[Vision2020] Patriot Act

Wed, 26 Feb 2003 22:05:11 -0800

Ted:

Unfortunately George Bernard Shaw was correct when he said, "Hegel was right
when he said that we learn from history that man can never learn anything
from history."  By the way, what Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel said was, "We
learn from history that we do not learn from history."

Evidently repetition does not make it any better.

Regards,
Brad Neuman

-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On
Behalf Of Ted Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 9:42 PM
To: taze_fulford@hotmail.com; ddarrel_douglas@hotmail.com
Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Patriot Act

Taze, et. al.

I thought your quote was quite appropriate considering current events.   I 
do not see the logic in interpreting the posting of this quote as an attempt

to make a well developed argument that fails to make its case.  It seems a 
relevant quote from history that suggests that the methods of control of 
public opinion by our government might be the same here in the USA right now

as some of the methods used by the Nazi's, hardly a far fetched proposition.

  Whether or not we are being manipulated in this manner is a very important

question to ask.

"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. "

Now who said that?  I've heard it before, yet forget the source.

Ted

>From: "Charles Fulford" <taze_fulford@hotmail.com>
>To: "David Douglas" <ddarrel_douglas@hotmail.com>, <vision2020@moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Patriot Act
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 21:37:15 -0800
>
>I was simply drawing a parallel to events that are taking place today.
>Sorry there was no thesis and footnotes to go along with the quote.
>People should be able to decide for themselves if they believe this
>is a just war or not. I just happen to think that its about natural
>resources and power. The simple relationship is that leaders do think
>about how to bend the public opinion and do it everyday in endless
>ways. Why is our government above using the same techniques on the
>American people? The methods used by the Nazis are the same Americans
>used to slaughter and put Native Americans on reservations, cause upheaval
>in Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Argentina, Panama, Iran, Afghanistan,

>etc.
>Were those just wars as well? What makes this any different? Because all of

>a
>sudden after 11 years its now time to deal with Saddam. Our country has 
>plenty
>of blood on its hands as the result of greed and keeping the status quo.
>I for one, am tired of it.
>
>So to those that this fallacious appeal to emotion offended, I apologize. 
>And as
>for not making the case, it wasn't meant to do that, only to give a 
>historical
>statement of a man in a position to provide a common enemy. It was only 
>meant
>to get people to think, to not take the drivel we're given by the mass 
>media
>and government as the whole truth, and to educate themselves about the
>choices we make as a government by the people and for the people. Not the
>choices we make for Exxon, Haliburton, Northup Drummond, Lockheed Martin,
>and the others that will profit from war.
>
>Sincerely
>Taze Fulford
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: David Douglas
>Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 4:10 PM
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Cc: taze_fulford@hotmail.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Patriot Act
>
>Visionaries:
>
>A more complete quote, sans elipsis, can be found here:
>
>http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm  (bottom of page)
>
>For the most part the ommissions don't change the overall thrust, but the 
>whole story is better than a quote--ex nihilo.
>
>However, I find this type of posting a fallacious appeal to emotion more 
>than anything else.
>
>Just because a wicked man like Goering ate (at least) 3 meals a day doesn't

>mean we should start fasting.  Just because he had a low view of the masses

>and was casual about war, doesn't mean that fighting a war is wrong (didn't

>_America_ fight the Germans in World _War_ II) or that all leaders are 
>manipulating the masses.
>
>Is the point that this war is wrong, and that our leaders are budding 
>Goerings, and that the masses are simpletons being led along, or what?  
>These, and other possible points, may well be true, but simply posting this

>quotation "doesn't make the case".
>
>David Douglas
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Charles Fulford" <taze_fulford@hotmail.com>
> >To: "Brad Neuman" <bradneuman@moscow.com>,   "'Carl Westberg'" 
><carlwestberg846@hotmail.com>, <vision2020@moscow.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Patriot Act
> >Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:36:04 -0800
> >
> >I got this quote from a friend today and thought it
> >would be a good one to share with everyone.
> >
> >"Of course the people don't want war... That is understood. But... it's 
>always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a

>fascist dictatorship, a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or 
>no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. 
>That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and 
>denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to 
>danger. It works the same in any country."
> >
> >- Hermann Goering at the Nuremberg trials, 1946
> >from "Nuremberg Diary," by G. M. Gilbert
> >
> >
> >Taze Fulford
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Charles Fulford" <taze_fulford@hotmail.com>
> >To: "Brad Neuman" <bradneuman@moscow.com>,   "'Carl Westberg'" 
><carlwestberg846@hotmail.com>, <vision2020@moscow.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Patriot Act
> >Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:36:04 -0800
> >
> >I got this quote from a friend today and thought it
> >would be a good one to share with everyone.
> >
> >"Of course the people don't want war... That is understood. But... it's 
>always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a

>fascist dictatorship, a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or 
>no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. 
>That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and 
>denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to 
>danger. It works the same in any country."
> >
> >- Hermann Goering at the Nuremberg trials, 1946
> >from "Nuremberg Diary," by G. M. Gilbert
> >
> >
> >Taze Fulford
> >

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