the clock", for the next > school > > > year. > > > > > > 5. If you are attending summer school most of > the > > > summer, the chances > > > of A) other employment, or B) extended > vacations, > > > are slim. > > > > > > 6. There are very few coaches as a percentage > of > > > the total number of > > > teachers in this district. Those teachers who > do > > > coach make a > > > pittance, and work long hours on nights and > weekends > > > to earn it. Most > > > of the extracurricular activities requiring > teacher > > > presence are > > > covered by volunteer teachers, i.e., WE DO NOT > GET > > > PAID FOR OUR TIME > > > OUTSIDE OF THE SCHOOL DAY! > > > > > > 7. Most of the teachers I know come early and > stay > > > late. > > > Additionally, we work nights and weekends on > > > correcting assignments and > > > exams, writing lesson plans, contacting parents, > and > > > on professional > > > reading and education. > > > > > > 8. Salaries in Idaho are so low, and the > attitude > > > of many Idahoans > > > towards public education is so poor, that very > few > > > of our student > > > teachers stay here and teach in the state. We > are > > > supporting higher > > > education to train teachers to teach in Idaho > > > schools, and they are > > > very intelligently packing their bags and going > > > elsewhere to teach upon > > > graduation. So, what will happen to both the > public > > > and private > > > schools in Moscow when the 77% of the district > > > teachers who are at the > > > top of the experience and education scales hit > > > retirement (Most of them > > > in the next 5 years.), should be interesting to > > > watch. > > > > > > 9. I am all for merit pay. My salary will go > up. > > > I have a Masters > > > degree (3.93 GPA) in History, and the equivalent > of > > > another in > > > post-Masters courses. (I teach Advanced > Placement > > > U.S. History to high > > > school juniors, and my kids are tested by > worldwide > > > competitive exam, > > > administered by the Educational Testing Service, > the > > > same folks who > > > write and administer the College Boards.) > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Don Kaag > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, July 28, 2003, at 04:27 PM, Dale > Courtney > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I wrote the following Letter to the Editor in > > > response to Alexis > > > > Bacharach's article last weekend. It ran in > > > today's Daily News. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Dale Courtney > > > > Moscow, Idaho > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moscow teachers are paid more than the state > > > average because teacher > > > > pay is based on a) the number of college > credits > > > attained (in any > > > > subject) and b) the number of years of > teaching. > > > However, the article > > > > left out many important details. Teachers are > > > further compensated in > > > > at least three significant ways that are > typically > > > ignored in salary > > > > discussions. First, teacher benefits account > for > > > an additional 28.6% > > > > of their salary. In the private sector, fringe > > > benefits average 15.8% > > > > of salary. > > > > > > > > Second, MSD teachers instruct 168-170 days per > > > year for the salary > > > > discussed above (the national average is 180 > > > teaching days per year). > > > > The average American works 240 days per > > > year—nearly 30 percent more > > > > days than government teachers for the pay they > > > receive; plus, they > > > > have the opportunity to teach summer school, > go on > > > vacations, take > > > > other employment opportunities, or be paid by > MSD > > > to attend college to > > > > add to their salary. To compare MSD teacher > > > salaries to the rest of > > > > the nation's salaries, teacher salaries must > be > > > "annualized"—converted > > > > from a school year to a 12-month scale. To see > the > > > results of this > > > > normalization, visit > > > http://courtneys.us/msd/Teacher_Salaries.htm > > > > > > > > When you include these first two compensations > > > (benefits and > > > > annualized salary), the real average MSD > teacher > > > salary is $63,663; > > > > and 77% of all MSD teachers are making over > this > > > amount. > > > > > > > > Third, these salary figures do not include > extra > > > pay for all the > > > > extracurricular activities, such as coaching. > This > > > compensation at MSD > > > > can be significant—up to 48% again the > teacher's > > > base salary. > > > > > > > > Three things fall out from the above > discussion. > > > First, teacher pay is > > > > not based on merit or excellence in teaching. > > > Second, the fastest way > > > > to a pay raise is to get more college > credit—in > > > anything! Third, > > > > having 77% of all teachers at the top of the > > > salary grid is > > > > mismanagement of taxpayer funds. > > > > > > > > Dale Courtney > > > > Moscow > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > design software > >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step > Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since > 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months > FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Wed Jul 30 06:19:12 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:19:12 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] re: Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article Message-ID: <12c.2f05bab3.2c58af50@aol.com> --part1_12c.2f05bab3.2c58af50_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted, I do not know of one single teacher that was *forced* at gunpoint to "choose" their profession. Granted, their might be some truth to those who cannot do, teach. Phil --part1_12c.2f05bab3.2c58af50_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ted,

  I do not know of one single teacher that was *forced* at gunpoint to=20= "choose" their profession. Granted, their might be some truth to those who c= annot do, teach.

Phil --part1_12c.2f05bab3.2c58af50_boundary-- From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Wed Jul 30 06:48:09 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:48:09 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Prophecy Message-ID: <28.3b9bebbd.2c58b619@aol.com> --part1_28.3b9bebbd.2c58b619_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Moscow's notorious Prophet worried about his online connection. Why? His prophecy #9 says the Internet will crash, never to be fully functional again. He'll have to get a soap box and stand on the corner and shout. To those that are left. Phil --part1_28.3b9bebbd.2c58b619_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Moscow's notorious Prophet worried about his online co= nnection. Why? His prophecy #9 says the Internet will crash, never to be ful= ly functional again. He'll have to get a soap box and stand on the corner an= d shout. To those that are left.

Phil
 --part1_28.3b9bebbd.2c58b619_boundary-- From dkaag@turbonet.com Wed Jul 30 14:27:57 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 06:27:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] re: Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article In-Reply-To: <12c.2f05bab3.2c58af50@aol.com> Message-ID: --Apple-Mail-4--339901325 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Phil: ...On the other hand, some of us are pretty competent, and could do=20 anything we wished to, including making a lot more money doing=20 something easier than teaching kids. I have had solid job offers which=20= started at three times what I make teaching here in a little town on=20 the edge of the wheat fields in the Idaho Panhandle. As for teachers' salaries in Moscow, Idaho, my brother, who lives and=20 works in suburban New Jersey, and is both married to a teacher and a=20 member of the local school board, tells me that the average teachers'=20 salary in his district is higher than the "cap" (10+ years of teaching=20= and a Masters degree... after that, you can go no higher on the salary=20= grid, even with a PhD, which several of my colleagues have.) on our=20 salary schedule, and that the highest paid teacher in his district, a=20 Chemistry teacher with 25 years and a PhD, makes $90,000 per year. =20 They also have a fully-district-funded medical plan and compensation=20 for any after school time spent on committees, meetings, chaperoning=20 school functions, etc. When I finished my Masters degree in History, my major professor and=20 the chair of the History department both recommended to me that, based=20= on my talent for research and writing and my performance in the=20 department, I apply to a PhD program and become a college teacher. =20 When I told the department head that I would enjoy that, but that I=20 thought I could make more of a difference in the world teaching kids in=20= the public schools, he was so surprised he blurted out what I am sure=20 is the attitude of many college professors and the general=20 public..."But you're too smart to be a public school teacher!" I will=20= get my PhD for fun, after I retire as a public school teacher, because=20= I still read extensively in my field and am fascinated with history. I am proud to be a teacher. I work very hard at it. I look forward to=20= going to work every day. It is not an easy job, but it is rewarding. =20= I love kids. Working with them is a privilege. And I know that I make=20= a difference in kids' lives, because they come back and tell me so. =20 Former students, some of them from 13 years ago, are still in contact=20 with me, and come and see me. I have made a difference in their lives,=20= and hopefully for the better. I set high standards and help kids=20 achieve them. My wife, a college professor and administrator, semi-jokingly refers to=20= what I do as a "public service position", because she makes more than=20 twice what I do, but she also thinks that what I do is important, and=20 is proud to be married to a teacher. Regards, Don Kaag On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 10:19 PM, Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: > Ted, > > =A0 I do not know of one single teacher that was *forced* at gunpoint = to=20 > "choose" their profession. Granted, their might be some truth to those=20= > who cannot do, teach. > > Phil > --Apple-Mail-4--339901325 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Phil: ...On the other hand, some of us are pretty competent, and could do anything we wished to, including making a lot more money doing something easier than teaching kids. I have had solid job offers which started at three times what I make teaching here in a little town on the edge of the wheat fields in the Idaho Panhandle. As for teachers' salaries in Moscow, Idaho, my brother, who lives and works in suburban New Jersey, and is both married to a teacher and a member of the local school board, tells me that the average teachers' salary in his district is higher than the "cap" (10+ years of teaching and a Masters degree... after that, you can go no higher on the salary grid, even with a PhD, which several of my colleagues have.) on our salary schedule, and that the highest paid teacher in his district, a Chemistry teacher with 25 years and a PhD, makes $90,000 per year.=20 They also have a fully-district-funded medical plan and compensation for any after school time spent on committees, meetings, chaperoning school functions, etc. When I finished my Masters degree in History, my major professor and the chair of the History department both recommended to me that, based on my talent for research and writing and my performance in the department, I apply to a PhD program and become a college teacher.=20 When I told the department head that I would enjoy that, but that I thought I could make more of a difference in the world teaching kids in the public schools, he was so surprised he blurted out what I am sure is the attitude of many college professors and the general public..."But you're too smart to be a public school teacher!" I will get my PhD for fun, after I retire as a public school teacher, because I still read extensively in my field and am fascinated with history. I am proud to be a teacher. I work very hard at it. I look forward to going to work every day. It is not an easy job, but it is rewarding. I love kids. Working with them is a privilege. And I know that I make a difference in kids' lives, because they come back and tell me so. Former students, some of them from 13 years ago, are still in contact with me, and come and see me. I have made a difference in their lives, and hopefully for the better. I set high standards and help kids achieve them. My wife, a college professor and administrator, semi-jokingly refers to what I do as a "public service position", because she makes more than twice what I do, but she also thinks that what I do is important, and is proud to be married to a teacher. Regards, Don Kaag On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 10:19 PM, Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: ArialTed, =A0 I do not know of one single teacher that was *forced* at gunpoint to "choose" their profession. Granted, their might be some truth to those who cannot do, teach. Phil = --Apple-Mail-4--339901325-- From dale@courtneys.us Wed Jul 30 17:33:21 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:33:21 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Gartner Says One Out of 10 Jobs in U.S. IT Vendors and IT Service Providers to Move Offshore by End of 2004 Message-ID: <001601c356b8$4a0ef010$c801a8c0@Laptop2> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C3567D.9D8844C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable STAMFORD, CONN., July 29, 2003 As offshore outsourcing ramps up and the dislocation of IT jobs in the = United States continues, CIOs must anticipate the potential loss of = talent, knowledge and performance. By year-end 2004, one out of every 10 = jobs within U.S.-based IT vendors and IT service providers will move to = emerging markets, as will one of every 20 IT jobs within user = enterprises, according to Gartner, Inc. (NYSE: IT and ITB).=20 http://www3.gartner.com/5_about/press_releases/pr29july2003a.jsp ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C3567D.9D8844C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
STAMFORD, CONN., July 29, = 2003
 
As offshore outsourcing ramps up and = the=20 dislocation of IT jobs in the United States continues, CIOs must = anticipate the=20 potential loss of talent, knowledge and performance. By year-end 2004, = one out=20 of every 10 jobs within U.S.-based IT vendors and IT service providers = will move=20 to emerging markets, as will one of every 20 IT jobs within user = enterprises,=20 according to Gartner, Inc. (NYSE: IT and ITB).
http://www3.gartner.com/5_about/press_releases/pr29july2003a.jsp ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C3567D.9D8844C0-- From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Wed Jul 30 17:52:51 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:52:51 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] re: Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Message-ID: <174.1e7c230c.2c5951e3@aol.com> --part1_174.1e7c230c.2c5951e3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Augh ...... Don, You think the Mayor of New Jersey gets paid the same as Mayor Comstock? Do you think the police chief of New Jersey is paid the same as Dan Weaver? We can go on....... We all make sacrifices to be in Moscow. If you want more pay, you know where to go. Phil --part1_174.1e7c230c.2c5951e3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Augh ...... Don,

You think the Mayor of New Jersey gets paid the same as Mayor Comstock? Do y= ou think the police chief of New Jersey is paid the same as Dan Weaver? We c= an go on....... We all make sacrifices to be in Moscow. If you want more pay= , you know where to go.


Phil
 --part1_174.1e7c230c.2c5951e3_boundary-- From london@moscow.com Wed Jul 30 17:38:33 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:38:33 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] re: Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article References: <12c.2f05bab3.2c58af50@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F27F489.B445DEC3@moscow.com> --------------DEC018E1377034737FF6EE57 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phil- You repeated that tired old line denigrating teachers (if you can't do, you teach)... Everytime I hear that I wonder, did the speaker ever try teaching? Did you ever stand in front of 25 squirming 8 year olds, about 25% of whom do not speak English at home (that's the reality in today's classrooms) and try to break through the TV/video/celebrity haze to educate and enlighten? Yeah, me neither. I am not a teacher. And the main reason is that I know I could not do that work. Teaching kids is about the hardest job I can envision. And teachers deserve our thanks and praise--not mean-spirited comments like yours. BL Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: > Ted, > > I do not know of one single teacher that was *forced* at gunpoint to > "choose" their profession. Granted, their might be some truth to those > who cannot do, teach. > > Phil --------------DEC018E1377034737FF6EE57 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phil-
You repeated that tired old line denigrating teachers (if you can't do, you teach)...
Everytime I hear that I wonder, did the speaker ever try teaching?
Did you ever stand in front of 25 squirming 8 year olds, about 25% of whom do not speak English at home (that's the reality in today's classrooms) and try to break through the TV/video/celebrity haze to educate and enlighten?
Yeah, me neither.
I am not a teacher.  And the main reason is that I know I could not do that work.  Teaching kids is about the hardest job I can envision.
And teachers deserve our thanks and praise--not mean-spirited comments like yours.
BL

Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote:

Ted,

  I do not know of one single teacher that was *forced* at gunpoint to "choose" their profession. Granted, their might be some truth to those who cannot do, teach.

Phil

--------------DEC018E1377034737FF6EE57-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 18:19:54 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Library Renovations - Public Internet Access In-Reply-To: <003d01c35638$8150a850$0ac70dcf@sylvester> Message-ID: <20030730171954.35582.qmail@web80604.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1056211347-1059585594=:34415 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Monica, that's great news! What I'm going to do is print out this e-mail, and give it to Ann, who works here at the public library. She also seems enthusiastic about the prospect. Perhaps you can give the library a call and ask for her when you get a chance. Thanks. In Christ, Douglas Stambler Monica Ray wrote: Douglas, Sure. It's my understanding that the library has a 15 minute "casual drop-in" time limit, and a 30-minute limit for people who sign up. We don't have a convenient way for people to sign up, but since it wouldn't be much trouble for us to set up an extra computer or two, I don't see even the 30-minute limit as a problem. We currently have two computers for public access, and we have space for two more. -- Monica at Cactus Computer ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Stambler To: vision2020@moscow.com ; webmaster@fsr.com ; cactus@turbonet.com Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:45 PM Subject: Library Renovations - Public Internet Access Hi: As you probably already know, the Moscow public library will be closing for two weeks at the beginning of August. Since the University of Idaho does not allow the public to use its computers to access the Internet, I am wondering if either Cactus Computer or First Step Internet can come up with an alternative for the general public while the public library is being renovated. I am posting this message on the Vision 2020 Forum, with the hope that maybe someone will step forward with public access to the Internet during the first half of August. Thanks. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Moscow) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1056211347-1059585594=:34415 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Monica, that's great news!  What I'm going to do is print out this e-mail, and give it to Ann, who works here at the public library.  She also seems enthusiastic about the prospect.  Perhaps you can give the library a call and ask for her when you get a chance.
 
Thanks.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler


Monica Ray <monica@turbonet.com> wrote:
Douglas,
 
    Sure.  It's my understanding that the library has a 15 minute "casual drop-in" time limit, and a 30-minute limit for people who sign up.  We don't have a convenient way for people to sign up, but since it wouldn't be much trouble for us to set up an extra computer or two, I don't see even the 30-minute limit as a problem.  We currently have two computers for public access, and we have space for two more.
 
    -- Monica at Cactus Computer
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:45 PM
Subject: Library Renovations - Public Internet Access

Hi:
 
As you probably already know, the Moscow public library will be closing for two weeks at the beginning of August.  Since the University of Idaho does not allow the public to use its computers to access the Internet, I am wondering if either Cactus Computer or First Step Internet can come up with an alternative for the general public while the public library is being renovated.
 
I am posting this message on the Vision 2020 Forum, with the hope that maybe someone will step forward with public access to the Internet during the first half of August.
 
Thanks.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Moscow)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1056211347-1059585594=:34415-- From dkaag@turbonet.com Wed Jul 30 18:32:00 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:32:00 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] re: Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: In-Reply-To: <174.1e7c230c.2c5951e3@aol.com> Message-ID: --Apple-Mail-2--325258252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Phil: Like you, I chose to live here, and knew that it would cost some sacrifices. That was O.K. with my wife and I, as we wanted to raise our daughter in a town like Moscow. New Jersey has a governor, not a mayor, and I am sure that the governor of New Jersey makes a lot more money than does the governor of Idaho. Not that size or population is the determining factor---the governor of Texas used to make $12,000 a year, and today the Texas governor's salary is still one of the lowest in the country. Ditto police chief. New Jersey doesn't have one--police power at the state level is generally under the State Attorney General, but I am sure that the police chief of a town in Jersey of a comparable size to Moscow makes more money. So long as I have a roof over my families' heads and food on the table and a way to get around ( a 30 year-old VW Camper...most of the kids at Moscow High have newer cars than I do...), I will survive. What I will not do is to sit still and let people run down my profession, the job I do, and suggest that it is not a "real" job, and because I am a teacher, somehow my university Masters degree and all of my post-graduate credits have less worth than someone else's in a non-teaching job. While it is true that, as Dale Courtney posted, "History majors are a dime a dozen", I submit to you that most of them would make lousy teachers, and have no desire to do my job. Regards, Don Kaag On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 09:52 AM, Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: > Augh ...... Don, > > You think the Mayor of New Jersey gets paid the same as Mayor > Comstock? Do you think the police chief of New Jersey is paid the same > as Dan Weaver? We can go on....... We all make sacrifices to be in > Moscow. If you want more pay, you know where to go. > > > Phil > --Apple-Mail-2--325258252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Phil: Like you, I chose to live here, and knew that it would cost some sacrifices. That was O.K. with my wife and I, as we wanted to raise our daughter in a town like Moscow. New Jersey has a governor, not a mayor, and I am sure that the governor of New Jersey makes a lot more money than does the governor of Idaho. Not that size or population is the determining factor---the governor of Texas used to make $12,000 a year, and today the Texas governor's salary is still one of the lowest in the country. Ditto police chief. New Jersey doesn't have one--police power at the state level is generally under the State Attorney General, but I am sure that the police chief of a town in Jersey of a comparable size to Moscow makes more money. So long as I have a roof over my families' heads and food on the table and a way to get around ( a 30 year-old VW Camper...most of the kids at Moscow High have newer cars than I do...), I will survive. What I will not do is to sit still and let people run down my profession, the job I do, and suggest that it is not a "real" job, and because I am a teacher, somehow my university Masters degree and all of my post-graduate credits have less worth than someone else's in a non-teaching job. While it is true that, as Dale Courtney posted, "History majors are a dime a dozen", I submit to you that most of them would make lousy teachers, and have no desire to do my job. Regards, Don Kaag On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 09:52 AM, Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: ArialAugh ...... Don, You think the Mayor of New Jersey gets paid the same as Mayor Comstock? Do you think the police chief of New Jersey is paid the same as Dan Weaver? We can go on....... We all make sacrifices to be in Moscow. If you want more pay, you know where to go. Phil --Apple-Mail-2--325258252-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 18:34:22 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] The Seven Tiers of American Society Message-ID: <20030730173422.47873.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> --0-556289308-1059586462=:47322 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The Seven Tiers of American Society 1. THE BOTTOM: people in poverty, drug addicted, alcohol addicted, suffering from the consequences of fornication. 2. THE WARDENS: people employed to help the people at the bottom. 3. THE IVORY TOWER: people who teach other people how to fail in life, as opposed to teaching them self-sufficiency. 4. THE GOVERNMENTS: presiding, but not morally governing. 5. THE CORPORATIONS: people, who collectively do only enough to get by for themselves and their families. 6. THE CHURCHES: people who are stealing from government, stealing from the rich and stealing from the middle class. 7. THE INDIVIDUAL: The last hope to change American society. What does your life mean? Are you just getting by, or are you consistently trying to improve America? God is going to change America: What part will you play? That of a giver, or that of a taker? You can change America every day, not only by being kind to others, but by recognizing that each American citizen is one person, who makes decisions that influence the larger, American society. Tell me, how does cloning a mule feed a homeless person in Detroit? Tell me, how does military research advance the cause of humanity? Tell me, how does working for a pay stub justify a wasteful economy? Tell me, is it enough to just do only enough? No, it is not. Who do you live for, if not for other people? Is this world not corrupted? Then why do we let it continue this way, every day? LET'S DISMANTLE THE SEVEN TIERS OF AMERICAN SOCIETY. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Moscow) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-556289308-1059586462=:47322 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
The Seven Tiers of American Society
 
1. THE BOTTOM: people in poverty, drug addicted, alcohol addicted, suffering from the consequences of fornication.
 
2. THE WARDENS: people employed to help the people at the bottom.
 
3. THE IVORY TOWER: people who teach other people how to fail in life, as opposed to teaching them self-sufficiency.
 
4. THE GOVERNMENTS: presiding, but not morally governing.
 
5. THE CORPORATIONS: people, who collectively do only enough to get by for themselves and their families.
 
6. THE CHURCHES: people who are stealing from government, stealing from the rich and stealing from the middle class.
 
7. THE INDIVIDUAL: The last hope to change American society.
 
 
What does your life mean?  Are you just getting by, or are you consistently trying to improve America?  God is going to change America: What part will you play?  That of a giver, or that of a taker?
 
You can change America every day, not only by being kind to others, but by recognizing that each American citizen is one person, who makes decisions that influence the larger, American society.
 
Tell me, how does cloning a mule feed a homeless person in Detroit?
Tell me, how does military research advance the cause of humanity?
Tell me, how does working for a pay stub justify a wasteful economy?
Tell me, is it enough to just do only enough?  No, it is not.
 
Who do you live for, if not for other people?  Is this world not corrupted?  Then why do we let it continue this way, every day?
 
LET'S DISMANTLE THE SEVEN TIERS OF AMERICAN SOCIETY.
 
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Moscow)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-556289308-1059586462=:47322-- From hayman@moscow.com Wed Jul 30 19:52:02 2003 From: hayman@moscow.com (hayman@moscow.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 18:52:02 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] re: Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary Message-ID: <200307301822.h6UIMMQU037797@whale2.fsr.net> I heartily concur with Bill London's observations and remarks. I would like to add a bit: Such denigrations are mitigated by spelling errors within the sentence. Bill spoke of 8 year olds. Let us not forget high school teachers, wherein often interpreting the semiotics of which colors are worn by whom and which pockets bulge with what can be as important as interpreting texts from Homer to Hawking or Euclid to Einstein. But I admit-- I teach, albeit at the university level. And a primary reason I do so is for my own learning (hey, call me a hedonist). Thus, for example, from a previous post, I was enlightened to discover that the state of New Jersey has a mayor. Warren Hayman > Phil- > You repeated that tired old line denigrating teachers (if you can't do, > you teach)... > Everytime I hear that I wonder, did the speaker ever try teaching? > Did you ever stand in front of 25 squirming 8 year olds, about 25% of > whom do not speak English at home (that's the reality in today's > classrooms) and try to break through the TV/video/celebrity haze to > educate and enlighten? > Yeah, me neither. > I am not a teacher. And the main reason is that I know I could not do > that work. Teaching kids is about the hardest job I can envision. > And teachers deserve our thanks and praise--not mean-spirited comments > like yours. > BL > > Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: > > > Ted, > > > > I do not know of one single teacher that was *forced* at gunpoint to > > "choose" their profession. Granted, their might be some truth to those > > who cannot do, teach. > > > > Phil > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu Wed Jul 30 19:31:16 2003 From: tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (TEX) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] The Seven Tiers of American Society In-Reply-To: <20030730173422.47873.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030730173422.47873.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 7. a) THE INSANE: purple. Tex tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, Douglas Stambler wrote: > The Seven Tiers of American Society > > 1. THE BOTTOM: people in poverty, drug addicted, alcohol addicted, suffering from the consequences of fornication. > > 2. THE WARDENS: people employed to help the people at the bottom. > > 3. THE IVORY TOWER: people who teach other people how to fail in life, as opposed to teaching them self-sufficiency. > > 4. THE GOVERNMENTS: presiding, but not morally governing. > > 5. THE CORPORATIONS: people, who collectively do only enough to get by for themselves and their families. > > 6. THE CHURCHES: people who are stealing from government, stealing from the rich and stealing from the middle class. > > 7. THE INDIVIDUAL: The last hope to change American society. > > > What does your life mean? Are you just getting by, or are you consistently trying to improve America? God is going to change America: What part will you play? That of a giver, or that of a taker? > > You can change America every day, not only by being kind to others, but by recognizing that each American citizen is one person, who makes decisions that influence the larger, American society. > > Tell me, how does cloning a mule feed a homeless person in Detroit? > Tell me, how does military research advance the cause of humanity? > Tell me, how does working for a pay stub justify a wasteful economy? > Tell me, is it enough to just do only enough? No, it is not. > > Who do you live for, if not for other people? Is this world not corrupted? Then why do we let it continue this way, every day? > > LET'S DISMANTLE THE SEVEN TIERS OF AMERICAN SOCIETY. > > > In Christ, > Douglas Stambler > (Moscow) > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! From dale@courtneys.us Wed Jul 30 19:34:20 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:34:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] re: Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200307301834.h6UIYUQU059675@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0092_01C3568E.84A163E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don, We agree! Just because someone has a degree in history (or in any subject) doesn't make him/her an excellent teacher. However, everyone is paid on the exact same, regardless of their merit as a teacher (just add the number of college hours+ years having taught -- regardless of whether you are an excellent or miserable teacher). Can you please explain to me how this is a good way to base teachers salaries? There are three issues here: * Just because you have a degree doesn't mean you're ipso facto a good teacher. * There are subject matters (math/science) where there is a shortage because those teachers are underpaid compared to the teacher pool available in other curriculums (e.g., "Home Economics"). * Just why do we need elementary school teachers with Masters Degrees and PhD's? The only reason is to increase their pay scale. As Jack Wenders has demonstrated in his research, Lest anyone think that I'm attacking teachers, think again. Just because I criticize a broken system doesn't mean that I'm critical of the teachers themselves. Best, Dale While it is true that, as Dale Courtney posted, "History majors are a dime a dozen", I submit to you that most of them would make lousy teachers, and have no desire to do my job. Regards, Don Kaag ------=_NextPart_000_0092_01C3568E.84A163E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don,
 
We agree! Just because someone has a degree = in history=20 (or in any subject) doesn't make him/her an excellent = teacher.=20
 
However, everyone is paid on the exact = same,=20 regardless of their merit as a teacher (just add the number of college = hours+=20 years having taught -- regardless of whether you are an excellent or = miserable=20 teacher). Can you please explain to me how this is a good way to base = teachers=20 salaries?
 
There are three issues here: =
  • Just because you have a degree doesn't mean = you're=20 ipso facto a good teacher.
  • There are subject matters = (math/science) where=20 there is a shortage because those teachers are underpaid = compared to=20 the teacher pool available in other curriculums (e.g., "Home = Economics").=20
  • Just why do we need elementary = school teachers=20 with Masters Degrees and PhD's? The only reason is to increase = their=20 pay scale. As Jack Wenders has demonstrated in his research,=20
Lest=20 anyone think that I'm attacking teachers, think again. Just because I = criticize=20 a broken system doesn't mean that I'm critical of the teachers = themselves.=20
 
Best,
Dale
 

While=20 it is true that, as Dale Courtney posted, "History majors are a dime a = dozen",=20 I submit to you that most of them would make lousy teachers, and have = no=20 desire to do my job.

Regards,

Don = Kaag
------=_NextPart_000_0092_01C3568E.84A163E0-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 19:35:25 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] The Seven Tiers of American Society In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030730183525.50606.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1417053536-1059590125=:47497 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii keep jabbering, texas, you = zero. TEX wrote: 7. a) THE INSANE: purple. Tex tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, Douglas Stambler wrote: > The Seven Tiers of American Society > > 1. THE BOTTOM: people in poverty, drug addicted, alcohol addicted, suffering from the consequences of fornication. > > 2. THE WARDENS: people employed to help the people at the bottom. > > 3. THE IVORY TOWER: people who teach other people how to fail in life, as opposed to teaching them self-sufficiency. > > 4. THE GOVERNMENTS: presiding, but not morally governing. > > 5. THE CORPORATIONS: people, who collectively do only enough to get by for themselves and their families. > > 6. THE CHURCHES: people who are stealing from government, stealing from the rich and stealing from the middle class. > > 7. THE INDIVIDUAL: The last hope to change American society. > > > What does your life mean? Are you just getting by, or are you consistently trying to improve America? God is going to change America: What part will you play? That of a giver, or that of a taker? > > You can change America every day, not only by being kind to others, but by recognizing that each American citizen is one person, who makes decisions that influence the larger, American society. > > Tell me, how does cloning a mule feed a homeless person in Detroit? > Tell me, how does military research advance the cause of humanity? > Tell me, how does working for a pay stub justify a wasteful economy? > Tell me, is it enough to just do only enough? No, it is not. > > Who do you live for, if not for other people? Is this world not corrupted? Then why do we let it continue this way, every day? > > LET'S DISMANTLE THE SEVEN TIERS OF AMERICAN SOCIETY. > > > In Christ, > Douglas Stambler > (Moscow) > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1417053536-1059590125=:47497 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
keep jabbering, texas, you = zero.

TEX <tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> wrote:

7.
a) THE INSANE: purple.

Tex
tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, Douglas Stambler wrote:

> The Seven Tiers of American Society
>
> 1. THE BOTTOM: people in poverty, drug addicted, alcohol addicted, suffering from the consequences of fornication.
>
> 2. THE WARDENS: people employed to help the people at the bottom.
>
> 3. THE IVORY TOWER: people who teach other people how to fail in life, as opposed to teaching them self-sufficiency.
>
> 4. THE GOVERNMENTS: presiding, but not morally governing.
>
> 5. THE CORPORATIONS: people, who collectively do only enough to get by for themselves and their families.
>
> 6. THE CHURCHES: people who are stealing from government, stealing from the rich and stealing from the middle class.
>
> 7. THE INDIVIDUAL: The la! st hope to change American society.
>
>
> What does your life mean? Are you just getting by, or are you consistently trying to improve America? God is going to change America: What part will you play? That of a giver, or that of a taker?
>
> You can change America every day, not only by being kind to others, but by recognizing that each American citizen is one person, who makes decisions that influence the larger, American society.
>
> Tell me, how does cloning a mule feed a homeless person in Detroit?
> Tell me, how does military research advance the cause of humanity?
> Tell me, how does working for a pay stub justify a wasteful economy?
> Tell me, is it enough to just do only enough? No, it is not.
>
> Who do you live for, if not for other people? Is this world not corrupted? Then why do we let it continue this way, every day?
>
> LET'S DISMANTLE THE SEVEN TIERS OF AMERICAN SOCIETY.
>
>
> In Christ,
> Douglas Stambler
> (Moscow)
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1417053536-1059590125=:47497-- From dale@courtneys.us Wed Jul 30 19:40:02 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:40:02 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] The Seven Tiers of American Society In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200307301840.h6UIeCQU070287@whale2.fsr.net> > 7. > a) THE INSANE: purple. B) THE INANE: greasy, grimy ponytails. Best, Dale Courtney From dale@courtneys.us Wed Jul 30 19:46:47 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:46:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] re: Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary In-Reply-To: <200307301822.h6UIMMQU037797@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <200307301846.h6UIkvQU083328@whale2.fsr.net> > Bill spoke of 8 year olds. Let us not forget high school > teachers, wherein often interpreting the semiotics of which > colors are worn by whom and which pockets bulge with what can > be as important as interpreting texts from Homer to Hawking > or Euclid to Einstein. Ah! I forgot: the need to figure out which are gang colors, who is carrying a weapon, and how to "take down" a threatening student! I *knew* those classes in "education" were useful for something! Best, Dale Courtney From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 19:48:19 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] The Seven Tiers of American Society In-Reply-To: <200307301840.h6UIeCQU070287@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <20030730184819.2097.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com> --0-523453578-1059590899=:736 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii HAW! HAW! Dale Courtney, stooping to unforeseen lows on the forum... You're still not a Christian, Dale! No matter how much you pretend. Anyway, one thing the Mormons do have in common with the Christ church CULT is that they both just seem to dislike the long hair thing. But I tell you, better to have long hair than TO SEXUALLY ABUSE YOUNG MEN AT A SATANIC CULT PLACE like Doug Wilson does. And, better to be perceived as "insane" (TEX), than to work at a radio station (KUOI) that plays songs in the late hours THAT ENCOURAGES MEN TO RAPE WOMEN. (just you listen to that garbage after 10 p.m.) all the best, douglas stambler Dale Courtney wrote: > 7. > a) THE INSANE: purple. B) THE INANE: greasy, grimy ponytails. Best, Dale Courtney _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-523453578-1059590899=:736 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
HAW! HAW!  Dale Courtney, stooping to unforeseen lows on the forum...  You're still not a Christian, Dale!  No matter how much you pretend.
 
Anyway, one thing the Mormons do have in common with the Christ church CULT is that they both just seem to dislike the long hair thing.  But I tell you, better to have long hair than TO SEXUALLY ABUSE YOUNG MEN AT A SATANIC CULT PLACE like Doug Wilson does.
 
And, better to be perceived as "insane" (TEX), than to work at a radio station (KUOI) that plays songs in the late hours THAT ENCOURAGES MEN TO RAPE WOMEN. (just you listen to that garbage after 10 p.m.)
 
all the best,
douglas stambler

Dale Courtney <dale@courtneys.us> wrote:
> 7.
> a) THE INSANE: purple.

B) THE INANE: greasy, grimy ponytails.

Best,
Dale Courtney

_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-523453578-1059590899=:736-- From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Wed Jul 30 20:04:03 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:04:03 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Heat wave and power use Message-ID: In my un air-conditioned apartment, I currently have 4 fans going full-time, 2 of them just for my cat. I'm just curious about how much power I'm using. Is breaking down and buying a small air-conditioner more sensible? Or are fans power friendly? Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 20:20:18 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] The Seven Tiers of American Society In-Reply-To: <200307301917.h6UJH6QU040757@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <20030730192018.11462.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1426457334-1059592818=:9955 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii i think that the gun from your military years is firmly lodged in your a**. Dale Courtney wrote:I think your "condition" makes you focus on nouns and not on adjectives. Ziprasidone or Geodon may help. Best, Dale --------------------------------- From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:ccm_moscow@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, 30 July, 2003 11:48 To: Dale Courtney; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The Seven Tiers of American Society HAW! HAW! Dale Courtney, stooping to unforeseen lows on the forum... You're still not a Christian, Dale! No matter how much you pretend. Anyway, one thing the Mormons do have in common with the Christ church CULT is that they both just seem to dislike the long hair thing. But I tell you, better to have long hair than TO SEXUALLY ABUSE YOUNG MEN AT A SATANIC CULT PLACE like Doug Wilson does. And, better to be perceived as "insane" (TEX), than to work at a radio station (KUOI) that plays songs in the late hours THAT ENCOURAGES MEN TO RAPE WOMEN. (just you listen to that garbage after 10 p.m.) all the best, douglas stambler Dale Courtney wrote: > 7. > a) THE INSANE: purple. B) THE INANE: greasy, grimy ponytails. Best, Dale Courtney _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1426457334-1059592818=:9955 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
i think that the gun from your military years is firmly lodged in your a**.

Dale Courtney <dale@courtneys.us> wrote:
I think your "condition" makes you focus on nouns and not on adjectives.
 
Ziprasidone or Geodon may help.
 
Best,
Dale
 

From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:ccm_moscow@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 30 July, 2003 11:48
To: Dale Courtney; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The Seven Tiers of American Society

HAW! HAW!  Dale Courtney, stooping to unforeseen lows on the forum...  You're still not a Christian, Dale!  No matter how much you pretend.
 
Anyway, one thing the Mormons do have in common with the Christ church CULT is that they both just seem to dislike the long hair thing.  But I tell you, better to have long hair than TO SEXUALLY ABUSE YOUNG MEN AT A SATANIC CULT PLACE like Doug Wilson does.
 
And, better to be perceived as "insane" (TEX), than to work at a radio station (KUOI) that plays songs in the late hours THAT ENCOURAGES MEN TO RAPE WOMEN. (just you listen to that garbage after 10 p.m.)
 
all the best,
douglas stambler

Dale Courtney <dale@courtneys.us> wrote:
> 7.
> a) THE INSANE: purple.

B) THE INANE: greasy, grimy ponytails.

Best,
Dale Courtney

_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1426457334-1059592818=:9955-- From ddouglas@pacsim.com Wed Jul 30 20:29:10 2003 From: ddouglas@pacsim.com (David Douglas) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:29:10 -0400 Subject: [Vision2020] Heat wave and power use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001a01c356d0$dbe8cfc0$e1e10e0a@LATITUDECPT5> For this dry climate, a swamp (evaporative) cooler will work quite well as an area cooler. They are cheaper and don't require window mounting. We bought one at home depot (or whatever McBuilding supply store that is) in Lewiston last year. -- David Douglas -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Carl Westberg Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 3:04 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Heat wave and power use In my un air-conditioned apartment, I currently have 4 fans going full-time, 2 of them just for my cat. I'm just curious about how much power I'm using. Is breaking down and buying a small air-conditioner more sensible? Or are fans power friendly? Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From FCS@Moscow.com Wed Jul 30 20:42:43 2003 From: FCS@Moscow.com (Mark Seman) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:42:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Heat wave and power use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fans will help you feel cooler with the same air temp and use about 200 +/- watts each. A/C will actually take heat out of the air and blow it around with 1500 +/- watts. The a/c blowing on you (or cats) will feel much cooler. How comfortable do you need to be? Would a block of ice in front of the fan suffice? I observed yesterday when I came home from work that the indoor temp was 80 while outdoors was 100. No air conditioning - shade trees (planted years earlier), open windows at night / shut during day (last night's outdoor temp was 50 @ 4am), insulation in walls and ceiling, and masonry thermal mass in a remodeled 2000sf 1 1/2 story house. 1 dog & 3 cats, slabbed-out on the kitchen's vinyl floor for conductive cooling. Mark *** ***** *** Mark & Heather Seman Full Circle Studios 828 South Washington, Suite B Moscow, Idaho 83843 v 208-883-3276 f 208-883-0112 FCS@Moscow.com -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Carl Westberg Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 12:04 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Heat wave and power use In my un air-conditioned apartment, I currently have 4 fans going full-time, 2 of them just for my cat. I'm just curious about how much power I'm using. Is breaking down and buying a small air-conditioner more sensible? Or are fans power friendly? Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 30 21:01:57 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:01:57 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article Message-ID: Dale et. al. To answer your question at the bottom of your post, I should point out I do not own property, so I do not directly pay property taxes, though in other ways I must pay for these taxes because rent and other costs get tied to property tax rates. But "wise use" of taxes is a matter of opinion of course. I think that to truly attract the best and brightest to the nobel profession of teaching, which deserves far more respect than it appears to get in some circles, a high salary is appropriate. I am inclined to agree with you though that the system has problems in not rewarding the best teachers sufficiently based on performance. My anecdotal experience in the public school system led me to conclude the system does allow sub-par teachers to continue teaching. Still, as everyone knows who honestly looks at the options, the best and brightest at our universities who consider their financial future, do NOT seriously consider teaching in the K-12 public schools as a path to financial success. You might address this last point if you so chose! Ted >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher >salary article >Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:54:52 -0700 > >Ted writes: > > > Let' get to the heart of this argument: > > In annualizing teachers pay the point is to show what they > > really could make if they worked a full 12 months compared to > > other professions that must work > > 12 months out of the year for their income. But there are > > many jobs where you can advance your career and income > > without being forced to take time off to take courses. This > > is where your annualizing of teacher pay from 10 to 12 months > > to compare their profession with other professions who must > > work 12 months breaks down. In effect when you annualize > > teachers pay, you are assuming they always could work 12 > > months at a certain rate of pay. But the 2 months off are > > not always in > > reality a time when they could be working a job earning > > income: to consider summer school course work as an income > > earning "job" is not accurate. I will state again, many > > other professions offer advancement and pay increases without > > a period of "off time" with no pay that is mandatory for > > advancement in that profession. So your annualizing of > > teachers pay leads you to inflate their income, and make a > > misleading comparison of their profession with many others. > >Ted, > >First, they teach < 180 days/year. You cannot count the entire time that >they have off during the summer as "a wash". They *do* have the opportunity >to do other things for more income. If they didn't, then I'd agree with >your >points. But they *do* -- and when you do salary calculations, you *must* >take opportunity costs into consideration. > >BTW, it's not *me* who decided this is the right way to do salary >normalization. All economists that I know of, when looking at total cost, >take the summer months into consideration. For instance, see this economic >evaluation done by the "Education Next" foundation >(http://www.educationnext.org/20033/71.html) -- they have an entire section >dealing with "Summers Off" (and I think answer your objection). > >Bottom line: the Summers off cannot be ignored when you realize that >teachers are paid $76k/9 months! > > > I understand you have pointed out that teachers can take > > course work that has nothing to do with their specialty to > > satisfy requirements for advancement, which seems the wrong > > approach to maximizing teacher performance in their > > specialty. But they still must take courses of some sort to advance. > >Yes, but the entire incentive system is upside down -- and people *do* act >according to the incentives given. We're giving teachers a *big* incentive >(get more pay!) but with the easiest course (in *any* subject!). > >Finally, one question for you -- how do you feel about paying (from your >property taxes) for 77% of all MSD teachers to be at the top of the salary >grid? Does *that* seem like a wise use of taxpayers funds? > >Best, >Dale > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 21:08:29 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Doug Wilson Has Finally Shut-Up! Message-ID: <20030730200829.46683.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com> --0-78288989-1059595709=:44381 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii And that's the ONLY reason why I joined this forum in the first place: To make sure that Doug Wilson didn't continue to expound his twistedness on this forum. The man is a criminal, and criminals need to be exposed and jailed. In Christ, Douglas Stambler --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-78288989-1059595709=:44381 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
And that's the ONLY reason why I joined this forum in the first place: To make sure that Doug Wilson didn't continue to expound his twistedness on this forum.  The man is a criminal, and criminals need to be exposed and jailed.
 
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-78288989-1059595709=:44381-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jul 30 21:08:40 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:08:40 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] re: Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article Message-ID: Phil et. al. Thanks for the feedback. Maybe I missed something in this discussion. But all that I posted about concerning teaching recently just had to do with how to calculate precisely what teachers really earn in the "government" schools, as some critics on this list like to call them. And on that subject, I have posted before on this list asking how many of the best and brightest at our universities look at their maximum potential earnings as an engineer, computer scientist, doctor, lawyer, architect or statistician, and decide based on potential income to instead teach in the K-12 public school system? Not many that I have heard of! Only those who are not motivated by getting rich, perhaps? Ted >From: Bill London >Reply-To: london@moscow.com >To: Cjsnightclub@aol.com >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] re: Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher >salary article >Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:38:33 -0700 > >Phil- >You repeated that tired old line denigrating teachers (if you can't do, >you teach)... >Everytime I hear that I wonder, did the speaker ever try teaching? >Did you ever stand in front of 25 squirming 8 year olds, about 25% of >whom do not speak English at home (that's the reality in today's >classrooms) and try to break through the TV/video/celebrity haze to >educate and enlighten? >Yeah, me neither. >I am not a teacher. And the main reason is that I know I could not do >that work. Teaching kids is about the hardest job I can envision. >And teachers deserve our thanks and praise--not mean-spirited comments >like yours. >BL > >Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: > > > Ted, > > > > I do not know of one single teacher that was *forced* at gunpoint to > > "choose" their profession. Granted, their might be some truth to those > > who cannot do, teach. > > > > Phil _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From dale@courtneys.us Wed Jul 30 23:12:27 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:12:27 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200307302212.h6UMCdQU056828@whale2.fsr.net> Ted wrote: > To answer your question at the bottom of your post, I should > point out I do not own property, so I do not directly pay > property taxes, though in other ways I must pay for these > taxes because rent and other costs get tied to property tax rates. Indeed. I've heard others ignorantly say that only home owners pay property taxes -- as if the rental costs don't go up when property taxes go up. No, property taxes affect everyone -- even those who don't own property. Even the homeless are affected by property taxes. > I am inclined to agree with you though that the system has > problems in not rewarding the best teachers sufficiently > based on performance. My anecdotal experience in the public > school system led me to conclude the system does allow > sub-par teachers to continue teaching. Oh, clearly! The union contracts protect sub-par teachers; and the excellent teachers get lumped in with all of them. Recall, we base teacher pay on a) years taught and b) college credits completed. But: a. Research shows that only 4-5 years of teacher experience contributes to student learning. Experience beyond that has no payoff except in pay. b. Pedagogy credits don't contribute to learning. Advanced degrees are productive only at the secondary level and in the subject being taught. Credits are used mostly to climb the salary grid. Because there's no easy way to get rid of a teacher once he/she has "tenure" (what is it now, Don Kaag, the 5-year point?), they are along for the E-ticket ride to the end. > Still, as everyone knows who honestly looks at the options, > the best and brightest at our universities who consider their > financial future, do NOT seriously consider teaching in the > K-12 public schools as a path to financial success. However, as with *any* job, monetary remuneration isn't the *only* benefit. Stated another way -- there are benefits that are non-monetary; and that's true of any job. Best, Dale From curley@turbonet.com Wed Jul 30 23:48:00 2003 From: curley@turbonet.com (Mike Curley) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:48:00 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] school board kudos Message-ID: <200307302238.h6UMcJu9091480@mx.fsr.net> Quietly last Tuesday (7/22) at the annual meeting, Moscow School District Board of Trustees members Dr. Terri Schneider and then-chairwoman Brenda Richards stepped down from their posts, having not sought re- election. I take this moment of your time to congratulate Terri and Brenda on their exemplary service to the district, parents and students, and to the community. During their tenure there were many divisive, contentious issues presented to the Board. Brenda and Terri were diligent, thoughtful, organized, compassionate, and yet businesslike and professional in their service. It was a pleasure to serve with them for a time and I wish them well as they "retire" (at least for now) from public service. They spent countless hours in telephone, email, and personal communication with district patrons. If you appreciated their dedication as much as I, please send your own personal "thank yous" to them. Terri and Brenda--thank you; and best regards to you both. Mike Curley From petew@completebbs.com Thu Jul 31 01:17:57 2003 From: petew@completebbs.com (Peter Willard) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:17:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] The Seven Tiers of American Society In-Reply-To: <20030730173422.47873.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030730165028.00a9b9a0@mail.completebbs.com> --=======6135511E======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-583E1239; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 10:34 AM 7/30/03 -0700, Douglas Stambler wrote: >Tell me, how does cloning a mule feed a homeless person in Detroit? Well, if a fellow has a mule, he should set his sights on growing some corn, rutabagas and tobacky and then he can get back to his fiddling and evasion of the revenue men, if that's what you're driving at, but that's just common sense. Maybe the only way to get these slick politicians to let a fellow have his mule back is by telling them it's another new-fangled from the scientific laboratories. You know, Progress! --=======6135511E======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-583E1239 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 7/24/03 --=======6135511E=======-- From dkaag@turbonet.com Thu Jul 31 01:40:07 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:40:07 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Teacher merit pay... Message-ID: <88DE8422-C2EF-11D7-8097-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Dale: The tenure point is three years. And tenure, as it is at the university level, is essential to academic freedom, to protect teachers from arbitrary firing by administrators and/or unfair witch hunts by parents. I agree that some method must be found to get rid of "dead wood" teachers. In one case, a teacher transferred from the high school to the junior high and assigned to teach World History to 7th graders. Although the teachers' certification covered History, they hadn't taught in the field in 25 years. They were not prepared to teach the subject, nor were they able to do an adequate job in the classroom. As a department, we felt sorry for the individual, and tried to help with advice and materials. My patience was at an end, however, at the beginning of the next school year, when the teacher showed up no better prepared to teach than when they were transferred to the junior high. They should have spent the summer "getting smart' in their subject and developing curriculum to use in the classroom, but they didn't. The teacher was, very frankly, awful. Everyone, teachers, administrators, students, parents... knew this. It still took three years of counseling, retraining, etc., to get rid of them, as per the SOP. Alternatively, you are not going to get good teachers to dedicate their lives to their craft if you don't give them a career path. If they know that as soon as they get established---start a family, buy a house, get involved in the community---they are going to be tossed away like a disposable napkin, you will get precious few takers. There has to be some kind of upwardly-mobile career path, involving job security and increasing pay, to attract and keep good teachers. As I have indicated earlier, I am personally in favor of some kind of merit pay. The question is, who gets to evaluate teachers and decide who gets it? Will it be based on competence and teaching skill, or is it simply going to be the "old boy" network at work yet again? Regards, Don Kaag From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jul 31 02:32:46 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 01:32:46 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: Ted wrote: > > Is support of the death penalty characteristic of dictatorships and so > > called right wing regimes? I could say it's a right wing position. >Your > > casting of the death penalty as "left wing" reveals a bias on how you >view > > the issue, it seems. So you think the Vatican is "left wing?" That >Canada, > > Australia, France, England, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, etc. are all "left > > wing?" I am so totally bored with this simple minded linear left vs. >right > > wing scheme for analyzing politics. > Luke replied: >You''ve got a nasty bias on this issue, don't you? Ted replies: And what bias is that, may I ask? A bias against simple minded analysis? I would call this intelligence, but then perhaps you have a bias against that? Ted wrote: > > > linked to differing interpretations of one of the Ten Commandments. The > > evidence is overwhelming that such a difference of opinion in >Christianity > > does exist, is fervent and fundamental, involving millions of people who > > disagree. The point of emphasizing this disagreement over the > > interpretation of one of the Ten Commandments is to argue that indeed it >can > > be difficult for the flawed and limited human mind to gain perfect >knowledge > > of God's laws. > Luke replied: > Suppose there's a 35 mph sign somewhere in Moscow. Two men walk up, >and >one says, "Thirty-five? That's a fairly safe speed, don't you think?" Then >the other fellow replies, "Thirty-five? It doesn't say thirty-five, it says >20. Are you blind or something?" Then an argument ensues between them. But >the mere existence of a controversy doesn't make the law wrong, or >confusing. The sign still says 35, and that's still the right speed to go.. > The reason that there is a controversy over the death penalty is >really >because of man's sinfulness. Whatever God commands us not to do is what we >want to do the most. He condemns stealing, yet thievery occurs en mass >throughout the world. He condemns lying, but it is so natural for us to >deceive others, and sometimes ourselves, when it suits our purposes. He >condemns fornication, yet there are millions who either do it or tolerate >it; the same goes for adultery. And the list goes ever on. Everything >divinely forbidden is sought after, and so when God draws out a just reward >for the murderer, the world today shuns His justice and lets the slayer get >off free. > Ted replies: Luke, stay tuned! I have been doing research on biblical references and analysis regarding the death penalty (but not simple minded analysis, sorry about my bias!). Ted wrote: > > > Science is a method of gaining knowledge based on replicable experiments > > and/or data gathering using theory to make inferences from the facts, >but > > this method does not, as you state, "deny the existence of something >unless > > it can be chemically diagrammed or manipulated." If something cannot be > > chemically diagrammed or manipulated, it may not be understood in these > > terms, but why does it follow it does not exist, according to science? > > Scientific method indicates that many possibilities exist, and none can >be > > ruled out till they are examined with experiment and observation and >theory. > > Even then, many explanations for a given phenomena may still be >possible. > > What is your point? > Luke replied: > Oh, I have nothing wrong with science, but it is a tool with limited >application; you cannot make moral judgments off of scientific knowledge, >or >upon the basis of empirical probability, which is in effect what you were >doing. Ted replies: So if I use science to conclude that a chemical pollutant has a certain probability that it will kill people, and so should be avoided, the use of science in this example is invalid? Notice I am not saying that science tells us it is immoral to kill, merely that it is part of the process of finding out what does kill, and therefore what to avoid. PLease supply the quote from my text where I used science as the total basis to determine a moral or ethical rule. I do not believe I have done this. Ted _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 02:54:06 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 18:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] The Seven Tiers of American Society In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030730165028.00a9b9a0@mail.completebbs.com> Message-ID: <20030731015406.6717.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1126060413-1059616446=:5478 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii you've got a good point there, peter - glad to know ya! Peter Willard wrote:At 10:34 AM 7/30/03 -0700, Douglas Stambler wrote: >Tell me, how does cloning a mule feed a homeless person in Detroit? Well, if a fellow has a mule, he should set his sights on growing some corn, rutabagas and tobacky and then he can get back to his fiddling and evasion of the revenue men, if that's what you're driving at, but that's just common sense. Maybe the only way to get these slick politicians to let a fellow have his mule back is by telling them it's another new-fangled from the scientific laboratories. You know, Progress! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 7/24/03 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1126060413-1059616446=:5478 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
you've got a good point there, peter - glad to know ya!

Peter Willard <petew@completebbs.com> wrote:
At 10:34 AM 7/30/03 -0700, Douglas Stambler wrote:
>Tell me, how does cloning a mule feed a homeless person in Detroit?

Well, if a fellow has a mule, he should set his sights on growing some
corn, rutabagas and tobacky and then he can get back to his fiddling and
evasion of the revenue men, if that's what you're driving at, but that's
just common sense. Maybe the only way to get these slick politicians to let
a fellow have his mule back is by telling them it's another new-fangled
from the scientific laboratories. You know, Progress!

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 7/24/03

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1126060413-1059616446=:5478-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 03:29:29 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 19:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] NO LAWSUIT AGAINST LOGOS SCHOOL Message-ID: <20030731022929.8107.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1961919094-1059618569=:6931 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello: I am a dunce at legal affairs. I have been told that Logos School cannot be sued; so, I retract what I said about there being a lawsuit against that school. Thank you. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Pullman) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1961919094-1059618569=:6931 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hello:
 
I am a dunce at legal affairs.  I have been told that Logos School cannot be sued; so, I retract what I said about there being a lawsuit against that school.
 
Thank you.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Pullman)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1961919094-1059618569=:6931-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 04:35:51 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Homosexuality In The Media Message-ID: <20030731033551.65944.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> --0-406386981-1059622551=:65114 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Scott: I noticed that no one really commented on your article post regarding the all-gay high school opening in NYC. You also posted something about Wal-Mart's new anti-discrimination policy against gays and lesbians. Here's another news story link: http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20030730_1585.html Anyway, my take on sexuality in public is this: I don't think that it's appropriate for anyone to be love-making in public, I don't care who it is. But that's just my opinion. I think that discrimination against gays is a human rights issue, and not one of sexuality. And I think that gay rights groups would have more success if they treated discrimination against gays as a human rights issue. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Pullman) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-406386981-1059622551=:65114 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hi, Scott:
 
I noticed that no one really commented on your article post regarding the all-gay high school opening in NYC.  You also posted something about Wal-Mart's new anti-discrimination policy against gays and lesbians.
 
Here's another news story link:
 
 
Anyway, my take on sexuality in public is this: I don't think that it's appropriate for anyone to be love-making in public, I don't care who it is.  But that's just my opinion.
 
I think that discrimination against gays is a human rights issue, and not one of sexuality.  And I think that gay rights groups would have more success if they treated discrimination against gays as a human rights issue.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Pullman)
 
 

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-406386981-1059622551=:65114-- From skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us Wed Jul 30 23:29:00 2003 From: skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us (Stephanie Kalasz) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:29:00 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Barbara Crouch's Comments on 7/28/03 Message-ID: <93812436F60FD511A83A0002B3029EFC73158E@DCFS01> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C356E9.F97021B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C356E9.F97021B0" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C356E9.F97021B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 =20 City of Moscow Administration =20 Memo To: Mayor and City Council From: Gary J. Riedner, City Supervisor Date: 7/30/2003 Re: Barbara Richardson-Crouch's Comments to Vision 2020 on = Monday, July 28, 2003 I felt it was prudent to address information posted to Vision 2020 on = Monday by Barbara Richardson-Crouch, Latah Economic Development Council = Executive Director. 1. The University of Idaho does not "transfer more than $1 = million per year to the City of Moscow to cover police expenses, etc." The UI paid $762,000 in fiscal year 2003 as payment for the contract for police services. The UI also pays an additional $51,770 and $55,000 = respectively, for its share of 911 services and fire services. 2. The University of Idaho "also paid for =BD of the wastewater treatment plant". This is totally incorrect. The University of Idaho = pays a sewer fee, just as all ratepayers in the City of Moscow. The = Wastewater Treatment Plant upgrade was financed with revenue bonds to be paid from = fees generated from sewer rates. The UI contributed no capital funding for = the WWTP. 3. The University of Idaho "maintains all City streets located on campus". This issue is being discussed between the City and U = currently. The UI maintains these public streets as part of its street maintenance program. The UI is also allowed to regulate parking on public streets pursuant to agreement with the City. Costs associated with the = maintenance and the money collected from parking violations is being negotiated. 4. To my knowledge, the only building that has been removed from = the tax rolls by the City is the former Huggins house on 'F' Street near = the Hamilton-Lowe Aquatics Center. The City's acquisition of the Mann = Building and the 1912 Building involved the purchase of property that was = already held by property tax exempt entities, the State of Idaho Department of Employment and the Moscow School District, respectively. The City has purchased or accepted undeveloped parkland on North Polk Street, = Mountain View Road and Palouse River Drive within the past several years. I hope this clears up any questions or misconceptions. =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C356E9.F97021B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

 

City of = Moscow<= o:p>

Administration

 

Memo

To:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Mayor and City = Council

From:<= /span>=A0=A0=A0 Gary J. Riedner, City = Supervisor

Date:<= /span>=A0=A0=A0=A0 7/30/2003

Re:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Barbara = Richardson-Crouch's Comments to Vision 2020 on Monday, July 28, 2003

I felt it was prudent to address = information posted to Vision 2020 on Monday by Barbara Richardson-Crouch, Latah = Economic Development Council Executive Director.

1.       = The University of = Idaho does not "transfer more than $1 million per year to the City of = Moscow to cover police expenses, etc."=A0 The UI paid $762,000 in fiscal year 2003 as payment for the = contract for police services.=A0 The UI also = pays an additional $51,770 and $55,000 respectively, for its share of 911 = services and fire services.

2.       = The University of = Idaho "also paid for =BD of the wastewater treatment plant".=A0 This is totally incorrect.=A0 The = University of Idaho pays a sewer fee, = just as all ratepayers in the City of = Moscow.=A0 The Wastewater Treatment Plant = upgrade was financed with revenue bonds to be paid from fees generated from sewer rates.=A0 The UI contributed no = capital funding for the WWTP.

3.       = The University of = Idaho "maintains all City streets located on campus".=A0 This issue is being discussed = between the City and U currently.=A0 The UI = maintains these public streets as part of its street maintenance program.=A0 The UI is also allowed to = regulate parking on public streets pursuant to agreement with the City.=A0 Costs associated with the = maintenance and the money collected from parking violations is being = negotiated.

4.       = To my knowledge, the only building that has been removed from the tax = rolls by the City is the former Huggins house on 'F' Street near the = Hamilton-Lowe Aquatics = Center.=A0 The City's acquisition of the = Mann Building and the 1912 = Building involved the purchase of property that was already held by property tax = exempt entities, the State of Idaho Department of Employment and the = Moscow School District, = respectively.=A0 The City has purchased or = accepted undeveloped parkland on North Polk = Street, Mountain View Road and = Palouse River Drive within the past several = years.

I hope this clears up any questions or misconceptions.=A0 =

 

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------_=_NextPart_000_01C356E9.F97021B0-- From jsullivan@moscow.com Thu Jul 31 07:54:49 2003 From: jsullivan@moscow.com (JSullivan) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 23:54:49 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Viola Fire Message-ID: <000c01c35730$a33bd540$aff2f5c7@Janestas> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C356F5.F651FB50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We can be thankful for our highly trained volunteer fire department! The = fire in Viola could have been much, much worse than it was. I heard the = Larson's from Potlatch, Bennett Lumber, as well as several other groups = of men and women also came and volunteered. Makes me proud to live in this community to witness everyone pulling = together like they did today. Can you imagine our taxes if we didn't have a volunteer department? = *EECK!!!* Don't forget to donate to them next time around. We could be = looking at Mt. Baldy this next winter, instead of Moscow Mountain, if it = weren't for them! Good job, ladies and gentlemen! Janesta Sullivan ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C356F5.F651FB50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We can be thankful for our highly trained volunteer fire department! = The fire=20 in Viola could have been much, much worse than it was. I heard the = Larson=92s from=20 Potlatch, Bennett Lumber, as well as several other groups of men = and women=20 also came and volunteered.

Makes me proud to live in this community to witness everyone pulling = together=20 like they did today.

Can you imagine our taxes if we didn=92t have a volunteer department? = *EECK!!!*=20  Don=92t forget to donate to them next time around. We could be = looking at=20 Mt. Baldy this next winter, instead of Moscow Mountain, if it weren=92t = for=20 them!

Good job, ladies and gentlemen!

Janesta Sullivan

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C356F5.F651FB50-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 18:14:19 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 10:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Viola Fire - JANESTA SULLIVAN In-Reply-To: <000c01c35730$a33bd540$aff2f5c7@Janestas> Message-ID: <20030731171419.11604.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1759917093-1059671659=:9352 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Janesta: Don't you get it...God is ticked off with Latah County. That wildfire was only the beginning of what the drought-inflicted crops portend for the rest of the summer. I warned about drought in February...people didn't listen; I called people on the phone, too, and urged water conservation...people didn't listen. Who cares about the volunteer fire department - THE CURRENT OCCUPANTS OF LATAH COUNTY ARE BEING OVERTHROWN: scandal at the U of I-gnorance; Lionel Hampton dead; the end of Christ church; no snow; drought - these are all signs of the end of the modern lifestyle, so much craved in the Palouse. It's over folks, I'm telling you, the "party" is over. START PACKING YOUR BAGS. In Christ, Douglas Stambler p.s. Did you note the location of the wildfire? That is significant, too, as there is one county commissioner who owns land up there. GOD IS SENDING SIGNS, DON'T IGNORE THEM! JSullivan wrote: We can be thankful for our highly trained volunteer fire department! The fire in Viola could have been much, much worse than it was. I heard the Larson’s from Potlatch, Bennett Lumber, as well as several other groups of men and women also came and volunteered. Makes me proud to live in this community to witness everyone pulling together like they did today. Can you imagine our taxes if we didn’t have a volunteer department? *EECK!!!* Don’t forget to donate to them next time around. We could be looking at Mt. Baldy this next winter, instead of Moscow Mountain, if it weren’t for them! Good job, ladies and gentlemen! Janesta Sullivan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1759917093-1059671659=:9352 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Janesta: Don't you get it...God is ticked off with Latah County.  That wildfire was only the beginning of what the drought-inflicted crops portend for the rest of the summer.  I warned about drought in February...people didn't listen; I called people on the phone, too, and urged water conservation...people didn't listen.  Who cares about the volunteer fire department - THE CURRENT OCCUPANTS OF LATAH COUNTY ARE BEING OVERTHROWN: scandal at the U of I-gnorance; Lionel Hampton dead; the end of Christ church; no snow; drought - these are all signs of the end of the modern lifestyle, so much craved in the Palouse.  It's over folks, I'm telling you, the "party" is over.  START PACKING YOUR BAGS.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
 
p.s. Did you note the location of the wildfire?  That is significant, too, as there is one county commissioner who owns land up there.  GOD IS SENDING SIGNS, DON'T IGNORE THEM!

JSullivan <jsullivan@moscow.com> wrote:

We can be thankful for our highly trained volunteer fire department! The fire in Viola could have been much, much worse than it was. I heard the Larson’s from Potlatch, Bennett Lumber, as well as several other groups of men and women also came and volunteered.

Makes me proud to live in this community to witness everyone pulling together like they did today.

Can you imagine our taxes if we didn’t have a volunteer department? *EECK!!!*  Don’t forget to donate to them next time around. We could be looking at Mt. Baldy this next winter, instead of Moscow Mountain, if it weren’t for them!

Good job, ladies and gentlemen!

Janesta Sullivan

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1759917093-1059671659=:9352-- From predator75@moscow.com Thu Jul 31 18:27:41 2003 From: predator75@moscow.com (Dan Carscallen) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 10:27:41 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Viola Fire - JANESTA SULLIVAN References: <20030731171419.11604.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c35789$0befb220$831da13f@MOSCOW1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C3574E.5F6F6F70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doug: =20 Water concervation will make it rain? Wow, that's a new one. I don't = think it was God sending a message, I think it was a careless homeowner = who happens to be in custody. And if God was aiming for our County = Commissioner's land, he needs to do some "sighting in", because he was = way off the mark. Waiting for the next predictions (and the explaination for the failure = of the first set to come true),=20 DC ------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C3574E.5F6F6F70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Doug: 
 
Water concervation will make it rain?  Wow, that's a new = one.  I=20 don't think it was God sending a message, I think it was a careless = homeowner=20 who happens to be in custody.  And if God was aiming for our County = Commissioner's land, he needs to do some "sighting in", because he was = way off=20 the mark.
 
Waiting for the next predictions (and the explaination for the = failure of=20 the first set to come true),
 
DC
------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C3574E.5F6F6F70-- From MitchelD@sd281.k12.id.us Thu Jul 31 18:33:22 2003 From: MitchelD@sd281.k12.id.us (Mitchell, Dave) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 10:33:22 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Viola Fire - JANESTA SULLIVAN Message-ID: <95E1F60B84FCFF4E8C1316844CC6C2AB0B0530@eastside.wan.local> Doug, Are you off your meds today? DCM From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 18:33:53 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 10:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Viola Fire - response to D. Carscallen In-Reply-To: <00cc01c35789$0befb220$831da13f@MOSCOW1> Message-ID: <20030731173353.51277.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1322594801-1059672833=:50677 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii which first set of predictions, dan? the ones from June? here they are again, from my website: and yes, they did come true, very subtle though. obviously my predictions for august are not subtle at all, and will be the real test, no? ************************************************************************************************* Monday, June 02, 2003 Within three weeks from this coming Thursday, we will all be living in a world, where God has finally made His wrath known about all of the world's sins. I am predicting that within three weeks from this Thursday - June 5th, 2003, the Lord will make an adjustment in every human being's reality, so that we know once and for all that only the Lord gives us justice. What does this mean for you? It depends who you are. If you are a person who has sinned much and helped others very little, then it's likely that God will make His presence felt inside of you and around you in a very substantial way. ******************************************************************************* There have been various, widespread natural indications that this prediction has come true. There has also been a total increase in the number of war-related deaths, worldwide. In Christ, Douglas Stambler Doug: Water concervation will make it rain? Wow, that's a new one. I don't think it was God sending a message, I think it was a careless homeowner who happens to be in custody. And if God was aiming for our County Commissioner's land, he needs to do some "sighting in", because he was way off the mark. Waiting for the next predictions (and the explaination for the failure of the first set to come true), DC --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1322594801-1059672833=:50677 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
which first set of predictions, dan?  the ones from June?
 
here they are again, from my website: and yes, they did come true, very subtle though. obviously my predictions for august are not subtle at all, and will be the real test, no?
*************************************************************************************************
Monday, June 02, 2003

Within three weeks from this coming Thursday, we will all be living in a world, where God has finally made His wrath known about all of the world's sins. I am predicting that within three weeks from this Thursday - June 5th, 2003, the Lord will make an adjustment in every human being's reality, so that we know once and for all that only the Lord gives us justice. What does this mean for you? It depends who you are. If you are a person who has sinned much and helped others very little, then it's likely that God will make His presence felt inside of you and around you in a very substantial way.
*******************************************************************************
 
There have been various, widespread natural indications that this prediction has come true.  There has also been a total increase in the number of war-related deaths, worldwide.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler

Doug: 
 
Water concervation will make it rain?  Wow, that's a new one.  I don't think it was God sending a message, I think it was a careless homeowner who happens to be in custody.  And if God was aiming for our County Commissioner's land, he needs to do some "sighting in", because he was way off the mark.
 
Waiting for the next predictions (and the explaination for the failure of the first set to come true),
 
DC

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1322594801-1059672833=:50677-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 18:54:16 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 10:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Viola Fire - response to D. Mitchell In-Reply-To: <95E1F60B84FCFF4E8C1316844CC6C2AB0B0530@eastside.wan.local> Message-ID: <20030731175416.62839.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1462912591-1059674056=:62790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii TRY TALKING ABOUT JESUS IN PUBLIC SCHOOL, DAVE. IT JUST MIGHT SALVAGE YOUR ALREADY MISERABLE CAREER THERE. "Mitchell, Dave" wrote: Doug, Are you off your meds today? DCM _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1462912591-1059674056=:62790 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
TRY TALKING ABOUT JESUS IN PUBLIC SCHOOL, DAVE.  IT JUST MIGHT SALVAGE YOUR ALREADY MISERABLE CAREER THERE.

"Mitchell, Dave" <MitchelD@sd281.k12.id.us> wrote:

Doug,
Are you off your meds today?
DCM

_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1462912591-1059674056=:62790-- From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Thu Jul 31 19:03:31 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:03:31 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] School Budget Message-ID: <169.22173239.2c5ab3f3@aol.com> --part1_169.22173239.2c5ab3f3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Don: These are approximate numbers: School Budget: $16,000,000 Current approximate population of Moscow: 16,000 (this is every man, woman and child) Does not take a math major to see it is a thousand a head. There surely isn't 16,000 workers in Moscow. Take that to New Jersey numbers. Phil --part1_169.22173239.2c5ab3f3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Don:

These are approximate numbers:
School Budget: $16,000,000
Current approximate population of Moscow: 16,000 (this is every man, woman a= nd child)

Does not take a math major to see it is a thousand a head. There surely isn'= t 16,000 workers in Moscow. Take that to New Jersey numbers.

Phil
 --part1_169.22173239.2c5ab3f3_boundary-- From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Thu Jul 31 19:22:50 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:22:50 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] University dollars Message-ID: <11.16677b54.2c5ab87a@aol.com> --part1_11.16677b54.2c5ab87a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How the University shows love to this city and community. Are you aware that the football game between Boise and Idaho is supposed to "swap" from city to city so each city gets a financial boost? Are you aware that Moscow gets "skipped" regularly? Love? Are you also aware that the game between UI and WSU is going to be held in Seattle? Where is the financial love for the community? Also, both Universities speak of "hurting financially." Doesn't common sense say "have the game in town?" Help the town that is also hurting financially? Instead - they take the dollars out of the community. Each University apparently doesn't care about the communities for which they are housed. We all must stop kissing their butts, as their actions show they do not care about us. Phil --part1_11.16677b54.2c5ab87a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How the University shows love to this city and communi= ty.

Are you aware that the football game between Boise and Idaho is supposed to=20= "swap" from city to city so each city gets a financial boost? Are you aware=20= that Moscow gets "skipped" regularly? Love? Are you also aware that the game= between UI and WSU is going to be held in Seattle? Where is the financial l= ove for the community? Also, both Universities speak of "hurting financially= ." Doesn't common sense say "have the game in town?" Help the town that is a= lso hurting financially? Instead - they take the dollars out of the communit= y. Each University apparently doesn't care about the communities for which t= hey are housed. We all must stop kissing their butts, as their actions show=20= they do not care about us.

Phil --part1_11.16677b54.2c5ab87a_boundary-- From timlohr@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 19:42:26 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Job Exports Imperil U.S. Programmers Message-ID: <20030731184226.11158.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, Even more on the wonders of what Corporate types call "free"(as opposed to fair)trade. TL Job Exports Imperil U.S. Programmers > Sun Jul 13, 2:16 PM ET > By RACHEL KONRAD, AP Business Writer > SAN JOSE, Calif. - Peter Kerrigan encouraged friends > to move to Silicon Valley throughout the 1980s and > '90s, wooing them with tales of lucrative jobs in a > burgeoning industry. > > > But he lost his network engineering job at a major > telecommunications company in August 2001 and > remains unemployed. Now 43, the veteran programmer is urging his 18-year-old nephew to stay in suburban Chicago and is discouraging him from pursuing degrees in computer science or engineering. > > "I told him, 'Unless you're planning to do this as > a path to technical sales, don't do it,'" said > Kerrigan, who lives in Oakland. "He won't be able to have a career designing and building stuff because all those jobs have moved to India." > > Like many unemployed programmers, Kerrigan blames > the sour labor market on offshore outsourcing; the > migration of tech jobs to relatively low-paid > contractors or locally hired employees in India, > China, Russia and other developing countries. > > The hemorrhaging of tens of thousands of technology > jobs in recent years to cheaper workers abroad is > already a fact of life; as inevitable, U.S. > executives say, as the 1980s migration of Rust Belt > manufacturing jobs to Southeast Asia and Latin > America. > > But a new wave of technology outsourcing; > involving tasks that involve greater skills; > could be cutting to the industry's bone, threatening > to prolong the three-year U.S. economic downturn. > > Some who oppose the trend, which such industry > stalwarts as Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Dell and > Microsoft are embracing, believe it could even usher in the end of American domination in technology. > > "We're giving countries like China and India the > support they need to build up their technology > industries, and the result could disadvantage us in > the long run," said Phil Friedman, an electrical > engineer and chief executive of New York-based > Computer Generated Solutions, a 1,200-employee > software company that targets the apparel industry. > > "We outsourced electronics manufacturing. We're > closing steel mills. Every week, 400,000 people file > for new unemployment claims," said Friedman, a > 54-year-old Ukrainian native who immigrated in 1976. > "At the same time, we're shipping tech jobs offshore; it's a shortsighted approach and cheats the > American work force." > > Cost-conscious executives have been shifting > lower-level tech jobs in data entry and systems > support abroad to cheaper labor markets for more > than a decade. But now they are exporting highly paid, highly skilled positions in software development; jobs that have been considered intrinsic to Silicon Valley and tech hubs such as Seattle; Boston; and Austin, Texas. > > Critics say it's the equivalent of exporting not > just the automobile industry's assembly line jobs; > but the core engineering and car design jobs, too. > > Roughly 27,000 technology jobs moved overseas in > 2000, according to a November study by Forrester > Research. It predicts that number will mushroom to > 472,000 by 2015 if companies continue to farm out > computer work at today's frenzied pace. > > According to Forrester, companies in the United > States and Europe will spend 28 percent of their > information technology budgets on overseas work in > the next two years. > > Boeing, Dell and Motorola have opened software > development centers in Russia. Intel employs 400 > full-time Russian software research engineers and > nearly 200 others in marketing and sales, wireless > Internet access and modem projects. > > Santa Clara-based Intel entered the Russian market > with a small contract project three years ago. But > within months, the world's largest chip maker hired > all the programmers who write compiler software to > optimize the microprocessors' performance, and > opened the Russia Software Development Center in Nizhny Novgorod. > > "We intend to invest in the fastest-growing > markets, and those are India, Russia and China; that's the long-term plan," Intel spokesman Chuck Mulloy said. > > Microsoft is adding software development jobs at > its India Development Center in Hyderabad, opened in >1999 to create versions of Windows for giant corporate computers. Bill Gates said late > last year that the expansion was part of an > estimated 400 million in corporate investments in the subcontinent. > > > On its corporate Web site, Microsoft lists dozens of Hyderabad openings, many requiring five years of > experience, fluency in multiple computer languages, > and college degrees in computer science #151; far > from the hourly telemarketer jobs that financial services and insurance companies exported to the Philippines and elsewhere in the early '90s. > Some say sending those jobs abroad may cause American tech workers' wages to stagnate. > According to the nonpartisan Economic Policy > Institute, non-inflation-adjusted wages for tech > workers grew 1.7 percent between the fourth quarter > of 2001 and the fourth quarter of 2002; not enough > to keep up with the period's inflation rate of 2.2 > percent. > The average computer programmer in India costs >20 per hour in wages and benefits, compared to #36;65 >per hour for an American with a comparable degree and > experience, according to consulting firm Cap Gemini > Ernst & Young. > But executives say outsourcing offers advantages > beyond wage differences. > Jean-Marc Hauducoeur, a senior vice president at > Cincinnati-based human resources consulting firm > Convergys, said his 47,000-employee company will > employ 6,000 customer service representatives and > network engineers in India by year's end. > Convergys' average technical employee in India stays > on the job for nearly three years; more than > double the U.S. average, saving tens of thousands of > dollars in recruitment and training per employee per > year, he said. > "People in India are very ambitious and very > well-educated, but they're also ready to invest in a > company, and they have less of a tendency to move > out of the company," Hauducoeur said. > Many U.S. corporate executives say they simply can't > afford to overlook foreign computer workers; > especially in India, which produces roughly 350,000 > college engineering graduates annually. > Others say the genius of American enterprise is its leaders' knack for envisioning the next big thing and workers' ability to redefine job roles and retrain. Americans pioneering developments in nanotechnology and biotech will have far more job security than simple programmers, they argue. > Bob Pryor, who heads the outsourcing practice of Cap > Gemini Ernst & Young, said it's "naive" to think > outsourcing software jobs could ruin America's tech > dominance. > "The reality is that we live in a global economy and > we compete against global players. We need to look > at where we have strategic advantage; whether it's > resources or skills," Pryor said. "It frees up > people and dollars to do much more value-added strategic things for clients." > Marcus Courtney, a former contract worker for > Microsoft and Adobe Systems and president of the > Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, said many > tech workers understand and even endorse free trade > and globalization. > They even enjoy living on the cutting edge > taking courses in advanced computer languages, > getting experience in a variety of business disciplines, and endorsing a philosophy of continuous improvement, he said. > But many find it tough to reconcile their > macro-economic outlook with their own unemployment. > "We need to move beyond the idea that individuals > can simply cope and retrain," said Courtney, whose > 275-member union is asking Congress to study and > possibly regulate offshore outsourcing. "Workers > need a voice over their economic future and a voice > against the executives making these unilateral economic decisions." > ___ > Rachel Konrad can be reached at rkonrad@ap.org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From timlohr@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 19:46:47 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] University dollars In-Reply-To: <11.16677b54.2c5ab87a@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030731184647.54818.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, It's amazing, all this constant criticism of the UI's effect on Moscow's economy. Try this. Try envisioning Moscow WITHOUT the U of I. For some reason the word "GRANGEVILLE" comes quickly to mind. Best, TL --- Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: > How the University shows love to this city and > community. > > Are you aware that the football game between Boise > and Idaho is supposed to > "swap" from city to city so each city gets a > financial boost? Are you aware > that Moscow gets "skipped" regularly? Love? Are you > also aware that the game > between UI and WSU is going to be held in Seattle? > Where is the financial love for > the community? Also, both Universities speak of > "hurting financially." > Doesn't common sense say "have the game in town?" > Help the town that is also hurting > financially? Instead - they take the dollars out of > the community. Each > University apparently doesn't care about the > communities for which they are housed. > We all must stop kissing their butts, as their > actions show they do not care > about us. > > Phil > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu Thu Jul 31 19:56:28 2003 From: tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (TEX) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] University dollars In-Reply-To: <20030731184647.54818.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030731184647.54818.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tex tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Tim Lohrmann wrote: > Visionaries, > It's amazing, all this constant criticism of > the UI's effect on Moscow's economy. > Try this. Try envisioning Moscow WITHOUT the U > of I. > For some reason the word "GRANGEVILLE" comes > quickly to mind. > Best, TL > > > > > --- Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: > > How the University shows love to this city and > > community. > > > > Are you aware that the football game between Boise > > and Idaho is supposed to > > "swap" from city to city so each city gets a > > financial boost? Are you aware > > that Moscow gets "skipped" regularly? Love? Are you > > also aware that the game > > between UI and WSU is going to be held in Seattle? > > Where is the financial love for > > the community? Also, both Universities speak of > > "hurting financially." > > Doesn't common sense say "have the game in town?" > > Help the town that is also hurting > > financially? Instead - they take the dollars out of > > the community. Each > > University apparently doesn't care about the > > communities for which they are housed. > > We all must stop kissing their butts, as their > > actions show they do not care > > about us. > > > > Phil > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From strand@pacsim.com Thu Jul 31 20:20:28 2003 From: strand@pacsim.com (Bill Strand) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:20:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] University dollars In-Reply-To: <20030731184647.54818.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001601c35798$cd436f20$edb7130a@engstrand> Tim, We started our business here because of the universities (I am a graduate of both U of I and WSU). I serve on advisory boards at both universities and my wife is employed at U of I. We hire predominately from the engineering departments here. Having said that, I don't agree with all university decisions and how they interact with the community. For example - this month the U of I decided to encourage all their employees to mail order their medications from Oregon rather than purchase via local pharmacies (up to 40% discount on their co-pay). Don't you think that affected our local pharmacies? That is our local taxes going out-of-state. Recently, the U of I attempted to put through a plan to have contract dentists come into town to handle all U of I business. You can imagine the stink that raised among the local dentists. And how about local contractors for campus construction? What is necessary is a thriving business community AND a healthy university. If property taxes continue to rise, potential faculty will take one look at that, and look other places for employment. Businesses need to consider what is best for the universities and universities need to consider what is best for the local businesses. If we get into a situation of everybody grabbing all they can carry, we all lose. Bill Strand From dkaag@turbonet.com Thu Jul 31 21:01:14 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:01:14 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] University dollars In-Reply-To: <001601c35798$cd436f20$edb7130a@engstrand> Message-ID: Bill: WHAT "new faculty"? New PhD's cruising into town and being put off by high property taxes is the least of our problems in higher education. Drive around and look at all of the homes on the market in Moscow and Pullman right now. Both UI and WSU are reeling from legislatively-mandated, draconian, funding cuts, and additionally, in UI's case, financial scandal. Both universities, driven by lack of dollars, are cutting budgets and programs, staff and faculty. (With the ludicrous exception of WSU's ill-timed attempt to expand their golf course... that is the wrong battle at the wrong time, given aquifer and budget constraints, for the wrong reasons.) Salaries and benefits have been, and will be for the immediate future, stagnant, if not reduced, which is a net income loss for all of the people employed by either university that still have reasonably-secure jobs, and that impacts every business in the Palouse region. Both universities are hemorhaging faculty that they didn't lay off, as highly-qualified individuals with marketable skills and experience see the handwriting on the wall and leave for better-paying jobs at other, out-of-state, institutions of higher learning, where their prospects are much brighter than if they tightened their belts and stayed on the Palouse. Replacing them is going to be very difficult, given what the universities can offer prospective out-of-state hires. High property taxes, while certainly a problem, are infinitesimal compared to the other problems faced by our two universities, which are virtually self-destructing under our eyes. Ask around... the morale at both institutions is pitiful. If and when the money crisis is solved by an improving economy, it will take years to rebuild both institutions back to where they were prior to the national and state financial crises we currently face, let along for them to improve. I have suggested to my friends that we have "Washington State Normal School and Agricultural Experiment Station" T-shirts commissioned to indicate WSU's new, diminished, status. For UI, I propose a line sketch of the vacant lot in Boise, superimposed on an outline of Old Main, with the caption, "UI: Good Dreams Gone Bad". Regards, Don Kaag On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 12:20 PM, Bill Strand wrote: > Tim, > > We started our business here because of the universities (I am a > graduate of both U of I and WSU). I serve on advisory boards at both > universities and my wife is employed at U of I. We hire predominately > from the engineering departments here. > > Having said that, I don't agree with all university decisions and how > they interact with the community. For example - this month the U of I > decided to encourage all their employees to mail order their > medications > from Oregon rather than purchase via local pharmacies (up to 40% > discount on their co-pay). Don't you think that affected our local > pharmacies? That is our local taxes going out-of-state. > > Recently, the U of I attempted to put through a plan to have contract > dentists come into town to handle all U of I business. You can imagine > the stink that raised among the local dentists. And how about local > contractors for campus construction? > > What is necessary is a thriving business community AND a healthy > university. If property taxes continue to rise, potential faculty will > take one look at that, and look other places for employment. > > Businesses need to consider what is best for the universities and > universities need to consider what is best for the local businesses. If > we get into a situation of everybody grabbing all they can carry, we > all > lose. > > Bill Strand > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From jdanahy@turbonet.com Thu Jul 31 21:15:09 2003 From: jdanahy@turbonet.com (John Danahy) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:15:09 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] University dollars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001201c357a0$73c6fb30$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> Recently Don wrote: Salaries and benefits have been, and will be for the immediate future, stagnant, if not reduced, which is a net income loss for all of the people employed by either university that still have reasonably-secure jobs, and that impacts every business in the Palouse region. Also, every time a city, school district, or county raises taxes, or fees, or bills, the impact is to lower income and standard of living of everyone in the community. The trick is to find the correct balance. John ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 31 21:31:01 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:31:01 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] University dollars In-Reply-To: <11.16677b54.2c5ab87a@aol.com> Message-ID: Phil (of Cjsnightclub@aol.com) stated: "Are you aware that the football game between Boise and Idaho is supposed to "swap" from city to city so each city gets a financial boost? Are you aware that Moscow gets "skipped" regularly?" I have attended viretually every home game since I started attending UI in 1992 ands long after I graduated in 1996. As far as I can remember, the UI home game was either played in the Dome or at WSU. Enlighten me (as well as others), Phil. Which UI/Bozo State games that I attended weren't played? Phil went ont to say: "Are you also aware that the game between UI and WSU is going to be held in Seattle? Where is the financial love for the community? Also, both Universities speak of "hurting financially." Doesn't common sense say "have the game in town?" Last time I was at Seawhawks Stadium (the venue for this year's UI/WSU game), it appeard to hold alot more people than either the Dome or Martin Stadium. Playing the game in a larger stadium in a city that has lots and lots of Idaho and WSU alums seems like a financially sound decision. Tom Hansen UI '96 From timlohr@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 21:31:42 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] US May Already Have Iraqi WMD Evidence Message-ID: <20030731203142.25777.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, Some interesting speculation/rumor here. TL US May Already Have Iraq's WMD's July 31,2003 By Joel Mowbray(townhall.com) As WMD hysteria reaches a frenzied pitch, comments by the head of the U.S. team searching Iraq for WMD evidence should give pause to the "Bush lied" crowd. Dr. David Kay—the 63-year-old former U.N. weapons inspector now heading up the American WMD team—recently remarked that the United States will be “starting to reveal” WMD evidence in six months. Though he was circumspect at best, Dr. Kay’s comments could indicate that U.S. investigators know quite a bit more than they have revealed thus far. Buzz inside the beltway has been intensifying in recent days that the administration may have significantly more evidence than it has publicly released, and Dr. Kay’s comments have triggered even more chatter. Some of it may be wishful thinking, but considering that some of the people doing the talking are administration officials, declarations that there are no WMDs may be premature. Why would the Bush folks keep such politically high-value information secret? Possibly because, given the sheer number of guerrilla forces present inside Iraq, U.S. investigators believe it would be foolish to leak evidence piecemeal. Sources and methods of intelligence-gathering could be “compromised”—a polite way of saying those helping us or their families could get killed—and the U.S. team's efforts could be hampered if other would-be informants hold back out of fear. And with many of Saddam’s former henchmen still around, U.S. investigators tipping their hand could make it easier for Baathist thugs to destroy evidence or sabotage discovery efforts. Not that critics of President Bush—the people who wanted to wait endlessly while U.N. inspectors played footsy with Saddam—are waiting for the canvassing to be completed before slamming the commander-in-chief. Liberal legend Teddy Kennedy (D-MA) has charged that President Bush led the country to war "under false pretenses." His colleague and presidential wannabe John Kerry (D-MA)--who voted for the war--now is retreating to the warm embrace of his liberal base, claiming that, in essence, Bush duped him into supporting the liberation of Iraq. Mincing no words, New York Times Paul Krugman stated flatly, "There is no longer any serious doubt that Bush administration officials deceived Americans into war." That there is WMD evidence inside Iraq - or possibly Iran or Syria - makes logical sense, as there are really only three WMD scenarios: 1) Saddam didn't have any WMDs, 2) Saddam destroyed everything just before the war began (or snuck it into Iran or Syria) or 3) the evidence stuck around longer than Saddam did. As Rumsfeld said before the war, “Any country on the face of the earth with an active intelligence program knows that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction.” No one argues, in fact, that Saddam didn't have active WMD programs when the U.N. inspectors left the country more than four years ago. So for the first possibility to be correct, Saddam would have had to have voluntarily ceased an operation that had been his primary obsession for some two decades and kept no records of having done so. Which leaves us with two other possibilities, either of which confirms Bush's pre-war arguments. It is possible that Saddam destroyed stockpiles and his mobile labs on the eve of war, but it is at least as plausible that he would not part with his treasures so easily. With a high street value and relative portability, though, it is also possible that Saddam sold off at least part of his stash. Or he could have used the time-honored tradition of simply hiding his arsenal. But until we have examined every last square inch of Iraq—and Syria and Iran—the entire WMD debate is premised on a hypothetical. In the end, the investigators may only find indirect evidence of WMD programs - human sources and documents - as opposed to the kind of weapons “stockpiles” for which our image-driven media salivates. A lack of camera-ready evidence could be a problem, but a mountain of documents and numerous human testimonials from Saddam's former scientists could be enough to reaffirm the obvious: Saddam had WMDs. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 31 21:35:34 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:35:34 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] University dollars In-Reply-To: <001201c357a0$73c6fb30$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> Message-ID: Greetings Visionaires - Hey! I have an idea. Why should UI bother buying anything anymore? In the manner of "Good Old School Spirit" maybe staff and faculty should volunteeer half their time, thus reducing their pay period form 80 hours to 40 hours. During the 40 hours that they aren't working, maybe they can sell pencils or candles for the school, thus dramatically boosting that sagging budget. Come on, John. Certainly you must have a few choice suggestions. Let's hear them. Tom Hansen UI '96 > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of John Danahy > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 1:15 PM > To: 'Vision2020' > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] University dollars > > > > Recently Don wrote: > Salaries and benefits have been, and will be for the > immediate future, stagnant, if not reduced, which is a net income loss > for all of the people employed by either university that still have > reasonably-secure jobs, and that impacts every business in the Palouse > region. > > Also, every time a city, school district, or county raises taxes, or > fees, or bills, the impact is to lower income and standard of living of > everyone in the community. The trick is to find the correct balance. > > John > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From strand@pacsim.com Thu Jul 31 21:40:08 2003 From: strand@pacsim.com (Bill Strand) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:40:08 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] University dollars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001b01c357a3$ee5af510$edb7130a@engstrand> Don, >From everything I have observed in my university activities, the loss in faculty has been largely the loss of open positions, retirements, etc... This financial juggling has been going on for years at WSU. Idaho is now seeing it to an even greater extent. At the same time, tenured positions are being terminated at institutions like Oregon State University. The situation is not unique to Idaho and WSU. But do the universities issues justify sending our tax dollars out of the community and out of the state? I'm glad we are helping the people of Beaverton Oregon when I need medications, but I would rather support local businesses. Bill Strand From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 31 21:49:36 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:49:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Homosexuality In The Media In-Reply-To: <20030731033551.65944.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0263_01C3576A.948A7E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just for your general information. After reading a few articles on CNN's website and an interview that was conducted on the Today Show Tuesday morning, I discovered that the Harvey Milk School in New York City is not restrictive to gay students, staff, or faculty. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Stambler Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 8:36 PM To: sdredge@yahoo.com; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Homosexuality In The Media Hi, Scott: I noticed that no one really commented on your article post regarding the all-gay high school opening in NYC. You also posted something about Wal-Mart's new anti-discrimination policy against gays and lesbians. Here's another news story link: http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20030730_1585.html Anyway, my take on sexuality in public is this: I don't think that it's appropriate for anyone to be love-making in public, I don't care who it is. But that's just my opinion. I think that discrimination against gays is a human rights issue, and not one of sexuality. And I think that gay rights groups would have more success if they treated discrimination against gays as a human rights issue. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Pullman) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_0263_01C3576A.948A7E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just for your=20 general information.  After reading a few articles on CNN's website = and an=20 interview that was conducted on the Today Show Tuesday morning, I=20 discovered that the Harvey Milk School in New York City is not = restrictive to=20 gay students, staff, or faculty.
 
Tom = Hansen
Moscow,=20 Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Douglas=20 Stambler
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 8:36 = PM
To:=20 sdredge@yahoo.com; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: = [Vision2020]=20 Homosexuality In The Media

Hi, Scott:
 
I noticed that no one really commented on your article post = regarding the=20 all-gay high school opening in NYC.  You also posted something = about=20 Wal-Mart's new anti-discrimination policy against gays and = lesbians.
 
Here's another news story link:
 
http://abc= news.go.com/wire/World/ap20030730_1585.html
 
Anyway, my take on sexuality in public is this: I don't think = that it's=20 appropriate for anyone to be love-making in public, I don't care who = it=20 is.  But that's just my opinion.
 
I think that discrimination against gays is a human rights issue, = and not=20 one of sexuality.  And I think that gay rights groups would have = more=20 success if they treated discrimination against gays as a human rights=20 issue.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Pullman)
 
 

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC=20 Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_0263_01C3576A.948A7E40-- From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jul 31 21:49:38 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:49:38 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] NO LAWSUIT AGAINST LOGOS SCHOOL In-Reply-To: <20030731022929.8107.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0267_01C3576A.958B4C70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone (especially Mr. Stambler) explain to my why a public school can be sued, but a private school can't? Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Stambler Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 7:29 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] NO LAWSUIT AGAINST LOGOS SCHOOL Hello: I am a dunce at legal affairs. I have been told that Logos School cannot be sued; so, I retract what I said about there being a lawsuit against that school. Thank you. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Pullman) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_0267_01C3576A.958B4C70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can = anyone=20 (especially Mr. Stambler) explain to my why a public school can be sued, = but a=20 private school can't?
 
Tom = Hansen
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Douglas=20 Stambler
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 7:29 = PM
To:=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] NO LAWSUIT = AGAINST LOGOS=20 SCHOOL

Hello:
 
I am a dunce at legal affairs.  I have been told that Logos = School=20 cannot be sued; so, I retract what I said about there being a lawsuit = against=20 that school.
 
Thank you.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Pullman)

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC=20 Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_0267_01C3576A.958B4C70-- From dkaag@turbonet.com Thu Jul 31 21:50:13 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:50:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] University dollars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <950AC58E-C398-11D7-B82D-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Visionaries: ...maybe a bake sale... Regards, Don Kaag On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 01:35 PM, Tom Hansen wrote: > Greetings Visionaires - > > Hey! I have an idea. Why should UI bother buying anything anymore? > In the > manner of "Good Old School Spirit" maybe staff and faculty should > volunteeer > half their time, thus reducing their pay period form 80 hours to 40 > hours. > During the 40 hours that they aren't working, maybe they can sell > pencils or > candles for the school, thus dramatically boosting that sagging budget. > > Come on, John. Certainly you must have a few choice suggestions. > Let's > hear them. > > Tom Hansen > UI '96 > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com >> [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On >> Behalf Of John Danahy >> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 1:15 PM >> To: 'Vision2020' >> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] University dollars >> >> >> >> Recently Don wrote: >> Salaries and benefits have been, and will be for the >> immediate future, stagnant, if not reduced, which is a net income loss >> for all of the people employed by either university that still have >> reasonably-secure jobs, and that impacts every business in the Palouse >> region. >> >> Also, every time a city, school district, or county raises taxes, or >> fees, or bills, the impact is to lower income and standard of living >> of >> everyone in the community. The trick is to find the correct balance. >> >> John >> >> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ >> >> >> >> _____________________________________________________ >> List services made available by First Step Internet, >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ >> > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 21:54:57 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] University dollars - the bob hoover connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030731205457.14448.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> --0-71648570-1059684897=:12506 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii maybe bob hoover can sell cookies, too, from a collapsible table in front of Albertson College in Caldwell, WHERE HE SHOULD BE WORKING AS A JANITOR... Tom Hansen wrote:Greetings Visionaires - Hey! I have an idea. Why should UI bother buying anything anymore? In the manner of "Good Old School Spirit" maybe staff and faculty should volunteeer half their time, thus reducing their pay period form 80 hours to 40 hours. During the 40 hours that they aren't working, maybe they can sell pencils or candles for the school, thus dramatically boosting that sagging budget. Come on, John. Certainly you must have a few choice suggestions. Let's hear them. Tom Hansen UI '96 > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of John Danahy > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 1:15 PM > To: 'Vision2020' > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] University dollars > > > > Recently Don wrote: > Salaries and benefits have been, and will be for the > immediate future, stagnant, if not reduced, which is a net income loss > for all of the people employed by either university that still have > reasonably-secure jobs, and that impacts every business in the Palouse > region. > > Also, every time a city, school district, or county raises taxes, or > fees, or bills, the impact is to lower income and standard of living of > everyone in the community. The trick is to find the correct balance. > > John > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-71648570-1059684897=:12506 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
maybe bob hoover can sell cookies, too, from a collapsible table in front of Albertson College in Caldwell, WHERE HE SHOULD BE WORKING AS A JANITOR...

Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com> wrote:
Greetings Visionaires -

Hey! I have an idea. Why should UI bother buying anything anymore? In the
manner of "Good Old School Spirit" maybe staff and faculty should volunteeer
half their time, thus reducing their pay period form 80 hours to 40 hours.
During the 40 hours that they aren't working, maybe they can sell pencils or
candles for the school, thus dramatically boosting that sagging budget.

Come on, John. Certainly you must have a few choice suggestions. Let's
hear them.

Tom Hansen
UI '96

> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On
> Behalf Of John Danahy
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 1:15 PM
> To: 'Vision2020'
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] University dollars
>
>
>
> Recently Don wrote:
> Salaries and ben! efits have been, and will be for the
> immediate future, stagnant, if not reduced, which is a net income loss
> for all of the people employed by either university that still have
> reasonably-secure jobs, and that impacts every business in the Palouse
> region.
>
> Also, every time a city, school district, or county raises taxes, or
> fees, or bills, the impact is to lower income and standard of living of
> everyone in the community. The trick is to find the correct balance.
>
> John
>
> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>

_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-71648570-1059684897=:12506-- From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Thu Jul 31 21:55:39 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:55:39 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Footbal game Message-ID: <38.3bb32643.2c5adc4b@aol.com> --part1_38.3bb32643.2c5adc4b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where was the Boise/UI game last year? And the year before? Phil --part1_38.3bb32643.2c5adc4b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Where was the Boise/UI game last year? And the year be= fore?

Phil
 --part1_38.3bb32643.2c5adc4b_boundary-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 21:55:48 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] NO LAWSUIT AGAINST LOGOS SCHOOL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030731205548.32447.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> --0-986578176-1059684948=:32262 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii huh? i said there's no lawsuit. as you explained some time ago, you can't sue a school, right? Tom Hansen wrote:Can anyone (especially Mr. Stambler) explain to my why a public school can be sued, but a private school can't? Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Stambler Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 7:29 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] NO LAWSUIT AGAINST LOGOS SCHOOL Hello: I am a dunce at legal affairs. I have been told that Logos School cannot be sued; so, I retract what I said about there being a lawsuit against that school. Thank you. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Pullman) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-986578176-1059684948=:32262 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
huh?  i said there's no lawsuit.  as you explained some time ago, you can't sue a school, right?

Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com> wrote:
Can anyone (especially Mr. Stambler) explain to my why a public school can be sued, but a private school can't?
 
Tom Hansen
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Stambler
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 7:29 PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] NO LAWSUIT AGAINST LOGOS SCHOOL

Hello:
 
I am a dunce at legal affairs.  I have been told that Logos School cannot be sued; so, I retract what I said about there being a lawsuit against that school.
 
Thank you.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Pullman)

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-986578176-1059684948=:32262-- From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Thu Jul 31 21:57:14 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:57:14 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Teacher merit pay... Message-ID: <1ca.e83468a.2c5adcaa@aol.com> --part1_1ca.e83468a.2c5adcaa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don, Perfect example of socialism. Or is it a small taste of communism? There is not a single other career that has a "guarantee" that you will have a job. Japan does not even have it anymore. Neither does Russia, but it is not communist anymore. The military is not a guarantee anymore. The rest of society seems to be able to handle the pressure, the politics and the uncertainty of what tomorrow may have. Guess what! They are still raising families and owning homes. Why would this segment be the only segment? Seems to me if they have a job guarantee of this magnitude they should be happy. Not bitching. Or - come on out in the real world and see how long they fare. If your a flunky and cannot advance = you are out! But, yet our school system is a "safe haven" for many. All they have to do is bite their tongue and abide by the rules for three years? Then they get a free ride for life! I have absolutely no guarantee that I will be in business next week. My first three years here was nothing but a financial blood bath. At least a teacher gets paid for those three years and has benefits. For life! In the real world, if you have a long term contract, because of the certainty and the bankability of the contract, you normally get a substantial discount. Do you not see how this should apply to teachers? Phil --part1_1ca.e83468a.2c5adcaa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don,

Perfect example of socialism. Or is it a small taste of communism? There is=20= not a single other career that has a "guarantee" that you will have a job. J= apan does not even have it anymore. Neither does Russia, but it is not commu= nist anymore. The military is not a guarantee anymore. The rest of society s= eems to be able to handle the pressure, the politics and the uncertainty of=20= what tomorrow may have. Guess what! They are still raising families and owni= ng homes. Why would this segment be the only segment? Seems to me if they ha= ve a job guarantee of this magnitude they should be happy. Not bitching. Or=20= - come on out in the real world and see how long they fare. If your a flunky= and cannot advance =3D you are out! But, yet our school system is a "safe h= aven" for many. All they have to do is bite their tongue and abide by the ru= les for three years? Then they get a free ride for life! I have absolutely n= o guarantee that I will be in business next week. My first three years here=20= was nothing but a financial blood bath. At least a teacher gets paid for tho= se three years and has benefits. For life!

In the real world, if you have a long term contract, because of the certaint= y and the bankability of the contract, you normally get a substantial discou= nt. Do you not see how this should apply to teachers?

Phil
 --part1_1ca.e83468a.2c5adcaa_boundary-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 21:59:38 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Homosexuality In The Media - Let's Talk About It In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030731205938.78997.qmail@web80604.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1738460211-1059685178=:78634 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Come on, let's talk about it. News related to gays and lesbians has been rapid fire for about 2 months now. There are big changes happening in politics regarding the legal rights of gay couples. This is probably the first time in about 30 years when gay rights issues have been so prominent in the media. Let's talk about it. In Christ, Douglas Stambler Just for your general information. After reading a few articles on CNN's website and an interview that was conducted on the Today Show Tuesday morning, I discovered that the Harvey Milk School in New York City is not restrictive to gay students, staff, or faculty. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Stambler Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 8:36 PM To: sdredge@yahoo.com; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Homosexuality In The Media Hi, Scott: I noticed that no one really commented on your article post regarding the all-gay high school opening in NYC. You also posted something about Wal-Mart's new anti-discrimination policy against gays and lesbians. Here's another news story link: http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20030730_1585.html Anyway, my take on sexuality in public is this: I don't think that it's appropriate for anyone to be love-making in public, I don't care who it is. But that's just my opinion. I think that discrimination against gays is a human rights issue, and not one of sexuality. And I think that gay rights groups would have more success if they treated discrimination against gays as a human rights issue. In Christ, Douglas Stambler (Pullman) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1738460211-1059685178=:78634 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Come on, let's talk about it.  News related to gays and lesbians has been rapid fire for about 2 months now.  There are big changes happening in politics regarding the legal rights of gay couples.  This is probably the first time in about 30 years when gay rights issues have been so prominent in the media.
 
Let's talk about it.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
 


 
Just for your general information.  After reading a few articles on CNN's website and an interview that was conducted on the Today Show Tuesday morning, I discovered that the Harvey Milk School in New York City is not restrictive to gay students, staff, or faculty.
 
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Stambler
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 8:36 PM
To: sdredge@yahoo.com; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Homosexuality In The Media

Hi, Scott:
 
I noticed that no one really commented on your article post regarding the all-gay high school opening in NYC.  You also posted something about Wal-Mart's new anti-discrimination policy against gays and lesbians.
 
Here's another news story link:
 
 
Anyway, my take on sexuality in public is this: I don't think that it's appropriate for anyone to be love-making in public, I don't care who it is.  But that's just my opinion.
 
I think that discrimination against gays is a human rights issue, and not one of sexuality.  And I think that gay rights groups would have more success if they treated discrimination against gays as a human rights issue.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(Pullman)
 
 

Do you Yahoo!?
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Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1738460211-1059685178=:78634-- From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Thu Jul 31 21:59:05 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:59:05 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] re: Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Message-ID: <12d.2e7e58f2.2c5add19@aol.com> --part1_12d.2e7e58f2.2c5add19_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don, as you state: > "New Jersey has a governor, not a mayor, and I am sure that the governor=20 > of New Jersey makes a lot more money than does the governor of Idaho.=A0=20 > Not that size or population is the determining factor---" >=20 > Don - Face true economics. Even History will show you Rome paid it's=20 > Governors based upon their ability to collect taxes. >=20 > No one is running down your profession. I wish I was a teacher. I would LO= VE=20 > all the time off. A guaranteed check. Love to have all the medical=20 > Insurance. Love to have the socialistic attitude of the Union fighting for= me. I am=20 > sure you are a wonderful teacher, Don. By the way, I too drive an older ca= r=20 > than most students. >=20 > Phil --part1_12d.2e7e58f2.2c5add19_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don,

as you state:
"New Jersey has a governor, not= a mayor, and I am sure that the governor
of New Jersey makes a lot more money than does the governor of Idaho.=A0 Not that size or population is the determining factor---"

Don - Face true economics. Even History will show you Rome paid it's Gov= ernors based upon their ability to collect taxes.

No one is running down your profession. I wish I was a teacher. I would LOVE= all the time off. A guaranteed check. Love to have all the medical Insuranc= e. Love to have the socialistic attitude of the Union fighting for me. I am=20= sure you are a wonderful teacher, Don. By the way, I too drive an older car=20= than most students.

Phil

 --part1_12d.2e7e58f2.2c5add19_boundary-- From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Thu Jul 31 22:00:39 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:00:39 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] re: Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary art... Message-ID: <134.234ee291.2c5add77@aol.com> --part1_134.234ee291.2c5add77_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill - it is not meant to be "mean spirited." It is just that so many teachers think they could be making a lot more doing something else. Their attitude is, because they have those thoughts they should be paid what they really think they are worth. But there are no dollars to pay them. So maybe they really need to go try and do that something else. There is always exceptions to the rules. There are very few business owners in this town that make what the teachers make and we pay a lot more taxes than what the teachers pay. Most of us work a hell of a lot more hours than a teacher works. So - like I said before, they elected to be a teacher. They elect to live here. Just like me. Just like you. Your choice. My choice. If you want to pay them more you can sign your check over to the union and ask that it be distributed amongst the teachers. You wanna pay them more? You pay them more. Phil --part1_134.234ee291.2c5add77_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill - it is not meant to be "mean spirited." It is ju= st that so many teachers think they could be making a lot more doing somethi= ng else. Their attitude is, because they have those thoughts they should be=20= paid what they really think they are worth. But there are no dollars to pay=20= them. So maybe they really need to go try and do that something else. There=20= is always exceptions to the rules.

There are very few business owners in this town that make what the teachers=20= make and we pay a lot more taxes than what the teachers pay. Most of us work= a hell of a lot more hours than a teacher works. So - like I said before, t= hey elected to be a teacher. They elect to live here. Just like me. Just lik= e you. Your choice. My choice. If you want to pay them more you can sign you= r check over to the union and ask that it be distributed amongst the teacher= s. You wanna pay them more? You pay them more.

Phil
 --part1_134.234ee291.2c5add77_boundary-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 22:01:41 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Footbal game In-Reply-To: <38.3bb32643.2c5adc4b@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030731210141.17741.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> --0-948197817-1059685301=:17635 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii i heard that the football game used to be on your front lawn, phil, but that you trespassed both teams because someone wanted to drink Gatorade instead of the booze you were hawking out of your den of sin... -douglas stambler Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: Where was the Boise/UI game last year? And the year before? Phil --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-948197817-1059685301=:17635 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
i heard that the football game used to be on your front lawn, phil, but that you trespassed both teams because someone wanted to drink Gatorade instead of the booze you were hawking out of your den of sin...
 
-douglas stambler

Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote:
Where was the Boise/UI game last year? And the year before?

Phil

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-948197817-1059685301=:17635-- From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Thu Jul 31 22:07:17 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:07:17 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] football game Message-ID: Phil asks where the two previous Boise State-University of Idaho games were held. Last year was in Boise, the year before was here (Pullman). Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From FCS@Moscow.com Thu Jul 31 22:08:24 2003 From: FCS@Moscow.com (Mark Seman) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:08:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] University dollars In-Reply-To: <20030731184647.54818.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tim, Have you been through Grangeville lately? I went through on the way to Elk City for the first time in 5 years and was amazed at the revamped downtown and growth of the area. It will always have a different aura & character than Moscow, but it definitely has community spirit and commitment going for it. More so than I've see evident here. I've seen this in many of the small towns of the Palouse. Maybe because it is more difficult to get this camaraderie from larger groups that Moscow has trouble with it. No doubt Moscow would be worse-off without UI, but the situation could also be improved. There are numerous ways this community could be improved and most of us try to help in our own small (or not-so-small) way. I think Phil makes a legitamate point about the local business impact of University decision makers, deciding on holding game out of the Palouse. Maybe their own agendas get forwarded by doing so, but there are local repercusions as well. Finding the problems are the easy part, I don't have any solutions. I trust thoughtful planning is used to consider multiple options, and decisions are not just self-centered. Mark, *** ***** *** Mark & Heather Seman Full Circle Studios 828 South Washington, Suite B Moscow, Idaho 83843 v 208-883-3276 f 208-883-0112 FCS@Moscow.com -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 11:47 AM To: Cjsnightclub@aol.com Cc: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] University dollars Visionaries, It's amazing, all this constant criticism of the UI's effect on Moscow's economy. Try this. Try envisioning Moscow WITHOUT the U of I. For some reason the word "GRANGEVILLE" comes quickly to mind. Best, TL --- Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: > How the University shows love to this city and > community. > > Are you aware that the football game between Boise > and Idaho is supposed to > "swap" from city to city so each city gets a > financial boost? Are you aware > that Moscow gets "skipped" regularly? Love? Are you > also aware that the game > between UI and WSU is going to be held in Seattle? > Where is the financial love for > the community? Also, both Universities speak of > "hurting financially." > Doesn't common sense say "have the game in town?" > Help the town that is also hurting > financially? Instead - they take the dollars out of > the community. Each > University apparently doesn't care about the > communities for which they are housed. > We all must stop kissing their butts, as their > actions show they do not care > about us. > > Phil > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Thu Jul 31 22:11:25 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:11:25 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Footbal game Message-ID: <146.16688280.2c5adffd@aol.com> --part1_146.16688280.2c5adffd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Douglas, take your meds big boy. The only person(s) that have been tossed out of here relating to football is one of the UI coaches. By the way - we do not sell Gatorade. Phil --part1_146.16688280.2c5adffd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Douglas, take your meds big boy. The only person(s) th= at have been tossed out of here relating to football is one of the UI coache= s.

By the way - we do not sell Gatorade.

Phil --part1_146.16688280.2c5adffd_boundary-- From predator75@moscow.com Thu Jul 31 22:13:12 2003 From: predator75@moscow.com (Dan Carscallen) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:13:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Homosexuality In The Media - Let's Talk About It References: <20030731205938.78997.qmail@web80604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <034d01c357a8$8cd86520$831da13f@MOSCOW1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_034A_01C3576D.E055D880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We did talk about it, Doug. About a month ago when it was "news" DC ------=_NextPart_000_034A_01C3576D.E055D880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We did talk about it, Doug. About a month ago when it was = "news"
 
DC
------=_NextPart_000_034A_01C3576D.E055D880-- From rforce@moscow.com Thu Jul 31 22:19:28 2003 From: rforce@moscow.com (Ron Force) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:19:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Football game In-Reply-To: <38.3bb32643.2c5adc4b@aol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C3576E.C0F979A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last year, Bronco Stadium, the year before, Martin Stadium (painful memories). This year it'll be played in the Kibbie Dome on 9/13 ******************************************** Ron Force rforce@moscow.com Moscow Idaho USA ******************************************** -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Cjsnightclub@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 1:56 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Footbal game Where was the Boise/UI game last year? And the year before? Phil ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C3576E.C0F979A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Last=20 year, Bronco Stadium, the year before, Martin Stadium (painful=20 memories).
 
This=20 year it'll be played in the Kibbie Dome on 9/13
 

********************************************
Ron=20 Force             =  =20   rforce@moscow.com

Moscow Idaho=20 USA
********************************************

=
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of=20 Cjsnightclub@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 1:56=20 PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] = Footbal=20 game

Where was the Boise/UI game last year? = And the year=20 before?

Phil
 ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C3576E.C0F979A0-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 22:19:41 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Homosexuality In The Media - Redux? In-Reply-To: <034d01c357a8$8cd86520$831da13f@MOSCOW1> Message-ID: <20030731211941.89101.qmail@web80604.mail.yahoo.com> --0-617690845-1059686381=:88208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii oh gosh, you know, you're right, Dan - it WAS discussed in length about a month ago, wasn't it - and i believe that everyone's clear on what's right and what's wrong with gay rights activism as a result of that online discussion, right? if i recall correctly, nobody really came out and said anything meaningful, and i think that may be why scott dredge continues to post gay rights news story links on the forum - this forum is afraid to really get in and talk about gay rights and the ups and downs for american society that goes along with gay rights. but you know, dan, i'm so stoned on the pills that dale courtney got for me, that i can't keep track of WHAT day it is... In Christ, Douglas Stambler Dan Carscallen wrote: We did talk about it, Doug. About a month ago when it was "news" DC --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-617690845-1059686381=:88208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
oh gosh, you know, you're right, Dan - it WAS discussed in length about a month ago, wasn't it - and i believe that everyone's clear on what's right and what's wrong with gay rights activism as a result of that online discussion, right?  if i recall correctly, nobody really came out and said anything meaningful, and i think that may be why scott dredge continues to post gay rights news story links on the forum - this forum is afraid to really get in and talk about gay rights and the ups and downs for american society that goes along with gay rights.
 
but you know, dan, i'm so stoned on the pills that dale courtney got for me, that i can't keep track of WHAT day it is...
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler

Dan Carscallen <predator75@moscow.com> wrote:
We did talk about it, Doug. About a month ago when it was "news"
 
DC

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-617690845-1059686381=:88208-- From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Thu Jul 31 22:21:16 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:21:16 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] re: football game Message-ID: <118.2713fdc1.2c5ae24c@aol.com> --part1_118.2713fdc1.2c5ae24c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Visioneers, Yup - could be my mistake. Can someone go back and get a history of where UI/Boise football games were played? Phil --part1_118.2713fdc1.2c5ae24c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Visioneers,

Yup - could be my mistake. Can someone go back and get a history of where UI= /Boise football games were played?

Phil --part1_118.2713fdc1.2c5ae24c_boundary-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 22:25:33 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Football game - Phil's Drug Habits? In-Reply-To: <146.16688280.2c5adffd@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030731212533.13730.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com> --0-349657000-1059686733=:13226 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Aw, Phil - how sweet - all of Moscow is prescribing for me lately...too bad i never even touched a joint in my life, much less some pills... but why don't you get shelley to stop taking the drugs she takes before trying to get the world on the "dale courtney train" to better mental health? is it valium that your wife takes, phil? or do the two of you just ease on back with a little opiate-laced pot once in a while from your supplier(s) at the moscow police department? just a question, not an allegation... boy, i'd sure like to know why CJ's is up for sale...only worth about $50 for the whole vacant lot: and when i say vacant, you KNOW i'm talking about the occupants... why don't you p*ss test yourself and sell it to unsuspecting customers, phil? i hear that the brews you serve suc* anyway, and that that new bar on 6th street near the campus is outselling you every night of the week. take a business class bro, and stop hittin' that hash pipe for a change. In Christ, Douglas Stambler Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: Douglas, take your meds big boy. The only person(s) that have been tossed out of here relating to football is one of the UI coaches. By the way - we do not sell Gatorade. Phil --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-349657000-1059686733=:13226 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Aw, Phil - how sweet - all of Moscow is prescribing for me lately...too bad i never even touched a joint in my life, much less some pills...
 
but why don't you get shelley to stop taking the drugs she takes before trying to get the world on the "dale courtney train" to better mental health?  is it valium that your wife takes, phil?  or do the two of you just ease on back with a little opiate-laced pot once in a while from your supplier(s) at the moscow police department?  just a question, not an allegation...
 
boy, i'd sure like to know why CJ's is up for sale...only worth about $50 for the whole vacant lot: and when i say vacant, you KNOW i'm talking about the occupants...
 
why don't you p*ss test yourself and sell it to unsuspecting customers, phil?  i hear that the brews you serve suc* anyway, and that that new bar on 6th street near the campus is outselling you every night of the week.
 
take a business class bro, and stop hittin' that hash pipe for a change.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler


Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote:
Douglas, take your meds big boy. The only person(s) that have been tossed out of here relating to football is one of the UI coaches.

By the way - we do not sell Gatorade.

Phil

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-349657000-1059686733=:13226-- From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jul 31 22:26:39 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:26:39 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Logical Error! Letter to the Editor: Teacher salary article In-Reply-To: <707BFEC9-C2EF-11D7-8097-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Message-ID: <200307312126.h6VLQwQU027023@whale2.fsr.net> Don Kaag answered my question off-list and has kindly agreed to allow me to post my reply on-list. I wrote: >> Recall, we base teacher pay on a) years taught and b) college credits >> completed. But: >> >> a. Research shows that only 4-5 years of teacher experience >> contributes to student learning. Experience beyond that has no payoff >> except in pay. >> b. Pedagogy credits don't contribute to learning. Advanced degrees are >> productive only at the secondary level and in the subject being taught. >> Credits are used mostly to climb the salary grid. >> >> Because there's no easy way to get rid of a teacher once he/she has >> "tenure" >> (what is it now, Don Kaag, the 5-year point?), they are along for the >> E-ticket ride to the end. Don replied: > The tenure point is three years. Now, this is a two-fold can of worms. First, tenure for a school teacher after only 3 years. I don't think *anyone* would argue that the first 3 years demonstrates someone's lifelong ability to teach. Second, once tenured, it is *extremely* difficult to get rid of someone. Incompetence is especially difficult to document and pursue; as is lack of motivation. > And tenure, as it is at the > university level, is essential to academic freedom, to > protect teachers from arbitrary firing by administrators > and/or unfair witch hunts by parents. I have a major problem with thinking that a 1st grade teacher needs "academic freedom". The whole purpose of "Academic Freedom" is to allow "freedom in research and in the publication of the results" (quoting the AAUP by-laws) and "when they speak or write as citizens, they should be free from institutional censorship or discipline." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how this at *all* applies to primary school teachers. There are processes that are available to everyone in the rest of the working world to protect them from arbitrary firings and discrimination. IMO, tenure for government school teachers (especially at the 3 year-point!) is dysfunctional. I'll have more to say about this later, but all of the things that I've addressed are not in any way peculiar to MSD. This is a dysfunction with government education in general. Best, Dale Best, Dale From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Thu Jul 31 22:28:42 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:28:42 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] re: football game Message-ID: To the best of this Moscow old-timer's knowledge, the Idaho-Boise State series has always alternated yearly between Boise and Moscow (or Martin Stadium). I do remember a few years ago a very short-lived discussion about playing them in Boise all the time because of the population, but it went nowhere fast. Carl Westberg Jr. >From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] re: football game >Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:21:16 EDT > >Visioneers, > >Yup - could be my mistake. Can someone go back and get a history of where >UI/Boise football games were played? > >Phil _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Thu Jul 31 22:36:32 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:36:32 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] poor lost soul Message-ID: --part1_b8.455b565a.2c5ae5e0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Douglas, after all I have done for you. And you call yourself a Prophet? A man of God? Not my God! Shelley Roderick --part1_b8.455b565a.2c5ae5e0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Douglas, after all I have done for you.

And you call yourself a Prophet? A man of God? Not my God!

Shelley Roderick --part1_b8.455b565a.2c5ae5e0_boundary-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 22:39:39 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Re: poor lost souls drinking at CJ's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030731213939.98494.qmail@web80604.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1108728424-1059687579=:98168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii you offered me a job - i came up from lewiston - then you wouldn't let me work at CJ's - and you bought me a bus ticket to Boise, telling me not to come back. you did THAT for ME? who are you kidding? Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: Douglas, after all I have done for you. And you call yourself a Prophet? A man of God? Not my God! Shelley Roderick --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1108728424-1059687579=:98168 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
you offered me a job - i came up from lewiston - then you wouldn't let me work at CJ's - and you bought me a bus ticket to Boise, telling me not to come back.
 
you did THAT for ME?  who are you kidding?

Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote:
Douglas, after all I have done for you.

And you call yourself a Prophet? A man of God? Not my God!

Shelley Roderick

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1108728424-1059687579=:98168-- From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jul 31 22:42:09 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:42:09 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] School Budget In-Reply-To: <169.22173239.2c5ab3f3@aol.com> Message-ID: <200307312142.h6VLgSQU056888@whale2.fsr.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0143_01C35771.EC1361C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CJ, This is an interesting question. Actually, from the 2000 census, there were 24,572 people total in the Moscow area. Here's the breakdown: Under 5 years 1,244 5.1 5 to 9 years 1,157 4.7 10 to 14 years 1,096 4.5 15 to 19 years 3,284 13.4 20 to 24 years 5,387 21.9 25 to 34 years 3,893 15.8 35 to 44 years 2,653 10.8 45 to 54 years 2,533 10.3 55 to 59 years 853 3.5 60 to 64 years 511 2.1 65 to 74 years 819 3.3 75 to 84 years 737 3.0 85 years and over 405 1.6 If you assume that only people 20-up pay property taxes (I think that assumption is very generous in a college town), then that leaves 17,791 tax payers to pay the MSD bill. The number is likely closer to 12,000; but I'll go with the larger figure. The MSD school budget was $22.3M. But part of that was paid for by local property taxes, part by the State (that's still us!), and part by the feds (that's still us!). The actual breakdown for 2002 was: Feds: 7.62% State: 46.98% Other: 6.93% Local: 38.47% So, if you examine that breakdown, then the average taxpayer in Moscow pays $1,253 just to MSD. I just wish that everyone had to go to MSD once a year and hand them that much cold-hard cash. I think people would be more sensitive to the costs if they knew how much they were typically paying. Best, Dale _____ From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Cjsnightclub@aol.com Sent: Thursday, 31 July, 2003 11:04 To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] School Budget Dear Don: These are approximate numbers: School Budget: $16,000,000 Current approximate population of Moscow: 16,000 (this is every man, woman and child) Does not take a math major to see it is a thousand a head. There surely isn't 16,000 workers in Moscow. Take that to New Jersey numbers. Phil ------=_NextPart_000_0143_01C35771.EC1361C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
CJ,

This is an interesting question.=20 Actually, from the 2000 census, there were 24,572 people total = in the=20 Moscow area.
 
Here's the breakdown:
Under 5 years 1,244 5.1
5 to 9 years 1,157 4.7
10 to 14 years 1,096 4.5
15 to 19 years 3,284 13.4
20 to 24 years 5,387 21.9
25 to 34 years 3,893 15.8
35 to 44 years 2,653 10.8
45 to 54 years 2,533 10.3
55 to 59 years 853 3.5
60 to 64 years 511 2.1
65 to 74 years 819 3.3
75 to 84 years 737 3.0
85 years and over 405 1.6
 
If you=20 assume that only people 20-up pay property taxes (I think that = assumption is=20 very generous in a college town), then that leaves 17,791 tax payers to = pay the=20 MSD bill. The number is likely closer to 12,000; but I'll go with the = larger=20 figure.
 
The=20 MSD school budget was $22.3M. But part of that was paid for by local = property=20 taxes, part by the State (that's still us!), and part by the feds = (that's=20 still us!).
 
The=20 actual breakdown for 2002 was:
    Feds: = 7.62%
    State: = 46.98%
    Other: = 6.93%
    Local: = 38.47%
 
So, if=20 you examine that breakdown, then the average taxpayer in = Moscow pays=20 $1,253 just to MSD.
 
I just=20 wish that everyone had to go to MSD once a year and hand them = that much=20 cold-hard cash. I think people would be more sensitive to the costs if = they knew=20 how much they were typically paying.
 
Best,
Dale
 

From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of=20 Cjsnightclub@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, 31 July, 2003=20 11:04
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: = [Vision2020]=20 School Budget

Dear Don:

These are approximate=20 numbers:
School Budget: $16,000,000
Current approximate = population=20 of Moscow: 16,000 (this is every man, woman and child)

Does not = take a=20 math major to see it is a thousand a head. There surely isn't 16,000 = workers=20 in Moscow. Take that to New Jersey=20 numbers.

Phil
 ------=_NextPart_000_0143_01C35771.EC1361C0-- From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Thu Jul 31 23:01:24 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:01:24 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Re: poor lost souls Message-ID: <1a8.17b72308.2c5aebb4@aol.com> --part1_1a8.17b72308.2c5aebb4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Douglas writes: > you offered me a job - i came up from lewiston - then you wouldn't let me > work at CJ's - and you bought me a bus ticket to Boise, telling me not to come > back. > > you did THAT for ME? who are you kidding? Douglas, I am not going to waste Vision 20/20's time on you. This is the only thing I will say on this forum. Email me privately. 1) I never offered you a job. Pull up from your memory banks the truth. I was (past tense) thinking about (way past tense) trying to help you as I told you I would ask Phil to see if he has any work for you. We did not at the time have anything for you to do which I told you. 2) I bought you a ONE WAY bus ticket to Boise so you could "expand" your teaching prophecy to a much larger congregation. I NEVER TOLD YOU NOT TO COME BACK! Just wishful thinking on my part. I even gave you cash. You are spiteful (not in my bible) of everyone who has tried to help you. You judge (again only one person allowed to judge according to my bible) and say hurtful, mean untruths to benefit whom? You? None of what you do, or think you represent is anywhere close to my God. Go play elsewhere! Sincerely, Shelley --part1_1a8.17b72308.2c5aebb4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Douglas writes:

you offered me a job - i came u= p from lewiston - then you wouldn't let me work at CJ's - and you bought me=20= a bus ticket to Boise, telling me not to come back.
 
you did THAT for ME?  who are you kidding?



Douglas,

I am not going to waste Vision 20/20's time on you. This is the only thing I= will say on this forum. Email me privately.

1) I never offered you a job. Pull up from your memory banks the trut= h. I was (past tense) thinking about (way past tense) trying to help = you as I told you I would ask Phil to see if he has any work for you. We did= not at the time have anything for you to do which I told you.

2) I bought you a ONE WAY bus ticket to Boise so you could "expand" your tea= ching prophecy to a much larger congregation. I NEVER TOLD YOU NOT TO COME B= ACK!  Just wishful thinking on my part. I even gave you cash.

You are spiteful (not in my bible) of everyone who has tried to help you. Yo= u judge (again only one person allowed to judge according to my bible) and s= ay hurtful, mean untruths to benefit whom? You? None of what you do, or thin= k you represent is anywhere close to my God. Go play elsewhere!

Sincerely,
Shelley



 --part1_1a8.17b72308.2c5aebb4_boundary-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 23:04:59 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Should Sojourner's Alliance Be Shut Down? Message-ID: <20030731220459.63634.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1639845939-1059689099=:61078 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Should Sojourner's Alliance Be Shut Down? According to a neighbor on that same street, the property there is in violation of several building codes. What's more is that SA doesn't seem to be serving the community when it indiscriminately dumps people out on the street, who still want to stay in Moscow. Several complaints have also been made about the current staff members, one of whom is Gabe Webb, who totally mismanaged the Wise Buys Thrift Store until it had to be shut down. What IS going on over at SAlliance? Well, several of the people who had been kicked out of SA, have turned to gang-related crime, and SA should be held responsible for not doing their part to keep these hoods off the streets. Perhaps it's Sojourner's anti-Christian/pro-homosexual agenda and their inability to keep drugs out of the dormitory area that causes the most concern for all who stay there. After all, it is FEDERALLY sponsored and as a government-sponsored program and facility, it is required by law to tolerate all lifestyles, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIAN LIFESTYLE. Again, should Sojourner's Alliance be shut down? In Christ, Douglas Stambler (The Palouse - ID/WA) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1639845939-1059689099=:61078 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Should Sojourner's Alliance Be Shut Down?
 
According to a neighbor on that same street, the property there is in violation of several building codes.  What's more is that SA doesn't seem to be serving the community when it indiscriminately dumps people out on the street, who still want to stay in Moscow.  Several complaints have also been made about the current staff members, one of whom is Gabe Webb, who totally mismanaged the Wise Buys Thrift Store until it had to be shut down.  What IS going on over at SAlliance?
 
Well, several of the people who had been kicked out of SA, have turned to gang-related crime, and SA should be held responsible for not doing their part to keep these hoods off the streets.  Perhaps it's Sojourner's anti-Christian/pro-homosexual agenda and their inability to keep drugs out of the dormitory area that causes the most concern for all who stay there.  After all, it is FEDERALLY sponsored and as a government-sponsored program and facility, it is required by law to tolerate all lifestyles, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIAN LIFESTYLE.
 
Again, should Sojourner's Alliance be shut down?
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
(The Palouse - ID/WA)
 

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1639845939-1059689099=:61078-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 23:13:56 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Re: poor lost souls (ownership of CJ's) In-Reply-To: <1a8.17b72308.2c5aebb4@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030731221356.14865.qmail@web80604.mail.yahoo.com> --0-2048793169-1059689636=:12890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii nope! i won't leave. you guys still don't get it: latah county will be returned to its rightful owners: the land will oust you, Shelley. i stay til my work is done. you stay until you realize that today is not like yesterday, or last year, or five years ago...and that the tomorrow of Moscow is never guaranteed by its past: God is going to correct what's wrong in Moscow, by cutting off the gas supply, the food supply, everything necessary to make life comfortable for cats like you and your husband. i'm telling you, my august predictions will come true. and as for you offering me a job, BOY i'm glad we got that one cleared up! looks like i'm WRONG AGAIN! just like always, right Shelley? right Phil? right Dale? right anyone else who is stubborn enough at this point not to admit that the Palouse will not ever be the same as the nostalgic way you all seem to think of it: IT'S OVER, FOLKS. time is up - God is intervening in a very strong way. YOU ARE ALL BASICALLY FADING INTO THE PAST OF THIS REGION...an error on the landscape that started with the homesteaders, and never should have been. and as for God, Shelley - again, i might urge you to quit the barbituates: even for a week or two, so that at least Phil and your daughter might have a decent conversation with you for a change... In Christ, Douglas Stambler Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: Douglas writes: you offered me a job - i came up from lewiston - then you wouldn't let me work at CJ's - and you bought me a bus ticket to Boise, telling me not to come back. you did THAT for ME? who are you kidding? Douglas, I am not going to waste Vision 20/20's time on you. This is the only thing I will say on this forum. Email me privately. 1) I never offered you a job. Pull up from your memory banks the truth. I was (past tense) thinking about (way past tense) trying to help you as I told you I would ask Phil to see if he has any work for you. We did not at the time have anything for you to do which I told you. 2) I bought you a ONE WAY bus ticket to Boise so you could "expand" your teaching prophecy to a much larger congregation. I NEVER TOLD YOU NOT TO COME BACK! Just wishful thinking on my part. I even gave you cash. You are spiteful (not in my bible) of everyone who has tried to help you. You judge (again only one person allowed to judge according to my bible) and say hurtful, mean untruths to benefit whom? You? None of what you do, or think you represent is anywhere close to my God. Go play elsewhere! Sincerely, Shelley --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2048793169-1059689636=:12890 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
nope!  i won't leave.  you guys still don't get it: latah county will be returned to its rightful owners: the land will oust you, Shelley.  i stay til my work is done.  you stay until you realize that today is not like yesterday, or last year, or five years ago...and that the tomorrow of Moscow is never guaranteed by its past: God is going to correct what's wrong in Moscow, by cutting off the gas supply, the food supply, everything necessary to make life comfortable for cats like you and your husband.
 
i'm telling you, my august predictions will come true.  and as for you offering me a job, BOY i'm glad we got that one cleared up!  looks like i'm WRONG AGAIN!  just like always, right Shelley?  right Phil?  right Dale?  right anyone else who is stubborn enough at this point not to admit that the Palouse will not ever be the same as the nostalgic way you all seem to think of it: IT'S OVER, FOLKS.  time is up - God is intervening in a very strong way.
 
YOU ARE ALL BASICALLY FADING INTO THE PAST OF THIS REGION...an error on the landscape that started with the homesteaders, and never should have been.
 
and as for God, Shelley - again, i might urge you to quit the barbituates: even for a week or two, so that at least Phil and your daughter might have a decent conversation with you for a change...
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler

Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote:
Douglas writes:

you offered me a job - i came up from lewiston - then you wouldn't let me work at CJ's - and you bought me a bus ticket to Boise, telling me not to come back.
 
you did THAT for ME?  who are you kidding?



Douglas,

I am not going to waste Vision 20/20's time on you. This is the only thing I will say on this forum. Email me privately.

1) I never offered you a job. Pull up from your memory banks the truth. I was (past tense) thinking about (way past tense) trying to help you as I told ! you I would ask Phil to see if he has any work for you. We did not at the time have anything for you to do which I told you.

2) I bought you a ONE WAY bus ticket to Boise so you could "expand" your teaching prophecy to a much larger congregation. I NEVER TOLD YOU NOT TO COME BACK!  Just wishful thinking on my part. I even gave you cash.

You are spiteful (not in my bible) of everyone who has tried to help you. You judge (again only one person allowed to judge according to my bible) and say hurtful, mean untruths to benefit whom? You? None of what you do, or think you represent is anywhere close to my God. Go play elsewhere!

Sincerely,
Shelley



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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2048793169-1059689636=:12890-- From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 23:18:41 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] THE DIRT ON PHIL!! - AT LAST... Message-ID: <20030731221841.36071.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> --0-701750076-1059689921=:35955 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii HEY FOLKS - LOOK AT THE E-MAIL THAT SOMEONE JUST SENT TO ME! THEY ASKED ME NOT TO PUBLISH IT, BUT I CANNOT RESIST. CHECK THIS OUT!! In Christ, Douglas Stambler ***********************************************************Douglas,Just a little background, the Alehouse on 6th street that is outselling CJs is managed by a man that Phil used to be in business with. Phil owned 51%, Jeff (the manager of the Alehouse)owned 49%. The business was called "The Spaghetti Station" or something like that. Jeff was young and naive and Phil ended up stealing all Jeff's assetts and then locking him out of the business. Jeff tried to sue, but could not afford the cost of the attorneys (who told him it was an awfully long line to stand in to sue Phil). Phil pulled this trick on several others that have worked out of CJs. You are lucky to have not worked there. And again, be glad you never worked for Phil. He is an evil bastard. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-701750076-1059689921=:35955 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii 
HEY FOLKS - LOOK AT THE E-MAIL THAT SOMEONE JUST SENT TO ME!  THEY ASKED ME NOT TO PUBLISH IT, BUT I CANNOT RESIST.  CHECK THIS OUT!!
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
***********************************************************
Douglas,

Just a little background, the Alehouse on 6th street that is outselling 
CJs is managed by a man that Phil used to be in business with.  Phil 
owned 51%, Jeff (the manager of the Alehouse)owned 49%.  The business was 
called "The Spaghetti Station" or something like that.  Jeff was young 
and naive and Phil ended up stealing all Jeff's assetts and then 
locking him out of the business.  Jeff tried to sue, but could not afford the 
cost of the attorneys (who told him it was an awfully long line to 
stand in to sue Phil).  Phil pulled this trick on several others that have 
worked out of CJs.  You are lucky to have not worked there.
 

And again, be glad you never worked for Phil.  He is an evil bastard.

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-701750076-1059689921=:35955-- From stin1624@uidaho.edu Thu Jul 31 23:25:57 2003 From: stin1624@uidaho.edu (Tami Stinebaugh) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:25:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] mars Message-ID: I had this information forwarded to me and thought I'd spread it along for those who haven't heard it yet. http://www.snopes.com/science/mars.asp Tami Stinebaugh The Red Planet is about to be spectacular! This month and next, Earth is catching up with Mars in an encounter that will culminate in the closest approach between the two planets in recorded history. The next time Mars may come this close is in 2287. Due to the way Jupiter's gravity tugs on Mars and perturbs its orbit, astronomers can only be certain that Mars has not come this close to Earth in the Last 5,000 years, but it may be as long as 60,000 years before it happens again. The encounter will culminate on August 27th when Mars comes to within 34,649,589 miles of Earth and will be (next to the moon) the brightest object in the night sky. It will attain a magnitude of -2.9 and will appear 25.11 arc seconds wide. At a modest 75-power magnification Mars will look as large as the full moon to the naked eye. Mars will be easy to spot. At the beginning of August it will rise in the east at 10p.m. and reach its azimuth at about 3 a.m. By the end of August when the two planets are closest, Mars will rise at nightfall and reach its highest point in the sky at 12:30a.m. That's pretty convenient to see something that no human being has seen in recorded history. So, mark your calendar at the beginning of August to see Mars grow progressively brighter and brighter throughout the month. Share this with your children and grandchildren. NO ONE ALIVE TODAY WILL EVER SEE THIS AGAIN From ccm_moscow@yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 23:28:42 2003 From: ccm_moscow@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Should Sojourner's Alliance Be Shut Down? In-Reply-To: <154.225e59d8.2c5aeea3@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030731222842.39896.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1778570630-1059690522=:38643 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks for taking the bait, Shelley. I was waiting for someone to ask. Yes, I stayed at Sojourner's Alliance last year for about 3+ weeks, and then I left because a guy there had Hepatitis C, and wanted everyone to eat off the same food dishes with him. I later saw him as a cook(!) at a local nursing home, where a roommate and I went to volunteer for Thanksgiving. Then, this year, after I came from my CJ's-sponsored trip to Boise (during which time I launched a 200+ e-mail campaign against Bob Hoover, who resigned shortly after I e-mailed people all over the state), I was blessed when Gabe Webb allowed me back into Sojourners Alliance. Of course, I needed a place to stay, but the main reason for going back to SAlliance, was to get the dirt on the place, so that I can help get it shut down. In the end, I made it impossible for Sojourner's to have me around, because I WOULD NOT SUBMIT to their pro-homosexual agenda that they force everyone who stays there to partake in. Like I've said many, many times before: I don't care what people say about me. I have not fallen on my face, not once since becoming a Christian. I don't really care if people think I'm insane, a loser, a con artist, a fool, not a Christian: Y'all needed some spiritual growth here: you know that Moscow has been spiritually dormant for years, and I'm just part of what God is doing to "rebirth" the place. There are others who don't necessarily agree with my style, who were sent here also by God (pastors in Moscow, no less), who know that a revival in Moscow is going to happen, no matter what fools like you try to do to lead people to the evils so willingly offered at places like CJ's. Anyway, Foo On You. K? In Christ, Douglas Stambler Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote: Did Sojourners ever give YOU a place to stay? Shelley --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1778570630-1059690522=:38643 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Thanks for taking the bait, Shelley.  I was waiting for someone to ask.  Yes, I stayed at Sojourner's Alliance last year for about 3+ weeks, and then I left because a guy there had Hepatitis C, and wanted everyone to eat off the same food dishes with him.  I later saw him as a cook(!) at a local nursing home, where a roommate and I went to volunteer for Thanksgiving.
 
Then, this year, after I came from my CJ's-sponsored trip to Boise (during which time I launched a 200+ e-mail campaign against Bob Hoover, who resigned shortly after I e-mailed people all over the state), I was blessed when Gabe Webb allowed me back into Sojourners Alliance.  Of course, I needed a place to stay, but the main reason for going back to SAlliance, was to get the dirt on the place, so that I can help get it shut down.  In the end, I made it impossible for Sojourner's to have me around, because I WOULD NOT SUBMIT to their pro-homosexual agenda that they force everyone who stays there to partake in.
 
Like I've said many, many times before: I don't care what people say about me.  I have not fallen on my face, not once since becoming a Christian.  I don't really care if people think I'm insane, a loser, a con artist, a fool, not a Christian: Y'all needed some spiritual growth here: you know that Moscow has been spiritually dormant for years, and I'm just part of what God is doing to "rebirth" the place.  There are others who don't necessarily agree with my style, who were sent here also by God (pastors in Moscow, no less), who know that a revival in Moscow is going to happen, no matter what fools like you try to do to lead people to the evils so willingly offered at places like CJ's.
 
Anyway, Foo On You.
 
K?
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler

Cjsnightclub@aol.com wrote:
Did Sojourners ever give YOU a place to stay?

Shelley

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