[EstGift] Spouses as Joint Grantors
Pearl, Nicole
npearl at mwe.com
Wed Jul 29 22:31:08 PDT 2020
While I may be in the minority here, I still see a distinction between a revocable trust converting into two (or more) separate trusts upon the death of one of the grantors and an irrevocable joint grantor trust being severed.
In the former case, the joint trust is fully revocable until one spouse passes away. There is no real “contribution” that scrambles the egg because both spouses can revoke the trust and get the assets back. Instead, the contribution to the new trusts happens only at the first spouse’s death (and not when CP is contributed to a joint revocable trust). This is also when the perpetuities period is measured from.
When a joint revocable trust divides at the first death, it is clear that you don’t have trusts with multiple grantors. The Survivor’s Trust would be funded exclusively with property contributed by the surviving spouse, and because the surviving spouse has a continuing power to revoke that trust, it will be treated as a grantor trust as to the surviving spouse.
The other marital or bypass trusts are funded exclusively with property contributed by the deceased spouse (e.g. the deceased spouse’s half of the community). These were not trusts that received property from two people, only to be severed after the fact. Instead, the initial contribution occurred at the deceased spouse’s death.
By contrast, when two people contribute property to an irrevocable trust, it is no longer their property. The egg is scrambled at that point, and I don’t think it can be unscrambled.
NICOLE M. PEARL
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On Jul 29, 2020, at 4:43 PM, Gorin, Steven B. <SGORIN at thompsoncoburn.com> wrote:
[ External Email ]
Please see below and carefully read Jim Spica’s argument, to which the most recent email in the trail refers.
Steve
From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG> On Behalf Of Gorin, Steven B.
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 3:31 PM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG
Subject: Dividing Trusts with Two Grantors
I combined all email replies to keep this one discussion and changed the subject line to match this thread.
In almost all cases, either the trust agreement or applicable state law will allow divisions and will allow non-pro rata distributions, the same way the divisions are made in community property trusts when the first spouse dies. It doesn’t matter whether the trust division is by will or other instrument – it’s still a division of property contributed by both spouses to one trust.
Consistent with Jim’s email, I don’t see a distinction between the federal income tax treatment of dividing at death community property, which is as much cream-in-the-coffee as anything else, compared with another trust.
As to Mickey’s suggestion that statutory partition at death solves the problem, I don’t see anything in Reg. § 1.671-2 that somehow transforms who is the grantor of what portion by reason of a partition by death.
Overall, Reg. § 1.671-2 discusses portions but does not describe how to track them through the system. Reg. § 1.1001-1(h) allows quite a bit of latitude in severances (whether or not a qualified GST severance). I don’t know why pick-and-choose fractional funding can’t be used to determine who has the state law status as settlor for divided trusts and have the income tax treatment under Reg. § 1.671-2 follow that (so long as not a step transaction).
Steve
======================
Steven B. Gorin
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From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>> On Behalf Of Mickey Davis
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 10:10 AM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>
Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [actec-prac] [EXT MAIL] Re: [actec-prac] Transfer for value to trust
Death works a partition of the community, so that solves the post death problem. Harder is when one spouse seeks to withdraw “his half” from a joint revocable trust containing community property. As Al Golden has often pointed out, when that happens, the withdrawn “half” is likely community property, and the “half” remaining is likely community property.
Mickey
From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>> On Behalf Of James Spica
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 10:05 AM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>
Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [actec-prac] [EXT MAIL] Re: [actec-prac] Transfer for value to trust
Yes, if that’s what it does: petitio principii. But in distributing the assets of a divided trust (in a UTC state), the trustee can make non-pro-rata distributions. See Unif. Trust Code § 816(22) (Unif. Law Comm’n 2010). And no doubt there’ll be circumstances is which parsing the res—whether based on strict historical segregation of accounts, i.e., “tracking,” or a priori reasoning—into proper subsets, at least some of which can plausibly be attributed to one or the other settlor (I do not say, “to one rather than the other”), will not impair the rights of the beneficiaries or the achievement of the purposes of the divided trust (within the meaning of UTC section 417). Why should we assume that the discrete “portions” of a multi-settlor irrevocable trust posited by the UTC’s definition of the term ‘settlor’ (in UTC section 103(15)) can provide a state-law basis for creditor claims (see id. § 505(a)(2) (creditors of settlor can reach maximum amount trustee can distribute to settlor)) but not for trust division?
James P. Spica
Attorney at Law
Chalgian & Tripp Law Offices, PLLC
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From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>> On Behalf Of Handler, David A.
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 10:00 AM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>
Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [actec-prac] [EXT MAIL] Re: [actec-prac] Transfer for value to trust
No. Community property is different. At death each spouse is the owner of half the value of the assets. In most if not all cp states the spouses can agree (often in a joint rev trust) to divide on an asset by asset basis versus each getting 50% of all assets. That is based on statute.
David A. Handler, P.C.
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From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>> On Behalf Of Jonathan Blattmachr
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:57 AM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>
Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [actec-prac] [EXT MAIL] Re: [actec-prac] Transfer for value to trust
No. The typical joint Rev trust, in my experience, says that when the first spouse dies (let's assume its H) his half of the CP assets and his separate property is disposed of essentially as they would be by his Will--typically, a CST, reverse QTIP, residuary QTIP and the survivor's half of the CP and her separate property goes into a rev trust under the JRT for her for life giving her a lifetime GPOA. Either the JRT or state law will allow a "pick and choose" funding of the deceased spouse's share of the CP. Jonathan
On Mar 31, 2020, at 9:26 AM, Gorin, Steven B. <SGORIN at thompsoncoburn.com<mailto:SGORIN at thompsoncoburn.com>> wrote:
So, Jonathan and David, when a community property trust is divided post-mortem, you think that the decedent is the grantor of ½ of the surviving spouse’s revocable trust, and the surviving spouse is the grantor of ½ of the bypass and marital trusts?
Steve
From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>> On Behalf Of Jonathan Blattmachr
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 7:44 AM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>
Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [actec-prac] [EXT MAIL] Re: [actec-prac] Transfer for value to trust
I don't see why it can't be so divided. However, I'm not sure each divided share would be deemed for state law or tax purposes as having only one grantor. Rather, its like Ed Slott's "cream in the coffee" analogy for types of assets" contributed to an IRA. Some may take the position that each separate trusts consisting half of assets contributed by each grantor of the original trust, Perhaps, if the trust directs the trustee to keep separate records of which spouse contributed what (and what became of it) and that the assets contributed by each spouse shall be used to funded each trust, that would be respected. In other words, the assets would be held in solido but remain separate. Jonathan
________________________________
From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>> on behalf of Gorin, Steven B. <SGORIN at THOMPSONCOBURN.COM<mailto:SGORIN at THOMPSONCOBURN.COM>>
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 11:13 PM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG> <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>>
Subject: Re: [actec-prac] EXTERNAL: Re: [actec-prac] [EXT MAIL] Re: [actec-prac] Transfer for value to trust
Les, when a grantor dies, are you saying that the decedent is automatically the grantor of ½ of every downstream trust?
If not, why can’t a trust be divided during life as well as at death?
Steve
From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>> On Behalf Of Les Raatz
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 8:53 PM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>
Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [actec-prac] [EXT MAIL] Re: [actec-prac] Transfer for value to trust
Steve, the community property rights of spouses should only apply to the interests in the trust they retain. If the trust is wholly revocable, then they retain the entirety and therefore all can be community. If they retain no rights, then there should be no community either. At least in Arizona, if they retain, say, a GRAT payment right, then that retained right can be community. So the analogy may be limited. Les
From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>> On Behalf Of Gorin, Steven B.
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 6:24 PM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>
Subject: Re: [actec-prac] EXTERNAL: Re: [actec-prac] [EXT MAIL] Re: [actec-prac] Transfer for value to trust
Frank’s facts appear to be separate transfers of stock to the trust – presumably closely-held. Presumably, those stock certificates could be traced.
Beyond that, regarding the reinvestments, why can’t the parties agree to divide the trust and agree that each settlor has state law rights as settlor as to his or her half? Community property trusts do this routinely when one spouse dies.
Steve
======================
Steven B. Gorin
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From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>> On Behalf Of Handler, David A.
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 6:45 PM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>
Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [actec-prac] [EXT MAIL] Re: [actec-prac] Transfer for value to trust
I don’t think so. The only reason you can divide a mixed inclusion trust for GST purposes is because of a specific statute allowing severances.
Perhaps unless you can track the assets each contributed and all of the income and reinvestment from those assets…
David A. Handler, P.C.
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From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>> On Behalf Of Les Raatz
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 6:24 PM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [actec-prac] EXTERNAL: Re: [actec-prac] [EXT MAIL] Re: [actec-prac] Transfer for value to trust
Can you “unmix” multiple grantors of an otherwise irrevocable trust by division, so each 100% grantor of one trust? Les
From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>> On Behalf Of Howardzaritsky at earthlink.net<mailto:Howardzaritsky at earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 2:44 PM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [actec-prac] [EXT MAIL] Re: [actec-prac] Transfer for value to trust
Dear All
Any chance that H, W and the Cs have a family partnership?
Regards,
Howard
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 30, 2020, at 5:41 PM, Gorin, Steven B. <SGORIN at thompsoncoburn.com<mailto:SGORIN at thompsoncoburn.com>> wrote:
No, husband cannot purchase a policy on his wife’s life from son and fall within an exception to the transfer for value rules.
You need to divide the trust 1/2 into a separate trust deemed owned 100% by husband and 1/2 into a separate trust deemed owned 100% by wife.
The grantor trust deemed owned 100% by husband buys the policy on husband's life, and the grantor trust deemed owned 100% by wife buys the policy on wife's life.
Steve
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-----Original Message-----
From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>> On Behalf Of Demmerly, Frank
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 3:05 PM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>
Subject: Re: [EXT MAIL] Re: [actec-prac] Transfer for value to trust
This is a purchase of 1/2 of the policy from child by the 1/ of the trust of which the insured is the grantor— a purchase by the insured, AND
A purchase of 1/2 of the policy from child by the 1/2 of the trust of which the insured’s spouse is the purchaser—-a purchase from the child by the insureds spouse
So, can husband purchase a policy on his wife’s life from son and fall within an exception to the transfer for value rules
Frank R. Demmerly, Jr., Esq.
Archer & Greiner P.C.
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On Mar 30, 2020, at 3:44 PM, Gorin, Steven B. <SGORIN at thompsoncoburn.com<mailto:SGORIN at thompsoncoburn.com>> wrote:
See my response to Ann’s email that this authority does not apply.
Steve
From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>> On Behalf Of Matthew F. Kadish
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 1:50 PM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Transfer for value to trust
Steve –
To build on Ed’s comment, the reasoning in PLR 201423009 may be useful.
-- Matt
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From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG%3cmailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>>> On Behalf Of Edwin Morrow
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 2:31 PM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG%3cmailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>>
Subject: Re: [actec-prac] Transfer for value to trust
I’ve never looked into it but if TFV under section 101 excludes situations where transferee keeps carry over basis and 1041b says that spouse purchases are ignored and basis carries over then why wouldn’t a purchase by a spouse or trust deemed owned by a spouse qualify, since carry over basis applies?
Ed Morrow
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On Mar 30, 2020, at 1:41 PM, Gorin, Steven B. <SGORIN at thompsoncoburn.com<mailto:SGORIN at thompsoncoburn.com<mailto:SGORIN at thompsoncoburn.com%3cmailto:SGORIN at thompsoncoburn.com>>> wrote:
Citation please?
Steve
======================
Steven B. Gorin
sgorin at thompsoncoburn.com<mailto:sgorin at thompsoncoburn.com<mailto:sgorin at thompsoncoburn.com%3cmailto:sgorin at thompsoncoburn.com>>
Phone: 314.552.6151
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From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG%3cmailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>>> On Behalf Of Lesk, Ann B.
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:16 PM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG%3cmailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>>
Subject: Re: Transfer for value to trust
If husband and wife file joint tax returns, then there is an exception to the transfer for value rules for a transfer to the wife (or a grantor trust with respect to the wife) by the husband.
Ann B. Lesk
Of Counsel
Ann.Lesk at friedfrank.com<mailto:Ann.Lesk at friedfrank.com<mailto:Ann.Lesk at friedfrank.com%3cmailto:Ann.Lesk at friedfrank.com>> | Tel: +1 212 859 8113 | Mobile: +1 908 487 5757
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-----Original Message-----
From: ACTEC Practice List <actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG%3cmailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>>> On Behalf Of Demmerly, Frank
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:59 PM
To: actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG<mailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG%3cmailto:actec-prac at ACTEC.ORG>>
Subject: [actec-prac] Transfer for value to trust
Husband transfers stock to trust
Wife transfers stock to same trust
They both retain the right to substitute property of equivalent value
Son wants to sell a life insurance policy on Husband’s life to trust
Daughter wants to sell a life insurance policy on wife’s life to trust,
Will the transfer for value rules not apply if Husband and wife each are the grantor of 1/2 of the trust ?
Frank R. Demmerly, Jr., Esq.
Archer & Greiner P.C.
One Centennial Square
Haddonfield, NJ 08033
856-354-3100
101 Carnegie Center
3rd Floor, Suite 300
Princeton, NJ 08540
609-580-3700
fdemmerly at archerlaw.com<mailto:fdemmerly at archerlaw.com<mailto:fdemmerly at archerlaw.com%3cmailto:fdemmerly at archerlaw.com>>
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