[Vision2020] Re: Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage
Donovan Arnold
donovanarnold@hotmail.com
Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:30:12 -0700
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<P>Ralph, Mr. Wilson, etc. . .,</P></DIV>
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<P>I don't think you will ever through to Mr. Wilson. Using logic to get through to him is like using a wet noodle to get through a steel door. </P>
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<P>If he wants to believe that the state should enforce the law so that all marriages fit his preferences that is his right to do so. I find that him proclaiming only his marriage is the only one that the state should endorse and all others are immoral ironic at best and hypocritical at worst.</P>
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<P>If marriage is a religious issue, why do they allow people that are not Christian to get married? Or why do they allow people that are of different faiths to get married? Would it not be confusing to a child to have one parent be atheist, another Muslim, living in a society of Christians?</P>
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<P>Why do they allow mail-order-brides? Is this not immoral? Or how about the marriage of a 80-year-old man to a 18-year-old girl? I don't see these Moralists fighting against these behaviors either.</P>
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<P>When you boil it down, it comes to the government saying you can marry anyone on the basis of gender only. Not on the basis of if you love them.</P>
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<P>Every argument they make for marriage to only be between a man and woman can be broken down to tiny pieces that wash away easily in logic and reason.</P>
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<P>Argument 1) They can't reproduce. </P>
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<P>This means that the moment that a women stops menstruating that the man should dump his wife? And with modern technology same sex partners now can reproduce, only now in a controlled manner that makes sure the child will be well taken care of.</P>
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<P>Argument 2) They can't really love each other. </P>
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<P>Well, this is impossible to prove or disprove to any degree of absolute certainty. Further, I don't see people attempting to break up Hollywood marriages, or rich men marrying young little Playboy models. This boils down to the government trying to get people to prove that they REALLY do love their partner. </P>
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<P>Argument 3) The parts don't fit. </P>
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<P>Well, in this case, let us hire doctors to make sure they do with heterosexual male and female couples too. Where is the push for this?</P>
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<P>Argument 4) It is against the Bible. </P>
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<P>Gee, so is hating people, should we make that illegal too?</P>
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<P>Argument 5) It will lead to polygamy, bestiality, and pedophilia. </P>
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<P>This is the opposite direction of where gay marriage is going. Polygamy, is a violation of the rights of women, bestiality is a violation of animal rights, and pedophilia is a violation of the rights of children.</P>
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<P>Anymore people that would like to add more arguments please feel free to.</P>
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<P>Thanks!</P>
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<P>Donovan J Arnold <BR><BR></P>
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<DIV></DIV>>From: Ralph Nielsen <NIELSEN@UIDAHO.EDU>
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<DIV></DIV>>To: vision2020@moscow.com
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<DIV></DIV>>Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage
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<DIV></DIV>>Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:17:50 -0700
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<DIV></DIV>>RALPH NIELSEN Mon Aug 4
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<DIV></DIV>> Thank you, Doug, for further illustration of not only how illogical
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<DIV></DIV>>you are but also how disingenuous you can be. I said nothing about
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<DIV></DIV>>"Christian morality," whatever that might be, but pointed out that
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<DIV></DIV>>AS FAR AS THE STATE IS CONCERNED marriage is a secular legal
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<DIV></DIV>>contract.
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<DIV></DIV>> If Doug and other ecclesiastical poobahs wish to regulate marriage
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<DIV></DIV>>according to their alleged divine strictures, they are perfectly
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<DIV></DIV>>free to preach it to their followers. Likewise, the state also makes
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<DIV></DIV>>provision for divorce, whether some poobahs consider it to be moral
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<DIV></DIV>>or not. Some folks believe marriage is wrong, and some folks believe
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<DIV></DIV>>divorce is a sin, but that is of no concern to the state.
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<DIV></DIV>> I said nothing about sexual liberation but it seems to loom large
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<DIV></DIV>>in Doug's vocabulary. Neither do I promote polygamy, as Doug
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<DIV></DIV>>implies. In fact, many biblical heroes had more than one wife, e.g.,
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<DIV></DIV>>Gideon, who had 70 sons "for he had many wives" (Judges 8:30).
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<DIV></DIV>> I think same-sex marriage is a good idea because it would place
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<DIV></DIV>>those couples on the same legal basis as bisexual couples. And don't
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<DIV></DIV>>forget that they would be under the same rules if they wanted to get
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<DIV></DIV>>divorced. We have laws to protect social stability and I think
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<DIV></DIV>>same-sex marriage will do just that.
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<DIV></DIV>>>From: Douglas <DOUGWILS@MOSCOW.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>>>Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 8:27:13 AM US/Pacific
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<DIV></DIV>>>To: vision2020@moscow.com
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<DIV></DIV>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage
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<DIV></DIV>>>Far from this being a demonstration of how illogical I am, it is
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<DIV></DIV>>>actually a demonstration of whether or not ethical relativists have
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<DIV></DIV>>>the courage of their convictions. If we reject the Christian
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<DIV></DIV>>>morality that marriage consists of one man, one woman, one time,
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<DIV></DIV>>>and we base this rejection on the fact that marriage is now only a
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<DIV></DIV>>>"secular legal contract," then on what basis, Ralph, do we limit
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<DIV></DIV>>>secular legal contract to just two parties? We were mistaken, it
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<DIV></DIV>>>appears, in limiting marriage to heteros. Why are we not also
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<DIV></DIV>>>mistaken in limiting it to couples? I urge you, Ralph, to stop
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<DIV></DIV>>>trying to impede sexual liberation. The last thing we need around
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<DIV></DIV>>>here is atheistic bluestocking wowserism.
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<DIV></DIV>>>RALPH NIELSEN 02:18 PM 8/2/2003 -0700, wrote:
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<DIV></DIV>>>> Doug Wilson doesn't seem to want to recognize the
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<DIV></DIV>>>>difference between church and state, so he gives us a homily about
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<DIV></DIV>>>>hypocrisy and sin instead of recognizing that marriage, as far as
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<DIV></DIV>>>>the state is concerned, is not a sacred institution, but a secular
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<DIV></DIV>>>>legal contract binding on the two parties concerned. He
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<DIV></DIV>>>>illogically equates monogamy with polygamy and, even more
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<DIV></DIV>>>>illogically, pretends that polygamy is a matter of how many people
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<DIV></DIV>>>>can physically fit into a bedroom.
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<DIV></DIV>>>> Doug concludes his diatribe by equating marriage laws
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<DIV></DIV>>>>with building codes. Anyone who hasn't been indoctrinated with
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<DIV></DIV>>>>Wilsonian "logic" can readily observe how totally illogical he is.
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<DIV></DIV>>>> Ralph Nielsen
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>From: Douglas <DOUGWILS@MOSCOW.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 8:48:50 AM US/Pacific
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>To: vision2020@moscow.com
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>There is an important difference between sexual hypocrisy, which
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>our nation has in spades, and which practices privately what it
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>condemns publicly, and the tragic way of removing that hypocrisy,
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>which is to bring yourself to approve the sin formally. Hypocrisy
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>is the tribute that vice pays to virtue, and we always need to
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>remember there are two ways to get out of a double standard. One
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>is to repent of the sin, and the other is to drop the pretence of
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>virtue. We are in the course of pursuing the latter, and it will
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>not bring enlightenment.
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>If it is true that marriage is nothing more than a "tax break,"
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>and is no longer a sacred institution, then we are not just
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>talking about homosexual unions. We are also talking about
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>polygamy, as long as more than two can physically fit into the
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>privacy of the bedroom. What kind of sexual unions will have to
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>be permitted as soon as the courts learn the rudiments of logic?
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>He who says A must say B.
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>And while we are on the subject of keeping the government out of
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>the bedroom, why is it, when I built my house, the government
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>wanted to tell me how far apart the sheetrock screws had to be in
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>the bedroom, how the electric outlets had to be placed, how big
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>the windows had to be, and so on, ad nauseam. Government out of
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<DIV></DIV>>>>>the bedroom, aye.
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